abortion vs. infanticide: is there a moral difference?

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if a viable fetus and a newborn baby share the exact same physical and psychological traits, then why is abortion permissible and infanticide not? i delve into a couple of papers on this topic. enjoy my amazing animation skills while you're at it.
✧･ﾟ: ✧･ﾟ: i'd love to hear what you all have to say *:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 intro
5:14 abortion vs. infanticide
14:48 pro-life's reliance on the potentiality principle
19:51 refutation against the potentiality principle
23:41 G&M providing more medical context
26:37 born-alive babies
30:42 the moral significance of birth
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SOURCES:
Dyer, J. "What's the Difference Between Abortion and Infanticide?" www.thepublicdiscourse.com/20...
George, R. P. "Obama and Infanticide." www.thepublicdiscourse.com/20...
Giubilini, A & Minerva, F. "After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?" dx.doi.org/10.1136/medethics-2...
Life Legal. "Testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN HR 1797." lifelegaldefensefoundation.or...
Philosophy Tube. "Abortion & Ben Shaprio | Philosophy Tube." • Abortion & Ben Shapiro...
Porter, L. "Abortion, infanticide and moral context." doi.org/10.1136/medethics-201...
Rini, R. A. "Of course the baby should live: against ‘after-birth abortion'." dx.doi.org/10.1136/medethics-2...
Sider, T. "Personal Identity." tedsider.org/books/chapters_1_...
"State of Illinois: 92nd General Assembly." Transcript. Apr 4, 2002. www.ilga.gov/senate/transcrip...
"State of Illinois: 92nd General Assembly." Transcript. Mar 30, 2001. www.ilga.gov/senate/transcrip...
Thomson, J.J. "A Defense of Abortion." spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/P...
Tooley, M. "Abortion and Infanticide." www.jstor.org/stable/2264919
Warren, M. A. "The Moral Significance of Birth." www.jstor.org/stable/3809825?...
MUSIC:
"A Night Alone": • No Copyright | Calm Ja...
Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 5 in F Minor, BWV 1056: II. Largo"
Brahms: 16 Waltzes Op. 39
tags: abortion, pro-choice, pro-life, pro choice, pro life, pro abortion, antiabortion, roe vs wade, america, texas, abortion laws, keep your laws off my body, planned parenthood, obama, born-alive babies, jill stanek, march for life, my body my choice, social commentary, internet analysis, video essay, analysis video, philosophy, tiktok, shanspeare, jordan theresa, cj the x, tiffany ferg, alice cappelle, contrapoints, philosophy tube, madisyn brown, chad chad, tee noir

[@oliSUNvia]

man why did the audio cut out at 9:20 :((( i was saying "but are you really you?" also why do i talk so slow, even i watch this video at 1.25x

[@lotfj]

Idk, I just finished watching on normal speed and for me it is a good pace to take in and process what I'm hearing

[@kadentrig8178]

Watching it on x2 speed lol. But talking slow not a bad thing. And only one mistake in a 40 minute video is pretty good

[@kadentrig8178]

That’s less than one mistake per .5 hour! 🤯🤯

[@rachaelh8026]

I actually like how you speak, it makes your words very clear and easier to think on because it's not very fast

[@slavaleks9027]

I like the pace you speak at, it allows me to really focus on understanding difficult concepts

[@chaosbeam4654]

If women have to be forced to be pregnant, men should be forced to pay child support, regardless if they’re together or not. One shouldn’t be solely punished

[@mrcattoonist4766]

Or if we're just out here removing bodily autonomy rights then they should be legally forced to get a vasectomy until they decide later in life to have kids, after all their orgasm is what causes the pregnancy, stop the problem at it's source

[@ForgeofAule]

If they are together child support wouldn't be needed, at least not in a healthy relationship. And on the flipside, you would agree that as it is right now men shouldn't have to pay child support when women can choose abortion? Afterall, the man might not want the kid. One shouldn't be solely punished.

[@chaosbeam4654]

@@ForgeofAule did you scroll through three months of comments looking for one to get offended over. I don’t even have a comeback for that, that’s just sad.

[@goatstatusj5112]

Are you nuts. Men are forced to pay child support. Don't be so stupid. More like if men get no say in a woman wanting an abortion, women should have no saying a man wanting to pa7 child support. Unfortunate the court will make men pay child support no matter what 🤡🤡

[@aquila7602]

Wait I thought men were already forced by law to pay child support? Or is this some Mandela effect thing

[@plexyglass429]

If my mother had aborted me I find it to be reasonable. She was 19, unemployed, my father was an unhinged lunatic and she had already been in rocky wateres with her parents. I had a horrible childhood due to the circumstances I was brought into and it still effects me.

[@Ian8Abbie]

Same, seeing people in the comments looking at the world like its sunshine and rainbows is so annoying. Forcing an ill woman to have a child rather than abort can end awfully. No, the child wont be "playing and running" it'll be neglected and starved, maybe even sold. But they don't care about that, ignorance.

[@JFat5158]

@@2wickie686 How could you be pissed if you were aborted? I was nearly aborted because they thought Id have severe defects and I have thought about it a bit and realised that if it did happen I wouldnt be here to care, so whatever..?

[@Ian8Abbie]

@@2wickie686 You wouldnt be pissed, youd never have had emotions. Also, this isnt about the mothers comfort, its about the abuse of a child. All you are doing is endangering children, if the only reason youre pro abortion is because you want to get back at your mother (calling your mothers comfort less important than a lump with no feelings) then that honestly shows what kind of person you are.

[@2wickie686]

@@Ian8Abbie That's such a worthless argument because I right now would be pissed if I hadn't been given the chance to life because they decided to have sex instead of abstain or do everything in their power to ensure a baby wouldn't be made. And my mother's comfort is less important than a future child. She consented to sex and to the consequences of it, and she doesn't get to rip my developing body out of her's just because boohoo consequences aren't fair. I'm a wonderful person and you can go fuck yourself with your ad hominem attacks. :)

[@stacycarlton2056]

@@Ian8Abbie the whole funny part about this is if they had of been aborted u never would have had a conversation with someone who might not have liked the idea of being aborted. 🤔 realy makes u consider life 😂

[@reapingbennefits]

Thinking about the time my (heavily Christian, pro-life) brigade made us (13-17 year old “girls”) discuss abortion and they somehow got into discussing whether the baby or the mother should live if it comes to that and someone said “Well, I think its God’s plan to have the mother die. Her duty was to give birth to that baby.” And I just looked at her and said “And what if she had 8 other children?” And everyone shut up. I am one of eight, my mothers last pregnancy was either her or baby.

[@shellaa.l3839]

You could have also used ''females'' it sounds less stupid than ''afab''

[@reapingbennefits]

@@shellaa.l3839 probably, i just chose the first word that came to mind.

[@BlueEyesWhiteDragonStan]

@@shellaa.l3839 yea, but then the pc tras would have a cow

[@yassine8935]

​@@BlueEyesWhiteDragonStanI genuinely am glad I don't have a uterus so I can wake up every day thanking the ancestors I won't have offspring that will end up as annoying as you .

[@corpsemodder]

​@@BlueEyesWhiteDragonStangasp! the pc tras would have a cow!

[@arcious60]

My friend was conceived via rape. His mother was pro life and his father got custody. The court didn't believe the mother was raped. He only sees her for visits and is battling court. My friend told me he wants to die and wishes he was never born because of the abuse. His father treats his half brothers better because they were planned. Choosing to keep a baby in that situation will lead to abusive childhoods.

[@arcious60]

@@u.s.citizen9933 it's not murder if it hasn't been born. It hasn't taken its first breath. My friend said he wanted to die and wished he was aborted. His father had custody. What's your reasoning here?

[@u.s.citizen9933]

@@arcious60 that is a different argument that what I was making. I said killing, you wouldn't use that term, but the argument is the same. Abortion is not the answer to abusive childhoods. You are right, it may lead to it, but that doesn't mean Abortion is a good way to fix the problem. You are removing the victim rather than punishing the perpetrator. Sorry about your friend who would rather die. I do think it's better that he has the choice to choose to live or not now though. Better he choose whether he lives or dies rather than his parent. I also think he shouldn't choose either, and should live. I will pray for him. I know how he feels to probably a similar degree. And it is murder in my opinion. It's distinct DNA, a unique living creature. Breath doesn't determine life, unique DNA does. This is why life starts at conception like real science supports. It's killing life, but I guess that isn't murder in your eyes.

[@arcious60]

@@u.s.citizen9933 so how come parents get to choose on matters like their children getting married and many other things but not abortion? It's only murder in the sense of killing a possibility.

[@u.s.citizen9933]

@@arcious60 parents shouldn't choose who their child marries unless the child allows it. The parents aren't the ones making the commitment, the couple is. Also, abortion is a permanent choice to destroy a life form. Marriage, even if it was forced, does not have to be permanent and life ending. Science says abortion is more than simply killing a possibility. It's killing unique human DNA that would turn into a full human being under normal circumstances.

[@Lovestay822]

@@arcious60 just because it isn’t born doesn’t mean it isn’t living. When a fetus is born, it’s still technically attached to the mom. When it’s detached from the mom and breathing, it’s still underdeveloped and won’t have any memories or true autonomy for a while. Attached from the mother or not, it’s still a living human. Science proves that. And why the parents can make decisions about other things is because in the case of pregnancy, there’s now a third person that is vulnerable and helpless and needs to be protected

[@mariingitsauve7196]

Honestly, no one should be a mother just because they think babies are cute. You do realize they will get older and you have to love them just as much.

[@victoriarotramel2274]

Same reason animal shelters are filled to the brim with 1 year old dogs. People get them as puppies because their cute, but then they grow up and aren’t cute anymore so they are dropped off at shelters. It’s much more socially unacceptable to do the same with children but the feeling is still there.

[@Not_convinced]

Oh shut up

[@otakumangastudios3617]

I’ve unfortunately met some of these people. There’s a lot of them in the south and it’s no wonder people have BPD on the onset of six months old. I also heard a mother complain like as if her some unusual quirk of her kids that they have individual interests, get themselves dirty, like to scream and yell and make noises and like to play. I think she was one of those who just procreated because she thought babies were cute and like being sexually intimate

[@ppp-zi3uu]

I've literally seen people consider their baby a "dress-up doll" ,and post pictures of their baby in cute outfit on TikTok for clout. It's quite a trend in my country unfortunately...

[@letsalllovelein]

@@thealgorithmluvsu3788 that's not an excuse lmao. most ppl don't grow up to be serial killers, dictators, hard-core criminals etc. stand behind a better argument.

[@jscriber100]

"Society sucks at providing accessibility options." Regardless of what side you're own you can't disagree with this. More importantly, the Gordan Ramsey accent was terrible and I loved every bit of it!!

[@Trapping_ackbar7]

Why do we assume it’s always societies responsibility? A larger discussion should be had about how much responsibility the individual should hold. And no I’m not anti arthritis, just wondering why abortions should always be a state responsibility when someone’s personal decision led to their baby 99% of the time. Most people still want it rare, and taking the birth control approach incentives it, not the opposite.

[@haichoi8799]

@@Trapping_ackbar7 so ur telling me that since i've got arthritis, I have to just suck it up and do everything myself? Ur tellin me that it's my responsibility to navigate this world and diagnose myself? Ur tellin me that it's up to the disabled person who literally cannot do what an able bodied person can, is forced to do what an able bodied person can?

[@tekohaatawhai3697]

@@haichoi8799 I'm holding out for a reply to this

[@pencilcase2303]

​@@Trapping_ackbar7 I agree, there should be more discussion about this topic, in order to clarify the individual's responsibilities and society's responsibilities in this subject. It takes two to tango.

[@Trapping_ackbar7]

@@haichoi8799 never said any of that, crazy how one glance and you’ve created a whole caricature in your mind. All I’m saying is it’s not so clear abortions should be provided whenever people want when 99% of the time someone partook in an act that the natural outcome is pregnancy. When does personal responsibility kick in for terminating the fetus? Because most **normal** people still think it should be safe legal and *rare.* But yeah take all the nuance out and make me sound like society has no obligation to the downtrodden because that’s just you acting in good faith, right? Weirdo

[@jady_vanity4015]

Making abortions illegal will just make people want to give themselves an abortion in a more dangerous way. People deserve to have a right to get an abortion.

[@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese]

Non sequitur: false dilemma.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

This is completely untrue. As the above comment said. Or rather, it isn't that it it is untrue. It is that it doesn't logically follow.

[@Mole-Esther]

​@@Very_Silly_Individualyes it does people will get abortions no matter what just dangerously if it is illegal

[@Randive]

Nothing, but yourself and others grant you the PRIVILEGE (not right) to murder your unborn child. It is not your divine right to murder your kids. I don’t care if you or others do though. I am very much a moral relativist and so I will only care if someone in my life undertook it or is subjected to it. For the women opening their legs to random men and killing their offspring, it is not necessary for me to care. That doesn’t mean I don’t have empathy for the poor child. Still it is a shameful practice, but I won’t go out to preach on my stances.

[@Randive]

@@Mole-Esthernot if the culture is changed from a nihilistic, hedonistic one.

[@roehanostornsyn3367]

My abortion was basically on the table when I was conceived. I was an accident between two people that didn't even know each other, so when the idea of "we are pregnant came up", it was more like "you are pregnant! Get rid of that thing!" But, my upbringing was pretty difficult. These people tried to make the picturesque family nearly overnight due to their mistakes, but the natural chemistry was nonexistent and their attachment to me was touch-and-go. The results on my childhood were cataclysmic, and the damage to my psyche took nearly 5 years to repair. Oftentimes, I've had to look to religion for answers as to my purpose, because the stark truth is that while some people have stories where their parents took charge, and assumed a role and made the child feel welcome, I was more of a hot potato baby. When I think about this question, "Should they have aborted me?" I think maybe I would have been a top candidate to be aborted, and it would have prevented a lot of suffering. I'm neurodivergent as a mf as well, which compounded that suffering. It's tough to say - I would ultimately rather exist, but I understand both sides of this argument.

[@Hashashin_420]

Exactly I would never want to be aborted

[@strawpiglet]

I think all existence comes back to spiritual purpose. We naturally want to minimize suffering, but when does stopping suffering become worth losing a life? Suffering is a funny thing. With suffering comes greater awareness. So, it's valuable, but if I see it coming, I do everything possible to avoid it. When I see you ask if they "should" have aborted you, I feel grateful they didn't. I believe you would spiritually exist either way, but at least in the moment, I wouldn't have known anything about you if you hadn't been born as a human being and expressed some of your experience right here.

[@havenbastion]

Send like they have it a go, which is more than a lot of intentional parents seen to manage.

[@roehanostornsyn3367]

@@strawpiglet Thanks, man :D

[@strawpiglet]

@@roehanostornsyn3367 :)

[@SuperAgentWashington]

Something that is often lost is that even though I am pro-choice, I hate abortion. I wish 0 abortions were performed every year, and the fact that the same people who want to restrict abortion also dont want to take steps that reduce unwanted pregnancy baffles my mine. Whether it is legal or not, is obviously the most important question, but so much is wrong with how we view reproductive health that isnt related to abortion at all.

[@irenicrose]

I’m prolife, and wish we could reach a place where there was prevention of abortion having to be an option in the first place. I also think that women should have the ability to raise their child if they get pregnant in less than ideal circumstances, and not have to feel like abortion is their only option. I think it’s risky that we put so much weight on abortion and the legality keeps slipping later and later into pregnancy, even some states are trying to legalize infants who survive abortions dying at the hands of their mother neglecting them as not infanticide. I believe it would be much better to prevent abortion form having to occur in the first place. Unfortunately those in power in politics only want to yell at each other and not reach a level playing ground.

[@nualawillman8735]

@@irenicrose I mean, fine, but what if someone a) doesn’t want the kid, and/or b) doesn’t want to be pregnant. I think some people are fine giving a child up to a loving home but what if you don’t even want to go through a pregnancy? It’s a big violation of that person’s bodily autonomy to make them carry a baby to term, and it will drastically change their life even if they give the baby up for adoption. I’m not sure what you mean by “prevent abortion from even happening in the first place”, I guess, and that sounds like it could be good or bad tbh. And as for the mothers who kill their existing, birthed babies via abuse or neglect; that’s exactly why we should have abortion. Not that it would totally stop that from happening, but it definitely makes it a bigger problem when fewer people who actually want an abortion are able to get one, even if they know they’re going to be a bad parent. Heck some people aren’t even good at taking care of themselves While they’re pregnant, and those people should have access to healthcare that enables them to not ruin the lives of themselves and their potential future children.

[@jedimaster0667]

@@irenicrose the solution to preventing abortion (in many cases that aren't just about the marginal cases where pregnancies have health complications that are absolutely unpreventable), many solutions to preventing most abortions have to do with social safety nets, robust sex Ed, raising the min wage, taxpayer funded college, taxpayer funded healthcare aka Medicare 4 all, etc. Which many other pro-life orgs and individuals do not support. If preventing most abortions is the goal. Then making it so people are educated about their bodies, have access to controception, have access to pregnancy tests, Medicare 4 all, and overall be rewarded for hard work so people can lift themselves up into a higher financial status, all of these then are the goal too.

[@thehundredthmonkey5972]

I think a start In teaching responsibility and consequences. People wanting bodily freedom which is understandable but requires awareness of self and all that comes with that. I think society is cultivating a generation that carry an underlying sense of self hatred, hidden behind their pride and ideology. The human experience can be a sacred and beautiful experience but we tend to not see it as so. I think by starting to simplifying one’s understanding and by bringing oneself as close to how nature intended. Yes nature can be cruel sometimes but most always when that happens it is out of a true necessity not just a modern convenience.

[@irenicrose]

@@jedimaster0667 I actually agree with education about how bodies work. I'm personally a Christian, so I know there are many conservative people who are against sexual education, however I know from experience that education is better than none. I'm actually from California so I had to take an in depth course on birth control methods, STDs and learned how abstinence is the best option to avoid pregnancy and STDs in public school. I moved to the south last year and I've seen way more pregnant teenagers here, and I took a health class to graduate and there was NO mention about sexual health! People believe educating their children will make them more promiscuous, however for me knowing the risks and knowing I can't afford to get pregnant or STDs, along with my religious beliefs, has made me choose to abstain from having sex.

[@chipmunkpark8826]

I am from a country (Paraguay) where abortion is banned, and women go to jail for getting abortions. Trust me, there are tons of 11 ans 13 year old girls who get pregnant from their abusers, and then forced to give birth. And also women whose lives get destroyed after having a baby because their family don't support them nor the father (in Paraguay is normalized this..the single mothers) As a woman, I am afraid of being sexually intimate with someone since none of the "contraception" that are available come with 100% efficiency. My own aunt got pregnant while being on the pill🤡 so yeah... it's horrible to live in a country like this

[@piakrut3476]

I am glad i am asexual but as a woman i am afraid to be raped now. I cannot go outside without someone who is stronger than me

[@jenniferskweter]

@G24 Honestly, your opinion is absolutely worthless garbage if you don't have a uterus.

[@mochihamster2794]

@Bobrzyca Pola That’s your response to children being raped? Maybe someone should check your PC.

[@mochihamster2794]

@G24 And no one has MORE value than another person and thus the right to use their body without their consent.

[@mochihamster2794]

@G24 Those children will likely DIE giving birth. You are putting non sentient fetus’ life above theirs. That is disgustingly inhumane and not “pro life” at all.

[@xSTTS]

i remember being a girl and realizing i would eventually in my adulthood get pregnant and having a hard relationship with that, i didn’t want to be pregnant it scared me like i was at a loss of autonomy

[@Name..........]

Wear condoms, and don't have sex directly before or after your period. You don't have to get pregnant just because your a female, the act of sex doesn't immediately equal out to a baby unless your being careless.

[@markjcm8968]

​@ImAKangwithnokingdombeing scared of getting pregnant is completely normal, douchebag

[@ClementeUsonTorner]

It's nice being self centered.

[@askosefamerve]

​@@ClementeUsonTornerIt's so nice to choose whether or not to have children.

[@ClementeUsonTorner]

@@askosefamerve it's nice let to extinction an species because of self centered ideas.

[@travkenn1019]

I find it highly ironic that people think nothing is valued higher than life, while at the same time having little or no regard for the quality of that life.

[@baonemogomotsi7138]

I find it ironic that you don't realize that we are all a part of said ''people'', including you B.

[@martinvera4720]

I agree with your sentiment. I think we should care for the quality of life. I do think abortion is pushed a bit too much though. I think abortion is a horrible thing to do. I personally think people should live as if abortion is illegal, but have the option be there. I don’t like the government getting into things. I do think though that people should strive to be more disciplined and take responsibility. Everyone has their own journey though, so that’s why I’m against forcing decisions.

[@kbluestar96]

⁠@@martinvera4720 Agreed. Abortion is a medical procedure and shouldn’t ever be political.

[@elijahobviously1288]

I find it highly ironic that you think you can have a regard for your own quality of life when you're dead.

[@elijahobviously1288]

@@kbluestar96 If abortion is a medical procedure then what illness does it treat? Which medical experts perform it? In what medical facilities? Oh wait, pregnancy is not a disease, abortionists aren't required to practice medicine, and 93% of OB/GYNs refuse to perform it, and 97% of abortions are not performed in objective medical facilities. Doesn't sound like a medical procedure to me...

[@musica1120]

I’m so glad you discussed the fact that fetuses are dependent on the pregnant person. It’s so disheartening to hear everyone focus purely on the baby and give no thought to the parent housing the fetus. Both are important to consider in my opinion, but the complete disregard for the pregnant person is so dehumanizing and frankly ignorant

[@white4845]

Its actually the opposite, everyone give more importance to the W O M A N. than the one they give to the baby. And yeah I agree tho

[@ivetterodriguez9628]

Some people will look like "everyone" or the majority if the opposition is all we pay attention to. Is it sad that baby's potential life is glossed over by pro-choicers? Yes, it is. But whether your pro-life or prochoice doesn't mean you don't acknowledge that to yourself. Pro-choicers just see it as a given that it's sad and don't mope and tell everyone how sad and unfair it is. Because it's assumed to be obvious and no one has to explain that to anyone. What makes someone prochoice is that they prioritize the will of the woman despite it. Believing that it's intrusive to make such personal decisions for a bearing woman. And sometimes some of these pro-choicers come off as rude and blunt because thiey're tired of the same old tested arguments. I'll take a woman's will over feeling this vague impersonal sadness any day. And maybe that's harsh to you but I don't you think it's naive to romanticize pregnancy, birth, and motherhood so much that personal desire for these things aren't the reason and instead societal pressure? That's not love, that's not desire, that's peer pressure. Motherhood should be seen as an internal desire and not as a external and societal obligation. You can't obligate someone to love. That's not love. Ideally mother's should want to be lmothers and become, not become mothers and hopefully come around to it.

[@Mole-Esther]

@@white4845 no they don't people just say that the fetus has life at contraception and choose that to be the end of debate

[@white4845]

@@Mole-Esther they have life, it’s like saying a children doesn’t have life just for being children, I’ll remind you that being a fetus is a phase of human growth just as Adulthood and Childhood.

[@tahasabah3348]

Pregnent women not pregnent person .

[@thefirstface4575]

I am one of those exceptions people talk about. I was an abstaining Christian when I was gangraped and tortured and left bleeding to death and pregnant and pro life people often look me in the eye and tell me I am the exception BUT cases like mine are a tiny percentage of overall abortions. The percentage is their talking point, their routine and rehearsed dismissal and they move on, a majority accepting my abortion as a necessary evil. The question is, why would that baby be less alive, valuable, suffering or deserving of a right to life because of how they were forced into the world? Why would forced pregnancy be cruel and unusual and unfair on me but not on others? Are they admitting that pregnancy is a punishment for the immoral choice to consent? A choice I wasn’t part of and therefore can’t be sentenced to a year or unpaid labour producing domestic product? I maintained my pregnancy because of childhood and early pregnancy (yes right after I was raped) indoctrination and propaganda from a christianity based cult, I was 5 months pregnant when the pain and the cruelty of it toppled in on me and I tried to hang myself. Forced (by rape, manipulation and inaccess) pregnancy was more brutal than gang rape, it was more brutal than torture, it was more brutal that being stabbed, it was more brutal than finding out my whole life inside of religion was a lie, it was worse than anything comparably temporary I ever experienced, it felt like a permanent violation of my consent in my most intimate places, it felt like something sacred was being taken from me not taking place inside me, it felt like my dream to be a mother in the future was being turned into the cruelest joke, it felt like a spectacle as people in my church touched my bump and stared at my breasts and vagina and forced me to wear a wedding ring so i didn’t stumble people and lied to their children that id sinned because rape is too private and whispered about how I’d be giving birth before ever being loved. When I spoke to professionals, obgyns, psychologists and advocates, they all made it clear that this is how women routinely describe forced pregnancy in general not just forced pregnancy from rape, I was not an exception to the rule, I was the rule. At that time, I wasn’t aware that most of what I knew about pregnancy itself was propaganda, incorrect information about fetal development and romanticisation of pregnancy, knitted together in your mothers womb and all of that but regardless of believing everything pro life people believed and being pro life myself I guess (while minding my business) by association with my religion, I came to understand that even if it was cruel and immoral to eject uterine tenants, it would always be second to immoral cruelty and control of forced pregnancy; my suffering and the ptsd inflicted on my conscious desperate brain and body is more disgusting and unjustifiable than any argument from disgust. My birth ruined my body and my life, I will never be able to carry another pregnancy, I will never get to choose to make another me with my lover, I will never bleed as I was designed to and I need to undergo extensive treatment to have penetrative sex again. Nobody deserves to go through the crimes committed against my body and that’s exactly why they are illegal; more importantly to me and more relevant to the ongoing emergency is that nobody deserves to go through the state enforced violence of forced pregnancy. No exceptions, we are the rule.

[@robinb9359]

My heart shatters for you, the trauma you had to undergo was unimaginable, I sit here in awe at what I've just read. Your situation is the exact reason why a choice should be given. I really don't know what else to say just that youve lit a fire in my heart and I have a passion to continue fighting for my right to choose

[@Thatgirly777]

What you went through is terrible and the church you went through was (obviously) toxic. If you didn't know, the 'marriage' you described is called a "shotgun marriage". There are no verses in the Bible that say if your a victim of rape to do that, if you don't want to. They are not mandatory. I can understand why you would do so because of the shame which is so bad that you even had to go through that and I understand how it would hard to talk abt to others. Especially considering the fact that the ppl at your church were toxic as well. That is not the message the church should give off. And I do believe that if you are a victim of rape or any reason, that you should be able to seek an abortion. And the Bible is clearly against rape and punishing the abuser in many Bible verses. You went to a terrible, misogynistic church and I do hope that you can heal from your trauma because I can't imagine ever going through that. I honestly don't blame you for disliking religion afterwards coming from a religious person (christian) myself.

[@Superszyga]

It really is terrible. I'm sorry to hear what happened to you and what people have done to you. I hope you will find joy and peace in upcoming years of your life. Also, I suppose that in the meantime you lost your faith because all of that. I wish you find your fullfillment and way to God, he still loves you and always will, despite what people have done to you and what happened to you. I feel so so sorry for you. (excuse me my bad english)

[@BushidoBrownSama]

You never should have had to go through any of that, I'm sorry for all of your many losses. Thank you for sharing such a painful, personal story.

[@safir2241]

this is always such a weird point for me. why is a fetus' life suddenly not that valuable when the mother was forced to have it? feels like a moral compromise on their part. also, thanks for sharing this.

[@mzcyberbat]

Regardless of where you stand - the hospital refusing to help a premie newborn is immoral. This does happen in America. Mothers literally watch their babies die in their arms because the hospitals just refuse to try. It hopefully is just a few cases but that's so damn harsh.

[@alexisventura7191]

damn. i was a premie myself- only 5 and a half months. i was in the icu for more than 2 months... and survived with no issues from that. makes me wonder just how many of these children, that were very much wanted, wouldn't have survived...😊

[@atlas956]

you know, it depends. if the newborn is able to survive with help, okay. but most very premature babies can and will not survive, and it would be wrong to give the parents hope. if your doctor tells you „no, we will not try to keep that baby alive for just a few more hours“, they will usually have a very good reason. giving the grieving parents a massive medical bill for measures you know would not make that child viable to live is not exactly morally good. if „killing newborns by neglect through medical personnel“ is actually a thing, though, then that would obviously be objectionable.

[@lovelysakurapetalsyt]

If the child is going to die for sure, there's not really much you can do besides try to research and help more

[@Screebles]

@@atlas956 if I was a parent, knowing that the doctors didn’t try all they could to keep my child alive would haunt me my entire life. I would resent the doctors so much

[@W333L]

This is the same logic as “we should keep all brain dead patients alive for the rest of their natural lives in the hope that they’re the first ones to make a full recovery”. It’s a waste of resources to attempt to help a premature baby in some circumstances, and would only cause further suffering.

[@sashre3693]

My high school teacher made me really hate philosophy, but you seem to make it accessible and quite fascinating Thank you for this video, it really made me feel that philosophy is not just some stupid rambling

[@leroyjenkins1249]

Same. My Ma was obsessed with philosophy and never forgave me for picking psychology over it in school. Back then, I just heard her rants about "actually learning how to think" and thought it was a subject for pretentious people. But Sun def. gave me a new view on things. I'm obsessed with her videos now, lol

[@rsmlinar1720]

Im becoming obsessed with philosophy, but more and more i have a feeling phylosophising doesnt do me eny good, just distracts me from more important things in lifa. And that is ironicly a philosophical thought

[@intellectually_lazy]

philosophy is awesome! your teacher and leroy's mom just aren't good at teaching to yours and his respective learning styles

[@intellectually_lazy]

@@rsmlinar1720 you can learn a lot from philosophy. maybe it can even help you live, but it's no substitute for living

[@LostinTranslation479]

In my humble opinion, aborting a baby when the woman isn’t ready or doesn’t want to be a mother, or when the parents aren’t financially capable of providing the basic needs and rights to him/her/them is far better than keeping the baby and raising an individual with emotional issues or in poverty. And remember that making abortion illegal won’t stop it, it will stop SAFE ABORTION

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

Sounds like an early death sentence

[@LostinTranslation479]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj I prefer death over a trashy life.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@LostinTranslation479 Why is that relevant? you're welcomed to end yourself but that doesn't give you the right to murder your children just because you would be determined to give them a shitty life.

[@salamander4173]

The mother does NOT get to determine the value of life of her baby. Just because they live in poverty, they don't deserve to live? I've been living poor most of my life, but I would rather live than dead. And even if I don't, that should be my choice, not my mother's

[@LostinTranslation479]

@Leon lionhardt oh so it’s okay for a mother to give birth to a child and throw him away to an orphanage even though she might be alive and capable of raising them ‘?

[@queerbotanicalqueen]

As someone who was nearly aborted, I’ll admit it does hurt a bit to know, but it’s nothing compared to the pain and trauma my mom would’ve had to experience. I have a severe heart defect but when given proper treatment and care, it can be managed. However, before the doctors figured out what I had, they had some theories, and a lot of them were terminal conditions that would kill me before I even exited the womb. My mom and dad were given the choice to either terminate or keep the pregnancy. My parents seriously considered terminating because they wanted to be humane to me and my mom. Thankfully the doctors found what it was and that it was survivable without intense suffering, so they decided to keep me and fight for my life. If my mom would’ve actually had a terminally ill fetus and didn’t have the option to terminate, it would’ve been so traumatizing. She would’ve had to carry a baby whom she knew wouldn’t even be alive for half the pregnancy to term and give birth to a dead baby. Pregnancy is already stressful enough, but imagine the mental pressure of carrying a pregnancy that you know won’t survive. This would’ve been absolutely terrible. Also, you don’t know everyone’s reasons for abortion and you don’t need to know it. You just need to respect people’s right to termination. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but you need to respect it and not try to take it away.

[@tia2676]

It doesn’t hurt to know. You’re just sensitive. I’m angry that I wasn’t aborted.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

I don't understand, so on the one hand the right to murder depends on the reasons yet we're not supposed to know what the reasons for murdering the child are. Why bother making up an excuse at all?

[@queerbotanicalqueen]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj first off, it’s not the right to murder. It would be murder if the baby was already born and then killed. This is a fetus that is not fully developed. And yes, you need to respect people’s right to abortion without knowing their reasoning. Because a lot of the time, it has to do with some type of trauma. And it’s not your business to be up in someone’s trauma.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@queerbotanicalqueen Almost all abortions in the US are purely elective, motivations like rape or medical emergencies are exceedingly rare. So you're lying. And of course we're talking about the right to murder, what ontological distinction is there between a human in the womb and one outside of it? It certainly isn't development because that must imply the baby doesn't go from being an animal of a different species to being human at some arbitrary point during the pregnancy. You can say we should not value underdeveloped people, but that's just conceding eugenics should be applied to humans. Who else is undesirable? You want to tell me your personal list of groups you would like to eradicate? Beside your children of course... The fact is that there is no such right to murder but I will grant that abject motivations make it that much more despicable.

[@raulponce9012]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Well first of all we are talking of abortion as in the right for each person to deside in their individual case, not to make that decision for others, that already makes it not eugenics because it's the choice of the host and not the choice of some governmental agencie to decide who should or shouldn't be born based on genetic bullshit. Also we can determine that a fetus remains a fetus until there is still a necessity for it to stay inside and connected with it's host

[@stanzacosmi]

My birthgiver (key words) didn't get an adoption, but rather put me up for adoption, and it's a miracle I even came to be. She smoked, did drugs, drank, all while pregnant with me until she found out, when she switched to tylenol. She was also deaf. However, the damage was done, and I have a cocktail of neurological developmental disorders like autism and tourettes (mild), and the family that adopted me, that I knew for a majority of my life, I caused undue problems for them and it's not something that could be avoided. I nearly committed... you know what, 8 times in my life, long before I even found out what was wrong with me. I wish my birthgiver was able to get an abortion so I wouldn't have caused the undue problems.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Again, you're just mentally ill. And unfortunately, that means I can not take your argument seriously. I mean, come on. You're literally saying, "I wish I were dead," and you think that's gonna convince someone like I (who believes life is inherently valuable). Am gonna be swayed? The tragic circumstances that happened to you do not justify killing you.

[@tictac9229]

I'm sorry you're suicidal but wishing your mom aborted you isn't a good use of your life. I hope you will find happiness and joy

[@stanzacosmi]

@@tictac9229 i'm not suicidal anymore. I have people to live for like good friends (one of which risked their life to stop me from committing). I still never asked to be brought into this world and wish that was avoided so everything I caused never happened.

[@tictac9229]

@@stanzacosmi never be ashamed of your life, to your friends and family you are a blessing it is good that you are here with us

[@happyscavenger8940]

You are a miracle, and the world is better with you here. You are not a burden. I hope you find peace and fulfillment :)

[@yvonneinreallife]

If my mother had aborted me I wouldn’t have had to deal with the childhood trauma that came from her not being in the right headspace for another child.

[@johnkingston1337]

Clearly she wanted you tho otherwise she would have given you up for adoption, left you at the fire station, or aborted you. So whether or not abortion was legal, you still would have been born. Unless u wanted the state to intervene and force her to get an abortion like in China?

[@maradegroot12]

​@@johnkingston1337Parents dont think of those options most of the time

[@cinnacinnamonrollgirl]

@@johnkingston1337most parents are narcissistic

[@c.aldersop]

Damn that one hit a little too close to home

[@ThomasAquinasFan]

@@cinnacinnamonrollgirl That is very untrue

[@veasaan3331]

the conversation around "right to life" always has me wanting to expand the conversation around who has the "right to die" also. this was some great and nuanced research, thank you.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@t.n.2342]

Hey vea saan. What does ur comment mean, if u don't mind me asking?

[@arha13]

Sometimes it feels endlessly cruel that we don’t recognise the right to die, especially since all of us were given life without any choice in the matter.

[@mayas883]

Yeah exactly! A case by the human rights court actually stated that the right to privacy/private life gave them the right to choose to die. In many countries euthanasia is legal when the patient is unbearably suffering and express in full awareness that they want to die. But following the thought of this video, one could wonder whether people that are in comas for years or dementia patients that are very far gone still have a right to life. And one could also wonder whether it is not humane to end someones suffering while they are not conscious enough to express it

[@MrPeaceGuy54]

@@arha13 It's not as if non-existent people have a desire to not exist that is frustrated by their creation. However, I concur with the idea that people should have the right to find a painless way out if they cannot find any help.

[@pythonjava6228]

The abortion vs infanticide conversation disappears if we consider that most abortions happen before 13 weeks. Abortions that happen after that are usually because of health conditions facing the mother or foetus and are sometimes medically necessary

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

It's a formal issue, if the line between abortion and infanticide can't be established then abortion is infanticide. That's the whole point, it doesn't go away because children are killed at 13 weeks or 1 year

[@carrela1000]

Doesn't matter. If the fetus is a baby then whether it's 13 weeks or not, the dilemma still exists

[@lizzy7651]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj It's because 13 weeks mark the end of the first trimester and you can still have a natural miscarriage at that stage. Abortion is just a provoked one.

[@ineedhoez]

@@carrela1000 we are calling a fertilized egg a baby?

[@user-wt5if6rx8m]

@@carrela1000 It's not a baby. Case closed

[@sobekmania]

I was talking to my mom about this topic and she told me, “Why should some young girls be expected to take care of a human being when they themselves aren’t fully human yet?” I still think about that a lot.

[@jypsridic]

Why are they participating in the creation of a human being if they're not ready yet?

[@GetWellSoonR.E.M.]

@@jypsridicDo you only have sex when you have the intent of conceiving a child? A majority of people do not. And gay people exist who can’t naturally conceive. Plus, rape is a thing. As long as people can be conceived through forceful and non consensual means, this argument is redundant.

[@TertiaryQuota]

​@@jypsridic oh so if a teen girl has intercourse, she should be punished with the burden of pregnancy? This is what u sound like

[@jypsridic]

@@TertiaryQuota yes if you take actions you should deal with the consequences of them. If a teen dude knocks a chick up he should take responsibility too. Why is equality so hard for feminists to understand?

[@jypsridic]

@@TertiaryQuota Men are taught from age 10 to not stick it in anyone unless we're willing to risk becoming a father. Why should it be any different for women?

[@juliart189]

i had an abortion at 15 and this was helpful in not self-blaming

[@makaylat7616]

I hope you’re doing okay, you’re very brave 💗

[@Screebles]

Sending you love 💗 hope you’re doing well right now

[@SolomonMagnus819]

That’s fucked

[@BD-lo3zg]

@@SolomonMagnus819you’re fucked

[@kriptionite8412]

Don’t blame yourself for getting an abortion when you KNOW that you aren’t ready to raise children. You ultimately made the right decision! 💗 (You and the baby would’ve probably suffered otherwise)

[@ariellyons1488]

I really enjoyed the philosophical breakdown of this topic. As an American, I find it frustrating that many politicians ignore the factors that lead to abortion and the cost of caring for said child. Politicians use this issue to gain votes and do not support any public support programs. Overall, super frustrating as a uterus-having citizen who is pro-choice.

[@shippo4ever101]

"Uterus having citizen" 😭

[@therealbs2000]

Uterus having citizen...? is this a slang term for something

[@ariellyons1488]

@@therealbs2000 The term is to include people who are non-binary or trans people. It’s a new term that has been shared around quite recently with the new debates. It’s a slang term for inclusion.

[@therealbs2000]

@@ariellyons1488 thank you!

[@kazuha6035]

@@serenityssolace why tho? It’s including more genders and people, which is nice

[@BunnyValentine439]

None of us CHOSE to live. That was a choice made by our parents. We never had agency in the process whether or not we were aborted, given up for adoption is also lacking agency, being kept in a potentially bad situation is lacking agency, possibly killing our own mother in child birth was not our choice. When it comes to early parenthood and us as infants nothing was our choice. So why is it any different with abortion than any of those other myriad of situations? We do not gain any agency until a certain age regardless. If my mother deemed it the best choice to abort me due to the circumstances I WAS born in (Her being unsuitable and physically abusive, as well as being born with a number of issues from birth.) I would have found it reasonable and to some degree even favorable than what I went through. The long term suffering I went through in many ways I feel was not worth me being born. I am alive, and do not wish to end my life, But I never chose to be here. I just figure if I am I may as well try to find meaning in it all.

[@Drake00000010]

That's false. You and me were created by choices just like everything else in life. You literally said it right now, you do not wish to end your life. As for agency, you think a baby or a young child can live without their parents? Spoilers, they cant. They need to be fed and watched with care. By your logic, babies and young children who do not have agency on their own gives the parents the choice to end their life.

[@BunnyValentine439]

@@Drake00000010 Read the part about there being the difference as listed in the video before you go jumping to absurd conclusions. Also yes it IS their choice but at that point it is morally wrong and is murder. Abusing me was their choice. Keeping me even when we were so poor we lived out of a car was their choice instead of giving me up for adoption or something. It does not make it right. The distinction is my potential to be a member of society was met at that point, not simply some point in the future. If I even was not still born or some shit. Potential and BEING involved in society and in people around me lives are two very different things.

[@mochihamster2794]

@@Drake00000010 LOL you know this is so funny b/c I’m sure if you asked the guy in your pfp, Tomura, “do you wish you’d been aborted” there’s a big chance that he, and a fair amount of his comrades, would say yes.

[@mochihamster2794]

@@Drake00000010 It’s not the same because at that point they are literally living off their body, inside of them. they can just cease their parental rights. Also a fetus is not sentient. So this comparison is invalid, for more than one reason. No one has a right to anyone’s bodies and organs not even fetuses. You get a choice on whether or not to be an organ donor, even when you’re dead. Even though that can result in other people’s deaths, children’s deaths, it is your right. You want female bodied people to have less rights than the DEAD.

[@Drake00000010]

@@BunnyValentine439 So you get to create what's morally right and what not? Why do you think there's a huge fuzz over this? It's because for many, a fetus is a living being and killing it is wrong. You don't get to use the moral card when it suits your narrative. A child and a fetus will become a person eventually thanks to their parents. The difference between them is semantics.

[@lightfallonthehead3842]

feels like i am listening to a cool friend talking about something they are genuinely interested in, but it still leaves so much up to the viewers to make up their minds on! really good content man!

[@williansnobre]

I am pro-choice but I always suggest people should make their choices ahead of time, to deal with results of choices and not consequences of mistakes, and one of the best ways to make better choices by taking part in honest discussions. Prevention or quick solutions are better than postponed ones.

[@franjkav]

You’re assuming there’s a mistake or that others use the classification

[@williansnobre]

@@franjkav What I am calling mistake is waiting till later to make a decision and facing worse consequences because of it.

[@intellectually_lazy]

yup, i'm an ally, you say, but to be fair and balanced, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. nice try, herb!

[@williansnobre]

@@intellectually_lazy I don't claim to be an ally, I just think people should have a choice. I also think that people should be aware beforehand of the consequences of those choices.

[@TierZoo]

Thanks for this! Your video touched on arguments I hadn't heard before regarding this topic

[@larrycooper8837]

i really didn’t expect to see tier zoo here lol

[@Marco.05]

Cheetah mid

[@Ur_N0.1_fan]

Are baby’s mid TierZoo?

[@ollolool]

You’re just everywhere I go holy shit

[@The1nvisibleJeevas]

TierZoo :0

[@neosr.1744]

This themes should be discussed more in our world without everyone immediately insulting you for not agreeing with your stance. Having a respectful and productive discussion is always a good way to listen to new ideas and develop new knowledge about things you might not knew about. Because at the end of the day that’s the point learning, studying and understanding this concepts in order to understand it even more. Amazing video and amazing channel, nice job Olivia 💜

[@gliiitched]

Emphasis on discussions, lol. Debates are pointless for sharing ideas and information because they do the opposite of what’s necessary to open your mind to these ideas.

[@neosr.1744]

@@gliiitched When there’s a healthy debate you can understand 2 or more different stances within a specific topic. A discussion is more likely to happen when the people being a part of it agree in the discussion point, so it’s adding information and points of view to a idea you already believed in. In a debate there’s 2 or more different stances and if it a productive and elaborate you will understand where the other person view is coming from even you don’t agree with it you will understand there logic

[@gliiitched]

@@neosr.1744 I see that, but what I was more trying to get at is that a discussion is more productive for sharing ideas, because the point of one is not to posture two opposing viewpoints or to “win” over one’s opponent. Discussion in this case would simply be the sharing of ideas without any underlying goal, be it “winning the debate,” or developing one’s own future arguments. It can create new ideas and change opinions far better than debates because it avoids the self-preservation and giving into one’s cognitive bias that can follow a debate. Basically, I see it as having less moving parts, and therefore, less potential points for failure.

[@neosr.1744]

@@gliiitched I agree with this as well, believe me I couldn’t agree more especially having in consideration how debates are used nowadays when the point isn’t the share ideas but to win no matter what. It ends up being not who knows more but rather who convinces the more people to join them. I see a debate more as a conversation where 2 opposing ideas try to understand each others beliefs to see where they come from and why they believe in what they do. And well having in consideration nowadays debates are more insults than arguments I see your point. I see you’re a person of knowledge

[@gliiitched]

@@neosr.1744 And your definition of debate is almost my exact definition of a discussion, although, my discussion involves everyone influencing each other’s beliefs in order to create new questions and challenge previously held ideas.

[@iamthinking2252_]

Thanks for this deep dive. I’m pro-choice, yet even I have a gut feeling that a line would exist somewhere from conception to birth, and don’t know where it should be Well, I still don’t, but I think it nicely articulated the gut sense of why I don’t feel the same about “fetal personhood” When its existence is fully bound to their pregnant mother vs a baby

[@ricardoavacado3901]

It is objectively at conception. That is the point human life begins, when your DNA that maps out every characteristic of you is created. If you make the boundary at birth, well you're just braindead if you think that. And making the boundary anywhere in between doesn't make sense, there wasn't any magic that happened the minute before and after the two month mark. We don't classify people being human based on how old they are. Human rights, belong to all humans. Accept that. Pro-life is the only way.

[@ricardoavacado3901]

@@iamjinsmirror3734 Neither do I. Both get to live. Your point?

[@ricardoavacado3901]

@@iamjinsmirror3734 In any way? If a random person assaulted you, should they get the death penalty?

[@ricardoavacado3901]

@@iamjinsmirror3734 I did, don't you see that the pregnancy situation has even MORE intimacy than the random person? But we don't kill the random person, but apparently the fetus can be. Yes in the cases that it's between the mother's life, or fetuses' life, the fetus must be aborted. But the fetus is objectively a person, since conception. Because we believe human rights, the fetus should not be able to be aborted outside of these edge cases.

[@phamdung3884]

@@ricardoavacado3901if you don’t mind pretending you aren’t talking about abortion for a sec, do you happen to be afraid of death, religious or know

[@mikeharris1987]

This is the most nuanced, well-formed discussion on abortion I've ever heard, and I swear to God I just heard her say "slurp that mommy milk" I'm never going to recover

[@jung.o.2080]

This topic reminds me of this experiment where if you take two groups of people; one given a toy that moves and is given a name; another with a toy that also moves but has no name, the subjects will feel guilty and genuine moral disturbance when asked to destroy the named toy. Compared to the other group, which feel no attachment. Basically, once we give anything some human trait, like a name, personification descriptors or even a personality, then that thing becomes human. It suddenly gains a life in our minds. Which is why some feel bad for animals being killed for food/supplies; they consciously or not think about that animal as a thinking thing, which is a human trait we have learned to give other beings that "are alive".

[@snowflake2910]

That's why I don't like devaluing humans in a country that protects them.

[@theodoraa.9670]

except that animals do have thoughts and can feel pain

[@jameshubert6103]

"Once you name it, you start getting attached to it. Now put that thing back where it came from or so help me..." - Mike Wazowski

[@ArturoStojanoff]

I think the big difference is that a fetus cannot survive outside the womb, and a baby can. The moment it is able to exist without interfering with the bodily autonomy of the mother, then its rights change, because in order to enforce those rights, you do not have to force the mother to do anything, she can literally peace out forever and it doesn't matter, but she can't do that with a fetus.

[@izzyt308]

This idea is common but not great. The earliest successful birth of a premature baby was about 4 months into the pregnancy and the baby survived. With technology advancing its entirely possible that one day we could grow a full baby from conception with just an egg and sperm and no further help from the mother. Would that mean that abortion would no longer be okay anymore? The line can't be drawn at our current medical limitations as they may change.

[@ArturoStojanoff]

@@izzyt308Even if that's the case, the woman could get the fetus out of her body, and then the fate of that fetus needn't be her problem anymore.

[@izzyt308]

@@ArturoStojanoff That would be great but that's not how abortions are done. Mothers always have to deliver the fetus even if its aborted. What makes it an abortion is that the fetus is terminated first before it is delivered. It would actually be okay if a mother removed the baby while it was still alive and then left it to be raised by someone else.

[@ArturoStojanoff]

@@izzyt308 Well but if we have the technology to keep a fetus alive outside the womb don't you think we'd have technology to take the fetus out of the womb without killing it? I mean one seems way more technically difficult than the other.

[@izzyt308]

@@ArturoStojanoff it is more technically difficult but its possible with modern tech as early as 4 months and if it gives the fetus a chance at life isn't it worth it? We just dont do it because people prefer the option of aborting the fetus so we dont have to think about who takes care of it

[@ramuneisyummy-6012]

Why are the rights of the unborn more important than the fully grown, fully conches, fully present,fully alive, pregnant person? How can anyone look at someone who is suffering the burden of an unwanted pregnancy, in witch they don’t know the circumstance’s that put them into that situation,and tell them “I care more about a person that doesn’t exist,a person that isn’t even here, a person that will not be born out of love,but will be born out of pain, is more important than you.” Pro life ppl only care about the unborn until they are actually born.

[@sheridansherr8974]

How irresponsble one has to be to get an unwanted pregnacy?!? Don't you know how to use condomes?!?

[@ramuneisyummy-6012]

@@sheridansherr8974 condoms can break. Also even if someone didn’t use one they still deserve access to the proper medical care. Ppl do stupid things that’s why we need abortion rights

[@JAMIOO]

@@sheridansherr8974”yes! Because women *dont* get assaulted every single day!” Come on man

[@KD-ou2np]

​@sheridansherr8974 you are an idiot. You don't deserve to have anyone answer your stupid questions.

[@hydra70]

If we accept that a fetus is a full person with a complete right to life, then we have to balance that right against the mother's rights. If you're looking for an unlimited right to abortion, you have to balance the life of the fetus against the effects of the pregnancy. Is the mother more harmed by being pregnant than the fetus is by being killed? This is why it's critical to determine if a fetus is a full person with a full person's rights or not. Your statement "'I care more about a person that doesn't exist'" assumes the answer to that question without justifying it. Disclaimer: Since I'll probably get crucified for saying something that is not 100% pro-choice, I am pro-choice. But I think there is a legitimate moral debate to have about this. I simply haven't been strongly convinced that a fetus has enough rights to outweigh the rights of the mother, so I err on the side of the one that definitely has the rights of a full person.

[@hazelnut88]

People talk about having the kid but no one talks about caring for the kid……….

[@cardboardking577]

Usually it's the "put them up for adoption" and they close their eyes and ears to what is happening to adoption places *now*, nevermind where it'd be a lot more

[@karisap]

Ultimately I think we are working within a tragic system: in order for a fetus to live, they wreak havoc on a woman's body from pregnancy through birth until able to survive on their own. I believe every fetus has a right to life, but the fact of the matter is that their life depends on the mother's, and you can't force a woman into supporting a fetus' life if she doesn't want to. It is tragic either way- either a human life must be ended or a woman is forced to give up her body for the sake of the baby. That is why I think abortions should be prevented through better sex education, access to contraceptives, and ultimately by building a better world. Simply forcing pregnancy and birth is not the answer.

[@constantinexi6489]

Sounds more like an “option to life” than a “right to life”

[@jonjonjihen3940]

And you sound like you lack critical thinking skills.

[@lightningringeopal3601]

Artificial wombs

[@failedsuccessfully0000]

Banning abortion = forcing pregnancy and birth? Just don't get pregnant. You are not an object. Women can prove to us that they're not objects by using the 2 braincells needed to object to being used as a sex object, causing unwanted pregnancy.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

Should we invest in artificial wombs so people are born from a test tube?

[@JzL4ShzL]

I was waiting for the "moral person" definitions because of the implications regarding protections of persons with severe disabilities, which in my opinion could be co-opted too easily by a eugenics campaign under the first definition for my comfort. I think this could have been brought up earlier in the video and deserved its own section. But overall, I thought you presented a very good breakdown of these positions. On a different note, one concept that I think would have been worth exploring in your explanation on the difference between positive and negative duties in the potentiality section is erogatory action. It also begs the question of the limits of erogatory action and the point at which action would be supererogatory, such as perhaps injecting all crocodiles so that they may develop conscious self awareness. Thank you for exploring these questions!

[@KneeVan_]

I think drawing the line on the development of consciousness (note, not self consciousness) is a far better line. It's said to develop at around 24 weeks, so roughly the beginning of the third trimester. Seems like a reasonable line to me

[@SpongeBob5000_]

That's completely arbitrary and amoral. Consciousness is a trait that is obtained based on the stage of development that you're in. This fixation on consciousness being the arbiter of whether it's ok to kill a person or not is silly. It's just like our reproduction/fertility, our reproduction/fertility depends on the stage of development that we are in. A prepubescent girl cannot get pregnant and a prepubescent boy cannot impregnate a girl yet by virtue of them not being in that stage of development yet. Anybody can just arbitrarily choose a random human trait and say that it's "reasonable" to kill them if they happen to not possess that trait yet. A pre-third trimester child who doesn't possess consciousness yet it still a person just like a prepubescent kid who doesn't possess reproduction/fertility is. It is immoral to kill innocent people. People means everybody from conception (where human life begins).

[@KneeVan_]

@SpongeBob5000_ @SpongeBob5000_ any answer to this question is arbitrary. That's the nature of topic itself. However, the reason I've subjectively come to this conclusion comes down to the philosophy around what gives life value. Sure a fetus is a life, however I think even you could agree something being alive doesn't necessarily grant it personhood. We don't value the lives of ants because they are basic life forms who lack consciousness. Something like a dog or even something along the lines of dolphins exhibit much higher levels of consciousness and therefore are given higher value. The more conscious or aware a being becomes the more we as humans tend value that life. Even blades of grass are alive, but we don't cry about it dying from lack of water. Consciousness is what makes human life valuable.

[@SpongeBob5000_]

@@KneeVan_ I disagree that the nature of this topic is arbitrary or subjective. Objective morality is real. Murdering innocent people is immoral. Human life itself is sacred and it's "value" does not depend on the possession of a random developmental trait like consciousness, fertility, eye sight, number of bones in your body etc. A person being alive at any point of their life from conception, birth, infancy, toddler years, childhood, adolescence, adulthood, middle age and senior years, has inestimable value, sacredness, and a right to live. Human life has an immortal and spiritual soul unlike ants, dogs, dolphins or any other nonhuman life form and that's why it is valuable above non-rational, nonspiritual, material souls of nonhuman life.

[@KneeVan_]

@SpongeBob5000_ I don't believe in objective morality. If you are going into this already believing you are objectively correct then I don't have any reason to continue. This conversation is done here

[@SpongeBob5000_]

@@KneeVan_ If you don't believe in objective morality then you just self-defeated your whole arguments and rendered them useless. Why do you care about "drawing a line" and being "reasonable" if there are no true objective moral obligations? Why not just blow the babies brains off with a shotgun after it's born if there is no objective moral obligation? It wouldn't make a difference to you would it? You're just rearranging matter and molecules.

[@kahlinn8460]

I have recently found your channel, and as someone who is trying to produce the same form of content, you are SO fucking good and you post so regularly considering the level of quality your projects are. Keep it up!

[@oliSUNvia]

thank you!!

[@geode9512]

You should do a video about sewercide. Who owns our bodies and what are their means of control? Capitalism? What does it mean if we are not given a safe or painless option to take our own lives? Also, what does it mean when that option is only given to the terminally ill? Are they not valuable enough to the point where a society that "values life" will let them leave so easily?

[@oliSUNvia]

unrelated but i was thoroughly confused about what sewercide was for a solid minute lol -- sounds interesting though!

[@lilsmol7101]

That would be really interesting!

[@ak-th5xt]

@@oliSUNvia lmao sewerside sounds like something killer croc would do

[@raphaelworotikan]

wow. that's interesting!

[@chie5747]

It's sewer slide, not sewerside 😩

[@ZachariahWiedeman]

Love your videos. So well thought out and expressed. Well done.

[@elizabethhh2460]

Amazing, informative, and fascinating. Thank you so much for this!

[@testingno7199]

Ironically I would not exist if not for abortion. My parents set out to have only two kids when they got married. After my older sister was born, my mom got pregnant again sooner than they planned. My parents considered keeping it, but ultimately they just weren’t ready financially, emotionally, mentally, etc. My dad was fairly early in establishing his business and my mom was working on starting one of her own. Plus they already had a baby to take care of. They made the decision to have an abortion, and a few years later when they were ready, they decided to have me

[@semekiizuio]

That is scary to think about, have you thought about that sibling you didnt have before you?

[@testingno7199]

@@semekiizuio I really don’t think of it as a sibling. Just a fertilized egg that never became a person. And I mean every person that exists, exists against all odds because of the choices of all their ancestors combined, along with the timing of those choices. So I don’t really think my chances of existing were scarier than anyone else’s. I just think it’s funny that some people say they’re only alive in spite of abortion when I am alive because of it :)

[@semekiizuio]

@@testingno7199 I understand, it's one of those rare scenarios

[@deiov]

@@testingno7199 ...you still may have been alive of it? How do you know? For abortion, you're sure they never had a chance but here, you can't be. Moreover, no one is aborting fertilized eggs (zygote, the first stage of human development, but embryos, and fetuses), which are children. Personhood has a really controversial history and considering living human beings "not persons' isn't a good stance to hold

[@jonson856]

Or, they would not have had the abortion and they still could have had you and you would have hade another bigger sibling.

[@canonicalgio7837]

My mum was an abortion nurse for 20 years and I asked her about this after seeing this video and she said that the fetus' would never survive so they wouldn't be resuscitated but they weren't killed on purpose. This is in the UK where the latest you could have an abortion is 24 weeks and the earliest baby to survive after resuscitation was at 22 weeks. She only did abortions on up to 18 weeks though. She said that with babies surviving earlier and earlier 24 weeks might be too late to allow people to have one in her opinion. Interesting stuff thanks for making the video.

[@estefaniaboujon6830]

24 weeks is crazy, thats a full baby

[@havenbastion]

Fantastic to see someone updating their opinion as new information becomes available. That's so rare in emotionally charged issues. Well done, mum.

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Huh

[@noodle9993]

We have up to 24 weeks in the uk BUT this late is only due to medical issues

[@gohan3448]

Your mother needs to repent!

[@ItzEposa]

i love your videos and how you clearly explain the points it's really great i play your videos in the background while i'm drawing and it keeps my brain occupied

[@taeheepowers2537]

My dad asked my mom to get an abortion cause she was 19 at the time and tbh when I found that out I didn't give a single fuck. My mom is pro life and my twin sister and I are not. As teenagers she asked us how would you feel if I had aborted you 😡 and we just started laughing cause like... we wouldn't have ever felt anything. We would've never been conscious living beings. I don't really understand why people get upset at the thought that their parent considered abortion because at that time we weren't people yet!! It isn't like they knew the person you'd become and had the relationship they now have with you. You did not exist yet. It is a personal thing to consider, but it isn't personally about you.

[@SpongeBob5000_]

Your dad is failure and a joke of a man for being sick enough to encourage such atrocity. You not "feeling" anything doesn't remove the objective moral offense that your mom would have committed and the moral offense of your dad encouraging your mother to murder his own children. Those actions have real consequences and condemnation before God wether you believe it or not. You were a person from conception, not when you were born or began "feeling" things. Life begins at conception.

[@aroach7461]

Think you're hard-core? Your dad and mom made a mistake. You should finish what they failed to do all those years ago. All the oxygen you've wasted and time wasted. You're nobody, you will die like the rest of us. There is no meaning to life, life is not real. All humans are electric meat. No free will, no consequences, I can hurt a thousand people and I would be justified. I will.

[@themostbestwizard]

You can't actually believe that a baby doesn't exist until the moment of birth. That's just an insincere lie that you put out just like the one-drop theory of racism and for the same reason. You don't want to be bound to respect the human rights of others so you will PRETEND to believe that people on the other side of some arbitrary line aren't really people.

[@bluefoxs7733]

tell me you are depressed without telling me you are depressed

[@Jay-bk3xc]

@@bluefoxs7733eh I don’t think they’re depressed I think they just understand that due to the circumstances at that time, their parents considering abortion isn’t too far fetched and isn’t something to take personal

[@anava7030]

Edit: I'm sorry, I should have never used Judaism to support my opinion as someone who is not Jewish and honestly doesn't know anything about Judaism. I said that in Judaism a fetus is considered "part and parcel" of the mother until it is born, and from this suggested that Judaism supports a pro-choice position, but I have never even read the Torah, I am in no way the person to make any comment on what Judaism stands for. So yeah, it wasn't appropriate for me to use that to give credence to my own opinion. Sorry everyone. Even if the fetus is a full person… why are you talking about something inside of me like it doesn’t require me as a vessel to be in the room? Imagine a bunch of people discussing the unborn baby, talking to a woman’s stomach and not acknowledging her at all. That’s what it feels like when we even start discussing personhood. It’s part of someone’s body, even if it is a person. And it shouldn’t have rights that trump the person that it depends on to live, and is taking resources from.

[@serenityssolace]

That's why Judaism is disgusting. I certainly can't feel more opposite to this notion that it shouldn't have rights that trump the person it depends on to live. This is very racist in a sense. A supremacy style of ideology as if the mother is the master race and the fetus is subhuman because it isn't still developed. Both deserve equal rights and abortion (except for exceptional circumstances) is a crime and a sin of the highest caliber

[@asdfghjk8876]

Yes, but Judaism also greatly emphasizes the sacredness of all life, the fetus only becomes a parasite once it endangers the mother's life and well-being. Depending on the flavor of Judaism we're talking about, abortion is only permitted when it is absolutely necessary ( which I’ve heard can be applied as a general rule, though you should always consult a halachic authority, since every case is different)

[@SalvaPlaysHD]

@@asdfghjk8876 Precisely. Think OP kind of casted aside the emphasis on life value in Judaism, in most cases something like abortion is simply stripping a being of life and is still frowned upon. It requires very specific life-endangering circumstances where it is permitted. Thanks for clarifying that before someone started walking around with the argument with Judaism as a fundament and utilize it wrongly.

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

i guess judaism and cruelty are not totally far away from each other, this is why we have Christ after it, correcting them

[@Dyzo14]

​@@emanuel_soundtrack bro seriously. :/ Christianity, depending on the type and the book, is very violent, you're looking at the bible with rose colored glasses on or something. Leave Judaism alone.

[@potentialcaroozin2385]

Debates like these are why normal people hate philosophers lol I found it so difficult to remove human empathy, connection, and feeling in the conversation, where usually i am very capable of doing so. I think it’s because this conversation has come molecules of closeness to becoming a conversation about eugenics. Please don’t take this the wrong way, I found this video to be a great thought piece

[@ti9372]

@ashy when it comes to deciding whether a disabled person should live and be born on the terms of how much of a burden they are to others and society, of course being the caretaker of a disabled person is a full-time job that not everyone is capable or willing to do but it is borderline eugenics to discuss whether they deserve to live, a lot of people think it's better not to live than to be disabled but a lot of disabled folks are firmly against that. I don't like the idea of terminating a pregnancy solely on the term that the child could be or is disabled, when you decide to have a child disability is always a reality even when it happens later in life but I do understand that with the current status of social safety nets for disabled people life becomes incredibly expensive and people are scared to take on that responsibility alone. It's a tough subject and I do understand being uncomfortable with its closeness to eugenics.

[@oliSUNvia]

i also understand the distaste for philosophers sometimes lol. one of my philosophy profs actually said that just because there is a good philosophical argument for something doesn't mean it *must* be the way you approach things or that it's the only right way of looking at something -- and i agree

[@iliya2098]

@@oliSUNvia I'm not trying to come at you with a gotcha or anything, just genuinely curious on your thoughts about this, but isn't the idea of not having to follow a good philosophical argument for something (I'm also assuming by 'good' you mean there isn't a better one) a philosophical argument in itself, and hence self contradictory? Additionally, how does it make sense to have two different 'right' ways of looking at something? Surely, if we assume by 'right' to mean a conclusion logically follows from its premises, then isn't it contradictory to state a different conclusion also follows from the same premises? Unless I'm misunderstanding on what you mean by a 'right way' of looking at something.

[@ameenferry4988]

@@iliya2098 i don't think it's that deep, it just means you can interpret something in a lot of different ways, like 4=2+2 is a right conclusion that logically follows from its premises whereas 4=3+1 has a different conclusion but it still follows the same premises, ofc one could argue that both conclusions are the same because 2+2=3+1 but the answer lies in the nuances...i think?

[@gliiitched]

@ashy Take, for instance, prenatal screenings for non-lethal, harmless developmental or genetic disorders, like autism or Down syndrome respectively. Allowing for prenatal screenings that would result in “early intervention” opens the flood gates for autism/Down syndrome specific abortions. Essentially, they would be weeded out of the population… because they’re disabled, despite being perfectly capable at leading a normal, albeit assisted, life. I can speak from this. I am autistic. I lead a pretty normal, but reserved life, and I occasionally need help from others to do or understand certain things. If I, or any other autistic person, were to be prenatally screened and subsequently aborted, a perfectly viable human being would be aborted solely on the basis that they are autistic. This also applies to all other disabilities and birth defects that can be accommodated for, like osteogenesis imperfecta, Edward’s syndrome, ichthyosis, cerebral palsy, Turner syndrome, muscular dystrophy, progeria, dwarfism, etc.

[@ragus3321]

What an amazing video. This is the most comprehensive and compelling argument and breakdown I have ever seen on the internet about abortion. I will be referring back to this video many times in the future when trying to explain or fully understand the morality and arguments behind abortion. Thank you.

[@meghnayadav9908]

This, this right here is what it means to deep dive. IT WAS AMAZING!!! I loved how you broke down what it means to live like all these people coming with rights and using words without any held premise. This is all I need to watch on this topic. Thankyou Olivia, this was mentally stimulating and enlightening.❤

[@user-fb4bg9dr7l]

I don't think people in the comments are really listening and digesting your entire video. It's a shame because it was very enlightening and I thoroughly enjoyed the entire 41 minutes and 19 seconds of it. Fantastic job! Subbed!

[@HaizeyWings]

Samesies, for your entire comment :)

[@Bear_the_shepherd]

41:20

[@cococanes]

@@Bear_the_shepherd no u did not😂🤦🏾‍♀️

[@soraya742]

I feel the same way! I think this video might be the only discussion on this topic I’ve found that hasn’t left me feeling distressed (so I was actually able to learn things!). I’d love to leave thanks and maybe relay how my own experiences fit in with this, but I’m a little fearful to leave a comment thread of my own (even a simple one that mostly avoids anything remotely “controversial”) because of said comments and replies.

[@rovgor]

I just dont know if most people did not understand the video or if they just think that this video with such a topic is the right place to post their political point of view regarding to abortion. Most people talk about pros and cons for abortion being legal or not, but the video is about when and why does it become necessary to credit living creatures with a right to live and and thus giving an answer to the question: "When does infanticide morally differ from abortion and when does both become morally reprehensible ?"

[@axelnadal8729]

"I can want mommy's milk without being aware of my own self existence". This is why is love your videos.

[@ms.aelanwyr.ilaicos]

That sentence is a verse in the song of creation, for sure.

[@-haclong2366]

Still not an argument against post-natal abortion, fetuses also respond to stimuli and have subconscious desires. But the consent of the mother trumps the desires of the child, no woman is ever forced to breastfeed. Babies are essentially machines that only respond to stimuli, they are not conscious human beings like you and I.

[@thebogangamer1]

@@-haclong2366 how do you know that though

[@jj9217]

@@thebogangamer1 just ask them lol. Duh!

[@thebogangamer1]

@@jj9217 being able to speak determines nothing.

[@thesoftestblanket4244]

This video was extremely insightful and well done. And I do agree that the state change of being outside the womb is significant to the persons right to life. While I am still on the fence on pro-life pro-choice, I think that this video really clarified some concepts for me. Thank you for this thoughtful video!

[@luvmeday]

one of the most well made and thought provoking videos on the topic

[@ikeice7726]

Improving the adoption system would be a starter in decreasing non-life threatening pregnancy abortions

[@arisily]

Adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy. Adoption is an alternative to parenting. It may reduce abortions, but some people will still not want to be pregnant.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@arisily Either way, it doesn't justify abortions

[@princemeowmeow7493]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj ok, so prevent abortions then. Banning them is just a stupid thought to have when you didn't think anything through. Maybe... instead of irrationally banning something because you think your moral compass is all knowing... what if, and hear me out, what if, we made it so abortions shouldn't be needed? In most cases, abortions happen because of uneducated sex, unwanted pregnancies, financial instability, and medical emergencies. If you think none of these should even be attempted to be fixed then I'd suggest to reflect on your moral compass first before using it to irrationally ban something your unconfertable with.

[@leoninenoble]

We don't want to be pregnant. It's not a debate about whether we want to parent a baby after carrying it to term and giving birth, it's about not wanting to fucking be pregnant. It may be the fetus's body, but it is in MY body, and therefore I have a say what happens in my body and what doesn't. I'm not carrying a baby if I don't feel like it, not waiting until it's done to give it up for adoption.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@leoninenoble You don't have the right to murder your children.

[@VoltsIsHere]

I seriously love that I found this channel, she's seriously so smart and it's amazing to hear people that seem to have similar opinions, but supported with actual facts instead of my near-meaningless opinions and feelings lol

[@littlewammity9896]

90% of youtube 'video-essays' have nothing on her arguments

[@rhett6946]

Imma be real with you. She’s not that bad, don’t get me wrong, but she is not a genius, she’s just parroting others.

[@xjohntheone]

@@rhett6946 where have you heard these arguments before to say she's parroting?

[@cycleplays2219]

@@xjohntheone Doesn't matter because her argument is drivel. Despite her claim to the contrary, there absolutely IS a moral difference between causing a process to begin versus stopping a process that is already in progress. Further the argument that the worth of a newborn is instantly generated upon exiting the womb is disgusting. This is a wild, borderline delusional, abomination of logic in a effort to justify an unjustifiable position. This is simply irrational rejection of responsibility wrapped in pseudophilosophy and pseudointellectualism. It is neither clever nor factual. Sad.

[@katnero8]

@@rhett6946 that's pretty much what philosophy is though. most people take pieces from centuries of other's thoughts and opinions and compile them into their own. when human beings have existed as long as they have, im not sure there can be an entirely "original" thought anymore.

[@trawrtster6097]

I think the point that Judith Butler was trying to make was that it doesn’t matter whether a fetus is a person or not; she was saying that the right to life does not trump the right to bodily autonomy. I personally think that’s a more robust argument for abortion than making the case with consciousness.

[@battlerifle8642]

Autonomy is always there. It's comes with the ability to close your legs.

[@otaku-chan4888]

@@battlerifle8642 yeah?? you don't realize how lucky you are to not know that the 'ability to close your legs' isn't even an ability, it's a _luxury._ Would you really go "hey close your legs, exercise your ability!" to someone being brutally raped??

[@battlerifle8642]

@@otaku-chan4888 Despite being less than 2% of reasons for abortion, rape, incest, and health issues make up 100% of shitty pro-baby murder arguments

[@betsycheddar]

@@battlerifle8642 do you have sex with the intention of creating a child every single time?

[@juliabriggs1141]

@@otaku-chan4888 If you were being honest you’d acknowledge that most pregnancies are from consensual sex not rape. Therefore the point of not having sex if you aren’t prepared for the possibility of pregnancy still stands. It’s common sense to not engage in risky behaviors that may have unintended results.

[@MDNyx]

i don’t even speak french and that reading hurt my soul it’s the exact same with spanish classes in the southern US 😂 love your videos! i appreciate the thought and care you put into these

[@clevernickname8095]

Last edit: Just a heads up to anyone reading this comment, my opinions have since changed a bit from the time I wrote this. At the time I was angry and scared and I think it makes my tone come off a bit accusational. I won't be deleting it bc of the discourse, but just know that I believe that abortion should be an option for everyone regardless of circumstance. This is a complicated subject made extra challenging by recent politics and it's especially complicated for anyone in a situation considering abortion. Even though I am a woman, I have never been pregnant or considered abortion and therefore don't feel like I can give the most educated discourse on this subject. Whatever your opinion on the matter is, I implore you all to have empathy for your fellow humans and put yourself in their shoes before making snap judgements. Choose kindness, and have a wonderful day. I met my friend's boyfriend for the first time a couple weeks ago and I thought for the most part he was great. And then he said that he thinks some women just get abortions for "fun" so they don't have to wear a condom. I was absolutely flabbergasted, especially since he was a gay man dating another man and would never have to deal with this situation. It made me realize how little people who don't have uteruses understand abortion. Personally I'm pro-choice, but I don't know what I would do in that situation. It's a difficult decision to make, and it's certainly not one anyone makes for "fun". But the people making these legislative decisions don't understand how pregnancy works and truly think that women are just freely murdering full term babies, and that's insanely dangerous edit: well the past few days have been a fun one for women's healthcare rights and this comment blew up out of nowhere. Frankly I don't have the mental energy to reply and argue to every person under my comment, but I'll just dump my thoughts here. Over 90% of abortions happen before 12 weeks and less than 1.3 percent of abortions happen after 21 weeks according to the Washington Post. It happens, but not as much as people make it out to be. Regardless, I think if a women wants to get an abortion that is no ones business but her own, whatever the reason. I personally would not get a late term abortion, but I understand why some women do it. If someone wants to get one that is not my choice to make. You can not force your moral judgments onto others. I think that the majority of women who joke about abortion are doing it to cope. Some people use humor to deal with stressful situations. Not saying it's right, but edgy humor is very popular right now. But again, people are ignoring what the vast majority of abortions look like. The idea of the irresponsible sinful woman going out and having unprotected sex everyday and getting abortions (which doesn't really exist, but if she did would you want her to be forced to raise a child??) is how anti-choice people see all women who get abortions. And now people have bought into that image and women everywhere will suffer. And not just women, but possibly trans people, POC, and gay people as well. You can argue with me all you want but frankly I don't care. If you don't have a uterus you can emphasize, but you will never truly understand that decision. Abortion should be legal for every woman. Period. Roe v Wade being overturned is a terrible day in American History. Update #2: please do not trust anyone in this comment section as an actual source of information. Misinformation is spreading like crazy down here. I'm honestly impressed.

[@kooltyme]

so are contraceptives the equivalent of abortion

[@greenghost6416]

Most abortions are had because of wanting to have fun.

[@nik23ish]

I live near Mexico. The amount of girls going across the border to get multiple abortions has truly scared me. They think of it as a contraceptive.

[@luisbrito1755]

@@kooltyme No because you’re preventing the egg and sperm from meeting, that’d be like saying that masturbation is a form of abortion on the male side.

[@luisbrito1755]

I assure you that the people getting pregnant are not cautiously using contraceptives, I’ve seen interviews where modern women refuse to use condoms, so it’s all to promote promiscuity.

[@helenasun3558]

People aren't very aware of the fact that having a child is an extremely demanding and challenging experience and an immense responsibility that most people are not ready for. You can not force this on anyone, especially not on a premature teenager whose body might die during delivery. Childhood shapes a humans entire psyche and relationship style and it can ruin someones entire adulthood if it is filled with trauma such as the trauma of being unwanted and a burden. There isn't even any support system for mothers or any funding to help prevent rape or help women being financially dependent on men. An unhealthy unhappy mother is very unlikely to raise a healthy happy child, no matter how much she loves it. And in the early stages of pregnancy the fetus doesn't even have much perception or a brain yet, it's basically just cells, (i heard that the soul enters the fetus 4 months post-conception) so a quick death would be way better than a life filled with suffering. And the fact that women apparently have no right to set boundaries for their own bodies and lifes. Unbelievable.

[@Chill-mm4pn]

Yeah I definitely have issues because my dad left my mom when she had me. I mean we're cool now but Abandonment issues.. rejection yay. Ptsd and anxiety from being abused by a guy she was seeing so yeah.(he was supposed to babysit while she worked) That changes a child, as a young boy I learned to rely on myself and never let it happen again. It makes you think aggressively. Whereas some members of my family around my age grew up with both parents and a positive frame of reference in regards to relationships. But yeah they need to do more for women. I have a son with my ex and we were in our early 20s at the time. That was a lot since our son had health issues. W.I.C. and Snap were used because we needed it while working full time. People don't realize how much it it takes to raise and provide for a child.

[@John-nb6ep]

Was that a joke? A man is legally obligated to pay them money until the child is 18 or he goes to jail.

[@John-nb6ep]

@Death Omen Mostly choice. At least they're paying paid.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@Death Omen But that's false, men raise any children within a marriage and pay child support for the ones born out of wedlock. In fact, the responsibility of parenthood has flipped, while a man can't eliminate or have any say over the elimination of his children after conception, the woman can decide whether to kill her child or not, averting responsibility if she chooses.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@Death Omen Most abortions are done by taking a couple of pills, so spare me the sob story about surgical procedures involving dismemberment, those will always be the minority. Abortion has become no more inconvenient than a bad hangover and it's glibness is advertised as such. The "safe, legal and rare" excuse was abandoned quite some time ago. The rest of your nonsense doesn't even have a point, the bottom line is that men can't escape their responsibility while women are given the ability to murder to escape theirs. Obviously the issue is that nobody has the right to murder.

[@jasperrivera6294]

Genuinely one of the best takes I've seen. Reasonable, well researched, and intelligent. Excellent job

[@errrkt]

Splendid. Thanks for NOT rehashing the standard arguments. Best philosophical & scientific vid on the abortion debate I've seen in a really long time!

[@ramona6721]

In my opinion abortion is about the consent of the person carrying the fetus, giving it the right to fend off their body and to continue growing inside of them. If a person has already given birth to that baby and it is no longer sustaining off them physically I personally don't belive that 'removing the life' is as morally acceptable once it is its own singular being. Though that child now is still reliant on some sort of competent adult adoption and Foster care are options, but I understand that sometimes that can lead to traumatising upbringings, SO THEN WE HAVE TO QUESTION THE QUALITY OF LIFE AND THATS A WHOLE OTHER THING AND AGHH

[@amezvel8239]

It truly is frustrating, I feel people should just mind their own business and let woman do what they see best for their life & the potential child’s life, but if she chooses to keep it then she should be made responsible for endangering its future life through drug and alcohol consumption. I don’t think its okay to allow abortion into the third trimester though, 6 months is usually enough time to realize you are not menstruating, and experiencing the symptoms. Also Not everyone should be a mother, and some woman know when this applies to them, sometimes pregnancy prevention doesn’t work, sometimes we get taken advantage of, and sometimes we are just too ignorant and too young to know better ... we shouldn’t be demonized when things could of been out of our control.

[@ewaberchulska]

Just because something may have poor quality of life that doesnt mean they dont deserve to live aswell tho you know ,I have what would be considered " poor quality of life " I still deserve to live tho I think

[@amezvel8239]

@@ewaberchulska i get you, but personally i find it cruel to bring kids into the world when you know you will not be able to provide not only the necessities but the time, attention, and love a child needs.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@m.josena4485]

@@ewaberchulska amd I wish I didn’t💀. It’s cruel to bring children into thr world if you know/ think you’re incapable of providing them with what they need to survive

[@adjoint_functor]

This "potentiality principle" stuff reminds me of the trolley problem: by doing something negative, you feel more "involved" and more guilty, even if refraining from something positive would have had the same effect.

[@ania1661]

exactly what I thought!

[@Kittycat-fv9tk]

That's what I was thinking of!! The lack of a choice is a choice in of itself. We can look at it as in deontology vs consequentialism (I am not a moral philosophy professor nor student, I am a very curious person and philosophy has a lot of potential answers). Deontology being on the side of saving one, consequentialism being on the side of the five. Justice is generally created by the public's pooled answers of what is morally right and wrong. If you asked a hundred people if they would kick or pet a dog, I believe *most* people would choose to pet or just avoid the dog. With the trolley problem, I believe most people would go on the side of consequentialism.

[@racooninmytree]

Quebec-er here and our english lessons also suck 😂 learned on my own too, props to you for learning french! It is not the easiest as a second language! Hope you visit our beautiful province soon !

[@rebeccasrandomness3045]

This was delightful to watch even though I'm not sure if I agree with everything but I love hearing your thoughts your so well spoken and researched

[@meXmydreams]

Out of curiosity, what do you not agree with?

[@ideasmith1647]

Excellent as always, challenging topic with a lot of historical precedent such as mabiki in Japan, also it was quite common to kill baby girls in patriarchal societies, similar to China’s one-child policy, people had a lot more children due to high child-mortality rates, hence children were seen as a lot more expendable, this a great topic for tackling the social-construction of morality.

[@plushcanvas8652]

Dang how did you watch The Whole video in two minutes

[@mello4734]

@@plushcanvas8652 he was probably fascinated by the first two minutes

[@merileva]

killing girls or aborting girls is still very prevalent in society and male child preference can be seen in nearly every place on this planet. its sadly not just a thing of the past...

[@therealbs2000]

Literally had laws in asia preventing doctors from telling the parents the sex of the fetus because the girl would get the plug pulled literally

[@SpongeBob5000_]

Morality isn't "socially constructed". It's objective and it comes from God.

[@bayleighj]

if my mom aborted me, i wouldn’t have blamed her. i would find it reasonable. my dad was addicted to opioids, said he didn’t want me, my mom had been working 3 jobs, she was 24. if we ban abortion completely, i think we need to clear other obstacles as well. i love this video, it was very enlightening. :)

[@devi---]

same. my mom did want me and my sibling, but if she went back in time and wanted an abortion then i wouldn't hold it against her. She was in an abusive relationship where the power dynamic between her and my sperm donor wasn't fair. he treated her kindly, but eventually got abusive verbally toward her and physically toward my sister and i. she only started to divorce him after he kept abusing me and my sibling even after i had a life-threatening brain surgery, for fear that she wouldn't be able to support us without him. i would rather not exist if it meant that she got to make all her dreams come true.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@devi--- You can stop existing right now if you wanted to, do you think that would make her dreams come true then?

[@salamander4173]

Quality of life does NOT equal the value of said life. Do you think those child labors in China who is doing all the hard work everyday, only to eat and seeing his parents smile, does his life values less than rich people who have iPhones? Do they deserves to be killed early just to avoid "living a hard life"?

[@aaljustaal1890]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Is your pro-life argument really that someone should kill themself? How old does someone have to be before you stop caring about their life?

[@lindsaypaige4628]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj these people are mental and clearly severely depressed, they think that just bc they feel a certain way they can say others should be denied life even tho they already got to be born.

[@Leo-gl8ls]

The best video I've ever seen talk about this. I normally get so irritated by people's non-stop contradictions on these topics but this one felt like so satisfying

[@julietadelacerda836]

I wanted to clarify my position on this topic a little bit more with the video but I think I have more questions now 😂 (guess it was kind of the purpose) I love that you talk about this through moral and philosophy since I haven't made my mind about this yet cause you literally CANT speak to anyone about this questioning, they'll all get really emotional and start screaming at you the arguments we've always heard

[@AmandaSbarros]

I'm so terrified of getting pregnant that I think it became a phobia. My baby can be born sick and suffer so much because of it, they can grow up healthy and be raped later in life and never actually recover from it. They can also grow up healthy but get cancer or something after and suffer until they die. They can suffer an accident and never be able to move again. I DON'T KNOW, I just know that I always wanted to be a mother once I was ready for it, however with all of these news and the way people see pregnant women and women in general made me think so much more about giving live to someone. You suffer being alive, that's the rule, it doesn't matter how good your life is you gonna suffer. All of those thoughts just burrowed into my head and I can't shake it away. I think I rather die than giving live to someone, I'm so afraid of watching someone that I love with all of my soul suffering and knowing that I am the responsible for it, I was the one who gave them live. I'm a virgin but I'm so so terrified of having sex because of it, it doesn't matter if I'm taking birth control and my partner is using a condom, I still get paranoid at the point that I start to have an anxiety attack. I don't even know what to do anymore

[@zhannahealy6003]

Yeah we all suffer something at some point in life some more than others but if you look at it that way all it’s going to do is tear you apart. My dad passed away and I miss him every day but does that mean I wish I never had a dad to miss no because the good always out weighs the bad. We are always going to have bad moments and happy moments I wouldn’t trade my life just because I’ve dealt with tough situations because in the end I know I will prevail. I’m so sorry for your mindset it sounds terrible to have to think that way daily but you have the power to change that you don’t have to live in fear, it is faith over fear everyday

[@cottonspixxes4109]

I’m not even trying to be judge mental but from what you wrote it sounds like you need therapy if you are having panic attacks

[@AmandaSbarros]

@@cottonspixxes4109 yess I'm working on it

[@rovgor]

I love cats, but I dont want any of my own for the same reason you dont want any children. I often get nightmares about having a cat on my own, but I have to watch how its skin is melting, how it gets burnt alive or how it bleeds to death and theres nothing I can do about it. I am an anti-natalist, because I think not getting born at all is better than ups and downs of suffering and joy.

[@fixsationon7244]

@@rovgor im also a antinatalist. But in a different manner. Like i think taking ans créating life are estentially the same. And creating life is awful. I have taken a aproach. I kinda belive in destiny and i have thought that olny way i can do it is to meet someone. Who i fell in love with. That's how we got a cat. My neighbour tried to do suicide and we took his can in and he didn't ask the cat back knowing that she is safe with us. I can't take suffering away but can be redused. The cat is already here. With us so why not to take care of it. Her name is Kiisu and she is a soft void. 😊 Paranoia is scary but i think its important heal from it so our desisons are guided by our rationality and authentic feelings rather than fear. It makes our lives easier and makes us less helpless. Is destiny throws a chikd at me i will take care of it.

[@oceanfarmer420]

my mother got pregnant with me at 41, in a new relationship, and fighting addiction. because of her age and other circumstances, im not the healthiest lolol. if she aborted me, it couldve been better for her and my brothers. i was a very bad birth, we both almost died. though im grateful for life, i also understand that she probably shouldnt have had me… i wouldn’t know haha

[@SuzyL35]

Just because you had an irresponsible addict mother doesn’t mean you deserved to die lmao. Hope you plan on continuing living and realize we are all made with a purpose

[@heyitslupe7528]

If she killed you before you turned a year old you also wouldn't have known or cared, but that doesnt sound morally okay does it

[@i_likemen5614]

@@heyitslupe7528 I would rather die as a baby without a consciousness than have to kill myself as a fully conscious being

[@ThheSocial]

@@heyitslupe7528a year old baby is different from a 1 month “old” fetus

[@sadece-birisi]

​@@heyitslupe7528 then the baby doesn't have to use mother's body so I hope you're aware of the difference well

[@ricochet4674]

10:27 The one Im thinking of is Brave! Though in that one her mom turns into a bear not a tree but for this example it works pretty much the exact same as you described it.

[@RandolfRichardson]

Thank you, @oliSUNvia, for sharing more of your usual thoughtful and thoroughly-considered perspectives. In the pro-choice circles I'm in, the term "human" is used to describe people, human babies, human foetuses, etc., while the term "human being" is used to describe a post-birth person, human baby, etc. The reason for this is that "being" is regarded as having a pre-requisite of "being born" and becoming a separate individual -- prior to this, the foetus is regarded as part of the pregnant person's body. This nuance seems to be lost on most anti-abortion people (in particular), and many of them refuse to even consider this difference between "human" and "human being." (There are other aspects of the arguments, but I don't want to open that giant rabbit hole here.)

[@answer2166]

sometimes it’s difficult to find people that have fully formed opinions backed by genuine evidence and hard research, especially with the current social and political climate. you were so respectful and informed with your approach and it was SO refreshing to hear a new perspective that doesn’t shame either side regardless of your personal views. tysm ❤️

[@Not_convinced]

But what is her opinion on abortion though?

[@rjlee-cc4xy]

@@Not_convinced Did you fully digest what was said in the videov

[@yami3691]

@ToughMittens she literally said it in the begining

[@MegaMilenche]

@@Not_convinced I think her opinion is that abortion is okay.

[@antonioflores4240]

very fascinating. As someone who has a pretty set opinion on this moral issue, I can definitely say this was a solid analysis of an insanely complex situation. Very much so agree that we need to stop using the same arguments on both sides of this issue. Arguments end up being narrowed down to a canyon of specific problems and concerns and there is little room on either side to persuade the other. Trying to expand the argument pool is definitely something that is needed in this area

[@theholyinquisition389]

The pro life position doesn't rely on the potentiality principle. The property that is required for the right to life is being a distinct individual belonging to the human species.

[@magdalenaos8215]

After baby is born, it's no longer "my body my choice", because it is simply not "their" body. It's quite ridiculous to leave a child to die. It's like saying that child is parents property and they can send it back if they want to.

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

Brave video, Olivia! Its a timely but controversial topic

[@malegria9641]

FOREIGN!!!! MY MAN!!!

[@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526]

Purr

[@Quantum722]

@@malegria9641 you know him? my first time seeing Foreign.

[@malegria9641]

@@Quantum722 foreign is fucking awesome man

[@dolorsitametconsectur]

YAY FOREIGN!!!

[@goodvybe679]

I remeber hearing something about the significance of a parent holding their child for their short time after birth, which is meant to allow them to make stronger connections later on (I may be mis-remembering but it was something like that). Clearly there is some processing that is going on there and even if the baby can't feel why or we can't articulate why it's like that, doesn't mean we should take the risk. I'd personally apply this to later weeks since I view that as high enough risk that it may outweigh the diffculty of aborting earlier (assuming the healthcare system didn't cuck you by delaying you or whatever the system is okay with doing at this point, I have no standards there). Allowing for easy acess early abortion and providing contraception/sexual education should be the focus, since we should humble ourselves a little and not assume we know everything, or even a lot comparable to the brain. Pain is the only thing we can kind of get a grasp on with brain activity. In the case of TCS-like events just give the support monetarily (or make the DNA tests free if that's cheaper) assuming there isn't that endless suffering.

[@snehaghosh4132]

Really love your contents. Thank you

[@chuuyaism1653]

this was a really nice discussion and i did truly enjoy this video. I'm pro choice but despite the valid points raised in the video regarding pro live arrangements i think this is a fairly comprehensive video essay considering what it aims to talk about and i think this is a video anyone involved in abortion discussions and willing to keep an open mind should at least consider even if they don't really subscribe to all the ideas mentioned

[@ligma6930]

I would like to see you do a video on euthanasia, cause it seems like the same theories could be applied to euthanasia where a fully developed being seems to be condemned to forever suffering and pain if life support wasn't taken off.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@dna9095]

Actually, my dad had a convo about this with me and my siblings. After he saw how my grandma was after she was paralyzed, needed 24/7 support and couldn’t do anything at all, he realized what a horrible life that was. So he told us that if he were to ever end up like that or in a looooong coma with only a 5% chance of waking up-just pull the plug.

[@pykenotpike]

This conversation always frustrates me because of the organ donor analogy. You cannot force someone under any circumstance to donate an organ. It doesn’t matter if they’re killing the baby or not: you cannot force someone to donate their body to house a baby. People have a right to do with their bodies what they please.

[@bensophin]

Yes, well said.

[@Dora-mp1]

Your comment only apply for rape victims. If you consent to have sex, you consent to have babies. Period. Since your womb can't magically produce a baby, you are never forced to host a baby, you are the one who forced the baby to be inside you. Especially once you know that condoms or birth control pills can't 100% prevent pregnancies. Those babies won't even want to be in the womb of a women who only want to kill them. And organ donor analogy is stupid, you think you safe lives by donoring your organ. Your organ might end up being inside of a person's whose body isn't compatible with your organs and end up killing that person. Plus, why should I donor? I'm not the one who cause anybody to be in a critical condition I don't get to be responsible for it. But you're the one who willingly open your legs for another man and bcs of that decision you have put another life inside you and now you want to terminate it like an irresponsible human being? I don't have any empathy for someone who knows they're not ready for babies but is addicted to free sex knowing she has easy access to abortion.

[@pykenotpike]

@@Dora-mp1 Respectfully, no tf it does not. I think you missed the point of my comment. I do not care about any of the moralizing, except that you cannot force anybody, no matter the circumstances, to sustain any form of life. Whether that be organ donation or pregnancy. The morality of the individual do not matter to me. You cannot violate someone’s autonomy.

[@Dora-mp1]

@@pykenotpike yeah you don't care.. since when pro abortion cares about anything but themselves? Abortion is wrong. Period. Whether it's legal or not.. the state gets to decide. I don't have even the slightest empathy for men/women who are not ready for babies but are addicted to free sex thinking that abortion is easily accessible. Oh by the way, the womb or uterus inside of every women.. is it trully belongs to woman? The uterus belongs to the baby too! That uterus is there for the baby, you as a woman don't need it to breath or live, you don't need it like you need lungs and heart. Even if you get rid of it, like my mom who decide to do that because she doesn't want anymore child, you can still live well. I'm not suggesting that every women do it, but they should at least be responsible of their own action. "I DON'T CARE IT'S MY BODY" isn't the answer to everything... because it's not your body that's being killed in abortion... it's the baby's body.. and the womb inside you don't solely belong to you.. it belongs to the baby too especially when the baby is already in you.

[@Dora-mp1]

@@pykenotpike you're a man right? As a man how on earth are you so concern about women getting easy access to abortion, huh? Is it that you're afraid that your sex partner gets pregnant and you have to be responsible for the baby too? I'm hoping this is only assumption. Plus no one is forcing you or the women to have sex. I support my body my choice when it comes to sex, but not when the baby is in the mother's womb. Human life has been created and now you end it bcs you're an irresponsible person. It's frustrating to talk to people like you who prioritize pleasure above responsibility.

[@northdakotagamer]

Before birth and after certain developmental stages fetuses demonstrate preferences (increasing or decreasing movement based on sounds primarily) which while not related to the continuation of their existence does demonstrate preferences equivalent to the indirect knowledge of their existence

[@teehee4096]

At 2:10, I think you are referring to the movie Brave, where Merida's mom becomes a bear and the townspeople try to kill her, and Merida has to find the witch to turn her back into a human.

[@thecheeseburgler591]

Surprised that there was no discussion of Margaret Sanger, President Nixon, Cecile Richards, and the issue of eugenics. We can’t leave this out of the discussion. I understand that it makes abortion more conspiratorial than practical, but we can’t forget that abortion rates highest amongst low income black mothers, and it was intended to be that way. Republican supported it at the time for this reason.

[@thecheeseburgler591]

@@brianahart5938 So murder the criminals before they have the chance to become one? How is this different from eugenics?

[@Arizonaball1]

"being able to explain the intuitions behind our arguments is sexy trust me" as an ENTP and prospective philosophy major: yeah.

[@splnrt..50]

entp

[@dandelions_are_cool]

@@00_grey same

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

Intuitive Precieving types for the WIN

[@evelyncolon5497]

As someone in a loving relationship with a philosophy major, yeah agreed lol.

[@kurofuri]

entp-

[@chloelamas8695]

I really find this video super fascinating. As I was watching I came up with a question. In regards to the argument on the moral significance of birth, how would the Rini distinguish the desire for milk from a natural, innate reflex? The rooting reflex, for example, is a physiological reaction to a stimuli that causes a head movement towards the mothers breast. The baby (unless there were to be some neurological issue) is unable to resist such an instinctual desire, which I would assume alludes to the fact that the infant would have no choice, and therefore no desire to engage in this life saving action. I’m not sure if there’s a simple answer to this question or if this opens the door for larger philosophical arguments on free will and desire. I’d love to know your thoughts! Thanks for making such a thoughtful video.

[@maureennjoki8932]

'what if you were aborted?!' Then we wouldn't be here having this stew peed conversation now...Would we😭😂💀

[@ania1661]

under tooley's arguments, when is the infanticide cutoff? 10 min? a day? a week? a month? according to verywell: "Studies have demonstrated that a more complex sense of the awareness of the self begins to emerge at around one year of age and becomes much more developed by approximately 18 months of age." so is infanticide morally okay under this argument until the infant is between 12 - 18 months? also, according to WebMD, "New research shows that fetuses may learn to express their displeasure by crying silently while still in the womb as early as in the 28th week of pregnancy." if this is true, this implies that babies do have aims within the womb because aims (or a failure to meet them) bring displeasure - essentially, it implies fetuses do have preferences. so maybe birth isn't so morally significant? ^eg. "you're telling me I have to signal for food myself now? I can't just wait for someone else to eat?" the fetus still has aims - acquiring food. in both pre-birth and post-birth, reaching the aim of food is not guaranteed. for instance, the mother of the fetus could be anorexic - the fetus will still have an aim of acquiring food and can even cry if that aim isn't met. the main difference with birth is that a fetus can now signal its aims more easily.

[@MA-ou2dk]

I agree with you

[@sapereaude6935]

I believe I watched a debate where a defender of Tooley's position (not Tooley himself) conceded that under his view infanticide could even be permissible for a 3 year old. I think this is probably the best pro-choice position actually. The debate was Christopher Kaczor vs Ben Watkins on intellectual conservatism (its a very good debate).

[@sapereaude6935]

@@murph_mustela Yeah I agree it’s infanticide and I’m horrified that so many pro-choicers (pro-choice philosophers) accept it.

[@ShidoDraws]

My mom is more of a pro-life but she never enforced that idea upon others because she can maintain a household of more than 10 kids while there are people who can't. I think that's also something a lot of pro-lifers should consider, and no adoption centers are just another word for baby trashcans.

[@jenniferliu158]

I feel the same way and so do a lot of other people I know! Except we consider ourselves pro-choice, I'm not pro-abortion unless it's a very last resort and I never want to get one myself, but I do not think I have the right to make that decision for anyone else, which is why I say I'm pro-choice.

[@turquoisemoon8453]

I mean that makes your mom pro-choice, she made her choice and wants to allow others to make theirs :) I think naturally, nearly everyone is pro-life, nobody wants to kill babies. It's an unfortunate and sad requirement due to circumstances. It's incredibly heartbreaking for the mother. And an incredibly difficult decision.

[@izzyt308]

I was adopted and that is a terrible thing to say. Babies dont usually end up in foster care because tons of people want to adopt babies because they cant have their own. It's usually older kids who end up being shuffled from home to home.

[@mochihamster2794]

@@izzyt308 and how do you think those older kids ended up there? they didn’t phase into existence at that age.

[@izzyt308]

@@mochihamster2794 kids who are taken from their families by the court system because they have abusive family members or kids who are orphaned and don't have anywhere else to go.

[@bluesyleader8633]

New to this channel. I enjoy the look into other views on life.

[@Cassie-er8mb]

Loved your video! Also wanted to say where used the example of ur mum becoming a tree, the movie's name is brave. The Disney movie where her mum turns into a bear

[@lisasvids3425]

I think an important argument in the discussion revolving around the legality of infanticide vs abortion is the biological independence of the fetus/the infant. If a pregnant individual decides to abort, they do so mainly because of the impact carrying out the baby would have on their life (the risk of dying at birth, the psychological pressure of becoming a parent, the negative consequences for their social life and career, to name just a fraction). But once the human leaves the womb, its existence does not have to have any negative impacts on the parents anymore. Why kill the child if you can put it up for adoption? Where is the difference for the parents or the physicians? Therefore, the right to life is one that one receives at the time of birth. The whole discussion can be transferred to the quote "Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins" (by Zechariah Chafee Jr). During pregnany, the pregnant person's right to privacy, bodily autonomy, and health is to be held above the potentiality of the creation of a new human with a merely potential right to life. But since this conflict of rights falls away at birth, infanticide even just minutes after birth (natural or induced) is murder.

[@winnie4256]

exactly!

[@qingxinn_]

I respectfully disagree, I don't think that adoption is a viable replacement for abortion. This point ignores the mother's trauma and how tough pregnancies are; I believe it is unfair to ask a person who has been assauled to forcefully keep the baby on top of the trauma they already have. You also have to think about the child, adoption and foster homes aren't good places to live in, and it will be difficult for them when they find out the truth. My mother had me on accident and I wish I was aborted (abortion is illegal in my country). She wasn't ready for me and it shows; she gave me a horrible childhood and I haven't properly healed mentally. People always say "Think of the children, they didn't have a choice", but people need to think of how the mothers will treat them post pregnancy. To add, I think abortion should be legalized in my country. Since it's illegal, teen moms are *forced* to keep the baby or turn to at home abortions (like kicking themselves/the baby or sticking something up the womb to kill it), which I think is worse for the baby. Illegal abortions are very common here, and since the people aren't professionals, it has a high complication rate or results to death. At least if it's legal it can be controlled and less mothers would die.

[@giuba98]

@@qingxinn_ They said in the last paragraph that the pregnant person rights are still to be put first, maybe they worded it weird but I think they wanted to say “if your problems aren’t in being pregnant/giving birth but in caring of the baby, adoption is a better option. But if your problems are with being pregnant/giving birth you should be able to choose abortion” or at least that’s what I understood

[@qingxinn_]

@@giuba98 Oh I see thank you! Apologies that I misenterprated it.

[@Anxh007]

@@qingxinn_ his point ignores the mother's trauma and how tough pregnancies are she meant once the baby is born if the baby is already born then infanticide or not trauma still stays that was her point

[@kyra6744]

The scenario with Jones and Smith was very interesting, in some ways reminding me of the trolley problem. I would love to hear you talk about that if you haven't already. Great content, as usual!

[@asmrb-4138]

I think the misconceptions of abortion is that it’s a fun, pleasurable experience….it’s not. If you were raped, or assaulted and you got pregnant from that, you can absolutely be joyed to get an abortion, you are valid to feel any type of way, BUT it’s still not a situation we want to be in. I think it’s ludicrous how strangers are fighting over other strangers unborn embryos, you do not know me, so why do you care so much about my unborn child so much?? Are you the one with child? Are you the one who has to give birth? NO, so you do not have a say what I want to do with my body, so as you please with yours, but I can promise you, you will not die because I decided I cannot parent a child in this time of my life.

[@supercringeteam6666]

i really dislike how both pro life and pro choicers are demonized by opposing sides; abortion is one of the most difficult moral questions that can ever be concieved of

[@simplyluke1584]

Abortion is bad

[@myas.6485]

How are pro lifers demonized? Being pro choice isn't about choosing abortion, its about having the right to choose. Pro Lifers believe that every woman HAS to go through with a pregnancy, regardless of desire or circumstance. One is about choice and freedom while the other wants everyone to follow a path that they might not even want.

[@myas.6485]

And you say its a moral question, and yet the mother's desire and background is never added into the equation.

[@supercringeteam6666]

@@myas.6485 freedom gets more complicated when the argument is abt whether or not a fetus is a person or where a right to life comes from

[@askosefamerve]

​@@supercringeteam6666Right to life comes when you are able to live without a mother feeding you in her womb, which is the same time you become sentitent and able to feel pain.