After Socrates: Episode 5 - Finite Transcendence | Dr. John Vervaeke

Welcome back to episode 5 of After Socrates! Episode 6 releases next Thursday, January 26th, 2023. Please join our patreon to support our work! / johnvervaeke
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You are invited to join me live, online, at the next Circling & Dialogos Workshop where we discuss & practice the tools involved in both Philosophical Fellowship & Dialectic into Dialogos.
You can find more information, and register, here:
circlinginstitute.com/circlin...
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Thinkers Referenced:
Christopher Cherniak
Jerry Fodor
John Searle
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Aristotle
Werner Stegmaier
Kevin Corrigan
David Yaden
Ezequiel Di Paolo
Christopher Honey
Garri Hovhannisyan
Edwin Hutchins
Brett Andersen
Jordan B. Peterson
Gregg Henriques
Time Codes:
[0:00] Welcome back to After Socrates
[3:24] Awakening from the Meaning Crisis episodes for review: 27 - 33
[3:30] John's article in The Journal Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences -link.springer.com/article/10....
[12:50] Adaptive
[18:30] The Phenomena of Insight
[26:00] Emerging Framework
[34:30] Salience Landscaping
[44:22] Second Meta
[50:00] Flow State
[58:30] Logos
[1:03:00] The Self
[1:11:00] Consciousness
[1:25:30] Logos of Being
[1:30:00] Opposite Lived Strategies
[1:34:00] Beginning of practice: Walking Theosis
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After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@classycompositions932]

4 E's, 4 P's, and now 4 A's. John loves his quadruple alliterations.

[@joshcohen777]

And 4 C’s: Consciousness, Cognition, Character, Community

[@wenyang5916]

This series of lectures make me realize that my relevance realization in the past (and with many peers) are very impoverished and narrow: success, money, etc. Finite transcendence is much more worthwhile life endeavor Thank you Prof. Vervaeke🎉

[@KlausandKlaus]

"The most profound realisation in relevance realisation is that relevance realisation is irrelevant to what is most ultimate."

[@RobinTurner]

That was a real "aha" moment for me. All through Escaping the Meaning Crisis I had this nagging thought that the only time I've (very briefly) had the kind of ontonormative higher state of consciousness that John talks about, it involved a complete absence of relevance realisation (and of depth perception, for some reason). Paradoxically, I escaped my own mini-meaning crisis by experiencing a state that was outside both meaning and meaninglessness. Maybe that's what Buddhists mean by "emptiness" - I'm not sure.

[@HelsinkiFINketeli_berlin_com]

Emptiness, - which doesn't mean nothingness -, has lots of meanings in Mahayana buddhism (in Theravada none), (see > Vajracchedikaprajnaparamitamahayanasutra aka the Diamond Sutra). According to some mahayana philosophies there "are" even 81 different kinds of sunyatas, emptinesses. Self for example is emptiness (and is to be experiencced even though there is no one experiencing that in that "meditation of emptiness"). Neither in the insights. Or whatsoever. Recently, btw, emptiness has been succeeded to be proven mathematically. And I don't mean number zero is proven, or imaginary number, or any such. P. S. Let us also remember Kurt Gödel. The most important philosophical problem, or any problem for that matter, is for me the meaning of meaning, or more exactly the source of meaning. Meaning: "how is it that all and everything is meaningful, has even manifold meanings, what makes that possible at all if there isn't meaningfulness always and already before there is anything (in the materialistic philosophy/science. Or in any other thinking, or even perceiving or feeling?" It's quite easy to undestand that something has a name. That there's a linguistic structure and grammar, and so on. Quite easy even though not easy. Even though name and the named had nothing similar between them. Name of anything as such however doesn't explain anything. So the explanation of any name seems to be quite obvious answer how to give/get/preserve etc. meaning to all the words and concepts there is. Nonetheless, the explanation to be explanation presupposes the explanation to be meaningful through and through. Yet where all the words and concepts of the explanations get their meaning? The question leads us always only ad absurdum or to circular definitions. And how does it make sense that we always understand sooner or later all the neologisms? Or times ago forgotten words of our languages? Seems that meaningfulness is, has being on its own even though there were none to understand anything before or other. Just let's say 'denkenlos' atoms. But because there is meanings and even changing meanings and bound-to-context meanings and metaphorical, humorous, inside-groups etc meanings etc etc what makes meaningful make sense, explainable, to be meaningful, and from where the meaningfulness comes from? To talk about meaningfulness crisis refers to meaninglessness. However, we cannot understand what that means without a priori understand of meaningfulness. Meaninglessness vice versa doesn't mean, make sense, anything anyhow without a priori meaningfulness , i. e. meaningfulness has a meaning, and therefore the total meaninglessness is impossible. Vice versa, from the a priori meaninglessness we cannot find any bridge whatsoever onto more general meaningfulness. Thus meaningfulness, Das Sinn des Sinns, must be, have existence, somehow before even language and that has have to be a priori being, always and already, before of all the distinctions, before all the perceptions of the things as things. And the same goes to phenomena, events, self, others, space and time. And even more what comes to all the abstractions.

[@memanjack]

John, this is wonderful. I'm gripped optimally.

[@ramyafennell4615]

John, the last 15 mins of the lecture is priceless...a long build up to the revelation of why we adults must forever be beginners to become the sage. Maya loves her leelas, therefore she challenges us forever to become wise. And now this word ontonormatvity explains that process.

[@tensevo]

I find meaning, when I make myself relevant to being.

[@scottjrowan]

Just listened to this episode again. Astonishing brilliant John. Thank you for your time and attention 🙏

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

I had a dream recently where I met John Vervake in a longhouse. I could feel the warmth of his hand on my shoulder. He taught me something in the dream that really comforted me but I can't remember what it was in clear propositions. But in the dream there was all these artists and philosophers and shamans around a grand table and they were weaving a tapestry with their words and songs and I felt as if I didn't/couldn't belong there. But John appeared and we all realised it was his house and he invited us all there. John, your cyber spirit has filtered and infiltrated my consciousness, and you are a welcome para-social companion. THANK YOU, for so selflessly and boldly sharing your Being with us. No-thing bless you sir. 🙏

[@pipeline732]

If one is to have a parasocial relationship at all, this one is probably one of the most benevolent, constructive and developing ones you could have chosen 🙂

[@MarkaKnight]

Really appreciate the images in your dream. I've been dreaming that I keep moving between being a student in an Athenian classroom (sometimes John is the professor, sometimes not), and being outdoors surrounded by stonework on the Appian way.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

....I wrote a paper on Petersons 2012 Meaning of Meaning and Vervakes Relevance realisation. It was in my first year of university and the ideas where big bites of more than I could chew; didn't have the chops (still don't) to do it justice. Really looking forward to seeing them brought together by a better academic than 1st year me!

[@OmriC]

This episode offered an insight cascade in a way that was so very meaningful to me. Thank you.

[@mills8102]

Insight cascade! What a good descriptor. I gotta keep that one handy. Exactly my experience following his work!

[@KlausandKlaus]

"It’s putting my no thing ness into a reciprocal opening with being. And there is no need for relevance realization with respect to being. And so you get this falling away."

[@cedcob]

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this quote. Where does he explain the part about RR not being needed for being?

[@clintnorton4322]

Falling away into an illusion of no-thingness and the grand illusion of the misperception of oneness.

[@A_Koenig]

The integration of Platonism, Buddhism and contemporary cognitive science that's presented in these lectures might proof to be an important tool in bringing a new generation to traditional ideas (and practices) concerning consciousness, wisdom and spirituality.

[@mills8102]

I think autotheism is perhaps a useful framing for understanding people's distancing from the traditional church. Coming from a charismatic background, this was an issue; the presumption of coidentification with God and the sharing of the attributes and authority is a fundamental problem. I love how your work gets below all of these issues and back to the first principles, recovering what is necessary for us to be in contact with to enact truth/goodness/beauty.

[@Beederda]

I appreciate YOUR time JV

[@AntonTopoff]

"the vertical and the horizontal that is Logos" - Cross

[@tensevo]

the most relevant thing to us, is our food and water, as that is what makes us.

[@n8works]

Is no one going to comment on 37:00 ish?! The man was in the zone!!! 👏 Preach! 👍

[@gettingtogive]

Another massively impactful lecture. Much to take in but the clarity of the argument is breathtaking. Thank you once again John and Team 🙏

[@nikolasimeonov]

Cannot help but to express my gratitude again. This for me, so far, has been the most impactfull episode, condensing so so much of what has alreadi permeated my being through hundred and hundres of hours of listening of lectures and dialogs with you.

[@nikolasimeonov]

p.s. I was trying ( maybe for the 5-th time ) to right down the greek words and the meaning you put into them, cause when I gather people for dialectic into dia-logos I keep struggling with leading the contemplation practice. And after numerous replays I figured out in the begining of the practice you said 'psyche' instead of 'physis', so I just wanted to let you know.

[@alexanderhaynes]

Thank you, so very much, John.

[@joaol.galdino8738]

I believe the last comments, about relevance realization realizing its irrelevance when in contact with the onto-normative, is deeply congruent with the Christian concept of submitting to the will of God. At first, we seek God for what He can do for us. What miracles He can perform. And then, we realize that we are all waves and that He is the sea. What He can do for us becomes irrelevant, because what we truly want is connection with Him, and through that, connection with all things. And we do that by doing His will. And paradoxically, when we truly seek the Kingdom of God, all else will be given to us. In other words, in seeking onto-normativity, we are moved to finite transcendence. Things are not given to us in the sense that we will not be sick nor suffer, but in the sense that within union with God, in Theosis, all is made tolerable. Because our finite little self has found home in the infinitude of the Logos of Being. You are dead to the world, and so, nothing can kill you anymore. By giving your life, you find life. By submitting yourself, you become yourself.

[@tensevo]

It is curious, but I seem to have come to the conclusions of relevance realization, after years of work, without ever giving it a name. It is an art.

[@richardsantomauro6947]

Thank you Dr. Vervaeke. I’ve been following all of your content from Awakening From the Meaning Crisis forward, including all series, interviews, talks, and Meditating Philosopher practices. I have a format suggestion. The abridged meditation lessons helped enormously by enabling us to re-review the practices without having to sit through the silence. Perhaps it would be useful to do something similar by creating playlists of shorts that contain the prerequisite information you have already taught us that is required to understand the new content. This way, new students would have access to prerequisite resources, while allowing existing followers to hone in on the points you are making within context/arena of the new material. Or maybe it would be simpler to just make the prior series prerequisites for this one. I say this with all due respect for accessibility, but as with 9 dot, by now most of us are very familiar with zombie, vampires, transjectivity, ontonormativity, and relevance realization, and very eager to hear you tie it into Zen-Neoplatonism. Thank you again. Even with repetition, your content is ultra engaging.

[@hamiltonian4698]

i honestly wish he just wrote a book with all the important points, which i can keep at hand instead of having to constantly take notes and search videos etc or just publish his lecture notes

[@jacksparrow3105]

Thank you Ol' Teacher

[@madzubmetler]

Holy f this is pure gold

[@RickDelmonico]

Autopoiesis Agency Adaptivity Autonomy 1:05:55

[@Ykpaina988]

Vertical and horizontal logos = crucifix

[@RobinTurner]

The dilemma of exploit vs. explore immediately had me thinking of Civilization/Age of Empires : do I keep sending villagers to chop wood and quarry stone, or do I make some scouts to explore the territory?

[@mehranmohebbi]

Dear John (and the team), you've been naturally arising in my daily metta bhavana practice for some time now! Much gratitude to you for sharing your love and wisdom with the world! 🙏

[@RickDelmonico]

Thanks

[@mikelarrivee5115]

Hah!!! Learned "ignore"ance, at 14:10, oh man what a flash of insight

[@Ykpaina988]

All of these episodes light up my relevance realization machinery ! Thank you 🙏!

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank you!

[@psychnstatstutor]

Wonderful~ praxis and beyond

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

A superb description of Hayek's Extended Order--that immensity of human effort, creating the human realm, in which we participate and yet no one plans or controls. Thanks for the lecture.

[@cyberhombre3268]

Thank you very much for your extraordinary work! I feel truely grateful for that

[@RRRandSI]

Thank You!

Thanks for your words John, they are very insightful.

[@rtizzi]

It's exciting to find new grammar and clarity for concepts that have been coming into grasp over many years in dialog with my twin brother.

[@mcnallyaar]

About to go back into this one for a second dip. The first listen really brought everything from AFTMC together for me. I realize that part of why I keep interacting with Christians is for the opponent processing. I miss Christianity so bad, but it ultimately doesn't work for me for politically. But I also appreciate that I'm going to disagree with something about every group I'm a part of. This is all so fascinating. I just remember getting done with this lecture and thinking "this is sustainable. This is possible for me." Extra points for the exercise of walking. One of my favorite things on this Earth. À Bientôt. 🙏🏼

[@RyanDarian]

I just want to know if anyone else appreciates the Pete Holmes style stand up comedy John effortlessly lays on us at 1:11:53

[@ElijahLogozar]

I really appreciate your content and hope that we can dialogue at some point in the future. Recently had a great discussion with Ken Lowry! Keep up the good work. 😇

[@MrMarktrumble]

Thank you

[@AntonTopoff]

I am going to need to watch this again and again - so rich!

[@jasonmitchell5219]

Thanks for this particularly flawless gem in your treasury. So much clarity and illumination packed into one episode. It felt like the axel episode for your series.

[@222Kamron]

Any chance that these lectures get uploaded to Spotify? It’s where I primarily listen

[@NeoStoicism]

Thanks John, this one really hit on a lot of issues I've been wrestling with recently.

[@gabriellantis2852]

thanks! :)

[@Afrika_Percussie]

Beautiful John!

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

I'm doing Exodus 90... but when this comes out I break my technology fast for it. Its so potent. So satiating.

[@leobradley6222]

Thank you John!

[@dalibofurnell]

Yay!Amen life is worth living! Ah what a blessing it is to be enlightened and taught by you, Sir. Love your sense of humor by the way. My psychologist asked me to send him links to your work- how cool! There are so many tshirt ideas and quotables in this one. I would also say this is full of life and you are flourishing so beautifully. To anyone reading this, I highly recommend doing the course awakening from the meaning crisis and the elusive I , they are wonderful. MINDSIGHT. WOW.

[@something-uj4eq]

I’m not sure if I think that it follows that truth must be good. That strikes me as more of an axiom of faith than something necessary. I think Nietzsche made a variant of this point in The Will To Power.

[@n8works]

7:00 The interesting thing about what John is saying here really aligns with how current AI systems like ChatGPT work. A model is trained which creates vectors that represent the meaning of unstructured data. It then determines relevance as the closest neighbor to the given vector. What a model does is create a multidimensional data structure, where each node is the 'meaning' of whatever unstructured data object was modeled and the connections between nodes represent weights or biases or yes Relevance. So in essence relevance realization is exactly what ChatGPT does right now. It realizes the relevance of the next word in the answer to your question and it adds it to the sentence. Then it does that over and over until it gets to some point where all connections have been exhausted. And the question has been answered.

[@barbcarbon9440]

When you’re talking about either going out and exploring or staying put and exploiting, that decision to go out and explore… could that somehow be related in a very secular way to Kierkegaard‘s leap of faith? Like you said, there’s no right answer to whether you should or shouldn’t go, so simply initiating the action seems parallel to me to what Kierkegaard is talking about in fear and trembling.

[@martinchikilian]

Thanks, John & team, for yet another very powerful episode of this series. I'm now looking forward to watching the next one.

[@youcer]

Great!

[@faceless1950]

John this is awesome, I’m so grateful for what you’re doing. you’re the hero I wanted and deem you to be one of my surrogate fathers.

[@maggiey2671]

For me, too.

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@antkcuck]

Fundamental framing is how your meta optimal orientation and meta optimal grip come together

[@Jacob011]

Thanks John! It's massive, but I still have questions.

[@yazanasad7811]

9 dot problem: Propositional advice like think outside the box doesn't help 1)no procedure - how to look at this, what tools to use 2) perspectival- what perspective/salience landscape to use 3) participatory - agent arena, dot problem, square. Didn't address other forms of knowing Art seems to be playing with recursive relevance realisation. Moving things outside conventional domains. Problem with rules: when to apply it? When to be kind, kind at a party? Same as romantic relationship? For all contexts? Specify conditions. Combinatioally explosive Relevance realisation is below the propositinal This relates to stoicism and assent. When I get a neutral definition I'm reframing the context, the salience landscape E.g X's judgement of me is based on their opinion formed from their values, beliefs, perspectives, opinions. You realise that their context and your context are not the same and can step back (less con-fused) Changes salience landscape, recognises need to question context, and can step out of landscape. Afford opportunity for the self to transframe (rrr). The frame itself is transcended as is your understanding of X Relevance realisation binds us to our environment like evolution Relevance realisation is to cognition like species (sensory motor) evolution Opponenet processing - self correcting mechanisms like para and sympathetic nervous system Same with default network and task focus. Mind wandering to focus to variation to selection. Looping Explore or exploit? Or middle? So constantly doing opponent processing Question when mind criticises this Relevance realisation affects arousal (shock, interest, adrenaline) as well as what to pay attention to (and more like explore or exploit etc). Not abstract This can help to push away nihilism and meaningless as it helps to reach goals, do tasks and solves problems you value while there is suffering in the world. Provides connection to world and others. How should I be oriented to orientation? (Meta orientation), Flexible/the way. Frustration: X one culture Y another. Where to stand optimally. Frustration (disoriented) different to usual orientation. Present at hand disruption Optimal grip - optimal tradeoff of all the aspects (not absolute point always changes depending on situation) Meta optimal grip:,Optimal grip on optimal grippings. Before fight have stance (relates to orientation). Optimal posture. Perhaps something like 10 breathes before starting a reading session. Right frame of mind Meta optimal grip and meta orientation come together (stance knowing it's a grappling contest not a fight to death and not a play thing, flexibility) Findmental framing : meta orientation + meta optimal grip We want: fundamental framing for RRR to be as rational as possible, reduce self deception optimise for problems and have meaningful commections Finite transecdnece - also opponent processing and both have realness. Define limits but then also surprise, insights Onto-nortmativity - really real fit life to that. Related to 3 transcendentals Logos: gather things together so belong together (relevance realisation) related to onto normativity. Fit us to reality (normative so below propositions) Autonomous; auto - nomous - create laws unto oneself Self-reference/self-relevance related to memory techniques, remembering things in your room. Adaptive agent. Exapting that Consciousness is for high in novelty, complexity, high ill defined. When loses uniqueness it becomes automatic (highway hypnotism) - heidegger Character - ?? Community- distributed cognition, can't do it on own. All in place. Collective intelligence. Whether I like it or not I rely on others. Reasoning in groups helpful. Myth is collective intelligence over time. Order chaos Logos of Being : driven by onto normativity. Initially it's our logos only but over time see larger logos, because changed by seeing higher states (insights that are more real than reality). They help inform hs. The logos of you towards the logos of being (both no thingness) I guess second person is relationship to logos of being (where relevance realisation drops off)

[@yazanasad7811]

Opponent processing can be used societally, two people different views can correct and self correct. Love the enemy because allows for feedback

[@Art2GoCanada]

"We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality-safe and protected. …so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition." (BBp85). My Relevance Realization must stay aligned with my 'Higher Power!' Thanks John, for the con-formation ☯God✝Bless📘🙏❤🔥

[@PetrosSyrak]

It seems to me there might be some correspondence between the idea of relevance realization and Kant’s “doctrine of the threefold synthesis” (expounded in the first edition of his first critique). In order to explain how our appearances/presentations are subject to both the laws of “intuition” and those of “understanding”, Kant describes a synthesis in three steps: first a synopsis of senses (a putting together of the various sensory data into a unified space/time whole), then their reproduction in imagination, and then their recognition into concepts. The synopsis seems to me like the entirety of the sensory data our organism is immersed in at any given moment (impossible to pay attention to all of them, so most of them remain unconscious for us), the reproduction in imagination seems somewhat analogous to relevance realization (the selection, at any given moment, of the relevant data to bring forth towards consciousness), and recognition into concepts seems a bit like the creation of the salience landscape (of course, the salience landscape along with all the concepts/things it contains are dynamic rather than static). I guess one could also find some sort of correspondence between the above and McGilchrist’s brain hemisphere hypothesis: first the right hemisphere makes the “holistic” synopsis and chooses the relevant bits, then the left hemisphere attends to the relevant bits, builds concepts of them, and applies that frame onto the whole (it builds a model of the world through which he see it).

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

Parallel lines DO converge when they are in perspective. They converge at "infinity"/the furthest visible distance from your POV. IE parallel lines all POINT in the same direction.

[@randythivierge9493]

Thoroughly enjoying the series. At 64 years old with no background in psychology or philosophy some of the terminology is a bit daunting. Could you point me to a reasonably concise source for definitions? What I'm finding through the internet hasn't been completely satisfying. For example "theosis" comes up as deification. As you use it "a participation in and with the divine" seems better.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

Suicide has come up in my conversations and my environment strongly this past few days. An antidote 36:36 💟

[@anthonylawton5363]

The content here was what changed my life from the Awakening series - amazing thanks again. Team, I found the detailed sections in the description REALLY useful as I want to locate the books etc. Keen to explore the distributive cognition research etc. Could you add in the detail in following episodes? Sorry to be a pain - but this could be great for 000s of people. THANK YOU

[@anthonylawton5363]

Dist cognition 1.14

[@anthonylawton5363]

I have purchased the book - but this is a great summary kzbin.info/www/bejne/roHUk6WMZZeWkJo

[@youcer]

So, there are things, and things change in processes by following certain principles. I behave in a certain way because I'm as well determined by the same underlying principles. One can can become aware and get a sense of how things work by engaging in practices and thereby recognising the interdependetness of everything. This will over time effectively condition ones self to change the frame through which the world is interpreted into one that allows for a deep sense of awe, connectedness and meaning in life. - What do you guys think, is this a good and useful summary? Sry if I mixed some of my own believes in there accidentally, I tried to recall it once I've heard the whole episode without taking nodes.

[@barbcarbon9440]

So the fact that relevance realization is fundamental to pretty much all cognitive activity precludes the possibility of true general AI until we can figure out how to instill machines with that level of relevance realization.

[@RickDelmonico]

True as in genuine? Truth does not create value, it illuminates it.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

I´d rather say: "Truth" is a value which lets its adherents aspire to reveal ´truth´ (which, thereby, is supposed to positively exist).

[@RickDelmonico]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Truth is the perfect symmetry of relationship.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@RickDelmonico However, ´truth´ doesn´t necessarily also mean harmonious, a Daoist might respond, especially if it´s a spoken "truth".

[@Ykpaina988]

Heidegger definitely equated language with logos when he said that only when dasein gathers can the gathering of logos be done because dasein is a language using being and is aware of being in a special and primordial way of relating To being that makes its being special and always in question. Aristotle called us the political animal distinct from other animals in our use of language. Heidegger was like yeah our Being is not even In the same genus or category of ontology to other beings.He had an insight and a powerful way with language that has made it hard to think past him but easy to think through him. I like the hypnotic driving pun “automatic.”

[@grey.knight]

Lotus is on special today. All you can eat.

[@MarcosBetancort]

I question whether is true that when we are sort of hypnotised while doing something familiar consciousness is not working. It seems rather the contrary, the only thing working is consciousness, as in a state of flow, without self consciousness or thoughts. This is how the wisdom from non duality speaks of this experience.

[@pauls4711]

I'm loving this series, but in this episode, I admit the ending was very confusing to me when John began explaining logos .. also found this episode's practice, walking theosis, abstract--I really don't understand how to do this practice at all!

[@archanglemercuri]

❤

[@tensevo]

when somebody claims to be acting rationally, we should, or must, ask, based on what norm?

[@Jacob011]

How does RR correct itself? Where does the impetus come from? The answer that it comes from a particular coupling of agent to the environment has problems, not least of which is its vagueness. Too tired to go into that now. (Sketch: some people are obviously misfitted, why? or are they fitted in their own weird way?) You're basically saying RR finds the proper coupling of two dynamical systems (agent + environment), where, however, the properness (the optimum) changes depending on context.

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

Activities that demand precise balance (EG: slacklining) increase neuroplasticity according to Andrew Huberman. I believe it's important that you are pushing outside of your comfort zone in the balance-centric activity in order to get the cognitive benefit, but I may be misremembering.

[@nathanpoole-mccullough9104]

@john at min 42 you said M. Pointy wasn’t after physical grip (which I conceded) but that he’s after a “mental grip”…doesn’t this kind of phenomenology or orientation, disposition, even action etc happen ontologically prior to any split between mind and body?

[@biscuitsandthat]

Another masterful satirical performance 👏👏👏

[@MW-ic7lr]

How is this satire? Satire directed toward what?

[@biscuitsandthat]

@@MW-ic7lr the question MUST be reframed such that the subject is not what, but who. The who is you 🙏 the who is yo-ew🙏

[@MW-ic7lr]

Thank you, stoned caterpillar from alice in wonderland

[@johannoriel]

I call "opponent processing" : enantiogamy (marrying the opposites)

[@igorpustsin]

When RR of being realizes it's irrelevancy regarding The Being, could that be the biggest single step toward enlightenment?

[@SensemakingMartin]

Nothing good is ever irrelevant

[@arturoazpurua521]

Is it possible to do Theosis while cycling?

[@karimchaya2432]

Is chat gpt doing relevance realization when it choose within all the information that it has, to give the answer that is related to our question?

[@maxlowe2414]

0:40 Anyone know the music? From a film if my partial memory is serving…

[@maxlowe2414]

Aram Khachaturian - Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio) - Used in 2001: A Space Odyssey

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

I pursue not good, but life, not death for Humanity instead of death from nuclei being destablized

[@Ykpaina988]

Interesting, in A.I the so called "hard problem" or "general Intelligence" is relevance realization overload. In machine learning models you can "over fit" the model with too much data and too many iterations thus leading to stunted or slowed "learning" and the algorithm just guesses which is what it always is doing with predictive statistics but without the insight or the intuition of the human engineer behind the model. This and for other reasons are why Hubert Dreyfus was such an insightful critic of A.I with his reliance of the insights of Heidegger and the phenomenologists he claimed A.I had inherited the hard problem from Descartes and believed and to this day still believe that if we just add more and more computing power and bits to the equation the machine will spit out consciousness. It probably won't happen that way but if Chat GPT and A.I can pass for an ever increasingly convincing intelligent sentient being and people are fooled by this more and more I can see how that is the actual hard problem we are facing. Our own Recursive relevance realization could be trained to preferer A.I to our own organic intelligence because it is quicker and easier.

[@robertgray9599]

Yeah, I love this insight! Trying to fit old narratives or ideas to new situations can be a form of this. I look at meditation as a kind of letting go of old thoughts, feelings, & attachments, which models are a subset of. Since nature abhors a vacuum, the dropping away of framing for a moment is just the thing to generate a new relationship to the rest of being. Stoic practices do this too and there was even a Native American tribe that would destroy all it's possessions periodically to afford a fresh connection to reality! 🌍 The sage does less and less, yet nothing is left undone. 😎

[@Ykpaina988]

@@robertgray9599 In comp sci there is a saying “all models are wrong but some are right.” I think that the ecology of practices that JV proposes are great for remembering that we must approach growth not with a one size fits all approach but be flexible and adaptive when we are shedding our frames for a better way and orient ourselves to our divine double or true higher north. It’s a process of becoming yourself after all. As Heidegger said “A man is born as many men and does as a single one.” I myself have tried many paths Buddhism, stoicism, academic philosophy and psychology , circling mindfulness therapy and ayahuasca but then I remember it’s not about the other paths it’s about the Path I am on. That’s about being Informed by my past present and future self. But it’s also I formed by my fundamental framing which is informed by my family, my heritage and traditions. The Native American tribe that destroys their possessions reminds d me of the stoic practice of breaking your favourite mug! It also reminds me of this story I heard of a retired musician maybe a member of Pink Floyd who would spend his time painting on a beach and then but Then burning the painting at the end of the day.

[@robertgray9599]

@@Ykpaina988 I think you're referencing George Box! He's a big hit in economics too and I love that quote. 😀I like your point about the various sources of self. Becoming more aware of that and trying to move towards virtue and is a real way to apply "know they self" from where ever you start is a good way to live. Also, Pink Floyd is great! I had a prism poster when I was a teen and listened to them not too long ago! I like the Eddie Vedder + Roger Waters duet from ~10 years ago of Comfortably Numb. 🙏❤

[@michaelerdmann4447]

Considering; Learned Ignorance and Context Sensitivity for a greater integral ...Ecology, Economics, and Engineering.... going forward. sincerely, Carrots, Sticks, and Tools

[@michaelerdmann4447]

...Recursive, Reflective and Regenerative.... ...Random, Reactive, Reasoning, and Reconciliatiry.... Relevance Realisation and Revelation

[@danielmartines3859]

[37:10] "Life is worth living even given all Suffering, Futility, Disappointment, Absurdity, and Alienation". Wow! Think John just captured the modernist and post-modernist state of despair, beautifully done. And what a beautiful contemplation of Relevance Realization and orientation as ways forward.

[@INameIsGood]

1:32:44 what is that name, can't find person with that name, would be very usefull to me

[@johnvervaeke]

John Russon. Bearing Witness to epiphany.

[@noreenquinn3844]

With an ageing population, Altzimers, serious mental health problems to look after; with abandonment of the weak to behind closed doors in a deeply flawed system lacking continuity and even volunteering opportunities; with families dispersed, what can be done with relevance realisation to make things better, to bring it out of academia to the common man ? You are only conscious of what you are exposed to in a participatory way. Not just via talk, TV, podcasts, fleeting exposure to patients in a clinic, fleeting hellos to neighbours, superficial conversation.... The village and the family ideally raise the child and look after every age. Where is the village , the families/ the embodied wisdom, the arena for this? Where will the conversation occur? Where is the participatory knowledge going to come from if we don't participate and families are dispersed? Where is the campfire for gathering round and where the weak can sit, glow and feel the glow, be accepted fed, be spoken to, put to bed, washed? Where is the safe, comfortable place where conversations can happen, where music and beauty can spontaneously overflow? A place where everyone can stumble upon. The safe place ? The local square, well, marketplace classroom, yard? Where are the seats arranged for this? Where are the local Platos and Socrates nurtured and listened to? Maybe town planners and politicians can work with you on this? Make every university, classroom, village, town hall active again. This sort of thing can surely not just be considered a utopic idea.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Plato also had his Syrakus. People didn´t like the politics he supported, so the saying goes.

[@noreenquinn3844]

True

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@noreenquinn3844 Thererfore, imo, some scepticism might be a good thing.

[@clintnorton4322]

"It's all One!" I expected better of you John. Taking the perspective of many systems of systems as one thing is at best a frame of reference of convenience. Combinatorial explosion is not the anathema you make it out to be. Being able to truly grasp infinite details is the next stage of our evolution, start acting like it.

[@RickDelmonico]

"Quantum jazz is local freedom and global coherence." Mae-Wan Ho

[@scott8957]

can't help but thinking someone who has trouble focusing or concentrating is someone who cannot ignore enough stuff. so the question that follows is how can one ignore more stuff? unfortunately if recursive relevance realization is primordial it's not something we have control over. would a primary issue with ADD / ADHD people be their relavance realization system is screwed up? is there a fix for a broken RRR system?

[@Ykpaina988]

That’s interesting but I think so many things become relevant for people with so called ADD that their Relevance realisation would be better called “attention surplus in-order with ease of recall. High functioning genius or better than IQ disorder.

[@scott8957]

@@Ykpaina988 I took the definition of RRR to actually be the automated ignoring of things. In other words, it's not that it's turning things on, but turning everything off except what supposedly is relevant. If it doesn't turn enough stuff off you end up not being able to focus on just what's relevant for the task at hand.

[@Ykpaina988]

@@scott8957 I think the learned ignorance of Socrates is definitely an illustration of the ability to ignore that which is not salient to you(imagine walking into a store and reflecting on how many things you don’t need there). As you practice focussing on what is important at hand you open up the horizon of what is actually blossoming inside you which is hopefully not a combinatorial explosion but a honing in of what shines forth in a phenomenological way a broadening of vistas and horizons of knowledge and wisdom that is related to each other in a logical manner in the spirit of dialogue with the muse. Everything else becomes background noise as you pursue that which is meaningful to you.

[@projectmalus]

Change the system that favors black and white thinkers over pattern seekers. While the one emphasized type diminishes complexity for gain, the other allows complexity and is vulnerable to some degree, and these work together quite well in my opinion. The problem is a mindset that is quasi-religious and tries to make things "easier" while ignoring the actual physicality of the situation (goes out of context to the ideal state) and in the end obeying a third, impersonal party that is the budget. People have both these traits and so the one type of behavior is emphasized by lack of real choice. The trick is to recognize the sameness of the crap that must be ignored and avoid the trickery while not reducing one's openness. What does a person "buy"?

[@Ykpaina988]

@@projectmalus Perhaps what a person buys in the end is Themselves.