Air-to-Air Heat Pumps, cheap as chips to run Part 1

[@JamieW-o7b]

You are a star! I put my cassette low as I wanted it only for heating and everyone thought I was mad!

[@magooccna]

It's kind off physics 101 really. Hot air is lighter so they rise and cool air are denser and sink. That's why ufh is so efficient.

[@markcross5572]

I have a similar single split system heating my whole 3 bed terraced house. It only struggled to keep up during the recent -10degC but for most of the time it is fantastic. Saves about 4000kwh per year over the storage heaters I had. And bonus cooling during hot summer. Great

[@ragincrinz1457]

Can I get some info please on your unit? I have a 3 bed on storage heaters I want to change.

[@markcross5572]

@@ragincrinz1457 Mine is a Fujitsu AGYG14LVCA with AOYG14LVLA. I the last two years it has been great. Our electric usage has gone from around 4000 normal and 10000 Cheaper E10, to 4500 normal and 5500 E10. We have the one unit in the lounge at the back of the house, the warm air moves through to the front and up the stairs.

[@petanders1968]

Steve, enjoyable video. I see the point you are making about the siting of the indoor blower unit, we chose to have our A2A indoor fans positioned high up at the ceiling to maximise our room space, we have 3 Daikin units spread around the property and they have features that allow the downward fin to be angled from 45 to 90 degrees as well as being able to blow hot or cold air from left to right or through an arc controllable via the remote. We're a year in and are pleased with their performance ,price and running costs. Peter

[@edc1569]

It can work, the problem is you don’t want to be in the path of the blowing air, it’s a lot easier to have a good outcome with low mounted units as where you put them, and how you set them up is less critical.

[@brackcycle9056]

It is really interesting why the promotion is on Air to Water HP. ? (A2W advantage .Heats all rooms. Can use R290. does hot water tank, can be quiet indoors. Supports the plumbing industry. When you come to replace Monoblock it could be easy. Disadvantage. May need new.. massive rads &/or UFH , HW cylinder, pump, pipes, motor valves, glycol or freeze valves, controller, weather compensation, need to keep house at near constant temp, need to run it through night. can't let house fall below 15c when on holiday, very slow to heat house from cold, design mistakes can wreck your efficiency. Service costs higher than gas boiler) A2W you can measure a SCOP of 4. A2A sounds better but harder to measure.

[@markw1590]

Great video lots of food for thought. Especially around the hot water heating. Never thought of the ducting that's a good idea.

[@KevinArmstrongUK]

Great video Steve. Nobody seems to be talking air to air, but quotes I’m getting are cheaper that wet ashp even after taking of the £5k. Big selling point for me is ease of fitting compared to wet system.

[@stevehead01]

Much less complicated, so cheaper to make and install. So the £5k grant ensures that yet again - like the previous crappy RHI scheme, that Brits only get offered overpriced GSHP and wet systems. You couldn't get a grant for a heat pump that also did cooling AND the installer had to be approved. That meant that all the super efficient air-to-air systems were completely overlooked in the UK. I had Mitsubishi units ooooh 12 years ago and they had an SCOP of 5.41. Never looked back since

[@KevinArmstrongUK]

@@stevehead01 really is crazy. Why not give the grant to anyone who is removing their gas boiler and fitting any type of renewable heat system? At least there is no VAT currently.

[@1943L]

That makes a lot of sense. Mounting the indoor unit low down. Like the ducted air too.

[@samsara3694]

Modern/premium air to air wall mounted units point their vanes directly downwards towards the floor for heating, and upwards for cooling, as well as intelligently looking for cold spots.

[@stevehead01]

They certainly do, but do you honestly think that having a down facing blower mounted 2 meters up is going to have any chance whatsoever of getting the floor temp to 24C. It'd have to be like a turbojet. These things are whisper quiet, so the hot air don't get very far before mingling with lots of cooler room air. If you lay on the floor, I doubt you'd feel anything.

[@peteg8920]

I have Mitsubishi wall unit mounted under my living room window instead of high up on the wall. You can adjust the vertical drought from almost straight down to almost horizontal and it works fine.

[@1943L]

Very interesting video. 3.5 kw. Is that the output? Ie 500w plus to run it?

[@KavanOBrien]

Bit late just discovered this channel, how much was the air to air heat pump ?

[@allandewar]

The outdoor condenser unit looks like it may be too close to your indoor evaporator unit. There should be at least two meters of pipework between both for correct heat exchange to take place .

[@stevehead01]

The installers were aware of that, and there is 2+ meters of refrigerant pipework. Some of it is inside the cavity.

[@fredflintstone1428]

By the looks of your video, you're a first floor apartment. The amount of saving in heat from this is immense (unless you live above an unheated space?). Your installation is different from the kind where the heat from outside is used to warm an existing water central heating system.

[@stevehead01]

Third floor attic flat, so it's a bit windy up here. There is no heating coming up from the downstairs properties. I know this as the temperature was 8C when we first moved in, which was disappointingly the same as outdoors.

[@MrButuz]

Interesting so you recon about 8 quid a month in october which was quite mild - how did december do you? Been running Mitsubishi air to air in various work capacities for 2 decades now not one unit failed - i laugh my way to my head in my hands at all these "spend 15k on air to water and get 5k grand wohooo! videos :p

[@MrButuz]

@@zlmdragon. So what is your suggestion for getting a full air to water setup including all installation, new tank, pipe size changes and radiator upgrades for less than 10-15k now that we can no longer get our £5k government bribe?? :)

[@VivekPatel-ze6jy]

1:34 excellent taste in books

[@ram64man]

now did you find it through the recent cold spell? I noticed that there wasn't any condensate pipe attached so did it cause significant icing, also what is your cop value at that time, as Im trying to get info from uk owners, did it match the 5.1 expected or did yours drop to 3.1

[@stevehead01]

Hi, I don't have any way to monitor the cop in real time. All I have is a smart meter with daily kWh reports and 3 logging thermometers - front room, master bedroom and outdoors. What I can say is we didn't need any supplementary heating during the Dec cold snap. There is a condensate pipe. It runs to a pump in the eaves. The pump is sat in a plastic tray with an extremely loud water leak detector in case it fails.

[@stevehead01]

Hi, it's now about 2 months since I made the vid and just been through a cold, dank January. Overall electric cost has risen of course and that's the worst month out of the way. So £136 for the first 28 days. I'm pretty annoyed at the company that did the install for not fitting a condensate drain to the external unit. I expressed my concern at the time and was dismissed being told it's unnecessary. Well I've now had a complaint from downstairs as water pours over the front of the balcony all over their stuff. The installers response so far has been 'well they get wet if it rains anyway don't they'. The outdoor unit needs to be raised, and a gravity drain connected to the existing pump-to-waste inside. From the response I got, I'm not holding out much hope.

[@ram64man]

@@stevehead01 thank you

[@lynnwandering581]

It’s a well insulated house, I am from China, so i know my way around this type of mini split, no way it do the job in my home(way smaller). So insulation, insulation, insulation. FYI, do you leave it on all the time in the heating season?

[@stevehead01]

Hi, no I don't leave it on all the time. I use the app to turn it on 1/2 an hour before I get home. Off an hour before bedtime. On in the morning for an hour sometimes. Yeah, insulation. Temp only drops 3C overnight cos of that.

[@peteg8920]

What you say certainly makes sense and I am actually considering moving my Toshiba Daiseikai 25 down to floor level and putting it under a window. From there I can send the airflow out staight over the floor . What do you think ?

[@stevehead01]

Hi Pete, I'm bound to say that you'll be much comfier if you do as that is my experience. In summer you'll still be cool for sure, I certainly am.

[@peteg8920]

@@stevehead01 Thanks for the confirmation Steve. I enjoy the heat during the summer and as ours are not especially long here in Stockholm , air con is not one of my priorities.

[@brackcycle9056]

Having the heat at ground level makes so much more sense . so I ask is the energy label you showed RAS-B13N4KVRG-E for a high wall mounted unit? If so do you happen to know the name of the floor level unit?

[@stevehead01]

The indoor floor level unit is the RAS-B13J2FVG-E

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@zlmdragon. No, As it's A2A, it's just the SCOP of the outdoor unit.

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@zlmdragon. on the product datasheet for (I believe) the previous generation to the one in the video, which can be found with the title "R32 RAS Multi-split Floor Mounted Console Bi-flow", the cops and scops are listed against the outdoor unit(s) only with being able to choose which indoor units are used. With A2W, as I'm sure you know the cop is affected by the water temperature going in and how much it needs to raise it by, so the wider system has an impact on it. I'm not an expert on how A2A COPs are calculated. But I'm pretty sure the indoor units communicate how much power they need with the outdoor unit, and it either honours it, or if it is restricted by the outdoor temp along with the other units, will only provide up to the maximum it can provide divided between the units. I have a standalone daiseikai 9.5 35, which has up to 7.7kW of heat output, but on really really cold days (-20C) it can only supply about 4.4kW, so heat output is largely dependent on the outside environment.

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@zlmdragon. I think that's more just bringing in the capacities from the indoor unit(s) and pairing it with the outdoor unit specs (as you could pair a larger outdoor unit, e.g for future expansion, but still only have the total capacity of the indoor unit(s)). i.e. I'm not entirely sure it matters if the internal unit is a 3.5kW floor standing unit vs a 3.5kW high wall unit. I could be wrong though.

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@zlmdragon. Thanks. I incorrectly thought it was much simpler than that since you can mix/match indoor unit types with the same outdoor unit in a multisplit set up.

[@ranjan996]

Did you need planning permission? Looking to install similar in a top floor flat with mini balcony

[@stevehead01]

@@ranjan996 Hi, no planning permission required it's part of 'Permitted Development'. There are rules you need to comply with but planning isn't one of them.

[@ranjan996]

@@stevehead01 Thanks for the reply, the wording on the "permitted development" was a bit confusing when it came to flats and I thought contacting the coucil might take a while. I appreciate the answer

[@stevehead01]

@@ranjan996 I had a meet with my local council about this and the outcome was a bit vague. I took away from that (paid) meeting that I need to stick within Permitted Development rules (of course) but they would still investigate any noise complaints from neighbours. Buy a very quiet outdoor unit.

[@alanrobinson2229]

Your video makes this appear to be a cheap and relatively simple alternative to "normal" air source heat pump. My house is externally insulated and hardly needs much to warm it up. Are these cheap to get installed,can you DIY? Also,do they need to be running all the time like traditional heat pump,or can you just turn on as needed,as you would in summer,to cool?

[@markw1590]

Here's my two pennies, yes it's cheaper. With less requirements compared to a wet system. I would recommend getting them professional installed because of there power requirements. You can turn them on as needed. For me our next home will have these in.

[@alanrobinson2229]

@@markw1590 Thanks Mark. Iam edging towards this is the best option.

[@stevehead01]

Hi, If your home is well insulated (sounds like it is) then no, you don't need to run it 24/7. Currently (early January) I haven't even bothered to set an on timer as it's not that cold when we get up. Sometimes I switch it on via the internet 30 mins before I get home. No, you can't legally DIY these, but an easy job for any fgas certified engineer (s).

[@MT-xy7fw]

October 2022 uk temp was still pretty high so this is useless. How much was mid Dec and last few days Jan 2023? I bet it easily doubled or triple cost. And split unit on top is no problem.

[@richardc1983]

Hate wall mounts as they are crap in heating due to stratification. Feet cold but head hot.

[@Chris-hy6jy]

Are you sure that the temp is measured using the remote? Most of these units measure the air temp of the intake air.

[@stevehead01]

Hi Chris, Well the manual says not to place the remote near a stove or any other sources of heat eg direct sunlight. I drew the conclusion that the remote has a temp sensor from that info.

[@richardc1983]

Probably more to protect the remote control from solar or direct heat. You'd see the sensor on the back or a corner if it had a built in sensor and some advertise it as a feature sometimes called ifeel or followme.

[@Y0UTUBEADMIN]

Are you related to Richard Head?

[@Heshhion]

Moist Von Lipvic approves this video..

[@owlsy1971]

have you got a link or model number thanks great video

[@stevehead01]

Hi, I've just uploaded an update video which contains the info you're looking for kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaKbf4ubpr6kh9E

[@mikgsal1384]

Hi thanks for the video which is very innovative. What is the floor area of your house in square metres or feet please?

[@UpsideDownFork]

How are you heating water?

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@zlmdragon. not a bad idea. 3.2KW output if you can get them all lit at once! 😂

[@wisevirginsmedia]

No good for cheap heat source in winter, which is when you need it.

[@markcross5572]

I have a similar single split system heating the whole 3 bed terraced house. It only struggled to keep up during the recent -10deC but for the most of the time it if fantastic. Saves about 4000kwh per year over the storage heaters I had. And bonus cooling during hot summer. Great

[@seckintufan5191]

Only one heat pump enough for all house?