After Socrates: Episode 6 - Sophrosyne: Tempted by the Good | Dr. John Vervaeke

[@vo2897]

It's a shame John's work isn't connected to a bigger audience. Thank You Sir.

[@grailcountry]

All the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly. -Thomas Aquinas

[@tarhunta2111]

Aquinas would know about flies since he was full of shit.

[@mcnallyaar]

🙏🏼 In that same vein, another by Aquinas: "All that I have written appears to be as so much straw after the things that have been revealed to me."

[@tensevo]

So brilliant, education used to mean, to draw out, educe. now it means, "to put in", correct those wrong thinkers.

[@StudyingTheMind]

the shrooms really be hittin in this episode 🍄 thank you for the inspiring mindweb threads you so boldly spin Dr V, looking forward to continue our work

[@danielmartines3859]

[47:10] “We never transcend out of our finitude, we never have totality, we are always on the open ended road to infinity, we are always moving on the horizon of the good, we are lovers of wisdom, we are never gods who possess it”. Wow, this sentence alone could be a formidable prayer

[@wenyang5916]

This course has become my new morning ritual. After watching an episode first thing in the morning, it sati (reminds) me of the truly important and foreground relevance realization thought out an entire day. Make me a better person, so thank you

[@GallumA]

These are brilliant. I'm determined to go through these. and in some strange way I can't help but think I'm in a course for Wizardry.

[@OskarElsgaard]

As I have been watching this series, i have simultaneously been reading 'being and having' by Eric Fromm. Continuously they are in dialogue as i unfold them, and then recently he discussed two ways of reading, as acquiring knowledge and as transformative engaging, and i have been pondering how to know if i do one or the other. And then, when John is talking about being in dialogue with different books, It was such an intense instant of it was conveying, that im completely overwhelmed. Thank you for being my most live (biologically and metaphorically) partner of dialogue.

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee!!!!

[@lethargicimagination]

John, your work is greatly appreciated, thank you

[@dalibofurnell]

Yay ! This came at the perfect time right now , thank you! I needed this. You bring a lot of hope ,John. Seriously, I don't think I'll ever be able to properly thank you or put into words how much you've helped me . Bless you.

[@juanromero7189]

This is how I understand poetry: is to "follow" essences with the least amount of words. Chiasm (transjectivity) is at the heart of a good poem. Indeed, this episode's practice (Lectio Divina) can be done with selected poems as well. Another great episode John!❤

[@sarahclairemulligan5396]

So deeply thankful for your teaching John ~~~~~~~~

[@johannoriel]

Awesome. I did not know this practice. I love the transjective nature it embeds.

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank you!!!

[@martinchikilian]

This is one of the best episodes of the series so far. Thanks to the crew and you, John, for yet another excellent delivery. And I agree with other people’s comments on the production quality - it keeps getting better over time!

[@joelvinsant1189]

Thank you so much.. I can't tell you how many times I've been on the verge of tears listening to your series(s). This message brings me motivation that nothing else ever has.. it has revealed more to me than I could have ever thought possible. Thank you again ♥️

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

It's interesting that even thought you can never exhaust the camera's relationships, you can better imagine it the more you engage with it, and can learn more about it from others who've engaged with it. So despite it's inexhaustible myriad of meaning, it can become more intimately known through experience, play, and shared knowledge from others, shining more and revealing more of itself by means of participation and good faith conversation from others who know aspects of it. Anecdotally, I had one of those cameras as a young kid and it had some cool textures, was really old and dusty, and I remember liking the mechanical way it opened and closed. Great episode and looking forward to more!

[@mikegarrigan5182]

I’m not sure if this problem is mine or for everyone, but for the first time during this series advertisements kept showing up. Anybody else?

[@Beederda]

This was a really well crafted episode, it had the depth without it being argh 🤯 lol as always I appreciate YOUR time JV ❤️🍄

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

😊 I just finished reading Charmides yesterday.

[@simritnam612]

The Algo has brought us together.

[@mills8102]

Can you make a playlist or compilation video of the practices? If you are intentionally not doing that, I can appreciate that but otherwise it would be nice to have them all in one place to review. Thank you so much for YOUR time and attention (regarding your work, not my request)!

[@richardsantomauro6947]

See below. So far a lot of these have already been covered in other courses. The Hesychastic Meditation and Contemplation from the guided miscellaneous meditation practices is also very good. On a personal note the Hesychastic Contemplation links and layers incredibly well with Tummo Breathing, A View From Above and Andrew Huberman's "Space Time Bridging" (Which also utilizes a form of a view from above). kzbin.info/aero/PLPKjpRj385otRm0GRAQhYvdWWHb7_3oLC kzbin.info/aero/PLPKjpRj385ovi8X1vO3seYl42ep-ER3Dv kzbin.info/aero/PLPKjpRj385osnr0HicGgjyzFwkm4PIWCe kzbin.info/aero/PLPKjpRj385otsGMt5_rb9sGQ1zQ0cDox8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGbMeHaNaMt3mJY

[@mills8102]

@@richardsantomauro6947 Thank you for the list of recommendations! I will definitely have to explore these later. I'm really trying to engage with this course on it's own for the moment. JV has helped me connect with these concepts in AFTMC and understand myself and the dynamics I'm part of in a way that has had real life day to day benefits. I'm confident that this course and is prescribed practices can go further.

[@nathancurtis5820]

kzbin.info/aero/PLPKjpRj385otRm0GRAQhYvdWWHb7_3oLC After Socrates Practices

[@mills8102]

@@nathancurtis5820 Thank you! Very well done!

[@matthewparlato5626]

God Bless! Follow the Logos!!

[@edgruchacz7707]

hey john love your work thank you for your time in putting this all together, wanted to respectfully bring to your attention if you are currently unaware that youtube is hitting us viewers with a lot of ads, two almost every five minutes, not sure by whose direction this was done and happy to support just wanted to let you know it has a slight impact on the enjoyment of your presentations and our ability to engage in the logos of your work

[@nubtools]

Just landing back on your channel after being gone for a while. The production quality is amazing. Well done. Matches the quality of your content now.

[@danchiappe]

Maybe one way to think of a “through line” in a way that intelligibly links the aspects of a thing is by making use of Husserl’s notion of the protention-primary impression-retention structure of time consciousness. It captures the fact that as we experientially move through an object, we anticipate certain experiences, which then become primary impressions, and which then recede into a retention, in an ever changing, yet structured, time consciousness. This would put Being and Time together.

[@nathancurtis5820]

14:48 Quote 1 18:24 Quote 2

[@jacksparrow3105]

Symphonic gesturing. Thank Ol' Teacher...

[@grailcountry]

According to the heart of Christian interpretation-the doctrine that God is triune-there is indeed a meta-hegemonic discourse, a Conversation in progress before all created conversations. (This heart of Christian doctrine, one should note, is not so foreign to Judaism as might be supposed.) According to Genesis, in and as the beginning, God says, “Let there be” and whatever is, is. According to John’s version of Genesis, in the beginning God’s Word is with God so utterly as to be God, and all things come to be by being mentioned in this Word. God speaks his Word, which so completely is his truth as to be like him a person, who then must respond. This conversation, prototypically for any good conversation, has a Spirit that is of one being with the conversants. Thus God is a Conversation. -Robert W. Jenson

[@ideacastilluminate]

I just released some soundscapes through a project with the pseudonym or nom de plume, 'Sophrosyne' in the title and I dedicated a track to you John. I won't disclose the details beyond this so as not to promote my work here, but It's uncanny for me just the same! Perhaps someday I can share that track with you.

[@vincentchapdelaine848]

Link to that?

[@ideacastilluminate]

@@vincentchapdelaine848 I can give you my KZbin channel since it draws no revenue. Thanks for checking it out. It's a bit amateurish but we all have to start somewhere. kzbin.info/door/bCkXz11UaJx_8_JLneZb4g

[@bobwilkinsonguitar6142]

As one of the other musicians circumambulating this scene, any synchronicity is valuable, and I personally wouldn't blame you for a link, though I can't speak for other Vervakeans

[@ideacastilluminate]

@@bobwilkinsonguitar6142 I agree, I wouldn't begrudge someone a respectful and relevant plug for an art or music product. Aesthetics is part of the means of finding or being with the good.

[@jonassvik1580]

A proposal for developing language about educe: The way John uses it, to draw out, can be kept in it's spelling. When refering to education write "ejuce" - and for continuity we can spell ejucation. Similar ring to it as justification, refering to Gregg's justification system, pointing to how much proposition dominated current school systems I might be off in the exact phrasing. Point is, we can simply choose to create new language that works. We aren't actually bound to the confines of formal rules. They are designed to change based on what emerges.

[@sohamsuke]

Brilliant, John.

[@VelaCeras]

Hey John, great episode as always. I wanted to ask if you think this practice only applies to written text because I actually do a similar thing with music. It starts by aspectualizing a song and then a record and then putting that into dialogue with what the artist says about the record and trying to see the music from their perspective then once I’ve done that for a while I put it into dialogue with the genre or peer bands and try to divine the through line like you were talking about…. The thing that connects them together.

[@MattGardner-logos]

Can someone help me understand. John stated, "The nature of logos: as recursive relevance realization and its connectedness to finite Transcendence as a fundamental orientation." So, relevance realization is the theory that our eyes focus on items that we believe are relevant and what is relevant is the transcendence. The transcendence is "the good".

[@elodybourgouin7786]

An infinite line is not a line. Am at a second visioning of after Socrates. The first time that passage was above me, I couldn’t make any sense of it. This time the nature of the self directly appear to me. The true self is not a self.

[@RomanDobs]

I started watching on my birthday thank you for this present. Is it fare to say that third way platonism isn’t even platonic anymore ? If the first five lectures we were seeking Socrates and now in the sixth we are moving beyond Socrates or the spirit of Socratic method an into the spirit of Heidegger and Wittgenstein which is post Western Philosophy what actually comes after Socrates ? Nietzsche had some interesting intimations in Birth of Tragedy has some interesting things to say about Socrates I dare say. I’m still reading it and im still digesting this lecture. Thanks 🙏. Looking forward to hearing how third wave Platonism explains how Nietzsche is played out insufficiently in relation to western philosophy meaning Socrates.

[@Novaxpass]

“One of the greatest antidotes to totalitarianism is the love of the good. As the through line of the through lines that takes us constantly towards a whole. Remember, that we can never see and that we can never fully define or grasp, but that is always available to us… an inexhaustible fount of intelligibility. That it constantly keeps its promise to us, to guide us as we try to transcend ourselves and become wiser. But, we never transcend out of our finitude, we never have totality, we are always on the open-ended road of infinity. Always moving to the horizon of the good. We are lovers of wisdom. We are never gods that possess it.”

[@philgagne4741]

Anybody has books recommendations for practicing Lectio Divina?

[@ChristianSt97]

I want to know more about nicholas of cusa. please do more on him!

[@RomanDobs]

Sophrosyne means being tempted by the good having faith that following the good begets the good where as a Nietzschean 'will to power' means being tempted by enkrateia or the temptation to be above the good and evil through modal self-deception and ego inflation? Jung said, "where there is will to power there can be no love and where there is love there can be no will power" (works well in the context of the psychological relationship of Marriage) and he was an admirer of his yet saw the danger of his conceptions. I would also refer to the American rock band Tool and their mega hit song "Schism" in the context to the importance of communication and the fragmented state of our modern approaches to studying the mind from so many varied disciplines. Schism: Lyrics by Tool. I know the pieces fit 'Cause I watched them fall away Mildewed and smouldering Fundamental differing Pure intention juxtaposed Will set two lovers' souls in motion Disintegrating as it goes Testing our communication The light that fueled our fire then Has burned a hole between us so We cannot seem to reach an end Crippling our communication I know the pieces fit 'Cause I watched them tumble down No fault, none to blame It doesn't mean I don't desire To point the finger, blame the other Watch the temple topple over To bring the pieces back together Rediscover communication The poetry that comes from The squaring off between And the circling is worth it Finding beauty in the dissonance There was a time that the pieces fit But I watched them fall away Mildewed and smouldering Strangled by our coveting I've done the math enough to know The dangers of our second guessing Doomed to crumble unless we grow And strengthen our communication Cold silence has A tendency to Atrophy any Sense of compassion Between supposed lovers Between supposed lovers I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit I know the pieces fit And I know the pieces fit

[@Hitwz]

Hi Dr Vervaeke. Thank you for everything. I wanted to know the difference between existential inertia and aporia? Are they the same or at different levels of cognition in your opinion?

[@LitotheLlanito]

From a follower: shame about all the ads (or thanks if they're what make your series free!)

[@ramyafennell4615]

John, at the end as you talked about imagining how did Nicholas see the world to make that statement...it linked with a problem I have ....going from inner contemplative attitude to outer seeing. In my experience I've tried to link the two by using the word....beholding....to behold the world in its vast oneness, rather than literally see it. There is a nuance of wonder in beholding. Actually as the world is an appearance in Reality, I just feel this word 'behold' is incredibly useful....maybe because at that point we are engaging nous? I think behold is one of the meanings of nous? Correct me.

[@johnvervaeke]

Very well said. Noticing is the core of nous and beholding is normatively (oriented to the Good) directed noticing. I think what you propose is excellent.

[@majojok]

Should Lectio Divina be practiced separately from Dialogical Reflection?

[@AnHonestDoubter]

John, great series. Have you had a chance to read Dr. David Bohm's short book "On Dialogue"? I think you'd find it a worthwhile read.

[@dvolp10]

Does anyone have a summary of each episode? I'm getting lost.

[@travisrobson5889]

I'm hoping someone can help me see something more clearly. How does all argument, experiment, science, experience presuppose the Good (through line of all through lines). A basic example would be helpful. If I argue that my dog is a labrador where exactly am I appealing to the Good?

[@shineyday]

Thank you John for all your great work, thank you for freely educating sir. A question please; is transjective akin to advaita, non duality ?

[@MrMarktrumble]

The through line of all through lines may be disclosed in Plato's Parmenides. If one accepts the flipping of aspects (it's a rabbit, no it is duck), then the orderly series of contradictions do not refute the the next set of propositions, but make us flip from the One being the point of reference, to all of the each of the many being the point of reference, one of the many as being the point of reference, as related to the One, or one of the many as related to another one of the many, and so on. The totality of the the aspect flips educed by Plato is the one...is the logos...and this may be an answer to the third man argument. Instead of an infinite regress, one has an integrated system of aspect flips. The interconnection of the all aspect flips is the through line...which is the logos....

[@maggiey2671]

This is helpful, thank you !

[@5hydroxyT]

sophrosyne = ideal discipline ?

[@danskiver5909]

Descriptive language follows the through lines of the world as it is. Prescriptive language follows the through lines of possible worlds that one might believe ought to be. It seems linear language is a inadequate tool to use if we’re trying to understand the multidimensional realm being described.

[@joshstoddard3131]

Can we get this on Spotify? The KZbin ads really take me out of the lecture. Thank you

[@marcellalog2236]

Actually I have never see so many ads here, too much for this channel and for this content, very disturbing... what's happened? I think it's a mistake, John Verveake likely does'nt like videos with so much advertising.

[@sharpenedge]

If you don't get ads on Spotify, then you're paying for Spotify. If you get ads on KZbin, then you're not paying for KZbin. Pay for KZbin? 😊

[@psychnstatstutor]

Blimey~ I am so far behind >_< Still listening, processing, and practicing E3...

[@Sheepsherder]

My non-propositional knowing is still working on episode 1 😅

[@אברהםקלנר]

🙏

[@_ARCATEC_]

💓

[@socraticsceptic8047]

...of course Plato does talk about the Form of a physical objects like a chair - but really the Forms are the most abstract metaphysical concepts and their relations such as Oneness, Identity and Difference, whole and part, similarity, greater, equal, lesser, limit and unlimited ... and on... now nowhere does Plato display a complete system relating all these together, although the kernel of this system is in the second half of the Parmenides dialogue. These concepts are defined NOT in the modern sense of a set of necessary and sufficient conditions. But they do have properties that are axiomatic... like: oneness is not many; whole has not part missing; everything is self-identical; similar thing are effected in the same way by the same thing... this seems thread bare however you will be amazed what richness can be unfolded from these...

[@yazanasad7811]

Eidos - structural functional organisation (old) Pre-aristotle eidos - look/aspect (shines but withdraws into mystery). Drawn with it into mystery. Phenomena. Drawing out beyond ourselves Phenmomolgy: looking at aspects and being drawn out into new ways of looking. Aspect shift Every thing has unending aspects, but connect together into a whole but cannot perceive whole Melody - notes in a chain. Pearls in a thread. You never see the whole object. The through line is not an aspect Through line of perspectives. Infinite amount of people can look at things differently. But can't see fully/wholly. Husserl - eidetic reduction Merleau ponty - chiasm (transjective) and open ended. Eidetic eduction following through line of all aspects and perspectives. Each person in a dialectic is doing a through line on the topic (their perspectives) but also on themselves too as they work through their own definition that cannot be captured. Nice. You can get a feel of this. I can't do the practice individually, in a way it requires the through line of perspectives!! To be able to shift between group and self to help both grow. Tracking and following logos Seeing sun not like an object because don't see sun directly. Invisible and light but not source. Good - promise that throughline is there. Through line through all through lines. Will not fail. Good (ontology/onto-nortmativity) is throughline between good (ethical), true and beautiful (follow that through line). Can't do logos, it comes out on its own and draws through to through lines So the emptying is a multi aspectualisatiom through educing different perspectives so that not centrrered. You're centered on it but can't see it (but u know there's something there). The through line never ends. Wisdom is fundamental framing (meta orientation meta optimal grip) that draws us follow path of the good as beings of finite transcendence

[@yazanasad7811]

Sophrysne- tempted by the good. Most excellent way agape. Smart - love the god/one and do what you want. Because no way tempted by the bad. You'd only want to serve that Not tempted by batman/wrestling Wholeness without totality (dictatorship). Always moving towards horizon, never final relevance or God apart relevance realisation. Ratio religio/ right realisation to reality. Realisation as never seeing the whole as captured. Moving along the way/through line. Understanding more about that guide, that feeling of the good as leading drawing me out

[@yazanasad7811]

Lectio divina as contemplative pedagogy - extending to all texts Lectio - what is it like to be and see this way as mindscaping. Imagining authors state. Can also ask what is it (author) that you are tryin to tell me. Whats unfolding for you here. What was their mindstste to really see that Oo So 1) what is being disclosed about being (open eyes and imagine from authors pov) This is after imagining the mindscape of the author

[@yazanasad7811]

Valosken: binding principle of your psychological activity (higher soul) Lower soul (binding principle of your chemical activity) - forms/through line as binding principle Hierarchy of throughlines (classic Plato - wall as through line but house too has it but more) God highest binding principle, binds it all together (not making it a thing, so no separateness, opposite of separating). Highest binding principle transcends us and yet we are still individuals (keep our throughlines) relates to complexifying (when neurons resonating in separateness and connectedness, creates complexity) creates psyche Disclosure: phenomena that is shining forth us, but cannot see source of it (always back to darkness) There is also meta cognition relating to the truth. Meta cognition comes above meta optimal grip and meta orientation Soul -own through line (wetness) Spirit - more participatory/activity related To do something in the spirit of (adopt the through line, this form an apply it) Top of throughline is forms eternals. Go all way down it's actions, matter (not really bounded, raw, physis) When psyche adopts in the spirit of, it is adopting a top through line, transcendent You can analyse physis by removing the through lines but that's more just empirical/analysis of matter. Mindfulness - removing the throughlines, looking at concrete experience of things. Contemplation - taking on a better throughline (letting go of hardened throughlines)

[@benjamin-senpai9564]

Does Oratio need explicit knowlege about the author himself?

[@youcer]

interesting

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

Love is the only thing that we all circle around....why do we search for Love, because we are homo sapiens, not isolates islands. We absolutely are Social beings, like chimpanzees, living in families, groups of care. We like and need connection. Jesus Christ said, everything being creation, and he's right, All is Loved. And it is tge only wayblife thrives and flourishes.

[@suzettedarrow8739]

The fact that so many of the dialogues end in aporia means to me that the 2nd personal dialogue is as fruitless as is the 1st personal appeal to intuition & the 3rd personal appeal to authority. For all the work that goes into dialogue, nobody ends with any plan about where to send their children for schooling.

[@noreenquinn3844]

There is a lot of talk about unconscious bias. People are almost afraid to say anything. Like asking people where they are from. How should people interpret this question and answer it in a wise and good way.

[@noreenquinn3844]

or should the question not be asked at all ?

[@miusername6082]

I feel like there's a bit of irony that can be found beginning with this episode. That irony may be this, that we have moved through the very deep and insightful AFTMC series with a newfound self-awareness for avoiding self-deception through bullshit, then with this episode we've begun to get startled out of deep thought every 10 minutes or so by loud bullshit artists and their advertising. That said, I do understand the purpose behind this type of advertising, but I do get my train of thought disrupted by them all. I am interested in paid, ad-free version if that would be possible.

[@MrGroovequest]

Too many ad interruptions. Literally in the middle.......... of sentences. Perhaps KZbin isn't the right platform?

[@brendantannam499]

I think John is getting nearer and nearer to the aphorisms in scripture. Not that there's an issue with that. He explains the mental dynamics behind the rather laconic way of expressing truths in scripture. Here's a strange twist, though. Scriptures are very suspect where doctrine is concerned, yet very insightful where love of wisdom, philosophy, is concerned. This seems to be behind the confusion in interpretation of scripture, not knowing where the Judaic doctrinal base stops, and Gnosticism and philosophy begin.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

#AwakeningToTheGnosticismCrisis Zeus meat: seasoned with gnosis.

[@popescuraluca7449]

Mr.Vervaeke, you fragmented the understanding of the concept, by not makeing a real sincronic dia- logos, even limited to two people. You also avoid the term " special feeling " educed by this first lesson upon a sacred text context. You just wait to see if this holds first on an internal self perspectiv. Because if It s not happening, it will be far more difficile to find it in a sincronic dia- logos between many. There is a dialectic of the dia-logos în this sincron between many, it should happend the same, the "special " feeling should be installed among them.

[@popescuraluca7449]

My opinion is that the LOGOS should be first understood as Platon defines the eidos as form, using abstract mathematical concepts. The path to GOOD, should happend as Plato thincking went for în the begining.

[@popescuraluca7449]

The picture of Socrates for this episode, simple follows THE LINE în the text .

[@popescuraluca7449]

After all, the text you ve put în the question , maybe the fastest way to reach it s promise purpose🤗

[@suzettedarrow8739]

Doesn't your project of looking for invariant aspectational thrulines run your students directly into Goodman's problem? There are many, many aspectational thruline invariances that have nothing to do with the essences of the thing. You run your students into Goodman's problem without warning them or announcing the problem. You're basically dooming us! D:

[@archanglemercuri]

❤