Why Elsa IS A Bad Character

[@f.airy.x]

It bothers me so much that Elsa is treated like the badass sister because she’s single, has a pretty dress, and powers but it’s Anna who drives the plot, saves the day, has character development and just is a better more well rounded character.

[@silverforestry]

@@Nopeasaurus the foolish behavior makes SENSE for her; she's been isolated her whole life because of Elsa's isolation, it makes sense that she'd latch onto the first man who's nice to her (a lot of people are like that IRL). And Anna pays the price for her bad decisons---she literally turned to ice because she was careless when confronting Elsa. I totally get where you are coming from, but the plot DOES give Anna consequences, even if they're not well-placed and a little too convenient.

[@valej4272]

​@okok-qb3sk Falling in love doesn't make her a bad person though, yes it makes her immature and childish, but those are not traits of a bad person, especially if you take into consideration that she is around 16 years old

[@entertain7us148]

Just because little girls love her dress doesn’t mean she’s treated like the main character. The film always treats Anna as the protagonist, the entire plot is structured around her from her perspective. If you’re distracted by the marketing, thats on you, not the film.

[@f.airy.x]

@@entertain7us148 I’m talking abt the audience not the film. Way to completely misconstrue what I said.

[@xenomorphbiologist-xx1214]

Well yeah it’s cuz she’s the main character. Everyone likes the antagonist more if they’re interesting enough, whether it’s Darth Vader, Heath Ledger’s Joker or in this case, Elsa

[@Red-jl1qr]

Elsa's entire character revolved around her trauma in the first movie, and it literally never gets resolved. She just says "oh yeah, love," and then everything is solved. There was no healing process or realizing that what she was doing was bad or apologies to Anna or anything like that. it bums me the hell out.

[@bacchiguu86]

This. Yes.

[@lilac3266]

this irks me so bad. Like when I say to ppl that elsa tried to kill anna everyone goes “oh but it was an accident”. No actually I’m talking about the SECOND TIME she tried to kill anna by intentionally summoning a giant snow monster to throw her sister off the mountain. Which is never addressed again!? Anna did literally everything in that movie and even in the second one she still never gets an apology!?? elsa is so unbelievably selfish in the second movie, I cant excuse the first because of the whole fear thing but after the shorts her character had developed past that. Until they decided to completely change the entire character for some reason

[@lucyandecember2843]

@@lilac3266 technically it the monster was created to throw them out of the castle. That would have been it if Anna hadn't provoked it afterwards.

[@lilac3266]

@@lucyandecember2843 still physically throwing her out of the castle was unnecessary. She couldn’t create a snow monster to escort them? She was MEAN and that’s not even the only time she almost kills anna. In frozen 2 she makes that boat after lying to her and that sends Anna off a waterfall. For both of these incidents, ELSA NEVER APOLOGIZED

[@_cristalie]

​@@lilac3266SIM! Não se desculpa e ainda age como se nada tivesse acontecido!

[@blackhood7200]

Looking at the behind the scenes animation of Elsa being an edgy villain, I much would have preferred that version of her. It would have been more interesting.

[@artbytesia]

Also it would've made her realization that love is the answer make more sense.

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

She seemed like a Maleficent type villain that would have been awesome as hell

[@isaiahrivers7117]

She probably could've been an interesting disney boss fight in Kingdom Hearts 3 if they would've went that route

[@OpticalSorcerer]

I'd take a hero character struggling eith self-love over a traditional villain. If Frozen was an intentional franchise, I would've been fine eith a "villain who slowly becomes a hero" arc for her.

[@ionryful]

​@@OpticalSorcererAs long as the writing is good

[@meredithcarroll6209]

Can I rant for a minute about how much I hate Anna and Elsa's mother? Because I *hate* her. She is one of the worst mothers in all of Disney's canon. We *see* her watching the father’s method for dealing with Elsa's powers and recognizing that it isn’t working and she does *nothing.* You'd think after a year or two (or five) of watching Elsa become more afraid of her powers and turning into an anxious mess that the mom would step up and say to the dad, "No. We're not doing this *anymore.* We've tried your way, it hasn’t worked, we're doing something else." Instead she just stands by looking worried.

[@sev1120]

It feels more like the king was afraid of a public scandal than he was about keeping Anna and Elsa safe, because he does what the head troll says right away, and takes it farther by locking the castle from EVERYONE, preventing the two heirs to the throne from being able to meet with the people of their kingdom. The Mother definitely should have intervened at some point, even if she was afraid what they were doing wasn't working, especially so. You're traumatising and isolating your eldest child, the heir to your throne.

[@meredithcarroll6209]

@@sev1120 and the king's method is *literally* the opposite of what the troll told them to do. Instead of treating Elsa like they love and trust her, reassuring her that together they'll find a way to teach her to control her powers, they lock her away from he sister who *loves* her openly and unabashedly while scaring the ever-loving crap out of her and making her feel like she'll never be able to trust herself not to accidentally kill someone. As her mother, the queen is *required* to stop this kind of abuse, even (and especially) when it comes from Elsa's well-meaning but badly misguided father.

[@Tailscutie123]

And this is how you can tell disney pulled the second movie's lore out of its ass because if Iduna's people lived with and knew the spirits existed why would she just stand by twiddling her thumbs in silence while Elsa is struggling with the power gifted to her BY the spirits, she should've stood up and told both of them everything and helped Elsa Instead of relying on the Trolls giving horrible advice

[@LadyLeomon]

This! Especially after Frozen 2 showing us Iduna’s childhood, her family and people _lived alongside the actual elements_ and yet she acted oblivious when her daughter was born an elemental?

[@LadyLeomon]

@@meredithcarroll6209the Troll Elder can’t be excused either, his whole “remove all memories of magic but leave the fun” … why? That just left Anna hurt when Elsa shut her out 😒😒😒

[@ceciliafaith4132]

As a kid, I initially decided Anna was my favorite because she deserved more credit and Elsa was too popular. After years of analysis, I realized it stemmed a lot deeper than just that.

[@EvelynL.1112]

Same

[@pescuezoee]

fr my cousins were always elsa and i was anna i was sad cuz obviously elsa was popular but now i love her lol

[@Storybook5571]

Yeah, I liked Anna better.

[@semnome9574]

Saaame! Always preferred Anna as a child, now I know why I did

[@traviscunningham7062]

Rosalina from Mario is even better than Elsa

[@ladypool1404]

I always find it horrible that Elsa never appologises for: leaving the villagers in a blizzard which almost kill them, freezing Anna's heart, making a giant monster to chase her sister because Elsa refuses her help ( she could just talked to her or pushed her but i guess the queen was too stressed to think about it ) leaving Anna and Olaf on a river surrounded by rock giants who could KILL Anna. If she cares about her sister, Elsa would appologise or at least realised that all this was cruel. I am supposed to find her charming and kind? Nope, can't happen! She did more wrong things than good ones. Oh and NOT going to her sister's corronation, that was so impolite 😠

[@daneyal7162]

If you see her reactions throughout the movie, I personally think that, while it's a shame that it was not on screen, I'm personally certain that she DID apologized. I think that the reason for such scene to not appear is because of how rushed the ending was. Someone who has the perfect chance to protect herself from attackers, but chooses to spare them instead dosen't strike me as someone who dosen't care about others.

[@loonytunescrazy]

UI@@daneyal7162 I thought Elsa and Anna did pretty much appologises pretty much after Anna recovered from being frozen after Else relaised Love was the key to her powers , it just wasn't said out loud

[@aff77141]

It makes it seem like they never really changed Elsa from being the story's antagonist, they just tacked on Hans' twist moment and avoided any apologies hoping nobody would notice

[@queenofeverything4004]

I once read a theory that the reason why Elsa didn't come to the coronation was cause he actually did die in Atohalan and now is a spirit boundaries to the forest

[@traviscunningham7062]

Even Rosalina from Mario is a better written character

[@error-try-again-later]

Elsa's whole arc in the second movie is basically just "abandoning my sister is self-care, actually." Like, she didn't even go to Anna's coronation? _Excuse me?!_ It just feels so unnecessary and selfish.

[@crischiva1936]

Selfish is the best adjective for Elsa

[@Acorn905]

Yeah it felt odd to me to :( I wanted her living in Arendel *and* the magic woods or living in Arendel and visiting the woods sometimes. Even sisters can drift apart since people change and develop their own lives thats true but they needed more time together before that. Now it feels odd and I think Elsa a Anna still need to spend time together.

[@kyuumons]

Yeah, I always just hated that scene at the very end. Couldn't make her sister's CORONATION but game night??? "wouldnt miss it for the world!!" like lmao okay???

[@GeovaniRodriguesMoraes-q1w]

They probably had an agreement or a conversation between them. There are cut/delayed scenes that show them talking and especially one that shows Elsa showing Anna the truth about their parents and what they would do if they came back alive. You only judge the character.

[@zigzagintrusion]

This bothered me SO much! The entire lesson of the first movie was that familial love is true love or whatever, but in the second movie, she totally dips out on her family? And I understand they were going for the "you can still be family and love each other while being physically distanced," but they didn't set the precedent for that in the first movie. It makes it come off very strange and overall was poorly done.

[@Неототалист]

I saw an interesting fan theory on this topic: "The animated film, conceived as an adaptation of "The Snow Queen," broke with all of Disney's traditions by having the first love of Princess Anna turn out to be unhappy. I think there's no need to fear spoilers - everyone who wanted to watch it has probably seen it by now - so I'll remind you: Prince Hans, who seemed genuine and charming, suddenly revealed himself as a cynical opportunist and callously left Anna to die from the icy curse. We all know that love at first sight rarely turns out successful in real life. But in the Disney world, there are different rules - and these rules were suddenly broken. If you take a closer look, Hans' betrayal leaves a huge number of plot holes. Starting with the song. Yes, apart from the rule that "love at first sight is always true" in the Disney world, there's another steadfast rule. A villain may pretend to be good in words, but they will always reveal themselves in song. As soon as the music starts, the true feelings and intentions of the characters come to the surface. Now, in the duet of Hans and Anna, there's nothing of the sort. It's an entirely sincere song of two lovers who are not yet accustomed to each other, who don't yet know each other well, but already feel that they are meant to be together. And all the rest of the time, Prince Hans behaves exactly in line with this characteristic. He organizes warm meals for the townspeople, personally leads the rescue operation - in short, acts like a kind, intelligent, and responsible person. If he was planning to kill Elsa and become king from the very beginning, then why does he save her life twice, in situations where her death could never be blamed on him? Why does he convince her to snap out of it and take responsibility for her actions? Whether she were killed by the Duke's mercenaries or renounced the throne and locked herself in her ice castle, it would have served his plans much better. Even his refusal to kiss Anna to save her doesn't align with the plans he immediately reveals afterward. If the kiss had worked, Hans - who was practically the ruler of Arendelle - would have become the legitimate prince consort and would have gotten a young, beautiful wife who not only was head over heels in love with him but also idolized him for saving her. If not, he could have said with a clear conscience that he did everything within his power. The impression is that Hans is sincere and genuine all along. But at the moment he leans in to kiss Anna, he changes beyond recognition, turning into a full-blown psychopath. As if his own heart was frozen in an instant. And now the question. Is there someone in the movie who is capable of reshaping someone's mind and memory as they wish, and who easily controls ice magic? Yes, there is. It's the trolls - the "greatest love experts," as Kristoff describes them. It was they who erased Anna's memory of her sister's power right from the start, completely rewriting all of her childhood memories. And it was on their advice that Elsa was doomed to solitude, which nearly drove her mad and nearly turned her into a full-fledged evil queen. In short, trolls are doing their best to eliminate the older sister - the possessor of dangerous power - and make the kind, naive Anna the queen. They want to marry her off to a man they once abducted and raised as their own. By the way, Kristoff is nothing like a typical Disney prince. He's a good-natured, easygoing guy, more like Pumbaa or Pacha from other movies - a typical sidekick to the hero, not destined to win the beauty or achieve great feats. He's a bit rough around the edges, not overly smart, and neglects personal hygiene. There's no immediate connection or mutual understanding between him and Anna, unlike the quick rapport that forms between Anna and Hans. Remember what I said from the very beginning? In the world of Disney, a villain always reveals themselves through song. And here we have the trolls' song. First of all, it's cheerful and full of life. The trolls don't care that the girl they're dancing around is dying. They're celebrating the fact that they're finally getting what they want. Secondly, they openly sing about how Anna's engagement doesn't matter and that her fiancé needs to be eliminated. True feelings and intentions come to the surface with the sound of music. Asking Anna or Kristoff what they think doesn't even cross the trolls' minds - they've already made up their minds. Hans is the only obstacle in their way. And as soon as he leans in towards Anna, his memory gets rewritten. He no longer remembers loving her. He doesn't remember trying to save Elsa. He remembers only what pleases the trolls. How did they do this? Trolls have ice magic - they demonstrated it by healing Anna at the very beginning. They could have manipulated the icy spell in her heart to strike the one who loves her. In the finale, when Elsa finds the key to her power and ends the eternal winter, all the heroes gathered on the ship celebrate. Only Hans stands in complete confusion. It's not the look of a defeated villain. It's the look of a man who has come to his senses and doesn't understand what just happened. The magic that turned him into a psychopath dissipates along with all of Elsa's other magic. Anna slaps him in the face, saying, "The only one here with a frozen heart is you!" The poor girl doesn't even realize how right she is..."

[@alicenolfi2095]

A new version of the story where the trolls are Machiavellian villains manipulating the royal sisters from the shadows, using the humans as mere puppets in a complex plot that would make the trolls the true rulers of Arendelle? I’d watch that!

[@asdergold1]

So much better than what we got.

[@aff77141]

I literally refuse to believe any other interpretation of this movie. After all what did they say when healing Anna? "The heart is not so easily changed, but the head can be persuaded." Anna doesn't feel anything but friendship to Kristoff, and likewise, until after Hans is out of the way. Their hearts weren't initially in it until their minds were tricked by what seems to be plain as day in front of them

[@rockmangurlx4973]

Especially in Nordic tales, Dwarves could be real bastards.

[@themisfitowl2595]

See, I think Hans DID reveal his actions in song, we just weren't looking for his ulterior motives. We were taken in by Hans just as Anna was, and I think that was not only intentional, but also frightening. Let me explain... Hans did want to be with Anna just not out of love... he wanted his own kingdom, he wanted to live in Arrendelle. When you listen to the song and realize he's actually singing about moving to Arrendelle, and manipulating Anna into letting him in, it really works. Hans: I've been searching my whole life to find my own place and maybe it's the party talking, or the chocolate fondue, but with you, I've found my place, and it's nothing like I've ever seen before! Love is an open door! Yeah, an open door... to the kingdom! I think it was very subtle but still a clear indication that his attentions were on the kingdom and not on Anna. Honestly, I saw Hans becoming a villain probably from the start for one crystal clear reason: Kristoff. If Hans was the true love, Kristoff would never have even held a spot in the movie. Any time you introduce a secondary love interest, it is certain one of them is going to turn evil, and typically the first one. (Or the one with the least amount of screen time.) I think people often don't like Hans' twist, because we hate realizing that we got tricked like Anna was. Hans' manipulation looks like love on the surface, just like how a real life predator would act. It frightens us to think that we couldn't spot his villain motivations until too late, because then we would end up just like Anna, a victim.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

I don’t hate Elsa but I also don’t really feel much toward her outside of the horrible abuse she suffered as a child. Her parents mistakenly filled her head with so much pain, grief and self loathing that she became a nervous wreck and hermit. And that to me solidifies why Elsa should have been the villain of this series. Disney loves to have its “complex” villains and yet when they actually have the set up for one, they ruin it and make Hans the villain for absolutely NO REASON. Elsa could have one the supposed three dimensional villain Disney has been trying and failing to make with all their remakes. She was such a wasted opportunity. If the point of Elsa’s arc was to teach her to love again, she gets over that trauma faster than she turned the kingdom to ice and it doesn’t feel earned. And then in the second movie, she just goes back to being a hermit again and nothing is learned. Elsa was just a character the writers had no idea what to do with and not making her the villain was a huge mistake.

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

Honestly Elsa as a villain would have been a great villain no doubt better than having Hans or that Duke guy or whatever

[@hunterolaughlin]

She's not a hermit. She has the Northuldran Tribe and the Elemental Spirits with her compared to the first film where she was literally by herself in an ice palace on a mountain.There's a DIFFERENCE.

[@dflaming1371]

@@hunterolaughlin she ends up abandoning her responsibilities (that she was unfit for anyways), that being not just running the kingdom but protecting its people, learning of the world that was right outside her door, and how to accept help from those close to her. It's an undoing of the ending of the first movie because now she's an (immortal???) Magical spirit who doesn't need to face her trauma (realistically), learn her power because poof, your fully magical now, or rely on anything or anyone because, again, you're a step down from being a magical diety. The details are different, but the reality of her seclusion--no longer being at home and being above and in control of the Tribe is the same thematically. She went from learning love, reliance, vulnerability, and responsibility to being above it all...alone. No amount of capitalization changes that

[@daniaamir6047]

I agree, ELSA would have a very good character arc and by the end of the movie She learns to control her powers and regain the respect of her kingdom and her connection with her sister have became more stronger

[@BuizelCream]

​@@dflaming1371I'm gonna bounce back and defend hunterolaughlin for this. While you have great points, but these points doesn't really work for how is Elsa currently written with the kind of individual she is and the kind of personality type she has. The character arc you just mentioned here may be better suited for an entirely different version of Elsa, like an alternate universe, where Elsa's core personality is instead written that makes her have this *deep longing* to be with the people and find belonging *with* the people after suffering through a life of isolation. The thing is, this is not what canon Elsa really wants. Elsa in the canon Frozen movies doesn't have this personality type that longs to belong with the people. This is why Elsa rings so true to a certain type of introverts out there, where these introverts really want in life is freedom from the oppression of the past they went through due to an unbalanced weight of societal expectations. These introverts relate with Elsa so much because of her journey from a repressed child, locked in her room not appreciated for her gifts, weighed with an expection to soon have a kingdom to govern and becoming Queen, and then she got whisked away on a journey that gave her a better calling that's well suited for her and to be who she is meant to be. It's not like when Elsa became this goddess-like being in Ahtohallan, she suddenly decided to remove herself from any human interaction. She was given a new higher purpose during the conclusion of the sequel. She went from protecting only Arendelle that holds the current generation of people to a protector of their realm, which includes the North and the history of the land they all stand for. Under this new godly role, she actually bears more responsibility, but at the same time is given all the autonomy she actually craves to function properly as a human being. There are a certain type of introverts out there who really want this out of life. Having this for themselves allows them to really become their best, which makes them fully capable to give back to their loved ones. In a way, there is a reason why many audiences cannot relate to Elsa's journey according to what's told in the Disney canon. Thus, resulting in all these commentary happening today. Majority of the people in the world feel that their purpose is with the people and being with the people, thus this type of people has always been better represented in the Frozen movies through Anna instead. She's the one who was written with a journey of seeking love and finding her people, wanting to break free from her horrible past due to living in forced isolation. To bring back the points you raised above for Elsa, those character arcs you mentioned is better suited for Anna instead.

[@joshualowe959]

Elsa was the golden child of her family yet Anna was never jealous of Elsa. That is one good thing about Frozen.

[@yuri-sama.questionmark]

And Anna just wants Elsa's love as a sister and is probably chasing that love through her idealism. 😭 Anna truly and underrated queen.

[@lilac3266]

I don’t think either of them could be considered a “golden child”. Elsa is locked away by her parents with no human contact and anna is trapped in the castle. Neither of them fall into family roles because they never interact. Take encanto for example, isabela is the golden child because we see how the family and town treat her like she’s perfect and constantly praise her, unlike her sister. But for these family dynamics to exist they need to have interaction.

[@jadorianempire9754]

@@lilac3266My take might be wrong but the Golden Child thought….I see it as the fact it was shown how dangerous Elsa’s Ice powers are, yet they still choose to go ahead and label her as the rightful ruler of the Kingdom over Anna. Yet they still locked Elsa up and isolated her the way they did…which in my opinion shows how they messed up the story with not making her the villain of the movie.

[@lilac3266]

@@jadorianempire9754 she was made the ruler because she’s the oldest? She never was treated like a golden child though. Elsa was locked away not even allowed to interact with her own sister whilst in contrast isabela was paraded around the town by her abuela and despite alma having 3 children she wanted isabela (the golden child) to prepare to take over the town.

[@jadorianempire9754]

@@lilac3266 I know she’s the oldest, but I’m trying to view from the lense of if they actually went ahead and made Elsa the complex villain she was supposed to be since the beginning. And the different routes they might’ve taken but possibly cut out…just to give us the movie we have now. Was she meant to resent her parents treatment while they also prepared her for the throne? Was it love? Or was it to save the families image? Since the father banned everyone even the public from entering….But no, it was Hans the whole time I guess.

[@EveAndMi]

Instead of Hans just flipping the evil switch, they could have had the "true love's kiss" moment, and it just doesn't work, because they have only just met each other. It makes Hans more consistent, because it's not that he's just suddenly evil, it's just not love. You can then still have the the familial love be what saves Anna. You can still have Anna and Kristoff, without villainizing Hans.

[@vger4781]

​@@syniron6670To me it seems obvious that Anna and Hans weren't in love. Two people who have been hurt a lot, desperately clinging to the first person who seems to offer an escape from their past; that's how they looked to me.

[@osmanyousif7849]

Similar to like in Enchanted where Edward's kiss didn't work in Giselle in the climax.

[@ggletv]

your comment is making me think that the trolls are a bunch of frauds just like the "epic sibling love" between anna and elsa. anna didn't kiss anyone when she saved herself so what exactly were the trolls waffling on about?

[@artbytesia]

Yeah, you can tell just by watching that the only reason they had that happen was because they wanted the movie to have a villain. Apparently they didn't think the movie would be complete without one. Even though 1) there already was technically a villain, that being the Duke of Wesselton, and 2) even without either of them, we still have a conflict in the form of Anna and Elsa needing to mend their bond! You don't always need a villain to make a conflict for a movie! Take Finding Nemo, for example! That movie's conflict was mainly in the form of Marlin's clinginess and overprotective desire to keep Nemo safe from any and all trouble and dangers, having promised, in his own words, that he'd "never let anything happen to him," especially after what happened to the rest of his family with the barracuda! But this promise and his helicopter-parent attitude toward him led Nemo to disobey him out of understandable anger, which led to him getting kidnapped, which instigated Marlin's journey to save him! And with help from Dory and some others, he came to realize how overprotective he'd been and learned he has to let Nemo sink or swim, because, as Dory stated, "You can't never let anything happen to him, then nothing would ever happen to him!" In short, the whole movie would not have happened if Marlin hadn't been so overly-sheltering of his son! (Heck, even Marlin himself points this out!) No need for a villain here! Then we have Pooh's Grand Adventure, which had its conflict in the form of a big misunderstanding. Pooh accidentally got honey on a note Christopher Robin had left for him, which rendered Owl unable to read it properly and thus assume he was in a place called Skull, which led to Pooh and his friends going on a quest to find him, and along the way they ran into several troubles, like hearing over and over what sounded like a monster. Then when Christopher Robin found them, they discovered that there was no monster after all and that all the troubles they discovered were just ordinary outdoor spots, having seemed to be scarier for them because of their fears and worries. And on top of that, it turned out that Christopher Robin had just gone to school for the day! It goes to teach how you shouldn't assume the worst all the time and that things may not be as scary as you think! Again, no need for a villain! But apparently Frozen didn't learn from movies like these! Which is weird, because all three movies were at least partly made by Disney! You'd think they'd have learned a thing or two from their own movies! But noooo; they had to be all "Herp derp, this movie needs a villain or it won't be interesting or good enough!" *facepalm*

[@Nopeasaurus]

Here is an snippet from an interview with Chris Briggs, story department supervisor at disney and head of story on Frozen: “In every screening, we were burying this secret and people always wanted us to tip our hand,” Briggs says. “But we stood our ground.” In other words, they valued a cheap plot twist that makes less sense the more you watch it over quality storytelling.

[@agentbullwinkle991]

Sounds like the original plan for Elsa was to show the perspective of "feeling like a burden" for being a family member with mental illness, which is a story that a lot of people like me needed while growing up.

[@Acorn905]

That's what i felt from the movie tbh but if so many people are upset about it yeah the movie makers should of maybe looked a bit deeper into it and it would of been pretty cool

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Literally the only reason why little girls swooned over Elsa is because she's prettier than Anna and has superpowers. How critics could claim that Elsa was empowering is beyond me. Ariel taught girls to fight for their passion, Jasmine taught girls that femininity is power and must be treated with respect and honesty rather than as a trophy, Megara taught girls that a broken heart can be healed, Mulan taught girls that what they lack in muscles can be made up for with brains. Heck, Captain Amelia from Treasure Planet taught girls that accepting help does not make them weak. Elsa is not a role model in any way.

[@harshitanayak1178]

I was having this convo with my friends that when I was young I liked elsa and hated cinderella but now its the opposite, they said to me WHY elsa is so good she fought for herself whereas cinderella just suffered and never took stand for her and just wanted to marry the prince. I was gonna explain them that cinderella never wanted to marry the prince but just wanted to go to ball and that marrying the prince was just a bonus but oh well I can't argue with these elsa stans who think she's a great role model

[@Neropol14]

@@harshitanayak1178 I still think Else is a good character. Not great, but good. She runs away from her responseability and almost destroys the kingdom with that decision. Let it go is, in my eyes, so powerful because it shows that Else believes the Kingdom is better without her and only finds out too late what her decision brought over Arendell.

[@Urlocalbrat365]

I like elsa because it's my opinion

[@Neropol14]

@@Urlocalbrat365 lol

[@hunterolaughlin]

Cinderella taught girls to keep strong and idealistic through dark times and still be kind to others.

[@themartyflorence]

I work as a Disney princess for parties, events, weddings, etc. One of the characters I play most often is Anna. The amount of little girls who have flat out said to me that Elsa is their favorite. Sometimes they explain why and most of the time it is because she has powers or has a cooler dress than Anna. I was a little older than the target audience when Frozen first came out so I can’t comment on it from their POV. However Tangled came out when I was about their age. I couldn’t tell you all the reasons why she was a great character or vocalize my thoughts as well as I can now. However, It didn’t have as much to do with her powers as it had to do with how she used them, she healed people. I also love that the writing skipped over the overused trope of “uh oh I have powers what do I do with them”. Also I love how she used her hair (even without powers) as an extension of herself. Similar to an octopus almost, how she uses it to get around her tower, a swing, a weapon of defense, etc. However when you took that away whether it was it being in a braid or cut, I still thought she was an amazing character. She had so much personality, love, and saw the world in such a beautiful way. She didn’t have the coolest dress or biggest ball gown, she didn’t even have shoes but I fell in love with her. I can’t say the same for Elsa. I also play Rapunzel quite often and kids have so many different things they love about her. She paints, she has a chameleon, she has a frying pan, she is funny, etc. I don’t get that same reaction from little girls when discussing Elsa

[@EtheDragon]

Healing powers are wonderful, that's why it is horrible Rapunzel loses them (even worse that it is Flynn who takes them away). My big complaint about Tangled.

[@themartyflorence]

@@EtheDragon I have good news for you, she regains her powers in the series. I think he doesn’t do it for any other reason besides saving her, he didn’t know they would come back eventually and wasn’t thinking about anything except for her safety in the moment. Plus he knows how the brothers tried to take her for the powers she possessed so though he was helping her.

[@EtheDragon]

@@themartyflorence I know her hair grows back in the series, but as far as I am aware they can no longer heal, they have some other powers instead (like being indestructible)?

[@isabellegoegebuer2777]

@@EtheDragon Raps doesn't lose her healing powers. I remember her healing Flynn with her tears/by crying?

[@EtheDragon]

@@isabellegoegebuer2777 Right, she does, but I thought it was just a one-time thing. Although now that I think of it it is never stated, so perhaps the powers stayed within her even after cutting the hair. Maybe it is left to the viewer's interpretation. I would like to believe she kept her powers, although I don't think she is shown to heal in the series.

[@legitlyspelunking]

I wish they would elaborate more on Elsa's "mental illness", because as is, I haven't seen anyone explicitly say what she's suffering from except trauma which is such a blanket term it feels like a cop out. As someone with avoidant personality disorder, I relate to the urge to shut people out and do everything yourself. But her character is so plot-driven and makes no sense, it's infuriating. Not to mention I don't like the idea that her going on her own was the right thing to do, in both the first and second movies. People need people. Imagine the direction they could have taken if they actually cared about creating a truly nuanced dialogue around mental health.

[@cynicalperson161]

They could've touched more on her isolation from not only her sister but the entire kingdom and her anxieties that came about as a result. It could've been a little talk between her and Anna on their journey to the forest in the second movie.

[@hunterolaughlin]

She actually is surrounded by human contact in the second film with the Northuldran Tribe in the Enchanted Forest and the Elemental Spirits. So even when not living in her kingdom and being around her citizens or her sister, she still has others to socialize and connect with.

[@legitlyspelunking]

@hunterolaughlin That's a fair point, I suppose. It just felt weird to have her distance herself from her sister, who she has a long and close history with. Again I could be projecting but it reeks of avoidance to me

[@frankie3010]

You don't have a personality disorder. You're just shy

[@legitlyspelunking]

@frankie3010 I'm actually great around people, on a surface level. AVPD's defining factor is a fear of intimacy despite a deep longing for it, stemming from emotional neglect in childhood. Your life becomes dictated by this subconscious urge to not be vulnerable for fear of rejection. It permeates so deep you hardly even notice on a cognitive level, but it ends up affecting friendships and relationships, work and even how you live day to day. It sucks like hell, and I literally have an official diagnosis, complete with a 23 page report on the whole testing process I underwent. So no, it's not just being shy.

[@jessicanoelle2012jp]

Vannellopee and Elsa basically had the same story arc of literally leaving their kingdom for their own selfish reasons. A great message for kids: leave all your responsibilities as long as you're happy.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

And with Vanellope, it’s beyond hypocritical because she’s going turbo and gets applauded for it, as opposed to Ralph who gets rightfully called out for it in the first movie. It’s stated over and over that it’s bad to leave your game and yet Vanellope gets to do it without anyone shaming her.

[@jessicanoelle2012jp]

@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343 exactly and when the girls play the game, they LOVE her. So what'll happen when vanellopee isn't an avatar anymore? It should've been that the glitch makes her avatar less likable, giving her more reasons to leave her game.

[@hunterolaughlin]

OH MY GOSH! How many times am I going to have do this?!? Elsa, DID NOT selfishly leave her kingdom. I can understand you feeling Vanellope abandoned her kingdom for selfish reasons as there are some valid arguments, but Elsa had a duty as the guardian of the Elemental Spirits and the Northuldran to fulfill. She is literally the representative of the magical side. Like she said, "She and Anna are the 2 different sides of the bridge. She the magical side and her sister the mortal side." Quit being such a moron!

[@sev1120]

​@@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343if she takes too hard of a hit even once, which is entirely possible in a highly violent online racing game based on GTA, she won't regenerate or respawn. It'll be game over for her, forever

[@AllenTheAnimator004]

​@@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343and since she's not supposed to be in that game,what if Sugar Rush players saw her on a death race? They will file lawsuits on the company who made that game and they'll have no idea what happened and why it happened

[@cream476]

I think that the Broadway version of Frozen makes Elsa a significantly better character. It gives her a clear reason for locking herself away(The trolls show her a vision of the future that makes her believe that her powers will lead to the death of everyone she cares about), shows her desperately wanting to reconnect with Anna, but being to afraid of what will happen if she does, and shows her actually feeling remorseful over what she's done to a point of considering suicide(she lets herself be captured instead though because she's afraid that the storm will get worse if she dies before fixing it). I really wish they would've fixed Hans in the musical too, but for some reason they decided to keep him as a twist villain instead

[@marocat4749]

Why, habs would work fine as douch with a white knight complex vs kristog who is chill but helpful. You dobt need hand as villain to be a problem

[@Nopeasaurus]

Hans being the twist villain was such a braindead take of a character on the writer's part. There was so little done to foreshadow his full blown psychopathy and a villain wasn't even necessary for the story. Hans could have been such a great nuanced character. He could have actually cared about Anna and the citizens of Arendale and sought to kill Elsa for the sole purpose of saving them from an winter they had absolutely had ZERO preparation for. It could show how even those with good intentions can commit a depraved act like attempted murder if convinced its for the sake of someone else. It would've been a great dynamic between Anna and Hans, Hans thinking Elsa is a monster that isn't worth saving and Anna thinking she can save Elsa from herself. Maybe even him working behind her back, believing Anna is blinded by love. This being what drives a wedge in their relationship and what makes Anna put more of her trust in Kristoff. Now, I'm inspired to write a fanfic for this.

[@artbytesia]

​@Nopeasaurus Yeah, it was a horrible idea to do it, and just made several bits of the film even more stupid. My mom: "Teacher's Pet is such a stupid movie!" Frozen: Hold my beer.

[@barbarabaker1457]

You're supposed to hate the parents. Not familiar with the second film, but a friend of mine grew up with a story of Scandinavian origin. Can't find it as it was passed down verbally and not in English, but it's virtually the same plot and it isn't the snow queen. It was a cautionary tale to parents about two princesses. One inherited an ice power that generally skips a generation. Her parents were afraid of the power and when she accidentally hurt her sister they freaked and brought her to the elders (not my little pony trolls). The elders said if they made her afraid of herself she would go mad and become violent. She needed to embrace herself and learn self control. They too ignored it like the movie and Paid for it. When she grew up, she went so insane that she murders her parents at sea with an ice wave, panics, tells no one and shuts down the kingdom upon becoming queen. A suspicious merchant (don't think a Duke) uncovers her secret and dies, she runs away, leaving the kingdom icy cold in her wake. Her sister chases after her, out of love, but is impaled through the heart with a shard of ice. The people learn of this, revolt, and start a war to kill this ice queen. Many people die, including the ice queen and the kingdom remains frozen forever. No love interests, so I imagine those two characters were actually based on The Snow Queen (enchanter who tricks someone into loving them for their own ends and a cute, but also naive, love interest that is genuinely devoted). Also no snowman that I know of. I heard it's obvious what they ripped off in the second movie but I wasn't interested. And frankly the music never impressed me when compared to other Disney musicals.

[@LGFPO5891]

Do you remember the name? I’m interested in it now

[@barbarabaker1457]

@@LGFPO5891 I had trouble finding it when I looked up ice queen. My friend swear she once founded in Russian, which doesn't make sense to me, but I don't know much about Scandinavia. To be fair, searching fairy tales is very difficult. I lost a book that had an African fairy tale, I couldn't remember the name of the character but I remember he had the title the glutton. I couldn't find it for the life of me and I kept finding this spider story that's very popular in Africa, but it was definitely not that. The story was about a dude who keeps messing up. His wife cleans up after him. He keeps saying you knew me when you married me as an excuse and then she eventually leaves in his own mess and says I know you. I looked for 3 months. Nothing. But I had read it personally from a book so I knew it existed. 6 months later I ask my publisher as it was critical for my writing and he finds it in a week. That could just mean I'm not good at this so maybe you'll find this ice queen, if that's even the title. Interestingly enough, when he found the fairy tale I found out it wasn't from the country it said it was in the book, that it was a country that had adopted it from a different country in Africa.

[@barbarabaker1457]

Update. I had a couple of friends who said the second movie is the fifth Element. If you've seen it, let me know what you think.

[@barbarabaker1457]

Oh yeah, the African fairy tale I mentioned on the side is called Ansige Karamba, The Glutton.

[@laylasnailz2394]

@@barbarabaker1457They compared Frozen 2 to the movie The Fifth Element?

[@2l84me8]

Elsa’a writing change from villain to hero really hurt the narrative of Frozen and changed Hans for the worst as a result. Elsa seemed more interesting of a character right before Let It Go and barely contributes to the plot at all afterwards. She just runs away from her problems until the movie forces her into a conclusion that wasn’t earned and everyone celebrates her without realizing it. Anna was fleshed out as we would expect a hero to be, but Elsa wasn’t as a result of the writing change. In short, Elsa is not really a character. She’s just a pretty woman used exclusively for marketing and Disney knows this.

[@Jdudec367]

Nah it made it better really except for Hans. Not really, she contributes to the plot and is key to it after Let it Go too. No it was earned as she develops and learns from her mistakes and people celebrated and they realize the truth that you really aren't seeing. No Elsa was fleshed out even with the writing change. No she is a character. That isn't true at all at least for the original film.

[@Treasure_hunter_21]

​@jaydenc367 wow, I'm lost wherever you're just a troll) or is a serious Elsa Stan.

[@Jdudec367]

@@Treasure_hunter_21 Neither actually.

[@artbytesia]

Making me more nervous for my young nieces when they're holding Elsa dolls.

[@2l84me8]

@@artbytesia Lol! Don’t worry about it. Elsa is a popular character with a pretty appearance. It’s only natural youngsters would flock to her. I’m sure one day they’ll rewatch the movie as adults and think differently about it, or maybe not.

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

i think this movie should have been a tightly written family drama, no villain needed. just the two girls struggling with the damage their parents inflicted with the best intentions. I don't mind Hans, but perhaps rather than a twist, a realisation that she cared for him, but it wasn't love would have been enough to make him meaningful. I think Christof is not needed in the story, and the few things he does do that are truly meaningful could have been transferred to one of the remaining characters, like olaf and anna herself

[@aff77141]

Or if anything with Kristoff, pit him as another resource towards Elsa; a simple if strange orphan child of ice harvesters who's kinda conflicted about the whole blizzard thing and can have a conversation with her, outsider to outsider, at first helping her but ultimately confronting her, guiding Anna, just really any role besides being a lampshade support to Anna would breathe new life into the whole thing

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

It feels like what the movie wants to be, but the shift came too late in development. To reimagine the scene that breaks the movie into something that would work: Hans: ofcourse i'll help! What do you need? Anna: an act of true love Hans: that should be easy. Come here. He hugs her close, and they kiss, and you can tell that for him it's true love, but... No magical resolution. It doesn't work. Hans lets go of her, and you can tell the heartbreak on his face, as she pulls away in confusion. Hans: I'm sorry... It looks like i can't help you after all. Hans turns away so she, and the audience can't see his heart break any further. Hans: guess... What we have isn't the love you need. Go... Find your sister. If she can't help you, no one can. I'll hold down the fort here.

[@marocat4749]

Or make hans an immatoure douch with a white knight complex showing his true colours vs kristof who just is vibing betterwhile helping anna? Basically hans could been toxicmasculinity ,not a twist Which would fit way better in a drama as well. Hell have him mess up with trying to " save" anna at the end with soldiers and messing up. . Hans genuinly could have said something about toxic masculinity and be like gaston. In he isnt the villain, but anuance and hatable

[@artbytesia]

Do I need to mention once again how awful the writing for this film is? Come on, Double Rainboom has better writing than this!

[@ChammiKim]

Agreed! I'm pretty tired of people saying Elsa needed to be the villain. Especially if they had focused on Elsa's mental health. 🙃 Frozen could have focused on the fractured relationship between Anna and Elsa kinda like how the first half of Brave was focused on the strained relationship between Merida and her mother.

[@toastiest.the.mostiest255]

I was pretty young when this movie came out, around 6 or 7. I genuinely thought upon my first viewing that Elsa was supposed to be the villain, and that the finale was her redemption. Every action Elsa made negatively affected the story, and since I'd grown up on older Disney movies, i perceived her as the main villain, and Hans as a lesser villain, a catalyst to make the climax have more action. The bold makeup and magic and lack of real care for others in the story just fit the feel of a classic Disney villain. Even to young me, Frozen did a poor job of expressing Elsa as a good person or character.

[@hearmeout1767]

This reminds me how my little cousin was absolutely terrified that Elsa would come into her house and freeze her heart. 😅 I guess she saw Elsa as a villain too.

[@curryfishheadenjoyer]

i was like 10 when i watched frozen in theatres and i felt like something was missing from the movie. after learning elsa was supposed to be the villain (and reading the original snow queen story) i felt so robbed even as a 10 year old

[@vanemartinez2986]

Same. I remember being little and saw a poster of Elsa and Anna and when I saw Elsa I thought she would be like a sister that is a villain. I also thought she looked cool when I was young.

[@anoushkashenoy692]

Same. I always hated Elsa and never really liked Frozen

[@EvelynL.1112]

@@anoushkashenoy692 Same

[@SilverRagaire]

I truly believe Elsa is so popular because shes a blank slate. You can almost imprint on her because you too had [Insert bad event in childhood], or you have [Insert destructive talent that needs to be refined], or you also [Insert journey of personal growth here]. She’s basically like a voiced Player Character in a way.

[@SilverRagaire]

@@syniron6670 No. The song is actually pretty basic, singer carries it. People want to be Elsa, not because of a song, but because she a two dimensional character.

[@tarnw3301]

Like Bella from Twilight. But blander?

[@EvelynL.1112]

@@SilverRagaire EXACTLY

[@OriasRofocale]

I remember a cut scene that showed Elsa and Anna interacting about borrowing shoes and Anna hanging out in town... you know, scenes from a world where Elsa wasn't completely isolated from Anna and they had a sibling relationship. Elsa still had signs of issues she was working through, but they also let them have an ongoing sibling bond. They also were going to have Anna not have to be a shut in as well, and just fretting about being a spare. Basically that their parents didn't completely stunt both of their social development. I think that would have felt more natural.

[@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339]

The second part is was always annoyed me the most: why did ANNA have to be imprisoned just because her sister preferred shutting herself off from the outside world? Who went to Anna after the funeral and told her she was not allowed to talk to anyone anymore? Who ran the country while both sisters were stuck at home??

[@Acorn905]

I wanted Anna and Elsa to be together more too. Since Elsa learned that shutting Anna out is bad now she could of learned how to include her more. Her wanting to protect Anna and Anna wanted to help Elsa could of been talked about more and it could've been great. Alsow tho they're cheesy i kind of like "chosen one" caracters but i would of loved to see both Anna and Elsa meet their mother in "show yourself" or have them be in a save the world climax together while doing something important. I still liked Anna adventuring by herself with Olaf cus it showed her being strong and courageous but them being together is what i think the movie missed.

[@cakecrumb095]

It’s insane how fan writers can manage to create a mature (while still whimsical) take on Frozen and Frozen 2, and the official writers couldn’t make it work. Frozen breaks my heart. It’s teetering on the edge of genius, but it keeps stopping itself from getting there.

[@AnimaVox_]

This right here is why this franchise irks me so much. It came so close to being good. Yet, it settled for mediocrity, which we're apparently supposed to celebrate. I don't even dislike the characters, they have so much storytelling potential-if only the writers weren't so incompetent.

[@normadgarmez7026]

Because some of the fan writers care about story, plot, and character. The people running Disney care about IPs, merchandise, and money money money.

[@artbytesia]

​@@normadgarmez7026 Such a dang shame.

[@Nopeasaurus]

could u recommend me some of these fan works?

[@ivanbluecool]

What makes elsa bad is what makes rupunzel great. Raps opened up to people even though she was locked away for so long and got to know the kingdom on a personal level. Elsa literally ran away from her responsibility twice where a sociopath was able to do her job better than her in less than a week even if her power was dangerous. Her parents honestly just offed themselves if we don't bring up the Tarzan thing by running too. Anna is honestly so underated due to not being the pretty one or having the iconic song

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

Elsa is literally a marketable toy no personality only looks

[@frankie3010]

Rapunzel's powers weren't as dangerous.

[@2l84me8]

Anna’s at least cute.

[@hunterolaughlin]

Actually the theory of King Agnarr and Queen Iduna being Tarzan's parents is debunked in the sequel. Plus, even if Frozen was a standalone film, the theory is still bulls*** anyways considering the two don't look anything alike since they're clearly from different time periods and ethnicities with the Queen and King being Norwegian rulers from the 1840s and Tarzan's parents being a Victorian couple during the 1880s, and the differences of how their respective ships they were sailing on went down in the opening of their films. Tarzan's parents ship caught on fire and sank, while King Agnarr and Queen Iduna's ship immediately sank during a storm without catching on fire. Also, even if the King and Queen were to have a third child, they wouldn't bring him on a dangerous voyage and would’ve left him in the care of his sisters.

[@nekohybrid7610]

And Rapunzel became horrible as a person in the tv series.

[@queenofeverything4004]

When I first watched Frozen I LOVED Anna. A bubbly girl who grew beyond expectations to save her sister AND her kingdom, who's always treated second best but fights for everything. I knew little girls loved Elsa cause she got the better song and the sparkling outfit and magic but as a character Anna was much more interesting. When Frozen 2 came out I was excited to finally see the Anna recognition I wanted - only to be let down. Anna is still treated second best throughout whole movie. Elsa gets both of the main songs, Elsa showed no character growth since the first movie, Elsa endangers her sister and faces no repercussion for it, Elsa is the fifth spirit, Elsa gets the sparkling outfit, Elsa gets to see her mother for the last time, Elsa Elsa Elsa. At least she's more active this time. But still, I'd have loved that both girls would have been the fifth spirit (maybe not make the fifth spirit ice but community or something), I'd love if one of the main songs would have been a duet and the least they should have given Anna was to see the ghost of her father in the cave. She's such a cool and admirable girl and the movies as well as the fandom treat her like a dopey sidekick

[@mintkit1064]

Same, I always loved Anna. She's so great and such a good loving character. I liked Elsa fine in the first movie, but the sequel ruined both. Elsa learned nothing, and Anna becomes a weird annoying character. The second movie is just so lame imo

[@vger4781]

This reminds me of a fan scene I saw on KZbin once, where Iduna is talking to Elsa in Ahtohallan (or however you spell that) and Elsa says soemtning like:"The fifth spirit is ice? I'm the fifth spirit?" And Iduna replies:"No, the fifth spirit is love. Anna is the fifth spirit. Not everything is about you, Elsa!" Made me laugh.

[@kidcooper02]

The deleted song of Life's Too Short makes Elsa's character ten times more interesting in those few minutes than the whole movie. Of showing how this isolation really amplified her "its me against the world" ideology, and how it contrasts with Anna's need for people. It gives a much needed and understandable conflict for her character, for sisters who've spent years apart who gain this burst of resentment for one another due to how different of people they've become. I really wish we got it instead of FTIF reprise

[@Cloudystxrr]

i was literally just thinking about this

[@Nopeasaurus]

i actually prefer the reprise, it sounds much better and hits more emotionally. Life’s too short sucked as a song and sounded too upbeat. It also had elsa behave really out of character, tossing ice blasts repeatedly at her sister while anna tries to dodge them. elsa may be selfish but she wouldnt try to hurt anna on purpose. the reprise also reaffirms elsa is selfish but in a sympathic way, revealing she is driven more by fear of hurting others and a desire for freedom rather than just complete apathy.

[@ArtzyZero]

They could've kept Hans as an antagonist without needing a twist if they had him want to marry Anna to finally have place in ruling a kingdom, not because he loves her and left it at that. He cares about how he is perceived and he wants to prove himself and save the kingdom, he really does want to be a good Prince and leader. When his pleas for Elsa to fix it falls flat he becomes frustrated, then the Duke suggests striking Elsa down and while reluctant at first, seeing 'his' kingdom falling apart he caves to his desperation and moves to kill Elsa. Perhaps he investigates the area around Elsa's castle and sees evidence of footprints by the cliff edge, assuming Anna is dead so he can still drop that bombshell on Elsa. When it comes to the confrontation on the lake Anna sees her sister and ignores her condition to reach her, wanting to see her again before its too late. She spots Hans with the sword and acts as she does in the movie. You still get Hans as the villan but his actions are in line with his goal. You get rid of the twist and now have more time for important scenes, maybe do something with that Duke character since his only purpose is to be a red herring.

[@unstoopableduo9897]

Dude that would've been so angsty! Since Hans still loved Anna he would realize just how badly he f*cked up

[@marocat4749]

I would make him basically gaston, with awhite knight complex. But that isnt a twist, it just comes more out when he doesnt accomply her , but kristof does, where they connect, and hans is trying to "rescue" anna from elsa at the end But because he is gaston, with a white knight complex.

[@bacchiguu86]

I'm annoyed in general at Frozen 2, but the worst thing about it was how it ruined the potential for Elsa as a character. One of the moments that really stuck with me in the beginning was Anna telling Elsa how she wished Elsa loved herself like she did. (Man that made me tear up.) They could've had so much build-up starting with that at how Elsa could've thought she was losing her mind with the voice in her head and how much it was distracting her from her duties thus it was putting her back in a poor mental head space. And that she felt the voice was confirming or telling her that she wasn't meant to be there/be Queen because of her powers. It would've made 'Into the Unknown' actually made sense. Like you're entirely correct on the problem that there was no build-up (because of time) and thus no reason why any of the characters, especially Elsa, in Frozen 2 felt the way they felt or ended up in the positions they did at the end (like Elsa living in the forest and Anna having no problems being the Queen...and the most perfectest ever according to the books that came after the movie...despite her childish, carefree personality). However, the poor writing and even things like "oh we're going to make her hear a voice! Whose voice you ask? Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh" (just trash the idea then!) would be made worse if these movies were 2 hours long. I dunno if they would be able to pull them off even with that amount of time. Look at the new Indiana Jones movie - they had tons of time but none of the characters felt like they had grown by the end. Also Elsa repeating her same mistake by pushing away Anna (literally this time, down a dangerous path of ice, into a dangerous waterway, at 100 miles per hr....) made my friends and I groan at the same time. They could've separated them in any number of ways, but chose to make Elsa do THAT. So frustrating. Poor writing and planning, period. Also Disney rushing them and them listening to the test audience's suggestions...that never ends well.

[@thecosplaycrafter8017]

My mum is 100% convinced that Hans's total shift in the movie was for audience misdirection as well as Anna misdirection, but the twist villains that work well (Waternoose, Lotso, Stinky Pete, most of Pixar's) work because there are hints of their villainy that you can pick up early on in a rewatch. That doesn't exist with Hans. I'm convinced the trolls made him evil to "get the fiancé out of the way." He only shows any hint of his supposed true colours after Fixer Upper.

[@traviscunningham7062]

What about King Candy?

[@thecosplaycrafter8017]

King Candy drops little hints too. Hans was just a complete turn of the heels at the last second because Disney needed a new villain since Elsa wasn't one anymore.

[@jc1979af]

​. King Candy drops a big hint when we first meet him as he says the palace is "salmon not pink". That is an indicator that the palace is not orgionally his.

[@sunburst6598]

Anna was always the better sister, change my mind.

[@EvelynL.1112]

THIS, even though she was poorly-written too.

[@Nopeasaurus]

Anna isn't any better, to be honest. She accepts the proposal of a guy she only knew for barely a day, throws a temper tantrum when Elsa doesn't give her blessing to marry said guy causing a huge scene and (unintentionally) revealing Elsa's powers to the public, she carelessly runs after Elsa without an escort and leaves her frozen kingdom with its dying people in the hands of a power hungry foreign prince who later ends up imprisoning and nearly decapitating her sister, and Anna is such a stupid bimbo she doesn't even learn the lesson of "you can't marry a man you just met" on her own, no her fiancé has to go full psycho and teach it to her. And guess what? She doesn't even learn the lesson because ten minutes later, she is making out with a a different guy she just met three days ago. And the fact that the trolls told her "yo, your curse can be broken through an ACT OF TRUE LOVE" and she misinterprets that as "a true love's kiss" is straight up crackbrained. In Frozen II, Anna is somehow even worse: she decides to "do the next right thing" and destroy a dam which would flood her kingdom and leave everyone homeless in order to appease some dumb spirits. She then becomes queen of said kingdom she nearly destroyed and erects the statue of her abusive parents as children for everyone to fawn over and adore although they did nothing heroic whatsoever. I will admit Anna, unlike Elsa, actually does take responsibility for her actions, actively risks her life to find Elsa and convince her to return to Arendale, and sacrifices her life to save Elsa. Those qualities alone make her far more virtuous than Elsa but it doesn't make her better. I think Elsa and Anna both needed better character development. Anna should have learned ON HER OWN that the "true love" she needed was sisterly love, not have her learn the hard way through Hans and then run after the next man who could love and kiss her. As for Elsa, her trauma is never resolved, she just goes "oh yeah true love was the solution this whole time!" and thaws the kingdom and everyone--including Anna and the citizens--conveniently forget that Elsa nearly killed them and ice skate happily at the end of the movie. They should have had Elsa apologize to Anna for everything and try to make amends to the people by trying to win their trust back.

[@teresagarcia5352]

@@Nopeasaurustbf she faces consequences just like Elsa and you gotta remember Anna never had a life outside of the castle cause of her parents

[@Princess_of_cute]

You know, ever since the second movie, I can’t but hate Elsa. People say that there is not really a moment where she begins to learn, but there is. Let’s begin with the ending of the first movie. Things are broken, for sure, nothing is just perfect, even if it looked like it, but Frozen Fever actually showed a good moment of Elsa’s growth. She struggled the whole time to open up about how bad she actually felt, because she got sick, right on the birthday of her sister. In the end she actually was honest, let her sister know, finally opening her doors. In Olaf‘s Christmas… or whatever name, she first blames her self, pretty much again shutting others out, not realizing that not everything is in her control but then seeing, that, while she suffered, her sister is right there too. Both went through rough times, because of their parents, so they have to stick together, because that way they will be able to heal. Then the second frozen movie comes around and everything is flushed down the toilet. All the progress, gone, so that Elsa can shut everyone out again, pushing her responsibilities onto Anna, to be free and live in a forest. Sweet. I hate it!

[@rift_right3259]

She's just struggling with issues, she's not perfect and who says that just because she grew emotionally in the first movie doesn't mean that she's problem free all of the sudden.

[@Princess_of_cute]

@@rift_right3259 No one said that, and I didn't say that she emotionally grew in the first. That was not really happening, she was just able to finally heal properly. In the shorts, she actually began to heal and become better, finally seeing that she is not the problem of everything and that her sister is right there! I get what you mean, people sometimes learn and still tend to fall back to their old ways, but it gets frustrating, especially when the character showing these traits is hurting others, while selfishly thinking they're doing the best for people around them. It's true, she has issues, no one is perfect either, but the viewer will go their way and possibly get upset, because it is frustrating.

[@Nopeasaurus]

As a huge Elsa fan, I agree. I forgive Elsa in Frozen because she has a reason to act the way she did: she was afraid, didnt know how to control her powers, and wanted to protect Anna. But I can't forgive her in Frozen II because she has no good excuse to abandon Anna and Arendale. She wasn't afraid anymore and had better control over her powers. The only reason she did it so she could "be free" and ride a water horse all day. And no, I don't care what people say, she didn't need to "protect the forest" when there are already spirits there to protect it.

[@sakura4331]

Am I the only one who thinks that Once Upon A Time did a bit better job than Frozen 2? By all means, it's not perfect, but it did made sense since in the story, Anna and Elsa has an aunt who is the original Snow Queen. Their mom, Iduna feared her sister and trapped her. It's a better plot than Frozen 2 did, but Disney should at least draw some inspiration from the show. Also sometimes I wondered if they could've just merge Hans and Christoph's character together. Like keep Hans good as he was supposed to be and when he's not using his royal prince persona, he acts like Christoph. Still keep Sven and have him obsessed with ice. The message would still be there about don't marry someone you just met and after they got to know each other for three days and when the true loves kiss didn't work, they could still keep their relationship which would lead to Frozen 2. Also at the same time, it would established a treaty and more trade between the two kingdoms.

[@Muna-Jlore0997]

i agree. OUAT Frozen Arc made a lot more sense. and the original snow queen would have been a perfect antagonist for elsa's character.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Muna-Jlore0997 I think the Snow Queen would have worked better as a mini series. The Snow Queen is just Gerda going on a journey to save Kai. It works in a fable, but very difficult to work well in film.

[@mupty]

I say OUAT did the first movie better, especially with Elsa's character and how she had to gain control of her powers.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@mupty thank you

[@marikkelaszlo3355]

@@orangeslash1667 The funny thing is that there is a mini series about the Snow Queen and it's made by Hallmark! Gerda finds Kai but the episodes are like 90 minutes long and each female character she meets are representative of the seasons and how they act, spring and summer are nice but they want to keep her for themselves but autumn is vicious and imprison her while winter (the snow queen) outright try to kill her. Also in the movie, there's a subplot where the snow queen uses an evil mirror to make it winter forever but it breaks into pieces which gets into people (this causes her to kill and kidnap those with the mirror shards), it's also why she kidnaps Kai and Gerda has to find him.

[@alissa2228]

Honestly, I never liked Frozen, and I never liked Elsa. I always thought that Rapunzel was a much better princess. I was living abroad when Frozen came out, and so I missed the majority of the initial hype. But Frozen was one of the first movies I saw when I got back, and I was like "Seriously? This is what everyone has been freaking out about over the past year?" I felt the plot didn't entirely make sense; that Hans as the villain was weird, since he never acted evil until the switch and they never gave any indicators beforehand; and that Anna/Elsa saving her sister because that is the real true love seemed unbelievable because of their enstranged nature. If they spent all those years apart as sibling (yes, I know they lived in the same castle, but they didn't interact. They could have kept the separation and still given them a relationship by having them have conversations through the door or something, rather than having Elsa actively abandon her), then their relationship wouldn't be all that close. Their closeness always seemed inauthentic to me. However all those misgivings make more sense with the idea that Elsa was the original intended villain, and then changed at the last minute.

[@artbytesia]

Yeah, having her as the villain would've made it so much better!

[@cerulee]

Tangled deserved the love Frozen got.

[@catholicfemininity2126]

To me; Elsa looks really dumb for not explaining why she doesn't wanna see Anna. They could've had a scene with her conflicted about telling Anna the truth but deciding not to for 'reasons' she thinks are good or her parents told her.

[@_cristalie]

I really don't like Elsa, everything is about her, she never thinks about how Anna feels about being left out, never apologizes, never tries to make amends. What annoys me the most about Elsa is that she thinks she can do everything herself, but she can't! "I have my powers to protect me" it seems that it's not okay to need someone, only Elsa doesn't assume she needs Anna! The scene that annoys me the most is when Anna says she installed the strongest winter and she kicks Anna out with the Marshmallow without even worrying about how was Arendelle. And it gets worse! She puts the monster to expel Anna without even worrying about having frozen her sister's heart! Surely she remembered the troll meeting and could at least speak where to go. She simply makes Anna, Kristoff, Olaf and Sven do their best to fix everything and help her as a gift.

[@monstrouspegasister]

I'm kinda surprised Disney never made a Frozen TV series. In fact, I'd like to see one, because it might flesh out the story and characters more, as well as fix some of the plotholes, ESPECIALLY after Frozen 2!

[@amymonemontoya]

I wonder if the acting talent would have been too expensive for a series. Neither sister did a cameo for Sofia; They got Olaf!

[@monstrouspegasister]

@@amymonemontoya Honestly, I think they got the better deal. 🤷‍♀️

[@mitsume_slay]

They should've oml it be better

[@WalkingJellyfish]

It's too difficult. Frozen's plot is so weak and unviable that it is simply impossible to fix it, you just need to erase everything and write again from scratch.

[@DSS712]

I've thought about this too, but one thing I realized is that when I find myself saying "This movie would have worked as a TV show," what that actually translates to is that the writers did a bad job at writing a movie. Writing a movie is much harder than writing a tv show because you need to be able to condense the entire plot and character arcs into a 1.5~2.5 hour window, which places a lot more importance on pacing and fat trimming in order for the story to be engaging. There can't be ANY screen time wasted on things that don't contribute to the central conflict, and Frozen just has too much wasted screen time. IMO the first 15ish minutes of Frozen (beginning until the moment Ana meets Hans) are actually really awesome. I hate this movie but I love the opening sequence. After that point, we start getting introduced to more and more characters snowballing (no pun intended) into the story and their involvement just plows over (pun intended that time) the central relationship which was so front and center in the opening.

[@i.s.9451]

This is also why I liked "Life's Too Short". It made the relationship deeper, showing Elsa's fear for being 'caged'. I think they should have kept this one.

[@ethanstatler1827]

Say what you want about Elsa, or how good or bad the Frozen movies are or was. But I’m sure we can all agree that Frozen 3 is a bad idea, especially with Disney’s reputation of bad sequels.

[@lysander3459]

+1. It's an awful idea. I expect frozen 3 to be as bad as mulan 2 or even worse and I'm not even joking. The plot will be some bullshit, like anna and kristoff's child having magical powers and elsa is teaching them how to use it or something like that. *eyeroll*

[@normadgarmez7026]

That's for sure. If they can pull off a Cinderella 3 with that film and just end it there. Just original films, with comics, books... and shorts on the side.

[@screamitout2161]

absolutely

[@Acorn905]

Agreed, i love seeing new desings and new outfits, seeing the caracters in different environnements and seeing them interact together but writing, directing and plot wise i don't think ther is any need for another one :/

[@artbytesia]

What more is there to even do? Anna's queen of Arendelle, Elsa lives in that forest, Hans is jailed...How do you continue from that?!

[@mupty]

If they wanted to do a mental illness analogy, Frozen was NOT the film to do this. Too many illogical and unrealistic decisions made by characters and plot holes galore.

[@artbytesia]

AGREED!!

[@psychgeekgirl3037]

I want to add something from the perspective of someone with a mental illness that doesn’t think Elsa’s representation is good at all. 1st. Her parents. While definitely misguided, they were trying to find ways to help Elsa control her powers. In the same way that fear grips Elsa’s heart, it grips her parents as well. Up until they accident they have no trouble with the powers because they don’t see the danger. Then the danger happens and they forget the good. This happens a lot with parents of kids with mental illness so I actually like their complicated representation. Too bad the second movie retcons this. 2nd. Elsa no longer a villain. People with mental illness lash out when they don’t know how to handle their mental illness and it’s very common especially if they’re bottling it up (which we see happening with Elsa). When this happens we see a release (explosion) of emotion and then we see a return to baseline (original behavior). The start of this where Elsa runs away and decides to stay away is good, and even let it go is good, but the problem comes in when Anna explains the situation and tries to help her, we’re supposed to (according to the movie) think that Elsa is in the right here, staying away and once again secluding herself, but when she’s called out on it and hurts her sister, she’s not held accountable for her actions. While a person can’t control their actions during a psychotic break (which I would guess is happening) they are still culpable after the break is over. Elsa doesn’t apologize or even accept responsibility for her actions, and by the second movie she’s seen more like a super hero than someone struggling with mental illness. (Ironically, super hero movies like X-Men are a better representation for this). Had Elsa been the original villain, the same story beats could occur where everyone else thinks she’s a villain though in reality, she’s struggling. We’d be happy she “let it go” but also recognize that living away from everyone is not the answer. She then could go through a REAL character arc (not just saying “oh yeah, love will work with this”) and come to understand both herself and her sister more. The musical Frozen does a great job with this by giving Elsa one more song called “Monster” that I really related to as it fit a lot of the emotions I feel, especially after a psychotic break. 3rd. Hans. By giving a twist villain who’s a mustache twirling bad guy, it eliminates the purpose of examining the relationship between Anna and Elsa and focusing on where they both need to communicate with each other more and seek to understand. The whole drama at that point doesn’t work because it goes from being a focus on their brokenness as a family, and turns to “Hans is so bad, but we beat him”. At this, it loses its focus entirely.

[@tiezoc757]

Elsa is a terrible person in the 2nd movie. This is why I pretend Frozen 2 never existed and Once Upon A Time is the true continuation of Frozen. If you haven't see the Once Upon A Time Frozen arc, I highly recommend it. It has its flaws too, but better covers Anna & Elsa's parents, Elsa is good sister unlike in Frozen 2 and the chemistry between the Anna & Kristof actors is pure peak. Looking at the first Frozen with Once Upon A Time as the actual continuation, Elsa is a really good character with fleshed out development. I do agree the first should have gave us more on Elsa's journey, but I feel she is still understandable.

[@sunlightangel87]

Exactly. The Once Upon A Time continuation makes 100x more sense than Frozen 2. And actually makes Hans a villain that makes a hell of a lot more sense.

[@Nopeasaurus]

I agree. Once Upon A Time had a silly plotline of Hans coming back for revenge and basically being the same exact cartoonishly evil villain with no substance he was in the canon film BUT at least the show nailed the characterization of Elsa, Anna, Kristoff and the chemistry between all of them is superb. And while I am not a fan of OUAT, I don't mind it existing because it isnt canon like Frozen II and doesn't undermine the lesson of the first film. Frozen II is a movie that shouldnt even exist, it takes the characters I love and mutilates them beyond recognition. It applauds Elsa for running away from her problems and dumping her responsibilities onto her sister. It praises Anna for deciding to destroy a dam that will flood her kingdom as an act of reparations instead of the harmful radical activism that it actually is. I am honestly repulsed that such a movie can exist.

[@cococowboah]

The universe where Elsa was a villian is the good timeline.

[@Maria_Miciano_5]

Reminds me of the Schaffrillas video about Frozen where Elsa is only the hair and dress. Nothing else and I kind of agree. There are definitely good parts in both movies. Like my favorite song in this franchise is Show Yourself. I wish the movies had more time to be prepared.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

That's why I clicked on this! LOL!

[@Jdudec367]

Eh....like this video he was wrong too and there is a good response video to that one.

[@hymnsforchrist3620]

I never liked Frozen despite loving Tangled and many of the other princesses, but I could never really explain why. Thanks for explaining what I couldn't!

[@TheAnonyomusGuy]

If I'm remembering right? They basically rewrote most of the movie. Because of the song, let it go.

[@1992disney]

You're correct.

[@artbytesia]

Which is one of the major reasons I'm not too keen on that song. It became the spice that spoiled the soup.

[@Flaris]

Elsa had potential...as a villain. Sure make her a redeemable villain if you can't stomach killing her off. But they had the perfect setup and just tossed it. I mean Hans as the villain? It was a stupid twist and yeah it took away from Elsa as a decently set antagonist. Sure, he had a great song. I actually liked it. But everything they did with Elsa just felt weak. Too bad really. She had a good power set, great voice work, and there was potential.

[@StuffwellakaTy]

At this point, Elsa is nothing more than just a marketing tool to sell toys and other merchandise when you have a Disney princess and character who has been around longer by at least 11 years before this overrated drama Queen and her name is Kida! She’s a better developed character, she (kinda) has powers but only when fused with the Heart of Atlantis crystal, AND she was the first Disney princess to also become queen of her land by the conclusion of her film BEFORE this mess of a overrated and under developed character. I get that Atlantis didn’t do very well but if the studio just made an effort to bring Atlantis back into the public minds and hearts it could have the potential to finally get its proper due and maybe finally add Kida in her proper place as an official Disney princess. I am sick and tired of how they constantly wave Frozen in our faces like it’s their best film ever and it really isn’t. Either they need to wake up and do a better job with Frozen 3 or just stop with this Frozen madness altogether (which isn’t going to happen) and focus on more worthwhile projects and once and for all, let it all go.

[@artbytesia]

The main problem is that they just want money. That's it. 😢

[@traviscunningham7062]

Even Mario has more character than Elsa

[@artbytesia]

@@traviscunningham7062 Indeed!

[@marocat4749]

And the series episodes that became atlantis 2 really work as shoe format. With the diplomacy and atlantian technology being sll over archiology. Ok it kinda reminded me of stargate but in a good way how it could have worked well as series.

[@Scarshadow666]

As someone who has struggled with some mental health stuff lately (and ended up finding Elsa relateable due to going through similar mental health struggles that I've been through), her selfishness makes sense to me, especially as someone with mild social anxiety and trust/vulnerability issues. Unfortunately, when it comes to healing from mental health struggles, selfishness tends to be a factor and it's very easy to spiral when it comes to imposter syndrome and increased anxiety issues. :( I do agree there probably should have been a lot more stuff with Anna where she should have apologized more and a bunch of other stuff, but I guess they didn't have that since both girls didn't have the best social development that most other kids normally have.

[@OpticalSorcerer]

I'll say the same I did on another video: I like Elsa and understand her feelings, but her struggle with her powers is her whole story; we don't get to know who she is outside of it, which is my biggest issue.

[@emmaphilo4049]

I totally agree, you've written my thoughts

[@paolabetancourt3365]

THANK YOU. I HATE their parents too. How can they be so loving and caring and yet, fucked their daughters up so much? It’s awful

[@rift_right3259]

They had the best intentions and they did follow what those Trolls advised them to do

[@Kikiricki11]

@@rift_right3259When? All they said was that there is a danger to her powers and fear will be her enemy. And the king was like „she can learn to control it…. For that we cut her off and shut off the outside world“ 😂

[@artbytesia]

And people give Buck Cluck a lot of flack...

[@shadowleon659]

Elsa put her entire kingdom in danger and even summoned a snow monster to kill Anna and Kristoff. Scared or not she should have told the truth. Yep, she should have been the bad guy.

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

Deleted scenes of her villany made her more interesting than this bland plank

[@lilac3266]

exactly and they never mentioned that again like ???

[@thebluestegosaurus]

I’m so glad this video and others like it exists. I’m convinced that all the little girls that fell in love with this movie were drawn in because of the beautiful art and the fun songs, but ever since I saw the first one I was like how is Elsa the hero??

[@infiniduck4303]

Elsa is the exact reason why Frozen is my LEAST fave Disney movie. She's poorly written as a character. When she does selfish and awful things, she NEVER apologizes for what she did. (Mental illness or not, there is NO excuse for freezing your own kingdom and leaving everyone in it for dead. Period!)

[@rift_right3259]

I don't think that she intentionally meant to freeze her own kingdom, she was simply scared of her own powers. I'm not trying to" commend" you but it's just an opinion

[@jenniferhiemstra5228]

Honestly....what really sucks is that she was clearly a lightning-in-a bottle-character and they wasted that opportunity SO HARD. There was was opportunity to make this epic ala 90's Renaissance, but NO, quality be damned, and focus groups that amount to nothing except quantitative crap made the cut.

[@PrincessSerene]

Yeah, Frozen 2 begged the question, "Why the ****** did the mother not tell Elsa the TRUTH???!!!!"

[@jacobweems3316]

Because the mom didn’t have a VA in the first movie duh although director Jennifer Lee does say her one line

[@NicoleMP885]

I feel like they could have done something like Rameses from the prince of Egypt, like, she would start off as a protagonist, and then slowly become the villian.

[@MinimalistTheatre333]

I ended up writing a fanfiction where Anna seemingly dies during the climax of the first film. Elsa flees north, taking all of the ice with her. After a few years, she flies south to look for a new Anna and comes across the boy from the original story, setting the events of that story in motion. Elsa could have been a great villain if Disney stuck to the original Snow Queen tale. Have a villain with a tragic backstory that made her into an unhinged kidnapper. It may have worked. The fairy tale was perhaps my favourite growing up because it didn't have that soppy, lovey-dovey part, but Disney butchered it. PS: In my story, I also have Elsa take out the mirror shard from the boy's eye after realising that if she really does love him then she has to let him go. As he runs away and she seals up the ice castle, she sings 'For Evermore' from the remake of Beauty and the Beast, the only good part of that film.

[@yaqbulyakkerbat4190]

I never understood why the movie was so popular. I ended up loathing it as I had to listen to it over and over again as a retail worker

[@PiraticOctopus]

I worked with kids while it was really popular and same

[@artbytesia]

@@PiraticOctopus You both have my utmost sympathies. It really makes me fear for the future of our kids.

[@joshualowe959]

Elsa, Rapunzel & Quasimodo would have a lot to talk about. They all have been locked up in their homes for most of their lives, Elsa could relate to Quasimodo due to both of them being called "monsters" when the true monsters were their respective villains Hans & Frollo. Rapunzel could relate to Quasimodo due to both of them being abused by their guardians Mother Gothel & Claude Frollo & being taught that the outside world is dark & cruel.

[@error-try-again-later]

Quasimodo and Rapunzel are also both artists! The paintings and the wood figures.

[@joshualowe959]

@@error-try-again-later yes. And both of them fell in love with wanted outlaws. Though Quasimodo didn't get Esmeralda

[@bystanderX]

I like to think that even though Elsa wasn’t the villain, she was the main antagonist.

[@Ouchimoo]

I never, ever understood why Frozen was popular. I thought the movie was shit the very first time I watched it. Nothing like feeling psychotic since as I was apparently the only one in the universe who thought the writing was terrible.

[@rift_right3259]

Literally everyone in this comment section agrees with you 😂

[@artbytesia]

I feel like I'm the only one in my family who thinks that. My parents insist that the movie is popular because little kids like the princesses, colors, reindeer, and snowman. I find that to be a total fallacy, because you know what else has princesses, pretty colors, and cute critters? Movies like Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella, and The Little Mermaid! By that logic, those movies should be overmerchandised to death and beyond themselves! Also when I tried to tell my parents how bad the writing is, they were all, "Oh, kids don't care about the plot, they just care about the princesses and colors and cute stuff." Well, that's kind of the problem, isn't it? That reasoning is exactly why we have garbage like Tom and Jerry: Willy Wonka, Norm of the North, Ice Age Collision Course, and the many sequels to Alpha and Omega and The Swan Princess, because the people behind those had the exact same mentality. "Oh, this movie is for kids and kids don't care about the story, so it doesn't matter how we write it!" You see? It doesn't really work, does it? No! Just because a movie is for kids doesn't mean you can just write it as badly as you want! Heck, even the CG Barbie movies, which are also for young kids and have worse animation than Frozen, have effort put into their writing! And they were direct-to-DVD! Basically, it's a counterintuitive way of thinking: put effort into your writing BECAUSE it's for kids. BECAUSE kids don't know any better. That way, you'll still be giving the kids what they want without talking down to them or insulting their intelligence!

[@lespena3722]

Also another reason why the voice was a bad idea is the legend itself… In scandanavia (and many MANY parts of the world) it is believed that if you hear a voice or hear a love one call you from the woods or anywhere… IGNORE IT!!!! Because whatever is calling you is not good and will lead to you death or worse.

[@_Asvaria]

Yeah, Hans being a villain was so stupid. It would be better if they stick with Elsa being an antagonist and Hans being a positive character who might not end up as Anna’s love interest but maybe a friend (to keep „you can’t be with someone you just meet” idea), keeping Kristoff where he is.

[@charlesman8722]

“Let it go!” *the crops have all died from the cool shock.* “Let it go!” *farm animals have all died as they weren’t prepared for the sudden winter.” “Let it go!” *the people are starving and slowly freezing*

[@freman007]

Elsa and Anna as sisters dealing their issues, without trying to ham-fistedly ram in villains, could have worked. Else as an antagonist, rather than an outright villain, could have been good characterization.

[@Turtle-Melon]

I never liked Hans as a twist villain, there was nothing to hint at him being evil at all upon rewatch. By comparison, Hal aka Titan from Megamind can be sniffed out as creepy and unstable before the reveal

[@lazyknowledge6286]

I just realized: Hans showed more "feminine"-coded traits in staying home and taking care of people and being there as an emotional support (before turning into the "villain"). It was what made me fall in love with him watching the movie in the beginning. He was such a well-rounded guy whereas Christoph loved his Sven and really did not have as many interesting traits when we followed the story. Interesting … and I also never understood the appeal of the movie in itself. I felt rather betrayed with the sudden plot-twist in Hans being the bad guy which I hated. Thanks for putting the flaws of this movie in such concise words!

[@TopazDragonAJ]

The fact that Hans started a trend of awful and predictable twist villains is what makes me despise this movie the most.

[@leftyfizz]

I've hated her my ENTIRE life I know she's traumatized but they wrote her as like a fucking pick me??? Trauma doesn't turn people into pick me girls, she's just obnoxious. The entire time it feels like she's just fishing for attention and compliments. "Euugh I'm too dangerous go away, everything is my fault leave me alone" like stfu. I understand obviously that mental illness can make people think negatively like this upon themselves but from my own damn experience I can say, people don't just act like this. Very often, people with mental illness let these thoughts weigh on them but NEVER say things like this out loud. People with actual depression suffer in silence a LOT of the time and they act totally fine on the outside, and even if they feel like they cause every problem in the lives of their loved ones, they don't like to talk about it because it's like... embarrassing to talk about?? Like idk for everyone of course but I know that this is a ridiculous way of thinking and it's dumb to believe you cause every problem in the lives of your family and friends but mental illness making you think that way anyway isn't something you flaunt. That's why I think she's just an annoying awful character. They did a terrible job writing mental illness in these movies. I'm just complaining based on my own experiences with metal illness, so obviously I can't speak for everyone, but she annoys the SHIT out of me. She feels like a caricature.

[@MJCam1130]

The worst thing Elsa’s parents did is force Elsa into isolation without consulting her in any way. They didn’t stop to ask her “is this working? Is this making you feel safe? Feel loved? Do you think this is the right thing to do?” They basically imprisoned her and they didn’t bother to hear her opinion, because as we see in the movie, the isolation is clearly making Elsa’s powers even more uncontrollable. But do her parents even bother to listen to her?? No! Her father literally says “calm down” when Elsa expresses her concern that her powers are getting stronger. Now THAT is terrible parenting.

[@ilikebeanies3499]

Even knowing all this, I still enjoy Frozen as a movie and watch it over and over. As I keep coming back, I realize that the emotion Elsa puts out pretty much goes away as soon as Anna wakes up from being frozen solid towards the end. Elsa is anxious, secretive, and distant for the whole film. Then does a 180 at the end and is just... Cool with everyone?? Letting people ice skate all over the place and being open and free RIGHT AWAY? Uh, yeah, anyone who has ever tried to come out of a depressive episode knows it's NOT THAT F*CKING QUICK/EASY. Disney really said "Wraaap it up! The end is here, so Elsa has to go to default mode! Nothing but happiness now!" Elsa almost killed her sister multiple times. And Anna SACRIFICED HERSELF for her. Nothing to discuss about that?? No?? Okay. 😂

[@VecnaVecno24000]

I swear Disney's Cut Concepts are SO MUCH better than the actual product.

[@insertnamehere3614]

Elsa was supposed to be the villain of Frozen, but the story of Frozen as sisters growing back together is AMAZING, and had such an impact on society. Elsa in the first movie has a full entire arch, and we can see her grow as a character. The problem with making her a good person and a good character is that the film lacks a villain, which is where Hans fills in, and Hans is a terrible villain who has ZERO build-up till this point, so I agree with him being shoe-horned in there. Elsa from the first movie has a character arch, and learns to be close with Anna again. Elsa from the SECOND movie, however, has that arch completely DEMOLISHED, because basically ALL the characters in that movie are crappy and not well-written. So I would argue that Elsa is a good character, at least in the first movie. And on that note, Frozen WAS successful and a box office phenomenon, so a sequel logically makes sense, but the fact that we wait 7 YEARS and get Frozen II, it would’ve just been better to make Frozen a standalone. Why does everything have to have a sequel?

[@thedarkking7881]

Becuse its easy to make money with a sequel

[@insertnamehere917]

I agree and also we have matching usernames 🫨

[@clarisacalderon9555]

I mean...I get thats what they were trying to do...but it didn't really like Elsa learned to be close to Anna again. she ran from her sister...then when her sister went to go find her she started shutting her out when anna brought up about how there is a eternal winter when elsa felt anna didnt understand how elsa didn't know how to fix it so she shut anna out again ad used a snowman to throw anna out where she didn't even notice she hit her sister in the heart. then she was chained up by the people who tried to kill her where(before they swicthed him to evil) han's had aparently made it so she wasn'y killed on sight. and then when she learned she had hit anna and that anna 'died' off screen the act of true love that saved anna was anna saving elsa? where suddenly elsa realized the answer was love despite the fact they hadn't talked things out at all? it also felt kindof weird because I get what they tried to do with han's at the end...but if he really was just a regular person who wasn't evil who just had a crush on anna and felt it was a good excuse to move out...like elsa's issues with han's was justified that he was evil but if he had just been normal wouldnt that hve still been valid of her to think they were going too fast even if he WASN'T evil? just kindof wish she actually just talked it out with anna properly...like were they going for the 'she thought anna was dead but now won't let the chance to fix things go now that she still has teh opportunity shocked her into it'. honestly what felt odd is christoff and han's felt like they could have been ways to help explore/have the sister's bounce of people that could help them understand the other's perspective with parallels and contrasts..like what even was the point of christoff being there? and why did anna not make a big deal that her memories were erased?

[@Jdudec367]

@@clarisacalderon9555 It did feel like that tbh. The act of true love was them saving each other really. Well yeah because hearing Anna get hurt snaps her back to reality and what to really focus on as she realized her mistake and that she isn't making things better with her sister getting hurt. Yes that would have been valid. She did eventually talk it out with Anna properly more though. Yes that's exactly what they were going for. To help out and to develop too. She didn't remember them...plus why would she care much if it was one thing when she was younger?

[@clarisacalderon9555]

@@Jdudec367 I mean she had been confused and sad about being shut out from elsa for no reason from her perspective. finding out her memory was erased would kindof give her reasons to be upset at her family since they could have still told her and she would understand why her sister had felt alone. she felt endeared by olaf but it just felt odd to me i guess there wasn't more focus on what she had forgotten. that she had known before and been supportive and there for elsa proprerly before and if she had been allowed to remember or at least told about it...she could have still been a support for her sister. and they literally changed her memories. not just the one memory but knowledge about it before hand in other memories. and gives more implications abot her entire family leaving her out about it. maybe adress how the parents just died and had no plan for what would happen if something happened to them. and give her context for why elsa had shut her out in particular that it wasn't for no reason and that it had been a way to protect anna which would give extra understanding for WHY elsa was so afraid about it.

[@miscellaneoussarnian5282]

every day is instantly made better whenever somebody uploads a video criticising Frozen

[@pilloeglade5463]

She ran away, learned her lesson, then ran away again...

[@chaoticcow4357]

This movie INFURIATES me. Writing a story about a character being depressed without actually showing it outside of interactions with others is a REALLY bad decision. We shouldve been shown the level of isolation Elsa put herself into, and showed the effects of depression on the INDIVIDUAL. We were only really shown the effects it has on others (this is parallel to real life situations such as those who run away or commit sui*cide.. but this movie making it a life or death situation prevents you from fully sympathizing with Elsa) Elsa deserved better, we shouldve been shown what the effects of depression on the person who is the primary victim of it.

[@borikidor]

When frozen came out i was super petty about it and refused to akknowledge it because The Snow Queen was one of my favorite fairy tales when i was a kid and i was super pissed that Deisney turned it into commercial driven princess junk.

[@barbarabaker1457]

If it helps, I'm pretty sure they ripped off a different Scandinavian fairy tale and just shoved in those two male characters so they could justify the Snow Queen parts and pretend they "reimagined" it somehow. Can't prove it and don't know which one cuz it wasn't an English and a friend of mine heard it verbally passed down so... But it makes me feel better cuz I don't have to associate this with a snow queen anymore.

[@flyingstapler1241]

Omg it's been 10 years and I finally found someone who feels the same because it was nothing like The Snow Queen. I don't think I would've been as disappointed in Frozen if I never read it. One of my favorite things about the story was that it's about a girl saving a boy, so it bugged me when so many people were praising Frozen for being progressive and breaking tropes by having the girl save another girl. A girl saving her sister with family love kinda feels less groundbreaking than a girl saving the neighboring boy with the platonic love of friendship. I really wished they kept the Gerda/Kai friendship instead of changing the focus to Gerda/Snow Queen and throwing Kai's character to the trash. I don't care about the princess thing, as long as the core characters aren't changed. Also it'll be sick to have a story where the princess saves the prince

[@flyingstapler1241]

@@barbarabaker1457 How does shoving in those 2 male characters justify the Snow Queen parts and show it's reimagination? They don't have any resemblance to the original story. If anything, they made Frozen even less like The Snow Queen.

[@barbarabaker1457]

@@flyingstapler1241 Same! I Loved the Hallmark miniseries version personally.

[@barbarabaker1457]

@@flyingstapler1241 It doesn't. I think they did it to add a love interest which wasn't in the story they ripped off about two princesses to make it Seem like they reimagined The Snow Queen. Incredibly lazy too, if true. Wish I could prove it but I only have my friends word and that one dude I met with a fascination with his Scandinavian heritage recognizing it. I just don't speak the languages necessary to find it myself. I have a comment with the original story on here somewhere. Pretty cool if you imagine the movie that way.

[@kreatywnynick4406]

The fact that Elsa DID control her powers at the beginning of the film makes the decision to hide her insane Like, all they had to do was to make their daughters more careful when they are playing with the magic

[@sunlightangel87]

Yeah there are a few weird plot holes that don't make sense. For starters, Hans' motive and actions literally make no sense. Like, the part that bugs me most is how when he comes out and says "we said our marriage vows" and nobody even questions the fact that he can just tell the people of Arendelle that he married Anna with no witnesses, and somehow his word will make him king. It definitely sounds like they needed a villain and were like, "Hey how about Hans." And I think even the writers knew this because they even kind of make fun of it in the 2nd movie. And the 2nd movie makes even less sense than the first. How did her dad not recognize her mom as the girl who saved him in the woods and how come the mom didn't act like she was of Northuldra at all when the king was telling them the story and making the Northuldra out to be the bad guys? Or tell him that she was the one who saved him when he was telling the story of how he was saved. And then somehow she became a wind spirit? And she literally lived alongside these elements and knew about magic and yet acted like she had no idea what was going on? And the trolls/Kristoff relationship just baffles me. In the beginning he's with all these ice harvesters, and they clearly see him, and he's following after them. And then he's just suddenly alone in the woods, and the trolls are like, "I'm gonna keep you." ??? If he was with the ice harvesters, wouldn't at least ONE of them noticed that he wasn't there and wonder what happened to him? If one of those ice harvesters wasn't actually his dad, and he was an orphan or something, I find it weird that none of these ice harvesters would concern themselves with his wellbeing and try to take him in? Or take him to some kind of authority? But ok we're adult men going to leave a child in the snowy woods near a frozen lake? And the trolls' motives make no sense. Why would Grand Pabbie erase Anna's memories of Elsa's powers? Why would the parents separate them which would just confuse Anna and further frighten Elsa when fear was supposed to be her enemy? Again I think this is something that the writers make fun of themselves for when Anna says, "She could have just told me she had powers and none of this would have happened. She's a stinker." So I think even the writers themselves were aware of how ridiculous some of their plot holes were. I just find it easiest to not question it. There are a LOT of plot holes in this that are just best left unquestioned or else you'll give yourself a headache. As the parent of 5 year old twin daughters who want to BE Elsa, believe me, I well understand how many plot holes there are. Adults will see the problems. Kids will not. But I'm also a writer, so it really bugs me when writers leave all these plot holes and just shrug it off with the "it's for kids, they won't notice" kind of attitude. It's lazy.

[@gAm3r_GuRl984]

The fact Frozen was the first movie I ever watched in my lifetime, and I never saw any of the flaws. I’m older now, and I see the flaws this movie has

[@imma2583]

Frozen two was honestly so bad, it was such an obvious cash grab

[@msSweeTae]

I remember watching Frozen, because I was interested in Elsa as a character. You can imagine my disappointment when I realized that she's more of a side character, even though that's not what was intended. Idk...as an adult I didn't like the first movie except for the siblings-love part, because that was a nice change. Never watched the second one.

[@ximec.r.2643]

It was a nice watch one time. However I couldn't understand the obsession of little girls wanting to see it again and again or begging for every scrap of the merchandise. Or the songs, they are good and catchy but not to put them on loop for days on end. I almost fled from my niece's home and felt a lot of pity for my cousins.

[@sigridbjergbakkemeyer3653]

This is what happends to movies, when release deadlines overrules making a clear story with fleshed out characters. If they had had time to sit down and look at all the puzzlepieces of for the movie, they could have streamlined the story and characters. When you go to writingcourses one of the main fraiches is ‘kill your darlings’. That means even though, you love that song or that scene, if it does not fit in with the story, you are telling, cut it out. Only have stuff that further the story, that you want to tell. Brave had the same issue. It was supposed to be about a dysfunctional mother and daughter relationship, but because of changes in director they desided, they should turn them into bears and make it about turning back to humans as a solution to the relationship between mother and daughter

[@Speculativedude]

I always felt like the song "Let is Go" was not as empowering as many people thought it was. Mostly because of when she sings it and the lines, especially at the end. If she had sang this song at some point in the end of the movie, then it would have been empowering, but that isn't what happens. She sings it when she runs away and hides. There's nothing empowering about that. And the last line of the song, "The cold never bothered me anyway." Was clearly supposed to be Elsa saying that she didn't care about how people think of felt about her, which clearly wasn't true, not only because she ran away and hid, but she even pushed away her own sister, the one person that genuinely wanted to help her and understand.

[@rose516]

I had so many issues with the story. Parents: Saw that Elsa had perfect ability to control her powers, there was an accident, (which was caused by Anna) and they immediately shut off their kid from the world, who is supposed to be future ruler with a lot of human contact, she has to know how to be leader etc, which she can't cut off from the world. Mother is even worse looking at the part 2. She knew magic, she understood magic, she grew up with it. You'd think she should know that magic is about harmony and love.. Trolls - masters of magic, huh? Know that fear will kill Elsa. Let's give her awful trauma. Anna, I'm sorry but I just find her annoying and stubborn. She falls in love in 1 second, then risks her life for her sister, leaves alone. She should have taken some guards with herself, that was just stupid. And how she treats Kristof in 2nd movie is just awful, even tho it was supposed to be funny... Hans, why did he betray Anna? He actually looked like he cared for Anna and if even kiss wouldn't have worked he could have played the part "oh it doesn't work, but I truly love you! Maybe that's now how it works?". Why anyway everybody were just fine with him taking over the throne? I know it's children movie but c'mon. Elsa changes her character way too quickly, never seems to really care about her kingdom and is bland. Ending - why everybody were cheering? Just a second ago they wished death to Elsa, they have no idea what happened and they just want her as their Queen? Everything was rushed, the answer of love just popped out of nowhere.

[@Jdudec367]

Anna didn't cause the accident though. They didn't mean to ever give her trauma though. Nah she is stubborn but not really annoying. She didn't want them to get hurt and it was a pretty personal business, it wasn't really stupid. Cause he seemed trusting, that's why they were fine with it. No she doesn't, she always cared about her kingdom and she was far from bland. Because all was fixed. They didn't all want her to die and they know she fixed the issue now. No it wasn't all rushed, no it was build up as the theme of the movie.

[@CreatorofSecks]

despite all of Frozen 2's issues, I gotta be honest that the characters look really good in it; I don't really know what they changed from the first one, but they look much better.

[@alicekalasouski4744]

Elsa needs therapy

[@MarKreationsStudios]

Im glad enough time has past that other people are willing to criticize Elsa and Frozen. I always had a big problem with them.

[@solacehealer7589]

Let it go is such a sad song, like Hurricane in Hamilton, where you know the character is going to wrong direction and that it’s not going to go well for them, but man, the emotions at the time are so good, even though it’s saying some pretty dark stuff.

[@Kaleidosaur]

anna is the most forgiving and kind person for so readily accepting Elsa after Elsa shut her out for literal years with no explanation. I understand that Elsa was in a bad mental and emotional state, but abusing someone else because of that can never be excused. and yes, neglect is abuse. I was anna growing up. I had a sibling constantly turning me away to the point where I gave up on interacting. It wasn't until she sorted through her trauma independently and put in her own effort that we now have a wonderful relationship.

[@dimanarinull9122]

this movie had LEGENDARY potential to show Elsa as a mistreated character. even with the focus and perspective on Anna. a story where Anna is being a sheltered kid who gets to live a happy life while Elsa is being abused and separated from the rest of the family. it explains why they lock up the castle as they can't hide their firstborn from noble society(bad for international relations), can't simply make her disappear(people should've already known about her at that age), nor can they kill her off, both as parents who are supposed to be loving and from fear of her powers. it'll require minor changes to the interaction between the parents and Elsa at the start(commenting something like "I told you not to play with this thing" referring to her magic) and that the twist villain would NOT be Hans but actually the Rock Trolls. you can still break the bond between Anna and Hans in favor of Kristoff as part of the Troll's plan, have that break drive Hans to not want Anna back even after realizing it was a ploy as he was hurt by the break and Anna would end up with Kristoff because they were both used by the trolls. it still get a similar enough end result, but: 1. have a different and more pivotal villain 2. the twist reveal would be really impactful viewers that thought Elsa was evil or that her parents were just awful for no reason would see the lines drawn to those magical creatures seeking ruin onto the royal family for some slight or another. or as something against the spirits from the second movie. Elsa would see that it wasn't that her parents hated her, but that their fear of the incident was drilled into them by the Trolls who warped her every action into malicious in their eyes. Anna would learn of all the horrible things her sister had gone through, and see through the haze of her happy life from the days before of the incident and the days of "do you wanna build a snowman". Kristoff would learn that the only reason the Trolls saved him(or maybe kidnapped him) was that they needed a human for their plan. 3. it would fit perfectly with the supposed timing of the storyboard changes from the original movie and would require only tiny sections of re-animation and re-recording while creating a much better movie for the cost. 4. it was basically what the fan community has been speculating this entire time because the movie was so badly written. the one downside is that you won't have the Rock Troll merch be as popular as it was, though I don't think it would've been such a big loss anyways. my conspiracy theory was that it was INTENDED to be this way from the start and there was NO rewrite at all, because in modern day we can't have women be evil or flawed, and it always have to be the "straight whyte man" who is either evil, useless, or both.

[@kaibaiarrio1299]

This movie could have even been an examination of how child abuse and neglect can affect how a person sees the world, i mean the books show hans himself being abused and neglected by his family which causes him to want something for himself outside of the abuse As someone who has dealt with those topics, in this movie i noticed there were so many pieces of groundwork for a story like that. A story where no one person is the "bad guy" Having elsa try to run away from her actions but realize she fucked up and actually tries to right her actions, and hans lying about his feelings for anna not to try and hurt her or "steal the throne", but because he just wanted to feel loved and to have the chance at a better life This way, you can still have the "twist" with hans without it being like "haha im evil now" and also show an actual redemption arc for both elsa and hans

[@lulubelle196]

This movie just has too many things going on that nothing seems fleshed out; there's too many fake-out villians

[@joshualowe959]

Elsa accidentally strikes her sister Anna with ice powers, she is locked away all her life to not reveal her powers, she accidentally reveals her ice powers after having a meltdown of Anna wanting to marry Hans, a man Anna just met, Elsa creates a castle to live in herself then later Anna tries to get Elsa to come back to Arendelle but Elsa refuses & she created the giant snowman Marshmallow to kick out Anna & Kristoff, Elsa was blamed for Anna's "death" by Hans, she is torn with guilt & Hans gets ready to kill her but Anna stops Hans & sacrifices herself to protect Elsa. Anna's act of true love unfroze her & Arendelle returns to normal. Hans gets sent back to the Southern Isles to shovel horse manure. The moral of Frozen is like many other Disney movies: true love conquers all.

[@0xenfreeArt]

Videos like this give me peace of mind, because after Frozen ended I was left feeling unsatisfied and I didn't know why because everywhere I looked people praised it so much, but honestly my biggest problem is their need for a black and white perspective, Hans didn't need to be a villain and I hate the way he's treated when his personality switches because he's become a punching bag and shit on (Literally on both) when his goal before not evil and was portrayed evil because it wasn't out of love. And the message of not marrying someone you just met falls apart when Anna and Christoff get together when they also hadn't known each other for that long. This movie felt like a nothing burger, and if you're not satisfied with being spoon-fed surface level stuff it leaves you feeling like something's missing.

[@323starlight]

3 minutes in and I just realized something. The writer of Snow Queen, the story Frozen is loosely based off of is names Hans. And the badly written Twist Villain of Frozen….. is named Hans….

[@henrythef1guy768]

If more time had been given to Elsa’s development in Frozen, then she would still be a fan favourite