'A soft apartheid towards Muslims is emerging in Britain' | Owen Jones meets Peter Oborne

Peter Oborne is an anti-establishment Conservative and is anything but predictable. We talked about his belief that David Cameron's government has constructed a narrative about Islam which distinguishes between 'good' secular Muslims and 'bad' devout ones, leading to a 'soft apartheid' emerging in Britain. We also discussed his surprising views on Jeremy Corbyn's Labour leadership, his explosive resignation from the Daily Telegraph and his views on the UK's foreign policy in Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel.
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[@Serife403]

As a Muslim, hearing people like Mr Oborne is truly a breath of fresh air. It gives hope that there are still people out there who know our struggles and who are willing to speak out clearly against them. As always, thank you Owen for your insightful interviews and all your other videos besides!

[@ropa2142]

Great interview!

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+Rob Parker Thanks!

[@011258stooie]

+Owen Jones Are you man enough to answer some of the more controversial comments ?

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+011258stooie Tend to keep the more controversial ones for the videos.

[@011258stooie]

Owen Jones Don't get me wrong Owen, I like you, and your support for what Corbyn is trying to do. But untill WE ALL face up to the khazarian mafia, nothing will change.

[@sonicwingnut]

+Owen Jones I actually really like what you're doing here Owen - I've always agreed that politics can't be reduced to a simple Left/Right dichotomy, but what I like about interviews like this and Hitchens is that it shows your typical audience of "lefties" that there are actually allies in interesting parts of the political spectrum once you abandon the standard political tribalism. Although I did the same face as you when he mentioned the welfare state haha.

[@dmbkersh]

I'm an American. Please don't denigrate me for that, because I only hope that we can reach this caliber of dialogue among divided parties within my country. Absolutely brilliant to see and hear these topics from two intelligent, reasonable people, who experience the same issues that we experience in the states. I love what you're doing, Owen.

[@benanning7217]

Very interesting figure. Nice to see a conservative who has very considered values, not just based on the common views. Seems to be a genuine guy.

[@AbsenceOfEnmity]

Definitely one of the best interviews to date.

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+Daniel Cheers Daniel

[@pushingpolygons]

+Owen Jones Have you approached Roger Scruton for an interview? Your interviews with thoughtful, intelligent conservatives are definitely my favourites, and I think he'd be a really interesting interviewee.

[@amjadali-uw6ct]

+SparklerB : What kind of empty head are you, and your twisted minded friends, are pontificating about a great religion. Have you wread the Quran? Well , do so before you start, your trash talk. I wread your bible, and it is full of lies, as a result I converted. Your country attacked countries in the mid east and the people defended their country. They kicked your dubm assas out and you are mad with them. You now call them terrorists, and you spread lies about Islam, which is about the truth. What do you think is bad about Islam?

[@brockbest]

+Sparkler B Same sausage, different Skin.

[@puffin51]

+amjad ali I answer only for myself. I have read the Qu'ran in scholarly translation - Dawood's and Arberry's. Both were very fully footnoted. The effort took me some months - I found that the text is elusive in meaning, and that to understand it requires a full knowledge of the known or surmised circumstances under which it was written - that is, what the Prophet was referring to. I have also read some of the core hadith, from Muhammed Muhsin Khan's translation. I think that those writings are, like the Bible, a product of human beings of their time. They are the violent doctrines of a violent age, and neither is any better than the other. The Qu'ran is steeped in violence, urges conquest, has no concept for free speech, insists on unquestioning belief, cannot tolerate dissent, and demands barbaric and hideous punishments for opposition, as well as for ordinary crimes. So does the Bible, at least in the Old Testament. But the difference is this: almost no Christian or Jew now takes the violent messages in the Bible as a guide to conduct. But nowadays hardly a week goes by without Muslims attempting, and often committing, mass murder, usually of random bystanders. You cannot deny this, for it actually happens. You say that Islam doesn't support their actions. They say it does. I have read the Muslim holy books, and I also say it does. An action, it is said, is worth a thousand words. I believe their actions; I do not believe your words.

[@MichealJRoberts]

I understand where the concerns are coming from in terms of anti-Muslim sentiment, it's very real. It may seem that it is a bigoted idea to be fearful of the ideology of Islam, but I guarantee to you that that very real fear is not irrational. The idea that Islam is peaceful (much like the idea that Christianity was peaceful prior to the enlightment and the renaissance, or is not an idealogoy that is itself bigoted) is laughable. Tell me, why is is bigoted to oppose the oppression and sexual slavery of women? Why is it bigoted to oppose the opression of atheists and religious minorities? Why is it bigoted to oppose the idea of jihad and the caliphate? We all hate ISIS right? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Sharia Law? The notion that it is bigoted to oppose these fundamentally bad ideas is wrong. Plain and simple. If we on the left do not see this, then we can not be seen as credible. Addendum: If we replace the terms Islam with Christianity, and (very roughly) equate the ideologies of jihad with the crusades, then would we not be right to critcise Christianity in the time of the crusades?

[@Samchocolate11]

Most Muslims in the UK agree with all of those points. Where there might differ is rob ably their view of family members/friends/fellow Muslims who leave Islam and turn to atheism or another religion and their views of homosexual people. I fervently disagree with the latter and Muslims should be held to account, and criticised for those views, but let's not pretend they like most of the British population support the things you've listed.

[@MichealJRoberts]

The argument we are both making rests on whether we are underestimating or overestimating the number of "moderate" Muslims. Most surveys are pointing to perhaps less than 20% are moderate. But often, the definition of a moderate Muslim can be very vague. Dependent on that definition you can give a percentage of around 75%, and by moderate they can be classed as "peaceful non-violent" Muslims who support Jihad under certain circumstances. Which to me is not the definition of a moderate.

[@vreport6142]

+Michael Roberts You don't meet my arbitary definition of a moderate either. Explain to me why you are not an extremist, justify your existence why should you be allowed to go about your business? Why do you deserve to be treated with basic human decency?

[@MichealJRoberts]

@VivityReport Fair question. I never set myself up as moderate. However, I think we can all agree that everyone should be treated with basic human diginity, whatever definition you'd like to concoct. I would define someone who is extreme as someone who looks at things in black and white terms (who lacks the intelligence to see the continuum of people's ideas), and who dictates their ideas on others through threats of violence and death. A very simple definition, wouldn't you say? And Jiahdi's (extention to Wahhabis, and the Salafi movement) by extending simple logic, are, by that definition, extreme. Much like the Nazis. Much like neo-cons. Much like Zionists. Please, don't be blinded by your notion that the only opressor in this world is the white male.

[@MichealJRoberts]

@VivityReport No. But to counter your question: are all the bad ideas of Islam held within the confides of the ISIS movement? Have you not seen the lynchmobs for the poor Shia woman who alledgely burnt the Qu'ran? I ask you this one simple question. If had had to do one of the two following things, what would you rather do, Would you rather burn a Bible on the streets of Stratford-upon-avon or would you rather burn a Qu'ran in the middle of a busy street in Raqqa?

[@cumannach6739]

I like peter, Its refreshing to see a conservative with real founded beliefs, and im glad he understands how unfair the media are to jeremy, and he even seems to admire him

[@MrThathurt1]

A Tory that I can not only respect, but also agree with on some points. I'm astounded.

[@philipcallen5286]

That was brilliant! Thank you for the introduction to Peter, I shall seek out one of his books now I think...

[@ras4944]

I love Owen's face when the issue briefly touched IDS' welfare policies.

[@williamtudor]

+Left Winger I loved that bit too. Not sure how IDS and his shameless cull of the disabled is anything close to Beveridge.

[@Oliver-jm1sq]

+Paul Tudor Cull of the disabled? Seriously? There have been fuck all cuts made to welfare.

[@williamtudor]

Oliver Troll or genuine moron.... Cannot decide.

[@Oliver-jm1sq]

+Paul Tudor Welfare spending is over 100 billion/year. This doesn't even include pensions, which is even more.

[@williamtudor]

Oliver The vast majority of welfare spending goes to 'in work' benefits for the poorest workers in the country, as well you know. In terms of disability, the main point raised, the tories have waged war against the disabled, imposing sanctions and restricting payments to those most in need. I'm assuming you missed the appalling figures released on disability claimant deaths? People declared fit for work on their death beds and people with mental health problems committing suicide as a direct result of harassment and stress caused by the humiliating process of the WCA administered by atos. Are you okay with how the disabled are treated under the tories?

[@EATWP]

Interview Douglas Murray!

[@ruthbashford3176]

@The Flying Dutchman Exactly. This little prat is scared of Douglas Murray.

[@oldishandwoke-ish1181]

🤮

[@AndalusianIrish]

Great interview. Reminds me a bit of Peter Hitchens in that he is on the right but is his own man. He is almost like an American Libertarian.

[@hjyigo4759]

Andy McKinney I'm not sure if many American libertarians are apologists for islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. No, Peter Oborne is a good old fashioned British upper class anti semite.

[@melancholics_7808]

A right winger with a framed photograph of George Orwell? I'm definitely interested in this one.

[@jonathaneddy]

Another cracking interview. Open-minded, intelligent and insightful...more of the same please Mr Jones.

[@mariams.239]

I think Tommy Robinson hacked the comments section for this video.

[@oldishandwoke-ish1181]

????????

[@JoshuaBarretto]

Brilliant video. It's soothing to see that there are such things as rational Conservatives.

[@williamwalsh4217]

Absolutely fascinating interview Owen. Its always really interesting to listen to views that don't necessarily gel with your own but do come from a place of heartfelt honesty, independence and conviction. I also find people on the right of the political spectrum that have values that go against the neo conservative grain fascinating as well.

[@sichambers9011]

An excellent interview. Thanks Owen. One of the things that excites me about Corbyn are his views on democracy. It is actually what is at stake here. The left/right dichotomy is a charade and used to obscure the real process of what is happening in this country and many other Western countries. Powerful institutions, be them corporations or bodies like the EU are dominating policy-making. A policy-making that is in the hands of fewer and fewer people. A tick in a box every five years is mere distraction for current parties who take their leads from the people who lobby for their time and fund their campaigns. I'd say the crysis we are enduring is one of authoritarianism over democracy. I'd consider voting for someone who held a line similar to Oborne's. Interesting interview...

[@sichambers9011]

+Simon Piotrowski but then at bottom, that power is derived from economic wealth. A redress is in order.....It must be made as inequality is undermining our democratic values

[@weavehole]

So HSBC is to The Telegraph as Saudi Arabia is to Britain... fun!

[@sharifalqazm9875]

A gay man supporting Islam. Seems kinda like a turkey supporting Christmas.

[@carlharvey7098]

WOW! What a fantastic interview Owen & one of the best I've seen.

[@daisycollins9046]

Hi Owen, great video. Could you look into interviewing Scottish politicians?

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+Daisy Collins I'm still trying to get hold of Mhairi Black for a chat. Will try to keep you all posted.

[@Strettger]

+Owen Jones Try my MP Ian Murray, the last Labour MP in Scotland. Maybe a "the last unicorn" joke in there somewhere given thats our national animal but I can't think of one off the top of my head.

[@ruairihair]

+Owen Jones would love to see that. I'd love to see you talk to Ruth Davidson. great video again =)

[@secularscot5822]

+Strettger Jones has yet to interview an SNP MP, which is the problem here, so the remaining BritNat Labourite in Scotland won't apply.

[@secularscot5822]

+Owen Jones Owen if you can't get Mhairi Black, then there are still plenty of interesting and insightful SNP MPs you could interview. Tommy Sheppard, George Kerevan and Hannah Bardell are three of my personal favourites. While I'm sure you could grill Angus Robertson and you'd get a very interesting dialogue there.

[@brainwasheddaisies]

Hi Owen, how do you feel about being a university challenge question?

[@tperceval]

Hi OJ! Great video as always! Do you think the sound can be sorted out a little though? Loud at intro and outro but very quiet in the actual talk. Had to plug into amplifier and turn up to hear it properly. Keep up the good work, thanks!

[@glennbrennan7999]

Top quality interview, maybe even better than hitchens

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+Glenn Brennan High praise!

[@johncharlton199]

+Owen Jones Perhaps Robert Fisk Next?

[@iaindrummondgordongmailcom]

How refreshing to hear such fair and well researched opinions. Great interview.

[@ABO-Destiny]

It should be hard apartheid not soft.

[@alastor2322]

I've always been something of an apologist for Islam-typical of the left-yet my massive turning point-and it was siesmic one for me-was the systematic sexual abuse of vulnerable white girls all across the midlands and North on nothing short of an industrial scale. I am intelligent and aware to realise that this must be part of a general outlook that can be deemed as shockingly rascist regarding white females and it is something exceptionally worrying. I wanted to see many people from the Islamic faith in Britain speaking passionately with deep feeling regarding a need to confront these issues. I haven't seen this-and that tells me that the male Islamic population didn't see this as a problem-and here you have good reasons for feeling a distance between you and them'. In my view the issue of rascism doesn't see a level playing field at the moment

[@ruthbashford3176]

Alastor Well Said

[@rhodjones2960]

I'm what you would call 'right wing', but totally in agreement with Oborne.

[@arsenim01]

His views on Cameron haven't aged well

[@peterbolton6783]

We should get this guy to stand for Labour and have him replace Hilary Benn on the shadow benches.

[@thomastownend6308]

Great interview Owen, but I kept getting distracting by that person in the background, who is that? lol

[@mikedonington7578]

The end of the inteveiw owens like come at me bro 😂😂

[@smt2542]

I wish more Conservative cabinet members were like this man; he appears honest, and well principled.

[@5eek3r0fknowl3dg3]

"There will come a time when holding on to the deen (islam) will be like holding hot coals" Hadith in Tirmizi Sharif

[@171sheffutd]

your face lit up when he mentioned keir hardie

[@willmoore210]

Interesting looking back on this interview and the events that followed.

[@jasonramsdale]

What a fantastic interview from both sides of the mic! Excellent, if only the BBC would take notes...

[@fozbros]

My God Owen best interview i've seen in a long time.

[@pmgee6780]

Excellent interview Owen, keep up the good work.

[@patrickholt2270]

"Non-violent extremism": a rubrik to excuse persecuting pacifists and non-violent anti-capitalists.

[@WhyTorchwoodIsLife]

Aiming for "educational excellence" and supporting academisation are two very much contradicting concepts.

[@spannerintheworks1190]

This hasn't aged well.

[@ubikcube]

Owen, I would love if your camera man or woman would be willing to share the settings he used for this video....

[@AdamSich]

+ubikcube Hello... So we were using FS-7 cameras, on sticks, Cine-Log 2 settings, using Canon 24-105 lenses. That's pretty much all I can remember off the top of my head. 180 degree shutter angle... F-stop would have been 4 at best on those lenses, maybe 4.5. Thing I'm a bit annoyed about is the back-lighting on PO. Should have moved that light.

[@deccarose2133]

Ojs and my face when he said cameron was trying to bring back the welfare system to beveridge's ideal were completely identical

[@Govanmauler]

oh shit , are we calling owen oj now ? noice !!

[@hamzaabbasi9241]

As Predicted Sadiq Khan changed the History, Became the First Middle Class Muslim Mayor of London.This shows what happens when determined people get together ! This victory is more of Sadiq than the Labour Party.Londerners once again rejected the politics of hate.David Cameron and his right hand Zac Goldsmith ran the cheapest Campaign in history of UK, called him a terrorist,brownie but in end of the day This all didn't work.I didn't see these elections as Muslim vs Jew.I saw these elections as a Middle Class guy vs Symbol of Status Quo. Thank You London !

[@60toodles]

that is because it is now Londonistan and is no longer in reality a part of England.

[@NobleBrutus]

Hey Owen. I spent a couple of weeks in Iran over Christmas and was very surprised to hear that they have some very progressive policies... namely a citizen's income for everyone and a major flat building project where people could 'pre-order' a flat for them to own for ~$4000... what are your thoughts? Is it a model to follow or at least something we could learn from? Could we replicate it here in the UK? Yours, Noble.

[@Listenerandlearner870]

Relevant today.

[@tidyjimmy]

What a really good interview, I guess mr Oborne doesn't let his political ideology cloud his own free thoughts. It would have been great if you spoke a bite more about 'conservatism v neo-conservatism' with him to see where the conservation went. Good work Owen

[@DeaniBikini]

Fantastic interview, always love to see unusual figures interviewed. Also, is there a rule that all columnists wear the shirt/jumper combo when on screen?

[@Eurafrican]

Yep my face matched Owen's @ 5:12 lol!

[@zadramm1]

Hard to find descent men now a days.. but Peter Oborne is certainly a descent man.

[@DigitalWomble]

I think you mean "by" ...A soft apartheid BY Muslims is emerging in Britain... Aren't you like 50 years behind. Have you just noticed? Must be nice where you live.

[@marks4754]

Keep up the good work Owen .You certainly bring up some really important points in your videos

[@Joe-fg1yu]

could you do an explanation video about the difference between neo cons and traditional conservatives please

[@hjyigo4759]

Traditional Conservatives like Oborne have no problem with being anti semitic. They have a long history of it.

[@TopBanana1127]

Can totally relate to this guy. I can see my self being centre-right/right wing but I absolutely hate the current conservative party.

[@anish7183]

Why would you usually vite for the conservative party rather than labour

[@richardlaversuch2901]

I lived in Hitchin in the 1980s where there were loads of immigrants and a cosmopolitan atmosphere - I really liked it.

[@Exc13270]

Very interesting interview. Next stop - Peter Oborne Wikipedia page.

[@lupo10]

I've stopped thinking about groups, conservative and labour are just a way of grouping the masses. What ever group he feels closer to, the guy speaks much sense.

[@JLongTom]

1:41 There was clearly no tea in that gulp. What pretence!

[@Joninho8]

May have been a little.

[@harisniaz7027]

Owen's 'this guy fuckin serious?' face at 5.15

[@gmonkey808]

The idea that we invite in a critical mass of 'devout' people from foreign countries makes me feel a bit sick to be honest.

[@davidbrown-rk1ym]

The Muslim population based on the 2001 and 2011 census of the UK is now more then total population of Wales

[@Hephaestus84]

Great interview and very good to hear from the principled Conservative crowd for whom I have enormous respect. Even more rare than principled Labourites, it seems.

[@anish7183]

Why do u think he's a conservative at all

[@Summer-fe5qd]

Can he still say that after what's happening in the streets of England right now?

[@kamalmortoza9888]

very interesting interview, but did you really need a clickbait title? I'd have watched it anyway as I watch all your videos...

[@RogerLewisGuitarPlayer]

Fantastic Interview I liked the one with Peter Hitchens as well. Keep up the Stellar Work Owen. Fascinating insightful stuff.

[@176cadbury]

Great interview - but someone needs to teach Owen how to drink coffee from a cup.

[@leejohnson3209]

Largely agreed with him on foreign policy failure, past and present - and it's underlying causes. Also I echo his criticism of the 'establishment' - the media, big business etc. However his few words on domestic matters alarmed me greatly, such as his defence of IDS. But he's a small state conservative, so I'd expect that. On the EU; I think being IN has many benefits to business, and potential benefits to peace, the environment and human rights around the globe. However at the moment it's anti-democratic, too pro business and as such poses potential dangers to mankind. I think we could change it for better, but not with this government! Finally, as for our 'democracy'? Until PR is introduced, it's a sham.

[@TheBassHeavy]

Great video, Owen! I don't know a whole lot about this guy, but he seems like a friendly chap and I was with him until he mentioned his views on IDS' welfare policies. I think my face did the same as yours at that point.

[@macncheesegaming2453]

I love this, it gives me hope that there can be a sane voice and a sensible debate to be had by either side, the conservatives don't have to be so far right and Labour doesn't have to be so riddled with Blairites. One of the best interviews I've ever had the pleasure of viewing :)

[@serjthereturn]

the whole thing with the Telegraph censoring criticism of HSBC is exactly what Chomsky talks about in Manufacturing Consent

[@gmonkey808]

I think many people in the UK formed the opinion long ago that 'Devout' anything isnt such a great idea. Im quite happy that my family and I dont fear being burned at the stake these days.

[@AnCoilean]

Will you cover the Irish election?

[@herjaxx]

Would have been interesting to hear more about Peter Oborne's belief that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic, being as we have a referendum on it in the very near future.

[@Lizziebatt]

Fascinating! Lots of refreshing discussion making a great video.

[@joshm7081]

Owen, you did a video recently asking whether the left should campaign to leave the EU, with some very sound reasoning. Did your chat with Peter make you think any further on this?

[@charmainewakelin6278]

GRRRREAT INTERVIEW Owen:) Eye-opening and encouraging.

[@WildOwlFilms]

Great interview Owen. Huge respect for Peter Oborne in resigning on matters of principal about The Telegraph spiking HSBC negative stories.

[@rorysmith3595]

Owen's mic is a bit hot at the end! Keeps clipping. Also at some points the lighting on Peter and Owen could have been better to make them stand out against the background, & the brightness brought up in post; it's weirdly dim.

[@Dimlien]

Fascinating interview. If only more people on the right were like this, maybe we could actually have sensible debates about the issues and find some decent compromises, rather than just getting drawn into yelling at each other until most reasonable people give up in disgust.

[@jeales895]

Peter Oborne and Jeremy Corbyn both prioritise democracy above all else. The current Conservative leadership and most of the Labour party MPs prioritise winning elections above all else. Fascinating intelligent interview

[@chriswatson3464]

I've been severely attacked in Bolton for being white, in a muslim area. Racism against whites is a problem in this country and yes, racism against brown skin people, is a problem too.

[@jonathanward7810]

even the buddists in thailand and myamar have a huge problem with islam and i assure you buddist people are very tolerant and friendly.

[@AAli-bu7vk]

short answer editing was slick, but i wish i can see the full interview. This Oborne guy is very fascinating! more of him wont hurt....

[@brettperry3737]

It's not like the British are forcibly segregating these people. They're segregating themselves as a blatant rejection of western culture and values. They love the idea of finding a better life in wealthy, modern, secular, European countries.... But refuse to alter their behavior and demand everyone else conform to their standards. Failing to realize that their cultural practices are the very things which impoverished the countries they came from in the first place. whereas Europe has that wealth and modernity they seek.... specifically because it rejects theocratic governance. Moving to a new country can't rectify immiseration, when that misery is self inflicted.

[@Krocodilopolis]

wow peter oborne is one sincere guy.. big ups to this tory

[@thomassteele5748]

I wish traditional conservatives and traditional labour were able to agree with each other that neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism are not the directions their parties should be heading.

[@End-Result]

One of the only centrists I will gladly listen to.

[@shad0wyenigma]

He does seem like a fair person, and in my opinion that is the one trait that the leaders of this country should have above all others. Also a great interview.

[@iaindunbar1578]

Good interview, but did he really not realise that the advertisers of newspapers call the shots, or that the British state could be perfidious??

[@robmuir4460]

It's amazing to me how when you get past the stupidity of the Conservative figureheads you find intelligent, and pretty left leaning, party members. Very good interview. Certainly made me want a cup of tea too...

[@mitchellmckee9287]

This guy is brilliant, good questions too. Good one Owen.

[@thomastaylor92]

Hi Owen found this really compelling viewing a brilliant interview all round. Keep it up

[@fallyhag]

Strange experience. Watching a Tory talk without the urge to punch the screen is a first... Thanks for the introduction. Hearing an independant thought from a politician is a rare thing indeed...

[@matteoj226]

Peter Oborne is a wonderful man, was great to see him interviewed, not least by a Corbynista. Striking, wasn't it, to see such common ground between two so-called opponents.

[@isherg1]

Great stuff Owen Jones. So how come it really is such a terrible paper???

[@Govanmauler]

+isherg1 Owen writes some great stuff but most of the Guardian is utter toss.

[@johnbrittlebank1450]

It's great listening to this on the other side of the 12/19 election.

[@Yourismouter]

not a fan of the Guardian or Owen Jones but give credit where its due this was a great interview of Peter Oborne who I find is great muckraker along with John Pilger, Nafeez Ahmed, Vanessa Beeley, and Adam Curtis. Truly what Pilger would describe as an honorable exception to the horrendous unwatchable/unreadable press in the UK and like Ron Paul may not agree with his economic worldview but truly appreciate the fact he's an anti-imperialist and goes against the grain of most conservatives and liberal's realist/colonial ethos.

[@DanAI17]

Great content, just wish there was more.