A shattered HTML5 game developers DREAM?

[@phat-kid]

heck yeah an orange pixel portal because you have a whole orange pixel universs already. i think that's the way to go and i wish you good luck!

[@orangepixelgames]

Woohoo! 🤘

[@rafaelbarbosa9347]

Hey Pascal, loved the portal idea! My studio thought about doing it as well but we have no idea if it will bring in results or not. Would be awesome if you did a follow up showing the analytics of the games and the portal itself

[@joeldavis8444]

This is a great analysis. I looked into HTML5 games a couple years ago and came to the same conclusion -- demos that upsell to steam, and self-hosting are the best options. The other idea we came up with (but did not try) was "hypercasual spinoffs", extremely simple games (not demos) that share theme/title or characters meant for 3rd party that aren't meant to make money themselves but just bring awareness of the franchise to the hypercasual users at places like poki. Not quite Gunslugs Match3 but sort of. Good luck, I'm eager to see how your html5 experiments play out!

[@phat-kid]

those are excellent points!

[@orangepixelgames]

I thought about those casual spinoffs, but for that I would like to distribute them everywhere, not be locked in by one platform, and also not knowing if they even except the games and subsequent releases

[@piotrszlachciak1172]

I like the portal idea, but I think it can be spiced up with more incentives to actually subscribe / spend money. 1) Team up with other creators so that they also publish their games there. Revshare based on time played 2) Add achievements / completion system similar to UFO 50. That way if players finish a game it would show up as completed and they would have a list of other games they haven't completed yet. 3) To hook people into wanting to complete all games there should be some games that are fully free that you can complete without a sub. That way I have 2/50 completed but to complete my collection I need to sub. 4) Make the portal a meta experience a'la old miniclip with leaderboards, profiles, achievements etc. Then players can also spend money on mtx to upgrade their profiles. 5) Add a pet system where players can purchase account-wide pets that do nothing except follow the player character in every game available on the portal 6) Completing a free game could gift a 1-month sub, provided you add CC details. 7) Completing a paid game could award a possibility to gift a 1-month sub to a friend

[@kh4iron]

Hey Pascal, thanks for the valuable info. Regarding the Poki, I'm not going to defend them, but you have to take into account that they've built quite a big infrastructure, and gathered more the 8 mil players over the years so I would assume even with the 50/50 split they operate on quite low margins. The 3 year exclusivity is totally strange I 100% agree with you. If your platform reaches the point when you'll have such amount of players then the costs for servers and infrastructure will rise by quite a margin so you have to take that into consideration too while building your platform. I can understand that you don't like the ads, but given the amount of how the conversions work you'll need more then 100k people to turn 1000 to subs if you're lucky so discarding ads for casual players who may not become subs you'll simply miss another revenue stream. Casual players really don't mind watching ads. Btw I have totally same idea to build my own portal with my own brain farted experiments, but I'm bussy working for my client so maybe during next year, but I believe having your own stuff is also valid thing to try.

[@OxAA00]

@@kh4iron Not even Steam Takes 50/50 Share and I'd argue that they do a lot more than Poki. It's not that hard to build a hosting platform IMO.

[@kh4iron]

@@OxAA00 well as a developer who released game on Steam I must say, steam does not test your game for the audience, and don't give you tips how to better sell your game. You are given access and that's it. I'm backend dev by trade and maybe I'm still noob, but I must say that building hosting platform that scales for millions of players, and is cost effective is actually super hard.

[@OxAA00]

@@kh4iron I was comparing it to steam and didn't mean it as "everyone can do it". But given the complexity of steam I'd consider Poki less complex than steam and in comparison more "easy".

[@marclurr]

The thing that's most infuriating about the Poki non-negotiable contract is it's just a part of the current trend that puts all the value onto owning the platform and diminishes the value of the content. Netflix, KZbin, Spotify and the worrying new "game subscription services" have all taught users that the content is consumable and not really important. The funny thing is if it wasn't for obliging creators happily handing over the work for nothing those platforms wouldn't have a business. I remember only 8 years ago KZbin ad revenue share income was very fair and there was a period where many people became full time KZbinrs. Then when KZbin decided that they'd reached a critical mass they just unilaterally changed the terms and turned off the money hose. Now that they've effectively killed off the competition they have the creators and the consumers locked in.

[@mandisaw]

This isn't a new phenomenon, it's just that the new-generation of creators don't know enough history, and generally lack business sense as well. The other modern media industries already went through this phase of creator exploitation in the US - movies, radio, and television all had their versions (Studio "Golden era", Payola scandal in radio, Big 3 TV networks). Games have even done this a few times before, first with arcades, then paying for shelf space at retail stores, then Flash portals and early mobile (Nokia & Blackberry era). Part of why you used to need a publisher was to negotiate better contract terms, and navigate the business minefield (or help pay the bribes!). Those who don't learn the history of their industry, or are too caught up in "passion" to read contracts or understand the hard numbers, are doomed to be screwed by it :(

[@trankhanh945]

So what platforms do you think are emerging? Which industries are currently attracting early bird cash flow?

[@marclurr]

@@trankhanh945 TBH I'm not really someone with their finger on the pulse so I can't really say anything intelligent on that. If you find out let me in on it though :p

[@oleksandr.kryvonos]

I like your approach for new ideas, I like that you take a bold step of creating your own portal!

[@orangepixelgames]

The work on the portal has begun, let's see if I get to finish it at some point tho 😅

[@lucasirondesouzacamargo1540]

I respect your effort to not say they are exploiting the developers beyond currently market's reasonability

[@prustk]

I think your website supported by patreon access is a brilliant idea! The thing is, you need quite broad audience there as I believe. That's why games as a service like kind of settlers online work good for this model as you have long commited community for such type of games. I just don't know how it would work for single-player games. That would be my worry here.

[@orangepixelgames]

Totally agree.. and I can only find out by giving it a try. It would also be cool to have something like a 'Heroes of Loot rpg' type game that builds a following online.. so many dreams!

[@boukew]

Exciting developments! The allure of your own platform is there for devs and players. No idea either how to approach though.

[@orangepixelgames]

It probably won't be as easy as 'build it and they will come' 😜

[@AndreaDoimo]

Great video! I like when you dig on such details.

[@orangepixelgames]

😎

[@OxAA00]

I really like the demo idea! Maybe if you manage to grow your youtube channel you can combine every video with a link to updates on your demos so that people know that a new video might mean new and interesting gameplay. Maybe even if you're titles are unfinished you can give the community a demo to playtest and involve them a bit more. Also there could be patreon included to because you'd kind of shared your whole process of making games.

[@OxAA00]

The subscription model of Sokpop Games is interesting

[@orangepixelgames]

It would indeed make it easy to have playable demos and prototypes playable for people instead of handing out uncompleted game zip files that remain somewhere on the internet for ever 😁

[@animanaut]

Companies like attlassian monetize their software two ways : '... as a service' hosted by them or '... install on premise' hosted on your own infrastructure( own == customer i mean). Why not monetize the actual platform itself? The second option might be a good starting point. The only questionmark for me though are hosting costs. Not sure what hosting/caching static files costs nowadays, but it was a concern a decade ago for hosting you own pictures (pre instagram i mean). For games that are redownloaded each time that might become a factor.

[@dancingdoormanable]

From a marketing perspective having something to check out on your website is great otherwise it's just a glorified business card. It a way of communicating with your audience and the player profiles serve as an email list with extra features. Retaining players might be difficult, but leader boards, game discussions and other social things might help. Replay focused games with procedural level generation are a great fit for such a site. The sites focus is distinct from other sites like Poky or Kongregate where people land on by accident to pass the time with a game and then move on or a store like steam where people buy something then drop into the game. It seems a lot like groups on discord, but with more control and more effort by the developer.

[@mandisaw]

Marketing yes, subscription & retention no. Forums and such require moderating, and a subscription model would have the same need to be "fed" with new content as a video-type Patreon. A site full of demos is a great idea though, and you're right about collecting player contact info to build a mailing list - that's the real gold!

[@NOAHGAMES-q9w]

Others have mentioned it, but teaming up with other creators would be very helpful and make it a win-win for everyone. How do you then not become mini-Steam or Poki, is whole another question...

[@langlearnkorean8774]

Are you sure you understood the exclusivity part correctly? I think they probably mean 3 years exclusivity for the web version which I don't think is too bad since there really aren't many comparable web portals anyway. There are many, many, many poki games that are on other non web platforms which is why I feel like maybe you might've misunderstood the exclusivity. Even if it is just web exclusivity that still is pretty unexpected though. I have researched web gamedev a lot and never seen anyone mention that before when talking about poki. Although now that I think of it the poki gamedev content creators I follow don't release on other web platforms.

[@RealPeoplePerson]

You're correct - the exclusivity is for the web. A representative mentioned earlier in the year that they also have a non-exclusive agreement where they pay a licensing fee. In this case they don't do user acquisition or full QA, though.

[@orangepixelgames]

Yes I fully understood that. But exclusivity even just for the H5 version wouldn't work for me because I want my existing games to work as promotional games for my brand and PC/console/mobile releases. So I want to spread them out wherever possible.

[@denkkab1366]

​@@orangepixelgames this part could have been stated more clearly in the video though. As a game dev, it makes a huge difference whether the exclusivity is for all versions or the web version. Thanks for all your content!

[@orangepixelgames]

@denkkab1366 Perhaps, but the game talks about H5 games.. not the other releases. So in my head it made sense that it was just about those H5 games 😉 Maybe people should just tune into my head and not my videos! Now there's a technology idea!

[@aleksandarbaranji8769]

@@RealPeoplePerson Is there a chance you could send a link to when that was said by their representative. Is there anything else known? Like what price ranges can you expect for a non-exclusive? I mean that was a pretty popular model back in the day with Flash, and some portals like Armor Games I think still do it. Might be a good way to fund continuation of development mid-project when you get a demo ready maybe.

[@KWART_O_MANIA]

Ik vind het idee van een eigen platform geweldig, maar ik zie ook de nadelen. De kans dat je snel een hitgame uitbrengt, is klein, omdat er geen algoritme is dat zo’n game naar een groot publiek verspreidt. Misschien via het algoritme van KZbin, maar dat lijkt me onwaarschijnlijk. KZbin geeft namelijk vooral voorrang aan de grotere economische belangen van Alphabet, dat uiteindelijk een marketingbedrijf is. Ik ben bang dat ze eenmansbedrijven niet snel zullen stimuleren, omdat ze geen geld aan jou verdienen. Je hebt gelijk dat het vroeger normaler was om op het internet je eigen afzetmarkt te creëren, en misschien is nu de tijd om dat weer te doen als onderdeel van een soort 2.0 countercultuur. Blijf vooral je gedachten hierover met ons delen!

[@orangepixelgames]

Kans op hitgames is toch klein 😁 maar dit zou ook meer een toevoeging zijn en niet de enige release platform. De exclusieve portal games zouden deel zijn van mijn KZbin videos en kleine mini games zijn..

[@KWART_O_MANIA]

@@orangepixelgames Klinkt interessant hoor! Als het eenmaal werkt heb je iets moois in handen

[@codecareers6953]

I don't get how you shipped all your Java games over to javascript and html - from your html engine video it sounded like you didn't use any transpiler to reuse the java code? How did you do it so quickly....

[@orangepixelgames]

Game logic doesn't change much between language's. So 'rewriting' code is only about changing language specific things and the differences between language's these days is very small. Most work was getting a framework/base engine working. Now that that's done it's just grinding through game logic for a few days and a new game is ported 😎

[@codecareers6953]

​@@orangepixelgames Interesting, how long does it take to convert a game on average (relative to the number of lines of code you need to convert of course)?

[@orangepixelgames]

@@codecareers6953 I did a video recently where I ported Snake Core in 4 days -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnOwoaGMlNqeacU (shows you a bit of the process needed). I now also ported a more recent game: Gauntlet of Power which took me a little over a week (but it's a lot bigger game code-wise). So on average a week of just hammering out the code/translation and then squashing bugs :)

[@me_apps]

Add stripe integration for your website. They have low fees.

[@orangepixelgames]

Stripe is one option, Patreon is another one also because they are an established brand for 'creative supporters'.

[@TackerTacker]

I agree with you so much, HTML5 is great tech, it's so low friction for users and the games can run on all their devices, but monetization is abysmal, there is almost nothing that makes sense from a developers point of view. For years I'm trying to get itchio to implement better monetization options for web games, but they won't listen. I would actually like to simply sell web games for a fixed price, but itch wont do it. At least you have all your games for other platforms already, so you need to convert it to HTML5. For someone like me who develops in HTML5 it's even more absurd, I need to put in the effort of exporting to all these platforms like mobile/Win/Mac/Linux from HTML5, with some; often barely working wrappers, to give the user a less accessible version of my game that only runs on that one platform. Have you thought about fixed pricing for html5 games? The unique selling point for users would be that they pay once and have their games available on every device.

[@TackerTacker]

Also have you looked into PWA functionality? It allows for a native app experience for HTML5 games without much extra work.

[@orangepixelgames]

Sadly it feels like this monetization issue has been around for well over a decade now. Somebody needs to figure this out for H5 developers! 😁

[@spirobel2.0]

just use stripe payment links you can get it done in 5 minutes. no need to overcomplicate things

[@duncanharris-l1b]

For these exclusively contracts, can you just rename your h5 games something like metal slugs crazy or metal slugs pokie? If you build your own site allow other devs to release theirs as well.

[@theartworkhub]

Too bad on what happened with Poki. For me the 50% thing in Poki was pretty okay in my situation for someone who is living in a 3rd world country, my first game in it’s first 3 months was earning roughly 34$ a day which is quite a lot for my economy here. (for reference, the minimum daily wag e here is 9$ a day.) What I can suggest is focus moer on your steam games, but on your “rest” or “burnt out” phases, why not cret small mini games and submit it on poki?

[@captainnoyaux]

what did you release to compare ?

[@yasserlatreche5594]

well, you might be right at some point, but the problem is nothing is guaranteed, it all depends on the Platform whether they accept your work or not! that's the big disadvantage for my opinion! time wasted is money..

[@mandisaw]

Cost of living differences are a big piece of the "puzzle". Your results are a very successful game in web-terms, but that's barely lunch money where I am. If it was consistent across all his games, then maybe it'd make a decent supplement to normal releases, but I don't see how the return-on-investment for labor would work.

[@orangepixelgames]

I can see it working for you for sure. But where I live it wouldn't be best use of my time not even if it's mini game projects. But besides that, I just don't think the agreement they have is fair for developers taking all the risks and doing all the work.

[@jasonl9266]

Have you tried Famobi ?

[@orangepixelgames]

No..

[@jasonl9266]

@orangepixelgames you might be in for a surprise ! You can sign-up as developer and html5 game affiliate/ publisher . And it's all free ! Good luck and than k me later 😂

[@liquidik]

I believe Poki exclusivity is only for web platforms, not for pc, mobile, console. To be honest I would treat it as a way to give new life to old games and have another income. They do have the audience numbers and that usually turns into a decent revenue.

[@orangepixelgames]

They also have a very particular audience (I think pre teen). And they are 'trained' into this hyper casual game model with a very short attention span. Not a great fit for my existing games. And creating games specifically for that audience at 50% rev and 100% risk and exclusivity just doesn't sound appealing to me. 😏

[@theartworkhub]

@@orangepixelgames This, every time I playtest a new game in poki, the amount of players just trying to play the game play another game is a lot, by a lot I mean out of 100 playtest around 70 of them play less than 3 minutes. And you're right, the kind of game you're releasing isn't really what appeals in this platform.

[@SirArtanis7]

It kinda sounds like maybe ads would work, not something obnoxious but a banner or something

[@aggoserinn]

Adblockers

[@SirArtanis7]

@aggoserinn yea i figured adblockers would be an issue. I wasn't sure if there would a just enough margin where there's just enough people not using it to justify expenses. Like asking first thing someone goes in "please turn off you adblocker" would probably help with returning players

[@orangepixelgames]

Ad revenue requires a LOT of players and game time. Otherwise it's just cents at this scale.

[@TYNEPUNK]

yeh patreon sounds like the best idea to me !

[@orangepixelgames]

Same!

[@me_apps]

At least you got a reply;)

[@orangepixelgames]

Haha yeah I know a few developers that didn't even get replies

[@mrnormal7554]

Mobile is saturated, but still is more rewarding, I don't know, just my intuition. I think it needs a good amount for marketing. But you got an advantage of a community though...!

[@GGeloRob]

So html5 means you don't need to port games to systems that have a web browser?

[@AndreaDoimo]

yep

[@orangepixelgames]

In Theory

[@gbeebe]

🥵 Pascal has handcuffs. 🤫

[@orangepixelgames]

Doesn't everybody? 🥸

[@tonybarnes2920]

So many people are hobbyists and don't really understand the things you have to do when this is your profession. People tell me I should make videos, but I'll just point them to you, Pascal, you've got a lot covered.

[@orangepixelgames]

Yup! There's more to this business then just making games! Sadly 😁

[@whiitehead]

I think that mobi games is making a mistake here. HTML5 games are not really in the eye of the indie game space and your channel is actually quite influential to indie game creators. I feel like if a company were to provide good terms and not make you be exclusive and instead just provide a really good dev experience that makes game devs want to use the site. And then cater their platform to indie game creators it could be huge. Also, nobody is going exclusive with steam unless it's a AAA backroom deal. I think this is a pretty untapped market. Also, short cheap games have historically had a tough time on steam because they just get returned. I think it's better now but still tough to get the playtime metrics that steam looks for. I know itch is this but it doesnt have an IAP api and your game probably isnt big enough for xsolla and the like. Anyway. I'm just rambling but this really has my brain turning. Like, just get steam quality games from talented indie creators into the hands of kids on chromebooks and people on "work" laptops. It really isn't complicated. And we are not signing a fucking exclusivity deal when it is an experimental platform on an experimental medium.

[@pranaykumar6648]

Why not turn in into a poki competitor, allow other people to also upload

[@orangepixelgames]

Because I'm just one guy 😁

[@TechBoxNorth]

stay away from poki and all those other sites, bunch of scammers all of them!

[@yasserlatreche5594]

i might be agree with you at some point as well, their business model is rotten when you look at it from the inside! they earn money by enslaving developers and solo devs by giving them few cents here and there

[@orangepixelgames]

Easy to say, but if you want to do business with games, sometimes you can't avoid them (all) 🙃

[@me_apps]

Just build your own page like poki etc and release your games and also get advertisers.

[@zapyray3371]

Plz dont waste ur time on crazy games . its been like 6 months . no replies . They are full of sh*t . Rn , i think tehy just want hyper causal games who already hhave millions of players on mobile .