After Socrates: Episode 3 - Dialectic into Dia-logos | Dr. John Vervaeke

Welcome back to episode 3 of After Socrates! Episode 4 releases next Thursday, January 19th, 2023. Please join our patreon to support our work! / johnvervaeke
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You are invited to join me live, online, at the next Circling & Dialogos Workshop where we discuss & practice the tools involved in both Philosophical Fellowship & Dialectic into Dialogos.
You can find more information, and register, here:
circlinginstitute.com/circlin...
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Books Referenced:
Dialectic and Dialogue: Plato's Practice of Philosophical Inquiry - amzn.to/3QzeW7i
New Perspectives on Platonic Dialectic A Philosophy of Inquiry - amzn.to/3ird3wJ
Thinkers Referenced:
Pierre Hadot
Plotinus
Francisco J. Gonzalez
Aristotle
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Gilbert Ryle
James J. Gibson
Stanley Rosen
Wallace Matson
Vasilis Politis
Augustine of Hippo
Graham Priest
Werner Stegmaier
Eric Sanday
James H. Austin
Show Notes:
[0:00] Intro
[9:24] Pierre Hadot was a French philosopher and historian of philosophy specializing in ancient philosophy, particularly Neoplatonism.
[14:56] Plotinus c. 204/5 - 270 CE. A philosopher of the Hellenistic tradition, born and raised in Roman Egypt. Plotinus is regarded by modern scholarship as the founder of Neoplatonism.
[16:25] "In the end, I'm not concerned ultimately about historical accuracy. I'm concerned about affording people the ability to practice a way of life."
[19:27] • Rationality and ritual... - Link to Invited talk at Cambridge.
[23:25] Semantic Memory - General knowledge about the world: e.g., facts, ideas, and other concept-based knowledge unrelated to specific experiences.
[24:41] Procedural memory - a type of implicit memory involved in the performance of different actions and skills: the memory of how to do certain things.
[26:07] Perspectival Knowing - Refers to knowing via embodied perception. It consists of seeing and experiencing the world from within a certain state or place of consciousness.
[28:29] Episodic memory - The memory of everyday events that can be explicitly stated. It is the collection of past personal experiences that occurred at particular times and places.
[30:28] ver·i·si·mil·i·tude - the appearance or semblance of truth; genuineness; authenticity.
[31:02] Propositional knowing has to do with our reasoning capacity (language and inference). Procedural knowing relates to our basic skills and cognition (sensory-motor interaction). Perspectival knowing is about embodied consciousness (salience landscaping).
[32:45] The Fourth Kind of Knowing: Participatory Knowing. Finding agency within an agent-arena relationship; by being fitted to the arena, the agent is able to determine the consequences of behavior and alter that behavior to bring about the desired consequences.
[38:39] James Jerome Gibson (1904 - 1979). An American psychologist considered to be one of the most important contributors to the field of visual perception.
[45:04] Stanley Rosen (1929-2014). One of the central themes of his work is the claim that the extraordinary discourses of philosophy have no other basis than the intelligent understanding of the features of ordinary life or human existence.
[49.37] Wallace Matson (1921-2012). An American professor of philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley. He is known for his works on the existence of God.
[52:17] Ep. 17 - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - Gnosis and Existential Inertia: • Ep. 17 - Awakening fro...
[1:01:27] Episode #4 Awakening from the Meaning Crisis: • Ep. 4 - Awakening from...
[1:06:46] Vasilis Politis (1963-) is a Greek philosopher and Associate Professor of Philosophy at Trinity College Dublin. He is known for his expertise on Plato and Aristotle. (Dialectic and the Ability to Orientate Ourselves)
[1:12:55] Graham Priest (born 1948) Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at the CUNY Graduate Center. He is known for his defense of dialetheism, his in-depth analyses of the logical paradoxes and his many writings related to paraconsistent and other non-classical logics.
[1:27:13] The Forms: The forms are something like fundamental principles of intelligibility and of being. The forms are the principles by which things "Are" and by which they are known or knowable by us.
[1:32:33] Beginning of the practice.
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After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@meaningwarrior7330]

John your killing us with three bomb vids out on the same day. We need a week to process each 😅

[@HigoWapsico]

True that, but what a fantastic treat....

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Killing us with the false religion of dialogos explained below.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXerpGOKeciGY5I

[@RonaldBradycptgmpy]

If I may take the time to write a rather long, thank you: I was taught Plato by a retired philosophy, professor, who fell on some hard times. I would buy him lunch, he would walk me through the principle dialogues of Plato. that year had me fall in love with philosophy. Over the coming years, I would apply to seminary, be denied, and I would have to find a new path in life. When I took up the study of philosophy as an undergraduate, I found out very quickly that things had given way to the analytic tradition, some thing that felt like it wasn’t too concerned with how to live, far less alive than the philosophy that I had come to know. But, I found I could make a living tutoring, various subjects in the humanities, because of that background. But for the longest time, I had thought the philosophy that I loved was dead. Thanks to this series, I remember why I fell in love with it in the first place… And I am re-learning the very fact that philosophy, in this sentence is utterly and completely , and embodied to spiritual practice. Thank you for your work and thank you for this series, I look forward to reading and learning, along with everyone else, and seeing where this road leads, hopefully a little closer to socrates than when I started.

[@janthonycologero9206]

Amen

[@mcnallyaar]

🙏

[@badreddine.elfejer]

These series are an existential shelter

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

"Are you willing to take the risk?" - a resounding "NO" from Tracy in Wales... Brilliant work, John.

[@toddcarricato4667]

When I went to Coles to pick up a copy of Moby Dick on Vervaeke’s recommendation to read it as commentary on the meta crisis (episode 25), I also looked for a collection of the Dialogues. I couldn’t find them so I asked the clerk to check their computer. She said they didn’t have anything by Plato. I thought that was impossible so I asked to see the screen … she had ‘playdoh’ in the search field - I’m not sure if Vervaeke would’ve laughed or cried.

[@lievenyperman9363]

Ah Playdoh, the famous pupil of Sockrattease, both truly inspiring figures from Ancient Grease.

[@toddcarricato4667]

Hilarious. Thank you. Your reply is the first I’ve ever received. I’m embarrassed to say what a thrill it is. Screw Descartes’ cogito - “I got a reply therefore I am.”

[@lievenyperman9363]

@@toddcarricato4667 ​ "There's a victory, and defeat; the first and best of victories, the lowest and worst of defeats which each man gains or sustains at the hands not of another, but of himself." - Playdoh -

[@generaltheoryofnothing]

🤣priceless!

[@CamelliaYang]

Thank you Professor Vervaeke! Two years ago, I joined the Rebel Wisdom and listened to your lecture there, but I didn't know what you were talking about. Last year, I finished watching your lectures on the meaning crisis but still got confused. Recently, I got to listen to the conversation between you and JBP and got at least 50% of the concept you guys bringing up. Now I'm learning this series and hopefully, with practice, I could be able to understand your works better!

[@toddcarricato4667]

I love the way John is proceeding slowly and carefully, and sometimes quietly … combined with the timely angle shot cuts, it creates the effect that we are out on the trail as it were and tracking Socrates step by step.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

I truly wish that Johns words speak to others as as much as they speak to me ...thank you John so much. I'm with you

[@popescuraluca7449]

It s happening that all John is speaking about, I am instantly filter through my life experience. I realise what s missing through my understanding. Thank you, John Vervaeke.

[@gingerlivingston6692]

I am so excited about this series. Thank you to all involved.

[@jmholthuysen]

Brilliant. This shines brilliantly.

[@joecoll5472]

Best of luck with the series JV. Much love

[@RubensteinRNerisma]

Fascinating lesson here Dr. Vervaeke. I'm almost speechless, but thankfully not fully. I do have a comment about this. Something that's puzzled me for a long time now in my own personal quest after Socrates. About wisdom, and the metaxy that it represents in and of itself. And so, radical orientation naturally, I think, solves the subjectivity and objectivity that Socrates seems to have disputed against concerning courage. It also seems clear that Socrates despite not "knowing" the answer to this dispute, "knew" that dialectic with the Logos is crucial to find a possible answer for something as paradoxical as his meaning of a virtue. Now of course I just started your series and have much to go along the way, and read, without a doubt, but here is my particular proposition on this dispute that I don't often find people like yourself and Jordan Peterson, whom I admire a lot, actually speak of. And this is pertaining to the "wonder" that Socrates spoke of in pursuit of wisdom to gain virtue. To simply start, rather than "wonder", I think possibility or possibilities, or with the "perspective" of quantum physics, the potentiality of wisdom could help further answer the phenomenon of virtue. And now, with the necessary Gnosis involved with humans, I find an aporia in potentiality within wisdom itself, due to our emotionality, which fluctuates moment to moment. This aporia essentially is that the potential within wisdom due to our emotions actually results in only 2 possible options. 1) A positive emotion associated with potential, so a positive potential, hopeful potential, dare I say "faithful" potential of something pertaining to wisdom. 2) A negative emotion associated with potential, so a negative potential, doubtful potential, dare I say a "devil-ish" potential. Which I believe can more simply be asked in dialectic with the Logos by asking, "Well, what if...?" I find that from answering that question, as a person, based on their emotionality, in the moment, pertaining to a possibility can never ultimately be "truly" answered, considering that the answer could then change in another moment, under different emotional circumstances. As in the case for honesty towards a child, lover, co-worker etc. And so again, I'm very early into your series, and this was a ramble lol. But this is all fascinating stuff for me too and I would love to at least, potentially lol, receive a hint on this digital "whiteboard" as you have for your stepson in the past Dr. Vervaeke, I would be beyond appreciative! Cheers!

[@DaveTheTurd]

Im going to need to watch this particular episode many times... It is at once daunting and liberating. Thank you. I'm glad I found your content.

[@mollieisaacson3689]

John! This episode is phenomenal. You know I always wanted to be a Delphic Oracle when I grew up. Delphic knowing is different than Socratic knowing. Both have salience but the Socratic way unifies and reframes!

[@hintergrundfisch]

I loved the part about Parmenides and Graham Priest. It feels to me like it ties in nicely with Alfred North Whiteheads process ontology. Also, the explaination of the four kinds of knowing was amazing (especially the part about what makes participatory knowledge so special).

[@Andrew.baltazar]

I've had to listen to these lectures at 1.25x It's like there's a cave in my head that captures John's words in through my ear and it echos in my head for a little while. As more ideas quickly enter the cave they form a cacophony and insights spring. But if said too slowly, no matter the depth of the words, the sounds dissipate through the vents as quickly as they arrived - Listening becomes merely an act of translation (with a sense of understanding) rather than being pulled into the mind of another. When I can start to see what you are seeing. Weirdly, when I changed the speed to 1.25X, all manner of insights arrived. At normal speed, nothing.

[@janthonycologero9206]

I watched and listened multiple times and get more from it each time. Lately I'm seeing everything through the lens of opponent processing, asking myself what spectrum do things lie on and what would be at the other end of the pendulum. 🤯 thank you John for all the time and love you're putting into this. It really shines through beautifully. Yeah, those words again 🤣🍄💚✌🏼

[@mikemcgowan7946]

45:46 strongly parallels Iain McGilchrist's hemisphere hypothesis: "the propositional [LH] has a role, but that role should ultimately be in service to the non-propositional [RH]"

[@AnAlgernon]

27:40 on episodic memory - When I was doing white water kayaking... we'd eddy out all day. Finding a course thru the river to some quiet spiral of current behind a rock standing against the current. Later that day, while driving home, there was a distinct notion of eddying out behind cars on the highway! The rushing air was the river's current... My tired mind was trying to exapt my earlier actions and apply them to the present moment. So much so, that I found myself leaning into my turns as I drove home. My "types of memory" interact constantly without my explicit intent.

[@AdielShnior]

I want to learn to speek vevaekish. I want to speek vervaekish with people every day.

[@bogslammer2578]

Had my first experience of spiritual midwifery today 😂. Just subconciously started talking Socratically with someone i know and gave them a valuable insight. I hope to continue this practice, and owe you a sincere debt of gratitude for opening up a new world for me and those around me. Keep up the good work John, I will try to turn others I know towards your content.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

Thank you, John, this wasn’t a hit and not even a home run. It was a grand slam. This episode is worthy of multiple reruns. It will be interesting how you’ll top this with you’re following episodes. 🙏

[@jefflanahan8812]

Aporia: yet another example of an important word, metaphorical to some kind of physical movement. It comes from "a-" (not, or without) + "poros" (passage). Aporia is an arrival at a state of impasse; one is stuck, cannot find a way through the current situation. Often we use metaphor as a bridge to cross an otherwise impassable gulf, so that a new concept can be explained in a way we already understand. But aporia is more of a sense of being somehow blocked from making progress, bogged down in a thick mud, or drowning, in need of rescue by some other means. My initial thought for some reason was of Moses in Exodus. His people reach a state of impasse at the red sea, where he, in conjunction with the Lord separates the waters so the Jews can gain passage. I was blown away to discover that the Hebrew for Moses (Moshe) means to "un-immerse", as in, save from drowning. Moshe was named as such by the Pharaoh's daughter who discovered him as a baby at the riverbank and "drew him out of the water", so it makes sense. But Moses in fact saves his people from drowning (metaphorically, in Egyptian tyranny) by leading them through an impasse. It seems no coincidence either that Moses was a shepherd; prophets or saviors in these kinds of myths often are. A shepherd has great concern for his flock, and also guides the flock. A shepherd leads the flock onto the proper path, showing them the way. Interesting again to note that the "poros" from "aporia", means journey, passage, or, way. It just fascinates me to find these linkages between various separate concepts of our shared cultural heritage. Hopefully it's not too big a reach.

[@abbasalchemist]

Excellently stated. Aporia, unfortunately losing that initial meaning of complete sense of helplessness and disorientation and becoming intellectualized as a philosophical or logical "problem" to be resolved.

[@CreamColoredFlower]

Hi Jeff (and anyone reading)! I hope you don't mind an alternative understanding of Aporia. Here it is: A priestess named Diotima, whom younger Socrates met and was taught by, told Socrates a myth. The myth is about Poros (=Resourcefulness/Satiety/Plentifulness) and Penia (=Poverty/Unsatiety/Lack), and how they had a child named Eros. So this Eros is a half-god, which is why we as humans are able to interact with Eros, and why Eros is able to interact with full-gods. This Eros is born on the birth day of Aphrodite (Beauty). In this sense, Aporia can be understood as "UnSatisfied" or "Without resources" or even "Poverty" and "Lack", which is the same as "Penia" OR the same as "Eros". As a midwife, Socrates wants people to have an offspring of a half-divine nature, so it is likelier that "Aporia" refers to "Eros" which is that offspring that is able to find Beauty. What you are stating is not wrong as it is exactly what Socrates is doing to people - he is trapping them. In one dialogue he gets angry as the person being trapped does not want to admit to having had his "passage" blocked, which may be understood as conceit perhaps. He is however happy if the person becomes humile enough to admit to this aporia, and so they meet the limit of their "knowledge" together - it is a meeting which allows them to understand that they do not really know what at first they thought they knew. Now, at this point, there is a chance to deliver Eros, because they will be in awe of the beauty - of Socrates teachings. The awe occurs because the Eros in them will recognize this beauty and it is the first contact with something alike to true knowledge. If it so happens that Eros recognizes this, then the parent of Eros (Socrates-dialogue partner) will begin chasing beauty, because Eros wants to be Unlacking (Poros) but will always admit to Lack (Penia). The person will be humile in the face of true beauty and always seeking it, and if the person follows through, then he will find divine happiness in life but it can only happen through Eros. The reason Eros is needed is because he wants the other person to start his journey as a philosopher - a lover of wisdom. A lover of wisdom is alike to a lover of wine: loving all wines and all wisdoms alike without preferential treatment. And so, Diotima tells Socrates that Eros will learn about all the beauties of the world, but will start from simple forms of beauty - Eros can however come to love all beauty and that is when divine happiness has been achieved. Extra notes: -Socrates also in some dialogue admits that they offspring may as well suffer from miscarriage. This would be the normal case, while the other is the exception. -Divine happiness can not be understood by "human" means, which is why Eros is needed. It is that happiness that allows Socrates to accept death rather than to betray himself knowingly, and to live life as a poor person without a care about material things. If one is truly happy, one is not in need of anything, because one will be rich in happiness. Take care :) ---Edit--- I came back to thank you for your understanding, and decided that perhaps, we may find some beauty in a combined interpretation because there is beauty in the understanding you shared ♥ So, perhaps, if we understand it as you suggested that it is of being a state of not having a passage, while also admitting to not having it. This is us being stuck and realizing that our understanding is limited and perhaps only conceited until we get the full picture - the map of all possible passages, and simultaneous a passage truly worth pursuing despite its difficulties. Can we recognize this path that is unlike all the other paths of understanding, and find one that take account of all beauties of the world? It sounds tricky, but exciting. Anyhow, do read the story of Poria and Penia - it is instructions told through a story. The point of the story is to align the person towards the beautiful passage. Once again, take care :)

[@jefflanahan8812]

@@CreamColoredFlower Thank you for your insightful response! As you conclude, people must be aligned "towards the beautiful passage". Using the example (if I have understood it properly) of Poros & Penia, this is not done by unfettered wealth and riches, nor is it done by having excess deficiency and poverty. Rather, the beautiful path is one that contains some smooth sailing, as well as some obstacles. The beautiful path is perhaps analogous to a meandering river. To much freedom of movement never gives you a river at all, but just water randomly careening about. But a total and complete blockage of the path constitutes a dam that will turn the river into a lake. Rather, it is the meandering nature of water placed into a path with some degree of freedom and some degree of obstacle, that is the most beautiful river. It has become evident to me through listening to JBP & Vervaeke that it is in fact the encounters we have with obstacles in our path that generate the kinds of systemic insights that propel us through impasses. Well placed obstacles help us get into the flow state because an easy path, is a boring path and a path with insurmountable challenge is a dead end. Perhaps humility is necessary for realizing when an obstacle is not insurmountable. If we want to be on the path to wisdom, and we think we know everything, an encounter with the unknown would be quite the jolt of reality. Perhaps it would throw you off the path entirely. But to be properly humiliated, that is, realize you have more to learn, perhaps the obstacle can be conceived as, surmountable-if-the-proper-knowledge-is-attained, which shouldn't be a particularly unpleasant undertaking, given the path to wisdom is in the first place the attempted continual attainment of knowledge.

[@CreamColoredFlower]

@@jefflanahan8812 Oh, nice, Jeff :) I really like how you made the story into something native to your own understanding. It is an excellent retake. I can "see" or imagine your conceptualization - didn't expect such a beautiful effort. This might come off as condescending, but it is really not meant as such. I just want you to consider something: Both JBP and Vervaeke have yet to see "god". They have yet to see the source of said river/passage. What I mean is that you can't rely on them if you are seeking that because they don't know (yet). Still though, there are people who pretend to have seen "god" for profit - neither JBP and Vervaeke have done so. It doesn't mean that what they teach isn't valueable and immensely interesting. I listen to both personally just out of curiousity, but knowingly that they don't know. Either way, Vervaeke is probably closer than JBP, but JBP is generally better at getting "human nature" right even though he seems to be having anger issues at the moment. JBP's lectures are gold though :) I am inspired by you to make another re-conceptualization as a gift to you, and if you'd like, you can re-iterate the story in your terms but you don't have to if you don't want to. What if Eros is the grandchild of Beauty, and as such Eros is inspiration-itself or animation-itself? Eros, with the parents of Too-much and Too-little: Too-much will suffocate Eros, and Too-little will starve him. Being the child of both Eros has to, if he is to gain eternal life, be alike to his grandmother (Beauty) who is eternal rather than being like his father (Too-much) and his mother (Too-little). As such, we can understand for the sake of visualization think of this family as a family of fires: The Mother (Penia): no fire at all. The Father (Poros): too-much fire. The grandmother (Beauty): Eternal fire. The grandfather (Measure): the one who recognizes how much is too much and how much is too little. For him to be born, animation-itself or inspiration-itself, has to be ignited and born into this world: Eros, being a child of his parents, is neither "no fire at all" nor is he "too much fire", he is inbetween the two. So this Eros inherited his grandfather's gift (Measure) - the gift of Measure - Eros recognizes how much leads to Eternal fire - but Eros has yet to master this gift. Eros recognizes through recognition of what Beauty is - after all, Eros is the grandchild to Beauty and this means that Eros too is beautiful. So Eros has the ideal conditions of walking the beautiful path, but being a child to both parents, Eros keeps tilting over towards one nature or the other: either suffocating or starving. Eros lives in a world where his fire is constantly challenged and at the brink of extinction. Let us repeat, being animation-itself or inspiration-itself, he keeps constantly dying off and being reborn - he is after all the grandchild of eternal beauty and so this goes on for eternity. How does one stop this from occuring so that Eros may have eternal life? Let's see... as the grandchild of Measure and Beauty, is it not the case that he must learn what Eternal Beauty is? Words and phrases won't be enough for these teachings... because words can not describe beauty. Only beauty can recognize Beauty, so alike to how one needs verbal knowledge to understand this text, recognition of beauty is required to come to know Beauty. This is another language altogether - a language of Beauty spoken through acts inspired by Beauty, speeches inspired by Beauty, and creations inspired by Beauty. Luckily, if we can keep Eros alive, then inspiration won't be a problem and recognizing Beauty won't either - Eros is after all Inspiration-itself or animation-itself. Let's see.. as inspiration-itself and animation-itself, Eros is able to ignite other souls to be born by means of inspiration or animation :) like a candle sharing his fire to others, and so, he lights them up and make them come alive. An awakening into learning the language of Beauty as well as being inspired to live life beautifully. However, ultimately, Eros is only response for whatever Eros does. Ultimately, Eros teachings are about neither suffocating nor starving, and being the apropriate amount of beauty. Eros must not preocuppy the fire with sharing yet, not until reaching perfection, and yet, Eros will skillfully still share the fire with others just being around them - it is after all noticeable when this happen because people "light up" and begin living. Let's understand.... perhaps you do already. Where do we find this inspiration and beauty for example? Where is Eros is the question?.. Love is one of its language expressions. (Loving) play is another one of its language expressions whether sexual play, childish pretend play, or any sort of play including sports that feels animated (reciprocal play). The arts of animated creation: dance, singing, writing, painting, cooking, etc. As Eros, naturally, it means that sexual desire too is another one these expressions. But in all of these, in life, Eros can either be extinguished by having too much of it, or too little of it. Life can also drown Eros because of the seriousness and staleness of it, which leaves no room for Eros to exist. We live in a world where Eros is to be oppressed, but Eros is the principle that makes life worth living :) An effortless living without needing anything other than the richness of beauty. Why would one want to live an uninspired or unanimated life? Isn't that the life of the dead-Eros, an extinguished fire?~ Find this, and your "knowledge" will far exceed both JPB and Vervaeke. Begin learning this language of beauty. How will you know that you are going right? Life will become increasingly beautiful and animated. It is alike to learning to ride a bike, eventually, it will roll itself :)

[@johnoswald9143]

It’s amazing how relevant and needed this lectures series is. Thank you Dr Vervaeke.

[@Esotericism43]

The historicity of being is what you teach through unfolding through the wisest sage, in the series. The tzimtzum of universe. Expanse and contraction. The many and the one. Super grateful for your content. It means more than you can know.

[@kjetilodinstrand6180]

*Click!* This is the best way I've heard you point to what participatory knowing is! Very skilful. Thank you John!

[@psynergy1756]

Thank you, I love this new series ! Already you have opened such helpful insights within me - about my own life, ways of living and so on. Resulting from, your ‘presentation’ component, from beginning trying the practices, and from how those interaffect with each other and within me

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you so much for your kind comment, Psynergy 1! Please consider subscribing to the channel so that we can continue to increase our reach to new people with our work!

[@n8works]

This one was amazing!!! Thanks JV!

[@tensevo]

This is great again John, many of these ideas I have been playing about with for a long time, but this course and the last, really nicely tie them together in a cohesive way. It is exciting to know, that not only is my thinking not strange, but they might be some of the oldest documented thoughts.

[@sohamsuke]

Thank you John, beyond lovable.

[@thomashelliger2297]

I love you. You are my inspiration

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you so much for your kind comment, Thomas Helliger! Please consider subscribing to the channel so that we can continue to increase our reach to new people with our work!

[@travisrobson5889]

I found this to be such continually mind blowing episode. Thank you John!

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

Wow! Last day of holidays before a research project sends me down a different rabbit hole. Thank you so much John! Binge watch! Plus that outrageous talk with Peterson (in his beautiful Twitter Suit) which was seriously.... AS GOOD AS IT GETS! 🙏❤🙏❤🙏❤

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Lol. The way John was looking at him half smiling. “You look good.” “Thank you. This is my Twitter suit.” 😂

[@williamsheppe9559]

Thank you John for sharing your profound knowledge on After Socrates. I have begun to put into daily practice your meditational practices.

[@Beederda]

I appreciate YOUR time JV ❤️🍄

[@l.brouillette9946]

So excited to watch all of these. Just wondering if the audio will be released on spotify like AFTMC?

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes :)

[@leadershipisaphilosophy]

Your conclusion right before the practices was excellent.

[@trentp151]

Fascinating! Watched all 3, and eager to see the next episodes!

[@thetranscendedman]

Thank you for such a great explanation of aporia. Now that this series has started, I keep seeing the words “after Socrates” in more places I read. Most recently a wisdom calendar by Leo Tolstoy.

[@macanbhaird1966]

I am only half way through this and my week is made. Many thanks 👍

[@petermultari7699]

Thank you, again, Professor. These videos compounding on each other make each one better. Appreciate your wisdom, which is very needed in our time. You blew my mind when you related all of the dimensions of perception. Big “aha” moment :)

[@junjunjarjarbinx]

This episode almost gave me a heart attack. Great work Mr. Vervaeke!

[@anthonylawton5363]

Wow. Had to listen to this a few times, but I am really starting to get this!!!

[@BlueBirdgg]

Great videos John.

[@diegotejera2742]

Much love John ✌️

[@latneyblunk3643]

Amazon is delivering my books today! Can't wait to get the next video.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

This is exactly the kind of discourse we need today! Proper positive role model for young people; Real Talk about real things, bringing Philosophy and CogSci to the masses; a living, genuine, congruent attempt at curing an ailing culture/society; ancient solutions to modern problems; bridging gaps between seemingly disparate fields/worldviews, smashing illusions and false dichotomies; truly embodying the dialectic/discursive Way... Just hits every possible mark imo. The fact that these are hitting c.20k views in itself is incredibly heartening. Good work, and thank you 🙏 Really hope I live to see this become mainstream public discourse. I would love to know, do you have any thoughts on making these kinds of topics/content digestible for younger audiences.. I work in a primary school and think this would be incredibly valuable to young, plastic minds.

[@alexanderhaynes]

Thanks John :)

[@projectmalus]

Very interesting, thanks.

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Love this John. Your question about why Plato refrains from direct communication about dialectic (& Plotinus) makes me think of Kierkegaard’s indirect authorship-it’s like an apprenticeship! Exactly! They avoided direct communication because they were inducting us into the practice?

[@BertWald-wp9pz]

Brilliant. I suspect this is about a move from intelligence to creativity. Creativity, like know how or skill, is rooted in real outcomes or actions that do not necessarily need a why.

[@MrMarktrumble]

Thank you

[@zoomerpastor]

Yooo! 3 episodes a day? Now that's what's up.

[@Adhikpost]

Interesting info about Socrates and his doalogical method...

[@ivanmyskowski49]

Looking forward to you hitting that 100,000 subscribers!

[@The.Zen.Cyn1c]

A zen koan sounds like a deliberate aporia.

[@SOC-]

God I love the little audio glitches throughout this episode. They offer an uncanny offset to John's general tone and rationality that mixes so well with some of these topics. 1:11:35 Gluon is a term for a particle in quantum physics, discovered by Murray Gell-Mann (not Graham Priest) . They bind quorks together and act as mediators of the strong nuclear force. I mention this for scientific accuracy, not to reify play. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann 1:24:21 - I’ve found that for some older people, aporia may not be the best option for them. They just want to die peacefully. It must be hard to balance as a teacher. To generally speak, but also not to overgeneralize so that you are only speaking to your current audience. Personally, I have gotten caught in extended periods of aphoria. Every sentence became a puzzle. It was not as enjoyable as this practice haha. thank you.

[@yazanasad7811]

Dialectic into dialogos - Gonzalez allows for non propositional knowing Great to see aporia witnessed through these examples

[@GandarDooM]

The duality of all that exists is best explained by Kapila Deva in his Sankhya philosophy, where everything can be divided into the enjoyer (purusha) and the enjoyed (prakriti). The non-duality of everything is best explained by Shankaracharya. As Swami Vivekananda summed it up, it is not that everything is God (Brahman), only God is, everything else is not. The reconciliation between these two opposing philosophical systems is best explained by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with the system of simultaneous qualitative identity and quantitative difference (acintya bheda abheda tattva).

[@brandonwilkinson]

I like the intro

[@fmontechristo]

Consider that!

[@stellau3028]

Wow looks like all listeners are seasoned in philosophy, I’m new and feel like I should take up a course tomorrow…

[@officercrown]

The Buddha explained things in reverse engineering type of way. It’s the most simple way to teach

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

Imaginary gods don’t do anything. Only a real God can help us.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

Nice summary of 4 kinds of knowing at around 39:08

[@normaorlando3538]

"...primordial aspect of our ability to make sense .." Vervaeke Even before reason there is the inward movement which reaches out towards its own.Plotinus III.4.6

[@Jacob011]

Hmm, that's interesting. The Awe-Awe looks to me to have almost an aspect of breathwork. I wonder what Niraj Naik would make of that.

[@HigoWapsico]

Absolutely delicious ❤

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you for your kind comment and your continued support of my work, Kishkashta! Please consider joining my Patreon, if you have yet to do so, in order to help the Vervaeke Foundation continue to increase our capacity to make a meaningful difference in the world :)

[@HigoWapsico]

@@johnvervaeke I’d love to. I finally got a job after 2 years of rejections because I refused to get vaccinated (last time I heard Safe & Effective was when my doctor said it about OxyContin in 2002. It lead to a long struggle, but I knew better). As soon as my head is above water, I’ll be there. I can’t tell you how valuable and meaningful your work has been to me/my life. I’m not exaggerating when I say, I wouldn’t have succeeded in my recovery, nor would I have been able to land this job (Costco) without your work. It’s been instrumental in helping me carve a path, and a value system which is coherent and fulfilling. Your conversation with Bernardo Kastrup, was the spark which ended with me realizing I was wrong about being a militant atheist, which led to an ‘apology tour,’ and a bit more humility and ‘shadow work’ I’m truly grateful.

[@rtizzi]

Rotating between the informational processing modes of participatory (intuitive action) and propositional (thingy action) is not only what represents a healthy agent in the arena, but perhaps constitutes the geometry of all "things" and "no-things" in the orientation space. I don't see procedural/perspectival as separate, but as orientation flipping like qubit logic gates between propositional and participatory.

[@Science-bi8dp]

Awesome episode. The key is on the tip of your tongue 😛

[@Science-bi8dp]

Intelligent behavior. That's child's play lol 😆 No invasive operation required

[@lcm2023]

just saw you with JP, can’t wait to absorb your content! how many subscribers did you get from views from JP?

[@arturoazpurua521]

Hello John, I was thinking it would be great if the series were supplemented with clips of the practices, some tips on how to deepen the experience and incorporate them in a day. I am immensely thankful for being able to engage and be changed by your project!

[@martinchikilian]

Amazing episode, John! Looking forward to the fourth one next week. I have a few questions about this one -- for John or whoever wants to chip in: 1) If Plato was presumably not being specific about how to do dialectic on purpose (probably due to at least one of the three plausible explanations -- or something else entirely, as John said), what do you think the reverse engineering project will leave us *without*? Is the reverse engineering project one that's needed because of the times we live in and our culture cognitive grammar forcing us to understand it only in a reverse-engineered fashion? 2) What’s the name of the other type of memory that’s contrasted against episodic memory? In the video, there’s an example of when the person learned how much is 2+2, saying something like "I learned that back in school, but can't remember exactly when" 3) What’s the definition of non-propositional second person perspective and its advantages in true dialogos, really? Is it “seeing the world as if I had your participatory and perspectival knowing, but without your propositional knowing” or the other way around (ie, “having your propositional knowing, but my participatory and perspectival knowing”)? Note that I used the word "advantage" instead of "goal" as I don't believe there's a goal or something to be achieved in true dialogos, but, by the same or a similar token, "advantage" may also be incorrect. I'd appreciate clarification around that too! PS: I'll be happy to post these for a Q&A session instead if there'll be one and if preferred to KZbin.

[@PrometheusMonk]

Philosophy is a full-contact sport

[@TBOLM_TheCyrWheelEdition]

Hi John, I am not sure if you have read The Orphean Passages by Walter Wangerin Jr? So much of what you've said appears in the Introduction of the book. He articulates all of this from the Christian perspective, and I am myself filled with wonder by the extent of the parallelism between what've said in this lecture and what he has written in his book. Amazing!

[@johnvervaeke]

I have not but thanks for pointing it out.

[@clinthaugen375]

Any chance leaving this comment will get me a conversation with John some day? Like for a yes ✊

[@clinthaugen375]

I believe in you ✊

[@philosopher888stoned]

@@clinthaugen375 Keep on believing, make all the things and have fun during the day ❤️

[@alexcruz1045]

Does empathy or the ability to adopt another person's point of view, intellectually and emotionally, fall under perspectival knowing?

[@danskiver5909]

Socrates showed us how to question, Jesus shows us how to answer. We mostly got Socrates correct but we got Jesus mostly wrong. This leaves us with the IS/OUGHT problem and ruling class governance.

[@drakosophos]

John, I would love a response to this question: Which translations/transliterations/renditions of the Tao Te Ching have you studied, and which is your favorite? You and I have both had conversations on KZbin with the same person, and I will be recording with them again soon. This series will definitely be discussed and that is one question at this junction I wish I could ask you directly. Thank you.

[@tensevo]

1:01:30 Second Person Perspective Between In Dialogue

[@user-yd1dw6it3r]

🙏

[@5hydroxyT]

the most important thing i got out of this lecture was to remember to look up

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

I’m struggling to listen to this. My background is existential philosophy with a Kierkegaardian bend- so it’s not the language and methodology being used. Obviously it’s a wonderful work by excellent philosophers. What I think I’m struggling with is this: Eastern Orthodoxy has captured my heart and spirit so that I’ve gone beyond reason in some ways. More and more, living the Orthodox way daily in practice covers what is being attempted here in a meaningful, lived out way. Listening to this leads me to imagine that this series is really for those who are very, very lost in the world and have not encountered the Spirit. I’ll be looking for Pageau’s feedback as an Orthodox brother. Stacy g.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Yes. I feel the same. After being so heavily invested in John, Jung, Peterson, McgilChrist and everything in John’s project I looked at Christianity as good but needing to be upgraded and integrated. The change with Orthodoxy (in spite of my opposition to it at the point of conversion ) has put me into a conflicted place. Much of what John is right about is in Orthodoxy, but some must be rejected and is part of an at net anti Christ project of chiliasm that thinks it can do Christianity better while rejecting what makes it a straight and narrow way. Even John (when Peterson brings up that John sounds more Christian due to his conversations with Christians) immediately goes to saying that his partner (girlfriend) told him he is more Christian than any Christians she has ever met. And John is probably the best good faith actor to have these discussions with in comparison to most in the project, Christopher Masorpietro maybe being the exception. I find myself torn between needing to argue against what is wrong with it as someone who understands the project and many of John’s “prophets of the meaning crisis” and to let it go and pursue my faith, family and life. I think I’m too close to it and just need to write a letter to the church about it. They have bishop who is a philosopher on the way to debate John on Neoplatonism, people integrating psychology without breaking the faith, and Jonathan continuing to dialogue and argue in good cheer. So I think I should take that route and hike the ball to the serious people our institution has. John’s project will however continue and be used by the spirit of the times, as the Bible actually predicts of Christianity we will be rejected for a worldly religion that claims to be Christian to the point it fools even the elect. At least our representatives can make the case publicly that we have the way with a seriously sophisticated philosophy and ecology of practices. I think then for many who at least are shown it becomes more a matter of modern man refusing Christianity than the false statement that he can’t believe and participate in it. God bless.

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

@@Ac-ip5hd I agree with you. In the first session John spoke of bringing Socrates into us and I thought, “Good grief! We can’t ingest Socrates as if it were equivalent to the Holy Mysteries!”

[@Ac-ip5hd]

@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 Yes. I think it’s seen In Nietzsche and many anti Christians to put Socrates and other Greeks above Christ. It’s also falsely seen as necessary in modern times due to the loss of orthodox tradition that properly subsumed them, and the escape of Neoplatonism and reason through chiliasm and the corruption of the Catholic Church.

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

@@Ac-ip5hd right on. I wonder how Vervaeke plans to measure success with his project. In the end, some will be deceived into thinking they’ve achieved meaning Nirvana- but it will be short lived.

[@KevinFlowersJr]

Ah, just the person I've been looking for. Any good recommendations on learning the sets of practices within the Eastern Orthodox tradition(s)?

[@adamrisko7641]

Are you guys all fans for Ken Wilber as well?

[@archanglemercuri]

❤

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Is agent-arena a fancy way to say subject and verb? One cannot be without the other. Throw in direct object for more details. A stadium without a game. A sports team without a field.

[@Viplexify]

Is there a practice that helps you grasp no-thingness? Does it make sense to go on until I have grasped it? I'm going to listen to these lectures for ages.

[@mavoca-frngrk]

I was wondering if 'ratio' would be any relevance to power law/fractal in nature. E.g. Sally Wilcox's work on 'Fractal Topology of Transcendent Experience'

[@issoof6322]

Is there an audio version these lectures?

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Your description of reverse engineering and the generation of a plausibility argument for how human intelligence may work makes me think of the shape of C.S. Peirce’s abducive logic. It also reminds me of another Canadian philosopher, Douglas Walton’s work. Have you read his work on AI and abduction?

[@walterschultz9583]

During my sitting (I'm presently working with Nisargadata's "I am") I've come to reduce all of my experience to "feeling" and "pictures". Feeling, what is continuous, global, (eg. the five senses), and pictures: mind, thought. It seems to me that I am not conscious of what (feeling) I cannot picture --perspectival knowing?, even though, per this lecture, the other knowings are chugging along without skipping a beat. So conscious -ness does not equal knowing, or is only one kind of knowing, right? Yogis seem to be able to more fully inhabit the other knowings and even be fully aware when unconscious, eg. sound asleep.

[@James-mk8jp]

Do you know where we can find Dialectic and Dialogue without paying ~$1500 on Amazon?

[@SpencerTwiddy]

What is the name of the intro song?

[@Science-bi8dp]

If nature didn't make it. Nature will surely break it

[@LosCurrans]

Where can I find the book for under $398?

[@googleg8650]

there was a highlighted word like ver·i·si·mil·i·tude when talking about the example of abstract objects. I cant find it for the life of me. anyone help?

[@Science-bi8dp]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[@psychnstatstutor]

1:11:39 'if there is not a relationship'? ...as the fingers separate, and the previous statement was the same, with fingers joined; and given the statements following after about being identical to pars a) and b)....I think I just answered my own question >_