Abusive devs & mental trauma - the tragedy of Chivalry 2

[@Liniyka]

I didn't know it at the time of making this video, but the "cheat" Dave showcased was actually just Cheat Engine. Yes, Chivalry 2 was susceptible to Cheat Engine manipulation. And that was a good enough reason for Torn Banner to ban him. Keep that in mind when you consider buying No More Room in Hell 2.

[@hmmpotato7463]

​@No_Feelings, you don't get it, random shitty youtuber 13477432564335643 actually knows him better and random shitty commenter 5785425788543566 knows that you are actually gaslighting

[@ngmisjh]

Not a legitimate reason for a perma ban

[@Eirikr-Svoboda]

There's a Brazilian dude on called Jerry the trebuchet he uses hacks, kills teammates with the catapult, blocks the way to objective, and he have a anti kick hack. He's not banned for 5 months, and a guy who literally did nothing got banned.

[@KyokushinGaming]

wait Soter Dave died?!?!?!??!?! Holy fucking shit. I missed this news. Gutted man. He was a great dude. Had the privilege of playing with him a lot.

[@lukaszboczar2441]

I'm taking it with a pinch of salt because the guy was acting childish as fuck but I heard somewhere that he was a pedo, cheater in game and just all around toxic (which I can see how he was very direct and critical but I wouldn't say toxic) the pedo stuff I'm skeptical about due to a lack of evidence. Just seems like another twomad situation imo

[@хеджхог]

@@lukaszboczar2441source: trust me bro

[@supernate760]

@@lukaszboczar2441Mr Weenie says this stuff without proof, he's spreading it to troll

[@lukaszboczar2441]

@@supernate760 he's threatening to sue me 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@supernate760]

@@lukaszboczar2441 he always does💀

[@dallasjonpaulgrove547]

Found a fun little review on Steam- "Stubborness, Selfishness, Narcissism, and pettiness are things you would find in edgy 13 year old child , but apparently these qualities infest the Torn Banner dev studio. Their toxicity and blatant nepotism in the situation led to a good guy killing himself. I never knew him, I never got to the chance to meet him and now I don't think I'll ever get that Pleasure. Dave Soter was their saving grace, one of the few Content creators that didn't actively kiss the studios behind and called them out on their mistakes. He was never unfair about it either. His april fools joke of showing how easy it is to hack in this game, probably because he wanted something done about it and he wasn't actually turning to cheating, inevitably led to a perma-ban with no communication or discussion about it from the devs. He lost a lot of revenue because he couldn't make content, he actively tried to work something out but to no avail, the toxic children in Torn Banner got the final say. Upon his mental decline and his inability to care for himself, he took his own life. I want Torn Banner devs to read this, I want this to be a constant reminder of the damage your lazy and petty ethics has done to your most valued member of this community. I hope that some day when this studio shuts down and you are all on the streets begging for scraps by passers-by that you remember how you made Dave feel, and I hope you weep."

[@seejaay]

he had the choice to keep living. if you're ending it over losing your sense of revenue without even trying to find another job, that's on him. don't blame the devs for some guy with mental illness

[@dallasjonpaulgrove547]

@@seejaay i get where you are coming from, but it's still an unprofessional and petty business model to take no criticism and only accept praise. They banned their most critical and involved member of their game over an April fools joke. (Mind you a bad one since it was literally instructions to hack) Also we don't know what Dave's situation was like, maybe it wasn't even about the revenue but a culmination of things. Either way, yeah he could've found a new job, but when people hit that low point in there life they don't know if it will ever get better or if it just keeps getting worse, no matter what they try. It's easy for people like you or me who loses a job to say "Aight, time to find a new one". Dave lost something he loved to do, and it's pathetic to say it was playing a video game for pennies to the dollar but if that's what the guy enjoyed it was what he enjoyed. I'm sure if you got a Job you loved dearly and then had it ripped away from you for a dumb reason you'd be pretty pissed. Only difference between you and Dave is you'd probably find another job to hold yourself down for the moment until you could find something better. Mental illness is not something that everyone overcomes, I want you to understand that. Is TB directly responsible? No, but they sure as shit gave him a nudge in the wrong direction.

[@TemperateGreenBananaClassic]

@@seejaay pretty brain damaged considering the game was his passion and calling, if you do everything for money you would never understand that a lot of very competent people stick to a job they perform well at and feel fulfilled doing. If you love your job you never have to work a day in your life as they say.

[@tadeaspekar9043]

@@seejaaydont blame the devs for absolutely gross behavior just bcs some guy killed himself? i am sorry but all i hear from you is a significant amount of ignorancy. “he had the choice to keep living” bro are you even listening to yourself?

[@tadeaspekar9043]

@@seejaayand how his end change anything said in the video? or did you even watch the video? it is there explicitelly said that this wasn’t the main reason, just an unnecessary one

[@dviper2093]

I don't get how people didn't see this coming. They were like this with the first game as well as Deadliest Warrior.

[@James-l5s7k]

Not at all.

[@captaincs8440]

Its crazy i got banned for saying that they should add a memorial in game, and i am not the only one. They literally censored everything on the discord. Also there's some rage baiter like mrweenie and swan that are trying to profit his death for views or idk. And the saddest is that dave's mom saw these videos...

[@hollowtavo7612]

It's sad he's dead and all but they don't know him.....they owe him literally nothing I can respect he was appreciated in the community but asking something like that is entitled asf he was a good player who constantly criticized the devs pretty harshly its not easy to make a game so I can see their resentment towards him

[@captaincs8440]

@@hollowtavo7612 nah i see what you mean but censoring like that is crazy, they could have done a memorial so that at least players view this company better...

[@Vaz44-4]

@@hollowtavo7612 what do you mean they owe him nothing? He was an active member of the community and was harsh to the devs because he wanted the game to succeed. He already paid for the game but not only that, he was hosting events, teaching people how to play well and overall being a good community member. But not only they won't make a memorial -- because it's already obvious the devs despised him just for being frank about the game -- they will try to hide his importance in the community.

[@ViperOfMino]

@@Vaz44-4 He did all of that voluntarily, and profited off of it (which is actually a good thing, I wish I could make money off making videos of my favorite game). The devs don't own him shit, whether he paid for the game or not.

[@Shinkiro0o]

Mrweenie is literally a TB dev, he helped developing the game.

[@theycallmetray396]

I appreciate you taking a look at your own actions and criticizing them.

[@Liniyka]

Yeah, sometimes you really gotta think before you speak. Which I didn't.

[@GPanglah]

@@Liniykaim sure i would have agreed with what you said. Makes you feel bad for playing the game and enjoying it sometimes. Great video sir

[@ExaltedKoko]

Y'know, it's always mind--boggling to me how cruel and heartless a group of people could be.

[@KennedyJr2024]

That describes Trump supporters

[@ExaltedKoko]

@@KennedyJr2024 Stop making everything about politics, y'all are actually annoying.🤦‍♂

[@KennedyJr2024]

@@ExaltedKoko understood dude. Sorry

[@F_Yale]

@@KennedyJr2024 Spastic.

[@romaboo6218]

@@KennedyJr2024 that describes biden supporters

[@SluggoMan]

It’s always a punch in the face coming back to a content creator you watched back then and only to pull the channel, see they haven’t posted in a bit, then find out they died…

[@Scribit339]

R.I.P Dave may you find your peace in heaven that you could not find on earth.

[@Numbskulli]

Thanks for the reupload, was in the middle of watching and i was confused. I feel terrible for Soter Dave and his family, and i can say with certainty i am never playing this game again. I would hope some large content creators pick this up. This situation is awful.

[@kiloftd]

i learned about this from reviews i saw on my xbox. i saw the game as part of the holiday sale, but with all this i'm definitely steering clear...

[@kylewinters8531]

Literally the same thing was happening to Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes and best content creators were banned for exposing how easy it was to cheat in the game. At least nobody died there, rest in peace Soter Dave.

[@DrCups113]

Chivalry and Mordhau. Cruel rude devs that won't listen to their community and feel like they know better than everyone else because of their huge egos for games that maybe peaked at 50k players on release. Cut from the same cloth in more ways then one...

[@Ossuarian]

As an original player of Chiv1 during launch I remember people got pissed off by Torn Banner even back then for quickly shifting their focus to weird spin off games like that mage knight thing and Deadliest Warrior. To me they quickly squandered every ounce of trust in a couple of months 12 years ago. Imagine my surprise when I saw them coming out of the woodwork with Chivalry 2 a decade later and people willing to gobble it up again. Depressing to read that they somehow managed to abuse the trust put into them once more and sink to even deeper lows this time around.

[@eqou]

Should generally make a video about chivalry 2's downfall.

[@Liniyka]

Well, I don't think Chiv 2 has "fallen" or anything, it's still a decent enough game. I just really don't like how devs acted here, and how almost nobody mentioned it on KZbin

[@eqou]

@@Liniyka imo it has fallen, if you look at the game most veterans already quit the game, the game is basically full of new players as of now

[@seejaay]

he's just profiting of the drama, he doesn't really care^^^

[@BaldianOfIbelin]

​@@eqouEven though it's not a good sign that it happens mainly because of the reasons they leave, Veterans leaving a game is not a sign of a game dying especially if the game is full of newcomers. Because all games depend more on casuals than on veterans, since if all the veterans leave and only casuals remain, eventually new veterans will be born among them while if all the casuals leave and the veterans stay, the chances are that no more newbies will come and over time (if the game doesn't close due to so many people leaving) the veterans will also leave

[@eqou]

@@BaldianOfIbelin yea fair

[@Mr_Chunk]

I remember first stumbling upon the original video and hearing literally one word before the video was privated. Fortunately, I remembered this in the middle of the night and had to dig it back up.

[@SGS408RAZO]

well dang. i just started playing Chivalry2 only got 20hrs in so far, but ive watched Soter Dave's videos and even saved his playlist because of how helpful and useful they were, i was honestly waiting and looking foward to more content as well. this is terribly sad news to read and learn about, almost sullies my enjoyment for the game, but i guess from now on i will be fighting in honor of Soter Dave .

[@RichardRMM]

Yo Liniyka, you should make a video, collecting info about the current sh*tstorm they made with NMRIH2.

[@Armoredcompany]

AAA studios and publishers don't even care about their own employees, why should we expect them to care about their consumers. As long as the profit margins are up, nothing else matters.

[@EdwardVC]

A damn loss, I barely met Soter to learn how to use the rapier. I was a fan of his, but it's unfortunate that he couldn't be with us anymore.

[@Tourettes-syndrome-gaming]

They didn’t know that he was gonna kill himself. There’s definitely some other thing that happened behind the scenes that made him do this also depression.

[@migueeeelet]

Which is why the reddit response is super boiler-plate. It tells you to remember that the other person may be going through things... but they clearly put 0 thought into remembering that when they banned him.

[@Tourettes-syndrome-gaming]

@@migueeeelet yea

[@firstnamelastname8833]

Developers for games in the past have banned players to get rid of steam reviews. They'll use any excuse to modify their reviews.

[@EpicGamingGuruReal]

This is seriously messed up. Company greed at its finest. Ruining an entire game for lack of reasoning and costing someone their life

[@tedtheodore5715]

Blud really dedicated his entire life on a game to the point he'd game end himself over it

[@bertolol9520]

That’s why as I’m writing this comment the game is almost dead with a peak of 2400 players. It kills me that Dave passed away for such madness but I see how this game meant a lot to him.I hate that there is such cruelty in such insignificant things.that made us lose one of our most stand up soldiers. Dave expressed and said all of the problems people had with the game and yet no one listened on torn banner’s behalf. RIP Dave 🕊️

[@keyetso]

I appreciate you covering this. I noticed you talked about the lack of coverage from other creators and its understandably frustrating. I am also at fault for this as I was working on a project with other editors for Dave's channel which took a lot of my time. I have been working on a script which covers, in depth, the entirety of the situation and how he felt about the whole thing, similar to your video. Again, thank you for putting this out there.

[@Onward4theLight]

I want to add my own experience with the dev team of Torn Banner. I have 1.4k hours in chiv2. I think it's been happening for quite a while now but for the last few months it has gotten pretty extreme and their no other explanation other than TB harrassment. My player character has been debuffed, health, damage dealt, and lag has been added. This can only happen server side to the best of my knowledge. EXAMPLE SESSION. In the first round of a night I will be hitting 2/1 k/d or even, and then they notice I'm playing, and the next round, I can't even get a single kill or parry anything. My character feels slow and team damage is way higher than it needs to be. While this is going on, the top players in 1 and 2 slots are hitting 40-1 etc and the chat is as sour as it can get. They gas light me and try to bully me constantly. When call out what is going happening. I don't know how this can be done without consent from TB because they have to have server side controls and access. One example after the snow level was introduced the dev team quietly remove the permanent mute feature from the game. No patch notes or anything. I should have known then. The culture at TB is toxic and as a long-term supporter of the game and the first game, I honestly have to come to terms with what TB are. A seriously dangerous and toxic group of people and I don't think buying any of their games is a good idea. They really do seem abusive like no other game dev team I've seen. I just wanted to put this review or report of chiv 2024 here because I might get a reasonable ear. RIP soterdave.

[@lukegarner7217]

Rip Davey may you find many worthy opponents in the afterlife

[@drewross3221]

I didn’t know companies were hiring mouth breathing tweens with power trips to their PR teams

[@NeoMitsuko]

If they do this damage to Chivary, imagine what they will do to No mo room in hell 2?

[@magikarp9718]

Nailed it

[@Dr.Oofers]

This aged like wine. Unfortunately.

[@jeremiahsand3617]

After his death the game died too, ironic.

[@dannyearlreal]

The devs were wrong for banning the guy in the first place, but in NO WAY are they responsible for his suicide. Nobody had any idea what Dave was going through, and the ban was essentially the "last straw" for him. If a depressed gambler calls out a casino for shoddy practices, gets banned from that casino, then kills himself, is it really the casino's fault?The fact that people are going after the devs for this is pathetic, and just shows how immature the Chivalry 2 community is.

[@Liniyka]

Going after the devs for their terrible behavior isn't pathetic in the slightest, regardless if their decisions influenced Dave or not (probably did)

[@dannyearlreal]

​@@LiniykaGoing as far to call the devs "murderers" and claiming they are responsible for a man's suicide IS pathetic. How did anyone on the team know Dave was going to kill himself? How are you supposed to react in a situation like this?

[@Liniyka]

No, that is indeed too much, hence why the reupload. But they do deserve to be criticized. They are a company and they make money off of people - so it is only fair that these people hold them to a higher standard

[@seejaay]

i still don't see how the devs behaviour is "terrible" or why you feel the need to tell the masses to leave reviews on steam. the devs are not responsible for his actions.

[@l.r.j.r.6356]

I won't make any comments on your person danny because i would rather think that your point of view comes from a dumb child or an edgy teenager. They clearly went out of their way to be as petty as possible not only for the ban but also for contacting him afther the incident if not why make sure Dave knew his pleas for a solution where falling on deaf ears?, the game was crumbling i am sure that his ban wasnt the only problem they had in their hands yet among the player reports, bugs and exploits they made a point out of answering to Dave, to make him know there was no way back. The devs petty as they are like sick dogs wanted a gotcha moment to make an example out of him, i know this because they are not an exception but sadly a common occurrence among, (if we can still consider them), the indi dev scene, from calling out in forum's to discord bans over nonsense, i have witness all and also play a part in it, afther all a rat recognizes other rats, obviously they didn't knew Dave would do what he did, nor anyone could have, yet they still with malice and ill will knew that they could hurt him damage him; i can recall from the top of my head when a discord mod out of eagerness to punish a recurring and active member of the community of a certain game i won't mention, decided to go out of his way to stalk said person screen shot his conversations on a public forum and use them for basis for a ban from the discord, thankfully he didn't held more power over the user's usage of the actual game and could still enjoy it, what did he said when asked what he did?, "i just had to get rid of an annoying fly" he answered, afther talking with the victim apparently the mod had gotten mad because unbeknownst to him and other already banned people, they poked fun at a certain "perk" (to called it some way) the mod had designed, calling it useless and redundant, this was apparently enough to trigger the petty rat hidden inside the mod; this and other cases, or meltdowns, clearly paint a picture for me that the rats at Torn Barn Studios wanted to harm Dave, yes i dont expect sympathy from a casino even less from a company, but actions like this can only be taken by people who's behavior is only compared with hungry vicious horrendous animals, afther all cruelty, and punishment was only possible for them thanks to the power they held over Dave, driven and afforded by the love and passion he expressed for the game, pathetic where only and will only be those that seeked to harm him, and the ones that fail to acknowledge the damage that was done to him by the actions taken by the rats at banner studios, their motives where clear they are no saints to plea innocent nor evade reprimands or their involvement.

[@Vaz44-4]

This honestly is both heartbreaking and infuriating. Never took the chance to delve deeper into the game to notice those issues, mainly because I didn't play when the hacker issues arose, but seeing how immature-- no; despicable and inhumane to not only permaban someone leaving constructive criticism, but also then fakely mourn his suicide short after is just abhorrent. Won't play the game again and will leave a negative review. Thanks for pointing this out to the rest of the playerbase. Also, I'll be leaving this comment mainly to boost the algorithm in your favor, so more players know of this news.

[@shoulderpyro]

A reviewbombing happened already and had no effect. Its a shitty situation aye but isnt it just as odd to blame a single game ban for someone's self-termination? there had to be other stuff to it. ...either that or I'm seriously overestimating his mental stability.

[@No_Feelings]

@@shoulderpyro Hey I was a friend and clanmate of Dave, I commented a bit ago clearing up some of the confusion though I understand I'm a little late to the party (there's been more than a few videos like this one popping up, and seeing my friend's death misrepresented on youtube isnt the easiest thing to watch). If you want a proper explanation of what happened go find my comment, otherwise i'll just leave it at Dave struggled with poor mental health for a very long time and the impact of his ban was negligible in his decision to kill himself from the understanding we gained from his family.

[@shoulderpyro]

@@No_Feelings I meant no disrespect with my comment either. I do genuinely feel for those he left behind. But seeing videos like these just.. well. Piss me off. Even if I did not know him personally, these videos just feel like they use his untimely passing to boost their own views and income. I'll look for your comment later, as I've got to leave for work in a bit. Thanks for the information.

[@Vaz44-4]

@@shoulderpyro I think not of putting every ounce of blame to the Devs, but I do think they should feel partially involved when the person at hand devoted so much for the product you've made, outside even the direct implication of your product -- for example creating media for said game, hosting a community and being friendly towards new players and concurrent players alike, teaching them on several aspects of the game and even hosting community events --. When all he wanted was the game to succeed and the developers opted to treat him horribly unjustly then it's not a matter of opinion that these acts committed by such childish individuals have affected in some way or another to his mental state. We have to remember the amount of effort, time and dedication he poured into the game and the community he nurtured; only to be washed away for wanting the game to succeed. Again, I'm not putting the entire blame of his suicide to this act alone, but you can't deny that this situation might have tipped the balance just enough for him to choose to end it all. We might never know what might have happened in its life along these times before and during the ban, but it is obvious that he was not well already before this occurred.

[@Vaz44-4]

@@No_Feelings I'm deeply sorry if I ever offended you in any way, since the only information I have at hand is this video and the information I got from the last publications of Soter Dave's channel. I never meant to put to blame only the events involving the dev team of Chiv2 and Soter, and I'll try and find your comment before saying anything else. I'm so sorry about his passing, really.

[@rustydude93]

RIP Dave, thanks for this video.

[@I_am_a_cat_]

Its such a great game, it makes me sad how much they've dropped the ball. There's still random freezes in game, team switchers, the main menu ui is still a broken mess, YEARS LATER. I love this game, but I can only take so much at a time. I'll play for a couple days, and then not touch it for months. Mainly because of the team switching. it's so annoying having the best players all switch to one team. I'm pretty good, but you can only do so much with a team of beginners. I haven't really cheatersany cheaters in my years of play... at least not obvious ones, until last night. Last night I fought at archer that would land every shot he took at me, and he would shoot at me while his back was facing me. I'd think I was safe to move up and then BAM, arrow in the face, shot through his back. Made me realize there isn't really any way to report cheaters... they want you to go to their discord and show video proof. That shouldn't be on me.

[@Geferulf_TAS]

I only started playing Chiv 2 because a dev mod playing in a pub server on Mordhau banned my account for a year for swearing "excessively".

[@Lore-mc7zw]

don't try Bannerlord, it's even worse.

[@God-ch8lq]

how tf do u get banned from fkn mordhau for "swearing excessively"

[@Geferulf_TAS]

@@God-ch8lq Ask the developer admins. There's a ton of people in Steam Forums that complain about being banned for swears the developers don't like.

[@DrPwnU915]

im almost positive that this kind of situation with torn banner has happened before in the past, as well as like a few other valve games lol

[@Dodo_Boi]

first mordhau with whatever the fuck triternion is doing, and now Torn Banner. Healthy Genre i say /s.

[@hachijospaniard5643]

Is like the real fault are for people like you or something...

[@Lore-mc7zw]

the less said about the state of Mount And Blade Bannerlord and their creators at Taleworld, the better, in some ways it's arguably worse

[@vanlioren]

I was on my way to get the game for free on epic games but after watching this I am absolutely not stooping down to such a disgusting level to support the devs, absolutely heartbreaking that this has happened.

[@TheRadoss]

This needs to be brought to a bigger audience , I’ve spoke to one of Asmongolds mods about this and he will bring it to him to delve into live on stream at some point.

[@Zvly521]

Rip 20mm. He was a great friend of mine for many years...

[@lisaloki]

Commented on the original because I hugely disagreed with how it was presented, for obvious reasons. Respect for editing/reuploading it. That said, still a little iffy on the reupload. The whole "It could have been the thing that pushed him over the edge" just feels so needless, because if it's true that him being banned pushed him over the edge, then there are a million different things that also could have (and likely WOULD have) done that too. Not the mention, the "when games kill" title is still implying Torn Banner is to blame for his death. Just feels like it's being less overt than the original video. imo, there is no good way to make a video tying in Dave's suicide with Torn Banner's treatment of him. It just makes it look like you're trying to use his death to push an agenda (an agenda I totally agree with.)

[@Liniyka]

There is also absolutely no way they get a free pass. They mistreated a struggling man, and they deserve to be called out for it. Someone has to talk about it, and so far I'm the only one

[@s.e.c.u.8340]

@@Liniyka All they did was a ban, "They mistreated a struggling man" how would they even know about this? they're a company, what calling out? this ban doesn't have anything to do with his death and no one could know unless the person who banned him were very close and knew and banned intentionally to break him more, which isn't the case

[@lisaloki]

​@@Liniyka I'm not saying they should be given a free pass. I'm saying the ban should be talked about separately from his suicide. Tying both things together for one vid just comes across as using the suicide to try to make a point. Their treatment of Dave can be horrible without needing to bring the guy's death into it.

[@jonathonsayre4879]

@@s.e.c.u.8340 Well on you or me all they did was a ban. Have Twitch randomly ban Asmongold for no reason and watch the reaction. Even G0at from Tarkov didn't get an account ban for what HE did and he actively experimented with cheats for a while for a video on a Smurf account. The Wiggle That Killed Tarkov. Let me watch you build a community of well over 5 thousand people and then nuke it and see what you do. Like obviously you're probably not as self destructive, but it wouldn't mean that you WOULDN'T get depressed for a while. That shit would make you angry and sad if you couldn't get your work and progress back. Spending over 20hrs editing, recording, and performing all for some asshole to press a button and now what right? So it's just a ban for him where it would be for you and me. You and I are not making money from something we CAN get banned from.

[@shoulderpyro]

@@s.e.c.u.8340 glad to see theres at least a few other people in here who can think with reason and logic rather than just emotion.. TB had their role to play, sure. But blaming them solely for this is just uncalled for.

[@omarmangudo3232]

To what point are we getting right now? A videogame brand can't just be turned down for a bad desition. While Soter Dave was an amazing content creator and his guides will always be remembered you can't just put the blame on Torn Banner. I was against the ban; while Soter move was not wise at all as the ban was then justified. I personally think it was to be removed, or even he would be able to play the next game in 2, 3 years maybe. Thing is no matter how much you appreciate a person; Ultimately they didn't end the guys life, he did and there was no way they knew the outcome. As far as we know Torn banner could be made by exceptional people and just a strict policy about cheat spread yet you guys want to put a man's life on them...not cool, ridiculus even. This ain't a side battle, this was just terrible news. Long live Soter and my deepest respect for his family.

[@BlueBirdsProductions]

I have never heard of this man, and i play mordhau not Chiv2. That being said, I highly doubt he killed himself over a ban in a videogame. Especially one that you say he wasnt even happy with to begin with. He probably had a lot going on with his real life, the Chiv2 thing is likely insignificant. What mentally stable person would do that? Thats actually a completely insane thing to do. If he really did it over that, then the only person that could be held accountable would have been himself. Trying to blame specific people because a crazy person did a crazy thing is childish and pathetic. I feel like you've subconsciously connected the dots without looking into any other background information and are now trying to use a mans suicide to push for change in a game. If he killed himself entirely over a game then I actually don't feel bad for the guy, thats one of the most ridiculously stupid deaths in human history.

[@No_Feelings]

It had nothing to do with his ban, some of dave's other clanmates and I have talked with his family who confirmed that. This guy is just using our friend's death to make a hit piece.

[@Lore-mc7zw]

@@No_Feelings How much are Torn paying you people?

[@keepinggamers7425]

RIP

[@Axscyi]

yeah this game is just sad now. like its so bad everyones so weird to they kick u when you are better than them like tf im tryna play the game and i have to wait 30 mins each time

[@Rosispergia]

In an effort to make the game relevant it seems that Chivalry 2 is now for free on Epic...Are you kidding me? The Steam comments brought me to this video, and I am glad I did. Damn

[@xblack_nebulax9819]

Bro I recently found this out I’m genuinely pissed. I was about to reinstall and plays some games until I saw Rip Dave and I was wondering why they said that. This is just disappointing so disappointing for what they did.

[@Armaversum]

im really sorry for him. but REALLY.....if someone takes his life because of a situation like that, its definitly not the fault of some video game developers, thats insane. you cant blame that on other people.........."they could have saved his life" Eeerm just NO???

[@Tourettes-syndrome-gaming]

They didn’t know that he was gonna kill himself. There’s definitely some other thing that happened behind the scenes that made him do this also depression. You can’t just blame torn banner for his suicide. Getting banned from chivalry two (I know the depressed people don’t think very clearly but still) getting banned from chivalry two sure it might suck, but it’s not gonna make someone commit suicide. you never know what’s really going on in someone’s life if all you know about them is their online activity.

[@minotaur818]

This whole situation still puzzles me to this day. Was the ban and subsequent "communication" between TB and Dave were simply done through Ai or automated messages? How could TB not understand that the video was simply meant to tell people about the rampant cheating issue. Corporate support is shit lets be real, but this is someone who the devs know about - or at least know he is a content creator and involved in events related to the game.

[@theeldestrelic]

Saw your review on steam before buying, was so shocked and appalled that I had to look into it. This is disgusting.

[@mikedavies565]

Will you ever reupload the original

[@Charles-rx5cz]

this is one of the only games i know where the skill gap can be so huge it tilts ppl into trolls. kinda sad but theres nothing you can do if the devs dont care. look at tarkov. Rip Soter Dave.

[@sigmatracing421]

Lmao i just got done watching the original right before it was deleted, i wonder how different this one will be?

[@Liniyka]

Not that different, just a lot less hate in the second part of the vid

[@justsomeguy2886]

NGL much like my comment on the og vid, you didn't really change the main accusatory point, it really comes off as you using his passing as a tool to complain about the devs. They may be guilty of not taking criticism well and being petty assholes but that's by no means cause to act like they are somehow directly responsible, again i hate to say it but it REALLY comes off as you just tying to dunk on the devs and make a vid about it. Again I hope that's not the case but it's super hard not to see it as such.

[@Tosicamir]

Yeah, that's the vibe I get, too. Mental health IS important, but nobody is omniscient. Way too much blame tossing here to make me take the call to action seriously.

[@shoulderpyro]

If anything, the longer I've got this playing while looking through comments the more I get the vibe hes unhappy the original reviewbomb didnt pan out as expected and now reuploaded it to try it a second time. ..either that or just using someone's death to boost their own attention

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

Ok had to rewatch this again. It's really commendable that you take comments to heart and decided to take a step back and reassess. However, this still ain't it. You're still laying the blame on the devs for Dave's decision to take his own life. Describing it as a defining nudge in a critical moment is just as incriminating as your last framing of the events. The title: when games kill. Does little to disabuse people of that notion. So I'll try to repeat my comment because I think it still stands: The decision to take his own life is ON HIM and ON HIM alone. Laying ANY blame on the devs is callous and gross. He could have moved on and found meaningful experiences elsewhere. He could have circumvented the ban and kept playing. He could have not dedicated hours upon hours to a game that by your own admission, often fails to deliver the bare minimum. The devs didn't make him devote his life to the game and they certainly didn't make him post the hack instructions in a public video. All they did is make a game to the best (even if it's nowhere near good enough) of their abilities and enforce their ToS using their best (even if it's not very good) judgement. We can 't expect anyone to be walking on eggshells on the off chance we might be on the edge of doing something regrettable. That's not how life works. We can act as humanely and kindly as possible, sure, but ultimately we're the masters of our own fate, captains of our own ship. If one of the devs decided to take his/her own life after watching the video would we have to lay the blame on you? No, riddiculous. So, this video still looks like an oportunistic attempt at rallying discontent against the devs using Dave's tragedy as fuel. Not great.

[@Liniyka]

I think you're still a bit caught on the original message. That's not what I'm saying here. In this one, I'm trying to put emphasis on how easily they discarded such an important person in their community because of 1 slip up. If they practiced what they preached, and approached him with kindness and respect, they could have been the ones to turn his life around. Imagine how awesome that would be. But alas, they just cut him off because they could, and because they knew the community wouldn't complain too much. After all, that's the norm these days. tl/dr - regardless of whether it impacted Dave or not, this kind of terrible behavior needs to be called out

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

@@Liniyka See that's the issue: It's not on them to change his life around. His life was HIS to turn around. They are not tasked with being a positive, nurturing or healing influence in his life. They're certainly not responsible for whatever he does if they turn to be the opposite (especially if they felt his stance was adversarial and detrimental to their vision for the game). They may have been overzealous in their ban, sure, but saying Chivalry Killed is just not true. It's a toxic interpretation of the events and like I said, it only serves your intention to leverage discontent against the devs. I suspect you'll be in the chopping block next. At the end of the day, it's a game. If he had such a personal stake in it that he couldn't see himself being alive after a ban (which I doubt and I'm guessing there's a huge amount of compounding factors at play) that's on him for not balancing his life properly. Not on the devs. The takeaway here shouldn't be that devs need to take their work dead serious because it's all some really depressed people have. It should be that you should never see a game as your life. And if you do, you'd do well in choosing a game in which you actually get along well with the dev team. And again, you haven't changed the video enough for people to draw other conclusions from it. It still has the same title, premise and reasoning.

[@Liniyka]

Isn't it quite literally the job of community managers to foster a healthy and positive community? And I don't mean to watch over every single CC to make sure they're OK, but just, at least, not being trigger happy like that. Didn't change the vid enough? Maybe. But at this point changing anymore would be taking away from what I wanted to say. Right or wrong, this is how I feel.

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

@@Liniyka Their perspective of a healthy community didn't include him, obviously. Right or wrong, that's not a reason to off yourself and it certainly doesn't put the devs on the hook for his death. That's all i'm saying: that laying the actions of the dev team as context for the suicide is misleading, unfair and, again, quite callous in my opinion. I ask you again because you didn't answer: what would happen if your disparaging comments against the devs were followed by the suicide of one of them and then cited as the reason for it? Would you expect society to blame you? Be honest now.

[@Liniyka]

That would be an entirely different situation, in no way similar to this one.

[@eggsbenedict831]

Me after seeing the title: "Is that why the game never got polished? So much for being the one to replace For Honor."

[@arepupu]

What a terrible situation all around...

[@woodsgump]

Damn this is sad, RIP Sator Dave

[@dizzedx99]

If a person is in a place that’s so bad and dark that a game ban is the last straw towards the decision of ending their own LIFE only means that it already was very bad, something way more personal was going on in his life and the ban likely contributed to his last decision but I don’t know if the devs can be held accountable for his decision. Either way, condolences to the family.

[@Katyusha94]

Regardless, this should still get to bigger youtubers.,

[@frankk9583]

you should show more of what you are talking about for example the bugs introduced in the new patches, because i have not played this game and have no clue what you are talking about

[@Korbin-fe6vp]

It's because the bugs actually have been fixed by Tornbanner

[@ZVIXVY]

are we playing the same game?

[@fennikk2433]

Literally, I haven't seen any issues with the game and I've been playing for years

[@ZVIXVY]

@@fennikk2433 dude thank you, I have been playing also for years im like level 500 and ive never seen a cheater ever in my entire life

[@TheNazgulBird]

Same. I've been playing since the release and never encountered cheaters or any major bugs. Chivalry 2 ain't getting a bad review on steam from me.

[@ZVIXVY]

@@TheNazgulBird dude thank you, you're totally right. i've never seen any of this shit. these guys are fucking sensitive or some shit.

[@Urgaas]

FairAndReasonable-pilled

[@bitterweet5115]

banning him for that is next level petty

[@thestig6281]

this message should be spread

[@urskrik6353]

The dude was using his money to fund an animal shelter?!? The best people on this earth simply do not belong in this world I guess

[@Fender1031]

Nonsense. Soter has all the responsibility here. Torn Banner has a policy of not sharing and promoting cheating and Soter did exactly that. As a company you cannot make policies like "Do not promote hacking or modification of the game" and then have exceptions because a person is dealing with mental health issues. When you function as a business you have to make policies based on reasonable people and those of sound mind. Do you expect developers to reach out with crisis counseling every time they ban someone for violating policies? There are a few lessons that I hope people take from this experience. The expectation from the community was that "He did so much, how dare Torn Banner ban him". He violated a policy that literally every game developer has, do not promote cheating. Its as simple as that. While he "did so much for the community" he also profited off of it... Most game developers when it comes down to the brass tacks and cash of a game, they could care less because if you are going to a tutorial page you already bought the game... At that point you are just making money off of their content... The next argument - "Banning him took his financial stability away and that lead to his downfall" Here is a valuable lesson then- do not rely on single sources of income if you are going to have to rely on another persons or companies product or service because they have all the control and you have next to nothing. If you are going to play that game and try to make money on KZbin about a product or service then you have to follow their rules, its as simple as that. Any day KZbin could end monetization, that would have ended his career , are you going to blame KZbin for his death? Any day Torn Banner could have turned off the servers, that would have ended his career, are you going to blame Torn Banner for his death ? This is all absurd. Soter's banning was entirely his fault. Torn Banner does not need to hold the hand of people who are openly criticizing them. Blaming his death on Torn Banner is an insult to the guys memory because you are essentially saying he was so weak willed a game ban ended his life.

[@Chivalry2Clips]

Cheat engine doesn't work on chivalry, it doesn't have values you can change ingame. He used it as a joke to make fun of TBS in a period where cheaters overran asia and eu servers and were entering NA.

[@lupvirga]

legit, only had at most 2 hours in Chivalry 1 on steam (the only place i bought it). my bro, who ACTUALLY enjoys the game, starts playing, through family share. Devs BAN ME because they said i was smurfing. HOW THE FUCK WAS I SMURFING I HAD LESS HOURS THEN MY BRO AND I'M THE FUCKING OWNER! They're a horrible dev team who don't use their heads and i believe are doing some shady as fuck shit.

[@shteud01]

I played a melee brawl games from the times of War of the Roses. And all devs of WOTR, CHIV, and MORDHAU later simply go in mode "'I DON'T GIVE A FUCK what you think"'. IDK why, but it's frustrating. So small market and there is no choice at all. But people who play this game are dedicated and loyal. Just need listen to them and give what they asked for...

[@lorenzovilla2385]

2:40 like a certain ziggylata...

[@LitterallyJustCoal]

It isn't fair to put any of the blame on TBS. They suck, don't get me wrong, but there is no way they could have known that banning Dave would result in something like this, if it had anything to do with his decision at all. Two things can be true at once, TBS is a bad company riddled with internal problems akin to a middle school lunch table, and Dave had issues that he chose not to seek help for.

[@Henry-ip8dd]

oh wow Soter Dave i watched him when Chivalry 2 came out!

[@DuffiTime]

This is some dope logic m8

[@alexd6557]

i dont play this game or even games like it, i play military shooters, but i was looking at this game on steam, and someone in the steam reviews recommended this video. its fucking monstrous what these devs did to this guy, i would check the game out, but no way im giving them my money.

[@BjarneKadolsky]

I just got the game from epic games since it is the free game this week. I looked through Steam to see what the mixed reviews were about and one linked this video. That's some cruel shit just because someone hurt their ego. I guess I'll kick the game if that's the type of company they are. And even if I were to play it I as a noob would just have to endure godless amounts of hackers anyways. Thank you for the video and I hope you won't face any retaliation from the devs.

[@ponynightxd1163]

I just learned about this news and I uninstall the game because of it because I cannot believe a development team would go this far. Also fun fact on the Xbox store they disabled the ability to put reviews because of how much people were going on about this.

[@crynaek1454]

Honestly glad you re-did this, again, no offense, but the first was certainly reaching on a lot of points

[@megapixel4664]

I just bought this game and thought everything would be peaceful and fun to play but no, i watched it and felt sadness for what they did. Idk what to do it’s the only fun game i have seen and purchasable i can buy. But ofc gaming companies always ruin the fun with their greedy and stupid acts they would do to their audience. Cant i just even have a peaceful time to find a good game to play without any controversial stuff that is so bad and somehow wasted my money to a game that has something gone too far. Lord knows when will their corrupted deeds be done…

[@Lifen1]

I got a perm banned for using the laugh emote..

[@Extolence]

thanks for this

[@Romix_AA]

Now the game is for free on Epic Games and I eagerly want to play it (after positive experience with Chiv 1), but after hearing these problems, as well as cheater issue (which is now going to be even more severe) I doubt I will enjoy it

[@Real-Grandpa]

dont own it on steam, but left a message on their discord before i left

[@maboilaurence8227]

I literally reinstalled the game thanks to Soter Dave's guides, can't believe these scumbags didn't even apologize for that ban and then tried to save face with a tonedeaf reddit post. I thought nothing could make me reinstall Mordhau but this + the demonhorde mode just did.

[@peopleperson]

nah if U killed yourself over a game ban thats definitely ur own problems with ur brain

[@slinkerdeer]

The amount of people completely ignoring the fact that company ruined his entire income for no reason and leaving him with zero legal recourse is astounding

[@Chivalry2Clips]

I saw the game ban live, it was very disgusting dude. In the tournament chiv discord where two devs were in, refused to communicate with Dave, after they were told on it by other community members, they just said "seek out tornbanners support" they told only to other people not even him. They made him feel like a non human being doing that.

[@ChristianPierce]

dude didnt even have 10k subs i doubt it was his main source of income

[@olha2]

So thornback soter dave did not cheat, but was banned?

[@badmonkey2468]

holy shit this is tragic :( I was looking at the game on steam and saw some reviews mentioning this. Guess I'll try Mordhau then

[@An_Overcooked_Pie]

To all the people saying the devs shouldnt be blamed...i disagree. Sure they shouldnt get ALL the blame, who would have seen it coming? However...banning him without any discussion, effectively stumping and trashing his revenue, did NOT help, and they handled the situation terribly. Like someone else said, its not to indifferent to banning an athlete from sports. And lets not mention their other behaviors, before and after...

[@SAK11RA]

I think that Torn Banner is just too inept to fix the cheating problem. I dont see any reason why they would benefit from duel servers being infested with hackers

[@CMFF-60S]

God loves you all and has a pan for your life

[@mykolPZ]

You cannot even mention his name on the forums, they are actively trying to delete him.

[@Adam-hs9ft]

The chivalry 2 balancing and overall development direction are why i stopped supporting them and playing their game. How I wish mordhau or even mf for honor would pull something out of left field to give the audience niche something better than a game made by shitty torn banner

[@ViperGTS_R]

Wait what? So torn banner just killed their dedicated fan of the game? Jesus

[@BaHo_0]

Didn't see anything in this video that would be a solid proof that the ban was actually the reason for commiting sudoku, but if it's true the way you say it - all i can say is lol. Lol, the dude ended his ENTIRE LIFE over getting a ban in a videogame. I call this natural selection.

[@Dr.Oofers]

Bad bait

[@Leaf__22]

The mental gymnastics are insane

[@HitlerSenpie]

yes new content 9 updates thought 4 years and destroying class

[@CallmeBuck_456]

None of his friends or family blame TB nor did any of the guys he ran a podcast with but I guess you knew him better. It is fair to say that him getting banned from the game contributed to a decline in his mental health but even if this game was his life that would not make someone want to fucking kill themselves. To continue to perpetuate this in your video and in its comments is pathetic and downright disgusting.

[@Liniyka]

"It is fair to say that him getting banned from the game contributed to a decline in his mental health" - yeah, that's my point. They acted like assholes, and they deserve to be called out for it.

[@CallmeBuck_456]

​@@Liniyka You literaly insinuate in the title of this video that he would still be alive today if TB had not banned him. You even spell it out clearly in one of your comments, "Going after the devs for their terrible behavior isn't pathetic in the slightest, regardless if their decisions influenced Dave or not (probably did)". Do understand why you are the self-proclaimed "only one" to make a video on TB role in this situation and not any of his friends? Seriously ask yourself that question. I personally think it is because they are adults who think that blaming his suicide on a game is fucking ridiculous. But since you new him better than anybody I'd love to hear what you have to think.

[@Liniyka]

@@CallmeBuck_456 If they acted like decent human beings, I believe the future could have been different, yes. However small that possibility is. And if you believe that their actions did not influence him in the slightest, I disagree, and that's all there is to say.

[@CallmeBuck_456]

​@@Liniyka They didn't know what Dave was going through. They acted like anyone would in their situation. He showed people how to cheat and they banned him without malice or special treatment. I wish they did give him special treatment maybe a warning or even a temporary ban, but unfortunately, it didn't go that way. At the end of the day, Dave made his decision himself nobody bullied him into it. I don't know if you truly believe in the bullshit you're saying or if you are just trying to get cheap views and subscriptions for your Patreon. If it is the former answer my question: Why are you the self-proclaimed "only one" to make a video on TB's role in this situation and not any of his friends? Do you have some information even they don't know? I would love to hear what you have to say, maybe it will enlighten me.

[@lisaloki]

​@@LiniykaThis isn't how we ever treat suicide. If someone is mistreated by another person in a minor way before their suicide, we don't tell them "If you weren't an asshole, he might have survived." Typically we do the opposite and reassure people that it's not their fault, because we can't go around assuming every minor thing we do could potentially kill someone. FYI, I call this a minor thing because at the end of the day, it's just an unwarranted videogame ban. It's definitely not a fair thing to do, but any person in a healthy state of mind is not going to end their life over it. You don't try to put a person's death on someone (or a company) when there's no reasonable expectation for them to know it could cause them to end their life.

[@turboterps]

that's crazy blaming a Gaming company for the death of a SUICIDAL GUY

[@GradietPanda12345]

Buddy had problems far greater than getting banned from a video game

[@AndrewBalkaran-r4q]

If video games are making you sui ci dal then you aint certainly aint prepared for real life

[@ogre5175]

​@@AndrewBalkaran-r4qHe was a veteran you idiot

[@captainclueless8983]

@@AndrewBalkaran-r4q I think it was likely more a case of the straw that broke the camels back. It's highly unlikely that this was all because he got banned. Most likely expelnation is that he was going through something IRL and this was jsut the little nudge that sent him over the edge. Of course as stated in the video this not being the tirgger as opposed to the bomb doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour displayed by torn banner.

[@Vaz44-4]

Maybe that's why this was the last straw. Think before you speak.

[@albanerAlbaner05]

natural selection, imagine doing this because of a video game lmao.