All My Favorite Games Are Pay To Win | Asmongold Reacts

by @ForceGamingYT • All My Favorite Games ...
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Channel Editors: CatDany & Daily Dose of Asmongold
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[@ManifestTheMusic]

Playing with yourself is free

[@VelvetAura]

Must supply yourself with liquids tho

[@DrakyHRT]

It's not.

[@wilczur335]

Don't worry they're working on it lmao

[@michalhrbek3541]

Graphic sux..:(

[@johnlinks]

Sad 😿

[@xelloskaczor5051]

How to stop this vicious cycle: 1. Dont play the games that do this 2. Thats it

[@Eaon69]

blah blah blah. sit down, pay, and play the game.

[@oldred7438]

If those kids could read, they'd be VERY upset right now....

[@paulw5039]

Exactly. There are a multitude of good games out there that aren't excessively monetized. Play those instead. Stop rewarding the bad guys.

[@CrawshawCompositions]

Yep! Just impossible to get (almost) everyone to agree to not buy the damn game 😆

[@Hajimeme7]

​@@Eaon69not if you have great tastes

[@1111Tactical]

I have completely given up on MMO and PVP gaming. I play single player and co-op, That's it. No cheaters, No sweaty people, No SBMM, And it's much easier to find games that aren't pay to win It's relaxing and fun, which I think we all forgot is exactly what gaming was for

[@kokocaptainqc]

i play mmos but totally solo because i like the lenght of mmos and whenever i get asked for a dungeon i replay ''no thanks i prefer having fun'' which always puzzles them

[@deoxysandmew2162]

Finally! Someone who agrees! I remember when I've used to play smash ultimate and become more and more competetive, I've noticed I have been turning toxic more and more as well as a result. And all around, I was not enjoying playing it. I was having fun less and less until I forgot why I was playing games in the first place. So, I gave myself a question to answer: "Why am I playing videogames in the first place?!" The answer was simple. "To have fun." and "To relax and enjoy myself." Not sweat my ass off for something no one cares about nor lifes are at stake. That is exactly why I dont play PVP anymore of ANY KIND, and just enjoy PVE casually and single player games by myself. The bad toxic competetive crowds are also bad to hang around with. You turn into one of them, which I've learned from experience.

[@DiariX69]

Modern games are mostly either full competitive/tryhard/challenging or very cinematographic. Meaning it willl be full online, multiplayers with sweaty tryhards and toxicity or just boring AF and of course both full of micro transaction... and that's why indies or older games are better, because you dont have to deal with this bs.

[@Arkanna96]

@@kokocaptainqc same here, I love MMOs but play them solo because I don't have the time/energy to keep up with gear requirements for dungeons/raids. I loved back in the day in WoW just raiding a couple times a week and doing whatever else the rest of the time.

[@andreimitran1752]

Same, I play only co-op pve games, single players and that's pretty much it.

[@felixh1600]

One of the problem that has not been mentionned too in regards with suscription. Is yes, its a barrier to entry but the games now try to double and triple dip by charging you for the sub, and then having a cash shop inside the game so that you can pay more on top of your sub.

[@michelsealy3782]

dont forget the games that have what you mentioned plus also a season pass you gotta pay extra for on top of what you are pointing out

[@jacksontcrazy9287]

I play video games to forget about money and...basically everything. With everything being pay to win, it's a constant reminder that maybe just maybe, I should be working instead of playing the game.

[@ni9274]

99% of singleplayer games have no microtransactions, and there is no pay to win in singleplayer games. You can work and play video games, that's what most people do

[@ionseven]

Cosmetics are the problem too. Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop, which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.

[@adventurekobold]

You're spot on with this dude.

[@MetalCharlo]

Just don't buy any micro transac- fuck that armor skin looks good maybe I should it's $2

[@TheEgrigor]

​@@ionsevenhelldiver's 2 is already being ruined, but not by the devs 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@TheEfling]

So Asmon really think that if a company finds a way to make the product cheaper to produce. They are going to lower the price for the consumer instead of making a bigger profit. Sure that will happen..

[@greenfroggood2392]

Good point

[@jacob-2271]

isn't that the premise of free to play games? that they make more money off of the game costing less because people spend money on purchases within the game? the prices tied to skins and digital items in a free to play game are only dictated by what people are willing to pay for them

[@siliconhawk9293]

Better tech does mean that the bar is lower. Like with unreal it's pretty easy to make a game look good any good indie dev could couple that with fantastic gameplay and you have a good game. Same logic applies here. It's arguably if that will happen tho

[@azucarblanca9047]

​@@jacob-2271no.

[@filidhdeklend893]

I don't think him making that comment was about AAA companies. It was more a reflection of hobbyist developers being able to break into the scene. Sort of like how the original online games like Neverwinter Nights and Islands of Kesmai(prices based on baud rate per hour) gave rise to free MUDs

[@simplysolus8916]

MMOs are kind of doomed nowadays due to the players. Players want a story they don't read. They want lore that other people tell them about. If there is customization they want someone else to tell them how to build their character. They don't want to explore the world. They want quests they don't have to do. They want to be among the strongest without competing with others. They want to be paid to enjoy theirselves. They want to play a game with a bunch of other people that they never have to interact with. No longer do players want what classic MMOs offered. Vast worlds. Risks. PVP. Competition. Customization of one's own character, house, and world. ...giving a streamer content that they can watch and take part in is more of today's player's desire... while the minority wants to actually play a good game, and explore it theirselves while competing with others.

[@memenazi7078]

The people paying for the dumb shit are enabling the devs too, it’s a downward spiral.

[@bli4n5427]

Zoom zoom zoomers😂

[@Yojack872]

People think about Us Vs Them when Time is the True Enemy of Us All.

[@warrabbit123]

Bro tell us you have the attention of a gold fish lol

[@triarii217]

Completely wrong

[@johnnyfatsacks5209]

"Why are all my favorite games pay-to-win??" Same people: "I'll swipe my card until I hit a wall."

[@SSGoatanks]

All video games will eventually become pay-to-win. It's too lucrative and game developers are getting greedy 🤑

[@notioncreanga]

sounds like going to vegas and playing slots

[@Riomasa]

If you’re trying to quote him. That’s not what he said.

[@saphojuiced6243]

I think you don't get to complain about the state of democracy and policies if you don't bother voting. Similarly, I think you don't get to complain about capitalism and commercial greed or whatnot when you're not willing to vote with your wallet or your time. Guy in the video is quite right in his observations, overall. And, at the same time, he's wrong. Because he's unwilling to stop playing and cutting off what he disapproves of. In practice, he's indifferent so long as it's not in his face. Just like abstaining from voting. Blank votes are disapproval. Abstaining is indifference. De facto and de jure, it is, regardless of your reasons for it.

[@JayUchiha17]

I've realised I just don't enjoy multiplayer games anymore the developers and companies are too greedy. The games exciting sometimes but I just don't have fun. I've watched all my friends fizzle out

[@CookiePieMonster]

Sounds like someone who played Shinobi Striker and was upset that it's not a bad game, but ruined by greed. Or maybe it's the username.

[@scarletsletter4466]

I think also a lot of the reason we’ve fizzled out on those games is the complexity. Once you have a job & money to spend you don’t want to spend all yr free time & money on that

[@TheGrzB]

I think it's true that's why You need strong single player parts if You want to succeed. Main story in FFIVX and iron man in OSRS are good examples.

[@horrorking1000]

Yeah I mostly play older RPGs from PS3 and 360 era an so in

[@morsmagne]

I agree - Playing MTG Arena felt like an abusive relationship - especially when they introduced 'Blackagorn' and 'Chinese Gandalf'. They expected me to pay lots of money for an IP they had no respect for themselves.

[@7rob27]

You know what’s really funny and sad? All my favorite games are from the past.

[@MrWilliGaming]

well yeah for you to like a game today you must have been able to play it sometime before today.

[@7rob27]

@@MrWilliGaming Well, yeah, when I say from the past, I don’t mean yesterday or a year or a few years back.

[@rlereza2701]

​@@7rob27All my favorite games are from the future. And when I say future, I don't mean tomorrow or a year or a few years from now.

[@simplysolus8916]

Its makes sense, sadly. What game was better than Ultima Online or World of Warcraft? Open world, meaningful player interaction, customization, housing, meaningful guilds, useful professions, etc... Developers have failed to catch up with the classic games. Some others have exceled in specific areas, but as a whole, the classics are the best because developers of new games aren't even trying to make anything as good as the classics.

[@DirtRabbit]

I think this is as much to do with the games today as it does with growing older, maturing, losing interest in things that once gave us pleasure (not just games) and the fondness for our childhood and the simple life we got to live. I don’t do multiplayer or fps games anymore, and they were always my favorite. But I still enjoy tons of single player games.

[@JustGRP]

I like warframe style free to play. You don't need real money ever, you can sell items and make platinum. Also there's so much content that having to wait to use a different gun is good so you can level up other stuff.

[@itchiegames]

other games are better if you arent broke

[@oldnoobgamer90]

Guild Wars 2 is free to play for the entire base game. To unlock the full game, no subscription is needed. Just buy the expansions which are always on sale. It's horizontal progression so there's no reason to spend real money for power. Every cosmetics in the store can be bought with in game gold earned by playing the game. I think GW2 is very fair if not the best model for players.

[@kokocaptainqc]

LOTRO has base game free +5 expasions free....that means a solid 350 hours...theres no better free model

[@kbutta01]

I really feel like guild wars 2 has a great monetization model.

[@Shiirow]

@@kbutta01 no it doesnt, its a cash shop with an optional game attached. which is why they need no sub and can only offer the base game. they make money hand over fist from the whales to support that idea. I see more videos talking about whatever new virtual tat you can get from their lootboxes than their expansions or content.

[@gille2k]

if a game is p2w its not a game its a waste of time

[@ericv738]

It was always a waste of time unfortunately. Not like the game was teaching you differential calculus.

[@CookedPotatoes47]

@@ericv738 something being a waste of time or not is subjective.

[@Xenphos]

​@@ericv738 Watching this video is just as much of a waste of time by that logic.

[@desperate_desperado]

It is

[@eldenarmortem975]

@@ericv738 Having fun is not waste of time, imo having fun is the point of life, everything else are just necessities that enable having fun. Everybody is different and some people enjoy "work grinding" and that is fine. Ofcourse you should take care of responsibilities 1st, 'cause if you fail at that, then consequences probably won t be fun.

[@scarletsletter4466]

The reason the inflation estimate sounds too low is because prices in food & housing are what’s soared & they’re not included in the calculation he’s using. For example, fast food & grocery prices in the last 20 years have doubled or tripled on many products. A pack of butter is $6

[@ChickenSoupMusic]

Eggs more than doubled in price since 2019. Inflation calculations are completely skewed to make the government look better. They changed the math after the 70s inflation.

[@kokocaptainqc]

in my canadian town whenever theres a sale on butter, no matter how much it can be 25 cent less, people go crazy and call each other to warn the most people then 10 minutes into the sale its all gone...if you seen crazy videos about the boxing day sometimes well its the exact same and I DONT GET IT and think theyre all crazy...nobody that i asked could give me an answer either

[@ferdgerbeler8494]

But do keep in mind, those inflation calculators use the 'official numbers' for inflation that excludes virtually everything you need to purchase to live, food, housing, fuel, etc. So it's actually more like double or more the difference they claim.

[@thefalsehero]

This guy gets it.

[@Shiirow]

inflation is simply the devaluing of currency.

[@seussiii]

Subscription is 100% still sustainable. Plenty of people can afford $15-$20 per month plus box price. The problem is that big developers now want to reach the global market where a lot of people maybe can't afford subs. I don't think that's worth making the game worse with a shop / cosmetics because it's free. The reality is that people will justify the price if the value is there. Make great games. There is a huge demographic of gamers that have PLENTY of disposable income and waste it on stupid things like doordash, starbucks, name brand clothes, and electronics. 50 cents a day for hundreds of hours of entertainment per month is a steal.

[@archenemy9068]

Global market combined is still bigger than US

[@luisfernandooliveira7984]

I think people are just dumb thinking about money, most of my friends won't play wow/ffXIV because of the subscription are too much, but are fine to paying for more than that on lol every month in battlepasses and skins. I just don't understand

well to be fair in WoW you need to Buy the Game, Buy the new Expansion, Pay a monthly Subscription, but than it also has a Battlepass, a way to buy ingame currency and a shop for Cosmetics, Mounts etc so its probably the worst example you could have chosen, but i get what your saying lol

[@actually5004]

You don't have friends that like what you do, but at least they're polite about it.

[@gerryw173ify]

Yeah I always think it's weird how someone can drop hundreds on a F2P game but can't bother dropping some money on a paid game. In the end people just value what they like. Battlepasses are at least optional and usually just for skins while a sub completely gates you from playing the game.

[@bullettime1116]

Because it's a choice with the f2p game while wow and ff14 are subscriptions and you have to pay upfront to even play them

[@eleongo]

Bcoz you literally cant play without continuously paying for subscription. They would rather play f2p games and then spend money after some time knowing they enjoy the games, than to outright paying first without knowing whether they enjoy playing or not.

[@semiramisubw4864]

Sadly alot of the younger generation doesnt really care about paying in games. Their first contact to games over the last 10.15 years were quite the same to some degree. They dont know anything else than such stuff. Companys will go on and on with it until people stop giving them money at all.

[@sprmn1983]

Vote with your wallet 😂

[@mkv2718]

why is that sad? if it makes ‘em happy, who cares? you don’t need to play those games, and you don’t need any kind of brand loyalty. play games that you think are fun. give zero sh!ts about the rest. makes life a lot nicer when you aren’t worried about getting mad at your fun. there are thousands of games out there to play. f*ck so called “AAA” crap. and mmos…

[@Mantosasto]

@@mkv2718 I agree with your second paragraph, but it is still kinda sad knowing things could be better and younger people just can't see it because they simply don't know. Imagine having two options, a) getting punched in the gut and b) playing a sport you like. And you see people just going to option A because that's the new standard and all they know. Sure go pick A and if you're happy being punched why should people picking option B care. Still it's a little sad.

[@araamahasla555]

@@mkv2718 I care. Because *I* get no games anymore as every new game is designed for braindead consooomers.

[@kokocaptainqc]

@@araamahasla555 and we can replay the classics only so much before we burn out

[@GameModJr]

someone on the internet said it best: Once i had to find a store to buy a game. nowadays, I buy a game to find a store.

[@MichaelPohoreski]

* *2003:* _I used to go into a store to find a game,_ * *2023:* _Now I go into a game to find a store._

[@bizzzzzzle]

I really don’t get the excuse of developing countries for the “free to play” P2W model, because it ends up coating more than a sub long term…

[@michelsealy3782]

they could just adjust the monthly sub fee in different countires based on there average income could they not??

[@GoldtisticYT]

@@michelsealy3782 how do you cover a case where someone "moves" to a different country to buy a year of subscription at half price

[@Jazzy--]

Imagine a series that you pay for to watch once, its filled with filler episodes and you have to pay 5$ to skip each filler episode. (They're so boring you'll want to do it). That's what timesavers in games feel like.

[@standardgoat9831]

Yup, paying money so you don't have to play the game you just bought :S This shit is insane

[@doomspud6302]

That was my first reaction the first time I saw premium "time savers" in a game. Like, why the heck would I pay MORE money to play LESS game? I don't spend more money to get less toppings on my burger, less features in my car, or less clothing in my closet. You apply this kind of pricing to any other industry, and its complete nonsense. So why is it apparently acceptable in video games? This is the developers literally telling you that their game is worthless. They are showing you that there is more value in not playing it, than there is in playing it. And at that point, why not just pay nothing, and not play it at all? That's maximum value for minimum cost.

[@ionseven]

Cosmetics are the problem too. They normalize monetizing and seem "innocent." Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop (usually price gouged and far better quality than what's in the game), which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.

[@motan7864]

@@doomspud6302 they wouldn't do it if nobody bought that kinda stuff, blame it on comsumers. Why do people get scammed ?

[@ZeallustImmortal]

Pretty good analogy tbh

[@theduck2970]

This is why my personal favorite games are all singleplayer and have no pay to win crap. Case in point; Baldur's Gate 3. Even the Digital Deluxe stuff are merely cosmetic. Everything else is in-game already.

[@goktugonvermez8140]

Well… my favors are Wow, Baldur’s Gate 3 and GOT( Ghost of Tsushima)

[@sprmn1983]

I had the same love with The Witcher 3. +700 hours in that game 😊 for only 20 euro ❤

[@kokocaptainqc]

whenever i played witcher 3 i literally felt like i was playing the peak of all time gaming and knew in that moment that it would only be downhill from there

[@christopherdsuza7531]

None of the games that have been memorable to me in recent years have been multiplayer and have all been single player oddly enough. Things like god of war, the new resident evil remakes, the 1st last of us, baldurs gate, the witcher 3, seikiro, disco elysium, tales of Arise (I just like tales games in general, the last of a dying breed of good jrpg), and nier...were all single player experiences and were simply exquisite some of which even brought me to my knees crying (ie disco Elysium) - I feel these are some of the most talked about games as well of their eras...not the paid to win ones or the multiplayer ones. I don't get that type of emotion from multiplayer to be honest or rather its really rare (ex. some exceptions of course being honkai 3rd impact [the music in that game and some of the cinematics are chefs kiss] but the game play is kinda dog and dated, or ff14). But for the most part you don't see the same level of detail, polish and craftsmanship especially towards a great emotionally driven rollercoaster of a story. Single player seem more complete, focused on being inclusive in delivering a great experience for all that want play no matter their social status, and with skill being the only accurate measure to differentiate the good from the bad player as it should be. The online games now days while great in theory are too ripe for abuse and have been bastardized beyond recognition at this point. Too many unscrupulous actors and corporate greed has all but ensured their demise. I've played my far share of p2w games over the years and they all end the same. None of my favorite games are paid to win because I don't pay and I don't have fun not being competitive unless I continue to funnel money. Not my idea of good game design to be honest due to the continued investment of time and money. I prefer skill being the measure as it gives me something to work towards (with skill expression being one of the few measures that help sustain games and create communities around them like with many of the online globally competitive games like league of legends, etc) and be better at rather then p2w games which are only fun for a bit until you advance further and the difference between spenders become so ginormous that it is deemed impossible to compete. And at that point, the only thing you can do is join the alliance of a whale and depend on him for rewards and to pull you through events, in which case there is always a bigger and better whale once servers inevitably merge due to an ever dwindling playerbase. Its almost like you become a 3rd class citizen and are only there to contribute to the whales fun as you get farmed by them, regardless of their actual skill or knowledge of said game. But ya, for p2w you can have fun but me they are hardly really memorable and it is like a worn out gum that quickly loses its flavour as opposed the sustained flavor I get out of other games that put in the effort and prioritize customer satisfaction/value.

[@callum6224]

@@christopherdsuza7531 Yep, i dont understand how anyone can say that games aren't good anymore, or that they're all pay to win, when games have just been getting better and better imo. disco elysium is also one of my favorite games of all time, and sekiro. have you played outer wilds? along with disco elysium and sekiro, outer wilds is also one of my favorite games, if not my favorite game of all time, you gotta play it if you havent..

[@junechevalier]

That’s why I prefer going the co-op, host-your-own-server direction (like v rising, valheim) because it’s not as expensive to maintain for them but you can still play with friends

[@Sodium779]

Sneaky editor changing the game behind Force to Honkai Impact 😂

[@erikhendrickson59]

And it all started with EverQuest! You see, Classic EQ was FIERCELY competitive, because the game had ZERO isntances. The entire game was open world, including Dungeons & Raids. Sony introduced the *_Legends Servers_* where, for triple the monthly sub-fee, your guild would be guaranteed a weekly raid slot, alongside things like higher rare drop & spawn rates in dungeons. Those players could gear up in a FRACTION of the time and then transfer back to their original server. And this included PVP servers, where gear was EVERYTHING.

[@Basuko_Smoker]

Rip EverQuest and RIP PlanetSide 2

[@Blakkrazor69]

This is why I'm so thankful for games like Valheim for co-op play with friends for no additional costs. V-Rising also put out a really decent pve-pvp game with some solid mechanics and reasonable size. There needs to be more games along these models. Open co-op play with possible pvp and no additional fees after purchasing the game.

[@greenfroggood2392]

Sure but those are not mmos

[@Panteni87]

​@@greenfroggood2392the title is "all my favourite games are p2w", not "all my favourite MMOs are p2w"

[@Walnutsofdoom]

​@@greenfroggood2392 the video isn't about mmos bud

[@greenfroggood2392]

@@Panteni87 The video is about mmos, who cares about the title... watch the video.

[@greenfroggood2392]

@@Walnutsofdoom watch the video before commenting.

[@FAILG0AT]

Eve online is technically pay to win, but because player death costs what gear you bring out into the world and half of it can be harvested by the players who kill you it tends not to work out like that. Additionally the game knowledge cap is so vast and the best ship being friendship its hard to fear some in game noob who grinds irl jobs.

[@JB-ls5pq]

There is however a hybrid model. Similar to what asmon described You got the base game and to continue after a while, you need to purchase an expantion, season pass or subscription ecc. Every expantion the base gets a mini quest that gives one a taste of new stuff. Like a slightly longer quest/mini dungeon and the "we have that armor set at home" And as long as you are in the same party as the expantion/seasonpass/supscription holder. You can play the expantions with them. Payday 2 had a similar way of doing things. Only the lobby host had to have the dlc for you to play a new level. Almost Every dlc you got the "boring version of the new guns. Basically, such system gets new guys in, gets them to stay for longer, and incentevises cooperation , or allows a group of frends to play together, and eventually, individually purchase the expantions to prevent logistocal nightmares. Ofc payday locked some things behind dlc. Certain very specialised weapons and builds but the base game has all the builds you will need, dlc adds variety

[@erogami6459]

hi3 catching stray in the thumbnail lmao.

[@erodnelps4965]

nah deserved

[@Nichole9201]

As it should. Its a gacha game. It's a game that targets vulnerable losers with no life using generic waifu characters. A friend told me powercreep has never been alive since they released 2 of the most broken characters.

[@jotarora9310]

Prolly my fav gacha and hoyo game

[@tuphamhong7496]

​@@Nichole9201 which one

[@tuphamhong7496]

​@@Nichole9201better than a sweaty mmo player

[@gecgoodpasi1654]

Honestly i dont buy into the bullshit that server cost for MMO is too expensive WoW and other mmos got big and successful without any P2W with a smaller playerbase somehow carrying the production + server cost but now suddenly with more people into gaming and higher general player numbers the cost is "too high" the reality is most of these companies are bloated and overhired and also pay out ridiculous sums to exec positions while providing a experience that is of lower quality then years ago.

[@Xenphos]

Major companies like KZbin have also stated that server cost is a major money sink and takes the most of the money. Either all the companies are in on it OR servers cost a lot.

[@raevenent751]

The thing is WoW and XIV are very well established to their respective franchies to this day, being a new MMO that is buy to play + sub means you'd have to compete against those two behemoths in the genre, more so when one of them is getting a major expansion in less than 3 months. It is enough to make anyone look at both and say "Hell no"

[@MrWilliGaming]

well, times have changed. even an old horse like wow with its simple graphics has a cool 300 people working on it these days. also blizzard is a public company so profits must increase whether or not they actually release a good game.

[@answering248]

Estimates range from $120,000 - $150,000 per day to keep a WOW server up and running. So a bit under $5,000,000 a month or so is the common inference. This was posted in January, 2014. Server expenses are high af that’s why many online services games right now are such a risky investment because you need a sizeable player base buying micro transactions and dlcs to keep it afloat then once that’s covered they can get into profits.

[@mekal177]

​@@answering248soooooo completey inflated just like op said There are/were private servers that hosted much much more than official wow Bandwidth is CHEAP and renting a server or hell building your own isn't expensive at all

[@trippy4150]

Yes OSRS you can buy bonds and sell them for gold sure but i still think its the best of all of them. You cant really buy bonds to get like full torva or something youd have to spend so much to do that. Buying a bond is really good for the start to help you have the money to get the requirements for quest and skills faster but once you get your account leveled enough to make your own money you will never need to buy a bond again and you will prolly be able to make enough gold to never spend real money on runescape again for membership. I usually hate p2w but OSRS bonds I'm okay with.

[@GhostLyricist]

If you know a game is pay to win and you plan on playing it until you hit the ceiling as a non-paying player, they've already won. This guy is a sucker for admitting grinding a game he knew was p2w from the start.

[@RBFR01]

A- Any games that are pay to win don't buy them. B- If a game has microtransactions or subscriptions in them don't buy them. Simple.

[@mekal177]

Bring back subscription mmos and remove all the mtx garbage

[@Seydaschu]

A big problem is, what if you buy a game, and one of those things is added AFTER you bought it?

[@karlongkar]

how tf are they going to feed developer then? with air?

[@araamahasla555]

C - You get to play one new game every 5-6 years now...

[@SoulTransient]

People are too willing to be tempted

[@UmbralScythe]

idk why people say GW2 isnt p2w 😂, its pay for conviniece HARD, bank slots, bag slots cost 5 dollars and are CHARACTER BOUND, material storage,unlimited extractors and gathering tools (tools are 35e) You cant really get the best armors with money that is true you will still have to grind alot BUT if you buy gold it speeds up your progress ALOT since you can just buy most materials and craft. You can buy gems with in game currency yes but its veeery expensive. Im saying this and GW2 is my main game for a while now so its not like i hate it or something, i love it but dont know why people say it isnt p2w or p4c. Its hard without this conviniences since you get alot of items and materials, and everything get filled really fast so its a necessity to buy at some point of the game.

[@m.poppins4843]

Because its not P2W. Nothing in what you said is P2W because the game isnt P2W no matter how hard you are trying to twist reality.

[@kokocaptainqc]

@@m.poppins4843 that means you have no clue what P2W means

[@UmbralScythe]

@@m.poppins4843 i get it that you like the game, so do i, but its p2w and that is just a fact it is not an opinion its p2w, if you can pay real money and have better and MUCH easier time than someone who did not pay anything except for expansions, its p2w and im sorry to burst your bubble :)

[@v-ia]

@@UmbralScythe "it's not an opinion" after talking about p2w, which is a concept that has changed its meaning over the past decades and has never had a set definition. bravo

[@fakemanky6838]

@@v-iai can buy crystals and change them to gold + pay for convenience = p2w

[@qwer4790]

force forgot to mention Tarisland, a Tencent's WoW/Lost ark hybrid. The game is in the stage of p2w that you can not do normal attack during skill cooldown unless you pay subscription

[@Shiirow]

they use the korean model where you pay hourly up front with an extra surcharge every time you log in.

[@kokocaptainqc]

im seeing a future where you need to pay to generate the energy to launch the game

[@pj9694]

the optional sub is the only model that makes sense, and that optional sub has to find the fine line between being worth it and not worth it. because if it's an auto 100% xp boost or whatever then it doesn't seem optional anymore.

[@TheTatekei]

i legit wanted a league mmo that was a standard mmo with a league coat of paint. But i respect that the devs dont. im excited to see what they do.

[@Zetherior]

Casuals want an easy game so they can have a chance. Sweats want an easy game so they can dunk on casuals. Sweats dunk on and gatekeep casuals. Casuals die out. Game gets sweaty. Dunking gets harder as the only remaining players are more and more sweaty. Sweats get more sweaty. Game gets more sweaty. Lesser sweats start getting dunked on by turbo sweats. Lesser sweats die out. Only turbo sweats are left in a constant dunking/gatekeeping stalemate because there's no casual or lesser players left to dunk on. Turbo sweats die out. Game dies. This is just how life works btw.. Sharks, Spiders, Lions, Humans.. they're all just sweats preying on casuals. Gaming just hasn't unlocked the natural reproduction bonus of casual players like the real world has. Which kinda makes sense when you think about it... Go touch some grass.

[@CookiePieMonster]

That's only the pvp aspect though. If you put pvp in it's own thing while having the rest of the game as an MMO it'll usually be fine. The casuals avoid the sweaty, but can still enjoy the game. All they have to do is keep the sweaty players in their lane where they'll thrive being sweaty. Keep casuals away from sweaty players because sweat is toxic to casuals.

[@Felip.c]

This is why co-op is king (Any horde game, DCS, tactical shooters PVE etc...) and to some extent racing games, all in all if you don't sweat yourself against the AI and try to have a good time within reasonable goals.

[@janitorizamped]

You've spent way too much time rationalizing why it's someone else's fault that you're bad at every game you play.

[@ionseven]

It's everyone. You just bought DD2 and excused its MTXs I'll bet. It's the NORMALIZATION of monetizing due to accepting games with any MTXs, subscriptions, and other schemes whatsoever. Of course casuals are going to think monetizing is normal.

[@Sir_Bratze]

so basically you are bad at games and u choose to play competetive games even tho you know that you are bad and dont wanna change anything about that.. hmm hmm understandable have a nice day. 95% of the gaming market is for casuals but YOU chose to play the other 5% which are competetive sweaty games. excellent! chose a game that is skillbased and rewards training ----> doesnt put the time in -----> complains

[@GotNoKarma]

I have been playing older games. I grew up on MMOs and missed out on some time capsule games. Downloading the early 2000s games that paved the way are really fun. Some didn't age well graphic or control wise, but I am enjoying the entire experience and story on my time.

[@bizzzzzzle]

Nah, we don’t need to wait for AI, because in the glory days of MMOs we didn’t have AI. What you need are people willing to pay the subscription model, that’s how you get rid of P2W.

[@lionart5230]

Which is, basically, make game good enough for people to want to play it.

[@filidhdeklend893]

"Just stop being poor" is very "luxury brand customer" energy. And we all know luxury brands aren't made for rich people.

[@lionart5230]

If something is just a matter of price, there is no satisfaction from achievement itself. If game is P2W, has bot problems, easily available currency etc. it immediately removes any interest I could have it in first place.

[@s3rit661]

We had Overwatch in 2016, upfront cost (buying the game) and the only thing that you could spend money on was skins. I miss it.

[@SarmonOflynn]

The fact that he implied wow has the worst pay to win mechanics of them all just really goes to show the depths of his WoW derangement syndrome. The game cant be both pay to win, be impossibly difficult to win at, AND have a subscription. He really needs to get the divorce finalised and move on with his life.

[@rustyking23able]

if you plan on playing eso competitively you have to have eso plus, it doubles your bank and inventory capacity, also unlocks the dungeons you haven't paid for via expansions and unlocks a bag that lets you hold unlimited amount of materials.

[@Chochowl]

Just go play solo games, pay to play, even better

[@ikiwheese]

You guys said exactly why I don't play P2W games. Why would I pay to be the best in the game and clear everything easily? What's the point of playing the game....? If it's really easy and I can just pay my way to a win why would I want to play it? lol Makes zero sense to me why people do this. Part of the fun is the grind to becoming the strong character you are. That's what MMOs are. Progressing your character from a peon to a champion. If you go from peon to champion instantly you take away the best part of the MMO.

[@lightlight44]

You are a fxxking genius.

[@mr.vindicator4697]

You really can't understand why someone who plays video games with the "being the best" goal in mind pays to be there? Keep in mind, having the most powerful character in a video game literally translates to nothing outside of the video game. Inside the video game however, you are the big dawg that nobody can stand up to. That's a good feeling period. The person this goal attracts has a very difficult time differentiating personal progress with social progress. To this person, you'd be doing yourself a disservice not taking every advantage. Everybody plays games for different reasons. You may sit down to play an MMO to build your character's power through work and skill. Somebody else may sit down to grief other players. This person sits down to stroke their ego.

[@lightlight44]

If someone becomes a big dawg that nobody can stand up to. and then a big dawg that nobody can stand up to... I've seen this over and over again in KR games like NC soft's Lineage, Nexon's Maple Stroy, and etc mmorpgs. It is simply a business strategy that capitalizes on human psychology. They force us to compare and compete with each other, and that's how games make money. This method is not only used by Korean game companies, but also by KPOP IDOL entertainment companies. In order to go to a fan signing, the top N people in terms of album purchases are selected. Of course, you only need one album to listen to the music, but you are forced to buy multiple albums. It is said that 800 tons of albums are thrown away every year because they are useless.

[@ikiwheese]

@@mr.vindicator4697 yeah and it’s stupid. lol that’s my point. You didn’t have to write a novel. Paying to be the best is dumb. It defeats the point of gaming. Especially in mmos. MMOs are about the adventure.

[@mr.vindicator4697]

@@ikiwheese I Guess you didn't understand what I was saying then. It's not dumb to them. It's dumb to not take the advantage. These people have little grasp on reality. I agree with you from a personal perspective. It's just not about me or you. It's about making money.

[@Vexy93]

One of my favourite game of all time is Mabinogi and it's where I draw the line for pay to win, despite having everything that would make you think it's the worst. > The cash shop is Gacha System based > The gear you get from the Gacha is super cool and powerful, but not better than what you can craft in the game yourself > The inventory is very limited and you can pay to increase the slots, but you can get countless ammount of pets (they have inventory slots) and bags for free by doing events > Some summoned pets deal damage/heal when summoned, and this is so powerful that a skilled player with no lag can solo even the hardest content. But again, you can get these from events, and they are account based, so even if you make a new character, you are going to keep them > You can sell cash shop items to players and use that money to buy the best gear crafted from other players, so in a certain way, you can pay to buy the best gear of the game. But you can also easily earn that money on your own in the game or just become a crafter yourself > Most of the free costumes are ugly compared to the super cool/cute premium items from the cash shop, but you can buy them from other players So essentially, just play the game to get what others would get by paying instead of playing

[@vengefuldevil5195]

I think subscriptions are fine if the base game comes with a few months free. This allows the entry to be like a cheaper normal game, $30 or so. Then the sub fee after people see if they want to invest more. 60-90 days of playtime is more than enough to decide that for most people.

[@Zohancult]

Complete opposite for me. I usually do not enjoy games that have any of that loot crate/gacha whatever p2w mechanics.

[@CookiePieMonster]

Most people with logical sense don't play those games either. Except me, as trash as Shinobi Striker is with hackers, sweaty gamers out that wazoo, and blatant p2w for better jutsus, I still play it and I hate myself for doing so, but damn man the game's fun when it's not raw dogging you with no spit or nothin. I just wish game companies that have actually fun games didn't try their damnedest to ruin it for money.

[@knes167]

@@CookiePieMonster Havent opened up the game in years. I think I played with one of the boys when Healer 6 paths Naruto(S) dropped. Sad that game didnt hold big baller status

[@Luchianiss]

Its a tough time out there for determining what to best spend those dollars on.

[@John_1-1_in_Japanese]

6:40 Yeah, a subscription is comparatively reasonable because the advantages are limited compared to a premium currency & ingame shop that enables whaling for example. It's still P2W in a strict sense, but so is DLC in general if you can get some crazy equipment from the DLC content that trivializes the rest of the game (i.e. Bethesda games, though that's singleplayer so who cares). All players that pay the entry fee get an equal advantage though so I don't think it's so bad.

[@policis]

1. Make good mmo 2. Make it just supscription based. It will sustain itself, if the game is good.

[@TheCanuckCanadain]

I can't image that as all my fav games, are single player games from 2015 to 2001

[@Boss_Fight_Wiki_muki_twitch]

So glad never having gotten into MMOs, never saw the value proposition of paying $20/mo for a game 20 years ago. F2P games are worse, they're nefarious, they're all virtual-item purchase-funnels.

[@muneshxge]

MMOs suck in general, only giganerds with barely any capacity to interact with moment-to-moment mechanics worship that shit.

[@turnerb1409]

Every video game ever is moment to moment mechanics what kind of statement is that. If there were no mechanics in a game then game wouldn't even work.

[@sprmn1983]

So true, tried a few but they felt more like a chore than actual fun/relaxation time.

[@biadhoce]

@@muneshxgewhat a smooth brain opinion. You’re putting a ton of varied people in a box and casting judgement that doesn’t make sense. Some mmo gamers only play a single mmo, some mmo gamers like competitive games like StarCraft 2 or mobas, some mmo gamers like Rust. It’s a broad spectrum and I’m not sure why you don’t have the capacity to think outside your tiny little box.

[@kokocaptainqc]

@@muneshxge tell me you have no clue what youre saying without telling me you have no clue what youre saying 🤣

[@fk3239]

It is actually very easy to avoid P2W if you stop chasing hot new shit or whatever. There are tens of years of games out there.

[@J0jed]

Guide to make an enjoyable mmo: 1) free to play so that everyone can try the game for a while 2) cash shop with only costumes and fashion 3) subscription If I enjoy the game I will for sure pay for subscription and buy costumes from the shop to support the game. I think FF14 did well, dont know about whats in the shop since I did not look that much into it.

[@axrelis5762]

won't even consider buying a game that has any micro transactions. Im sticking to my ps2 with over100 games. Ill be back when they stop gouging us.

[@kevinclement1533]

Do you forget that Elden Ring and BG3 exists?

[@Snes64]

I did the same thing. I'm in a 90's early 2000's pc time capsule.

[@hypnogri5457]

I think games doing cosmetic-only mtx is fine. (if it has no gambling elements) Its just a different business model and it doesn't harm the player as it does not provide any advantage.

[@kokocaptainqc]

@@hypnogri5457 those that see a problem ther have just so much self restrain that if there is ANYTHING to buy they feel obligated to buy it even if they do so cursing and moaning....its just way stronger them them

[@nikolowolokin]

i totally believe that you're only playing ps2 games, man. yup

[@Snes64]

I retreated to my 90's early 2000's P.C time capsule till this shit is over. See you in 20 years.

[@kokocaptainqc]

problem for me is those games are too short...i need mmo lenght now or i burn out within 2 days

[@millennialgamer8907]

​@@kokocaptainqc get a job, it helps fill in the time so you can't spend 2 days straight playing a game.

[@barnabuskey3956]

New games are made great then they slowly close off sections of code and say you can only have it if you purchase it. Sometimes they also don't release the paid parts for awhile. Problem is lots of the code they separate off is either needed by the rest of the code or has some piece of the other code which messes up everything.

[@MimouFirst]

No, it's just psychological. People don't want to pay $15 a month, however they do often pay $30+ a month on other games or spend the equivalent of $15 a month on free to play games through microtransactions. It's just the idea of having to spend $15 a month for a game when most games don't need that, what bothers people. Not the actual $15 it self. Heck, plenty of people spend over $15 a month on other services and apple payments and such. Even younger people! And they get less value out of that compared to how much they would play the MMO that costs $15. Btw, I think ESO does this the right way. You can play for free completely, however if you pay $15 you get some things that help out. It's not cheaty good, but worth it. It's smart.

[@greenfroggood2392]

Monetizing cosmetics makes sense in other game genres like on dota2 which is a real f2p non-p2w game. Or chess or something, who cares if you pay 1000$ for a new skin, that's not the point of the game so you can say "it's just a cosmetic". But in mmos it doesn't make sense to monetize cosmetics, since that's the whole point of the game. Every aspect of an mmo that is monetized is problematic, it's a fundamental problem with the genre.

[@ionseven]

No casuals are going understand this. Stop accepting ALL games with ANY MTXs whatsoever. Even if you don't buy them or you think they're seemingly innocent, they're NORMALIZED due to their presence alone. ALL of them are bad. NO nuance, no exceptions. Flat priced games or they're scams.

[@lycrus8515]

I'd like to point out that you are fundamentally wrong, but not in a bad sense. This notion of "its just cosmetic" is a company driven one. If you go to the essence of the problem it becomes: exclude as much as possible from a viable game and extract money out of it by making it things to be paid for. Cosmetics, conveniance or power are just sides of the same coin, and, naturally, they will all devolve into each other at some point. Power, conveniance and cosmetics are an inherent joy, and addiction factor, of entertainment, no matter the medium. Various amounts of people care to various degrees about these things. you say pay2win is bad, but its not for a lot of people. you claim cosmetics are fine, but they aren't for a lot of people. then you pair all of this with the logical fact that in order to sell anything, it needs to be better than the free, or worked for option. there is no way around that. any ingame shop, any cosmetics, any conveniance, any power that is being sold for a game negatively affects the joy that you can extract out of that game. you then pair all of this with the fact that buying things feels incredibly unsatisfied compaired to earning things and you receive people that chase the carrot like a donkey, but the carrot isn't even real. the only viable conclusion that remains is that games should br a one time purchase to keep the experience as pure and valuable as it can be. no shop. no extra additions. no fomo. then you will receive the most joyful product. however, most joyful doesnt mean it makes the most money. the most money you. make by exploiting people and their psychological and economical weaknesses. Pick your poison. you can btw easily identify this with yourself by sticking to games for a while that practice none of what "AAA" games do. your experience will be vastly better, and more fulfilling. I hope i explained it well, apologies for typos.

[@greenfroggood2392]

@@lycrus8515 To make it clear, monetizing cosmetics is only acceptable in cases where the game is free (needs to find other ways to monetize) and cosmetics are not really important or the main point of the game. For example if you have a chess platform that sells you cosmetics that makes your king look like a dragon or whatever. Does it really matter? Not really. The point in chess is to have good games and get a higher elo as you become better. But it's different in a mmo. I don't think there's any excuse for these monetization schemes in games that you already pay for, only free ones. But I agree with you that things are better or more joyful without these monetization schemes. I just think they are acceptable if the game is entirely free and cosmetics aren't really an important dimension of the game. I wish there was a cool mmo without bs right now.

[@kokocaptainqc]

my main game is LOTRO because its literally possible to farm store points infinitely and buy eveything FREE....long sure but totally possible and done by many streamers

[@andregon4366]

My favourite games aren't pay to win. Yay me!

[@WingPlaysGames]

As a massive Warframe player I am a bit biased towards the game but I would hardly call it pay to win and most of the stuff is actually inconvenient to buy lol the only things that are convenient to buy are boosters which can basically make you play half as much to earn the same amount. I could go further in depth if someone wants. Almost everything in the market other than cosmetics is a massive fucking ripoff but that’s okay because you can earn them fairly quickly and no one buys them anyways. You can only purchase prime frames when they are initially released and it’s very expensive from the market. BUT the difference is you can trade to get plat to just trade for the prime parts. For example protea prime just came out and for the frame, weapons, exclusive cosmetics only obtainable from this purchase, 2 90 day boosters and it’s $140. But I can buy or trade for about 200-250 plat and get all of it minus the boosters and cosmetics from another player. $20 will get you 370 plat. Regular frames cost 325 plat and is a complete ripoff because almost all of them are easily obtainable. Weapons vary in price but are also a ripoff and easy to get by playing. The major difference between buying from a player or the market is the market will come finished where as you have to build it using resources if you get it from a player. Because Warframe gives you the ability to be a complete f2p player (like myself) but still be able to do any content, I don’t find it to be a p2w game at all. There is nothing in the game you have to purchase to stay relevant or strong or for instance they added a new “endgame” that you can only run once, no matter what. If you just play the game enough and there’s something you don’t have that you want to get, you just trade people your leftovers and buy what you need.

[@user-oe8bu4eb2r]

Other games that have the option of Monthly Sub that pretty much opens up most of the game or removes restrictions include: DCU, SWTOR, DDO (to a certain extent), LOTRO (to a certain extent), and the list goes on... It's mostly older MMORPG's, as most newer games typically opt for a F2P or Monthly Sub to reduce restrictions but almost always still include cash shop items to supplement the income even further... Then you get some MMORPG's that went the extreme direction of removing subs but also adding high restrictions requiring expensive cash shop purchases revolving around Character Specific Unlocks vs Account Unlocks... Champions Online is one of the worst ones... As to the subject of future games, EA and Asian Market Games have proven that the F2P and Cash Shop method makes more money over Box+Sub... The MMORPG market of developers are just a bit too afraid from a corporate standpoint (especially publicly traded ones) to take huge risks on a game that may or may not make money within the first few years... Going F2P+Cash Shop is less risky, and typically tends to work against attrition better then a Box+Sub+Expansions method... Honestly, when I look back, the turning point where F2P and Cash Shops began hitting the MMORPG market hard, happened when SWTOR didn't make the kinds of money expected in it's first year... Up to that point, very few bigger Western Market MMORPG's had a F2P model or the addition of a modern cash shop... Regardless if SWTOR got better later, it was too little too late, the market became scarred after that point... And the market crashing in 2008/2009 didn't help... As to the point of MMORPG's funneling players to the cash shop via the game play... It was always an Asian Market thing, that began worming it's way into the Western Market... Especially after EA began doing it with their games (especially the sports games overseas)... Because it proved to western market gaming developers that the cash shop system, found in most Asian Market games, was a huge money maker... In the same vein as micro transactions with mobile devices... But worse in the PC gaming world, because of the higher prices... As to the "WoW Killers", until WoW subs drop to super low numbers, or Blizzard comes out with another big MMORPG (which will probably never happen any time soon) that draws subs away from WoW itself, no game ever labelled as a "WoW Killer" has ever killed WoW... Especially when they don't innovate enough to move away from the generic High Fantasy scenario with newer systems that draw peeps in...

[@monalisa-bs4zs]

DOwnside to sub only model is it encourages content and gameplay to play out at .5 speed. And i felt that strongly in ff14 coming from eso. Eso is not perfect but always having access to the game, without being gated by sub, is a must going foreword imo.

[@pridefall3304]

idk if I agree with that cause p2w games are even more incentivized to pad out the content. Just look at Genshin Impact's Dickens-level word count. You'd think they got paid by the word. But it's to increase the longevity of the game and keep you always thinking they'll make it better next patch.

[@raevenent751]

I have to ask though out of curiosity how much of ff14 did you play? Like yeah early game, there's no argument there, shit's slow as molasses. But later? The game's speed picks up quite drastically

[@monalisa-bs4zs]

@@raevenent751 during shadowbringers I asked my fc about speeding up walking and mount pace, I quit then and there coz literally every step is slowed to pad out the game.

[@MrWilliGaming]

no, not really.mmo players are like locusts you are never gonna have enough content to fill the months between payments for them unless you want to adopt a biweekly release schedule or something stupid like that. the thing you need to keep in mind is that with a sub you actually have to deliver quality content. the game has to be actually interesting or people are just gonna unsub. with whale economics you just need to cater to your most loyal idiots - much easier.

[@monalisa-bs4zs]

Eso releases new dungeons or areas every 3 months which come with optional sub or can be bought straight up. That option allows players to play no sub. More options for payment is always the better option for consumers. Neither wow or ff14 are that much greater than their competition to show any type of extra quality coming from sub fees. Like i said, in fact from a gameplay and movement perspective they are much worse.

[@ericks1979]

I think the optional subscription for benefits is the best. Normally store cosmetics just means nothing cool looking drops from gameplay.

[@Mozedo]

It also means more development time allocated to store cosmetics in detriment of the gameplay.

[@GravitasZero]

There are 2 kinds of people who say "just say you're broke": those that are trolling for kicks and those who actually believe that statement and are on their way to becoming broke Just because you don't know the value of money doesn't mean everyone else is like that too. You can have money and not want to spend money on absolute bull dished out by corporations that treat their customers like morons and cash cows. Just because I have money doesn't mean I want to be taken advantage off and be treated like an idiot who can't think for himself, like wtf even is that statement. Makes no damn sense.

[@draco0675]

Paying for Crystalline Aura in Lost Ark is the biggest waste of money. It costs anywhere from 12k-14k gold for a 30 day subscription, and one character doing weekly raids makes more than that in one week.

[@TowerdefenseRules]

I extremely will always go by my word of not subscribing to play a game doesn't matter what game 1 payment is enough to play the whole game.

[@YanChose]

Coming from a "Pay To Get a Good Review" content creator. *cough* starfield *cough* The irony.

[@m.poppins4843]

I mean, thats his job. Hyping people to play games. This guy will tell you almost any game is looking great. Yes, like starfield.

[@CptnKraken]

Does anybody know what game is shown at 16:52 - 16:58 ? I’m not super familiar with MMOs but that game looks beautiful!

[@d-pooly79]

Star Trek online has no PvP and no P2W items. It does sadly however, have lockboxes that contain unique ships. However, you can actually buy the lockbox ships with the in game currency EC (energy credits) from the exchange, or directly from other players. You can even gift/trade nearly all items in the game. I think ESO has no P2W either, haven’t played that for quite a while though (since just after Necrom dropped) so I may be wrong about this one.

[@marksayosmejia7251]

Thank god i only play singleplayer games. From ace combat 7, to atelier ryza, and then monster hunter world, or project diva

[@muneshxge]

Based AC/Miku enjoyer

[@Pidbullz]

Osrs bonds are barely pay2win, they used to not be worth like 5bucks 5mil coins, now its 13million, yea inflation will make it eventually not worth your time. Spend 100 bucks save a year of grinding if you a casual i guess.. its why most players are iron in osrs

[@yrtert7138]

brother not only irons are minority of osrs but being able to literally buy BiS gear with your credit card is the definition of P2W. OSRS is even worse than Korean mmos

[@Pidbullz]

@@yrtert7138 any non iron somewhat serious player makes enough gold to buy that gear withour buying bonds(wow token thing for ppl who dont know) Yes casuals use it to even out the playing field but it doesnt make them good and bis gear is so expensive, im gonna guess the amount of people spending irl cash for full bis ingame gear or even half, is at most a few hundred people. Were talking thousands of euros, yo then use that at places that are still hard for them. Its not like wow or korean actual ingame shops, those are so much worse. We have bad value wow tokens any decent player doesnt spend money on cause they actually so the content the noobs buy the gear for I know what im talking about maxes 3 accs, soonish 4 (every mode, hc to go) Idk why you defend korean ingame psychologic shop bullshit vs this either way you just wrong glhf

[@VladiatorX]

@@yrtert7138 The BiS gear cost billions of GP(gold). A bond costs 8$(USD) which sells for about 13m now. Just to get a weapon like the scythe it would be 1.6B/13M= ~985$, for one item(that can be lost by being PKed while being skulled, for example). I think you get it that it is not the way to get it. For PVP you just need to get good, that way you get there faster, for PVMers it is more irrelevant to buy GP through bonds, as that's what they enjoy doing, while making consistent GP to keep going in case they lose an item.

[@kanick1983]

This is why I enjoy FFXIV... yea it has a cash shop but its all cosmetics basically and you can't even access it via ingame....

[@1FatBubbatm]

The only way a subscription based games can exist now is if the primary benefit is if there is significant reduction in cheaters of a given game. A $1 subscription fee would be acceptable. With the subscription model like that cheaters can also get band by payment method as another avenue.

[@BrianMichaluk]

the multiplayer game I am surprised still has no real pay to win required is No Mans Sky

[@mekal177]

How is that surprising? Nms is hardly multi-player at all you can play for hundreds of hours and never see a single person Also there's no pvp whatsoever... Just tacking on a game you like to a subject doesn't work sorry

[@oyshikaadi9631]

@@mekal177 Wait, pretty sure The Anomaly Station that you find a few hours in is multiplayer only no? (Unless you specifically disable multiplayer) And if you specifically want to play with others, you could do what others did and just head to systems like The Naboo System. I've met friended people who I now frequently play with. Regarding PVP, most people just have it disabled in their network settings, so if anything, its the players that doesn't want a PVP experience, but its there for people who want it.

[@PanjolArt]

don't worry guys, soon, AoC will save us all.

[@NeDixTV]

If you are expecting wow 2 from aoc u will be disappointed, aoc it's L2+archeage systems Even so I expect the worst player base on that game, that devs won't be able to control

[@kokocaptainqc]

Age of Conan? been out since 2008

[@graphosencrenoir4006]

best pay-to-win system in a MMO is for Warframe. You can spend real money to get some powerful characters and weapons that are lock or hard to farm,, or you can make in-game coins from farming and buy them from other players in-game store. Basic any playr can have same powerful upgrades, armor, weapons but will be a race in between poor players that will invest hundred of hours to farm those stuff versus wallet-warriors that will have them in a blink of eye.

[@user-zh8nb1fg2q]

because its possible to do rmt real market trading. so the devs might aswell just implement it themselves.

[@SirReadAgain]

meanwhile here I am playing guild wars 2 with core paladin killing people in PVP and WvW. and that is basically free.

[@Shiirow]

you not engaging in P2W doesnt mean P2W ceases to exist. Im sure you can find hundreds of people who play openly pay to win games that can say what you just said, doesnt make those games less P2W.

[@giga8847]

People pay like 150 a month for streaming services. 25 bucks a month for a good mmo is okay. The problem is, this companys make much more money with a P2W shop compared to a sub fee of 25 bucks. And the reason is really simple. To be honest and price your product correctly at the start, you need more time to grow a playerbase in mass. People are biased at first. Make your game free to play, and implement later a cash shop, and now you got a real business.

[@Snes64]

More like $10 for streaming.

[@DeBean970]

He's referring to a survey that claimed people spend that much on subscriptions every month. I remember hearing that before but I can't find anything. A more recent study says U.S. consumers pay $61 per month on streaming. And this is higher than last year because of price hikes.

[@kokocaptainqc]

lmao 150 a month 🤣

[@StarSuperStatus]

You really think on average people pay 150 a month on streaming services?

[@giga8847]

hei guys, i was referring to a video from Mrwhostheboss - the internet is starting to break. But yeah i just exagerated a bit. non the less, i would gladly pay 25 bucks a month for a wow server without wow token. i would go as far as paying 30 bucks if it meant the cometic shop gets also removed. I know iknow, a bit crazy but yeah, what you guys think?

[@fafnirchaos0711]

How I explain pay to win games is like this: There is 2 Lines and 3 categories - First Category is casual, you play the game on weekends, you don't think too much of it, you play them a couple of hours at night after a long day during that weekend. - The second category is Regular average gamer, you play games as your entertainment, a couple of hours at night and all weekend - it doesn't effect your life. - The third category is hardcore, you play games all the time, your tired at work and all you think about during the day is getting back home to play video games. Now the two lines that separate these categories are completely different the line between casual and regular is thick - your making a conscience decision of playing during the week off from your regular 2-3 hours during the weekend - it is not normal for you. The line between Regular and hardcore is so thin that you wouldn't know that you crossed over until you see the effects in the mirror one day. Free to play games: Remove the first line between casual and regular, and get rid of the regular category, all your left with is a thin line between casual and hardcore. Buy your games people - it's the healthier choice.

[@lionart5230]

You know that you can workout 3 times a week, work/study, meet friends/family in weekend and play after work and in rest free time in weekend? Can be healthy and good at the game. Only issue is if you have hobby to pursue, then you cannot be "hardcore". Game becomes your hobby but you become good at it and can compete. If someone never got interested in anything or need escapism, I think that's fair. Along the way, people can monetize their gameplay/expertise if game is popular.

[@fafnirchaos0711]

@@lionart5230 Yeah that's casual - that's fine - that itself is healthy - nothing wrong with that. If you want to play games you buy a game and you can forget about it and play it when you have free time. F2P games TARGET causal markets and try to suck them into the hardcore market - being that if you don't want to spend money - you have to play the game in a hardcore manner - sometimes with extreme cases like "Oh an event is happening, better block out a time during the day(whether it's at work, or late at night after acceptable sleep times) or else I'll be kicked out of my social group in the game", "Always gotta do my dallies"- That or your spending money on RNG. and you know what happens to free to play games after the EoS - all that time and money - Gone.

[@fafnirchaos0711]

@@lionart5230 To put a final thing to it - Hardcore gamers while spend probably every waking moment playing games - are a lot more stable then a F2P player, being that while you may think and talk about video games all the time as a hardcore player - your not running home or disappearing from work just to play a game for a half hour to an hour. That itself is when you know the game is controlling you. Hardcore gamers who buy games are really not controlled by a video game - they just play it too much and maybe tired at work or talk about it way too much.

[@lionart5230]

@@fafnirchaos0711 I had one or two games that I saw this issue with. One was Hearthstone and ability to keep only 3 quests so F2P players had to do dailies. Second was Rise of Mythos/Kings and Legends where you got some bonus for first game of the day (along with some upgrades that you were waiting for 24h etc). To be honest never felt like I "have to" do it but if I played the game everyday, I did it all the time except for example vacation/travel where you disappear for 2 days - 2 weeks. I never had this urge to leave in specific time to play the game though. Seems weird. I am against every single daily, battle/season pass and other FOMO shit.

[@fafnirchaos0711]

@@lionart5230 I played 3 games that had all of that stuff in it, and it was based upon the Meta - and the Meta made it so that if you win an event you get rewards based upon the rank you made it to - and FOMO is basically everything because the rewards for winning would make you even more powerful than anybody you ran into - and you will run into these whales in competitive, just to throw it in your face that you never spent money or did your heavy grind. I also played 1 MMO - one of the first ones - back in high school, spent my entire summer playing that grindfest, and trying to maximize the money i spent on the subscription - and i remember sitting down on the steps of my house 2 days before school started, and wondered where my summer went. From my experience within those games, and what I've actually seen what happens to people playing those games(one person playing the game in a hospital bed just to help out their guild make it to a high rank) pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about F2P games. you buy a game - you have a complete experience - you can put it into your backlog and can make conscience discussions on whether or not you want to play that game casual or hardcore based upon your current situation - and the fact you can play it 10 years later without worrying about the developers EoSing the game because not enough whales are spending money on it.

[@austinXDFtw]

I know you hate to mention it, but GuildWars2 honestly has some of the best monetization in the industry. You can play the core game for free for as long as you want, the expansions are fairly priced, there's no monthly sub whatsoever. The gem store exists but it is truly optional. While there are a lot of skins for sale there is a ton of good looking cosmetic items you can only get from gameplay. There are convenience items such as bank tabs but they aren't necessary unless you are investing hundreds of hours into the game. You can convert gems into gold, but making gold in game isnt predatory, in fact I know quite a few players who have never bought gems and solely convert gold to gems for their purchases. At the same time you really can't use gold to make your character stronger, the highest tier of gear can only be acquired through gameplay and is account bound on acquire. The options to spend money are there, however it's balanced very fairly, respecting players time and giving the developer an outlet to fund the game.

[@rubenloza1920]

The thing with FF14 is its not pay to win but they also do absolutely nothing to stop rotation botting and rmt money selling.. so its just black market pay to win. You more or less have to stream it and be big enough for them to see it / you get reported for it (yeah if someone is that dumb) to even get caught.

[@doodoo417]

you are forgetting retainers

[@yvindvego9404]

what do you mean square dont do anything? they ban 1000s of bots every month

[@hightierplayers2454]

14 absolutely has pay to win in the form of instant levels and story skips. Its design is so bad, there's no endgame or competitive skilled activities anyways for them to add that form of pay-to-win. Not a good solution to have pointless item level-based grindfests for cosmetics only.

[@marian2222222]

I honestly don't understand why people are so ok with p2w/convenience, subscriptions and season passes, but against cosmetics... RIOT did it right for so long. The funny thing is they put season passes in because the players asked for it. Content creators/influencers are also to blame for supporting and promoting these games that have such predatory systems in place. I agree with Asmon, people need to stop paying for p2w and whenever p2w is added into a game just quit.

[@NeoN-PeoN]

If all your favorite games are P2W, then you probably only get anything from games IF you win.

[@JamieHitt]

A lot of players don't care about the "pay-to-win" as long as it doesn't ruin the in-game economy. You want that thriving auction house with appropriate pricing. Then, instead of grinding for gear, you grind for currency...and buy your gear from the auction house. Some people even view THAT as "pay-to-win". And that's not fair. That's literally how the game works.

[@MrGaky]

All my favorite streamers are pay to watch

[@slizeres]

Use adblock, problem solved

[@kokocaptainqc]

@@slizeres easier to complain and do nothing apparently

[@bradkirchhoff5703]

A major reason is bc servers cost money to run. This is why so many ppl say Single player offline games are A NECESSITY. Multiplayer games cost a lot more to keep going. Offline games dont need servers and ppl to run servers.

[@Shiirow]

I always find it funny, the people who would say a sub fee is too much will be nine times out of ten will also be the one dropping 200 bucks on cash shop items monthly for a free to play pay to win shovelware title.

[@AntonioCunningham]

Players agency is a thing. What's the scriptures you have no agency. Put microtransactions you do. If you stop paying the subscription, you cannot play. If you stop buying microtransactions, you can still play the game. It doesn't take much thought trying to figure out why people prefer microtransations over Subscriptions.

[@metallixro]

One MMO I play, were you can swipe as much as you want (well actually I think there are limits) and its still not pay2win: Albion Online! Full loot pvp MMO go ahead swipe but its only gonna end up in someone else's possession pretty soon. Yeap you can buy gold, exchange it for silver (other players will trade their silver for gold to pay for the optional sub) and buy some gear from the in game Marketplace, gear that other players crafted, gear which will drop on death. Its a system that even Asmongold would appreciate.

[@kokocaptainqc]

🤣

[@levantinedoomer2317]

And look how they ruined the enjoyment of that system. Sbi and stillfront kept making the rewards worse and worse while premium cost skyrocketed, to push players into paying real money for premium. New players have no idea how good it was compared to how straight garbage it is right now. If you didn't play before 2022, then you don't know the difference. We used to disagree with the p2w accusations but Stillfront's greed ruined this amazing game. Everyone I knew quit. It's literally pay to win now.

[@levantinedoomer2317]

Every counterpoint the coping albion redditors make is destroyed by the explanations and analogies that are made in this video btw.

[@2chrisby]

This is why I love the deals 9n PSN for older games

[@IsaacMSingleton1]

I think the biggest issue is the games that are released unfinished, or like the new assassins creed, hide a singular mission behind a paywall. Gamers will pay the money to enjoy the game, but the game has to be enjoyable.

[@jackharpe3rd233]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are still a handful of 2D MMOs like Adventure-Quest and Mech-Quest that are still supported and prefer $5 subscriptions, which is quite cheap if you're into 2D JRPGs.

[@mmeers89]

I see level skips (the boosts you buy to shoot your character up to max level) are a deterant because you will more often that not, not know how to play that character. But you don't want to delete the character and waste that money, so you buy a new character slot.

[@wtj83tw]

What was the name of that third person shooter game that they showed n the beginning??

[@MorluG]

If they ever release a "Lost Ark Evolved." That was just a monthly sub, and no shop(besides skins.) It would be the perfect MMO (Until RMT ruins it.)

[@nosferatuzodd8]

I really noticed this for party-based MMOs. There are literally ZERO party-based MMORPGs (where you control multiple characters at once) that is not a gatcha game. I actually have a complete design for a non-ptw party-based MMO because there is absolutely no alternative to gatchas on the market right now.