AI Will Make Better Games Than Me One Day

[@JonasTyroller]

Not really a video I wanted to make, but I hope to spark some constructive discussions around this. Please keep it civilized in the comments.

[@Tholuc98]

Why did u make it? Do u feel like it was needed?

[@func_e]

The fact that you didn't want to, but still did, only goes to show that you care more than most people. This is why you're an inspiration to me :D

[@JonasTyroller]

@@Tholuc98 I was hoping to get the conversation started and to get some more people out of their "denial" or "unawarness" phase.

[@benyoungblade]

I think you bring a great perspective to this conversation. Lots to think about here, thank you!

[@SuperCaitball]

no i will not

[@Joomsan]

Me: Can you make a profitable game? Ai: Can you? Me: *Cries

[@AliMusllam]

😂😂

[@powerthepower1363]

Lmaoooooo

[@Desh681]

Is that a iRobot reference lol

[@williamriisager8994]

This shouldn't stop anyone from making games

[@JonasTyroller]

Agreed.

[@fourlion_everywhere]

True

[@Adam-kk7nw]

​@@JonasTyrollerI'm scared

[@theguywiththewhiteblanket]

Because no matter what, you can show people what games used to be

[@Driendel]

AI content has a flaw: it can only generate content while human content exists. Future AI-generated content will need to be "flagged" somehow so that future AIs don't use it as reference. otherwise, stagnation will happen, since the AIs will be caught on a loop of self-feeding information. and when they are flagged as AI and easily recognized, people will dismiss them, filter them out if possible.

[@lennyphoenixc]

Absolutely loving the more journalistic, long-form videos. This was really fascinating!

[@JonasTyroller]

Happy you found it interesting.

[@lgdmumbler7026]

Your advice around 1hr3m hits the nail on the head for me: from a rational standpoint, there are already humans and massive corporations capable of making games I'll never be able to make, working in teams hundreds of people strong. If the point that I won't be able to keep up with AI is a dealbreaker, it would have already been in play in the face of those super-talented individuals or massive production studios. AI being widely accessible could theoretically level the playing field a fair bit.

[@sepiar7682]

As a "youngster" who kinda had that existential mess you talked about toward the end of the video back when gpt-3.5 first came out, the thing about why bothering to learn anything anymore, your message about finding a way to enjoy learning, and finding a profession you would want to do even if you didn't have to, hit directly on what I eventually came up with for myself. Funnily enough, playing Outer Wilds right then, among other things, also showed me that I could find learning fun, it just had to be the right thing. Since then, I think I've found a study I truly enjoy and would pursue even if I won the lottery tomorrow (though probably a little bit more relaxed about it haha). And just in time for College Applications here in the US no less! While I'm lucky that it's nuclear physics, a generally respected and well paying pursuit, I hope anyone else like me reading this finds something like that for themselves, no matter what it is. We're gonna have an interesting next few decades! Anyway, good video, thanks Jonas!

[@Wishbone_Games]

Haven't finished the video yet but I wanna say I really appreciate you making a video like this, just to at least get us thinking about the future and not be so surprised when all this stuff inevitably becomes reality

[@JonasTyroller]

Yes, agreed. The discussion oh this has to get started.

[@OxygenBeats]

what if AI turns out to be absolute garbage and actually, you are so surprised after all because you thought all these predictions would become reality?

[@elzu4918]

It feels so good to hear someone such wise talk. This propably made so many people think again and widen their toughts :)

[@JonasTyroller]

I hope so. I hope so.

[@ITR]

The problem isn't really the ability of AI though, but the unethical sourcing of training data EDIT: ah, seems like some of the later chapters might talk about it? Let me check them out

[@hawns3212]

Very glad to see someone else voicing the concerns I've been thinking for over a year now.

[@JonasTyroller]

Yes, discussions on this need to get started asap. I agree.

[@hawns3212]

@@JonasTyroller unfortunately this concept has kind of consumed me into a depression blocking me from any desire for creative work. It's so hard to get the motivation to work when I know I'll be out of a job in a few years time. I just graduated last year, two months before chatgpt was released and I have a job currently but I am so demotivated to improve and work on new skills

[@TriburosOnline]

Being someone who makes video content and has been for the past like 8 years, I've been learning various different skill sets to augment my abilities. The most recent avenue I've gotten into being 3D animation and some slight modeling. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a bias against A.I lmao. Generally I think there's two reasons why anyone decides to learn how to do anything. The first is - obviously - to earn a wage. The second is to have an impact in society in some way or another. Leaving your mark, so to speak. Any job does this honestly, no matter how small. In regards to creative mediums like music, art, games, ect, that impact is you showing and telling a story to the world. And A.I, kinda takes both of those reasons away. Or atleast it will. You mentioned how you believe that there will always be an audience for games made by human hands. And whilst I agree to some degree, it's only on a very, very small level that I do, and I seriously doubt that it'll last. I believe that over-time, more and more people who are stubborn and refuse to engage with A.I will be converted one way or another. I think the biggest factor that'll drive that, is these people seeing *everyone else* convert. The more people engaging in something, the more an individual wants to engage with it themselves - that's just how our brains work. I think there *will* be hold outs of people that only care for human made titles, but it'll at some point shrink to such an insignificant number of people that it just won't matter. I'm not saying that like "Oh, art only matters if *thousands* of people see it!" No, what I mean is that the majority of media will be made with A.I, meaning future generations will thus be more likely to grow up with A.I generated creations and have less attachment to human made creations. Which results in that generation adopting A.I more, shrinking the already small pool of human 'purists'. Their next generation will grow up with even fewer human made content, be raised with even more A.I created content, and the cycle will repeat. This is the part for me that's the hardest to accept. Because when I make something in a creative medium, it's because I want to share my thoughts or feelings in a unique way besides just writing down words onto a sheet of paper. And I think the reason people feel the need to go to lengths *besides* just speaking their mind, is because to do so in a skill set that not everyone has, makes it more special. But when that threshold is reached - where the vast, vast majority of people prefer A.I generated content, and where anyone can get to an A.I to do something by just *talking to it*, a skill set with a skill ceiling about as high as a slice of bread - there will be far, far less reason for anyone to pay attention to whatever it is that you may have put your soul into. No one will care about each others arts or work. Because A.I will nullify the vast majority of effort that would have otherwise gone into creating it. When everyone is super, no one is. At that point, creating entertainment media in any form will be almost pointless. It won't earn you a living (though, hopefully you won't NEED to work to have an enjoyable life by that point), and any stories that you'd want to tell would be drowned in an ocean of A.I content. And hell, your idea would probably already be created anyway. Like a Library of Babel situation. Of course, everyone has different motivations for learning things. Money, to help people, to entertain people, ect. Heck, I'm sure some people like learning skill sets purely to say that they *know the skill set.* But for me, as I said, I like learning creative skills mainly to express myself to other people. And that motivation I believe, is on the chopping block. Generally, I consider myself an optimistic person - in general, outside of the talk of AI, I think the future is bright. Even though I think most people think the opposite. But A.I and its relation to creative mediums is one aspect of the future that I am deeply worried about. I like creating things, but other than being able to live off of that, the biggest reason why I do so is for other people. And the opportunities to create our visions and have that mean something, are slowly closing. And it's unfortunate to exist in the time where we remember when those doors were wide open, when it'd probably be best to exist when the doors have since been closed fully long ago, or in a time where you wouldn't have to worry about them closing in your lifetime. I often see people say that opinions like mine are overreactions, and will point to historical technology evolution for examples as to why. Things like the camera, steam engines, automatic letter presses, ect. But there's two huge, *huge* difference between those past examples of growth, and A.I: 1st, all of those things, still required *skilled* human input to function. 2nd, Not only is A.I's endgame to be as easy to use as possible to operate, but A.I can even *use it's self.* The latter being the biggest difference between all other innovations we've seen. Seriously think about that for a moment: this is the first time in history, that **something other than a human**, is being able to work with human interfaces in a coherent manner. THAT'S the difference here. But, we gotta count our blessings. For now, there's still plenty of time and plenty of reason to learn new things and not worry about it being wasted time.

[@AmineOuldKaci]

You forgot the fact that in order to write good stories an in order to make an impact on people you'll need to pierce their emotions, to go way deep. There is no concept art in the louvre museum, but there is The Monalisa. AI can not and will not feel. Not now anyways. And in order to really really create art like in movies or music you'll need human emotions. Games however are not an art. I don't see how an STR can move me or even a cheesy resident evil storyline. (Even that has its own likeable characters.) It would be so difficult to replicate with AI. So no. Don't worry. Plus, you have to sell yourself in your art, it has to have your soul. It's not something you do. It's something you are.

[@hencefox]

THIS IS INSANE QUALITY Thank you Jonas, you definitely know what you're talking about - I've never seen this topic demonstrated and explained this well

[@JonasTyroller]

Happy to hear it. I gave it my best.

[@johanavril1691]

You always surprise me Jonas I'm extremely impressed by how well-made this video is Among the probably hundreds of video I've watched about AI over the years, this might be straight up the best one in terms of "general" quality the way you separated what is true and real now and your speculations was perfect focusing on a small part of the discussion instead of trying to just put everything in there was just brilliant and the way you communicated what makes this not depressing to you and why it doesn't have to be depressing was done perfectly

[@endermars2156]

I really like this 1h long videos. They are very fun to watch, informative and make you think for a bit. I'm looking forward to see more of this type of videos in the future.

[@JonasTyroller]

I'll keep doing these if good opportunities for them arise.

[@SkylerLinux]

In the '60s we imagined that in the far future of the 2000s will have machines doing the hard mundane labour leaving Humans Leisure and to make the "Uniquely Human" things like The Arts. In 2020s we have Als to make The Arts so that we can focus on our Mundane mindless grunt work

[@Matthew_Fog]

I believe AI games and Human made games will be like Factory made pottery and Homemade pottery.

[@HeraldOD]

Very nice comparison, I feel the same way. I feel like AI generated games will just feel stale and repetitive, like AI art does today. AI art that people like is usually a mish-mash of famous artstyles but looks so samey imo.

[@willhart2188]

@@HeraldOD The reason it looks samey is people in the west seem to prefer more realistic style, and are often limited to one models like Midjourney or Dall-E. With local version of stable diffusion you can train or download any number of specialized models, and combine them as you like. Setting a simple flat color style model to negative can add detail to any image for example, or you could get one model for character, and mix it with another one for pose. I also prefer more abstract style models since they are more expressive and flexible.

[@JonasTyroller]

I love that analogy.

[@JonasTyroller]

@@HeraldOD Yet there is room for both.

[@HeraldOD]

@@willhart2188 oh cool!!

[@willhart2188]

Also instead of text to speech, you can voice the lines by yourself, and then convert that to the voice you want. That way you can make it sound more expressive.

[@mikuuu165]

Your videos about AI are top notch of the quality, please keep doing those longer videos every once in a while and I'm praying to youtube algorithm to bless you for them :)

[@JonasTyroller]

When I spot a topic that 1) I know enough about 2) That deserves it 3) Is not talked about enough I will.

[@isto_inc]

I deeply appreciate you creating these types of videos. No one else has added this much context to such a "game changing" (heh) topic. Great video

[@souporwormgaming]

I agree that black and white thinking is dangerous, and I how cool the pros of AI would be, but I think I am more negative than you on it. If I were to guess why, it is most likely because I am only working on my first 'real' game right now, but you have already been able to make three in a mostly AI-less world. For that reason I can't help but feel pretty angry at AI, because my whole life I have slowly been getting interested in game dev, learning game dev, and pouring my heart and soul into a project just for AI to pop out of nowhere and rob me of the only chance in my life to be a game developer that can actually make people care. Now here I am, after all of that, wondering if I should just give up if nobody even cares but me (that is, if I even do care--maybe it is about the destination). Nice video.

[@madawson900]

This video changed my mind in many ways on this topic. Thank you. My thought I wanted to add is that AI outputs are not always perfect. So when you take the approach of agents and actions, each AI output might have some sort of error, and when you have a lot of AI calls that all rely on the previous outputs, the error will propagate and compound. Even if you use AI to check it's own outputs, who's to say the checker wont hallucinate or have errors itself. I could easily see this being a fatal flaw of AI when making anything really complex. The ways to fix this in my mind is to improve the quality of AI outputs to make them better, or decrease the number of generations you do to decrease the error propagation. Improve the quality of AI is already happening, but defining what 'better' means is a hard problem that I think might have to be solved on a per action basis. So I see this taking a lot of time and effort to get right. Decreasing the number of generations, however, would also likely reduce the quality of the game it makes.

[@JonasTyroller]

Another way to potentially solve this would be "agent swarms". So instead of having one agent carry out an action you can just have multiple agents carrying out the same task independently from each other, and then voting on the best solution at the end. This is just one example but there are many ideas for such architectures that decrease the rate of error. If you think about it, humans are quite error prone, too. Yet, with the correct checks and balances and a mixture of internal and external feedback, we manage to be quite reliable. We're not all that reliable on our own if you remove all of our tools and our touch to external feedback, though.

[@itsMeKvman]

Wow. I was worried about this but thought it would happen in the far future. You explaining how it would be an architecture with different AIs working together seems very plausible now that I think about it. What if AI not only makes games personalized to you, but adjusts those games in real time as you play them if it finds something is un-fun for you? (This comment was totally definitely written by an actual human being.)

[@Kaarssteun]

man. Just 17m in and already know you're spot on - Many people miss small details when thinking about this. It leads them into a false sense of security - which is normal, humans are scared of sudden change. But the potential for good here is so immense. Extremely excited for the future. Edit after finishing: Yeah. Spot on man. You put this into words so well - exactly my thought processes too. The future will be wild, and we're along for the ride!

[@junyong0716]

i think everyone has "false sense of security" you just mentioned, but in a much broader sense. what make humans.... humans? we are just brains, a network connected with electric signals. its gonna get simulated anytime soon. we are gonna have a REAL issue when AI threatens our entire identity, not just our jobs. huge accomplishment of evolution perfected through millions of years. are we really sure humans are precious beings, even when there is an Ai functionally exactly same?

[@l4kr]

​@@junyong0716 What you're saying has zero basis in reality and shows you know nothing about any given technology. Also, you're heavily underestimating the adaptability of humans (something AI will never achieve, atleast not with the current binary technology). If AI takes over jobs, more jobs will be generated. Most notably the entertainment industry. If AI takes over identities, more people will eventually learn to recognize false patterns.

[@limo_was_here]

one thing that i think is also important to realise, growing dependancy on ai also means growing dependancy on these massive corporations. do we really want more companies like adobe to have control over the creative process?

[@JonasTyroller]

That is very high up on my list of worries, too. I think instead of accepting universal basic income we should probably try to aim for some kind of shared ownership model over automated productivity. Gonna be a tough fight, though, and also a game design challenge: Like how do you ensure there are good incentives to keep developing automation technologies while also socializing most of its profits? Is that even a model that could work? I hope so but in all honesty I have not the slightest clue.

[@HeraldOD]

Good point!

[@ScalarYoutube]

Just thought id chip in about the whole "playtesting AI" thing. My concern is that this AI will have to be very carefully balanced to be both bad enough at a game to mimic a human playing it, and good enough to be able to actually complete the game in a meaningful way. Remember also, AIs generally have drastically shorter thinking times than we do, and any AI designed to play games will likely need a variable delay between what happens on the screen and its response. This process of dumbing down the AI just enough to emulate that of a human player is what I think will be incredibly difficult. Especially since no two humans are the same. You will need potentially hundreds if not thousands of different models with varying characteristics to paint an accurate picture of the game from a human perspective. In fact, it might be best in the meantime to just straight up outsource that process to humans and have AI agents play in tandem to analyse the differences between real human playtesters and emulated ones.

[@epsilonray]

Here is my Idea on how to achive automatic playtesting and feedback: Step 1: Implement a function to the game that returns all possible actions the player could take at any point in time, based of the state of the Game Step 2: In a predetermined intervall like 1 second, pause the game and let an AI decide what action to take next, given all possible actions in this gamestate Step 3: In order to make meaningfull decitions, the AI has to be given context like a screenshot of the game, context about previous decitions of the AI, a general desciption of the game, more context about the gamestate like the level its playing etc. Step 4: Repeat this process for some amount of time like 1 hour Step 5: Ask a new AI to analyse a replay of the game and provide feedback on how to improve the game

[@ansel569]

part of the new SAG agreement is limitations on AI and protection of human writers jobs and work, and I think that is something more industries should think about (and why unions are important).

[@JonasTyroller]

Unions are important, agreed. I would very much like such important decisions and developments be subject to democratic rule. That being said, this seems like a very complex issue. There is a cost to pursuing progress, but there are also costs for not pursuing progress. For example I feel like the economic incentives for not loosing your job may be tainting the conversation at hand a bit at the moment. Individual interests vs common interests may be another moral aspect to consider here. I don't actually have any solid opinions or answers on this, it just seems like a fairly complex matter when I glance at it.

[@romanglinnik8073]

I think the best way everyone of us can already use AI for (in terms of gamedev) is brainstorming. It helps having someone to talk to about your ideas and at least on a technical level (e.g. figuring out how to structure mechanics etc.), talking to an AI makes you think in a loop. And even if the AI output is mostly useless (which it mostly is), the output of your brain is not

[@romanglinnik8073]

Studies show that AI is only helpful when you think they are, so basicaly using an AI for basic moves like that helps your mind find its own solutions. It's just a trick. Still I have no doubt that AI will be used for more such as asset creation

[@romanglinnik8073]

My guess as to why that can work is that AI often times presents your input as the output but in a different structure. You gain a different perspectie and that helps bring the information you already have in the back of your mind to the forefront.

[@AllgoodthingsTv]

Watched this entire video. Great, even-handed points about the coming AI revolution. Games will rapidly become more impressive over the next few years. And all of these devs recently laid off by the big publishers will now be able to compete with super high quality games with the interference of upper management only interested in profits. Yes there will be a lot garbage to sift through at first but excellence will rise to the top.

[@TomCrowKid]

I think this „final straw“ of saying that AI can‘t feel doesn‘t make a big difference, because if you would create 2 black boxes, one with a human and one with an AI, and would ask both what emotions would feel like, you probably could not tell in which of these 2 boxes the human or the AI is. You could claim that chatGPT would be able to pass the Turing test.

[@Lioni177]

My favorite game dev on youtube, inspiring in many ways. Algo comment

[@Heiwirt]

I think many people underestimate the power of AI. A few months ago nobody thought AI could make music, and now it does. (And it's not bad at all) I wish people would look up what exponential growth means. If there are no rules in place soon and things slowly go away from being Open Source, we will have even more Companies that have nobody to hold them back.

[@joppemin]

genuinely suprised how AI implementation is way further ahead than I thought, thanks for showcasing all this Jonas, often look at twitter communities where people are just noping out about everything AI related but it's better to be hyperaware of the advancements than to be too late when it eventually does take over jobs/influence your hireability.

[@holybiscuits7714]

I absolutely loved your take on the whole AI thing in general. As a musician and artist at heart, I recall watching a Jacob Collier podcast, Jacob being perhaps one of the greatest musical and creative minds in human history, in which he expresses excitement for the future; we will reach an age in which there will no longer be a barrier between having an idea, and materializing the idea. We will all be able to think something, and have it exist with the press of a button. A genius, who devoted his entire life to understanding music and honing his technical abilities to a level above even the greatest musicians, welcomes with open arms the possibility that others will be able to reach his level in an instant. I feel the same way as Jacob about the AI revolution; this won't be the end of human creativity. It will be the beginning of a new age in which creative minds won't be limited by their technical skills or the time they have. Assuming we change our governing and economic systems to remove the necessity of work, our children can be born into an age in which they are truly free, and have access to the most powerful creative tools we have ever created. As for me, it won't feel as though I had wasted time learning music, or art, or coding, or science or math. Building understanding, and being in the process of creation and discovery is one of the truest joys. I had previously been in the boat of fearing AI a lot. Because I'd thought that I had learned these skills, in order to prove that I am better than others. I thought that I did everything in order to prove myself to others, and to my ego. Who would I be in an age where I am no longer special? I think it's time for more of humanity to realize that we do so many of the things we do merely to protect who we think we are.

[@NoVIcE_Source]

basically to become unstoppable, you only need to remember to learn from your mistakes instead of giving up

[@GameDevYal]

I've basically never been able to use a stock asset without doing some manual touch-ups, so from an "AI as a tool" POV I'm not super worried - consistency isn't even there yet with fully human-made stuff and AIs still are catching up to humans, and things fitting together properly is more important than quality in a vacuum.

[@JonasTyroller]

Yes, yes, yes. Fully agree. I also really liked the "asset flip" comparison one of the featured comments made. I just wonder at which pace AI development will continue. The last year has been crazy... oh we shall see.

[@krystofjakubek9376]

There is a thing I would really like to mention: just because AI can or does do something, doeant make humans doing it obsolete or not wanted. If we take a look at any form of art what so ever this clearly is true (and yes I believe games are a form of art). Why are there orchestra players when we can "just play the recording"? Why do people still paint realistic landscapes when we can just take a photo? Why do people still write poems when we can have them AI generated? You can give a variety of reasons but the main two are just: 1) we just like doing those things 2) we want to comunicate something very specific through the art. For both of those cases AI doesnt change anything. Let look more closely at 2. Lets say you have a very specific idea about something so you are writing a blog. In that case you definitely wouldnt want AI to just write it for you, or make the thing 5 times as long. You just want to comunicate what you had in mind as clearly and consicely as you can. Maybe you would even feed portions of the text through some ai to spell check it, improve some wording of a tricky sentence but you definitely wouldnt want the AI to write the whole thing. And this really showcases why AI will never (yes I am certain here!) replace artists, because fundamentally we (at least I) just care about what other people have to say. Here I mean "true" artists ie. people comunicating something we care about not just people who happen to be making images, music or videogames.

[@lFunGuyl]

Jonas! I dont think you need to apologize for only including your own opinion in your video essay on AI! We watch your channel to hear your opinion. If we dont like it, we can go somewhere else. Or talk about it in comments.

[@darkopeninger1915]

As a game developer, I think a lot about what the future of AI will look like, even a year or two from now. So I really enjoyed hearing your ideas. You make a lot of sense. In a fully automated stage, when AI is better than us at everything, the only valuable jobs will be the ones where other humans prefer it was made by a human. For me, some of my favorite book authors would lose 100% of their value if their work was written by AI. The reason I like Abercrombie or Bukowski is that I can connect to the human experience they're writing about, so being written by AI would mean nothing, no matter how good it was. With games, it's not so direct. I agree that some games will probably be 99% AI-made, and nobody will care. But as indies, there will definitely be space for personal games. Anyhow, thanks for the video. I really appreciate you sharing your ideas and thoughts. I'd love to see another one as AI tools keep progressing.

[@calebgilbertyt]

I'm 16 years old studying computer science and maths with the intent to study computer science in university and get my hands dirty in the gamedev industry. I've been playing around with making games for the past 4 years ish and I can't imagine doing anything else. Before watching this video I was really naïve towards this topic... I knew that AI will most likely become the future, and I've played around with chat gpt, but I had no idea it would accelerate so fast. But besides how scary it may seem, I'm definitely still set on the same future for myself, if anything more excited for the rate the indie gamedev industry is going to accelerate due to these tools. Thank you so much for the really well put together information Jonas!

[@cripplebum4792]

You mention AI can play games on a superhuman level, but we'd kinda need it to be on a human level. Would AI be able to tell if something is too easy or too hard, for example? I guess its feasible that AI would create a videogame, but even with the broken down steps, it just seems like such a mammoth task that we just cannot predict if it's at all viable yet. I am slightly optimistic when it comes to indie development though, because - think of AAA games. They have a million times more resources than indie games, yet indie games still thrive and AAA studios aren't as big of a competition as it seems like they should be. I think people would want AI to generate AAA level games, because that's what the masses ask for. Another thing is - if anything, I think AI could make dopamine-loop esque games. More subjective, niche, creative games are a way trickier task, as AI is usually made to be as generic as possible.

[@JonasTyroller]

Yeah, those are some very good points and I also fully agree that things remain entirely unpredictable for now.

[@zentoa]

Im glad you are bringing light to this. As someone who is going to be in the games workforce, it was something that worried me when choosing to take it as a proffession. But i chose the fun i get from it over how stable it could be. Luckily having fun is something AI likely imo wont feel within my life. My only worry is that when I show my game off to the world, no one will see it. Even though i enjoyed it, it will still feel like a kick in the teeth seeing all the crazy good games AI can make and how puney and rubbish game. Even though it wouldn't be, it would be the fact that a 3 year project I could have generated with a single click.

[@DEVUnstuck]

This vid , much like your others on AI, is insanely good. The experiments & demos to support your predictions is my favorite part. Thanks for sharing!

[@stellanovaluna]

I personally think that it's not desirable for AI to make any art pieces. Most artists, including authors, designers, drawers, and musicians have had their works stolen to train generative AI without their consent, and I do personally believe that game creation is also a form of art. Also, just recently, with the release of The Amazing Digital Circus, there have been people going against the wishes of the voice actors and training AI to sound exactly like them without their consent, which feels understandably violating and terrifying to them. I like to write fantasy stories, poetry, and draw, and I intend to start game development myself soon. I, just like most other artists, personally do not consent to AI using my drawings, writings, and games to train itself, and neither do any of my artist friends. In addition to this, even without these ethical concerns, AI-created works feel soulless and devoid of life. Kwebblekop tried this, and his videos really feel like there's no thought or effort put in. AI-generated art is riddled with errors and flaws, and they always choose the most cookie-cutter approach to generating their images. Often, all surfaces and materials within them look like they're made of plastic, even in the examples you showed in the video of Dall-E 3. It's the same with AI-generated stories, which I have tried to use for inspiration for my own short stories, (just to give me ideas and get out of a writer's block,) but that I found to be devoid of life. All AI animations that I've seen have all been terrible, with the exception of Corridor's questionably ethical Anime Rock Paper Scissors, which is only slightly well-made because there are humans behind it that write, tweak, and act out everything. AI games will be no different: devoid of life and not fun to play. Even if they are, I believe in supporting the works of humans who actually put effort in and made everything themselves rather than some AI that was trained to do it for them. Overall, I'm not happy about AI coming after artists, and I don't support any efforts of AI or the people using it to create works of art: be it drawings, writings, animation, game creation, or any other form of artistry. I do support AI tools that just help you along as you form your creative vision, just so long as it isn't used in excess. Generative AI is what I have the most beef with. This is, of course, just my opinion, and I do believe that most opinions, in general, are completely valid, and that it's okay to disagree.

[@stellanovaluna]

I wrote this before watching the video, and as I watch further, I am editing it and adding more things.

[@tarwin]

One of the best discussions, even if it was with yourself, on the future of AI in creativity.

[@JonasTyroller]

Appreciate it.

[@charliesumorok6765]

ChatGPT just predicts a conversation between 2 entities, you and ChatGPT.

[@qu765]

on the curve at 43:50, I think that LLM are getting close to the top. If they weren't I would say that we would have AI generated games definitely in

[@Invisiblemindself]

I can't emphasize enough how much I needed this video. I was thinking about this subject for a long time

[@NeoNthriller]

I took me a while to start watching this. I thought Ok lets just watch the first 10 minutes, but ended staying for the full 67 minutes. This video should have way more views. Thanks for the insights Jonas

[@xslashsdas]

12:46 Just want to point out that the cost of computation WAS going down fast, but there were, in fact, MANY signs of slowing down. Moore's law is the best example. We are pretty much hitting the transistor size cap already and won't have much faster hardware in at least like 20 years when quantum computing starts actually working (maybe!!!!!!)

[@tritonmame1282]

I agree that AI can't understand fun, but can predict what we like. But how good are these predictions really? Google has the most data on us and some of the best algorithms, yet how many videos from the youtube homepage are immediately interesting to you? I personally maybe add one to the WL playlist. Now imagine that you have to spend several hours on such a suggestion. The success rate would be negligible. And besides, something great can't be created by catering to our general tastes. I could never imagine my favourite games if they didn't exist.

[@JonasTyroller]

Google is surprisingly very much behind on AI I feel like. If you gave ChatGPT a description of what you like and a list of videos, it would do a much better job recommending the correct videos to you. I doubt the YT algorithm "understands" humans the same way modern LLMs do. Give it some time. ;) "I could never imagine my favourite games if they didn't exist." That is true. We'll have to wait and see if some of our surprise favorites will be made by AI at some point.

[@petersmythe6462]

"it does not feel disappointment. It does not feel frustration." It can certainly express and understand those emotions. Like tell it to do running commentary as it plays the bumping into every wall game and tell me that *the AI's persona* is not frustrated?(regardless of whether the network itself is)

[@thegamedevcave]

one huge issue with AI generated art, espcially interactive art like games comes down to 2 things for me, which are closely related: #1 intent. art, by definition has intent behind it, you choose do do certain things for certain reasons. AI simply spits out an average of it's learnset with some weight and randomness added from an input prompt (gross over simplification, I know but essentialyl that's what it does). which means it can, given enough skill in writing prompts and a large enough data set, reproduce things that have already been done, maybe even remix them but it can't make a well thought out decision. We like to project a human mind on these AIs because talking to them seems like such a human experience but they're not. Until way get AGI, it won't come up with a novel thought. Meaning it will always need an aritist to guide it along and do the important work of directing it every step of the way. #2 if there is anything I've learned from working in media (film, social media and games) , it is that consumers don't know what they want. they think they do and if we just give them an exact AI generated game based on their input (even assuming they could describe what they want in the first place, which a lot of people also can't do very well), it'll be cool as a novelty for a while but once that novelty wears off, it won't be able to compare to art made by a person who experimented, added their own thoughts to something and can hold a consistent direction and vision. In theory, all this could be done through A.I. but at this point we need to discuss what we mean by "made by AI" , do we count a game that is coded by AI, but with a story written by a human as made by AI? what level of human involvement is needed for something to not be labeled as made by AI? Because if the goal is to have a 1 sentence promopt that and end user can turn into a game, no I dont think that will ever happen. not due to any technological limitation but the limits of the users themselves. If you consider a game made by a developer who still leads their AI tools into a direction, has a vision and just uses AI tools to make all the assets and code, that will totally be a thing, I personally (like almost any youtube channel out there in this community) have tried that like a year ago, and while it was simple, with a few hours of messing about I was able to make a simple space invaders type game. In my day to day coding I use chatGPT all the time for bug fixing and i've started using github co-pilot to help me write code faster. all amazing tools. but that's just it, they are tools for a develop to use, not something that'll autonomously will create a full game I think. In the coming years, game development is going to get a lot easier and more accessible for newcomers though, which will result in a lot of crappy half made games, but it's not like we don't have that already as it is. I dont doubt that AI tools will also help develop some of the most fantastic games of the next decade though, but again, as lead by a human being or a team of human beings. AI is here to assist us, not do the work for us. (which gets into a whole ethics duscussion about job loss due to AI which is a real thing but this comment is long enough as it is so i'll hold back on that XD)

[@JonasTyroller]

Some pretty fantastic thought. I love it. Just to maybe challenge you on those perspectives a little bit: #1: While image generation does not show "intent", yet, I would argue that text generators do. They seem to "get it" more and more. E.g. You can use chain of thought to make them generate more reliable outputs etc. which makes them express their intent before they write the final answer. So we could once again argue if that's just a stochastic parrot speaking or not, but the result is the same. It expresses intent. And it'll get better and better at doing so, eventually carrying over to image generators. We're starting to see that with Dall-E3 actually cause if you use it in ChatGPT it auto-generates the prompt for you, which already causes images to have a lot more intent than a pure image generation AI. We'll likely keep moving in that direction. #2: I agree that customers do not know what they want, but I don't see anything against AI playing that guessing game, too. In fact if AI turns out to be cheaper and faster, it'll be able to "guess" much more often than we do increasing its chances of being right with one of its guesses. Just some food for thought. Who knows how it's gonna play out...

[@thegamedevcave]

@@JonasTyroller I am still a bit 50/50 on the intent thing, but I am very open to be proven wrong about that in the coming years. I think that art that has meaning beyond a surface level requires human intent and maybe more specifically emotional intent. But that's all pretty vague, i'll admit that and seems like something that neuroscience also is working on, actually understanding the human brain. So in the very long term I do think you have a good point there! As for the Ai playing the guessing game on what a customer wants, that's a good perspective on it that I hadn't really looked at yet but making changes and irritating on new input, an AI is so much faster in than a human being could ever be, leveraging that aspect of things, a game with little to no developer but more or less purely made by it's play testers could be really exciting and fun to explore! I'm eager to see what the future brings either way!

[@vanessathomas9641]

On the "feelings" part. It begs the question if there even is ultimately a difference between faking it or not.

[@Jari_FenixEXP]

I think game developer like you Jonas will be in much better position going forward because you have a huge group of people who are invested in you personally. So it doesn't matter if AI could make epic games by itself today, because there will always be an audience that wants to play a game made by Jonas Tyroller. Part of a reason I am planning to invest in building a community around my game dev studio also going forward.

[@AAAAGamesGames]

Sooooo... Squid will start his gamedev career?

[@JonasTyroller]

Welcome to OpenAI devday. Today we are excited to announce... Squid... The evil killer AI that will kill you all. Oh yeah... and he will also make video games. Have fun y'all!

[@mrvaleryhugo]

To me the simple fact that some jobs are going to be replaced before others makes it clear that its not "everybody problem": people replaced later will be able to defend their position while people that have no jobs will basically begging for help. My prediction is that concentration of wealth will only get worse. Other than that important point you made a lot of nice pragmatics points.

[@jowanspooner8733]

Thank you very much. While this video was focused on gamdev, it also gives a really good perspective on the future as a whole. For me this opened up a lot of "wow, this will apply to X as well..." kind of realizations. Your concluding thoughts were very well put together, completely agree that once we get to the point where AI can make games on it's own, so much about our relationship to AI and ourselves must have changed, gamedev is the least thing to worry about. I'm lucky I'm only in this for the fun, so it's less of a worry for me, but I feel for everyone who feels threatened, it's not a nice feeling to have. Very much appreciate your overview, predictions and thoughts on this, Jonas!

[@ReaperCH90]

Your fully automated end-scenario makes for a great cyberpunk setting. Maybe an idea for your next AI supported game after Thronefall ;)

[@Lorenzo_G_C]

It's amazing how exponential growth surprised everyone, I thought AGI would happen at the earliest at 2035, and I thought that already was almost unfeasable, now I genuinely belive at the latest it will emerge in some aspect by 2026 or 2027 probrably earlier, and yet I'm still afraid I'm wrong but not because I'm predicting earlier than I should, but because I think I may be being to conservative whit my predictions.

[@lubba64]

Very well made video. By far the most in depth and well produced video i have seen on the subject

[@baronvonbrunn8596]

People still get into creative projects knowing about all the others that can do or already have done similar things and are often better at it. Many are mostly fine with this, so what does it matter if computers can outcompete us as well if competition might not even be the point of it all?

[@OhMeGaGS]

This is partially why I'm really happy game development is just my side hobby, and not my career. I am fully convinced AI will replace a lot of game devs, maybe not all but a lot of them for sure.

[@benpmoon]

I'm only halfway through the video right now but in my opinion the hardest thing will be to make unique games. Sure, AI might be able to make a bunch of great games, but I think they'll all feel same-y. Some of my favourite games (Outer Wilds and Rain World are two) have really weird design choices that go against traditional design principles and in most video games would be considered bad, but is good because of the vision the creator(s) had. I feel like a lot of what AI comes up with will be similar to Triple A games these days, where they all feel extremely generic.

[@Atropos148]

Im thinking about this a bit more, AI would never design a Dark Souls game, it has too many frustrating elements for AI to decide it's a "fun" game...i totally agree with you, human-made will be a tag on Steam, and will have weirder, more experimental games

[@colecube8251]

I could see simple flash game AI's being a possible very soon, and slightly longer games (say, puzzle platformer with 10 levels or something) being possible in 1-2 years. However, I think anything bigger than that is still very far away. Unless context windows get increased massively, there are too many steps that are too complicated for an AI to figure out. And fixing bugs could be a nightmare, or near impossible to fix, as the project gets bigger. Thank you for your advice / outlook towards the end of the video. I've definetely felt scared and demotivated due to ai. What you said is great to counter that.

[@humble-hedgehog]

Really well balanced opinion piece. Thanks for taking the time to put down your thoughts while steering clear from the easy clickbaity "hot takes".

[@darrellwilcox285]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are heading this way as a whole and we need to be reafy. We cant deny it or ignore it. Be ready or be left behind

[@FlatThumb]

My prediction is that that next BIG company like Pixar is going to be 3 people.

[@RobLang]

I agree with your take. I probably think it's nearer than you do. Delighted to see you rediscover Turing computability (machines processing their own code). It can do that much faster than humans. The recursive loops you're talking about can be done in minutes as game speed doesn't matter to computers, it's actually completely abstract concept to machines as a whole (Turing machines can't boil me an egg). Where the current focus is on text as an input to training, the next AI input training step will be realtime video. Could be a camera feed, game output, mobile phone camera, etc. Then you're learning full motion video. I don't think that's needed for making games, your process loops should be enough but that will be the end game because the data density of video is much greater than text. Naturally, that won't be used in isolation, it'll be text, audio, etc.

[@SignificantOwl]

We wanted AI to do the boring stuff, so we could focus on art and creation. Instead we get AI that does art and creation, and leaves the boring stuff to us.

[@Housri]

i think its really good that ai can make games or just help the progress of making games since it would lower first the budget required for making the game

[@lisamarlin9160]

Thanks Jonas - I got sent this video four months ago but I've been in the denial/unawareness stage when it comes to AI. This video definitely helped me to refine my perspective and hopefully move towards acceptance!

[@regalx1]

I watched a video called "The Game Dev Success Ladder with Chris Zukowski", and basically I think that as long as "social proof" is mandatory for games being wished listed on steam, AI will never succeed. And the reason is that because at best ,half of the gaming community will hate AI's guts, I've never seen an indie developer make it to the front page of steam where their games are being constantly reveiw bombed, and/or survive lack of exposure because social influencers were harrassed and threatened for "trying out" this new AI game. AI games will exists and people will play them, but they will never make money.

[@soul_abyss3854]

I think a major problem I have with the discussion around AI replacing artist and game developers is the scope of the discussion When AI has the ability to design like a human and therefore efectively replace Artists, that design skill relates to all use cases of AI, and therefore effects essentially every career in the world, (effectively AGI). Because of this I wish the discussion would transition to asking ourselves if we want to Automate our jobs away and if so what policies do we want to protect ourselves from this huge change AI will bring. Edit: Now that I finished the video I am thankful that u talked about it a bit near the end of the video. Very refreshing to see a non extreme opinion

[@JonasTyroller]

Yeah, this was a zoomed in perspective on game dev and its immediate surroundings. There is a lot more to talk about outside of that bubble. See David Shapiro's YT channel if you're not familiar with that already.

[@kernsanders3973]

As someone who has dabbled in making games and art. I love this tech, it allows me to aim much bigger than what I ever through one person like myself would accomplish. Of course like with ALL other industries the crux is gonna come in with tons of low effort entries flooding in, and studios screwing over their employees even more. It's not something the average user or devs of the tech can help at all. Those industries corporations were rotten to the core to begin with.

[@petint]

Imagine making a video game that generates itself as you play it. No two copies would be indentical, or heck. Let's just make it all into a pseudo-ininity universe where... No, wait that allready kinda exists in the form of No man's sky.

[@dreamisover9813]

This has been mindblowing, AI really has come far...

[@awogbob]

In the recursive loops section, you have a loaded question to the AI review it's main menu: you said what is the problem. Same with asking it to fix the code. I wonder what the results would be if you just asked a more neutral question. Even with goals I think the LLm struggle to evaluate results because they are not picky about the output their just giving their best guess at generating believable results.

[@JonasTyroller]

Well spotted. At the moment if you want any kind of useful feedback from the AI, you have to ask fairly tainted questions. ChatGPT has been trained on human evaluations for its answers which I think was a big yikes for its feedback giving capabilities in some ways. People usually like answers with compliments and positive affirmations much more, so ChatGPT has a strong tendency towards that at the moment. It sugar codes everything a lot, even if it has some feedback. So yeah, because of that, if you want some actually helpful feedback, you gotta go with the tainted questions. It's true. I hope they'll work that out. But even if it stays as is, the python script that creates your final game can use that kind of prompting, too, if it turns out to be necessary. You could probably make a fine-tune that resolves this problem already. It's just that the masses like the sugar coded answers that loves everything you do. :D

[@doormango]

This is a well-thought out and nuanced level-headed discussion. I appreciate your commitment to keeping the discussion two-sided and adding disclaimers of uncertainty. That said, I completely agree with you.

[@jonathanadamsson6201]

Imagine that the only thing you need to do to develop a game is to play it, the AI will quickly prototype and refine things, and the human can just say stuff like "The character is too fast". "The art style of the bushes doesn't fit with the trees", and the AI updates and the game hot-reloads instantly as you go I think I would like that approach because then I can still make the most of the creative decisions myself

[@moshmoshpitpit]

Absolutely solid video. It's really easy to see developers you once looked up to on, like, Twitter or whatever, and see them take antagonistic stances one way or another on this. I think at the end of the day it's a defense mechanism and there's some level of emotional charge. Not all of them are dumb (on either stance). Thank you for making this.

[@JonasTyroller]

The indie game dev scene did not have to deal with ethical discussions a lot before now. This seems like the first real trial how well we can manage the dispute. I hope well.

[@moshmoshpitpit]

@@JonasTyroller That's a good take I didn't consider. Feels like many are going through a lot all at once.

[@holybiscuits7714]

this video is so good... I did not expect this level of depth and insight. Amazing job!

[@codemonster8443]

I think Tom Scott's curve analogy is the best : 1. If we are at the end of the flux and it's about to taper : then we get some great tools. 2. If we are at the middle of it : then we get some super amazing tools and that's it again. 3. If we are at the beginning of the curve : then it's gonna change everything like how the internet grew from 90s into the 2010s

[@JonasTyroller]

Great way to look at it. Observing current momentum I put a high probability on 3 or 2...

[@rileyhawksworth8362]

I hope that AI wont go onto making full video games, but will end up being a tool that helps us create games.

[@JonasTyroller]

First tool, then replacement. The tool phase will be pretty fun, though, so good times ahead.

[@rileyhawksworth8362]

@@JonasTyroller indie game developer is an upcoming career choice for me. In about 4 years. So I hope it is still a tool then, and not a total replacement.

[@Valya_alyalya]

I made a game as a little university project, some of the stuff was made by the AI, thought some (smaller amount of) was made by a person, then i collected some feedback, and people liked most the parts made by a human - i think that happened due to the fact that an AI doesnt have the reasoning part. I think that AI will overtake all the boring part of development - it still replicates something that is on the internet - like starting from the movement script ending with dealing with bugs. I dont know why everybody imagines the future where there is rather a full-ai developed games or full-human made but not as a combined process where indie gamedevs dont spend endless nights trying to find and fixs endless bugs, but uses a button that fixes all the obvious bugs. In conclusion, it seems like every time a new progressive tech comes out that is probably capable of changing the world, and every time it just gets the work less repetative on more creative - i mean mathematichians didnt die out when wolfram came out)

[@SkylerLinux]

Regarding "You'll spend more time fixing the AI's bugs, than it will save you writing the code" I feel that's not a valid issue disregarding that ChatGPT fixed it's own bug. As most of the time programmers spend programming isn't really writing new code::it's debugging the code you just wrote, debugging the code somebody else wrote, and debugging that darn edge case that keeps getting reopened from like five users. "That works on My machine just fine, and all the computers I can test on; are you sure it's not something you're doing wrong?" Jokes aside, when programming the issues are figuring out how to do the thing, why the thing isn't working, and why the things are doing that when they touch. So clearly being able to reduce any of the three is kinda a big improvement. Hell despite arguments about i++ Vs ++i, we really don't even do much for Optimization as -03 does most of it.

[@Andreas_Constantinou]

I think that was an awesome video, very well made. Regarding the AI playing it's own games to test them, perhaps players themselves could do so. Could be an evolution of something like the current early access. The players could provide direct feedback, but the AI could also analyze the videos of players playing and statistics about their behaviors (how long they spend doing this and pressing these buttons etc etc) and thus do the recursive loop. Could even be a sort of an ephemeral job of the future in the transitional stage before AI can play its own games. Some sort of platform where someone logs in and gets fed games in development to try. Perhaps the algorithm of such a platform would suit what games to throw each player depending on what they have played and liked before (like the youtube recommendation algorithm).

[@Shamoart]

For people worried about being replaced. Yes AI can replicate "art", but art direction is still what drives something to be successful, so don't worry too much and work on your skills.

[@petersmythe6462]

"you lost. The goal was to run into every wall." There should probably be a Geneva convention against this...

[@blueboytube]

37:19 I think you might mean the syntax not the semantics right?

[@samhblackmore]

"Knowing how the sausage is made", this is interesting. I totally agree that art made by a human will be more compelling. And I want to relate to the art because in a sense I'm relating to the creator. Just like how following a game dev KZbin channel gives me a whole new appreciation for the game being made. But at the same time, I don't really care too much about all the technicalities. Like if you wrote a game in Assembly Language I would have some appreciation for that but I wouldn't necessarily enjoy it more than a game made in Lua or C# or something much easier to write. So if the code is written by AI I wouldn't mind. When it comes to models, animations, sprites, texture work, level design, dialogue, that's more where I care how the sausage is made. I think that's where the expressiveness of the developer really comes out

[@pterafier]

I'm definitely already generating code for my game. Granted I'm a beginner and I'm asking it how to accomplish basic tasks, but it's generally pretty solid regardless

[@thewoodworkingprofessor3651]

The depressing thing is that anything that we do to make our creative product more human the AI will be able to emulate and actually improve upon. This is an arms race that humans cannot win.

[@JonasTyroller]

Yes, I fully agree on the objective quality of the products that will be produced. I believe that people will subjectively care about how or who made a piece of art, though, and unless you scam people, you won't be able to emulate that. I imagine both will be able to co-exist.

[@visclo4782]

Wow, that was an amazing video, haven't seen such a good talk in a while. Thank you for making this Jonas

[@Jorrit_200]

I consider myself an AI optimist. There is, however, one thing I cannot get over. I consider the biggest strength of games, or any art, for that matter, that they are a shared experience. I know that what I experienced, my friends experienced as well, but in their own way. and we can talk about that experience, and we both learned something from it. I foresee a future where people will mostly generate their own games. But what does it even mean to reach level 80, in a game no other soul will experience?

[@pbrown7501]

You could share a generated game, for example, via a QR code that either redirects to a download or to the generation conditions and pseudorandom seed so that it can be replicated anywhere. There could then be aggregator sites on which people share their favorites. You basically only lose the ubiquity of the big hits and the ability to search or recognize by a simple name.

[@davidchartrand1033]

This video is insanely good and insightful. Very well made and entertaining as well. Good job! What a time to be alive.

[@prozacgodgamedev]

When you engaged the AI in a conversation about love, it strikingly demonstrated how people may underestimate AI's profound capabilities. The way AI correlates and processes information to mimic human experiences is particularly fascinating. By accessing and interpreting extensive data on love - its emotional nuances, human responses to various love-related scenarios like marriage, unexpected parenthood, or the complexities of betrayal - AI can generate responses that evolve along these conceptual pathways. This process, though opaque like a black box to us, is akin to the human method of building understanding from accumulated experiences and expectations. Over many iterations, this recitation of human-derived ideas allows AI to reach conclusions and exhibit behaviors remarkably similar to those of humans. Ultimately, this suggests that AI, through its advanced analytical and learning capabilities, can perform the same 'work' as a human in numerous situations, arriving at comparable end results. This realization not only underscores the sophistication of AI but also invites profound contemplation about the nature of intelligence and emotional understanding in both machines and humans.

[@NyQuilDonut]

AI helping video games get made could result in 500 hour open world RPG's being produced and polished in like two years. Maybe. I don't know what the limitations are, but maybe if AI could handle the bulk of the game development with humans writing the story and situations.

[@CreeperSlayer365]

This video reminds me of a joke I used to say in school when adults asked why I wanted to code. "Why do I want to be a programmer? Because when the machines take my job everybody else will be screwed."

[@H8KU]

I remember 20 years ago joking with people about the "make game for me" button, and it's nearly already a reality. It's not just about gamedevs making games to sell, it's about consumers being able to ask for the games they want to play, and give feedback on changes until it's perfect for what they want. That's what will really rugpull devs who do not adapt, that devs are soon not going to be necessary. The people downplaying this don't have a clue of what's reality already and what's inevitably coming next.

[@alpenjunge]

This accelerates my plan to bring a SNES Secret of Mana style game into this world.