Advantages of Mini & Micro Layouts | Workbench Wednesday

On this week's Workbench Wednesday vlog, I give you all the pros and a couple of cons for starting out in the model railroad hobby with a mini or micro layout.
Thanks for watching!
Dave
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[@ThunderMesaStudio]

I can't believe I left out one of the biggest advantages of mini & micro layouts: PORTABILITY!

[@RobertGoslin]

Hi Dave. yep portability is a big opportunity. You can easily take the layout to other folks places as you have done. Also exhibit it at shows. I displayed my 80% finished version of the Punto Margarita at the Aust. NG Convention last Easter, as I could fit it into my Mazda CX5. And now that it's nearly finished, I will be exhibiting at local train shows. No need to hire trucks or vans as some of the bigger layouts have to do. And I find that the public quite of like the smaller layouts more. I think they appreciate what can be achieved in a small footprint.

[@joshuabrown6791]

Except portability speaks for itself so well that it just up and left your mind!

[@AlexBaldwin440]

If I may share my experience as a nobody, I had tried building multiple layouts. The first one I started at 15, and I never finished it. My first attempt at a micro layout was at 25, and it was the first layout I ever finished. I learned a lot from it. Now at 30, I am building my second micro layout. It is a 1.5 ft by 2.5 ft layout. This one is going to be something I display in my living room. But my reason to create it was so I could see if I could pull off a mining layout set in West Virginia during autumn. I have learned a lot just with this layout, but now I know I can pull that off. Try a micro layout. They are easy to build and really help you gain experience!!!!

[@Hellonwheels66]

Autumn in West Virginia is incredible!

[@RobertGoslin]

Another advantage is adding a lot more detail. Large layouts tend to have a lot of open space with sparse scenery (like the prototype). Small layouts are really like big dioramas with some trains running around, so you can really go to town on lots of detailing. So if you're more of a diorama builder, than an operations guy, then small layouts are the way to go.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Good point!

[@Seanmmvi]

Another Pro I've I think you touched on and danced around a little bit, but didn't quite come right out and say it, is that smaller layouts are actually finishable. As you eluded to, everyone sees these giant empires and say, " I want THAT" and they don't realize what a herculean undertaking a giant empire is, by every measure. Cost, time, energy, effort, dedication. I've noticed a pattern, MOST layouts I've seen, big and small, but mostly big, never make it passed what I call, "The Great Filter". Someone finds a plan, downloads it and says I'm going to build THIS! They get the benchwork done, lay the track and start the scenery. It's at this point where the layout does one of two things. Stays right there in plywood/cardboard/pinkfoam/ brown paint land forever, or gets torn down because some event happens. There's a flood, or a divorce, or a death, or someone moves, or interests change - SOMETHING happens that prevents the layout from making it through the great filter, making it passed pink foam/plywood land into a finished layout with scenery and details. A mini/micro layout I think has the highest chance of making it through this great filter. Kevin and I are 2 years and about 1,800 hours into the Wandering Spruce, which by your definition wouldn't fall into a mini or micro layout. However I think we would agree at 5'x10', it's still quite small for an O scale layout. We have broken through the great filter, we made it passed white hydrocal white and pink foam land and are well on our way to completing the layout. It's on track to take about 3 years and 2,500 hours, but it's a project where you can see the finish line, and one we are confident we will finish. Another Pro I like about micro layouts is that when I move, I can take it with me. There will need to be some sacrifices that will need to be made, at my new house I may need to taken down a wall to get it in place, but at least it's possible. A giant empire, let alone a finished empire is basically impossible to move, which I think adds to them being unlikely to finish. If I had to move right now, I could take my layout with me and finish it at my new house. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

All great points, Sean! There's a reason I featured the Wandering Spruce in the video - it's a big mini-layout and I like the way you took a plan from Ian Rice and adapted it for your needs. It's already a great looking layout.

[@bdlii]

😆 Ted Talk. Agree with all you said and this channel is the channel that really turned the light bulb on for me. The trick I'm facing is how to use my existing HO trains. Some from 40 years ago and some from 30 years ago. Important to use them rather than purchasing new and again not finishing the layout as you have described for a multitude of possible reasons. My goal is to use everything I have and spend as little as possible.

[@user-dh5bt9vd6q]

Another thing you can do is have a couple turnouts on them micro layout so you can add another section as you go have it set to run by itself but able to be expanded

[@WarpedHorizon]

What I've noticed is that people are obsessed with main line operation. No matter how small their space they want to fit UP or PRR operations into it, and make ridiculous compromises to do so. Branch lines, Class 2 lines, and narrow gauge are so much easier to model. And a single 2-6-0 pulling 6 cars will look so much better in a smaller space than a 2-8-2 pulling 20 cars.

[@timothyboles6457]

There are so many reasons for a mini or micro layout. I could write a book to answer this. Btw Dave, awesome and well done. There was a guy named Carl Arent, who had a website solely for gathering micro layout ideas, Carl passed away several years ago, but someone else picked up the website and i believe its still going. Just do a websearch for Micro train layouts, and it should pop up

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

I remember Carl's site. Good stuff!

[@fepatton]

I love micro layouts! Have you seen a magazine called Voie Libre? It’s French but available in English translation. The layouts featured in your B roll remind me of that magazine. BTW, I think you and the late Carl Arent might have a difference of opinion of what constitutes a “micro” layout. He thought it had to be _under_ four square feet! 😂

[@EcoHamletsUK]

Carl Arendt's definition was up to 4sq ft of scenic area, so excluded the area of a fiddle/staging yard. He bent his rule a bit sometimes, but not by all that much! This is the definition I use, and I think of everything Dave spoke about as a small layout! Using Dave's definition we'd need one for nano layouts too!

[@RobertGoslin]

Different folks have different definitions of Micro or Mini layout size. I'm a FB member of a British Micro layout group. Their max size is not more that 2' deep x 6' long. Not square footage.

[@johnc.9452]

I agree with every word you said, Dave. At the moment I am working on a 15 inch by 28 inch layout. Great stuff!!!

[@theoldar]

I started small, and ended up finally with an N-scale layout with a 4 scale mile mainline run. Now we will be retiring soon and moving. It will be back to a small layout for me!

[@pbyfr]

As more a builder, one advantage is also a con: the layout is finished way too soon! But as I'm superdetailling, even in N scale, a micro layout can still take a lot of time (= joy of building). A great source of inspiration of mini and micro layouts is the series of book of Kunihiko Ikeda. The illustrations are great, and the books are available as kindle, and at least for the American based, they are in English. But even these in Japanese are interesting (in fact my current N scale micro layout is based on one of these).

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Thanks for the resource!

[@thomasbowdler8856]

Carl Arendt described a micro layout as a small model railroad usually less than three or four square feet in area that nonetheless has a clear purpose and excellent operating capability. There are two facebook groups, the Micro Railway Cartel and Pizza Railway Layouts that might interest someone in small layouts.

[@LifeIsAnArt95]

Brilliant content Dave!!! You are the model railroad pioneer of our day! In the past Malcom Furlow, John Olson, Dave Frary and others inspired us in amazing ways. But your passion and attention to detail along with your love for inspirations such as Knotts, Disney and more has made the journey one to remember and be enthralled with! Thank you so much for sharing this rare talent in a world that seems to downplay analog forms of beauty and art! Kudos! ps: the Puerto Borracho Railway is also one of my absolute favorites!!! Thanks for including it in your video!

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Thank you so much for including me in such great company. I will try to live up to the compliment!

[@wolfgangpfeilergartenbahnd6530]

It always amazes me how you design these things. I've been wanting to build a small track in H0n30 for years so that I have something to ride in the winter when I'm not running my tracks in the garden. That's why I always look at your layouts with fascination. Thank you for your great videos and best wishes from Germany.

[@bradcraig6676]

I have long been a fan of model railroads but never considered having my own layout. Now you've got me thinking...

[@DuhRake]

That pickled parrot rum layout was really fun to look at, thanks for sharing

[@YMXMD]

This is terrific advice for newcomers - I wish this had been available when I started. I started with something too big/ambitious and was discouraged but fortunately I did stick with it.

[@timthetrainguy]

I’ve done a 2ft x 4ft n scale layout with a loop , an industrial siding, and a connection to a staging track

[@derekdrever3470]

I exclusively build mini and micro layouts. It allows me to fully develop an idea and complete it within a reasonable timeframe. My definition of micro is a layout that is small enough to be picked up and moved by one person without damaging either the layout or walls, but with operating capability beyond just a diorama.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Excellent definition

[@LandNfan]

I had a lot of fun with a micro layout a few years ago. I built John Allen’s “Timesaver” in HO on a 12” x 60” base. 1/4” plywood nailed and glued on a frame of 1 x 2. Sounds like it would be flimsy, but the glue construction made a quite rigid structure. Track was code 100 Atlas Snap switches and flex track on cork roadbed. Everything except the cork was from scraps, found material, and salvage from an old layout. No legs. It was used mostly at our modular club’s quarterly train shows where it was just placed on a banquet table.

[@TheCebulon]

It is a shame that the mini-/micro layout website of (I don’t remember his name) is not going on. Was such a nice resource of inspiration and different ideas.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

That was by Carl Arendt

[@mikediehl1468]

Yep! Ive been into model trains since i was kid too, just like you had done. And you're spot on Dave! Anything from the small portable layout to nothing bigger than your Thunder Mesa 2.0! Creativity should stay fun and modeling shouldn't ever be frustrating!

[@jameshendix7244]

Great video. You are spot on. Regarding costs, it is not just track, point motors, scenery etc. but also engines and cars. A basement layout with 2 engines and 10 cars is ridiculous but is often more than enough on a mini or micro layout.

[@colinoldham7947]

Another great video Dave!

[@bennihulls6851]

Dave that was great video mate thank you. I model on30, have for a long time. Here in Australia it’s hard and expensive to get so micro/mini layouts also give people a chance to try or run a new scale too.

[@martytaylor2004]

Being a “older newb” to the model railroading, this was useful. Thank you Dave and thank you commenters. Lots of excellent information and ideas.

[@Gregtrainmaster]

if you keep it 36 to 40 inches wide the layout will slide in a suv or pickup easily

[@410Gregj]

Lots of wisdom here My first real layout and presently ongoing is 15x48 O scale. Ive been at it now north of 12 years. It is a massive undertaking for one person and I will likely never finish it. Within the same room I have a 4x5 On30 layout where I spend more time and interest than with the O scale layout. The smaller space forces you to be more creative and it’s manageable. Selling and moving a micro layout could also be a pro. I’ve seen large layouts for sale that would be disastrous to move and re locate.

[@jeffreyholmes4287]

Very inspired ❤

[@ifanai]

Sorry I couldn’t watch live, but totally on the same page

[@bdlii]

You make some really nice videos on many topics I find interesting and applicable to me. Really appreciate all your insight. Better to run a few of your trains from childhood on a small layout then keep them in boxes because of the perceived lack of space. Just got my trains from when I was a kid out their 40 year old boxes and have started a micro layout to start running and futzing with them. 40 year old engines definitely need futzing :)

[@markdeschane4467]

Although I did not start out small, I agree with what you say. Starting small allows a completed layout to be finished in much shorter time for far less cost.

[@FunAtDisney]

I would add two more possibilities: One would be a wrap-around-the-room shelf layout that is either put up above door height, or a bit lower and then have a removable bridge section where the room door is. The higher one may not be the best for view and you have to work in sections on a workbench, but like the one Dale did, it could still be detailed and tell a story. The other option is a streetcar (or “traction”) line shelf layout and model it in a certain era. You could do the famous LA Pacific Electric Recycling Car line, or New Orleans, or if you are Disneyland fan like me you could do Main Street (yes, those are horse-drawn but you could do 1920’s electric street cars). The beauty of street cars is they could indeed to a tight turn-about at each end as they do so in real life! Admittedly my biggest dilemma is having these long HO scale passenger trains from my youth (1970’s) of the SP Coast Daylight, Santa Fe and numerous engines of that time (passenger and freight) and just not having the room to use those.

[@UPturbinefan]

There is a very big layout just down the road from you in Cottonwood. The Wyoming Division Historical Society, I have operated on it and it takes all day to run from cheyenne to ogden. As you said it takes a staff to run it.

[@charlesheinlein1923]

Nice job Dave Looking for some ideas for a small hon3 layout. Your sharing with us is appreciated Enjoy all your episodes. Thanks

[@dkaustin98]

There was a term used for awhile called "The Chainsaw layout." It was the layout you learned all your skills on. Most likely you would hit a point when you say to yourself, "I have learned a lot and I now know I can do better." You salvage the items you want to keep from the Chainsaw layout and then cut it up to make room for a better layout. I think that is something a beginner should consider. Your first layout is not your masterpiece. Nor should it be an empire to fill a basement. You would be surprised how many under construction basement empires get abandoned when one loses interest.

[@user-sv4pj5jl8n]

Track plan #7 in 101 Trackplans for Model Railroaders. The Apple Creek Junction is a wonderful micro switching layout with " broad curves" in a four square foot space in HO.

[@thunderstruck5484]

Thanks Dave, that was really neat seeing you standing next to Gruesome Gulch , your filming is so good it looked so much bigger, reminded me of those old pictures of Ray Harryhausen as he worked on the tiny figures for Jason and the Argonauts and the excellent stop motion he created, I always remember your advice for starting small, what a wonderful skill and craft creating these detailed small worlds, thanks again

[@radiofry]

I used to think I needed 4x8 for a layout, and thus had written off building a layout. Not enough space and money. But then I created an n-scale layout of maybe 3x4 with a double track main line loop and three branches from the inner loop. Much more attainable goals. Easily operated with one person. I’d love to have a big layout, but a micro layout is better than no layout.

[@geoffreyhampson3993]

Carl Arendt's Micro Layout Gallery has a great variety of small layouts on it. Another advantage of a small layout is that it can move us out of the armchair. How often do we not build anything as we're not really sure what we want or to commit to one thing. Build a few micros and see how it goes. We soon find out our preferences and can run from there. Could even build the same micro 4 times but scenic it for each of the seasons, just for a different look. A centre piece for the living room perhaps.

[@williamdickman7917]

Great discussion, Dave, love those layouts that show up at Gary's

[@E4lok]

I fully agree, Dave. Space is the first reason if you live in an apartment, like me. I have build two micro-layouts at home, one in HO scale, a box file layout , and the second in On30. I started in the hobby when I was a kid, with the Xmas starter set. I also tried modules many years ago, but you have to wait for meetings to enjoy the trains running, and you need space for storage in the mean time. Thanks for your work!

[@stevereightler4126]

Love micro pizza layouts. They aren't that interesting operationally but I prefer railfanning. I built 2 N scale and 1 HO micros.

[@mikeregan8894]

Hi Dave Great Wednesday night special. I always look forward to your talks. Rich White built a series of small units that is just fantastic. The detail is Awesome. It’s only 18 inches wide and 5 or 6 feet long . I love your ideas. Keep moving forward.

[@MicroModelRailwayDispatch]

Great looking layouts. May I point you in the direction of the Micro Model Railway Dispatch, the free online journal for micro layout enthusiasts? It comes out four times a year and is always full of great micro layouts and idea. As editor I go with the traditional micro layout definition of four square feet and under. Your layouts look great and i find myself wishing they were under four square feet.

[@somedingusonyoutube433]

I’ve found that it’s much more manageable to make a small layout. Especially scenery

[@narrowgaugegreg]

nice Zeppelin t-shirt, Dave.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Rock on!

[@puertoborrachorailway7317]

Great video Dave! Mini’s and Micros rule!!

[@poppystrains]

Great video. Just what I needed at the moment.

[@railfilm]

Hi Dave, I fully agree with you! The problem there is no real railroad similar to your projects and also not in the shops. This means the newcomer has no idea what to build and no chance to see in real life an example what to model in small size. Everybody from us in the very beginning of the hobby needed some inspiration what to build. Todays hobby magazines are full with stupid electronic issues/questions imported by DCC penetration instead of real modelling ideas. The railroad modelling is somehow the miniaturized copy of the real❤ world. It is extremely difficult to rebuild something what does not exist. We , experienced modellers collected in our lifes many information before we started to build layouts similar to yours. Very few people have a chance to see old fashion local lines, real logging railroads etc, or read many historical books about the railroads.before 1-2 centuries, but many people see on the recent railroad trains with 3-5 long locomotives, and miles long trains, from extremely long cars etc. When we were kids on the local railroad a single small locomotive with a single coach or galopping goose ( etc) was a train. Today when you see such line the shortest DMU or EMU is longer as a track you can install on your mini/micro layout. Please also do not expect from the new generation to rebuild modify some of the recent new locomotives by the industry. They are sometimes too expensive to put them on layout ( to take them aout from their boxes) , not to mention to start an experiment with disassembling and reassembling into a new smaller model. 😢

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Great points!

[@andreasatlars4281]

I think modeling scale should be taken into consideration to; 3x6 isn't much for G scale, but it’s quite large for a freestanding n scale layout.

[@BDCSam]

I’m here for the detailed model building you do Dave, it would seem like the smaller layout would offer more opportunity to go to extreme detail with the storytelling and design elements to bring it to life. Gruesome Gultch is good example. While all of your layouts are incredibly detailed, us mere mortals could focus our detailing in a smaller layout to try new techniques. Just my opinion.

[@doncure2019]

Great job dave, good advice.

[@bob_._.]

Pro: if you start out too big it's easier to get overwhelmed, and overwhelmingly discouraged, and leave the hobby forever without ever really experiencing it.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

That's for sure

[@debbiegipson4512]

Well here is another Disney reference...."It's a small world after all...a small, small world"....😏

[@emilkuttel1]

T gauge, just bring our magnifying glass. Thats micro. The layout I am working on is 600mm x 400. Still gonna have 4 tunnels and 3 bridges.

[@ingomoba1001]

Nice Micro Layout. Like me🛠🤩👍👍👍

[@davidw6936]

I feel that what counts as mini or micro depends on scale. In Z scale, a 2 x 4 foot layout isn’t mini at all, as you can do anything that you can do in 4 x 8 in HO.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Good point!

[@drewhalvorsen4739]

I am just starting on this with a 4x8 . I have my first train set or Xmas 70 years ago. May be you could try and talk down to me

[@billkraemer4710]

Getting ready to build a 32” x 80”ish On30. Jolly mons banana farm, um ranch, or is that a plantation? Anyone got a source on O scale bananas?

[@stanbrown915]

Micro in N Scale is my goal. 3×3...maybe 3×4

[@prc789]

Just searched for the Iain Rice book. Can't believe the prices, £132.15 to £203.82 for a 'New' copy and £28.38 to £121.99 for a 'Used' copy/ And that doesn't include the postage of around £30

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Yes, unfortunately it's out of print (which I didn't know when recording the video). Hopefully Kalmbach will re-run it again.

[@bigmatt1446]

Wher should I be shopping for quality ON30 locomotives? Bachmann seems to be very hit or miss.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

That's a good topic for a future video. I find a lot of stuff on Ebay. You can also convert HO mechanisms/frames to On30 with parts available from a few makers. See the "Useful Links" tab on my website: thundermesa.studio/useful-links/

[@justingilmore4595]

Carl arden's website defines this

[@bigwoz78]

Nice shirt

[@keithbowman1299]

If I were to switch over to On30, could you give some sources for structures and rolling stock? Or is this gauge more of a scratchbuilders avenue?

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

I did a video on 10 Things to Know Before Starting an On30 Layout. Check it out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYKtfZ2pbceskJIsi=D4QJVpYUB66dxxS7

[@k3ndawg7]

Start small. Even the Gorre & Daphetid started out at less than 4x8.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Very true!

[@ViewFromAfar]

😊😊😊😊

[@dstenger]

Pro....Expandability! The Gorre and Daphetid started as a mini layout.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

Very true

[@garyvision3938]

I live in an apartment and have an HO shelf layout which is about 1 ft by 6 ft and an HO pizza layout about 3ft square. Both are light weight and very portable. I can combine my 2 layouts by simply placing them side by side. Micro layouts are great creative fun. Who wants to spend years working just on the same single big layout-- boring! My attention span is too short to do that.

[@BlackcloudRailways]

Tuned out after a couple of minutes. Sorry but 18 square feet (6x3) is neither small nor micro. A micro is FOUR SQUARE FEET or less.

[@ThunderMesaStudio]

If you had watched another minute or two, rather than rushing to the comments, you may have heard me say that those are just my definitions and are by no means universal.