Advanced vs Traditional Framing: The Ultimate Showdown:

[@matthewghardy]

I grew up in a balloon framed house built in 1926. Always wanted to build my own the same way. House is still standing strong. Built right.

[@ChadVanryn]

I sent this old house that was completely crooked. I wonder if it was a balloon frame. It was falling down and none of the windows or the door where plumb or level

[@DarthRelkew]

This is really to see two experts talk about what they know, great video!

[@DigitalAlmond]

Great video! It’s super clear to me you have spent a lot of time listening, learning, and understanding what actually goes on in design. It’s very nice to see! I’m a structural engineer with a specialty in wood construction, I’ll be honest one of the big reasons I don’t spec anything beyond 16” OC is because of framers. I’ll be honest it’s so hard to know what quality of framer you’re getting when you’re doing a design. We’ve had a many issues with framers ignoring our instruction and believing their experience is better than our design (I’m not trying to say that I’m smarter or better than an experienced framer). We gotta meet people where they’re at and with what they expect to see so they take the goofy engineered stuff seriously. It would be cool to be able to actually engineer efficiently. It’s the same reason why I don’t move the header up into the joist space. I have seen far too many hangers be installed wrong to do something like a header in any other way than the traditional approach. The curse of living in bid land. I love talking to framers and getting a feel for what they like to do, then working around that. But it doesn’t happen often

[@hyattbusbey3563]

I was a volunteer fireman for a while and we talked about balloon framing a lot! Older homes in my area(early 1900s) used balloon framing with no fire blocks so we had to be trained and prepared for one of them to catch fire. One year we were donated a delapidated 1920s two floor house to burn for training. We would set a fire in a room with hay bales and diesel and then a crew would go in and put it out. After a burn in the downstairs we noticed thick smoke coming from the eves. Sure enough, the downstairs fire had crawled up the balloon into the attic. We evacuated the structure and let it burn.

[@kylehamburg244]

Thank you for the going in great detail on framing concepts and the reason why you do what you do!

[@emilechap8573]

Thanks Tim . Great video. Good info.👍

[@KrAsHtheKaRpEnTeR]

AWESOME EPISODE!!!! very informative!!

[@johnhintermaier7651]

In the city of Albany, New York circa 1964 and beyond 2 X 4 fire stops were code even with Western framing techniques: all 2X4 bottom plates, 92-5/8" construction grade studs (Douglas fir/Hemlock), double top plated interlocked at corners and partitions. Fire Stop blocking at 48" centerline above decking, and additional fire stop blocking at 96" centerline for walls above typical pre-cut stud walls.I did fire reclaim work on balloon framed houses where fire blocking was missing prior to the fire. Sadly many walls were plaster over wood lath which added a further fuel source. With the advent of 1/2" drywall the ceiling joists were "furred" with 1 X 3 SPF to equalize the crowns, so as a 2 X 4 was nominal 1-5/8 x 3-5/8, two 4 X 8-foot sheets installed stacked horizontally left approximately 1/4" gap at the subfloor. Love your channel seeing the wisdom of modern materials like LDL, Zip System, but especially the great friendships that are enjoyed by framers. Every crew I worked with--usually three-man--developed an unbreakable bond!

[@janderson8401]

My parents bought their first house in 1954. They spent a considerable amount adding fire blocking to the balloon framed walls and fixing the place up. In 63 the city seised it by eminent domain to build a school and the fire department burned it for practice.

[@jonathandorr2234]

This is like an intelligent conversation, including historical revisions, that I’ve waited for, since 1977. North central Massachusetts, a custom recording studio, where a separate framed, interior structure an inch away from the exterior building. My contractors, were noticeably, freaked out at inspection, by county techs. I was 25, and studied every detail, then watched 4?yrs later, an alteration of framing, and wall compromises, by a free-man , with no permits!.!.! Fueled w/coke, and crazy add ons. Ultimately it became a home for a visual artist.

[@igorignatov2602]

Awesome video! We need to adopt this more and more here in Canada. I own an old balloon framed house from 1942 and mine has foundation issues (parts have cracked and sunk independently so everything has gone off level, but it is mostly plumb). I definitely have my hands full with that one but otherwise I’m all for balloon framing especially with the 24” spacing to accommodate more insulation. Hilariously I was able to guess the window related myth immediately 😅. I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say about it.

[@사람사는집]

this is deep. thank you for the practical video about Advanced Framing.

[@WayneSmith-yf3fg]

When I first started framing in Nebraska, we were doing 2x6 on 24" in 1977 with 5/8" rock.

[@AaronHope_Sow]

You guys totally nailed advanced framing. I get what you mean by rational framing but advanced is pretty much universal at this point.

[@joshl2727]

Great video! Learning everyday

[@keithwiddows2391]

Watching from the uk 👍

[@Davey768]

600 centers is the norm in the UK also, isn't it?

[@keithwiddows2391]

@@Davey768 we do both 400 and 600 centers. Mostly 400mm which is equivalent of 16 inch in old money. But 600 is becoming more popular especially as things are becoming more engineered. Unfortunately we don’t have easy access to your lvl’s and engineered lumber

[@dustinmarquand5301]

Good summary gentlemen.

[@cxsey8587]

Thank god, I was running out of bathroom time KZbin videos 🔥

[@aaronblakeley9442]

Brilliantly said!

[@andrewjblack6]

Such an informative video, it's super helpful when you can share the building literature you use/have knowledge of so we can reference it or look into it further our own understanding. There was mention of how platform framing creates a hinge point in the wall, what are the best ways to mitigate that? Using perpendicular walls as bracing elements on the interior? if you lap sheathing from the upper wall, over the floor system, to the lower wall, how much would that mitigate the hinge point? How much weaker would a platform-framed wall be than a ballon-framed wall percentage wise? Thanks again for all the great information!

[@mf9264]

The pic at 5:48 and and video at 8:02 show jack studs under the header at the top of the window for OVE but the diagram at 7:21 doesn't have these. Is it that the jack studs aren't needed when roofs rafters, 2nd floor joists and 2nd floor studs align with the king studs on the side of the window but they are when the rof rafters, 2nd floor joists and 2nd floor studs don't align with the kings? Thinking that probably the case. BTW .. That suggests that the header isn't supporting a gravity load and that then begs the question as to why the header is even needed.

[@bwillan]

Great video. The 2 of you are certainly a wealth of building information. How much time was spent polishing your hammer? LOL 🤣The glare was blinding.

[@AwesomeFramers]

Story on that hammer....its a polished Titanium Martinez M1. I bought 1 of the first 100 made and was just going to keep it, but then I gave away my other M1 and just used this. I told Mark Martinez, I just can't not use the hammer 🙂

[@herbrotter]

If I must build any 2-story home again for others or myself, I will defiantly use the modern balloon framing method. With ever changing weather conditions with the wind forces, as you said in the video, the hinge effect of platform or western framing depending on what you call it in your region, could lead to disaster. In my area in the Northeast, we are having more occurrence of tornados, micro-bursts, and stronger high winds. The statement of the pros and cons is absolute correct. I look at the pros this way. Whether you use an LVL/LSL wood or a properly gauged Cold formed Steel (metal stud 16 ga or better), the major advantage is complete tension from top to bottom. Coupled with the shear sheathing and tie-downs that are engineered to the wind speed needed. Not to mention the increased stabilization in the building diaphragm when the joists are connected by metal hangers to the header. (As for puncture or impact resistance from the exterior side, that is itself in another topic of discussion.) Whereas, with platform framing, there is another expense in additional hardware to match the performance of the balloon frame tension advantage in one uniformed stud. One easy con you can say about modern balloon framing, depending on the costs of the material and other labor factors, it could be more than platform framing. The offset to possible costs could come from a lower home insurance premium from your carrier due to the fact of an excellent structural skeleton. Not to mention the peace of mind you will have when you less or no damage compared to rebuilding your life. Regarding Building Science, there are many techniques you can use. From KZbin University, you have a slew of videos to watch and possibly determine the best method for you. This will help determine how you want to insulate and choice an HVAC system. In addition, it will also help you determine whether how you want the building to dry (perm or no perm). And yes, there are methods to use metal studs and not have the conductive issue as mentioned in this video. My choice for the Building Science, depending on the insulation package I choose, it will dry to the exterior side. Where I will put plywood on the inside wall and build a service cavity wall as they do in these passive houses. My version of a double wall system. The HVAC system will designed for drying from interior. Just my 2 cents.

[@BigTee-lp7qu]

2 cts, you spit out $10 in worthless Canadian coins 😂

[@PazLeBon]

@@BigTee-lp7qu under trrump noone will want american dollar. watch everyone go brics :)

[@gregoryguitars6291]

My all time favorite Far side

[@TEXAS.N8V]

Haha Texas here, I’ve seen those cavity corners and might’ve done a few…. but regularly we’ve mostly done 3 blocks sandwiched by two studs.

[@jybuis3939]

@18:26 neighbor says "oh man, that's a lotta shadow!"

[@davedonedis]

I find a lot of houses are not designed for the clear span trusses on them. If your truss designer has designed the house for 2x4 spf walls they will need bearing blocks to help distribute the top plate crushing forces.

[@plumbthumbs9584]

Awesome Framers are awesome.

[@Davey768]

Our dimensional lumber is a bit bigger here in Norway (2-by-4 is 48x98mm vs 38x88), but yeah, have never framed anything other than 24" on center and don't see why we would.

[@kevinortega6788]

Love what you do, Timmy! Instead of leaving that extra 20+ foot long trimmer stud in the wall (which is only necessary for stiffness during the 2 minutes that you raise the wall), could you not screw it to the other trimmer every 3 feet and then back it out once the wall is lifted? Better yet, could you not temporarial screw two horizontal members across the interior of the wall at say 8 feet and 16 feet, and then take those off once the wall is up? Temporary bracing during the lift reduces material costs and increases insulation. An idea humbly submitted by a non-pro.

[@AwesomeFramers]

Yeah, there are probably a lot of things we could do like that. I never thought of that before. We could take a couple of the 2nd floor joists and screw them to the wall, that would brace it and keep it super flat, then frame interiors, brace those, pull the I Joist off and use them in the floor. Great idea!

[@kevinortega6788]

@@AwesomeFramers kind of honored you replied... I'm a bit of a "fanboy!" :)

[@randyrussell6246]

I had a 44' x 72' x 16' structure--- 2x6 yellow pine studs 16 " centers and horizontal blocking 24 " centers for 1" board and bat nailer ( very heavy wall construction ) on a slab two years ago in the Smokies . The winds were too high to sheath the walls and even with a dbl top plate screwed with the best srews .......so I ran a horizontal 2x spliting the plate and studes and screwed both plate and studs that we removed by lift and ladder after stood up....sections of course . Had several openings 14 ' to 18' with ......wait for it ..........triple 18" and 24" LVL's , and only two man doors. It's funny that I had been shadowing this channel for tips before the build lol ! I have over 15 years commerical and industrial building that I have set 100 x the tonnage BIG STUFF and it did not matter that I had framed hundreds of homes in the 70's and 80's until I was bored because it was almost all platform framing and I graded all the way around for what ever scaffolding required. I know that swinging and lifting is two different animals and a time and place for each and we can all find ourselves to be a duck out of our ponds and we must exercise extreme caution, putting the safety of our men first. I put my bag on as a full time lead Carpenter in 1976 and I don't know how many decades ago that I started praying over my men and each job site for Almighty God to watch over and protect but I can tell you that I have been very blessed to have not seen the loss of life or limbs ( Thank you Lord ! ) with the hundreds of men and maybe millions of man hrs ........Ain't God Great !! I have prayed for Timmy and his guys any time I watch one of his videos because his work has a little more danger than stacking up and wish him to succeed in his endeavors .........as long as his head does not get any bigger because there is not a hard hat big enough to go on it now LOL ! Putting all jokes aside and since I am a elder , I noticed that Tim mentioned that the Finish Carpenter might need more wood around the opening .....sure they do if its a 3" or more wide casing with a back band or large custom window pediments ......or blocking for any of the other trades that are within reason of course, setting everyone up to be successful pro's at their trade puts you a notch above your peers you can take the line and then some as a framing carpenter but as my Daddy used to say " the Trim must fit as tight as if it grew there " ..........come on Tim , I have seen you cutting dimensional lumber with a CHAINSAW .....a Finish Trim Carpenter must split a fine line !Stay safe boy's and watch your fingers and toes and for Gods sake , please wear your hearing and eye protection when it's needed !!

[@edwardcarberry1095]

One I thought of as a kid of ?? 9 yrs , was to turn the one {2x4" } 90*s so it was cross wise for an outside wall as it was only adding one which was needed for that corner for nailing to for the wall. I got shot down for that suggestion . As I had noticed the difficultly nailing jiprock or sheeting's into the corner. As well for the roof outside over hang always seemed to be weak . My question strength was would be, to have a 1/3r 2/3rds over hang or 1/4 , 3/4rs over hang. Just the outside wall would likely need to be upsized ? Oh well time will tell if and when I get to build/ or to have built a house.

[@Shepherd1234]

What if later the owner wants to put in a new window or remove a wall? Will this still be structurally sound or does this framing have the disadvantage of not being able to customize the house later on? Thank you for the video!

[@thebrotherofthunder]

Bonus of Ballon framing: Opportunity for decrease in thermal bridging and better insulation. Con: now I'm the one fitting insulation.

[@JFabric500]

Can I ask why you put the sheathing inside the joists? Seen at 16:36 ?

[@herbrotter]

Those are web stiffners for the I-Joists with about a 1/8th gap to combat expansion and contraction. If you never used I-Joists before, make sure you read the manufactures instructions.

[@essentialjudge2279]

Because they won't work without scabbing some more lumber to them. Truth

[@AwesomeFramers]

Those are webstiffeners and required when using I joists in this application with hangers. We need extra nailing for those hangers.

[@KG-sk8qc]

I’d Like to make a request for a video on tips for crew leaders /forman PS I’m not a framer but the info and delivery on your channel is undeniable Double emphasis on great content! -reaching out from Dallas Tx. -Kenny G.

[@einarmikkelsenPNW]

Hi Timothy. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge in a fun way. I have learned so much from watching your videos. I live up in Poulsbo, WA and I will be building a passive house, mostly myself. I have watched so many videos and read lots of materials regarding different products and methods I can use to achieve my goals. I had a house and a garage with an ADU drawn up and then sent it to an architect to get the details added and calculations completed. What I found was that it was hard to get the final details added, such as the details amazing people like Steven Baczek put in his plans. Do you have a recommendation as to who I can work with within our local area, who is up on energy efficiency (passive house) and products, such as SIGA tapes? Thank you again for your wisdom. I really appreciate it.

[@rs2024-s4u]

If rockwool is used for all exterior walls fire breaks seem unneeded and if fact the firebreaks themselves are flammable? Ray

[@rickyborden3287]

How do your drywall guys like the 24" OC framing, and no double top plate? I know we don't like to hang when there is no top plate, rake walls often don't have a top plate because the ceiling is framed to the rake wall below the top plate, or where there is a single top plate. Also, are all walls hung with 5\8" drywall? There's no way people in my area would want to pay the extra for 5\8 everywhere.

[@kennethharman2779]

5/8 vs cost of extra framing, might be zero sum, here again region variables, most modern 1/2 is more than stiff enough to handle the span on walls, 5/8 for ceilings we strap all our ceilings

[@rickyborden3287]

@@kennethharman2779 USG told me that their 1/2" is rated for 24" OC even on ceilings. I had a builder order 1\2" and he didn't want to pay the difference, or wait for them to swap out with 5\8. I didn't want to be responsible for problems down the road so I called USG. I just feel like it would take a lot more abuse on the walls.

[@AwesomeFramers]

We hang 1/2" rock on everything. Our drywallers and tapers don't care, but remember we are still double top plate.

[@samt5663]

Sly dig at Matt R. Banter!!

[@AwesomeFramers]

I love Matt, its ok to disagree and still be friends 😁

[@tanman2268]

Y’all some gangsters

[@AndrewCastellanoReal]

Does drywall still feel stiff 24" o.c.?

[@AwesomeFramers]

Yep, no one can tell the difference

[@rogerhodges7656]

Enjoyed the video. You might want to pin a link to your guest. I replayed the clip at about 28:40 more than once and cannot catch his name.

[@toddb8479]

I think you’re talking about Steven Baczek.

[@AwesomeFramers]

Bryan's info is in the video description 👍

[@zamom]

Im currently working on a cabin built in the 70’s 24oc and a lot of water issue, it really showcases how the redundancy of 16oc framing is critical when other parts of the structure as a whole begin to fail. I understand the logic but any water intrusion and the lack of redundancy makes for a much bigger repair.

[@AwesomeFramers]

What caused the water intrusion?

[@andrewhenderson9449]

Framing will hold up just fine until water is introduced.

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@andrewhenderson9449 it isn't water that is the issue, its not drying out that is the issue.

[@criss7998]

what?! i got that rock climbing / bouldering joke! would have not in a million years think i'd hear a joke like that on this channel! hilarious! haha

[@Tom-sd5ru]

Do an episode about having enough blocking everywhere for the trim carpenters 😂😂

[@AwesomeFramers]

That would be a good video. I talk to every trim carp we've ever worked with and ask them what they want. They all tell me to ignore blocking except for kitchens.

[@Tom-sd5ru]

@@AwesomeFramers remember WE make u guys look good lol🤣

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@Tom-sd5ru Exactly!! That's why I frame 😁😁

[@rustedoutwrench]

How do drywall guys like the sigle top/bottom with precuts? Have to cut all the bottom sheets on the wall.

[@toddb8479]

Your stud length would change not the height of the walls

[@rustedoutwrench]

@@toddb8479 so you'd cut every stud? Sounds terrible

[@toddb8479]

@@rustedoutwrench gang cutting studs is nothing new. Depending on the quantity I could have the lumber yard do it.

[@AwesomeFramers]

We are still double top plate. I thought I mentioned that in the video, that this is one thing that we get too much benefit out of the double plates to go single. That could change in the future, but I doubt it. Plus moving forward, any build we do under the new code will have Zip R continuous insulation.

[@rustedoutwrench]

@AwesomeFramers you did mention it I was just curious how it worked with a single

[@mathieuguyomard2293]

24 on center is the normal way here in France with 2*6

[@MegaManGabe]

Idk if it’s a downside, but hanging big pictures frames or TVs might be harder with 24in on center. I can’t stand drywall anchors

[@wvenn37]

You could put backing where you know you want to hang something

[@JeanRoi]

For a single story house I guess it would be the same right? Slab, walls and roof.

[@philipburke5933]

Who doesn’t like to get the construction tips from a boogaloo boy?

[@SM-xm7dt]

Can you speak to the use of ZipR vs not in the PNW. Thanks

[@AwesomeFramers]

Already done 😁 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJ_If4SJh6qontEfeature=shared

[@PazLeBon]

corner cutting done well

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@PazLeBon which "corner was cut"?

[@PazLeBon]

@@AwesomeFramers underbuilt as opposed to overbuilt, not a criticism , more a personal observations

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@PazLeBon "corner cutting" is indeed intended as an insult. I don't take it personally, you don't know what you don't know. This house is 24" oc vs 16" oc because 16" isn't necessary. The house is engineered and uses LVL studs. Being balloon framed, it will perform better in an earthquake that what you live in or build, if you are in construction at all.

[@PazLeBon]

@@AwesomeFramers lol, i understand my English language and it can obviously be a good or bad thing, and in this case i bracketed it as done well for clarification. dint work tho so well done for realising less is more sometimes, a concept you might understanding better haha. ironically ive gone 2x8 as opposed to 10 in some of our project specifically cos you showed i was over building

[@johnnynephrite6147]

what about single story rational 24" on center? I mean why WOULDNT I do 24" in a single story build?

[@nickfish3545]

Not gonna lie I’ve been doing a double sil on windows for 7 years and wondered why every time

[@kampjes]

New Zealand has used 24in (600mm) on centre forever.

[@BirchwoodBill]

Do you the term tie-plate or top most plate-why not use wall panels?

[@AwesomeFramers]

I don't understand the question, can you explain further?

[@steveharkins279]

The next generation of young kids,, you want to make some serious money, listen to this guy. He unlike “corporate “ only cares about your attitude, and showing up on time. Youngsters you want 60k a year in your pocket,, learn from this guy. That and check the tire pressure on the outside passenger dually ,,, its low on the work van.

[@CrestoneColorado-yj4we]

I like 24” OC, but sheeting w zip, seems to want 16”

[@AwesomeFramers]

Its rafter to go 24". I'm not sure what you mean

[@larsh.tangseth448]

here in norway what you guys call advanced framing is pretty much the standard way to build

[@AwesomeFramers]

That's why we don't like to call it "Advanced". Did Norway always frame this way?

[@castorriverfarm5236]

Please comment on the extra patience needed. By that, I mean, the hardest part I have when framing, sheathing, siding, eave work on the ground is feeling satisfied we got enough work done at the end of the day. Believe me, I get a wonderful feeling a few weeks later when we are alive and ahead of schedule. Just hard on the “day of”

[@AwesomeFramers]

YES! We used to feel and get comments on social media about how slow we were, then when all the walls are up and overhangs are already done, I would comment back to those chirpers and ask them how they frame. They would never respond. But to your point, it does feel like we aren't gett much done, until you get them up and realize most ladder work is done.

[@exit_perry]

12:28 That's a V2 in my gym

[@SaerTurner-wn2qh]

I agree the term Advanced Framing is a well ridicules. being in the industry for over 40 years and my elders being Pioneers in the industry We all have tried to find the most efficient and durable way of building for the environment nothing Advanced about that its just common sense Decision making ..not Advanced at all

[@thomasrogers7614]

#CrotchRocket #hundoe

[@steveharkins279]

I believe you are exceeding the lifting straps, on the lule, in 3 inch straps, your mind is laser focused on efficiency, but everything is getting heavier >>>……….bigger straps. Or,, don’t park the company truck on the other side of the lift. O by the way the tire pressure is low on the out side dully passenger side.

[@ardenShik]

Where’s Timmy’s fabulous beard? 🧔🏻‍♂️

[@AwesomeFramers]

If God wanted these face cheeks to be hidden, he wouldn't have made the Gilette Mach razors 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@ilickspam]

@12:29 lol typical boulderers

[@mikewarfel7511]

We were doing tall long walls in 80's you guy's are catching up

[@AwesomeFramers]

Let's see some pictures. Were they sheathed with the soffits fully installed? BTW, nowhere in this or any video have I stated that we invented this process. I have often defended what we are doing by point to those framers who were building and siding walls in the 70's.....before your time.

[@aaronblakeley9442]

Is there a chance that the next time Ferris Beuller on cam he could bring his wife, Sarah Jessica Parker??

[@yourlongtimefan]

Yawns...

[@chance52694]

I'm about to begin building a cabin in Wyoming and have always liked the idea of 2x8 wall framing at 24" OC. All the rafters will fall on a stud. what are yalls thoughts on such a condition?

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@chance52694 I don't have an opinion, since I haven't considered your climate zone. Are you doing it for insulation?

[@chance52694]

@@AwesomeFramers yes, that’s the idea. Too impractical?

[@AwesomeFramers]

@@chance52694 Nope, but you might get more bang for your buck thermally if you combine the cavity isulation with a continuous exterior insulation.

[@ellea3344]

Framers convincing people to agree to build cheaper... shock.