AI is destroying my Board Game Business.

This is truly an update on Woodstock Games as a company. AI has been a big struggle for sure, but we are working past it.
Kickstarter
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Woodstockgames.com

[@woodstockgames27]

@nameroftheguardian is my new artist based in US check them out.

[@languagemaus8083]

I think the only way to avoid that in the future is to check the portfolio of the artist and also ask for screenshots of the process. For example ask for sketches in the first phase and then (if you approve them) the next step is adding color and go more into details. I have never worked on a project where I just deliver the complete illustration without any feedback during the process. Also you can ask for the file, AI doesn't have separate layers for different components, shadows, details etc. It's just one single picture.

[@woodstockgames27]

Hopefully I can avoid this in the future.

[@languagemaus8083]

@@woodstockgames27 I wish you all the best :) not a great time for both artists and companies, AI can be a useful tool but there's need for regulations, else these things will happen again and again

[@gwentarinokripperinolkjdsf683]

The file isn't enough, but would probably catch most scammers. if they were to photo shop together a number of AI images then they could still get away with it. but still, artist should give source files anyway most of the time. I don't because my art is 3d art and I'd be worried of them using it to make other things (though I do charge extra for it) but for illustrations it can be super useful for making tweaks to your art after the fact

[@coyotemoon722]

I guess the actual advice I could give you is hit up the local colleges for illustration major scholars. They're always looking for a project to add to their portfolio and probably wouldn't charge a lot. I mean, you are in Utah so people are used to getting paid way less.

[@woodstockgames27]

Ya I need to get to Utah tech.

[@amagrude]

Here’s what I would do: 1. Pay an artist to fix up the worst of the AI artifacts. 2. Be honest about what happened on the box, in the manual, and on your online marketing. 3. Ship it and move on. I know Internet makes it sound like there are hundreds of millions of people against AI art. The reality is that only a microscopically small fraction of your customers know anything about it. Witness your description of what AI is, fundamentally flawed. If one has to use an analogy, a closer approximation would be, imaging I told you to draw a bunny rabbit in the looney toons style. You’d pull on long dormant memories and draw from scratch a representation of a bunny rabbit - from scratch. Given your memory is imperfect, some of it would be spot on Looney Toons style, rest would be some else that you just did to fill in the gaps of your recollection. How many toes does a bunny have anyway? Do they wear shoes? And so on… At no point is there direct copying. (That is what makes generative art such a mess legally.)

[@nameroftheguardian]

To be honest, one of the best ways to tell if a piece of art is AI is to zoom in on it. For the previous artist, all I had to do was zoom in on the art a little bit and it was easy to see the inconsistencies. For example, the mouths and eyes on each animal were styled completely differently from each other, there were an inconsistent number of digits, the brush strokes didn't match each other (some looked like AI, but the artist colored over them a little bit for example) and more. Hope this helps! :)

[@ddade11]

I noticed this as well. But how does the average person know to look for this? I'm lucky to have been surrounded by artists to learn their process and see details like you mention. But obviously Woodstock Games does not have this experience, nor does most of the public. How do we educate everyone to see the AI warning signs in this industry?

[@woodstockgames27]

good advise

[@woodstockgames27]

@@ddade11 I don't have the experience😭😭😭

[@xonerate371]

With a bit of work the ai stuff can look awesome, especially suitable enough for a boardgame but some recent games using ai have just ported the image straight onto the cards, that’s silly, it looks plastic. As long as the image has a human touch boardgamers aren’t gonna mind if the game is good, I mean where does a filter become an ai generated image, this’ll all blow over, ai is fine if used properly.

[@jasonellsworth4046]

Honestly, probably best thing that happened is thatva local artist got work instead of companies just outsourcing overseas. It always really frustrated me that companies just do not value local labour.

[@woodstockgames27]

I value the labor. I just don't have the money. I got a quote for $23,000 for my game. Then I'll probably only make $6,000 on. Do I go overseas to get my art done? Or just never follow my dreams?

[@fabulasegoblins]

⁠@@woodstockgames27 I know your pain, my project is a TTRPG, and it does have a lot of art. We’ve spent a lot of time and money in arts, but today I see I should have predicted the art cost of the whole project before going forward, and adapt it so we could use less arts strategically and keep impressing customers. I know it was possible, I was just too naive to understand it at the time. Perhaps you could use this situation to rethink your future products to be compatible with an arts budget instead of relying on ASIAN and LATAM exploitation. I agree that generally people don’t give proper value to labor work, and I don’t think it’s your case, I think you are doing a very honest and fine work, and the fact you go on KZbin to talk about that is a very clear demonstration of good faith from you and the company you are behind, but here’s my opinion, and you are free to not agree, but IMHO hiring a guy from a country with a lower exchange rate just to pay him less than you know he deserves is as bad, or even worse, than using AI in the arts. Not sure how many would agree with my vision, but that matter alone would make a great KZbin video 🤔

[@nameroftheguardian]

Follow your dreams every day of the week! I'll help as much as I can with that 😁

[@kilinor]

Congrats on the child! Shame about the art... My wife and I picked up Dice Fights and had a look at Terraform at Level Up, and are still keen to see where it goes. AFAIK, What a lot of people are doing now is asking for work in progress sketches at 2 or 3 points along the development process of the art... It makes it a lot harder to use ai.

[@woodstockgames27]

Thanks for playing my games! Progress pictures are a great idea.

[@allluckyseven]

Good advices in these comments so far. I'd say that yes, you should check portfolios, and also if they have any experience doing any art for board and card games before. And yes, when you've decided for an artist, ask for sketches not necessarily to see if they're working with AI, but to see if you're on the same page as to what you would want the art to look like. Depending on the kind of project you have you could also work with different artists. One for certain key art (stuff that's going to be more prominent, big illustrations), others for icons and the like. That could potentially be cheaper overall... But also different artists have different specialities, so it could make your game better too (ux/ui-wise). I like the idea of checking local colleges. Young artists are more than eager to work professionally, so hiring them would help the both of you. As for my take on AI art, I think it's fine for prototyping. But don't expect me to buy anything from anybody that uses AI for art. So don't put that into your final product.

[@3MBG]

This sucks man, i guess the only advice i can give is get other people to check out their prospective artist portfolio. When we scouted out Marcos Villarroel Lara for my game, he had a portfolio online where you could look through it all and assess it. If someone's portfolio goes back more than a year or 2, thats a sign they aren't using AI too.

[@woodstockgames27]

This is some solid advice. I feel like I found a good artist so far. If I can gather enough money to finish out the project

[@oleyullah]

Ong it's never occurred to me that a Fiver-based or orherwise contacted legit artist would use AI tools and try to pass it as their own work 😮😮😮😢 I was about to outsource sone image and illustration creation to a someone like that and now I'm thinking about going to my local art school and advertising for an illustrator position

[@woodstockgames27]

Neither did I. 😭😭

[@MagicMikeD]

Only work with Artist that provide the sources files, like the photoshop, or Adobe Illustrator files with all the layers. These will have all of the art elements broken out into layers. If they created it with AI, they will not have these source files.

[@woodstockgames27]

good advise

[@jonathanniels]

But how can you be sure that hired artists won’t use AI

[@woodstockgames27]

That's the rub.

[@Auxius.]

Ask for a process video to be added. Easy fix.

[@JLReid]

Since you have a product that is selling, I'd put money back into it and use the returns to then fund Terraform. That would delay your release plans for the game, but consider what could happen if you put your currently available funds into Terraform and it doesn't sell as well as expected. Would that tank the company? Congrats on your daughter, enjoy the new journey!

[@woodstockgames27]

Yes I think that's the plan.

[@notme222]

I'm firmly of the belief that artists using AI tools is inevitable. They're already built into Photoshop. Even smartphones have had "generative fill" for years now. The text-to-image step is the controversial one because it skips over the concepting. But that wouldn't even be noticeable if it wasn't flawed. Which is to say, we should be objecting to bad art, not necessarily AI art. It's that intersection where the problem is right now. Those "red flags". But at least you're in good company. Wizards of the Coast put out a D&D book where it turned out one of their artists had been using AI without authorization. And they didn't catch it until Reddit/Twitter pulled out their own pitchforks. Good luck!

[@woodstockgames27]

Good or bad. I just want to be told. Thanks for watching!

[@sunla]

Thank you for speaking on this topic and opening up your mind and heart to this issue. It's so cool that you're in the business of making board games!

[@woodstockgames27]

Thanks for tuning in! Hopefully I can keep at it for a while.

[@UlugNaar]

Don't worry too much about how the art was made. If it looks good to you, keep it.

[@woodstockgames27]

but i want to give the people what they want

[@Pheorix]

How do you verify that the hired artists aren’t just using AI

[@woodstockgames27]

I don't know 😭😭

[@stefan_nikolic]

Interestingly, you can use another ai for that :)

[@woodstockgames27]

@@stefan_nikolic can you really? What's the name of it?

[@ISavant]

@@stefan_nikolic but you can't, because plagiarism detecting AIs lie just as much as all the other AI models. They'll just go "Yep, that's AI" to whatever, because they're not capable of reasoning, or doing the job that it's claimed they do.

[@gwentarinokripperinolkjdsf683]

@@woodstockgames27 Request WIP work and project files. It will be obvious when your first update is a complete image

[@ddade11]

This is rough to hear. I'm sorry that your game got tagged with AI art. And I am very much against AI use in artwork. I think it should be very important to everyone looking for an artist is that they should really learn and get to know the artist they will be using for their game before art production begins. That way you know exactly what you are getting. Woodstock Games - Did you ever ask for thumbnails of the artwork, or early passes of how your pieces should look before getting the final art? I would recommend that. Having those early renders in pencils/pen lines or early color flats will show its not AI art. And perhaps you can still do that with your old artist. if they have those, you can prove its not AI art. Does the old artist have a larger un-cropped version with their signature on it? I'm not seeing a signature anywhere on those old art pieces. Those are telltale signs of AI or real artist work.

[@woodstockgames27]

I did on early ones, but stopped asking after first one. and all those one are the ones that are said to have AI

[@xonerate371]

I love ai art, for some areas such as natural environments and vistas I think it looks awesome, learn to use it or lose out ‘cos it’s the future. Personally I think the artists brought this upon themselves overcharging for years, also we don’t have a stable economy which increases time pressure work such as art.

[@oystercatcher695]

Sadly, if you want to avoid AI art, businesses need to hire artists not only to produce images, but also as consultants to critically assess them.

[@woodstockgames27]

Who got the money for that?

[@oystercatcher695]

@@woodstockgames27 Truth. Artisanal labour and knowledge costs.

[@GhostFox.]

I'd create art for you. =^-^= I'd even set aside the 3d engine to do it, probably haul out a real pencil, and dust off the wacom tablet. My art is kind of weird, though..... AI art can be neat, but hand-drawn artwork has life. Wish I had advice on where to go from the disaster you're facing.

[@woodstockgames27]

😍😍😍

[@BatisteBieler]

I had a quick look at the art on your website. Yep for me it looks like AI was used, plus some photoshop. There is no distinctive and guiding style. Some looks like water paint, some like vector graphics. Does the artist has a profile on a platform like DeviantArt or ArtStation? IMHO it is the best way to judge if he uses AI or not. All in all I don't think it is a big deal if the art is actually good. I like the graphic design you have, but those cutesy little animal Disney style is not my cup of tea. You would better of hiring somebody with a distinctive and recognisable style if you can afford it.

[@woodstockgames27]

Thanks for taking the time to check out the website. Definitely need some work. I'm excited to see where the new art goes.

[@apelike]

It's funny to be so against AI and so cavalier about outsourcing.

[@woodstockgames27]

I can see how they can seem similar to someone who doesn't understand how AI art works.

[@woodstockgames27]

and/or about Outsourcing

[@apelike]

@@woodstockgames27 I understand how AI works and I understand your argument is against AI because you ordered something you thought was human made and it turned out to be AI, and your worry is about artists not being compensated and your ability to sell a product to a market that is AI resistant ... sure... that's one problem with AI... another is that it takes jobs from people in the same way that outsourcing does... and that's where my comment comes from.

[@Auxius.]

@@apelike Outsourcing is fine, and so is competition. What's not fine is AI.

[@brianh3434]

I hate to break it to everyone but many jobs will be gone in 5 or 10 years from now due to ai. There will always be a market for custom art but many people would rather pay nothing and get something similar for nothing.

[@woodstockgames27]

Yes, but we got to think about how the AI is coming up with these images.

[@jasonellsworth4046]

Okay bro, lots not talk about the fact that customers do not want to buy ai generated art.

[@woodstockgames27]

@@jasonellsworth4046 people want handmade stuff!

[@MarkAhlquist]

AI art is a lot cheaper, faster, and often better than human art.

[@woodstockgames27]

this topic has a lot of nuance. #boardgaming #comedy

[@banjohero1182]

lol, AI sucks and ppl defending AI "art" are losers

[@woodstockgames27]

😂😂😂

[@CampKillCommentary]

lol Caveman don't understand A.I and totally misunderstands how it makes art. Time to get ready for your future.

[@woodstockgames27]

😂😂😂

[@CampKillCommentary]

@@woodstockgames27 me and the machines still love you bro! Join us.

[@coyotemoon722]

I really don't understand why AI is such a big deal for gamers. Almost everything they consume is made by under-waged employees. Furthermore, any digital artist is using AI "technology" such as Photoshop/Illustrator to make art. Why isn't that a big deal? It also takes a bit of prompt-savvy to make _good_ AI art. Idk it feels very first-worldish to care about AI art in board games instead of all of the millions of other injustices in the world. If you're a new publisher, I would think that would be even more of a reason to use AI to help cut costs of your initial products. In order to be justifiably against AI art, you must buy all of your clothes and shoes from craftsmen and shoe cobblers, and your groceries must come from farmers because otherwise you're just hypocritical.

[@woodstockgames27]

I think the main dispute is how the AI is sourcing the art material. But yeah, I wish I could use that as a source. You'd think is a new publisher. I should be able to use this. But I don't want to ostracize my customers. Doing the best I can. Thanks for watching!

[@3MBG]

Several reasons. 1. Its industrial scale piracy 2. People are going to lose their livelihoods to it. 3. It's not art, its just images, there is a difference. 4. Anyone who thinks it is art is a rube with zero appreciation for what actually is art. 5. It makes talent less hacks think they are creative because they can punch in a good order at the menu screen. Asking for extra onions at the drivethrough doesn't make you a chef. 6. It shows a lack of care in the game, if the publisher doesn't care enough about a game to work on it properly, why should consumers 7. Designers are creative, artists are creatives, there is natural solidarity there. 8. No board game channel with any kind of audience will cover a game with AI art in it. Best you could do is one of the pay channels that will tell you poo on a plate is a chocolate bar for enough money. 9. People are capable of caring about more than one issue at a time. I can be concerned about poverty in my community, the war in gaza, and this. And if you want an actual big ticket reason against AI. We are in a climate crisis, and AI and blockchain have added so much demand on power and are creating ridiculous levels of emissions. So yeah, AI is part of one of the biggest problems facing the world. 10. And the final one, all AI does is train people to be dependent on it, they outsource their thinking and creativity to it, making them dumber. Many will spend a hell of a lot of time doing free PR and marketing for tech companies, because said tech company lets them feel like a clever clogs because they typed "catwoman, but busty" into a prompt engine and got something to fap to. And that's the bottom line, because i said so. Don't expect me to see any responses.

[@woodstockgames27]

@3MBG I feel famous. Thanks for contributing.

[@ISavant]

why don't you make, and sell some art then? without using generative AI. Since it's so easy.

[@coyotemoon722]

@@3MBG Did you buy your shoes from a shoe cobbler directly?