After Socrates: Episode 10a - Ecology of Practices | Dr. John Vervaeke

Have you been doing your practices? If so, you should REALLY love today's episodes. We decided to release these two episodes back to back because the overall experience is quite unique! In these episodes, Dr. Vervaeke was joined by Christopher Mastropietro, Guy Sengstock, and Taylor Barratt in discussion, practice, and friendship.
Welcome back to After Socrates! Episode 11 releases next FRIDAY, February 24th, 2023. Please join our Patreon to support our work! / johnvervaeke
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You are invited to join John, Guy, and Christopher live, online, at the next Circling & Dialogos Workshop where we discuss & practice the tools involved in both Philosophical Fellowship & Dialectic into Dialogos.
You can find more information, and register, here:
circlinginstit...
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After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

This was priceless...thank you, all of you, the amount of love...just, wow.

[@missh1774]

I noticed the discomfort I was feeling in listening to men speak an inner gentleness. As I spoke this practice, I felt my biases being squeezed out of myself and saw it move away from me. I recognized it was comforting for my family to hear those words and the voices of these men being homed into my surroundings. Amazing how the practice can transmute perspectives. Another great fellowship video. Thank you to the amazing team!

[@Joeonline26]

You felt discomfort in listening to men speaking an inner gentleness? Interesting. May I ask why that's the case? God bless✝️

[@missh1774]

@@Joeonline26 I have never heard men speak like this with each other. And the moment I spoke the immediate "noticing", it was gone.

[@Joeonline26]

@@missh1774 That's a shame to hear you've never heard men speak like this before. As a young man of Christian faith, I've been fortunate enough to experience men speak with each other in a similar way several times. It's great that you're partaking in John's practices and being as honest as possible here in the comments. God bless✝

[@missh1774]

@@Joeonline26 Iv never heard Christian or religious men speak with this much honesty for each other either. In such a way that they are fully presence-ing the soul and beauty of the Aidos between them. Thanks for helping me properly clarify what I meant.

[@Joeonline26]

@@missh1774 That's unfortunate. I have witnessed it a few times throughout my life with several learned men. At least it sounds like you were able to benefit greatly from this conversation. God bless ✝️

[@AdielShnior]

Only 20 minutes into this and I’m completely in love with the four of them

[@5hydroxyT]

i have to say, watching the practices enacted opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for me vs. listening to the theory...this was very challenging and inspiring to watch; i think it was a fantastic idea!

[@climbingmt.sophia]

I'm noticing a strong desire for a group of interlocutors such as this. And the aspiration to become worthy of participation in such

[@zorga0001]

You are worthy!! Don’t insult all your ancestors (human and non human) by thinking otherwise.

[@pwnangel12]

I have the same feeling. My mind conjures Thic Nhat Han talking about Buddhist Sanghas, having a group of fellow practitioners. Or even wiccan covens in a way. "If you build it, they will come" 😅

[@Andrew.baltazar]

This felt like acid. No other way to describe it. A part of me is wary, I've had my trust broken by opening up to the wrong people. I'm afraid I'll not find anyone to open up to in this way again. And that if I ever would, I'd have to walk away from my life as I know it first. Thank you for sharing this with the world. Though I'm afraid it might be a few thousand years ahead of what we're all ready for..

[@johnvervaeke]

I appreciate what you are saying.

[@bobdmb]

Creating this was brave of all of you. I thank you sincerely for doing this. I too feel proud of you John Vervaeke.

[@johannoriel]

I felt the Socratic spirit. Now it makes sense what your project was about. I want to bring that in my life, and for me, it will be in movement, not seating (for many reasons)

[@11828798]

I have been looking forward to arriving at this episode so much. I found myself struggling to adjust to the intimacy at first, but, as Chris said, the tension was at one moment released. I felt the rush of warmth and shared spirit even listening to this. Thank you John for your courage to share this with us! It was very special to share this, even virtually, with you four

[@Sliderx1]

Wonderful and uniquely beautiful. Thank you.

[@DanielDSantos]

Powerful and deep practices! Thanks for your openness and vulnerability.

[@igorpustsin]

I'm noticing that we all need this people to be heard asap...

[@pwnangel12]

So I was raised in the LDS(Mormon) church. The first Sunday of every month was fast and testimony meeting. Everyone was asked if able to fast 2 meals for the day and then the normal meeting of scheduled talks given by chosen members of the congregation was swapped. Instead the podium was left open for any willing to testify their faith in Christ. Im the church we talked about feeling the spirit in the room. These meetings were always so moving for me. It's amazing to see a similar growth from a love of widom. ❤

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

This was so wonderful. I felt I was in the room. Visceral sensations of exhilaration, tears of joy and "relief" (not sure if that's the right word). Thanks, respect & love from Tracy in Wales.

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

It's amazing to see this practice grow. It definitely opened me up and made me appreciate you, John, and Kira :) I hope thing are well, friend!

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

@@TheMeditatingPhilosopher hey Rob, our session was a pivotal event for me too ... lovely to see it being done here... all good with me, lovely to receive a message from you!

[@johnoswald9143]

Genuinely stunning and brave, at long last. Thank you for this.

[@yazanasad7811]

Awareness of awareness - it allows you to participate through contact (moment by moment realises itself). Connect with how realness unfolds, contsct with reality, touch it within and without - reality realising itself and you participate in that

[@yazanasad7811]

Moment by moment - sense perception - Body/Matter (no patterns, just senses) Patterning - Soul, in time, formative principle, patterns play out Governing - rational logoi, reasoning, can extend to forms when non spatio, within spatio temporal, soul dancing around the form

[@yazanasad7811]

Kenosis - has a life of its own

[@yazanasad7811]

The principle is beyond being (we are implying the One here), it is not a thing. So we should be getting a double sense of being and beyond-/non- being when we start to one oneing, because we have being of physis and patterning, and also non being that organises, that endows

[@biscuitsandthat]

It's crazy how much can be said with so few words 🙏

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

The choice to film over the shoulder of the participants was pleasant and immersive. If it was an intentional choice, it worked well. The 4 of you harmonized in a way that was inspiring. This type of experience with other people is invaluable. This kind of interaction is the most meaningful thing in my life. It’s beautiful to see it happen between such brilliant and caring individuals. I want to compliment the degree to which you are delivering on a way of engaging with this material. Passive engagement and the degree of auditory stimulation in daily life makes it too easy to merely listen and not act. Listening becomes a hollow insight masterbation where I look to collect as many profound propositions to do the heavy lifting for me. I recognize this in myself and this series has been something different for me. I feel a definite change in the way that I’m engaging with this material and it’s coming at a time in my life that is culminating so beautifully with the challenges/opportunities I’m facing. John, I know you are conscious and avoidant of making yourself the face of what you’re doing; “The guru” problem, as you put it. I think you’ve done it sufficiently. The more your project pulls me in; the more your face blends with the face of history. The idea of the causal explanation for any event being the entire history of the universe comes to the fore for me. When I contemplate how ideas emerge and grow, it is reflective of the way your project has emerged and grown. It is beautiful to see. It is the degree of humility and incompleteness in your work that calls to me. You take great to care to preserve the wonder that many philosophical systems neglect or under emphasize. In a desperate attempt for total propositional soundness the wonder and horror are avoided. This impulse to be propositionally certain is summed up in an attitude that spurred entire schools of philosophy and psychology. Your work fits nicely as a piece to this giant moving puzzle. It is an instrument in a symphony. It is a step in the dance.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Do you think having no leadership and open sourcing this is going to stop the guru problem as this trickles down and is adopted democratically?

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

@@Ac-ip5hd I think grown adults will see John as a partner and source of information. It’s a straw man to say people are making him a leader figure. People admire his effort. He gives many credits to his colleagues and sources of inspiration. You discredit that because the source of the inspiration doesn’t conform to the dictates of your beliefs about the world. You asked your question as if any answer that diverts from the affirmative “no” would do. I don’t think you are a good faith conversation partner. Any attempt to convey my perspective is wrong by definition, and since it gets conflated with Satan himself every word I or John could say is a product of evil itself. How does a person respond to that? You can interpret my unresponsiveness to your further inquiry as a victory; or a sign of fear on my part. It’s a pity, because there are plenty of reasons someone might not see value in conversing with a person. I wish you well in your attempt to be a keyboard warrior for Jesus. I hope it brings you solace and fulfillment.

[@viacheslavkiselev3125]

is Guy a bodybuilder? He looks strong and confident. At same time so cheerful and lovely. Thanks for sharing the practices!

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes he is.

[@jmholthuysen]

Beautiful. Thank you.

[@martinchikilian]

I'm in awe watching this fine group of people opening up to each another in very profound ways and just wish this kind of conversation happened more naturally among people (at least in the Western part of the world as I can't speak for the East). What happened to the human race that this type of communion between human beings fills us with both inspiration and a sense of longing for what we should have but we don't?

[@chrisdungca6048]

Powerful stuff. There is something more than the words you guys are saying and there is something about presence that cannot be captured on video. Alas, thanks for all of your sincerity. I find a drive within myself to engage with these practices in my own fellowship.

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

Oh boy! Something about having everyone in the room has me super stoked relative to the other episodes!

[@moodbox_no]

1:01:41: Cotext about the diffents modes of being in the conversation

[@anthonylawton5363]

I am so impressed with the courage it takes to be this open on camera "it's crazy" is the quote in the middle that I 100% agree with. I am half way through the IFS book and it feels like looking at parts would make sense in these sessions? Future plans?

[@conexionneuronal8820]

This was amazing, you really enter in collective flow. Thank you very much.

[@EcologicalEconomi]

The exercises reminds me in many ways of drama exercises from my time in acting classes. Like The repetition exercise by Stanford Meisner f.ex. Also some improv games and method acting exercises comes to mind. As an actor you have to acces your feelings and know yourself well enough to use them in order to play a character with different intentions than your own. It can look like an asylum for outsiders to witness and it feels scary at times, to stand by what you really feel and really think, let alone to say it out loud for others to hear! But it can help your acting. That's why it's very brave to put an intimate and sincere search for honesty out for everybody to see and learn from it. Valiant and brave because way too many of us have issues with intimacy and cringe when we see it in others. If so, it's good to try and ask yourself why and see if you dare to be honest with your answer. Thanks again, JV, onwards to part b.

[@winifredlangeard6800]

With all respect, this exchange is very funny, I mean funny in a joyous way, delightful! Maybe because it is so unusual to watch men being so open with each other and truly in earnest to get to..??? Keep it up guys!

[@shogun9450]

Great talk! Can’t wait for episode 11

[@luitek]

One of the most inspiring videos I've encountered in a long time. Thank you for recording this. I will likely try to emulate this w some of my friends.

[@krystofekl8162]

Is anyone aware of any collection of guidelines and "prompts" one might used when trying to run a session such as this? E.g. some recommended texts to reflect on, what kinds of questions to ask during the circling and noticing practices, etc.

[@dalibofurnell]

John Vervaeke, I can so empathize with each one of you here and with the feeling of doing this and sharing it online for others to see and deeply listen, not knowing what response or reprocussions there may be. What I can say that I observed is that it seems to have been evident in each of you a certain amount good faith to be able to maintain dignity and I respect that. I also appreciate the fine care you have used in putting all this together, and it is not difficult to see how hard you worked to make this possible. I would probably need over an hour to speak with you about everything I observed, thought, felt,learned, realized, and recognized and it would be like life giving to life. My response to you is well done, John, I hope that you can sense a feeling of rest assuredness upon receiving feedback. Something that I say to many people, came to mind as I observed and partially participated with interesting commentary I noticed arising from myself and it was a lot of kindness. Kindness I have , kindness to give, kindness in being and kindness in itself. If it's possible for kindness to grow, well my kindness has grown towards you. My instinct is to treat each of you with kindness and I sort of also want to give you all a hug. I see now you've just dropped the next episode as I am commenting, and I feel that it is safe for me and also worth giving some more of my time and attempt to watch and listen. Jordan Peterson once said to you in a podcast that your students must feel as if they know you, that they may feel they walked a journey with you, I agree with that now. What I tell many people is how life is hard , but it is also beautiful if you choose to see it, seek it, be grateful for it. That seemed to be real in what you were doing. In my book I wrote many years ago I spoke about a certain paradox and if I can remember correctly it was something to the affect of there is an ability to see beauty within sadness and sadness within beauty and that exposes a gift in life. It was a bit more complicated and so is this comment to be honest, but I hope you can understand that in a paradoxical way, you have done something with the same effect and that is that you have given or shared a gift to others and it is not nothing, it is not minute, it is profound. Of the many things I am grateful for John, I am grateful that you are alive and that I am also alive at the same time as you. And I am grateful for the journey we walked together (in a sense) and one day I hope to shake your hand and say to you that it was an honor, Sir. You're in my prayers. May God bless you and keep you. May you be filled with loving kindness and may you be loved, may you be at peace and at ease, may you be happy. Thank you.

[@KalebPeters99]

This is a beautifully written comment, thank you 🙏

[@dalibofurnell]

@@KalebPeters99 i appreciate your words of kindness

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

John Socrates thank you John. As you know I have studied and enjoy your studies, so very much. I love intimacy, but have found myself as caregiver of a suffering man from environmental damages of heart disease, and PTSD and environment causing telomere shortening, and Protein misfoldings causing his nucleus destabilizing. So to hear you understanding Socrates, andxall these philosophers as I do, on an intimate level, excites me. Thank you John.

[@jasonmitchell5219]

A good demonstration of how a very mature form of play can be enacted. Thanks and I truly hope everyone responds to this with grace and the bigger picture in mind.

[@moodbox_no]

56:13: Fasilitation of further inquiry of experience that builds on the previous and strenghthen the connection between the praticipants.

[@leedufour]

Thanks everyone!

[@moodbox_no]

48:49: Practicing curiosity via Deep listening, parafrase, check for accuracy, revealing our own experience (hearing that I notice..) Or an instruction like "Say more about that..."

[@GrzegorzBrysiewicz]

Mr Vervaeke going off the rails? nah, that's what retirement is for. Long time before that. But I hear you. It is amazing. Thank you for that.

[@moodbox_no]

39:35: Noticing practice, usualy done as a pair pratice

[@SC-kh8lg]

This feels like true philosophy and the openness of it really shows how the Academy might have been.

[@emeraldcitymystic]

I appreciate this series. Thank you!

[@mrcyan8686]

Grateful 🙏

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

Being and Time is one of the Heideggers insights, but so many beautiful beliefs go round and round Love, empathy and compassion...using dialog using with deep spiritual beliefs, but with feet in reality. Loving, you, loving me, loving us, loving We John.....open hearted meaning. Facts...of spirit....and morals, ethics, and behaviours of Cognitions. Uhuh!

[@joshuafernandez9240]

This is amazing! Just wow.

[@andersonbentini4041]

I almost cry...maybe in the end of this ep...

[@Futtkepup]

I'm resonating

[@wehsee912]

It is very funny, Chris! 🌚☄️❤️💫

[@pwnangel12]

King Arthur and the Knights of the round table.

[@watcherofvideoswasteroftim5788]

I won't stop until I have this

[@Walkabout]

Are you getting some?

[@watcherofvideoswasteroftim5788]

@@Walkabout I am, whatabout you?

[@Walkabout]

@@watcherofvideoswasteroftim5788 yeah, but it's quite a different flavour

[@viacheslavkiselev3125]

The last exercise was the toughest. I spend 5 minutes thinking intensely what you all mean while chanting “Spirit is not in the eye, but between eye and you”. I finally understood it as sprit is somewhere between my (right) eye and brain. But was not sure who spirit is. I then consulted chat gpt, asked it to explain Buber’s quote like I’m a 5 year old. I quickly understood the concept but was still puzzled with the choice of words. It clicked for me when I saw the original title of the Buber’s book “Ich und Du”. I hope you found it as amusing as I did (I laughed hysterically afterwards).

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

This phrase from Willy Wonka has been on my mind a lot lately, "The only way out is through." Not sure if it's relevant that Chris is calling this "If not a way out, a way through." Interesting.

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

@@amberstiefel9748 Yes! For me, it's been a reminder of polarity/trying to fight "bad/shadow" aspects rather than integrate/pendulum swing/finding balance/circling-spiraling-leveling up/equanimity/equilibrium not sure how to phrase it more succinctly...Riddles in the dark...

[@badreddine.elfejer]

At some point it feels like a grammar contest 😂 nuanced language is needed to express in different ways

[@danielfoliaco3873]

53:32 lo hermoso es que encontró un camino a un tesoro del cielo 🤗

[@moodbox_no]

19:10 - 39:10: Vertcal practices

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

The Trinity is the relational God for this reason

[@projectmalus]

Human rate of time as decided by the way objects are allowed to present, as dissimilar to plant rate of time for instance.

[@marynewby9974]

Hmm, very inspirational. If anyone wants to create a fellowship incorporating these practices, hit me up. I savor practicing them alone... how much better would it be practicing them with other people?

[@Walkabout]

Where are you located?

[@RandyJohr]

love at 53:42

[@projectmalus]

The through line seems like an extended route thru positive and negative curvatures, a connected line that is surplus from humans (observable to other humans and other objects) the way green is surplus to a plant, as human care extended in time. If objects don't touch except by nudging and swinging around each other. Thanks. edit: if I follow the line around an object that might be negative curvature, and when I observe an object (using that surplus) I enter it and follow the inside curve which is positive. It's like one of those small birds (swallows?) that kick and glide, objectify and relate as practical and symbolic. The energy is conserved and allowed, directed by both objects as partnership and trading. Within my object an elevator from the penthouse to the parking garage as the express button that ignores the mezzanine level (mezzanine from Graham Harman) and my choice in residing at the mezzanine level while visiting either penthouse or garage (riding both positive and negative curvatures) or reducing the human extended time care by zipping from fascist power to unconscious so called archetypes, those well oiled machines that also offer power, and knowledge.

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

how come Heidegger's metaphysical anti-semitism so linked to his ontology is never adressed?

[@projectmalus]

A square dance as the surplus traded between objects, love as this trading of grace. Knowledge like money like an accordion that expands and contracts by separating into bits that thing, that can be attached to/wrapped over the personal object, that expresses a certain orthogonal value. In the next video, the mechanism (accordion) that Guy is suspicious of? maybe. Linear is the flattening of a curve but there's no straight lines it seems. Anything can be understood by making bits and reassembling them, sort of like calculus, by flattening what's there which substitutes false power for care as "surplus, that can be "acquired" note the right to ownership.

[@archanglemercuri]

At 1:08:08 “yea hehhhe” 🔻 yea 🔺 Hehhhe

[@mellonglass]

Circling happens without economics, parasitism, ego of individualism and basic common sense. The commons were removed for endless growth. The ‘Jazz’ has always been there even though horse shoe theories, haven’t been practicing much music together, but only using stage theories.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

1:09:53 at this point some people use this kind of intimate dialogue as a Grooming strategy to manipulate emotionally some people. Just be aware of that. I'm not saying you do it, you all seem legit, but some people do it and it's worth mentioning.

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@brendantannam499]

I respect the people here and the intention behind the procedures but the practices make me want to run like heck for my Nietzschean suit of armour and close the visor tight on my feelings, as any self-respecting superman will do. I know little about Buber and assumed that there are two ‘thou’s - the other person and the Eternal Thou, God. I thought I picked up on another thou in the conversation a kind of ‘whole thou’. That would make an I three ‘thou’s and an it. I remember the spirit of my two old religions really well and related to John’s point about the difference between the spirit as taught and this new understanding. I wonder, though, did the Bible writers intuit spirit in much the same way as Buber but it didn’t get across to the general believer.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Where two or more are gathered in my name

[@brendantannam499]

@@benjaminlquinlan8702 Whose name - Socrates?

[@Futtkepup]

Holy shit that guy is buff af but he's a shrink

[@_ARCATEC_]

The world is a heady place, and unless it allows for a kind of malleability, lacks the openness of the heart. I recognize the fundamental purpose in a continuous process of realignment between the open and closed. I see this as the reciprocal relationship of masculine and feminine, which drives the cultivation and manifestation of the evolutionary process. Interpreted through Intellidoscope as: Let XZY+Q be Coordinates. Let M be Masculine. Let F be Feminine. •X ( z Fq(m ) Z ( M)Qf z ) Y•

[@Josh-nw8wx]

Dial back the pretentiousness

[@jankan4027]

The blind spot of this entire project (and theory) is the lack of insight into psychoanalysis (Jung is not enough). I take this as a symptom because I know John knows that he is excluding a large part of the conceptual apparatus, which will be fatal. This is also reflected in these "practices", which remain on an imaginary level. The imaginary, in the strict Lacanian sense, is only a compensatory crutch that reduces love (whatever you want to call it) to the exchange of images and the consolidation of the ideal ego. In doing so, you missed the mark of unconscious. You have no idea about the unconscious! Everything is essentially a struggle for recognition, a game premised on the goal of impressing other people, with dazzling veil that conceals the abyss. Too bad.

[@michealwalli7324]

how can a conscious person access the unconscious? this is not therapy.

[@jankan4027]

​@@michealwalli7324 The unconscious is revealed through formations (symptoms) on the surface, e.g., slips, breaks, ellipses, ambiguities, etc. Yes, this is not a therapy, but psychoanalysis is also not a therapy, but an analysis that does not prioritize "well-being" but the truth of one's own desire. This desire is entwined in the material conditions of existence. Therefore, the analysis goes beyond mere psychology and also concerns the social truth.

[@Walkabout]

I'm not sure I follow. "fatal"? "imaginary"? It did stand out to me when CM revealed feeling a lack of edges, that the experience was "too smooth". Perhaps this speaks to an avoidance of tension, unconsciously. Since they are communing, of course they will smooth over differences. But differences and conflict also give us energy of a different flavour, and open us up to include the version of the world that is perpetually in conflict, outside of this peaceful communing moment. They are creating a refuge for themselves and trying to share some of the practices with others to create interpersonal refuges as well. That's commendable. There are always limitations. Another line of CMs that stood out to me was "there's a part of us that is always ahead" - what do you think?

[@jankan4027]

@@Walkabout A balance is always needed between deconstruction of illusions and confirmation or agreement. There is something that is always ahead of us, because consciousness by its very nature lags behind. Lacan actually reinterpreted Freud's motto "wo es war, soll ich werden" (where it was, I shall become), from which he derived the essence of the ethics of psychoanalysis (look it up). The question is therefore a good one, what attitude to adopt towards the unconscious? Ps. Imaginary is, in addition to the Symbolic and the Real, Lacan's concept of the three dimensions of reality. It helps psychoanalysts maneuver between negation and affirmation. The imaginary is especially important when it comes to the body and body image. I think it would be very good if someone could bring it into the discussion.

[@Walkabout]

@@jankan4027 Thanks. I have intended to read more deeply into psychoanalysis, and Lacan. Do you have any suggested starting reading on Lacan vis-a-vis 'mainstream' psychoanalysis? Something on the accessible side? I get turned off with too much jargon (might be unavoidalbe in this field!).

[@catejames6453]

Online cult behavior has been detected. Good to know.