After Socrates: Episode 4 - Reverse Engineering the Dialectic | Dr. John Vervaeke

Welcome back to episode 4 of After Socrates! Episode 5 releases next Monday, January 23rd, 2023. Please join our patreon to support our work! / johnvervaeke
--
You are invited to join me live, online, at the next Circling & Dialogos Workshop where we discuss & practice the tools involved in both Philosophical Fellowship & Dialectic into Dialogos.
You can find more information, and register, here:
circlinginstitute.com/circlin...
--
Thinkers Referenced:
Phillip S. Cary
Taylor Barratt
Peter Limberg
Guy Sengstock
Pierre Hadot
L. A. Paul
Agnes Callard
Christopher Moore
Lev Vygotsky
Michael Polanyi
Maurice Merleau-Ponty
Sara Ahbel-Rappe
William James
---
After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you for continuing to follow After Socrates with me! Remember, it is important to engage in the practices shown :)

[@adrianlittle9989]

I’m loving the series so far John. I particularly enjoy seeing how so many ideas developed by diverse people converge. It is truly enlightening. Thank you for your time and devotion! 🙏

[@X11bl]

Finally here episode 4, was looking forward to it. Thank you John for doing it. 🫂

[@brycecarlisle5749]

This series is phenomenal.

[@billylikesjelly]

This is illuminating. Thank you, John Vervaeke.

[@givemorephilosophy]

Dr.John Vervaeke, Awesome and Amazing depth and openness into getting to know the truth. The science of the soul/the life atom it's structure features and existence and GOD as a morphogenic field explaining Quantum Entaglement can help complete the great knowledge of Existence Reality you are putting together . I would love to put this out to you as a proposal and has helped me live life the way you are explaining . So grateful to you for the great work you are doing. We humanity together are close to creating utopia and everyone is in order by self regulation and not by external man made rules and laws but Existential Reality 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@alvarogranell721]

This guy makes you rethink the nature of every single word or concept

[@juanromero7189]

I'm without words. All I can tell is you belong to the group of the greatest sages/saints of all time. I can see Socrates and Plato, I can see Plotinus, I can see Thomas Aquinas, the Buddha himself in you. I feel an immense gratitude John. Thank you from the deepest part of my soul.

[@johnzielinski9951]

The type of dialectic you're describing is exactly what I've been experiencing in a 12-step group for the past 13 years

[@devilinlee]

While not in the program myself, my wife is, and I have a deep respect and appreciation for it. So much so that I sometimes joke that I’m jealous that I’m not an alchoholic! The overlap between 12 step, non-duality, dialogos, mysticism, etc. runs so deep that I’d go so far as to say they’re identical in at least some aspects. And regardless of their differences, I’m certain the “goal” for lack of a better word, is the same. Sandy Beach was a living example I think, in a way a very much aspire too. I listen to speaker meetings often and I’m convinced that AA, for its imperfections, to date is the best attempt at systematizing the un-systemizeable.

[@johnzielinski9951]

@@devilinlee I've been reading one of the books John recommended in the first video, Faller's "The Art Of Spiritual Midwifery." The author talks about the surprising role of irony in spiritual development, and it occurred to me that the transformative power of AA rests largely in the tremendous irony of one alcoholic helping another - talk about the blind leading the blind! And yet, for many people, it works like no other therapeutic modality.

[@justinrose8661]

I'm a Buddhist and took my vows in the Nyingma Longchen Nyingtik Kathok lineage. Your elucidation of the self in the context of shunyata is really really great. I've been trying to explain it in simple terms for years. I'm very encouraged that you didn't apply a "nothing but" explanation to it. Very sound, very easy to understand. I wonder if you've ever read any works by Dudjom Lingpa, who was a Tibetan layman who came to some of the most profound realizations by his confrontation with various Buddhist deities in his dreams..Also, I've spent most of the last decade studying Jung very deeply and was brought to Henry Corbin because they were deeply connected as friends apparently and had a shared imaginal experience of an inner sage.. Jung's inner gnostic teacher and Corbins inner sheik. It makes my heart beam that you're bringing these deeper and more seemingly esoteric subjects to your viewers. It's really something, John. Thank you

[@dalibofurnell]

Around 40 minutes, 50 seconds, I started experiencing goosebumps and then a deep resonation in my core , almost as if I was fed . I felt in sync at this point. I felt a sense that was profound, and my heart grew ❤️ Best episode so far

[@anthonylawton5363]

Yes this is really building on awakening from the meaning crisis in a powerful way :)

[@SubZero7450]

Yes! This brought tears to my eyes. So much of what I have studied since the first watching awakening from the meaning crisis has culminated in this episode.

[@SOC-]

I appreciate the distinction between seeing nothingness in one's self, and nothingness in reality. Thank you John, beautifully done.

[@billtimmons7071]

27:09 " You know through other people". My favorite statement in this video. If we love wisdom, if we love knowledge, if we love life, then we must love other people. Propositions be damned .... give me healthy participation with charitable others.

[@quentissential]

Hi Bill! You still doing ELSNet? We met on day 1 of that project back in November 2020... Rather than damning propositions I like to redeem them-there words by transforming my speech into words of proposal (think of a marriage PROPOSITION). This approach, I think, gets at the wisdom of being with other people, participating charitably, gratefully, thankfully, joyfully, graciously

[@billtimmons7071]

@@quentissential I like your style. No, not doing meetings anymore.

[@AlexxH2O]

YES! Love the up in production quality - and the new glasses too - your content deserves more eyes! Thank you for everything!

[@MarkaKnight]

I'm using the humble wonder practice before engaging in dialogue (ie, any conversation), turning towards the you (ie "there is so much I don't know about YOU because of all the facts." ). It does something. (Though I struggle a bit with the "thingyness" of the word "facts." Seems important to not reify this.)

[@gettingtogive]

Simply wonderful John. The best explanation yet on some very important but difficult topics. Fabulous. Thank you 🙏

[@sarahcalburn3387]

I love you, John Vervaeke. I'd like to thank you for your time, your immense attention, for your luminous clarity and intelligence. Thank you.

[@gabriellantis2852]

Dropping the first 3 episodes at the same time was a great idea. Thanks, looking forward to this one!

[@johnvervaeke]

Glad you like the series thus-far! Keep at it :)

[@TheTenThousandThings]

Can we just have a series where you discuss and propose practices for each perennial problem? Whiteboard in an empty lecture hall is perfectly fine. Guests who specialize in treatment, research, etc relevant to each topic would be great too.

[@nathancurtis5820]

9:54 The Horizontal Dimension of Dialectic 10:46 The Vertical Dimension of Dialectic 13:08 Philia 15:14 Sophia 21:20 Aspiration 22:20 Relational Self 24:39 Internalization and Indweilling 29:21 Self as aspirational 33:45 Socratic ignorance, Platonic knowledge 38:59 Back to Aporia - Self Knowing 44:01 No-thingness 48:04 Socrates and Suhrawardi 49:00 Illumination 52:59 Indwell to internalize, internalize to indwell 55:34 Anagogic Loop 57:24 God, Logos, light 58:26 Three books that are networked together 1:00:55 Kirkland, Alethea, Socratic Questioning 1:16:26 Practices

[@billtimmons7071]

Thank you for doing the time stamping. It really helps

[@nathancurtis5820]

@@billtimmons7071 no problem! Sorry it is not done yet. Still working my way through it

[@NaturalBoarding]

Thank so much for your work. Very practical to navigation between concepts and deepen their connections.

[@nathancurtis5820]

@@NaturalBoarding no problem! Hoped that the timestamps were relevant

[@tonyhathuc]

This is just so amazing and ground-breaking. As a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, Karma Kagyu school I can relate to a lot of the concepts you are presenting here! Love you and your work!

[@mellonglass]

An excellent statement to end particle physics. We see waves and frequencies in the meaning crisis. Conscious is not a ‘thing’, it is vibration.

[@n8works]

The wait is over! 🙏

[@johnvervaeke]

:)

[@Slackarius]

Looking forward to another watch. Just need to block out the time to give it the proper attention. Thank you for the invitation to participate and sharing with the world.

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee!

[@Xaloxulu]

I am currently wading through Religion & Nothingness because of you so I was not surprised when Nishitani got mentioned, thank you for the episode🙏

[@martinchikilian]

Such a powerful episode. Thank you as always, John! Looking forward to the next one.

[@Beederda]

I appreciate your time JV ❤

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

John, I started my own group to do dialectic. It made me extremely nervous and insecure at first but I’m going toward that fear. The exercise you talked about where you go to the edge of horror and back down was interesting and different from my other experiences with meditation/breathing practice. Thank you for inspiring people, thank you for challenging us instead of giving merely feel-good self help. Your diligence is admirable. The patience you have to lay things out in a way that doesn’t feel haphazard makes me feel more engaged and along for the ride with you.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you so much for your support. I look forward to hearing how about your experience with creating your own group.

[@givemorephilosophy]

We are a group of around 10000 people understanding existential reality as so simple and in order . Adding the missing pieces of puzzle to all sciences so far and complete the knowledge for all of humanity in addition to ourselves living in order in our own families and work. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@HighVibrationCongregation]

Doing show rn, can’t wait to see this.

[@harveyrussellmusic]

This is a massive episode!

[@Art2GoCanada]

Thanks John, I was touched by witnessing your dance with the God of the Gaps. Excellent in formation!

[@biscuitsandthat]

Hilarious piece of performance art, bravo!

[@thomashelliger2297]

Mind blown, arriving at the horizon of wonder. Knowing myself as I am knowing the world...

[@OmriC]

Damn that was profound. Thank you John.

[@jeremyfurtner]

Thank you for this series John!!!

[@shaynehunter6160]

Thanks for making these john.

[@johnoswald9143]

Mind blowing content, Thank you again and again.

[@nathancurtis5820]

I've been able to take extensive notes so far. Getting some time on on Ep 4 today before The Stoa After Socrates

[@nikolasimeonov]

Thank you!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you for your continued support!

[@therealruski3906]

Thank you

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

The conservative but very original thinker Michael Oakeshott has also written wonderfully about "tacit knowledge" related to his critic of scientism and rationalism;

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

Thanks, respect and applause from Tracy in Wales.

[@Makinki1]

I love these episodes. 🎉 You left us with curiosity again. You almost made it to the timelessness with the ultimate transcendence…I was waiting for that already. 😂😂😂

[@danielfoliaco3873]

This my first time feeling that. I can recognize for the first time this feeling that has been with me in every episode of awakening from the meaning crisis and other content similar channels.

[@KalebPeters99]

Check out Johannes A. Niederhauser!

[@davidkelly7715]

Great video great job well done that's all I can say thank you 🙂

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Thanks for the recap. Looking forward to the timestamps. Maybe I'll sketch out a diagram of the vertical and horizontal

[@quentissential]

1:21:50 Mysterious, yet making intelligible: oneness. Thank you for that propositional gem.

[@vickyturner8373]

This is so exciting. INHALING and E-X-H-A-L-I-N-G. My whole body is hearing this.🙏 In Gratitude.

[@andrewalgra]

It's natural to put horizontal first because of the emphasis on dialectic. Dialectic is primarily horizontal with a vertical aspect. Rhetoric is primarily vertical with a horizontal aspect. Neither balances alone, we need both. This series on dialectic is through rhetoric.

[@KizaWittaker]

47:00 This is what Socrates means when he says he knows nothing!! He knows no-thing, he knows his self - thy self!! Omg huge revelation.

[@SuperBermondsey]

i am silence which is aware of itself only

[@danielfoliaco3873]

43:08 I can finally understand the Elusive "I" 👁️ series.

[@latneyblunk3643]

Here we go.

[@johnvervaeke]

I hope you enjoy today's episode!

[@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858]

_Keep up the great work! Love the content. We need more of you, forever. But hay,_ have you ever studied Milton Erickson? _I believe that he LITERALLY is the reincarnation of Socrates. I think you could integrate his teachings in a fine fashion; the final piece, I feel._

[@GetUnlabeled]

I've had a lifelong direct connection to Sophia, it's now my purpose to connect the collective in philia

[@thesame6258]

Love your work John I'm going along on this journey with you. I feel a longing to discard philosophy in the manner you have suggested is not in contradiction with the socratic path. This is why the study practise hasn't really landed for me yet. I do appreciate it, but I'm still missing why it is so crucial. The other practises are great, but I feel like I'm ruminating and analyzing a lot when I'm doing all the practises back to back in 30 minutes. I feel like this lifestyle/ecology of practises is great, but I hope you will return to them to place them in context and maybe elaborate on how you intend them to be practised. Yours Truly, Onni

[@simbabwe2907]

The problem with reinventing a art is that it has certain tacit ways of knowledge that can only be transmitted by being emersed in the culture of the practice itself. Even the language in which the practice is pactised shapes the practice but in a hidden way. Reverse engineering the platonic dialektik is a daunting task. But maybe possible.

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

I said “episode fooooooouuuur” like it was a Spanish football goal.

[@varhelyiadrian109]

Thank you! I just finished Viktor Pelevin Book called Invincible Sun he is coming to a similar conclusion, not accidentally because the protagonist doing a Goenka vipassana retreat in the end about the unknowable, inexpressible, no-self, no-thingness.

[@givemorephilosophy]

Everything is there real and can be expressed and with full humility and responsibility I am doing my bit to share and spread that by living by it .

[@shogun9450]

Thank you for releasing these episodes, Jordan Peterson seems to interrupt you before you can finish your thought so this was a nice change of pace

[@brendantannam499]

Yes, he really needs to stop doing that.

[@ashjaymohsin5583]

John, you mentioned that you would be creating a new series called 'The God Beyond God', any updates on that ?

[@johnvervaeke]

There WILL be exciting updates on that project in the relatively near future!

[@SorryBeeinLate]

This wee space 🤣🤣🤣

[@user-yd1dw6it3r]

🙏

[@danielfoliaco3873]

1:22:10 sensei, why did I feel infinitude in a infinitesimal small time throughout space. It felt like an insight of the phnomenology of the Plank time measure unit 😂 or something like that. Anyway, I've never felt that especially intense moment in this reflection technique. 👍🏼 A lot.

[@sohamsuke]

It's kinda nuts to think about the perspectival knowing and the eye when you incorporate remote viewing experiences. Because, even when observing yourself from afar, you're still a part of what is down there, still observing through "the frame", even tho afar. Consciousness is definitely non-local. :)

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

By the way there is a very interesting analysis of Plato's allegory of the cave in Oakeshott's book "On human Conduct".( I loved this book eventhough it is elusive and against most of my political ideas)Briefly according to Oakeshott the superior understanding gained by the ascent to the light cannot remplace genuine practical knowledge of those in the cave have in dealing with the shadows. Does Oakeshott not get right the different types of knowledge involved?

[@cedcob]

I am having issues with a few of the practices. Some are abstract enough that I'm not sure what to imagine. Let me give an example. With the indwelling, am I imagining a whole bunch of things at once or thing by thing? Do I indwell "my surroundings" (I find difficult) or "this tree" and then "this space" and then "this house" etc.? Same with rooting. When I inhale. Am I expanding 360° into everything? I'm having issues picturing everything 😆 i only picture my roof, the neighbors house and a few things over and over. Having difficulty with getting more resolution in my mind. Any help?

[@kevin_heslip]

Small correction for a typo at 50:30, Keiji Nishitani was born in 1900 and died in 1990.

[@wenyang5916]

40:27 I just realized in Chinese, "I" and "me" is the same word “我”. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to google translate, many non-western languages do NOT differentiate between the subjective "I" and objective "me". (Japanese, Korean, Arabic) Wondering if there any linguistic research is done on the effect of this and self-perception? (analogous to the future-time reference hypothesis)

[@goldjacket4918]

Is there a cheat sheet, or a list of all the practices mentioned so far in the series? It’s kind of hard to keep track

[@MarkaKnight]

Centering (posture, attention, attitude), Rooting, Humble Wonder, Imaginal Theoria...

[@SpencerTwiddy]

Anyone know the name of the intro song?

[@elsawiegers1093]

what is the music, please?

[@normaorlando3538]

John could you say for the Stoics that in their theory of knowledge they are sensationalists:all knowledge for them is based on sensations that is derived from the senses? Still only halfway into Episode 4 and really have to listen more than once. Fantastic work John!

[@givemorephilosophy]

Stoicism does not align with the Existential Reality of abundnace. Humanity is to be in a europhia stage of abundance and ensuring the enriching of the planet by a judicious way of harmonious living by knowing all that there is to know. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@robertgray9599]

Epictetus talks about Providence and taught by examples and analogies that were creative. Marcus Aurelius participated in mythical-imaginal rites and supported rebuilding temples to Gods that aren't sensed by sight or sound or touch. They had practices to cultivate imaginal capacities like the view from above or the sphere of Empedocles, so I don't think it would be accurate to describe them as sensationalists (but what they did was sensational 😀). I think it would be more fair to say they aspired to separate our reactions and meanings of events from the physical, but did it not to be a cult of the physical but rather to transcend unconscious or enculturated reactions and better fit to the world by having more agency and understanding (know thyself).

[@nohypocrisy]

the soul, intended, unreasonable, ignorance, health, pride, dream, fear, impatient, serious attitude, excuse, miracle

[@KalebPeters99]

"background" has a similarly two-dimensional counterpart in "upfront" :)

[@abdelhassan9501]

Isn't Dialectic the basis for DBT (dialectical behavior therapy)? Are we in a way giving ourselves (or each other) therapy for an inherent form of mental illness that plagues the human brain?

[@yazanasad7811]

'You' perspective Imagine future self. Don't like doing this because ugly. Instead imagine future self as family member deeply love and care(to open) Imaginal aspirational dialogical / relates to rationality (realise appropriate goals as being overcoming self deception) - relates to dialectic Allows people to save money for example

[@yazanasad7811]

Animal Vs human: agent arena can shift, perspectively take on different views. Fundamental I is no thing (can never step back) I guess this can lead to aporia Can't see it only be it. Only source of perspectively knowing and participating in it Logos: Let there be light/logos. physical light and mental light and the relation between them. allow for discernment, intelligibility, clear being. One can help shine the light on another cant see light, only see through it by means of it. what does this mean? i see sun/light bulb? you cant see the source of light (light bulb sun) but can see the light that emanates from this. I only see the manifestation of light? Heidegger - aletheia (unconcealedness/concealedness) - things shine in light but they come from no-thingness of the background, one things shines while other things drop in the back ground (phenomologically). light is coming from around darkness? You can't see what it emerges from (you see the visible aspect of light but not the source, which remains hidden). The aspect of the light is being shown from a mysterious source( and will always be mysterious)

[@yazanasad7811]

Being is no thing and this can be best realised within, once through that can externalise. all around there is no being, cannot point to anything.

[@Thilosophocl3s]

Intimacy (Into me you see)

[@samar1462]

John, I suggest you check out h krishnamurti's content on KZbin and listen to what he says. It also connects with what you are saying here.

[@yosefrazin6455]

But in Genesis, there is a gap between the light and God's logos/word, the light is bound to but emenates from the logos. Is there such space in Greek thought?

[@joebossano9440]

From a follower, re the 'contemplative' dimension, surprised not to hear something etymological: 'con-' and something drawing on our modern 'template'...?

[@anthonylawton5363]

Transjective is really starting to make sense. I am also starting to see J Krishnamurti talking to John's work more and more kzbin.info8a2AXDG_1os?feature=share. Does this resonate with you after episode 4?

[@SomeGuy-cw9rw]

So can we interpret ALATHEA as revelation? That’s what I get when I hear you saying bringing something to light. Unconcealment. Uncovering. A revealing, or revelation. If so, who or what reveals?

[@clintnorton4322]

"You can never see the 'I'. Why not? Why can't an entity be distinctly both subject and object at the same time? Not a merging of the two, distinctly both.

[@n8works]

Maybe a good modern analog for fellowship is what a lot of folks experience on things like Discord or on a tight subreddit. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[@vartanvartanian4412]

Why can’t you use the term consciousness when dealing with “I”

[@biscuitsandthat]

This is such a brilliant troll. The practice at the end 🤣

[@maidenmonster2589]

I is a strange loop

[@antkcuck]

How many episodes should we expect in total?

[@mattgumbley1317]

25

[@givemorephilosophy]

This is not arithmetic and beyond numbers. Any section alone is complete in itself. Every portion of each episode is so many episodes complete in itself. 🙂🙂🙂🙏🙏

[@shogun9450]

@@givemorephilosophy so logos lol good way to explain it 👍

[@givemorephilosophy]

@@shogun9450 This is not me Arthur Kotler in The book JANUS describes Existential reality as a very structured system of everything complete in itself and playing its role in the bigger order. He could not understand teh LIfe atom/Soul and so committed suicide....Alas if this knowledge about the soul and life atom had been there with him.

[@mikhailvolkov833]

I feel so stupid I could't follow a thing ;( explosive abstraction, loosely bound....

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

You say "people are not living better lives because of their academic philosophy." Well I am. I don't really understand what you mean by "academic philosophy", but I have been very much moved in the good sense, towards wisdom, for example by Spinoza and by Kant( who is not much honored here and unjustly criticized ) And the two of them have lived ethical lives. There is much in their philosophies which underlie the lives they have led. This area of "propositional knowledge" can be tricky. A kind of Socrates who is immoral (like Heidegger) can be mesmerizing but can lead one astray. Yes, comparing ethical theories is important to me; when a thinker speaks of wisdom he must have a theory of ethics too. No such theory in a mystificateur like Heidegger.

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

I wrote "propositional knowledge" instead of " participatory knowledge" by mistake in my first comment;

[@antkcuck]

Have you given much thought to how people with autism, ADHD or OCD might interact with these practices?

[@mellonglass]

How about we ‘teach’ ADHD in school, with its industrial uselessness to not explain the middle ground of stolen themes, divisions and classes of arbitrary ‘stages’ imposed of no scientific value.

[@jiggybau]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYC8hZ58hbBjars "The no-thingness that's the ground from which your self emerges participates in the no-thingness that's the ground of all reality". Participates or is identical to? I'm inclined to believe the latter, which would (I guess) be somewhat Jungian perhaps?

[@suzettedarrow8739]

What do you have to say to Rorty in his essay "Against Depth"? He argues (as the title suggests) that speaking of 'higher and lower levels' is bad. Your whole grammar is based on the ideas of higher and lower levels. So, it seems like you and Rorty are on a crash course into one another.

[@suzettedarrow8739]

To follow up my previous comment, I *can* make a legitimate claim that I don't need the grammar of 'higher and lower levels', right? Perhaps I can't make a legitimate claim that I don't need philia and sophia, but I *can* make a legitimate claim that I don't need the grammar of 'higher and lower levels of reality', right?

[@socraticsceptic8047]

@@suzettedarrow8739 Sorry to jump in....What about this sense of hierarchy? - take as an example a google map - you have various levels of map. from the high def satellite photo to the bare street map and a few inbetween. Now is there a natural ordering here? Yes because the satellite image produces all the other maps by taking out detail. Of course for many practical purposes it is better to have a street map rather than a satellite photo, however the point is that given time a street map can be produced from the satellite photo but not the other way round. For day to day purposes you want a street map, but for big plans projects etc you need as much detail as possible. The other feature of this analogy is that it shows the entropy in hierarchies- if you lack access to a satellite and fresh images then the photo you have can *only* degrade (lets say it is a photo for simplicities sake) . Eventfully the maps you have are so degraded we can only restart by getting a new satellite, i.e meaning crisis and everything crisis of today

[@suzettedarrow8739]

@@socraticsceptic8047 No, there is no use (for me, at least) in thinking of google maps as having a natural ordering. The street map offers one perspective when I need to know where to go. The satellite map offers another perspective. Thinking of the two perspectives as 'ordered' is superfluous.

[@socraticsceptic8047]

@@suzettedarrow8739 How do you account for the asymmetry of one picture including the other? you can create the map from the photo but not the photo from the map...

[@suzettedarrow8739]

@@socraticsceptic8047Sure I can create a photo from a map. Why can't I?

[@angelaway1353]

John, would you feel okay with me putting this information in this video on my website for educational purposes? You are the greatest!

[@itamarblumfield1462]

I love these videos but about not seeing light... isn't it the other way around? we literally see nothing but light. we sense the light with our eyes and we actually don't see objects - we see light reflect from them. I don't think it undermines the idea that is stated but scientifically not true (?). can someone factcheck me?

[@quartqwertbudisgood]

As far as I understood he was referring to the internal imaging process where your subconscious mental operations organize the images/ light patterns you are seeing into a scene that makes sense. For example there are drugs that will make you hallucinate so dramatically you won’t be able to see anything real even though your eyes are still receiving light input. More to the point, what we really see is something like an internally generated image that is based on visual input. Other considerations like drugs, extreme Mental aberrations, or even just priorities can effect what we actually perceive.

[@archanglemercuri]

ok okay • Sir Vervæke • Let us be of midwifing births 🔽 until 🔼 “hey eLogos you hear that buddy?? we need you!!!” 😊 “••1777\/\/h3h3he eh yeh (ears plug and vibrate, back of head gets cold; sees with eyes lids down) •• more food pwease” “… you 😧know i make all of our food that’s a lot of dishes… but ok!”😂

[@archanglemercuri]

April 23rd 2021, gno wait 423 year, know wait, 88 cubits orrr wait… 88th Olympics? Haha “can we do 4 + 4” = ♾️🧬🫠 i dunno

[@auggiemarsh8682]

As much as I love your content John, I am really not liking the format and presentation. It just sounds and looks too forced and performance based. At least compared to your lecture series. I would have preferred a lecture format. I don’t know. There’s just something strange about your delivery that makes it difficult to watch and something in your tone and inflection that makes it difficult to listen to. And I’ve been a big fan of yours for a long time

[@eunoiaeudaimonia6829]

It's called being somewhat nervous, it's not an easy task trying to explain or elaborate on Socrates after all.

[@auggiemarsh8682]

@@eunoiaeudaimonia6829 I thought about that, however, Mr. Vervaeke has been presenting a very long time and I've never seen him nervous. The nervousness could be a result of John trying to adapt to someone else's production. Too many camera angles for one. I'm just going to assume John did not choose this format

[@eunoiaeudaimonia6829]

@@auggiemarsh8682 maybe an idea from the collaboration that’s being done on the subject.

[@donovan665]

Someone please teach this man congruent gestures to words, it's painful. Please watch yourself, listen and ask yourself, does that gesture match what is being said? Honesty in this will pay dividends in terms of clarity.

[@RasmusPallesen]

With all respect, I feel like you're making the pursuit of wisdom sound needlessly overly complicated and dramatic. Fancy words and numerous references just clutter the mind. You don't come across as a person who has experienced the Supreme Good as described by Plato in his Replubic, by the way you articulate yourself like a sophist would. The life with virtue is a simple one. Tao Teh Ching 19 ""DROP wisdom, abandon cleverness, And the people will be benefited a hundredfold." ... See the Simple and embrace the Primal, Diminish the self and curb the desires!" 56 "Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know. ..."

[@shogun9450]

He’s a PHD actively helping on cutting edge philosophy papers that have to use that language. I think he’s doing a good job balancing academic rigor and simpler terms for us who only read primary texts like the Tao te Ching

[@RasmusPallesen]

@@shogun9450 My point was that academic rigor goes against the simplicity of philosophy. Knowing complicated terminology does not make you a wiser person, it just makes you a better sophist. Learning is a process that should never end but concerning the pursuit of philosophy there is no "cutting edge" since you already know everything you need to know. 'Know Thyself' and truly accept yourself and you will experience your self-love transform into devotion for wisdom. Again, I'm sure he is a competent person well-versed in philosophical rhetoric, but he comes across as a color-blind person who explains the beauty and harmony of colors using technical language. 'Know thyself' and you will experience the magnificence of colors on your own without his 'helpful' aid. Xenophon: The Memorabilia VII. "For instance, he (Socrates) said that the study of geometry should be pursued until the student was competent to measure a parcel of land accurately in case he wanted to take over, convey or divide it, or to compute the yield; and this knowledge was so easy to acquire, that anyone who gave his mind to mensuration knew the size of the piece and carried away a knowledge of the principles of land measurement. He was against carrying the study of geometry so far as to include the more complicated figures, on the ground that he could not see the use of them. Not that he was himself unfamiliar with them, but he said that they were enough to occupy a lifetime, to the complete exclusion of many other useful studies. ... He also recommended the study of arithmetic. But in this case as in the others he recommended avoidance of vain application; and invariably, whether theories or ascertained facts formed the subject of his conversation, he limited it to what was useful."

[@CreamColoredFlower]

Hi Rasmus :) Are you in touch with the "Supreme Good" at this moment? Also, I agree with you about Vervaeke - using the definitions of Plato - he is more alike to a sophist than a philosopher. Vervaeke is not yet ready to be talking about this, but he sure is doing his very best~

[@RasmusPallesen]

@@CreamColoredFlower The Supreme Good is like the sun. Experiencing it requires transcending your ego, not destroying it but just going beyond it, and enter a state of truly being. It is like leaving Plato's cave and seeing the shadows for what they are. You can go back into the cave and back to your previous way of life, but things will never be the same. Once you become aware of the Supreme Good you will have be naturally inclined to living with reason, and not with ambition or appetite. Rational activities and virtuous actions is a way of cultivating this awareness which urges you to live more virtuously, much like what Vervaeke calls an 'ecology of practices'. Of course, spending time on KZbin arguing semantics is what I would consider an irrational activity so it goes against my natural inclination, but its motivated by my love for my fellowman that wishes to guide him in the right direction, which sometimes clouds my judgement. I myself, no doubt, still have a lot to learn and grow. Spinoza: The Ethics "No one, who has a true idea, is ignorant that a true idea involves the highest certainty. For tohave a true idea is only another expression for knowing a thingperfectly, or as well as possible. No one, indeed, can doubt ofthis, unless he thinks that an idea is something lifeless, like apicture on a panel, and not a mode of thinking-namely, thevery act of understanding. And who, I ask, can know that heunderstands anything, unless he do first understand it? In otherwords, who can know that he is sure of a thing, unless he befirst sure of that thing? Further, what can there be more clear,and more certain, than a true idea as a standard of truth? Evenas light displays both itself and darkness, so is truth a standardboth of itself and of falsity. "Phaedrus by Plato " For a man must have intelligence of universals, and be able to proceed from the many particulars of sense to one conception of reason;-this is the recollection of those things which our soul once saw while following God-when regardless of that which we now call being she raised her head up towards the true being. And therefore the mind of the philosopher alone has wings; and this is just, for he is always, according to the measure of his abilities, clinging in recollection to those things in which God abides, and in beholding which He is what He is. And he who employs aright these memories is ever being initiated into perfect mysteries and alone becomes truly perfect. But, as he forgets earthly interests and is rapt in the divine, the vulgar deem him mad, and rebuke him; they do not see that he is inspired.... Socrates: But he who thinks that in the written word there is necessarily much which is not serious, and that neither poetry nor prose, spoken or written, is of any great value, if, like the compositions of the rhapsodes, they are only recited in order to be believed, and not with any view to criticism or instruction; and who thinks that even the best of writings are but a reminiscence of what we know, and that only in principles of justice and goodness and nobility taught and communicated orally for the sake of instruction and graven in the soul, which is the true way of writing, is there clearness and perfection and seriousness, and that such principles are a man's own and his legitimate offspring;-being, in the first place, the word which he finds in his own bosom; secondly, the brethren and descendants and relations of his others;-and who cares for them and no others-this is the right sort of man; and you and I, Phaedrus, would pray that we may become like him."

[@charleswang7225]

These two verses of Tao were taken out of context: the “wisdom” in ch19 as in ch 17 it was referring to “cleverness”(intellect or propositional knowing). And the rest of ch 56 is exactly against such kind of propositional tyranny. It’s sad you misinterpret Tao the exact opposite and impose propositional tyranny on Dr Vervaeke. My response only points out the problem and advise you to get into deep insights of Tao by understanding all 81 chapters as a *whole*, which amazingly coheres with the Neoplatonism that Dr Vervaeke is practicing. I Ching and Tao converge nicely with Axial Age wisdom traditions.