Table of Contents 00:00 Introduction 01:11 Mono Signal Path Review 03:58 Four Cable Method 14:00 Traditional Wet/Dry/Wet 19:30 Modern/Easy Wet/Dry/Wet 24:38 Noise Gate Placement 26:38 Conclusion
@jamesdougherty97793 жыл бұрын
Great information. I use older amps without effects loop. I use an Origen effects slide rig and play lots of slide. Origen recommends that the compressor should be first in the chain and then boost, gain etc. I am not sure where to add the volume pedal for that pedal steel sounds that this great compressor gives me and I’m waiting for my new volume pedal and just want your sage advice! Thanks and I love what you’re doing. I’m also not up on the buffer pedal you mentioned! Wildroot!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@jamesdougherty9779 If you have a buffer, that should be first, also fuzz or impedance sensitive before compressor as well. Volume would go after gain as I suggest here.
@deanaf3 жыл бұрын
I think I'm finally getting it. The way you rattle off knowledge is nuts. Thanks.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@deanaf I'm so glad!
@clydehannah10562 жыл бұрын
These two Shows have helped Allot, I’ve had to watch a couple times but what’s the best volume/level settings from pedal to pedal for the signal?
@martinclayton72606 ай бұрын
How many times am I going to have to watch this to have a clue what he said?
@mironoskroba86375 ай бұрын
Hahahah I got it after 2 weeks :)
@josephstacy86788 ай бұрын
Hey Bro loved the video man. I learned a lot. So I have a request/question. Could you do a video on how rthis would work for a multi effect unit or modeler?
@michaelbruderer9474 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great explanation! If I use a tuner with a built-in high quality buffer such as the TC Electronic Polytune 3 Mini with the built-in Bonafide buffer and then into a passive volume pedal, does a separate input buffer before such a tuner-pedal become obsolete or even damaging?
@seankent18073 жыл бұрын
Mason, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all! Always great content 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
My pleasure!
@karlsalocks3 жыл бұрын
Dude. Great channel. Signal paths can be a serious rabbit hole. You do a very good job explaining.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Glad you think so!
@joshhamester2 жыл бұрын
Dude Mason thanks so much for recommending this video! Solved my problem with my NS2. You made it perfectly clear to figure out is it the amp or the pedal making the noise. In my case it was the pedals so the first method was magic! My amp is a Orange 35rt practice amp so I am interested to try and use the FX loop. Is it worth running any of this into that?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Glad it helped!
@nomadicexplorers3 жыл бұрын
Man, was this video educational! I appreciate you
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@codybreyer71753 жыл бұрын
What an authoritative overview of the complexities of signal path. This was gold!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
I hope you found it helpful...it's one way to do it, in the end this is all matter of taste.
@chrismosquad10563 жыл бұрын
Thank you. You cleared up the difference between “line level” and “amp output level.” Very much appreciated. Thinking of putting an EQ in my effects loop.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
👍👍👍
@daaaMook3 жыл бұрын
Just a fantastic set of videos! Thanks for all you do. I have a question… I am currently going from my guitar into a Radial JDI, which is then sending its THRU signal to my amp in chain (4 cable method) and off to my DAW/mixer to record the raw guitar sound. This way I end up with a raw guitar track (for reamping if needed) and the full effected signal recorded. I briefly saw you had a buffer splitter after guitar, which got me thinking about my setup. Am I preserving tone/sound with how I am doing it? Or do you recommend another approach?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Where do you see the splitter?
@G00s7-i3x2 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc they are talking about when you were showing the key input on the Fortin Zuul. I have a very similar setup to what he is describing and I think he is asking about how a DI fits into this if you can clarify. Guitar is going into the DI which has a through to the amp path as well as the balanced 600 ohm output to mixer/interface for recording the dry signal. On the amp path from the through on the DI I then go to my tuner with bypass and then input buffer, and so on.
@nikoladjikic97582 жыл бұрын
Maan, shout out to you for the knowledge and interpretation and shout out to the crew. You are all doing phenomenal job! Super helpful, entertaining and informative. Even some complicated things are presented in fun, perfectly paced, easy going way. Love that you care and repeat to make sure we don't get lost. Love suggestions no matter what they are about! Cannot think of more professional group of people. Even if there is, im glad im in that time that i can learn this way. Just enjoying!!!
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Much appreciated!
@sauce_aux Жыл бұрын
I need to stop watching your stuff. Last video I saw of yours, I ended up buying a damn digitech reverb. You and your pedals are dangerous 😂
@felipeth13 жыл бұрын
In one of the examples you had a "Hall Of Fame" as the last pedal before the buffer, if that pedal has a "Bonifide Buffer" inside can you take the buffer out?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
If you have a high quality buffer inside your pedal, 1M input Z and 100 ohm output Z, then yes, you don't need another buffer.
@darrellowe42083 жыл бұрын
Mason, you did spread the info on thick, and I love it. Normally I listen to information type videos like this sped up because explanations are taking too long. It was nice listening at a normal pace. I also love your content, clear, concise, as it inspirers questions and answers them too. Thanks!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Glad it was helpful!
@bob-okemp4787Ай бұрын
Thanks for the info Bro...! I was wondering, can you use on a EVH 111 50W 212 6L6 combo.... the MXR EVH 5150 OD Pedal in the effects loop for an boost pedal?
@carlosalves444421 күн бұрын
Great video Mason, but what about an effects processor like a line 6 m13 with the use of external pedals , where would be best place in the signal chain for the processor? Thanks👍
@ronysetiadi99392 ай бұрын
Hi Mason, it was an awesome explanation. But I got a question here, how do you apply the 4 cables method with foot switch midi controller pedal like boss es5 or musicomlab. Thanks man!
@VertexEffectsInc2 ай бұрын
Use a TRS cable and program it into the controller. It's not really a signal path thing.
@SFolkes973 жыл бұрын
Wow! Best 28 minutes spent for "beyond the basics." I have watched Josh, Brian, Dan and Mick for YEARS, learned a lot, so this is NOT a diss. Rather, just saying Mason has done the best job of breaking down - concisely - an enormously dense topic into bite sizes, with clarity, AND enough diagrams. Dan and Mick would take an hour and a half, meander, and I wouldn't be as clear at the end of it. It's their style, love you Dan and Mick, but this is Mason's strong suit. I didn't know about the Parallelizer and it's a game changer for me, as is the modern W/D/W. Much appreciated!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
So glad you found it helpful, there’s one drawback about the MusicomLab that was an explicitly said in the video, it doesn’t have stereo input, but you can use the first return as a second channel if you need to go stereo in and stereo out. Nevertheless the theory is still the same as what shown in the video.
@SFolkes973 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc That's true about no stereo input - I really wish the pedal industry would just standardize to this extent: If your pedal has stereo outs, please make it have stereo inputs too. Can't count the number of times this has caused problems. When you start trying to mix or come up with a pedal order when you have a TC Chorus/Flanger, a Blue Sky, an El Capistan, a Deco, a Flint etc, you run into that one-does, but the next-one-doesn't thing and it gets very frustrating. But the Parallelizer helps and the price is right.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@SFolkes97 in the mixer you don't need stereo input since it's just for the input muting and the pedals are set to 100% wet. For a serial rig it's more problematic - however most of those pedals you mentioned are all stereo in if you use an insert cable.
@SFolkes973 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Got it, thanks. I was unaware some of the small Strymon pedals had internal jumpers to set up TRS stereo inputs. (Read the ENTIRE manual Steve.) The El Capistan is one of them. Unfortunately mine is an early one without the jumpers (pre 2012) and has the audible click footswitches. I didn't even know there were two versions until now. Not a big deal, just inconvenient sometimes.
@volkerlinzer844 Жыл бұрын
Want to run 2 different flavor 2-Channel amps w/ different Boosts in front and e.g. stereo delay in effect loop. Can/do I have to use a “7 cable method”?
@IamMusicNerd2 жыл бұрын
Does a Cab Sim pedal like the Two Notes Cab M+ have a good buffer, or would I need to add another buffer pedal after the Cab M+?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
It's OK...500 ohms I think.
@scottpeters44013 жыл бұрын
I use a few pedals in front of my amp,then my amp is loaded by a Fryette PS-100…..I want to take the line out of the Fryette,put my line amp signal into my AxeFXIII for the stereo wet,while the Fryette supplies amplification for my center channel…..will I be able to have some dry signal in my wet cabs with the AxeFXIII??…..I don’t particularly care for 100 percent wet…I want some dry signal in the wet cabs…Or would I need something like the Parallelizer to do this?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
You can do this all in your AxeFX. You don't need a mixer.
@scottpeters44013 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc so I won’t have any phasing/latency issues putting some dry signal in my wet cabs?…
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@scottpeters4401 no, it works great - you can adjust this in the AxeFX if you're have any difficulty.
@scottpeters44013 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc that is great….I have the AxeFXIII,power amps,etc…just waiting on my two cabs that are being shipped,then I can put it all together……I had always heard you had to have analog dry thru pedals if you weren’t going to run full wet in the stereo cabs…..hence my question about using the AxeFXIII…..happy to hear it will work…
@thelachster3 жыл бұрын
At 3:05 you sat with your mouth that you recommend running lower gain overdrives first and running them into higher gain pedals. But the writing on the diagram says the opposite. And then you say the opposite with your mouth a minute later. Misspoke?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
The signal path diagram shows one pedal to rep the od/distortion pedals - not sure what diagram is in conflict with that
@somedude54143 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc The chart notes "lowest gain = further from guitar" while you say " lowest gain first in the signal path." To my mind "first" means "closer" in this case.
@somedude54143 жыл бұрын
Yeah at 3:03 I think you said it backwards, but at 3:33 you matched the chart.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@somedude5414 I see what you mean. Watch the original mono signal path basics and you'll see what I intended. High Gain closer to the guitar, lower gain closer to the amp.
@jessejive1172 жыл бұрын
In your opinion, if I’m using the JHS muffaletta fuzz pedal, should I run that before my buffer? My buffer is on the bottom of my board and I don’t want to re arrange. :/ my set up!
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Depends on the mode you run it in and if it actually has silicon transistors.
@jessejive1172 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks dude! I appreciate you!
@bwm51503 жыл бұрын
Favourite channel on KZbin! Great stuff, thanks!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
🙏🙏🙏
@HowardFrischer3 жыл бұрын
I love videos like this. Knowledge is power.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching Howard! So glad you dig it!
@ciao5353 жыл бұрын
Great video, thanks! Can I use the new MXR tremolo as my output buffer? The pedal is true bypass by default but it can be switched into buffered bypass. Input impedance 600 k♎ Output impedance < 140 ♎
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
That should be fine as long as it’s the very last thing before the amplifier
@ciao5353 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Yeah, it's my last pedal in front of the amp., all the rest is in the fx loop.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@ciao535 ok, sounds like it'll work
@jeradfox Жыл бұрын
With the Four Cable Method is a buffer recommended in between the cable coming from the FX loop send and the first pedal in the FX loop? Thanks!
@VertexEffectsInc Жыл бұрын
No, not unless it's coming out of the amp on the send.
@jeradfox Жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks! Love the videos and I appreciate the information
@StaticRome3 жыл бұрын
@8:36 is the buffer before amplifier input there because of a 12 to 15 ft instrument cable run...from pedal board to amp head ? Do amplifier FX loops normally have built in buffers? If someone is using the 4 cable method with a loop in the Boss ES-8 switcher pedal board, would they need four buffers in total?...1.) input to pedal board. 2.) ES-8 send to the input of amplifier. 3.) Fx send from amplifier to ES-8 return 4.) ES-8 output to return of amplifier 1.) and 4.) can be from a High Wire Mesa Dual pedal on the pedalboard. But 2.) and 3.) would be single buffers?...where 3.) is back on the amplifier far away from pedalboard? Thanks for the help!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
You can watch more about our buffer strategy on our buffer videos but the input buffer is there to load the pickups and convert the signal to low impedance, however, the effectiveness of the input buffer is nullified once you either 1) turn on a true bypass pedal or 2) run into another buffered pedal. With that in mind, the input buffer at best is loading the guitar pickups as they should be with a 1M input (common of most amps) and maybe buffering the first few pedals at best, then you're dependent upon your pedals on your pedalboard to drive the line the rest of the way back to the amp. This is a problem as pedals range all over the place, from 50K+ down to 100 ohms (but rarely under 1K). For this reason the output buffer dead last in the signal path in front of the amp is critical because most pedals can't drive even 10ft. of low capacitance cable without some loss, degradation, EQ change, or distortion being introduced. Most FX loops are passive, however some are buffered, but most are poor - and color the signal a lot. The Boss Buffers are poor, BJT output buffers JFET input buffers, 1M (if you're lucky depending on the device) on the input, and 1K on the output normally, never lower than that. You'd be better off running your High Wire as a dual buffer in front of the amp, and getting something like a Klienulator as your FX Loop buffer that will turn a passive loop into an active buffered loop. If you FX loop is already buffered, I'd just get a separate buffer for the return like the Mesa Boogie Stowaway or similar.
@MAP4483 жыл бұрын
Can I use my polytune3 as my input buffer?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
If it is the bonafide version
@MAP4483 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc i checked it out & yes it has the bonafide buffer.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@MAP448 your'e good then!
@almightytreegod3 жыл бұрын
Ok, next level: wdw, but split to 2 amps for using 2 different gain sounds simultaneously... so like a total of 4 cabs/power sections, with the goal of sounding like double-tracked guitars live, basically. Not that I have the resources for this, but just want to challenge you. Lol... oh... OR splitting off an octave pedal to a bass amp that might also have a wet channel, or even crazier, feed into the wet signal path for certain parts as desired.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
It’s not really wet dry wet, that’s just some sort of a split mono system or split stereo system. You could just as well follow the previous video that we did with serial mono systems.
@datooch2 жыл бұрын
I just set up my first pedal board. I was wondering if there was a preferred cable type to use from the amp’s fx loop. I’m currently using 7ft D’Addario solder-less cables I made that run from my PX-8 plus to the amp’s fx loop. I have it so the fx loop is integrated with loops 1-6 and loops 7-8 are my before amp effects. The D’Addario cables are bulky and I think I’m going to start replacing them one by one with your pre-made patch cables because I have a feeling that all the patch cables I made won’t work so well when I test my rig out this weekend. I’m already regretting the switcher. I’m just a hobbyist and it really is overkill. As always, thank you for these amazing videos! Very informative and I’m hitting that like button every time.
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
I would ONLY use soldered cables, we have plenty of videos on why this important. For the effects loops I would use the lowest capacitance possible you can find. Something like Mogami 2524 or Gepco X Band would be good candidates. We also sell our recommended cables on our website and at Sweetwater.
@roverer1093 жыл бұрын
Thanks for another great lesson!!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Glad you liked it!
@danmorrison87463 жыл бұрын
For the W/D/W rig, I don't understand 1.) why a +/-9 cent pitch shift on the first stereo loop is so key and 2.) why the delay lives in a separate second parallel loop in series after the first parallel loop. Anyone care to explain it to me like I'm a child?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
They wanted pitch modulation after their chorus, and the chorus happen before the first pair a little mix because most of them never went 100% wet, also many people don’t like how they sound when there is an any dry in the stereo Chorus. Detune was just to add a little bit more movement to that. The reason why delays in a separate mixes that they wanted mix one to affect mix two in series, without having all of the effects in parallel, this is technically called a series/parallel signal path
@glennberthiaumesr29493 жыл бұрын
Really appreciate all you do with sharing all this info. I have really learned a lot and am building or better yet rebuilding, adding a few pedals, and locating pedals based on your recommendations and yes!!!! I'm adding buffers!!! Definitely will be checking out all of your videos and will be around... I've had some ideas about this yet really didn't know to much in the whole scheme of things, but always wanted to learn more about dialing in various tones. Now i'm focusing on tone emulations much more... anyway, thanks again...
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
🙏🙏🙏
@sachwah3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video, Doc! This is the direction I'm headed, and you cleared up some concerns I had. I'll be hitting you up on the Rig Doctor Patreon page for a full on "Vertexorcism" ASAP.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for watching!
@Gblackie132 жыл бұрын
Just a stupid question...Eddie Van halen was using the PCM70,2 SDE3000,Eventide H3000 without any mixer...how could he place them in parallel...? were they in series...?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
The H3000 and the PCM70 were in a Rane SM26 Stereo Line Mixer, then on the stereo output of the mixer, the Roland SDE3000s were fed which you could have the dry signal (weren't 100% wet). If you use the DELAY only output you'd get 100% wet, but if you used the "MIXED" output you'd get dry and wet in the signal.
@frankardos42113 жыл бұрын
Afterthought about buffers. I grabbed one of the EMPRESS buffers not long ago (the stereo version) and I'm blown away at what it can do. Thx again dude.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Our pleasure!
@ProfVonW2 жыл бұрын
For classic WDW, I’m not sure how to route the stereo outs of my Boss DC-2W or Tricerachorus into the Musicom Parallelizer. The Parallelizer only has a mono input. Do I just go straight into return 1 (L&R)? That leaves me with two loops, one for a micropitch and one for reverb, correct? Then take the two Parallelizer stereo outs into the return 1 of a second Parallelizer for two more loops (for two mono delays or a single stereo delay)? Also, why not have the chorus in a parallel loop like the other pitch/time effects?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
I would put output L from your stereo chorus into the input of the Parallelizer, and output R from your stereo chorus into loop 1 input on the Parallelizer (mix set to max). Then put the Reverb and Pitch in loops 2/3.
@vlhahd Жыл бұрын
Would the signal path in an amp with built in effects look like this? Preamp - fxloop - amp reverb - power amp?
@VertexEffectsInc Жыл бұрын
Depends
@KennyHolloway3 жыл бұрын
I just picked up one of your modded Boss volume pedals. I haven't received it yet but am wondering, did you put a buffer in that or will I still need a boost going into the amp? (Placing it before time delay effects)
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
No, but a buffer would improve them
@purple76seaslug3 жыл бұрын
I gotta feeling I’m going to be watching this video over and over again for the next six months. It really changed the way I think about my wet dry wet rig.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Let us know if you have questions!
@purple76seaslug3 жыл бұрын
In fact there is something: on the “modern WDW”, after the tri-tone chorus, the line signal splits in stereo, right? It seems to me that the Parallelizer mixer has a mono input (from product photos). Can’t I just skip the mixer and connect in stereo the time based effects? My rig is Tri-Avatar>Blue Sky>TC Nova delay. Thanks!!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@purple76seaslug they are release a stereo version shortly, so this is perhaps preemptive, but you can also sacrifice loop 1 in the current version and use return 1 as another input. The technique is correct however despite the limitations of this particular device.
@cristianrobertodelano64942 жыл бұрын
That’s exactly what I’ve done all day today. My wife is becoming an expert! Lmao!
@jbar260d23 жыл бұрын
Familiar with the new Wampler Gearbox? it has an effects loop option... what pedals should go in that loop? i think its been said that Andy Wood has his compressor in the loop of the Gearbox..?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
You could pretty much follow the same ideology that spoken about here, presuming how you’re setting the gain of the two devices inside of the effects pedal.
@danmorrison87463 жыл бұрын
Also excellent video. This was incredibly informative. I'm several guitars and amps away from pivoting to a stereo rig but it's very tempting.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
🎸🎛🔊 go for it!!!
@patrickcarroll17543 жыл бұрын
Mason, would the Old Blood Noise Signal Blender serve a different purpose than the Parallelizer? Does that only serve for blending in the FX loop?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
It would be similar but it won’t allow for stereo
@marzbitenhaussen3 жыл бұрын
I am using a small tube preamp that has no FX loops, however I have a Mission Control pedal in my chain, can you give me some tips on how to achieve the explanation on my set up, cheers, I am in Oakland as well!!!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
You can head over to the consulting page on www.therigdr.com, there are options for one to one consults there
@tompritchett15492 жыл бұрын
What about running 4CM on a channel switching amp that has a built in gain boost on the OD channel as well as an outboard tube saturation (Koch Amps The Greg)? And where should I put a noise gate that has its own fx loop?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Depends what it is, I go through both scenarios in this video...please re-watch the part on noise gates.
@franklucas93133 жыл бұрын
fantastic video so clear! I suggest turning down the popping noise that keeps repeating for every bullet point, it's pretty loud in my opinion and it's harder to listen to the speaker sometimes :)
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for that feedback glad you enjoyed the video
@jerryvahnknight2183 жыл бұрын
If you are running the impedance sensitive pedals into a loop switcher, you can just run the guitar straight into the buffer, yeah?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Ideally you’d want to use the buffer inside of the switcher and then put it in bypass when you have the impede insensitive devices engaged or switched on through the programming. This way the input buffer can be turned off when a fuzz is on.
@JoePerry-r4j11 ай бұрын
Just wondering why an additional buffer needs to added if your tuner has a built in buffer? Does it depend on yhe number of pedals?
@Dr.Jekyll10 ай бұрын
The second time he mentions this, he says that the input buffer is a high quality buffer. So I’m assuming this implies that the tuner’s buffer is lower quality. I’m not sure this is the correct answer; I am wondering the same. But what I mentioned is probably the answer.
@weepingplume3 жыл бұрын
Hi Rig Doctor, to me you are not mentioning THE issue with 4CM. Ground loops... Get 2 cases I spent many time on it and IMO worth sharing with other musicians. First was my strymon mobius. I'm using it in pre/post mode. but the pedal is grounded to same ground. And it was creating a terrible buzz due to ground loop. I've unsoldered and isolated with tape the ground of my patch cable plug into right out and it solved the issue. But this is common tricky issue when using a stereo pedal in pre/post mode. There are maybe better solution I don't know. Second was having a patch bay within my pedalboard, using SP400 (and my strymon mobius as well...). Good but with the given angle to the plugs, the metal plug of the SP400 were touching one another... creating a common ground creating a big ground loop... Put some tape on each one solved my issue. But for next PB I'll use for the patch SP4S All in all ground has to be considered when mounting a PB in 4CM. And if there is any ground link between front of the amp ground and FX loop ground, this may cause sever buzzing.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
The pre/post thing is more of the issue. There can be work arounds to float the pre/post if that's the intent on the manufacturer going in, but not something that's inherent in 4CM (in terms of ground loops). Sometimes you can also mitigate the loop area based on location of the Mobius (or fill in the black 4CM pre/post device) or based on how the cables are dressed. I did this for Paul Jackson Jr.'s rig with a GT1000 with no isolation transformers and no ground loop, but all pre/post 4CM. I'm not sure I understand your solution for isolating the Mobius. A better solution if it's it's really the pedal is just have some sort of iso-splitter on the return, even something small with a SP-66 10K-10K ISO transformer will work. For the Interface, you'll 1) want to use isolated jacks (like the Neutrik switched jacks I normally recommend for our interface DIY tutorials - and just ground the main guitar input and float the others). Secondly, you can heat shrink around the SP400's or any pancake or R/A plug, you can do every one, but every-other is fine too, so you'll still get separation. Or you could go with SPS4's. I hear you on ground loops, but to me a lot of them are self induced and not necessarily the pedals, especially in a mono system, 4CM or not. This video is really about signal path - not ground loops. We will do something along these lines in the future about ground loops and galvanic isolation, and I appreciate you reminding me of this so we can put this on our list for future video discussions!
@weepingplume3 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the comment. Regarding my solution, I just unsoldered the ground of my patch cable on the post ouput of the mobius and put some heat shrink around the ground wire. That's what you call float? I will have a look at the iso-splitter. Regarding the interface I built such one on my previous pedalboard and it worked great but here I'm switching to a Rockboard pedalboard and I'm using their mod1 interface. It would be absolutely great if you can do a specific topic on ground loops. Thanks to your high quality videos, I now have a great quality board, but had to fight with ground for hours to grant full success ;)
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@weepingplume typically floating would just mean cutting it away. We have several DIY interface videos, diagrams, and drill templates, all free, that you can loop up on our channel if you want to upgrade from the Rockboard. We will definitely get into ground loops soon!
@cablescribbles2 жыл бұрын
If your using the compressor on a bass on a simple one line system, would you put it in the dynamics area? I saw the dyna comp up there and was wondering about its position here versus the more complicated position in the wet?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Depends if you want to use it as a limited or as a compressor. Many bass players will use it later in the chain for a more "studio" sound after their distortion and drive style effects.
@sergiopaulo46602 жыл бұрын
FYI, @3:05 in this video Mason verbally contradicts the prequel video. I'm pretty sure the image is correct and the words were misspoken. Meaning, the signal should pass thru hi gain dist before low gain OD type pedals.
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Yes, you're correct. I said it backwards.
@sergiopaulo46602 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks again for the savage content! This is my fav pedal show. Clear, concise, and massively informative. You Rock :)
@savoirfaire8979 Жыл бұрын
Great overview. But even the “simple” example is not very simple.
@VertexEffectsInc Жыл бұрын
There’s also a more basic version of the signal path a video that you might want to check out if you’re finding this to be too complicated
@joshfowler83603 жыл бұрын
i have a pedal at the front of my chain a kingsley page thats on 98 % of the time would i still need a buffer at the front?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Depends with the input impedance is
@Bairov2 жыл бұрын
So in a 4 cable method univibe after od/dist, but in a wet dry wet it goes before od/dist? Why the difference?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Depends on your tastes...I prefer it earlier in the chain before ODs, but some prefer it later.
@adajay92573 жыл бұрын
Hi Mason, I have the PolyTune 3 pedal which has the Bonafide buffer built-in. I am a little confused looking at your diagram. On your diagram you have a polytune after what looks like a dedicated buffer. First of all, do I need a dedicated buffer? Also, polytune pedals, whether version 2 or 3, are true bypass. You keep saying in the video that a true bypass tuner goes first (I am assuming in front of the buffer), and a buffered tuner goes after a buffer. Can you please clarify this? Thank you for the great tips.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
No all versions of the Polytune have a buffer option so we have to generalize it. The Polytune has a decent buffer in it (however most guitar tuners do not have good buffers). You could double up the tuner and the input buffer as your first buffer right after the guitar or any impedance sensitive devices if you have a vintage style fuzz for example. You'll still need an output buffer at the end of the chain.
@quiksilver782 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc I have the Polytune 3 also. Just so that I am clear, the Polytune 3 is OK - no need to put an additional buffer in front of that pedal - I can simply connect the guitar to tuner directly and maybe use a bonafide at the end of the chain (into the amp) is that accurate? Additionally, I have an EHX Ram's Head Reissue. From your 'general' recommendatiion I should put it BEFORE the Polytune 3? Now, for pedals like the UAFX Dream '65 and Ruby (no FX loop) should I place wet effects after those pedals? or in front? I mean neither of those amps originally had FX loops anyway. For the record: my wet effects are simply Chorus, Delay, and Reverb all by TC Electronic and as a matter of fact all have buffered bypass - does that mean anything?
@mug1222 Жыл бұрын
I just play the guitar... This is way harder to understand than that.
@CaptainRudy4021 Жыл бұрын
That's why most touring guitarists have techs that handle everything
@jmd76family3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for explaining 4 cable method!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Yes, of course!
@rondesrosiers21962 жыл бұрын
Thanks again for this video. I have a question for your opinion on a set up for a newbie to set up a board knowing that I am trying to replicate Def Leppard tones and Van Halen, Boston if there are devices to drop in your sound path for a 4 plug set up? I have no idea one brand from another and if you have a preference that you could suggest for what you would build to replicate that sound I would greatly appreciate it. New to Guitar and totally lost with pedals and have not started set up yet, but I totally appreciate your videos and any and all suggestion you have. You are awesome at explaining this and I am so glad I found this on u tube. Have a great day
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
A lot of this will be your amplifier. You can supplement with things like phaser, chorus, delay, reverb, to complete the sound. What's your amp?
@rondesrosiers21962 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc I have a Marshall I think DP 40 , Boss Katana MkII 50 and a spider V 100. I don't use Marshall much because i cant seem to figure out how to get the right sound out of it, but everyone says that the Marshall is the better of all, but i cant figure it out.
@orryfishburne53263 жыл бұрын
Buffer before or after volume pedal if your volume is first in the chain?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Nothing changes about the buffering, you can move the volume pedal to either location but the buffer still needs to be first
@patrickcarroll17543 жыл бұрын
Mason you don't realize how excited I am for this
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
🙏🙏🙏
@uriel-heavensguardian8949 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this. I’m new to the guitar playing scene. Haven’t even gotten my guitar yet🤣😂😆 I don’t want a speaker cab yet. I want to preamp the signal with the option of using effects pedals or not and out put straight to my interface. Is that an option with this. And what would you or anyone in the comments recommend.
@frankardos42113 жыл бұрын
What's up Mason! Bless you brother and good day to you.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Same to you!
@liamMaru3 жыл бұрын
Having built a true wet/dry/wet rig as my COVID project, I can say with 100% certainty that you should only build one if you want the experience of having built one. If you want to play one, buy an AxeFX :). When you factor all parts in, I can say for sure that an AxeFx provides far more for less $. I will say this - going the old school route is a very educational experience and helps you appreciate what modelling gives us.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
In my rack, I do all my wet processing in the AXEFX and all my dry with analog pedals into a tube amp. It’s simple and the Axe can handle all my pitch, reverb, and delay with the mixer inside it and do the cab sim for the wet processing.
@liamMaru3 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc this is what I'm moving towards before the end of the year :). PS - thanks for all of your videos, they were what started me down the W/D/W journey all those months ago!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@liamMaru I'm so glad! I think you'll really love it!
@skylarmobis46812 жыл бұрын
where should iplac my looper and noise gate without using a fx loop
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Dead last before the output buffer.
@rodrigogutierrezguerra41473 ай бұрын
incredible video, they are a school for many guitarists, a question...where should I put my looper (Ditox4) in this chain? greetings from Chile
@jrcrooke4583 Жыл бұрын
@VertexEffectsInc If you would be kind enough to take the time, I need an assessment of my setup, and any opinions or suggestions on what I'm doing wrong/right or could do differently. I'm using what I'd consider a hybrid setup where I'm running a few analog fx with a Pod Go. Current signal chain is: Guitar> JHS Killswitch> Livewire passive a/b/y box([a] channel for d.i. and [b] continues to rest of pedalboard)> MXR Talkbox (which has full bypass mode when engaged)> Original Morley Bad Horsie II> Ibanez Mini Tube Screamer> MXR Noise Gate> Guitar in of Pod Go and using 4cm from Pod Go into my Orange Micro Dark head. In my Pod Go signal path, I have: Volume pedal> modulations (Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Trems)> FX Loop> Amp Simulation> Reverb> Delay> EQ? (Sometimes?*). I'm using a Diezel Amp Simulation in the Pod Go and have my Micro Dark head set up for gorgeous clean tones with the gain at just around 8 o'clock, tone at 3 o'clock and volume at 3 o'clock. Assuming you're familiar with the Pod Go and its features, how would you go about signal routing with this kind of setup? Amp Simulation before or after FX loop in the PG chain, analog pedals in the PG fx loop, etc? Your time and response are greatly appreciated!!
@riothood Жыл бұрын
This might be a really stupid question, but the (WET)FOH can also be CABS rights? What about FRFR speakers? And why would you say the effect loop's usefulness is nullified when its the pedals generating the distortion, isn't that what most people use which is pedals generating distortions?
@paulris9868 Жыл бұрын
So where do I put my Boss TU-3 tuner?
@VertexEffectsInc Жыл бұрын
Already answered in a few of your other questions of the same nature
@allenbetts15506 ай бұрын
What if I tried to make a w/d/w rig by splitting the signal with a mimiq doubler? Basically I’d send one output from the doubler to my “dry” amp and the second output too my “wet” effects. I would then then split the signal a second time from the collider to the effects loop of my other two amps. Think this would work?
@thumperhunts62502 жыл бұрын
Wait so you would recommend a dedicated buffer as opposed to a tuning pedal that is bufferred?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Absolutely, most pedals don't have quality specs for input and output impedance.
@thumperhunts62502 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc even the peterson stobeastomp? For bass
@skylarmobis46812 жыл бұрын
Hello sir mason...i just want to ask what if i have a walrus acs1,,where should i place it on my signal chain??please help me sir
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Before your wet effects.
@skylarmobis46812 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc sir mason what if i have only a simple signal chain just pedals going to the guitar amp...where should i place the walrus acs1??im sorry im just learning things sir
@GW2_Live5 ай бұрын
After watching many of your videos I have a few questions, with impedance sensitive pedals, what do you do with an active bass? They are supposed to be before the input buffer the but the active bass has the input buffer inside of it? if I were using pedals that are buffer bypass (mostly boss pedals) considering the pedal order the worse buffer should go after the good quality input buffer correct? Thanks for these videos they really are helpful, they make a world of difference in building my rig so far
@rutsneischmitz6 ай бұрын
Just got myself a GFI Enieqma based on your other videos. Would love to know how to place it in the Wet Dry Wet signal chain, as you have mentioned it can be used in front end and back end of signal path.
@mirrorandaqoute Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the videos @VertexEffects, very helpful! I'd really appreciate your feedback on my rig plans... I mostly record in my home studio. I use a DI box so I can run my amp live while still being able to record a DI signal into my DAW. I then run line level from my direct out on my amp into my DAW and record both channels at the same time. I'm running a high gain distortion pedal and a tube screamer into my clean channel on my Revv G20. (btw I tried switching positions between the two mid to high gain pedals and you are absolutely right about the lower gain pedal going after the high gain pedal). Anyway... I want flexibility; the option to switch between the high gain pedal and my amps built-in distortion. Therefore, I'm applying the 4-cable method and using my FX Loop as you recommended. I want to introduce a gate and looper into my signal chain. The looper for live shows where I might have a third guitar part. Unfortunately you didn't cover these pedals in your video, so I scoured the comments here for answers. Between some of your replies and my own logic, this is what I was able to come up with... instrument output>DI box input>DI box instrument level output>tuner input>tuner output>buffer input>buffer send>dynamics input>dynamics output>gate input>gate send>distortion input>distortion output>buffer return>buffer output>amp input>amp send>buffer input>buffer send>gate return>gate output>modulation input>modulation output>time-based input>time-based output>buffer return>buffer output>looper input>looper output>amp return I think I got it, or I believe I'm pretty close. I'm questionable about the tuner (Peterson strobe) placement, modulation effects being in the FX Loop, the routing of the buffers and placement of the looper. I'm not sure if the DI box is acting as a buffer already. Also, I would assume a gate falls under the dynamic category since it behaves a lot like a compressor but it still makes sense (to me) to keep my other dynamic pedals before and out of the gates FX Loop. Appreciate your time and love the videos, Ryan
@charlesb7831 Жыл бұрын
I know it's more a one off kinda thing, however what about when running several amps on something like a Radial JD7 Injector? Apparently I've been told more people use them then I'm aware of lol. It just seems a whole different ballpark when running multiple amps with 1 pedalboard through a system like this?
@mbrown5494 Жыл бұрын
I believe you described the distortion order backwards from what you described in the 1st video, and what is in the diagram.... no biggie, just nit-picking 3:07
@flattedsixth45473 жыл бұрын
Can I put something like a Ditto X2, which is true bypass, *after* my output buffer (a Strymon Big Sky) without compromising tone?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Should be OK, if it’s on its 100 ohm output z as I recall
@flattedsixth45473 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc Great, thanks
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@flattedsixth4547 no problemo!
@mariohuertaguitarrista3 жыл бұрын
Hi doc, ge7 for solo boost, after or before delay? No loop amp, any suggestion? Cheers.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
GE7 won't work in most loops without clipping. I'd put it after ODs
@PostColorGear2 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc ah, I'm glad I read this. I have a combo amp and was considering putting a GE7 in the loop but I'll just move it before the pre amp. (Into the "front of the amp") Amp will have the distortion. I understand this means it will drive it more and won't be just a volume boost, but that's ok. Kudos on you sharing your knowledge and helping everyone in these comments!
@akosideepee2 ай бұрын
How about the new hotone volume pedal with a tuner? Where do you recommend to have it in the chain? It also does a buffer (not very sure of its buffer’s specs tho 😅)
@deanaf3 жыл бұрын
NOT important. I have an aby switch in front of me. I was wondering. What if you connect your board into the aby then split it into the front and effects loop of the same amp and engage both the front and effects loop at the same time?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
sounds like a ground loop
@deanaf3 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks.
@riccardofederigi9191 Жыл бұрын
I’ve learned a lot. So, now the next step 😊 where you’d put a loopstation pedal in the WDW chain? I’m guessing that a Looper at the end it’ll never replay the distorted sounds… on the other side a Looper before the effect loop return from the amp will loose the right wet sound… Any hints?
@chankoBro Жыл бұрын
Great video! Just wondering if you’d have some advice on where and how to set up vocal pedals, like the TC Helicon harmony singer 2 etc. where in the chain would that be? Should vocal pedals be placed in a chain or not at all?
@GregSB13 жыл бұрын
Using a stereo cab sim setup for the L/R Wet was a great point. I honestly had not considered that. Brilliant!
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
I don’t know if that was their original intent, but it works great for this purpose, you could also easily use something like a cab M from two notes as well
@Widdy51503 жыл бұрын
I replicate think with the helix.....out 1/4" to real amp(dry) & cab, xlr L/R out to PA with the wet effects added. 👍🏻
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@Widdy5150 That could also work.
@peace2u2 Жыл бұрын
I am new to all this so ,Out from a mono pedal I plug into the input R of the stereo pedal ,I hear only one of the two amps .if I remove the cable from the stereo pedal and plug it into the other input ( Mono) I hear only the other amp. Trying to get volume from both. running two cables from the stereo pedal L /R , do I get some kind of split cable to go from Mono pedal into both stereo pedals inputs??
@taylormonaghan6994 ай бұрын
One of the most helpful videos on FX loops and options for where pedals can go. Really needed this
@JAF29913 жыл бұрын
Let's go!😁
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching!
@dude_crush_2 жыл бұрын
I have a TC Electronic Sentry Noise Gate. Where should I place this pedal in the signal chain using the 4 Cable Method? FRONT OF AMP 1. Guitar 2. Dunlop Classic Wah 3. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer 4. TC Electronic Polytune 3 5. Digi Tech Whammy V 6. TC Electronic Hyper Gravity Compressor 7. TC Electronic Spark Booster (Channel 1) 8. TC Electronic Spark Booster (Channel 2) 9. Line 6 DM4 (not used with Boost) 10. Line 6 MM4 11. TC Electronic Viscous Vibe 12. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer 13. Amp input 5150 III EL34 50 Watt Combo FX LOOP 1. Send 2. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer 3. Lehle Volume Pedal 4. BOSS GE-7 Equalizer 5. TC Electronic Dreamscape Flanger 6. TC Electronic Arena Reverb 7. TC Electronic Flashback 2 Delay 8. TC Electronic Alter Ego V2 Vintage Echo 9. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer 10. Return
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
The video explains this exactly in the noise gate section. Re-watch and let us know if you have questions for clarification. Also if your Polytune 3 has a buffer you can loose the Bonafide buffer before it. Also you don't need a Buffer after the FX Send.
@jessedaly78473 жыл бұрын
As far as I can tell you can’t run a stereo signal into the musicom labs parallelizer. I suppose you could drop the entire parallelizer into something like a wetter box along with a stereo chorus.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
The best way to do it is to utilize the main input in one of the returns on loop 1 - you’ll have fewer loops, but it’ll work - they’re also revising it so it has stereo in and out any day now.
@jessedaly78473 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc that’s fabulous news! I may just be tempted to get one or two if they go full stereo signal path.
@jessedaly78473 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc I must say I found it surprising that the ‘classic’ wdw signal path has the delay at the end like that. I’m looking forward to experiencing that and experimenting with different ideas there as well. Given that your preference is for classic phaser and vibe effects to be in front of dirt, I’m still considering getting a second amp to run my stereo phaser and flanger in front of…
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@jessedaly7847 You can try it now with a serial set up. The reason is that they want reverb printed to every delay trail. If reverb is last, the delay will continue repeating without reverb on the trails as Reverb will die off before the delay does.
@frankwonderly6569 Жыл бұрын
What are Input and Output Buffers? Any recommendations on some good models i can buy?
@efrainmeza98722 жыл бұрын
I have a question, 5CM(Stereo 4cm) is like a wet/dry/wet with two amps, guitar and pedals go to amp input and the send of that amp goes mono to delay and reverb in stereo and those split in stereo to the return of amp 1 and the return of amp 2, so is using the original dry guitar sound in amp 1 but delays and reverb in stereo panned to amp 1 and 2(100% wet sound), my question is, is the sound similar with a 5CM rig with two amps to a Wet/Dry/Wet rig with three amps? Or is 5cm a reduced version of wet dry wet?
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
5CM and Wet/Dry/Wet are very similar sounding, yet. The only think you can't do is isolate the dry signal with its own channel in the mix separately from the stereo wet signals. If that's not critical, you're getting very close to what the intent of a wet/dry/wet rig was intended to be.
@georgekoniaris5071 Жыл бұрын
Hey Mason, where would a Digitech Drop pedal go in a rig using 4 cable method?
@danielmiller2886 Жыл бұрын
I have learned a lot. Particularly that until i have a lot more money to invest, I'm gonna have to keep it simple!
@danielmiller2886 Жыл бұрын
I have learned a lot. Particularly that until i have a lot more money to invest, I'm gonna have to keep it simple!
@danielmiller2886 Жыл бұрын
I have learned a lot. Particularly that until i have a lot more money to invest, I'm gonna have to keep it simple!
@luispereztasso3 жыл бұрын
I wonder how you would recommend to create a "fx loop" with just an interface, I read a DI box is necessary?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
Explain what you mean, I’m not sure what you’re asking
@luispereztasso3 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc If I use my interface with a AMP plugin only, how do I "emulate" an fx loop? because if not I'm just putting all my pedals in front of that virtual amp :(
@luispereztasso3 жыл бұрын
@C J Yeah, I know that. The thing is... I don't have an amp, I just use plugins for that, so that's why I dunno how to send the preamp tone to my pedals from the interface (?) and then back to the interface to the power section, all with a plugin.
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
You could use an insert out of your interface
@alexcross98513 жыл бұрын
Just a question, is the parallelizer input stereo? I assume yes from your video, so it means it has a try input ... correct?
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
No, but they have one coming that’s is or you can leave return loop 1 on all the time and second input. This was more of a theoretical mixer - I think the Xotic C Blender is currently the only stereo in and out mixer out there.
@alexcross98513 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc many thanks, hope to get soon a parallelizer with stereo input
@VertexEffectsInc3 жыл бұрын
@@alexcross9851 or you can sacrifice the return from loop 1
@alexcross98513 жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc yes, The only issue is that I should send only the wet signal so I could use the mobius but not the boss Dimension.
@erikhartley2494 Жыл бұрын
What’s the simplest way to take one amp with an fx loop (4 cable method) and run the delay/verb in stereo? Cab Zeus? Is the separate mixer necessary?
@VertexEffectsInc Жыл бұрын
You don't want to use your loop at all, you use a line out box and feed your wet pedals into the cab zeus while at the same time running your dry amp as it's own channel with it's own cab.
@erikhartley2494 Жыл бұрын
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks! The obvious caveat being a decent PA System and a sound person to man three channels for your guitar?
@Dr.Jekyll10 ай бұрын
You can get a mono preamp and stereo power amp. You can also get the Synergy SN-2 (has a stereo FX return) into a stereo power amp.
@Alexanderzzzzon2 жыл бұрын
Great video! Just what I was looking for! I had my pedalboard all down, but was wondering what the right order would be for a 4cable noise gate (SMGs C**k Blocker) turns out I was doing it right! Side note - You kinda look like a fatter Zlatan Ibrahimovic ;D (No offense - he's a very tall and "skinny" dude)
@VertexEffectsInc2 жыл бұрын
Seems I look like everyone...Jack Black, Geraldo Rivera, Ricki Lake, George Stephanopoulos, and now Zlatan Ibrahimovic - I don't know what to believe