A Technoboost for Meditation | Jay Sanguinetti | TEDxBigSky

[@squamish4244]

It's happening now, his protocol, developed with Shinzen Young, has completed Stage 1 trials at The University of Arizona. Has HUGE implications for human well-being, as well as for specific mental health conditions. I eagerly await its progress and approval by the FDA (medical devices tend to be approved much more quickly than medication) and arrival in Canada. Sunnybrook Hospital, in Toronto, is two hours from where I live and is currently the only centre in North America offering pulsed ultrasound in the brain to treat specifically OCD. I have serious, treatment-resistant OCD. Many other North American centres are doing research into anxiety, depression and many other disorders. I have signed up for the study and been to two interviews.

[@neoloaded]

Hi valar, do you know what's the current status of the project?

[@squamish4244]

@@neoloaded I don't know. But I have decided to go ahead with the OCD treatment and have it scheduled for April 11.

[@caffeinum]

@@squamish4244How did it go for you? I’m arriving back to Canada soon and would love to connect with you

[@squamish4244]

@@caffeinum I have done two interviews so far and am still a candidate. They're really thorough on the process, and the waiting list is long, so it's been ten months since I submitted the papers and I expect it to take at least a year until I undergo the treatment. Sorry, I don' know how to PM on here but feel free to send me one for more info.

[@thomashurbert]

Wow. How have I not heard of this man? This is or could be a huge breakthrough for helping us get out of own way - love it Jay

[@erynsee1319]

an amazing talk with real possible outcomes for all

[@johnrowan9033]

me too, great research

[@jackiehathway]

I love the sounds of this, to be able to find mindfulness faster and perhaps more effectively, this is as much a gift from above as it is man made.

[@3JazzyJay3]

That's a kind comment. Thank you!

[@ehsaankumer]

agree

[@carlyberstani]

agree also

[@charlesaddington]

such an exciting study, so much potential

[@harrisonstenson8324]

very cool

[@timmymckinley]

This man is amazing. Much much respect for his wisdom and for this if it becomes available to lots of people.

[@carlyberstani]

I cant wait I will try it

[@timmymckinley]

@@carlyberstani me too I am waiting

[@gobigorgohome1161]

Intervention meditation for longer-lasting depth and stillness can hardly wait for those to become little kiosks in the mall. Pure Presence!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks for taking an interest!

[@gobigorgohome1161]

@@jaysanguinetti368 wow thanks for messaging back

[@rebeccadcarl]

This is such a great thing to study, its not like this world couldn't use something that elevates the vibrations, well done.

[@ehsaankumer]

One of the best talks I've seen in a long time

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks so much for the kind message!

[@annemery885]

I agree, what a christmas present this is

[@ehsaankumer]

@@jaysanguinetti368 wow I didnt even see you wrote back sir, I am watching again now. Has there been progress?

[@LoveJungle420]

I'm excited for the possibility of this technology! This seems like it would make a few hours of meditation reap the benefit of a short retreat. I feel it needs to go hand in hand with activism, otherwise this kind of happiness will only go to the upper class who can afford it. Although if many people truly get this benefit, they may be more inclined to help people get better access to it. But we still shouldn't be beholden to the whims of the upper class to access this level of inner peace. You can say "well a person should just sit down and meditate with or without this device", but I would then assume you didn't grow up poor. A single parent mom raising two kids and working all day will probably find it very difficult to meditate for the amount of hours needed to recognize the ground of consciousness, the natural state or non-duality where inner peace flows from. I'm sure there's a way to make inner peace equitable.

[@ricardom.arnold]

This is genius, absolute genius. If this works it could make a massive change in the world.

[@artcornish3520]

Thanks for sending to me

[@nancygraskonski]

I finally watched this video, I am so glad I did.its been in the group for 2 weeks now, I am ready to try this when it becomes available

[@juneedgin7151]

me too (hi nancy!) why didnt you message me you did?

[@nancygraskonski]

@@juneedgin7151 did you see me in group? I am there most days

[@cedrickdroui]

Wonderful talk, to put together such a complex idea in language that makes sense is a great talent. And yes I want to try this too!!!

[@elainarogers]

me too

[@rickyohe]

amazing talk I agree

[@elainarogers]

@@rickyohe yes it is

[@PinataOblongata]

Could see an issue with his experiment - Shinzen knew what the hypothesis was and could have been influenced to simply believe he went "deeper, faster" by placebo effect, not to mention the motivated reasoning of wanting his friend's well-meaning experiment to be successful. Had high hopes when Dr Sanguinetti said it needed to be replicated, but unfortunately he said that "the participants were skeptical that it wold help". If you want to test the effectiveness you don't TELL them you expect it to help! You simply tell them you're doing some brain imaging to see the effects of meditation (or say you're going to test the VARIABLE effects of different stimulation, which may make it harder or easier to meditate), and then afterwards you ask them if they noticed anything different about their meditation. You also have CONTROLS wearing all the same headgear and getting all the same imaging, but you don't actually turn on the ultrasonics. You can't SUGGEST that it's going to help and then see if it helps, because this is such a cerebral and subjective subject that such a suggestion will influence the results. Perhaps some of these confounders and their potential controls were taken into account in the actual experimentation and just left out of a brief Ted talk, as I see Dr Sanguinetti is a well-published/qualified researcher, but it's important to mention in any public explanation of your work how you ensure your results are robust - especially when you're working in a field full of subjectivity and one that others may be highly skeptical of.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Great points! Thank you for bringing them up. You are correct -- we do not tell our participants what to expect before the experiment starts. We do post-experiment questions to ask them what they expected. I did not make this clear in my talk which is a shame. The TED format is just too short. Anyway, we have not replicated with more participants and have run a resting-state fMRI connectivity study. I can't say what we found yet -- we must wait for the review process -- but we are submitting to a journal now so look for it soon.

[@PinataOblongata]

@@jaysanguinetti368 Thanks for the reply, sir. I'm just curious why any participant would be thinking that the ultrasonics might either help or hinder their meditation, unless they were familiar with your world beforehand. If they believed that they were just being imaged, I assume they would not have feelings about an intervention they were unaware of. Perhaps you could not do it this way because failing to divulge the ultrasonics would not pass ethics? I'm curious to know what you think of Sam Harris' statements about psychedelics often being a similar shortcut to the one you're looking for, albeit one with no guarantees to work in the intended way. Do you see them as potentially being used alongside meditation as a psychological therapeutic? Good luck with your review process, I'm sure many will be interested to see the results, especially after this TED exposure.

[@MatthewElvey]

Yes, it would be at least difficult to get past an ethics board (IRB); informed consent is required now for almost all studies. Jay did get a double-blind pilot study done and published, however! Look up "A double-blind pilot study of transcranial ultrasound (TUS) as a five-day intervention: TUS mitigates worry among depressed participants" ! Reading it forthwith. Exciting. I have the brain MRIs and am keen to find out if you're looking for volunteers, Jay. ([Edit: It looks like using it on this particular target is not for me - it looks like it worked for worry (anxiety) but not depression in the DBRCT. But I'm still interested in research on other targets. For example, I wonder what the effect would be on active brain, optic nerve or spinal lesions in folks with neuroimmune disease. We don't have good treatments; steroids (IVSM) are standard treatment, but they're only something like 20% effective. ]

[@MatthewElvey]

(Wow, so KZbin (sometimes) deletes comments containing DOIs now. Had to repost with just the article title to get it past the censorship.)

[@PinataOblongata]

@@MatthewElvey I noticed that! So annoying! As if published research is a threat to them, it's ridiculous. You would think they'd want to support people sharing actual research, instead of all the spurious blog posts and non-scientific opinion-masquerading-as-fact that gets shared around on their platform, but I guess not...

[@josievannorman]

I took so much from this speech.With this the future could be amazing if people could find mindfulness. So good so very good thank you.

[@jhonusalazar]

What a Christmas gift this is, now if only it can become real for us to try and use...

[@rickyohe]

Here seeing this for the 5th time, this is such exciting research that could help millions of people.

[@mariannemortimer7724]

What an amazing project to work on, and great insight to find in yourself. Good talk.

[@aphysique]

Is Stuart Hameroff on board yet with you guys?? If not, please do yourself a favor, research his hypothesis & experiments with Microtubules & it's correlation with consciousness!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Yes, Stuart and I work together. He's great although our work does not overlap with his theory much.

[@xavierdistaple8620]

This is so amazing, I really want to try this.

[@mxeast]

We are so proud of you!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks, nice lady. :)

[@paulgoddard5535]

The revolution of direct experience is short at hand!!!! No more squabbling dogmas, instead inspired efforts to converge maps of transcendent experience!!!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Indeed, direct experience of deep states of equanimity or concentration can be life-changing, especially when practicing mindfulness in the long term.

[@squamish4244]

Probably the only thing that will save us from destroying ourselves, as we may otherwise do this century.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@squamish4244 Indeed -- humanity is facing simultaneous crises (climate emergency, ecological collapse, economic destabilization, food shortages, water shortages, etc.). I believe at the heart of these issues is a misunderstanding of our relationship with ourselves, our fellow humans, and nature at large. Any tool that helps us understand our interconnectivity -- and deep dependence -- on other people and nature, will certainly help to secure our future. We must work quickly!

[@squamish4244]

We are of exactly the same train of thought. I can't thank you enough for your fine work.

[@squamish4244]

It can indeed be life-changing, because what happens to so many people practicing mindfulness in the long term - it happened to me - is if you never experience such states, you can get exhausted and disillusioned with the practice. And it is easy to stagnate for your whole life, as older meditators I have met have done. The only answer the traditional teachers have is 'More meditation/It must be your karma' etc. So wonderful to hear the Dalai Lama doesn't buy that. Neither does my energy healer, who is herself an advanced teacher.

[@arjunchana2134]

This is crazy stuff, but crazy stuff in the good way. Is it possible there might be clinics doing this soon?

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thank you for your comment. Yes, we will be testing this protocol on addiction early next year. We are hopeful but we will see what the data says!

[@arjunchana2134]

@@jaysanguinetti368 nice, where will we see the results of it

[@squamish4244]

@@jaysanguinetti368 They will be conducting a study of OCD treatment at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre in Toronto, but it involves destroying a tiny amount of brain tissue with focused ultrasound capsulotomy. I assume you are not going to do that?

[@effierose5391]

This is such good work, I know of a lot of people that could use this way to mindfulness, they just can't realize realization.

[@johnlum8136]

agree with you

[@verymarysalisbury]

Very important work by this man is doing.

[@johnpederson3085]

Yes, I see this as a big step joining science and spirit.

[@neoloaded]

This is stupendous!!! What's the progress on this research?

[@dougjones5607]

Fascinating video!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Cheers

[@sylviacrittendon]

This is such amazing research

[@liza-zotova]

Wonderful work, I sure hope it works out well for all of us.

[@sadiaykor]

yeah me too

[@liza-zotova]

@@sadiaykor thanks

[@sadiaykor]

@@liza-zotova all cool

[@maverickvassallo]

This is very important work he is doing.

[@kramersang]

Amazing!

[@johnrowan9033]

This is an idea worth sharing!

[@dans-designs]

amazing, keep up the work!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks for taking interest in our work.

[@marvintowns9549]

I have not been able to meditate, I wonder will this really help me?

[@fenglov9111]

This is an exciting discovery.

[@seriouschatter8765]

Paying attention is a tool and to be more mindful is a resource, be sure to let me know when you’ve launched ultrasound for the brain.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Agreed -- our goal is to help people acquire the attention skills (the "tools") that compose mindful awareness with our training protocols. We are running experiments now and hope to move this forward into the clinic. It will take a few years of careful scientific investigation but we are hopeful.

[@seriouschatter8765]

@@jaysanguinetti368 I was hoping sooner, but I will wait, thanks Jay and great talk

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@seriouschatter8765 We wish we could get it out faster but the science is slow, unfortunately. A tool to safely enhance mindfulness training would be wonderful but the safe part is important and that takes careful science to ensure.

[@seriouschatter8765]

@@jaysanguinetti368 thats ok I will wait

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@seriouschatter8765Thanks for understanding. We're working overtime to get the science done. :)

[@N02tradamus]

what would be the safety aspect of this?

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Great question. We are using low-intensity ultrasound (~200 - 600 mW/cm^2), which has a great safety record (think of fetal imaging with ultrasound). However, ultrasound at higher energies/intensities can be very dangerous. You can heat up or caviate your brain -- two things you don't want to do! So, we DO NOT recommend trying this at home. It should only be done by researchers in the laboratory setting and with the proper equipment.

[@stanleysisk1636]

@@jaysanguinetti368 is someone or a group commercialized this yet?

[@rogerbisby6934]

@@jaysanguinetti368 same thing for me is this going to be a commercial application (strange name for it) but will counselors be able to use this?

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@rogerbisby6934 Our research is moving in stages. At this point, we are testing efficacy and safety (with fMRI, MR spectroscopy, EEG, and behavioral tasks). We are in the middle of this phase but are starting a clinical experiments over the next few months. If that works out and the science is positive, we plan to take this into the clinic and work with clinicians. We'll have firm answers from the experiments in a year or so. :)

[@rogerbisby6934]

@@jaysanguinetti368 Thanks for replying, I am very interested in this I shall keep watching for it

[@eric-tran]

I'll wait for more results, seems like there are some areas we don't need tech to be in.

[@tripleG1199]

Are you saying you don't like the idea of having tech in the area of mindfulness mediation? If so, why not?

[@eric-tran]

@@tripleG1199 because it sounds like a hack a shortcut, the latest fad. The art of practice is about practicing, not a cheat to get there without the work.

[@theoallan7474]

I have that anxious mind too, hope this works.

[@robertaherron]

In between the moments of the mind there is a bit space called no mind. Count me in!

[@jaysanguinetti368]

:)

[@sherylrinkler]

What a lovely thought Roberta

[@robertaherron]

@@sherylrinkler I just saw this, thank you

[@nonduality7]

I like this but I am seriously conflicted by it. I have followed the teachings of Papaji for years and it feels a bit like we are cheating the process. Or is it part of the path forward? I am not so smart to know the answer. Part of me wants to try to see, another part wants to stay on my path away from technology like this.

[@janetsplace1953]

yes yes yes it worries me too that we seem to be looking for short cuts to consciousness

[@sherylrinkler]

what if in us making it a higher power really made it?

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. Hesitation and conflict are understandable and we should have an open discussion about worries like yours. They are valid concerns. One thing I did not have time to highlight in my talk is that our goal is not to induce mindful states. We are not replacing mindfulness practice. Our intervention, if successful, will still take considerable time and effort (you still need to apply mindfulness practice). Rather, the goal is to promote the acquisition of mindfulness skills and when these skills are "online" they tend to promote the form of awareness we call mindfulness. We borrow the framework developed by Shinzen Young when thinking about mindful awareness. We define mindful awareness as the interaction of three core attention skills -- concentration power, sensory clarity, and equanimity. Any practice that elevates these core skills will elevate mindful awareness. Obviously, some mindfulness practices will help you learn those skills faster than others. So do we say the ones that work faster are also cheating? As long as we are helping you learn those attention skills faster without disrupting any other cognitive functions, then the paradigm should be safe and desirable. However, I think under your question is a deeper question about whether the "transformations" that can occur with mindfulness and meditation practice need to take time. Perhaps there is some wisdom to the unfolding of the process over time. Well, that's also a good comment. Of course, negative things can "come up" in mindfulness practices or on retreats. You need time to integrate those into healthy experiences. We are well aware of these issues, and the much deeper issues like "the dark night of the soul" that can emerge with deep mindfulness practice. We have methods, mostly developed by Shinzen but also by clinical psychology, that are in place to militate against these problems and ensure healthy integration of the experiences. We must be very careful in applying these practices and in providing the proper support, even without the technboost!

[@janetsplace1953]

@@jaysanguinetti368 thank you for explaing

[@thomashurbert]

@@jaysanguinetti368 your answer was almost a whole other TED

[@daveallanthedave]

Okay I'm in, I'm ready, test it on me!

[@gemmaatterks]

I get it, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head and yes heart around this.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

That's totally understandable. What is your hesitation? We enjoy your feedback. :)

[@gemmaatterks]

@@jaysanguinetti368 if technology can be used to unlock consciousness I guess, sometimes it feels like the certain things should not be done. But then also if technology can, then maybe we should try it.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@gemmaatterks Great point. We think one should do this work with careful planning and full support for the patient or participant. We are well aware of the issues that can emerge with mindfulness/meditation training, especially long-term practice. We will have full support for our patients, including trained mindfulness coaches and professional psychologists/MDs. And we plan to constantly refine the paradigm to support people as they experience the deep transformations that mindfulness offers (if our technology works, that is -- time will tell).

[@squamish4244]

@@gemmaatterks I think it could help a lot, many meditators spin their wheels for decades and quit in frustration but maybe we don't have to now.

[@squamish4244]

It's inevitable that this would happen sooner or later, as our society became ever more technologically advanced. (Machines could surpass our intelligence in a generation, for example.) It is also becoming so complex and our problems so onerous that if we don't find ways to accelerate the attainment of enlightenment, spirituality will cease to be adaptable just when we will need it most.

[@shapeyourmind6744]

Wow...

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks!

[@alicanbayram9165]

🙏👏👏

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Thanks so much for taking the time to watch.

[@sonedeogeehtsne8280]

Nice

[@martin36369]

There has been some research to show that ultrasound, causes babies to be born with lower weight, the idea that the delicate morphology of a developing fetus is unaffected by rapid oscillations has always annoyed me, likewise with the brain, I wouldn't be surprised if it caused strokes with extended use. As for there video they go from ECT to drugs to their device , literally side-steeping the whole history of consciousness expanding devices such as bio-entrainment, Lucia light stimulation, temporal lobe stimulation, the neurophone, holophonics, the mind mirror etc etc

[@susanpqpowell]

Now this is an idea worth spreading, haha, but seriously it is

[@jaysanguinetti368]

That's kind of you. Thanks!

[@TheRubenZepeda]

I am in, a spliff first please then meditate to marley. Okay kidding but this sounds way cool

[@jackiehathway]

haha I don't think thats what they had in mind

[@TheRubenZepeda]

@@jackiehathway dang I liked that idea

[@marvintowns9549]

thats too funny

[@TheRubenZepeda]

@@marvintowns9549 you never know it might help haha

[@frepi]

Apple, Amazon and Google will try to use this tech to make peoples feel happy when they think about their brands.

[@jonaspotrykus]

Are we always trying to fix something that already works? Seeking mindfulness is not supposed to be a hack, yet we seek the fastest path towards it without contemplating the journey to it. The speaker seems to be a man who does want peace, yet will he achieve it with this?

[@jaysanguinetti368]

Good points! Thank you for your feedback. We do not claim to be "fixing" mindfulness. As you said, it works! We simply want to enhance the learning rate of the attention skills that we believe underlie mindfulness. Our scientific question is: Can we speed it up and can we do that without losing the good stuff or causing negative side effects? We believe these are valid scientific questions, and if our paradigm works, it will have huge implications for mindfulness-based interventions. Mindfulness helps with issues like chronic pain, but many patients don't experience the benefits early enough and therefore they are not motivated to continue practicing. Our goal is to speed up the process so we can help people and reduce suffering. Think of it this way, research suggests that some mindfulness practices work better (ie faster) than others for on an individual basis. This is not surprising since each individual learns differently. So would you recomend taking the slower meditation first? What if you knew the faster meditation practice would reduce your chronic pain symptoms? Of course, all things being equal, you'd chose the faster practice. That's all we're trying to do.

[@harrisonstenson8324]

@@jaysanguinetti368 I watched 2 days ago, and have thought about it Jay, I am thankful for your work, this is not a fix, just perhaps a tool to help us do the work. Yeah came back to watch again.

[@harrisonstenson8324]

@@jaysanguinetti368 hope you didn't take my twilight comment wrong, you have the same voice.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@harrisonstenson8324 That's nice of you, thank you for taking interest in our work.

[@jaysanguinetti368]

@@harrisonstenson8324 No worries. Which comment are you referring to?

[@AdrienDesautels]

How is a technoboost any different than a chemical boost? Any 'boost' goes against the whole principle.

[@Beeritk]

Principles are only in your head

[@AdrienDesautels]

Meditation doesn't work like that. You can't 'shock' something with drugs or electricity and get the same, lasting result. The neuroscience doesn't back it up.

[@aphysique]

@Natalie Bryant Right, spot on with that analysis!!

[@seriouschatter8765]

@@AdrienDesautels you are saying he is wrong then?

[@squamish4244]

Well...you can't 'shock it' (not yet), but you can entrain it to produce lasting results without meditating. I got tremendous results from 1/2 hour sessions of neurofeedback while surfing the web with the wires hooked up to my head. I didn't do anything and it accomplished more in 1% of the time I've spent meditating. Keep in mind we're getting these amazing results and we're just scratching the surface of the brain. So who knows what we will be able to do in 20 years. There's no cosmic rule that says meditation = enlightenment. Some people wake up one morning and BOOM. They are rare, but the fact that they exist at all is revealing. Others achieve in one year of practice what takes other 20 years with the same effort. Etc. Meditation is as subject to impermanence as all other concepts.

[@marcusphotina]

This sounds familiar...