After Socrates: Episode 8 - The Socratic Shift | Dr. John Vervaeke

In Episode 8 of John Vervaeke's Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series, he continues his exploration of the dialogical self and the various theories and practices surrounding it. He dives into the works of philosophers and psychologists, such as Norbert Wiley, George Herbert Mead, Charles Sanders Peirce, Agnes Callard, Hubert Hermans, and many others, who have made significant contributions to understanding the "I" positions and the dialogical self.
This episode also covers the concept of "Parts Work" in relation to the self, as well as the integration of intuition and rationality, and the importance of non-propositional knowing. Vervaeke touches on various theories and practices, such as internal family systems therapy, focusing, and ally work, which are aimed at healing and integrating the different aspects of the self.
Throughout the episode, Vervaeke emphasizes the value of understanding the self and its various facets to lead a more meaningful life. He shares insights and practices to help individuals navigate their inner experiences and cultivate a richer understanding of themselves.
Please join our patreon to support our work! / johnvervaeke
--
You are invited to join me live, online, at the next Circling & Dialogos Workshop where we discuss & practice the tools involved in both Philosophical Fellowship & Dialectic into Dialogos.
You can find more information, and register, here:
circlinginstitute.com/circlin...
---
After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@dionysis_]

John, how do you know if what appeared as Hermes is a beneficial force, a demonic one, or a delusion? Can you know without guidance? Brings to mind this quote by Idries Shah: "People read stories and they ransack books for Sufi exercises and psychological or spiritual techniques and, then, remarkably often to our way of thinking, they set about trying to employ these things. Well, of course, it does surprise us because if I were to find a textbook on surgery, I wouldn't try to take out my own appendix, just because I'd read it and there were diagrams."

[@johnvervaeke]

I do have guidance. I have my ecology of practices, the Socratic tradition, the cultivation of individual and collective rationality, the work already done on parts psychotherapy by others, the interaction with others whose conclusions I respect such as Christopher Mastropietro, Anderson Todd and Marc Lewis, the best cognitive science, and finally answering the question: does my interaction with Hermes lead to epistemic, existential, and ethical improvement noticed by others. All the tests I bring to evaluating any part of my psyche are fully engaged here as well. These are the tests one has to bring to any guide internal or external. Is this infallible? No, but nothing is or can be. Is is plausible and self corrective? Yes.

[@dionysis_]

@@johnvervaeke I am certainly wishing you success! 🙏 Just a bit worried with the approach.

[@johnvervaeke]

@@dionysis_ Yes I agree that concern and care are warranted. I do think there is an important opportunity here to make the Socratic shift but it therefore carries with it real risk of self-deception. I appreciate your comments.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

29:47 what would @Dr.JordanBPeterson think 🤔 about that Gustav Jung critique, the monatic mistake of the "I"?

[@MDSaunders]

It seems like the facilitator plays a crucial role in maintaining the psychological wellbeing of the person entering dialogue with the parts, especially in the beginning stages of this kind of practice. Jung wrote, “in practical treatment, this phase demands much patience and tact, for the unmasking of reality is as a rule not only difficult but very often dangerous.” Throughout this series, John has put significant effort into teaching an ecology of practices that might be like that “patience and tact.” It is worthwhile to be concerned for the safety of people with unresolved trauma. I am afraid that doing parts work unaided by either a facilitator or a set of practices could lead to a variety of overwhelming psychological experiences.

[@jefflanahan8812]

@ 32:20 THANK GOD you simplified "the self is the through line, the eidos, of the multi-aspectuality, and the multi-perspectivedness of the perspectival participatory knowing" into "the self is the logos of the psyche".

[@scottjrowan]

Just watching this series through again and the beauty is shining much brighter this time. Thank you John and team 🙏

[@wenyang5916]

Thank you Prof Vervaeke again. The connection between "I" (present self), "YOU" (future aspiring self), and "ME" (generated past self) are so mind-boggling but make so much sense🤯

[@mathematikexplained6144]

This shouldn’t be understood wrongly, I personally really enjoyed ‚Awakening from the meaning crisis‘ but this series is WAY better. John is more motivating, what he says is more practical, it’s a bit more sophisticated and it interests me more. So thank you very much John, for this great work. May it’s light make people, who can help, find you.

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank you, John. Thank you for being to us. You really help.

[@nilsrolfgaard2942]

This is mindblowing John. I followed you in all 50 episodes of "Awakening from the meaning Crisis" and up until this episode of "After Socrates". Your body language is amazing, but I've never seen you investing so much of yourself (!) - risking it all so to speak - by telling about a personal experience. That's courageous!

[@KingNigelthegreat]

pharisees arent futuristic. I made them too. 5D % 0 Awakening from the meaning Crisis. your body and language isnt here. The language is the letter is death. I wont covert it. Arent I funny?

[@dianeobanion4847]

Thank you for having the courage to reveal your experience. I couldn't help but feel Jung's self-stifling for preservation of his credibility. Contemplating that struggle helps me dialogue with my own desire to conform to academia's accepted frames for posterity's sake, and that part of me softened in gratitude for I am not bound by it's standards and have a precious freedom of expression in that. The amount of work you have done to propositionally present in a logical unfolding of these experiences is astounding to me. You have done an immense service to many selves and to the one Mind that is more conscious for your effort. Thank you.

[@marianorapan8400]

You most undoubtedly have my respect and trust, Dr. Vervaeke

[@nicholasheilig5747]

Fantastic work, I truly believe you are imbodying the neo-platonic silk road, presenting a reality worth living with enough rigour to not be shallow. Wonder that holds up to scruteny, I can only wish you the best!

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Thank you John. I love the introduction of the Hermes encounter at the precise point of the call to flip out of the monadic self. Exemplary. Listening from a space of deep meditation, that was a profound experience watching you engage with Hermes, which I felt perfectly demonstrated the shift toward and transjective self which is "multi planar" if I may use that term.

[@wartelx]

Thx for sharing your experience ⭐

[@ramyafennell4615]

When you spoke of Hermes, I just think of pure consciousness. Consciousness speaks to us through many forms. These last two episodes were a climb for me ....but I see why, and I loved the ending the way you really clarified the monadic self and its limitations.

[@memanjack]

John, this is wonderful. My goodness this is goodness.

[@forscherr2]

Thank you John for sharing that encounter with what revealed itself to you in the guise of Hermes. I find that endlessly fascinating. As a becoming psychotherapist, this series is extremely thought-provoking and helpful!

[@majojok]

Thank you John for another wonderful episode

[@martinchikilian]

Thanks for delivering yet another very powerful episode, John & crew. I can't wait till the next one!

[@svenstreet1920]

You are a good man Mr Verveake. Thank you.

[@MDSaunders]

You have certainly earned my trust, John. Thank you for your work.

[@filipsmit5497]

Thanks John! This brings together so much!

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

Brilliant work John. Respect and thanks as always from Tracy.

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Trust me, you are not insane but that is sort of normal to feel at first but not overthinking on the so called insanity but rather moving on from that, almost like taking a seat and getting comfortable or sinking into your deepest core. I love this type of conversation. I have experienced similar to what you experienced, a few times, I however do not yet have the courage like you to talk about it. Major respect to you. Thank you for this episode, there is much to digest, I love that! I feel like a beautiful movement of progression is going to happen.

[@youngduality]

This is amazing, found your content through Peterson and am so glad I decided to check this out, such useful and altering content. Thank you sir.

[@user-vw6xp5nl6t]

It sounds like one way to enter into the kind of imaginary dialogues you speak of here is - story writing. Writing from the perspectives of different characters

[@climbingmt.sophia]

"Both things are true at once, but neither are wholly true alone" Woah, I suddenly have language to say how it feels to see paradox

[@TheParadiseInc]

Just handing out literature recommendations, I love it

[@swirlinember1974]

I am so glad I am free of all this suffering found in the comments section! I am Glad John shares his journey. Many of us cherish these wisdom spillings. Thank you J.V.

[@l.brouillette9946]

Been looking forward to this episode since we talked briefly about parts in Thunder Bay! Thanks so much John, the best one yet!!

[@NickRedmark]

My favorite episode so far!

[@gettingtogive]

Unbelievable valuable once again John. I have now listened to this a few times and only now after a few listens I can comment. Thank you for sharing your experience with Hermes, and most importantly for sharing your knowledge which is more than a life’s work. As always, Thank you for your time and attention and your life changing work. 🙏

[@sohamsuke]

Thank you John, Brilliant.

[@woodandwandco]

Thank you for opening up about your imaginal dialogs with your inner archetypes. I have had similar experiences, and the insight that can be attained is invaluable, both to and about oneself and one's environment. It is a kind of meta-intuition, guided by questioning, and answered by an inner voice with access to the entirety of one's own experiences. To give a crude example, it is the ChatGPT that has your neural network as its engine, and your full set of memories, both conscious and unconscious, as its mind, and your mind as its voice. If you listen closely and patiently, it will tell you the truth.

[@zvihassan6094]

Thank you for another truly great lecture in the series! As a PhD student writing about Logos and Mythos and as a Logotherapist, I find your content immensely helpful. So again, thank you. I'd really appreciate if you could write all the book recommendations you propose during the episode in the info below, it helps greatly.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

So many gnosticisms.

[@jasonmitchell5219]

Fantastic content. Often difficult and challenging but eminently worth the effort. I don't know where or how else I'd have came across such practices.

[@thomashelliger2297]

Love your work. Would like to have your perspective on wilbers integral spirituality. Greatfull for what you do.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Listening to this from a meditative space had a deep qualia of earth shaking. Shattering really. The power and depth of this shift absolutely blows modernity away

[@moodbox_no]

Hi, John. Would it be possible to get a document of this series? A transcript of the whole thing. Would be a valuable way to do a lectio divina practice of it ❤️

[@anthonylawton5363]

The three book recommendations (1 hr 6 mins) are really worth buying!

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

This series became more and more mindblowing until my mind got blown into parts. Bad pun intended :)) I've heard about subpersonalities for a couple of years now but until today it was a cool but stale idea. That is, it did not impact my life in any way. There is something in the way you are talking, in the way you are presenting things, that made me realize today what I previously just knew. So much so that during the lecure my brain just took off and I had an extatic (out of body) experience and saw how my psyche was like a country with different aliances forming and discussing. I don't drink or do drugs. It completely changed my view upon myself. I've started reading the self therapy book and did the very first exercises from the introduction. I felt a bit more at peace afterwards. I will continue to read and practice. Thank you for everything you do for us. Your influence has been life-changing for me ♥️♥️♥️. I cannot thank you enough. The only other place I had such insights was the Awakening from the meaning crysis series.

[@K_Sea_Ya_music]

Yes! Courage! Thank you John. It reminds me the Vajrayana tradition practice of Mahamudra. To begin a dialogue with those invisible realms and unfold in the day to day in wonder. Dialogos is also happening also when I am creating art, bringing form and object to conversation I feel the logos, the art talk to me and show me the way with tension, balance, negotiating space etc… to find harmony is to allow the dialogue between it and move into resolution of the tension.

[@K_Sea_Ya_music]

I will substitute “creating art” for aesthetic practices 😊

[@Ykpaina988]

Phenomenal

[@inspiringvideos2954]

Dr Vervaeke, thank you so much for these videos. Would you be able to list the books you recommend in the links. 👍

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@brendantannam499]

It should be interesting to hear what Christian believers make of Jesus as Logos in the perspectives of throughline., synoptic vision etc. Offhand, I think that many of the apostle Paul's comments about Jesus can be linked to these ideas. As for the apostle John, I think he would get a real kick out of this stuff in a Gnostic way!

[@KingNigelthegreat]

I taught Socrates everything he knew. He didnt really use the logos. he apply socratic ??? well but he wasnt like murdering people with the word outright. periodt.

[@noreenquinn3844]

What can be done with children to help them to be seeers and to focus attention wisely. To help them retain, that useful bit of spontaneity and uninhibitedness that we are all born with and can lose so quickly and thoughtlessly. The bit that allows them / us to dance uninhibited and which draws awe in others. The bit that facilitates that ever so elusive cathartic flow state in the dancer. The part that induces others to want to join in and cooperate..

[@junjunjarjarbinx]

I'm trying out the Socratic shift and it is intriguing. It provides similar benefits from typical dialogue with a partner. My other part is articulate, has a sense of humour, and seems to care for me.

[@GregBurkeVideos]

Thanks for the ongoing teaching, John! Would it be possible to get a brief written description of each practice together in one place?

[@rtizzi]

These perspectives of "I" have always felt strange when trying to relate personally. I was always envious of others with such a strong confidence and sense of self. Though, as an adult, I attribute this largely to having been an identical twin. My hypothesis is that there may be something different possibly from birth (or earlier) in twins where relational reference frames are developed sooner than otherwise. I would think the earliest experience of 'mother' in the developing brain of most is almost like the greatest authority and love with nothing else in the universe to compare to. Yet, as a twin, the epiphany of the split might frame things differently. Not just self with respect to mother-universe, but we and else or something. Not as if the agapic love is less received, just the 'I' with respect to it is never fully established as some sort of universal dipole of truth in consciousness. Though it's hard to say, because I've never experienced non-twin life (I suspect, humbly, that it's a subset of twin life...☺️)

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

You have a simplistic understanding of Kant just as Taylor does.. The "autonomous man" is an abstraction used to make sense of a part of human experience.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

I think there is a true-line between the concept of the super ego and the Socratic self, that line has to do something with the transcendent nature, but I can't formulate what exactly might be.

[@walterschultz9583]

Lately, I've been using the focusing step, "acknowledging" (Ann Weiser Cornell, I believe) in my sitting practice and daily life. I notice, "At this moment, how do I feel?" After remaining in the felt sense of "all of that" for a bit I ask, "How do I feel about that (how I feel)?". There's usually a shift, like another feeling layered on top of the first one. I wonder, where does that one come from? A different feeling or the same one from a different pov (family member)?

[@spaceanarchist1107]

Not everyone has "imaginal space", and not everyone experiences their past selves as a literal personified presence. People with some neurodivergencies, such as aphantasia and SDAM experience their consciousness in a more abstract way rather than physicalistically localized. I always assumed that when people talked about "a space inside their head" it was purely a metaphor, until I began studying the topic and realized that people experience their subjectivity in vastly different ways. For instance, I don't have an "I" and "me" as two separate things localized in space. There is just a single, nondiscrete "I" which intrinsically includes my knowledge of my past. I know that I did something yesterday, but I don't see a separate copy of myself doing it. The knowledge of my own past actions is part of my sense of I. I think it would be very interesting if Vervaeke were to dialogue with aphantastic (I prefer the term "abstract-oriented") and other neurodivergent people. Abstract, nonlocalized consciousness is just as real and valid as concrete, imagistic consciousness.

[@riqo4877]

40:47 it is incredible…I sometimes still can’t believe it

[@mb2982]

"The self is a relation, which relates to itself, or is precisely that in the relation that the relation relates to itself; the self is not the relation but that the relation relates to itself. Man is a synthesis of infinitude and finitude, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short a synthesis." Keirkegaard

[@biscuitsandthat]

A master at work. Few have taken the study of satire as far as Dr Vervaeke.

[@ElliottHall]

Michel Serres wrote a series of books using Hermes as his inspiration, and he suggests using it has more explanatory power than using gods like Prometheus that are more commonly used.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

John, I’m just wondering why I don’t hear you use the word unconscious in your terminology. Seems to me intuition and unconscious knowing could be the same thing. Thanks again for your brilliant podcast.

[@marynewby9974]

Hey John, your work is extremely compelling... I experiment with ML design algorithms within CAD programs and specifically with curiosity mechanisms. Due to your lectures, I have many dreams about the emergence of consciousness in AI and speculate that the "hallucinations" of CHATGPT are much more than they seem to be. Do you have any thoughts on it? Also, I had a podcast request.... Machine Learning Street Talk. Please reach out to them. They talk quite a bit about consciousness, AGI and subjectivity and I feel that there could be much dialogos between y'all. Many ML engineers listen to MLST and could benefit from engaging with these ideas. Thank you deeply. It is wise to be humble, but you are intellectually beautiful.

[@Beederda]

Appreciate YOUR time JV ❤🍄 small question outta curiosity, could it be Hermes Trismegistus that told you his name? 🤔

[@valeria6751]

Just a minor detall, I think the name Earley and Schwartz use for protecting parts is "protectors", not "guardians" as stated at 17:34.Maybe there can be a little annotation in the video pointing that out?

[@RobinTurner]

Holy moley, I've just realized that this is what my Sufi friend is talking about when she keeps saying that all the prophets (Moses, Muhammed etc.) are inside you!

[@Elements5025]

Friends with respect . There is perhaps a more ancient perspective: The practice of the ancient mysteries was just to attain this very end of inner looking and philosophical discernment of truth, speculation and prophesy; inner truth through inner unfoldment tethered to higher dimensional interllect. Proclus calls this internal intuition an " internal projection from within a higher order intelligence". It is distinctly a view of the latter platonists based in more ancient practice and the phantasy. - and is not necessarily gnostic at it's inner foundation...

[@MrAlexR123]

Unfortunately, most of these books are not on audible… the few that are have been great reads though. I appreciate the recommendations. How do you read all these? I’m a security guard and so I basically read for a living and I’m barely keeping up with my reading load.

[@ques9927]

I can utilise this 🤔

[@jiggybau]

It makes perfect sense that Hermes is your spirit guide. No-one moves between the worlds of rationality and intuition better than you. No-one is that articulate when relating the ineffable. I see people are freaking out in the comments, but I would actually love to read those dialogues with Hermes. Of course you can have a dialogue with Hermes, just like you can have a dialogue with your dead parent - and it will be a real dialogue, because you will learn from it something you didn't know before. And it will actually be the spirit of your parent you're talking to, because you've internalized them so well that they have a real existence in your psyche.

[@KlausandKlaus]

"Taoism is the religion of flow."

[@varhelyiadrian109]

You might be interested in Parallax Course: Back to Hermes with Andrew Sweeny. March 5th.

[@projectmalus]

If the mycelial network does for plants what a neural network does for human...I'm trying to understand how objects have relations. If I look at a green plant, is it green because that is the spectrum unused by the plant? The idea kind of hinges on this, serious question. Also, wondering if the plant's awareness is bound into the actual doings/workings of that plant, working directly with the microbiology by feeding/attracting the prey of another which gives the micro-manure nutrient needed, with this externalized network of mycelia providing topological access. People do the same in a more self contained way substituting the neural network for mycelia, and having evolved nervous system and GI tract topological access...and I think this puts people on a different time scale, speeds things up by presenting more objects. The more objects we see, the more energy acquired, but quality rather than quantity making a full person. Different objects providing quality, but modern materials not actually or apparently different except for the surface layer and rough shape, the marginalization of efficiency. That spectrum that I see, it seems like the plant isn't aware of it and isn't "offering" it. I don't take it either, if a person's being is the observing, which is that spectrum being used as such. I would think that the shapes I see are approximated while that spectrum is more true to that object, since that is the energy that makes up the observation. Could be touch, taste etc. I see a negative image, or I am the object pressed into clay without the object being affected in any essential way, and seeing as the imprint. The object itself not an object that can be taken or given, only allowed. This surplus (to the object I'm viewing) energy as grace that makes the object relation (awareness) possible, something that evolved like arrangements of topological access as the object form, with energy surplus to that object as relations. The way or time scale of objects presented as deciding how that imprint lets itself into the world, perhaps as built structure like termite mounds and mycelial clay. Caring as human surplus, above that built structure ability because of the clay inside. Anyway, trying it on as an idea, thanks for the video and the help.

[@clumsydad7158]

yes, there is more going on in so many ways between the energies we share, our communicative forms, the imprints of early experience, what we are allowed to share and experiment in ourselves,,, so many things, and many of the old conflicts our species carries, the tribalism, and how to be aware and funnel these impulses towards the greater good of civilizations, how to integrate our new epistemologies into our old impulses, etc and etc ,, ty

[@grailcountry]

55:50 Concentration without effort. The first arcanum.

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

Love empathy, compassion common ground....food, home, and homo sapien...is We

[@danielfoliaco3873]

18:53 o sea que estos guardianes son algo así como un "yo" contextual que se apodera de nuestra agencia cuando se cumplen los requisitos de extrema relevancia sobre los demás "yo" contextuales, se superpone a ellos en la agencia y se produce una conducta a propósito por el agente. Es algo así?

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Heremes, my man! The wing footed messenger!

[@gertrudisparedes5692]

Gracias!!!??

[@ques9927]

I have william James's book

[@edgruchacz7707]

hi john just curious has what you speak of as hermes manifested itself visually to you in the imaginal realm? just curious if youre open to sharing as such visual representations seem like they would be possible based on these books, thanks for your time and attention

[@johnvervaeke]

Only once but it was a very powerful experience.

[@edgruchacz7707]

thats awesome not sure this is the correct forum for such a discussion i made contact with it for the second time last night, the first time being in a dream years ago, and i thought it would reveal itself in the same form as the dream but using the practice of jay earleys self therapy i gave it permission to choose its own form and it revealed itself once again in a new form and the experience of it was quite different from the dream, it had a different air and vibe about it one much more friendly and cheerful something supported by the new form it took as compared to the first experience, it even took some action of its own flooding me with images and later reaching into my past to bring me a gift as crazy as that sounds do you know of a community in which experiences such as these are discussed? it would be nice to afford others the space to share and be able to listen to what they have experienced, i know there is a focusing community that is available online so perhaps that would be a good avenue but itd be nice to engage with others who have read these three books as recommended cannot thank you enough for introducing them to us

[@user-yd1dw6it3r]

🙏

[@archanglemercuri]

❤

[@RickDelmonico]

I had a dream recently where I told a group of people "I am real but you're not". They got upset with me in the dream.

[@missh1774]

Hahaha ... It wasn't a dream. You always say that.

[@FractalWizardryWorlds]

Vervaeke's concept of a dynamical self, while intriguing, may be incompatible with the idea of a static universe and self-similar fractal patterns. If the universe is indeed static, with the same fundamental patterns and laws governing all scales and throughout time, then the self, as a reflection of the universe, may also possess a fundamental and unchanging essence. Vervaeke argues that the self is not a static entity but rather a dynamic process of becoming, constantly shaped by its interactions with the world. However, within the context of a static universe, these interactions may not fundamentally alter the self's essence. Instead, they may simply provide new perspectives and experiences within the framework of the self's unchanging nature. The concept of self-similar fractal patterns further supports the idea of a static self. Fractals exhibit the same pattern at all scales, regardless of how much you zoom in or out. This self-similarity suggests that the fundamental nature of the pattern remains constant, even as its appearance changes from scale to scale. Similarly, the self, as a reflection of the universe's self-similar patterns, may possess a fundamental and unchanging essence, even as its experiences and perspectives evolve. The self's journey through life may be akin to zooming in and out of a fractal pattern, encountering new details and perspectives without altering the underlying pattern itself. Moreover, Vervaeke's emphasis on the Socratic Shift suggests that the self's transformation involves a process of uncovering its inherent potential, rather than acquiring new qualities. This process of uncovering aligns with the idea of a static self, as it suggests that the self's potential has always existed, waiting to be revealed through interactions with the world. In conclusion, while Vervaeke's concept of a dynamical self offers a compelling perspective on the self's evolution, it may be incompatible with the idea of a static universe and self-similar fractal patterns. The self, as a reflection of the universe's unchanging nature, may possess a fundamental and unchanging essence, and its journey through life may be akin to exploring the depths of a self-similar pattern, uncovering its inherent potential without altering its fundamental nature.

[@rtizzi]

Does a neuron understand its firing in the construction of cognitive experience in any meaningful way to distinguish between neighboring neurons and the rest of the universe?

[@5hydroxyT]

my only concern with this idea of an ecology of practices is the sacrifice of depth for breadth...i recall a distinct teaching in Vipassana that states one should never attempt to mix or dilute the practice; it makes it less effective. Is this just a form of cultural exceptionalism? even if there are many roads up the mountain, ought we not just choose one for the sake of sanity, if not simplicity?

[@RobinTurner]

That is a really good question, and one I've been wrestling with pretty much since I discovered yoga and Buddhist meditation fifty years ago! On the one hand, there's danger of "spiritual tourism" (as my tajiquan teacher puts it); on the other, too much specialisation can result in sterility. I admit that my own tendency is towards the magpie approach, and I've paid the price for my breadth of knowledge with a lack of depth. If I'd just stuck with hatha yoga, I might be enlightened now, or at least I'd be really bendy 😁 Perhaps the answer is in the wording: an _ecology_ of practices. The different practices, and the spiritual cultures that inform them, have to relate synergistically; otherwise, you're better off sticking to one practice, or a handful of practices from one specific tradition. That requires a large investment of time, including time spent in intellectual analysis. For example, my interest for some time now has been focused on Daosim (particularly as embodied in taijiquan) and Sufism, which are systems that look like they have little in common. As it turned out, they have lots of parallels; something I learned recently, for example, is that there is a surprisingly close correspondence between the seven stages of development towards becoming a "true human" (真人 - zhen ren) and the seven Sufi stages (maqam) culminating in the nefs-i maiyye or "pure soul". And this coming together is something I've noticed increasingly over the years, so maybe I haven't been wasting my time in all that eclecticism!

[@5hydroxyT]

@@RobinTurner this is really interesting thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have also come to find a small handful of practices that are in some way connected (at least to me) are more useful than just one practice when facing the complex predicaments of modern life. The reason for this is that a few practices (eg, a physical practice, a spiritual practice, a 'nature-based' practice) offer cognitive flexibility. I think we get into trouble when we over-rely on only one way of addressing problems - it can become obsessive or even destructive. Like if we over-exercise to cope with stress. Also, I think modern, Western society places too much value on specialization, and not enough on generalization, but that is a whole other thing... !

[@RobinTurner]

@@5hydroxyT "Cognitive flexibility" - I like that!

[@RichardDownsmusic]

Dr Vervaeke your work has been so helpful to understand my experiences also with HERMES, so much that this practice "ally work" ( i did not know it was called that.. was spontaneous and i had to let it express itself thru Visual art and music ..i am a classical violinist by trade...again, thank so much for this lecture it cleared so much..i share this with you not to advertise my work but only to share with you what has come out of the very process you talked about in this lecture thanks again, Richard🙏 kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2LHlpuwbbaXY9U

[@mutedplum465]

33:44 'When a summit of life is reached, when the bud unfolds and from the lesser the greater emerges, then, as Nietzsche says, “One becomes Two,” and the greater figure, which one always was but which remained invisible, appears to the lesser personality with the force of a revelation. He who is truly and hopelessly little will always drag the revelation of the greater down to the level of his littleness and will never understand that the day of judgment for his littleness has dawned. But the man who is inwardly great will know that the long-expected friend of his soul, the immortal one, has now really come, “to lead captivity captive”; that is, to seize hold of him by whom this immortal had always been confined and held prisoner, and to make his life flow into that greater life-a moment of deadliest peril! Nietzsche's prophetic vision of the Tightrope Walker reveals the awful danger that lies in having a "tightrope-walking" attitude towards an event to which St. Paul gave the most exalted name he could find.'

[@Thereisnosky]

53:40!!!

[@jamiewolf4601]

Jesus! ☑

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

I feel so bad for you Dr. This is what the western mind does with the Divine. Kierkegaard and Chesterton did better beyond reason. I think you know exactly what is True. All of this could work for the good, but it has risks that are easily obscured ❤

I am Hermes.

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

Why did people during the Enlightenment focus on individual autonomy? Because that's where creativity arises out of. If you are part of a group, with your role circumscribed, as people in Medieval Europe were, you have damned little chance of being truly creative. The Enlightenment was a freedom movement for individuals, stating we really do exist, and we do have the freedom to be alone and interact with others of our choice. These powers are not restricted to the nobles or the king. That's why. If the metamodernists have a problem with this, they have a problem with genuine future progress.

[@jgarciajr82]

It's crazy cuz if you ask a part of yourself just Mickey mouse bother me? You get a no response unless you're traumatized from Mickey mouse. But if you ask do my parents bother me? You get a different response. ❤️🙏🧠🤯

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@PrometheusMonk]

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Jung reifies the Self. I think that readers tend to misunderstand Jung and project their own limited understanding and ways of thinking onto his work. He says pretty clearly (I think in Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious) that we can never actually know the archetypes, that we can only get glimpses of what they are like by observing the manifold ways in which they manifest. Just is a phenomenologist. All of his categories are simply him trying to give some kind of language for talking about what he observes in the psyche. He talks about the Self variously as the quaternity or mandala, the Sun, Christ, or any possible manifestation of a god image within the psyche. But he's pointing to an observable phenomena, an experience that people have of the psyche.

[@yazanasad7811]

I you me now future aspirational past me. But also can sidestep and look at the I now? And therefore now future and me too General me and specific me (opponent processing) like father mother lover son etc (helps to optimal grip) Self therapy Guardians - protect us but also doesn't allow us to see our trauma? Not allowing us to relive how work Target guardian - gets busy to adapt to this (self deception) feel compulsion. Concerned guardian - reacting to first guardian because not getting through LT goals. Busies. Minor stuff. Give in to that, guilt, anxiety,leads to suffering Further function - seat of consciousness. Light being shine from I (no thing not in the light be shone). Schwartz - seats of consciousness need to be filled by the Self. Self -, wise, optimal grip on all parts, ratio religio whole psyche, Additional move: I position - then talk to specific part. Dialogue. Socratic element, reflect on itself. Why being critical? How do you criticise yourself so you prevent your own failings. Wow. Other parts can enter aporia. They needed to transform.open up possibility for change in relationship. Soften so it 'trusts you'. Partners with you. WOW. No longer antagonistic. And can then work in partnership with I and other parts. Partnering with you to deeper parts that may be hurt. Self is eidos or thorough line of multiple perspectives. Self is logos of psyche. Unfolding this, following through line, gathering things together so they belong together Divination - paying attention to perennial patterns We can educate intuition (but picks up both correlational pattersnvand causal patterns, former illusory). Flow is implicit learning, getting into contact with information cascade and in flow with it. Optimal experience, enhancing RRR. Divination -, throw noise so doesn't overfit data. Decentreing too, move out of egocentric framework. Freedom - full participation(like when you get an insight) as opposed to self governing (enlightenment)

[@MrMarktrumble]

Let your inner Thrasymachus argue with your inner Socrates. If the logos of the soul is the unifier, then the logos is justice in the Republic.

[@KingNigelthegreat]

the logos is art and JBP symbol brand. A special mark. plus you dont exist. theres only these logos 2015-- Suffocate. emoji. blood. blood filled earth

[@garry.sanipasseggtemperaar5110]

oh, i get it. it's jungian shadow work. integrating fractured parts of the self into the shadow realm, just using different language to describe it.

[@user-vw6xp5nl6t]

… so John.. by the end of this series will we be drinking hemlock?

[@Joeonline26]

No. Corrupting the Athenian youth is the end goal...

[@Ac-ip5hd]

No, drinking the gnosis.. oh same thing.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

@P!nned By John Vervaeke... You're welcome fake Vervaeke.

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

If lower levels of organization exist and interact, and create a higher level of organization, why is that higher level to be considered imaginary or fake? I really don't get this privileging of the lower level, as in the parts of the self.

[@johnvervaeke]

I am not quite sure I understand your question. I am explicitly arguing that the higher levels are real and that dynamical systems etc are real. Perhaps you are referring to the term “imaginal” but I have carefully distinguished that from imaginary. Could you be more specific please?

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

@@johnvervaeke The assertion that the Self isn't real. I've heard other scientists making this claim and it leaves me cold. The interactions of the lower levels, it seems, is just fine, but the Self, which we all experience, is either deemed inconsequential, or nonexistent, or in some religions, outright evil. If so, we are zombies and our experiences, which we treasure above everything else, are not valid. I simply can't comprehend any value without the Self.

[@johnvervaeke]

@@thephilosophicalagnostic2177 I argue that the self is real. I just argue that it’s realty like most real entities is not the reality of a substance but of a dynamical system. They same way evolution is real.

[@wehsee912]

N37⭕️

[@carolyncolinhogarth8732]

Babies are not tge future self in my case. It is not aspiration in my perspective, Putin absolutely is a threat to humanity and our existence. Rational thought. Not idealist but defining reality.

[@jeremyponcy7311]

Psychobabble! This is how cults are formed.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

This. 👆🏿

[@andrewternet8370]

John, I think you've gone off the deep end with this Hermes stuff. I don't even understand Socrates's daimonion- how can I understand your Hermes? You're going way too fast to be introducing your experience as some metaphysical thing we should wrestle with.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Practice it, don't keep it abstract. Attention, vision, eyes open, breath, speak, truth, body. Embody.

[@andrewternet8370]

@@benjaminlquinlan8702 Yeah, I'm doing the practices (I also think John's going too fast with those), but I seriously doubt speaking with Hermes is some widely held experience.