'A Network Under Scrutiny' - 1991.

An episode of 'First Sight' which was shown in 1991.

[@tbrevink8319]

In The Netherlands we are currently also driving around with 45+ year old trains but mostly newer. As long as it's maintained properly and reliable there is no problem there.

[@seansands424]

Some times an old train is better than no train

[@True_NOON]

There was a hondekop there, but diffrence is that it was maintained, and kept , and wasnt there tosalvage costs but to be there, and serve the people that were needing transit from schipol to where they needed

[@Thomas_TdK]

45+? 30 years old you mean. Icmm and dzz are the oldest. They go out of service now and in a few years. So which trains are 45+ years old?

[@RC-pj1pr]

1991: “Still running trains that are 30 years old”.... Networkers still running in 2020!

[@soundseeker63]

But to be fair, the Networkers were and still are decent trains. Compared with customers in the north, who until a few months ago were still rattling around on 35 year old Pacers that were literally disintegrating (and were crap even when new) plus the sprinters are just as old and not much better and will be with us for some time yet!

[@binarysignals9593]

Networkers were only 1 year old when this was shown and their life is 30 years. It seems they will be replqced with 378s.

[@MrJimheeren]

Old trains don’t have to be a problem if the trains are good and reliable and are well maintained the Dutch M’64 was on the rails for more then 50 years but when there were built they were ahead of its time, central locking, modern safety cap, aircon and heating, great dampers. When they left Service in 2014 there were still pretty decent trains. Compared to let say a Pacer those trains were a disaster the moment they hit the rails

[@davidhealy4534]

@@binarysignals9593 they were introduced in 1992 in The Thames valley

[@danwoodhouse9290]

they were talking about the slam door trains

[@soundseeker63]

For all of the many, many complaints about BR, what they managed to do with so little cash was actually quite impressive. Nowadays, with the privatised system, we pay in something like 4X the amount in government support to supports all those private TOCs, and lets not even mention the vast debts that Network Rail has racked up! Clearly the nationalised system is the way to go in terms of financial efficiency. But as with anything else in life, you get what you pay for!

[@Lalleighette]

Couldn't agree more with your first point. Where I lived at the time, we were still using the old first generation diesel units by the end of the 80s, and thanks to BR, we had them replaced with the Sprinters, which most of us thought were far more comfortable to journey into Birmingham on.

[@dat581]

Actually you are quite incorrect on why the railways cost so much more after privatisation. The real reason is much of the underinvestment in the railways since the war has been made up for since 1994. Many other factors also increase the cost of the railways and most can be traced back to government interference. Interestingly the railways are now far more reliable, run far more trains of a far higher quality but all people do is say BR was better. Rubbish!

[@souvikrc4499]

The same points also apply to Amtrak here in the U.S.

[@souvikrc4499]

@@dat581 The problem is that the passengers have to pay one of the most expensive railfares in Europe, all while the rail network actually received more subsidies than during the BR days.

[@axethepenguin]

Isn’t Network Rail in public hands though

[@Sameoldfitup]

“Has it ever struck you that life is all memory, except for the one present moment that goes by you so quick you hardly catch it going?”― Tennessee Williams.

[@cjmillsnun]

"Mid to late 90's before Crossrail." This is how much privatisation has pushed us back. It's now January 2020 and we're still waiting. Thameslink 2000 finally went "live" in 2018

[@tobysummers471]

2022 is the date apparently when Crossrail is due to be finished now !

[@izdatsumcp]

Completely stupid comment. It's the government that is in charge of building new lines, not private companies.

[@Anbregour]

@@izdatsumcp Actually, as someone who works for Network Rail, I can say that you are both correct; the Government has a nasty habit of cutting funding half way into a project combined with privatisation haven driven up construction and maintenance cost significantly. Certainly from a track maintenance point of view, my job is a lot more disjointed and inefficient than it was under BR.

[@izdatsumcp]

@@Anbregour Actually, the government is responsible for them cutting the funding midway through a project. Go figure. That's what happens when you incentivise someone to seek public approval instead of get value for money. If the track and stations were private, private companies would own everything and things wouldn't be disjointed. Government is bad, the private sector is good.

[@Anbregour]

@@izdatsumcp I think you are right about the disjointedness. Either system can work; The States' private system works very well for freight transport, whilst the German state-run system is similarly efficient. I think the issue is that the current system is neither one nor the other and thus there is a whole host of unnecessary complexities.

[@NavigatorBR]

I've been looking for this for years...

[@390h8er]

Many thanks for uploading. I used to watch this frequently but it kept getting taken down. Fingers crossed it stays up.🤞

[@cefnonn]

These old documentaries are a fascinating historical resource.

[@mr8I7]

I'm too young to remember the days of the 'slam door' trains. So it's very cool to see how people would fling the doors open and depart the train whilst it's still moving.

[@hamijohnson1729]

slammers were on the southern region until 2008, i vividly remember taking them as a child around 2005

[@gdwnet]

@@hamijohnson1729 I took them a few times as an adult out of waterloo to Bracknell. a lot more comfy than modern trains.

[@stevedunningduckinggiraffe6296]

Yes, and if you happened to be standing on the platform and were hit by a door it could quite easily kill you! Madness.

[@stefanthesailor967]

Also used to be the case that drunks would open the doors on the wrong side and drop onto the tracks. Saw it happen 4 times.

[@gabrielstirling3207]

I’m only in my 20s and still remember them. This makes me feel terribly ancient.

[@english_electric7125]

Something of note perhaps (Bearing in mind I've only done a very quick comparison). That chart showing the typical cost of an annual ticket for a 100km journey - Germany: £1042 France: £1135 Netherlands: £1157 UK: £2560 Well, I just had a look at the cost of an annual ticket today for Ipswich - London Liverpool St: £6944. Adjusted for inflation, this works out as around £3292 in 1991.

[@stevenbanaan]

6944 pounds is quite a good car, including roadtax and insurance if you ask me.

[@JJVernig]

@@stevenbanaan Yeah, but the railways in the UK are in the good position that driving into London is almost impossible, and with 50-80 pounds a day parking it's still cheaper..

[@stevenbanaan]

@@JJVernig what kind of dystopia is England's capital?

[@Bungle-UK]

Why should the taxpayer subsidise the ticket cost for a rich person to commute into London?

[@cjmillsnun]

@@stevenbanaan But not petrol or parking.

[@paulmiller591]

So much for Crossrail in the late 1990s but at least we are very close to opening now

[@Croydon387]

It’s been opened…. What year are you in

[@stevenbanaan]

1:53 watch carefully, Brits, that train, a Mat '64 ''Apekop/hondekop'', it carries the same legacy as your HST's, it's very important to us and sadly out of service since 2016.

[@Je_Existe]

Same with the ICM

[@stevenbanaan]

@@Je_Existe Yes but the ICM(m) is still in service, the Mat '64 as well as the HST125/Intercity125/Class 43 are both mostly out of service.

[@coastaku1954]

Ontario used that train for it's Northlander Service from Toronto to Cochrane

[@Croydon387]

K O P L O P E R

[@Thomas_TdK]

@@coastaku1954that was a different train

[@robtyman4281]

...this is because the UK had NEVER really invested properly in the railways. We permanently seek the cheapest option, the easiest deal or the 'the most cost efficient over a five year period'. We never think that unlike in politics, you cannot just think in terms of ' the next five years' when it comes to the railways and investing in them. You HAVE to think the next 20, 30, perhaps even 50 years. Afterall, most trains run for around 30 years. So why don't we we think of the railways in general for this time period or lifespan? Successive generations of British politicians have not taken the railways seriously, and have messed around with them, strategically under funded them, and purposefully neglected them. I'm afraid this is the story of Britain's railways basically since 1945. Our politicians have a woeful record (both main parties) when it comes to serious investment that's required in them; and treating them as bring vital for the national economy (as they do in every other European country). Instead, they treat them as an afterthought......any spare money that's not used in road building, then and only then, given over to the railways. Or even worse - as something akin to a running joke.

[@hermanmunster3358]

2022, and there are STILL delays, STILL overcrowded trains, dirty trains, old trains, uncomfortable trains, and all STILL running on a creaking outdated network in some places. So that is some THIRTY YEARS or so later, with very little improvement to speak of. And ticket prices CONTINUE to rise, and the CEO's and shareholders get richer, while the service struggles to give the customer what they deserve.

[@gdwnet]

30 years on and the same promises are being made with no sign of actual improvements.

[@marklee1194]

I used to watch this back in the day.

[@matthew0605]

Ive just watched this film for the first time in August 2023 and im sad how things havent changed much and dare i say it gone backwards . We invented the railways now being used all round the world and once the envy of the world , now the service in this country is poor. Im not a commuter nor do i use the rail network often but i feel very sorry for people who do commute regularly. People have to use the trains to go to work to earn money to live . The ticket prices go up each year and the service gets worse year on year . All you people who commute or use the rail network regularly you have my sympathys. Im an old rail enthusiast myself and as a kid during the 80s used to travel all over the rail network getting my numbers im sad to see the network in such a state . One thing that hasnt changed is the blah blah that politicians splaff about railways and whose fault it is that its in such a diabolical state. Since privatisation all the rail companys just pass the buck .British Railways wasnt great but at least it was answerable to the Government and to BR management . My rants over now, but i hope to see an improvement in my lifetime but times running out, im 54 .

[@True_NOON]

To be honest, the state that NSE and BR as a whole was in would be to be a person, roughed up on [Mexican sugar] , cold , paranoid , with only scraps eaten for the last 20 days, pushing a giant cube up a rough and difficult hill

[@TM-bk3ok]

Man, in the US I’d pay for this

[@randomtux1234]

19:10 automatic braking system "the british rail are still testing the system" BR have this system up and running long before this doc

[@ChrisDavis-nl7yu]

Just spilled my drink......Crossrail!!!???!!!!

[@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45]

"Still running trains that are more than 30 years old" Wait, this ISN'T about Amtrak?

[@Andrewjg_89]

Our network is always in scrutiny. It’s always been like it. Britain’s railways isn’t efficient, reliable and there’s always been lots of disruptions, delays, cancellations and strikes. That’s how the railways are in the UK. Mostly in England, Wales and Scotland.

[@JJVernig]

It's maybe even more efficient, but it always had to operate to a shoestring budget. So they never could do it on the same standard.

[@a_eastcoast.pacer1]

It's hilarious how in 30 years, the government and other firms have built a few miles tunnel under London. Late 2021, Still not opened! 😂😂😂

[@Croydon387]

ITS OPENED WHAT TIMELINE ARE YOU IN?????

[@puma2334]

@@Croydon387 2021

[@martinbitter4162]

Dutch railways system is still one of the best in Europe.

[@richardwills-woodward5340]

We have invested vast sums now and things have got better, but comparing the Netherlands, a country which has a smaller population the London metropolitan area, is a bit harsh! That said, I remember those days and yes, they were bad unless you were on Intercity. Intercity was a shining light and ran services better than those on the Continent for the most part, which people always forget. We also had the second fastest timetables in the world for Intercity and only slipping to fifth by nearly the year 2000, and all without any true high speed track! The engineers did a great job with very limited resources.

[@JJVernig]

That's true. The BR did their jobs rather good, knowing their limitations in budgets. There are another things to consider in the grand scheme of things: London doesn't have a comparable (or good) road network. So the there is a captive audience in the South-east at least. Furthermore the network was from the Victorian era, and upgrades are very expensive. The narrative in the story isn't that BR is bad per se, but that the trainsystem didn't get the investment of support it got in other European countries. I think the Dutch railways weren't (and aren't) especially efficient. The overhead is rather great, and the division between tracks and trains makes it worse. The Intercity's aren't super, and the quality of the service isn't that good at the moment. But, a big but, there is always a very high emphasis on time driving! This is key because the integrating between other forms of transportation, and the changing of trains.

[@MrJimheeren]

We are a small country but not that small, in 1992 the Dutch population was 15 million people almost twice the population of London today. Plus people move all over the place not just from their town to London like in England. But even today British rail (or its privatized counterparts) can’t compare itself with its European counterparts. My girlfriend used to study in Exeter and mad lad that I am I traveled there by train. Compared to France Germany or the Netherlands trains are expensive don’t run often and are still diesel electric by some reason in 2015. France has its TGV, RER, Germany ICE, and S Bahn all over the country, the Dutch a train network with a 98% reliability. England has some fast diesels and trains that still run on third rail and tickets that are twice the price what they cost in Europe

[@MrPeperidge]

I like to see people giving credit where credit is due. Shows a bit of realism. Not everything has to be miserable and remembered with grief.

[@Ass_Burgers_Syndrome]

Ah there's "Two Jags" Prescott.

[@SGMiner21]

10:46 bit optimistic that, try early 20s

[@TTE441]

- 30 years and almost nothing has changed 😆

[@PeteS_1994]

Less fatal accidents at least

[@Scotford_Maconochie]

30 years earlier BR was the envy of the world.

[@JohnDoe-gc1pm]

It was crap - still running steam in the 1960s

[@Bungle-UK]

BR was never the envy of the world.

[@astrabelmont]

Bloke in 1991 saying "We always seem to get the old trains; what no one else wants..." whilst sat in a 2+2 Intercity Air-conditioned BR Mk.IId carriage. What a dick.

[@MrJimheeren]

Maybe he was talking about the other old trainstock. Class 101 was still running during that time plus a lot of English trains suck compared to its European counterparts. Clapdoors, wooden carriages, hardly any driver protection, those seats don’t look so comfortable either

[@bazzacuda_]

The Eastern Main Line has always got cascaded stock, usually from the WCML. At that time it had Mk2 aircon stock pulled by Class 86 locos that were freed up by the introduction of Class 90s on the West Coast and DBSOs from Scotland. So I can see his point. However, the Mk2 aircon stock was decent, lots of people would love to have them back instead of listening to a diesel under them for hours. The class 86 was perfectly satisfactory for the Eastern, which is a mostly flat 100mph line.

[@astrabelmont]

@@MrJimheeren wooden carriages? Yes before WW2.

[@astrabelmont]

@@bazzacuda_ um, not at all. Eastern Region enjoyed 125mph HSTs whilst the WCML was stuck with 100mph C86s and 110mph C87s. When WCML got C90s to release the C86s, the Eastern got 225kph C91s, again, for a second time/generation, far superior to what was on WCML.

[@Martindyna]

@@astrabelmont He was talking about the Eastern Main line (Great Eastern Mainline actually) not the ECML.

[@Househead1200]

All the shite rolling stock is seen as new fangled and exciting once it gets cascaded onto the Bristol-Weymouth route….

[@bayorame6967]

Good video

[@marktucker208]

30 years later and.........😂

[@coastaku1954]

Sure it may not be the best service in the world... but Network SouthEast and Intercity have probably the best liveries ever fitted to a train ever. Intercity looks very classy in a 1980's sort of way, it has aged pretty well actually, and NSE just looks cool, I love the colours and I gush every time I see a train in NSE livery for sale on Train Simulator

[@PeteS_1994]

Yeah I miss the NSE livery although it goes against people with sight issues as the doors don't have a contrasting colour.

[@coastaku1954]

@@PeteS_1994 No train in North America does that so why is it an issue?

[@davidhealy4534]

I remember that Heavy snow.Year I left school.

[@Xgeneration28]

Lol if i remember rightly the Dover priory to London Victoria train wasn't as nice as the Ramsgate to London Victoria train. and it was slow lol

[@conniethomas4753]

Much comfier train to outer Essex to Essex border of London myself i was always pleased to be on a comfy train! More dependable even if looks old Bertha’s

[@theflyingsteamerstoke8534]

The answer was simple then just as much as it is now. Allow the industry to develop it's own far reaching corporate plans entirely based on social needs instead of profit and for the government to give very healthy subsidies according to different sectors and their respective plans. But when you have government officials that are trying to micromanage an entire industry they are not a part of, decade after decade, you end up with such a mountain to climb its likely we will never have the level of service like that seen in Europe and many other parts of the world

[@storiesfromdifferenteras]

Reputation , Profit or not, dirty seats late 2:50 after years of neglect struggling to improve its service and its image 4:26 profit has to come before quality 5:18 lose money 6:46 delayed for hours 7:45 they don't care 8:58 another morning of discomfort 9:34 for some passengers even the brake van is a welcome alternative they pay at least $1,000 a year to make this journey every day 13:00 how important are your customers

[@samstratford8878]

Haha Crossrail will be delivered in late 1990s. Thats hilarious.

[@PeteS_1994]

Would it be as good if it was though?

[@brickleyyard4966]

20 years later still nothing changed so what's the fucking point

[@West_Coast_Mainline]

How wrong they were

[@philipmcdonagh1094]

All the money is going to the shareholders nothing else.Its time the public took it back.

[@robtyman4281]

Yes exactly. Or there's 'not for profit' railways, when any profits made go back into maintaining and improving the network, and the trains.....oh, and into the pocket of those who actually work on the railways - not the pockets of affluent shareholders, many of whom rarely travel by train.

[@Degsie1975]

Network Southeast was eventually turned around just in time for privatisation. Some of it had been modernised with improved infrastructure and rolling stock. Chris Green shown in the video was responsible for a lot of it. He was moved around the various sectors to sort them out. The Thatcher government at the time was blamed for squeezing the railways, with a lot of justification, but BR had been suffering from under investment for decades. Labour governments were responsible for the decline as well. While just trying to keep the unions happy they neglected investment. Only in Britain could the National Grid threatened to cut off BR if they ran longer trains.

[@Bungle-UK]

Name any train company that is making big profits and giving it to shareholders?

[@theghost1653]

Coming from the future cross rail Liverpool Street to Paddington is about to open

[@temslink2000]

lol as a regular user of marylebone when was the last time it got an update oh wait i forgot even now the gov steers money away from erm and now they having to apply for routes into paddington cos BR sold off the goods yard which could have provided more platforms

[@Bungle-UK]

Plenty of the usual “bring it back into public ownership” type comments that fail to see how this is over simplistic and doesn’t offer a real solution. The network as a whole is loss making and always will be. The question then is who makes up the difference to cover the loss making services. The issue BR faced was that, as a state owned industry, it competes with health, education etc for cash. Given that only a tiny minority of the population ever use the railway system, is it reasonable to suggest the taxpayer as a whole should subsidise the system?

[@Bungle-UK]

@Dean F. that may well be the case, but there is no comparison between NI and GB in terms of scale and usage. They are vastly different systems, so it doesn’t follow that what works on one will work on the other.

[@darren2514fv]

TVS regional current affairs

[@StuK323]

I’m only a few minutes in and I really hate Bob Reid

[@freddieellis8449]

Welcome to the consequences of voting Tory….

[@AdamHiley-pj2zn]

Labour did nothing either

[@freddieellis8449]

@@AdamHiley-pj2zn how could they when the Tories had already stripped everything of value away and sold it off??

[@Bungle-UK]

Oh my, the Labour Party never did anything positive for BR….Labour closed more lines and stations than the Conservatives, for example. The current Tory government is spending more on rail that any government since the 1950s.

[@Croydon387]

Tory’s a giant transport-hater

[@Bungle-UK]

@@Croydon387 conveniently forgetting that most Beeching era closures plus the 70s starving of funding happened under Labour. The 1980s saw mass ordering of new units and passenger growth.