YOU'LL CRASH WHEN WE TELL YOU! The Story of the Crashgate Scandal (2008-2009)

[@AidanMillward]

Great news: more 30% off stuff on the F1 store! Link in description. ☕️ and 🌊 apply and all that legal stuff. Code is F130, highly recommend the Merc hats cos the material is soft af.

[@nowind37]

when we get the oreca 07 vid aidan

[@michaelx4810]

The Glock thing is probably the most unhinged F1 conspiracy theory.

[@FlyingHellFish99]

Somehow Briatore returned

[@alaeriia01]

The hero we neither wanted nor needed, but the one we deserve.

[@TonySpike]

Next you will be telling me he flys now?

[@kevinprior3549]

​@alaeriia01 Could you explain that please?

[@alaeriia01]

@@kevinprior3549 Flavio Briatore is not the "hero" we wanted. He is not the "hero" we needed. He is, however, the "hero" we are being punished with; clearly, we have sinned greatly to be stuck with him.

[@magyare10]

"Number 2.. Im not a rapper... " LOL

[@thepolishnz]

He's not a rapper

[@robedmed7857]

Am I remembering correctly that in a practice session, or on his way to the grid, Piquet Jr spun at the same corner he was going to crash at? Almost a “practice” for the race.

[@Trek001]

Yes, he did it on the parade lap

[@WiisardNic]

And then his replacement during 2009, Romain Grosjean, crashed into the same corner in a practice session at the 2009 Singapore GP.. EDIT: I commented this before watching the whole video lol

[@terminateshere]

One fact that always seems to get glossed over: What's to say Ferrari wouldn't have messed up Massa's pitstop anyway? It was a failure of THEIR system, Massa would have stopped soon enough anyway. In any circumstance, the error would have dropped him out of the points - and Lewis might even have won in such conditions and 'Is That Glock?' would never have happened.

[@cillian303]

The system was new at the time and being manually operated for the first time that weekend. The system was put under unnecessary stress by all the cars coming into the pitlane when it opened after the safety car, which was caused intentionally by the Renault crash. "What's to say Ferrari wouldn't have messed up anyway?" isn't the question in this particular scenario (what's to say they would have without the safety car?) , it's "Should the system been under so much pressure in the first place?". There's a lot more details, what ifs and moving parts to the rest of the championship and the legal proceedings, which I think Aidan does a good job of covering in the other videos he's done on it, but I hope that answers your particular question.

[@terminateshere]

@@cillian303 I might have had sympathy had it been a race on a 'traditional' track with a known layout and practiced procedure. First ever race at a street circuit, first ever night race - everyone was expecting some kind of disruption. Not a good time to be trying a new procedure.

[@charamia9402]

This is - somehow - one of my favourite F1 stories. I never seem to be able to get my head around all the details and will probably rewatch this video several times in the future. As always brilliantly executed, mr Talking Head!

[@wabba67]

In my opinion, this is not just one of the worst scandals in F1, it is one of the worst sporting scandals in the history. Right up there with doping scandals at Tour de France and similar. I still find it baffling how Briatore is allowed anywhere near F1 these days...

[@Dr.Dawson]

He is making F1 look bad IMO.

[@F1wgp7]

Not only that but now that he is back his partner is waving the checkered flag at races for some reason...

[@mutleyeng]

I understand why he is allowed back in. That is a legal technicality. The issue is why has anyone hired him back in ... least of all Alpine - that's just taking the biscuit

[@chrisguardiano6143]

As a NASCAR fan in addition to F1, Crashgate reminds me a lot of a similar scandal that took place in NASCAR 5 years later at Richmond involving Clint Bowyer & Michael Waltrip Racing where Bowyer was accused of intentionally spinning out to force a caution to help his teammate Martin Truex Jr into the Chase. This accusation gained further credibility when it was revealed that Brian Vickers the 3rd MWR driver was ordered to pit after the restart by crew chief Ty Norris so that Jeff Gordon (who was battling Truex for the final spot in the Chase) would be screwed out of a good finish and be prevented from overtaking Truex in the standings. The spin by Bowyer was ruled not to have been intentional by NASCAR, however they also ruled that Norris had intentionally manipulated the race results & the championship through the intentional pit stop. As a result, MWR was fined $300,000, Truex was kicked out of the Chase (with Gordon taking his place) & Norris was indefinitely suspended. Also NAPA Auto Parts a long time MWR sponsor immediately terminated its sponsorship with the team as a result of this scandal. A side note on Piquet Jr, after everything that happened with Crashgate, he decided to enter NASCAR in 2010 where he largely struggled in the Truck Series & the Nationwide/Xfinity Series (and only one Cup Series start at Watkins Glen in 2014) though he did win at Road America in 2012 in the Nationwide Series.

[@tjroelsma]

Don't remember which class it was, but remember when Mario and Michael Andretti were both in the same race, when Mario got a message from the team saying "Michael needs a yellow" and he promptly drove into another car, causing a yellow flag? This is a very old trick.

[@calvinstraveldreams]

I remember Clint Bowyer’s interview after that race, and his attempts to lie and weasel his way out almost made me piss myself laughing 😂😂😂😂

[@dutchsailor6620]

The rapper comment is golden...

[@Torero2901]

"I am not a rapper" 😅

[@greyone40]

There's a whole lot of iffy language associated with that profession.

[@champmegahorse]

He’s not? Ya used me, Millward! Ya uuuuuuused me!

[@Torero2901]

@@greyone40 really? I live together with a rapper and we even composed a song together. I learned how to drive with ('white') Eminem blasting. What "iffy language" do you see?

[@greyone40]

@@Torero2901 Should I have said "blue"?

[@_NoDrinkTheBleach]

I remember thinking that crash was intentional the second it happened, and the other F1 fans I knew at the time thought I was being overly conspiratorial.

[@MarshallLeviathan]

Okay

[@tourmaline07]

It's a tribute to Nelsoninho Piquet that I didn't think there was anything untoward until after the race when it turned out too good for Fernando's strategy 😂

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

I was definitely thinking that it was "convenient" for Alonso. Much as I felt sorry for Massa given what happened in the pit lane, it was Ferrari... 🤷🏻‍♀️ But it still didn't pass the smell test when Alonso won. Mind, I've _never_ trusted Briatore!

[@arianwinanto6299]

Even Brundle was skeptical of the crash when it happened, he said it while commentating live

[@paulrnaylor]

Alonso must have known to agree for early pit stop

[@danielcwright]

Hi, I just want to say I really enjoy your videos, so thank you! Please keep up the good work! 🙂

[@MrSniperfox29]

I always think its interesting they call it a race fix since Alonso still had to go on and win from a long distance and anything could have "undone" their grand plan. More of "he gave Alonso a massive advantage" than a flat out race fix

[@tombardsley3081]

It was a race fix. Alonso was never in contention to win that race before Piquet’s crash.

[@MrSniperfox29]

@@tombardsley3081 And yet, as I said, the crash did not guarantee he would still win

[@tombardsley3081]

@@MrSniperfox29 he was going to win barring a mechanical issue. All the cars in front needed to stop (with rosberg having a stop go as well) and he'd have had the pace to jump the 1 stoppers.

[@MrSniperfox29]

@@tombardsley3081 Or if the reverse happened and someone caused a safety car that messed up his second stop.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@MrSniperfox29 needed for it to happen at a specific time for that case. Case and point, how they fixed the race in the first place and the fact that a 2nd safety car later on didn't affect Alonso one bit

[@totalcfh]

You're a really good researcher, always pulling from the most relevant sources. I'm not aware of new details about this case. But recently at a podcast, Nelson disclosed that he managed to squeeze a lot of money from Flavio back in 1990. Flavio offered Nelson a contract based on points scored and championship standings. $300k per point scored and 6 million for the 3rd place in the standings, making it the most well paid year in Nelson's career. He said Flavio was really mad at that. Makes me think that Flavio has been cooking some sort of revenge against Nelson for decades. As for Nelsinho, what a fool. He was appropriately shunned by most of the motorsports world and the brazilian people. That event will haunt him for the rest of his life. But I wish people wouldn't forget that Flavio was the evil mastermind. I guess rules don't apply for billionaires.

[@reptongeek]

Like you I think Nelson Piquet Jr had other options like non starting the race for instance or harmlessly pulling off the circuit. But we can't get in his head and find out what was going through his mind, when he was given the order to crash in the first place. He wanted to save his drive and he obviously thought this was the only way Truthfully Flavio is the bigger fool. You have a driver who could bring you down in one swift stroke - which he subsequently did. Why would you not want to make him the happiest F1 driver the sport had ever seen?

[@tjroelsma]

Piquet Jr might not have been the mastermind behind crashgate, but he DID willingly co-operate and profited from it, only to later snitch on Briatore when they had fallen out. So Piquet Jr also had a very questionable mentality.

[@ergoproxy-gx2cq]

Aaand gasly gets disqualified from last racr's quali for an iffy fuel flow sensor, after Briatore is back in Renault. Yeah, i dont think it was intentional cheating but with this guy you have to triple check

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

To be fair, something I'm not usually inclined to do with Briatore, apparently the sensor actually made the Alpine slower. That's what I heard. I have _no_ idea if it is true.

[@kevinprior3549]

The fact that Briatore is now walking around the paddock makes my blood boil.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

That’s Alpine, for ya🙄

[@alexpeak16]

@@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT Indeed, they're in such a mess that bringing back Briatore reeks of desperation. Piquet Jr was terrible but he should have said no to causing a deliberate crash even if it meant losing his Renault seat.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

@@alexpeak16 dude fr

[@scsutton1]

Well, they'll let anyone in these days.

[@PaperBanjo64]

Team was only successful with Briatore around, he's a shady character but he got them results, they won't ever succeed without trying something different.

[@wearetomorrowspast.5617]

All well & good but I still want to hear Aiden cranking up the Marshall stack there. Love it loud.

[@brokentuskclan1795]

Hungary and Singapore really cost Massa big time.

[@mikesummers-smith4091]

Interviewed on TV just before the race, "OK, Fernando's in 18 but anything can happen". OK, Flavio, whatever you say. Whatever. Even watching live, Alonso's early pitstop looked weird.

[@hoeyin3748]

Maybe Latifi, driving a MERCEDES powered Williams, tried to do the same but the safety car didn't stay out until the end....& the rest is history

[@DiscGolfLeagueMVP]

I hope you're trolling. Why would anyone think that erasing a 20 second lead is beneficial to them?

[@justinszabo5205]

lmao

[@CockMcBallsddd]

. . .um. Are you serious? You aren't that dumb and out of it are you? I really hope you're a 12 year old because no adult has any excuse for being that dumb.

[@stefanosnapshots463]

The thing that made me suspicious on the day was that Nelsinho rehearsed the spin on the formation lap at the same spot. When the actual crash happened I thought it was deliberate.

[@MrEo89]

I wonder what that dummy Piquet thought about his role in that scandal after realizing he would never participate in Formula 1. Talk about being pitched into the deepest black hole blacklist.. idk where I was going with that.

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

The fact that it was all too easy to believe the story about Briatore being behind it, will always make believing him to be innocent difficult. Especially for those of us who had seen his F1 career for years...

[@gegwen7440]

Should it not have been Renault and any other team then the FIA (French) would not have hesitated to ban them for that season at least. IMO

[@Strangegloves]

I know Alonso has said he didn't know about the plan.....but cmon he must've thought it was massively convenient.......

[@karlbassett8485]

A driver as talented and knowledgeable as he was would surely have questioned such an odd pit strategy. If he was Witness X, and the fact he was cleared so quickly and unequivocally suggests he could be, then he was against it and so couldn't really stop them doing it. Other than by refusing to race or something.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@Strangegloves he knew of the plan. There's no way he'd have accepted that strategy given his starting position without knowing what was going to happen

[@MrAagaard]

he said so in the cooldown room. can't remember the exact wording, but it was along the line of that the safetycar was very convenient for him.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@MrAagaard Alonso is known for not telling the full truth. See the previous season with what happened in Hungary and the false accusations that McLaren were sabotaging. And then also when he was given the Germany win when Ferrari moved Massa over. He's a clever driver. He knows exactly what to say and when to say it

[@TheRip72]

@@tombardsley3081 He is not such a clever driver. He is fast enough & is a good strategist, but his ability to work within a team is poor.

[@bravojohnny3199]

Hope Sergio is watching

[@anthonyhastings5961]

I want to sue the Argentian Football Association for Maradona’s “Hand of God” goal right after Massa’s court case has finished. England would have definitely won the 86 World Cup and I wouldn’t have had to spend so much on therapy if Diego hadn’t cheated us

[@AidanMillward]

@@anthonyhastings5961 the annoying thing is, that second goal was just pure genius. Absolutely liquid football and he did that after the hand of god just to twist the knife in.

[@RRaquello]

It's obvious who Witness X is: Rex Racer.

[@rondonarko7445]

Briatore put peoples lives at risk. It’s a disgrace that he is back.

[@sdewey4152]

And the obvious omission that Alonso was managed by Flavio. We all know Alonso was Flavios little prodigal child.

[@Dr.Dawson]

Flavio is a cheat and a liar. Fact. He has 0 business in F1 as I see it. Sucks he is back IMO.

[@mike04574]

i remember being 4 years old and standing behind the walls of the street track near my dad's office building, back when organizers hadn't closed off the entire area surrounding the track with no clue about what racing was

[@minibus9]

awesome video, ultimately we will never know if had crashgate not happened Massa would or would not have one the title

[@stibblr]

IMO Massa had too many errors that season to be deserving of that championship

[@tombardsley3081]

@@stibblrHamilton had a similar number of errors and Massa had more car issues that cost him points. Both were incredibly lucky that raikkonen had a poor middle of the season and BMW stopped developing after winning in Canada which compromised Kubica’s title challenge which given how close he was still with 2 races to go despite inferior machinery, you could argue he could have beaten both if BMW went for it.

[@michaelmaclean6965]

It's amazing how much of an impact it's had on F1 culture, there's literally an edm song about it which is the highest form of lore appreciation

[@whtalt92]

It also provided their main sponsor a convenient moment to get out - in the midst of a financial crisis. Mind you, those fleece jackets ING had are even now pretty good at keeping you warm.

[@thepolishnz]

Why does f1 keep allow flavio back? Cheated twice at bennetton and cheated at Renault. Do they trust he won't do it again?

[@pliiatz7534]

So he could cheat also in Alpine.

[@thepolishnz]

@@pliiatz7534 at this point if alpine make q3 we know there is cheating involved

[@willf1sv5]

Raikkonen fought was way back to up 4th/5th before crashing out at Singapore. Masaa just spent the rest of the race sat at the back doing absolutely nothing of any good.

[@photodave219]

Part of me wishes F1 could go back to refueling. But the other part of me knows that is just opening up a massive can of worms that could result in absolute disaster.

[@fuzzy1dk]

WEC does plenty of refueling without any issues, but refueling wouldn't do anything to F1 except increase cost and make racing worse

[@seanquinn9261]

the rapper joke made me giggle

[@Mishima505]

I thought the biggest story of the 2008 season was Max visiting a certain very private and expensive establishment in west London 😉

[@DanielDennett-l9n]

His private business, no? I loathed that man but it really was up to him, and the “Nazi” angle claimed by the tabloids was utter bunk.

[@AidanMillward]

Some couples have a thing where the woman dresses up as a cheerleader or a school girl. Max’s kink seemed be “women in uniforms”

[@andy435]

The look after "not a rapper" Sensible chuckle

[@scottciesielski6854]

Thanks!

[@AidanMillward]

Thanks so much!

[@MsZeeZed]

Too many hindsighters here believe Brundle’s live race commentary was serious, but it was said as a joke and no-one really believed it. Nelson jr had near binned his car into the wall during the warm-up lap in 2008 and looked like an accident waiting to happen as he too often did. The major focus at the time was Ferrari’s pit lights release failure and it was almost year later before this story broke cover when Nelsinho got binned mid-season by Renault instead of the contract extension he was expecting.

[@cylonred8902]

Flavio should not have been allowed back in F1...

[@TerminalSports45]

Recommendation for the next story time. Spygate. Given what's happening in IndyCar with the FBI raiding Rahul Letterman racing over a very similar scenario

[@ZGtx]

He made one on this last year, if I'm not mistaken.

[@nowind37]

also 2008 crisis is a factor

[@avengedsoul6661]

If I wasn’t already subscribed, that rapper comment would’ve got it done! 😂💖

[@DanielDennett-l9n]

Massa et al really need to do a bit of reading about the physics and philosophy of determinism, cause and effect and chaos theory. We should all be familiar by now with the idea of parallel universes which are a common trope in blockbuster movies and books, as well as the butterfly effect, in which (for example) a butterfly flapping its wings in Patagonia influences the weather in East Africa. We should also be familiar with the problem of Laplace’s demon. The point being that you can’t isolate an event like “because Piquet crashed, I had the fuel hose incident, which cost me points, which cost me the WDC”. It’s possible, so Millward uses the language “might have” here, but equally it’s possible that had Piquet not crashed, an entirely different chain of events “might” have led to Massa losing even more points, or to his death, or myriad other outcomes. These are complex, chaotic systems which the fuel hose debacle itself kind of demonstrates. Had Senna’s wishbone not come up at the precise angle to penetrate his helmet - even a degree or two would have been sufficient, we would have long forgotten race day at Imola 94 and the championship table “might” look entirely different, but we live in THIS universe, not some hypothetical and arbitrary one in which Massa galloped off to a WDC title. If we allow the degrees of freedom to assert that Briatore, Symonds and Piquet were not cheating and spineless scumbags (can you imagine Prost, Senna or Lauda agreeing to such a thing, even in their junior years?), then we have to allow for limitless unknown and unknowable scenarios in which a huge variety of outcomes can occur. At this stage people will talk about “likelihoods” rather than actual fact, but if we want to play that game then I can find numerous far more direct, cause-and-effect sequences of events which robbed people of championships, starting with Michael Masi. Masi was and is a dishonest scumbag who broke rules for a specific purpose, but we live in a universe in which that is the case, not a hypothetical parallel universe in which a non-corrupt official ran that race. He lost his job - as good as it gets. We should be aware that if you re-write history into a hypothetical based on your intuition about what’s fair, then you open the floodgates to limitless other hypotheticals including ones in which, for example, Hamilton wasn’t robbed of his win at Spa by (again) corrupt officials under Mosley issuing new rules hours after the race. It’s a game that’s fun to play but that’s all it is. Aiden is also fond of saying that if the points system were not “best of 11” in 1988, then Prost *would* have won the WDC that year on points - also complete bunk for the same reason. Aside from the physics problem, they were both driving with full advance knowledge of the points system, which can and will determine their approach and actions - something we have no problem accepting when we talk about the points structure and how it can be used as an incentive to push for a result, or (if flatter) to adopt a cruise-and-collect approach. So - complete speculation with no basis in fact. Part of me hopes Massa’s court attempts are successful, setting a precedent for the righting of a list of other wrongs over the decades, but it makes zero sense.

[@orionexplorer]

This was one of the reasons I stopped following F1. I know egos are huge, and budgets were even larger but after what had happened over the past few years it was too much.

[@TheRip72]

This was one which became public knowledge. How many other crashes have there been at convenient times. How many qualy periods have been spoiled by a red or yellow flag when someone is likely to beat provisional pole?

[@Dat-Mudkip]

Hot take: They should bring back closing the pit land at the beginning of safety car conditions.

[@HabitualLine-Stepper]

El Plan

[@kge420]

13:30 is gold!

[@danielmcallister4816]

There must be more than a few people that think Alonso must have known

[@peteryates7505]

....I'm not a rapper!....superb!

[@keironstoneman6938]

I thought something was amiss the moment it happened. Alonso had just pitted and I just thought the coincidence was too great.

[@bram5825]

"I`m not a rapper"

[@simontravers2715]

@AidanMillward you’re not a rapper, nor r ya Liam Gallagher! Yee-AARR sayin’ bro!?

[@AidanMillward]

@@simontravers2715 ya want some lasag-NYYYAAAHHH

[@arthuralford]

When you've broken the rules, don't piss off someone who can expose it all

[@robwright1067]

The massa fans who were lobbying for massa to be given the title x years later due to this are hilarious. Firstly, you cannot predict he wouldn't have run into trouble without this incident. All you can retrospectively do is disqualify Alonso and then massa still scores nothing. Also people seem to forget thay if Hamilton leaves this weekend behind perhaps mclaren take a different approach in the remaining races. There is literally no way to know how else it could have gone. Add awful Belgium decision and Felipe punting Hamilton off in Japan and I think things were fair. And Massa was never as fast a driver as Hamilton

[@markc8956]

Some sources have said Witness X was one of the Renault engineers,some named Alan Permaine (hope I've got the spelling right)

[@blueguy12345]

Having Symonds and Briattore both on the grid is a disgrace

[@allanfoster6965]

Definitely not a rapper! 😅

[@bumblebity2902]

It seemed suspicious to me at the first glance. Massa legal team try to prove it that Max, Bernie and others was aware that crash was maybe on purpose. They didn't take action back then because being preoccupied of breakaway series thing.

[@AidanMillward]

Problem with that is: Max and Charlie aren’t here

[@bumblebity2902]

@@AidanMillward yeah, only Bernie alive. Current FIA president was working as vice-president.

[@laurenmp7486]

I've wondered if witness X wasn't Bob Bell or James Allison. Sure they were on the technical side, and wouldn't have been suspected of anything in the first place, but either one could've known potentially. After all people like Bell and Allison are around the pits and such, so they could easily be included in a conversation they very much would've rather not happened.

[@AidanMillward]

It’s implied in many online articles it’s Alan Permane.

[@The_ROKCER]

I mean, Ron Dennis paid Glock so much to slow down in the last laps that even Trulli in the other Toyota, also on dry tires, got slower by proxy. It's amazing.

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

I know. Uncanny, wasn't it? 😂

[@Arrows]

What are you even talking?

[@The_ROKCER]

@@Arrows 0:22 I was talking about the Brazilian GP and how people who say Glock slowed down for Hamilton just ignore that Trulli slowed down by the same amount as Glock because he was in the same situation but behind them. This basically proves that Glock didn’t slow down for Hamilton; he was just busy fighting for survival on a very wet track.

[@TheRip72]

@@The_ROKCER Glock was only in front in the first place because he had not stopped to get on the right tyres. He still finished in front of where he would have been had he pitted.

[@Bezza49]

For some reason, Crashgate really doesn't bother me much. Just a bit "meh". Spygate was crazier!!

[@meer1120]

Have you considered doing one on Liegate?

[@AidanMillward]

Already did it.

[@Cramhead43]

Love they mentioned fernando won there in 2008 lol.

[@HangoverTelevision]

13:32 We want the Millward-Rap, NOW! Yo moth**f***a! :P

[@caincha]

This is a interesting one in the sense that from all the people involved in this only the one with less power to do anything ended up actually losing everything: the driver. Everyone else is still there in one way or another some in even better positions now than they were then and where's the driver in all that? What was the punishment for the team, for instance? Why was the ban lifted for Briatore? As for Massa's complaints... nah... I mean sure he wouldn't be in that position if it weren't for the incident but the same can be said for all the races he lost points that year - or any year, or any driver for that matter. It's done, get over it.

[@jsnsk101]

You'll crash when we tell you, and well leave your friends behind, because your friends don't crash and if they wont crash then they're no friends of mine

[@SetsunaTheFandom]

Low-key expecting a #3 which is Max Verstappen knowing the domino effect that's just after the #2 reference, but I think that happened after recording this so it's understandable

[@kevinprior3549]

Massa still trying to claim the 2008 title is unjustified. It ain't Alonso's fault Ferrari f#@£ed up Massa's pit stop in Singapore. And it ain't Hamilton's fault Glock struggled on tyres in Brazil. Plus he was very lucky to be given the win of the Belgian GP that year.

[@Cramhead43]

Love how Simmons did work for F1 for a bit after and is now working for the Andretti effort. Hope they do get in soon-ish, gotta love politics!

[@SunnyIntervalsORG]

Renault's punishment was to become Alpine! 😁

[@eamonahern7495]

I have a short reaction video of this incident called Meltdown Piquet on my channel. It was made in the weeks after the Grand Prix and, because of the technology available to me at the time, it's poor quality and very pixelated. Crashgate hadn't become public until months after. I originally had it on my old youtube account (2000s). That's why the upload date is relatively recent.

[@SirGingerOfKnight]

Ah "pressing issues" *Installs Vice City*

[@rars0n]

Supa hot fire!

[@kryst4line]

English people going full in for the "ALONSO KNEW EVERYTHING!!1!" conspiracy is something else

[@AidanMillward]

To be fair, being that far back at a track where it’s so hard to get by and only doing a 12 lap opening stint is a bit of a strange one.

[@matthewgubbins8515]

Tha ferrari at the start so damn sexy

[@nathancoleman8792]

Witness x apparently was Alan permane

[@AidanMillward]

@@nathancoleman8792 probably. I had read this but I couldn’t find his name.

[@A-BYTE64]

"Innovation"

[@1002l]

Alan Permane is Witness X

[@cosmostrek2001]

crasholopy

[@willf1sv5]

Massa was the 5th best driver of 2008. A lot of silly mistakes and Silverstone was embarrassing. That Ferrari car was clearly better than McLaren. (Not even a Hamilton fan, I can't stand the man).

[@AidanMillward]

@@willf1sv5 Silverstone and Fuji. Hamilton had a penalty then Massa got one of his own for no reason.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@willf1sv5 interesting to hear your top 4 drivers for 2008. I'm assuming Kubica is up there given he was the best driver that season. Not sure on the other 3 given Hamilton had a similar number of mistakes in 2008 to Massa, Raikkonen, Kovalainen and Heidfeld were outshone by their teammates. Alonso was good but needed his team to cheat to win a race. The Ferrari wasn't clearly better than the McLaren. 3 way between Ferrari, McLaren and BMW until Canada and then it went back and forth between the 2 cars. Also Massa lost more points from mechanical issues

[@willf1sv5]

My top 4 were: 1st Hamilton 2nd Kubica 3rd Vettel 4th Alonso Everyone in the top 3 teams made mistakes in 2008. British GP onwards Hamilton sorted himself out and became more consistent than everyone else. That Ferrari car was a rocketship tbh, I struggle to name many races at all where McLaren was the better car.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@willf1sv5 Hamilton was definitely not the best driver for 2008. Kubica was better. Only one mistake all season with Silverstone. Massa barely made any mistakes after Silverstone as well. He lost points thanks to bad luck like the Hungary engine failure and what happened in Singapore. And both Lewis and Massa messed up in Fuji (with Massa also being taken out by Bourdais later in the race which could have put him out the race). McLaren was quicker in Australia, Monaco, Canada (Lewis was in control and threw it away), Silverstone, Germany, Monza (Kovalainen qualified 2nd) , Fuji, China. Kovalainen was underperforming for the most part of the season where he ended up behind both BMWs and Alonso

[@willf1sv5]

Kubica and Heidfeld scored basically the same number of points post-Canada in 2008. Kubica cannot be first for me because of that. P.S. I can't stand Hamilton, just stating my honest opinion. Massa bottled Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Britain and Japan in 2008. Along with other races where he bottled points. Basically 2024 Norris but at least able to win races consistently. Australia was the only dry race all season in which McLaren had the better car. Massa was never any good in wet races. Kovalainen was never good enough for a top team. McLaren was just about the better car in 2007. More reliable for a start. Norris has bottled 100 points this year, utterly unacceptable. He's had the fastest car almost every race since Miami.

[@dracorosso7129]

I too I am not a rapper.

[@simontravers2715]

Funny how Vettel was ahead of Webber in the standings in a TORO ROSSO! 2009-13 was smirking round the corner.

[@northernbloke6787]

The torro rosso was the same car with a better engine.

[@tombardsley3081]

@@ColinP-yo2mztoro rosso had the latest Ferrari spec engine. It was better than the red bull powered Renault

[@connortremmel]

​@@ColinP-yo2mz That was when newey was able to design the cars for both teams so it was basically the same car just with a different engine

[@AidanMillward]

@@ColinP-yo2mz he’s not wrong.

[@stanislavmelekhin9509]

Well, of course Massa lost here 6-8 points to Hamilton. But: he was given 6 points in Spa for free by the same FIA. Suing the FIA in the court is not only shows how miserable he was as a driver, but also how ungrateful he is for the efforts that the FIA put that year to make him champion.

[@AidanMillward]

He fucked it at Fuji as well. Hamilton had a penalty so Massa decided to get one as well. That could have been free points

[@stanislavmelekhin9509]

@@AidanMillward moreover he got a bonus also at Fuji. Bourdais was penalised for Massa's suicidal move on him.

[@Giratina575]

​@@AidanMillwardsilverstone was his biggest faux pa. Spun 6 times whilst hamilton dropped 2 laps on him

[@ernestpresents]

abu dhabi 2021

[@MaxScheibenpflug]

So. Was Alonso in on that plan or wasn't he?

[@alexalexan-d6j]

Massa didn't spin. He was illegally blocked by another car (I don't remember who). I don't remember if it was a backmarker who blocked him when being overtaken or a car exiting the pitlane who moved outside the line that limits those rejoining the race. Then had to brake hard and stop the car to avoid a collision

[@TerribleFire]

Massa screwed up .. if he hadnt he would have been champ

[@corpsecoder_nw6746]

3:53 tbf Vettel also got a 5th in Monaco and bunch of other major points-scoring finishes to be up there

[@vorakijpunyashthiti2820]

I'm not a rapper😂

[@nigelT16]

Massa is currently watching

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

No

[@RubyRoks]

A: Briotore being back in F1 is horsepucky B: i wouldn't be surprised if Alonso was Witness X

[@JSmith19858]

Man, Fernando is such a grass. I don't remember the 'witness X' part

[@kge420]

Wash your coffee cup ffs

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

Don’t be rude

[@Holden308]

CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT: In Azerbaijan, did Perez cause the accident with Sainz on orders so Max would be able to minimize the points loss to Norris?? Sainz was in front, for mine that's on Sergio to not touch him. And from the onboard from the Ferrari, I don't think Sainz turned into the Red Bull.....🤨

[@MyMintus]

Alonso should have been banned.