All of Your Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 Questions, Answered! | DOR Podcast #97

[@DoctorsofRunning]

This weeks Subjective: What makes a shoe soft for you?

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

You guys are the best. E Speed reviews,from othe reviews are all over the place but you guys nailed down the basic issues and not getting into the speed vs pro3 thing.

[@MadelnMachines]

Thanks very much for addressing my questions in depth. Based on what you've said the Pro 3 is probably not for me (even though I want it to be - a shoe that bounces and kicks you forward sounds amazing and exciting). It's a big difference between picking the shoe you aspire to be able to run in and think you want to run in vs the reality of your running level and ability. I have been suffering from shin splints which I think was caused by my old beater revolution 5s (that I weight lifted a lot in) being really firm and having no cushion left in them. I then tried the Invincible run and really enjoyed the bouncy cloud like sensation but felt like they over worked my core and left my muscles leg muscles quite fatigued around 24 hours . Because i'm a bit heavier (5ft 10.5 - 186lbs) and like to weight train a lot I kind of probably NEED is something that is going going to keep me safe and comfortable churning out my 5km runs at that 8 to 8.45 minute miles and leave me with minimal fatigue ready for my weight training. What I WANT is something bouncy propulsive exciting and fun. I think the Tempus or Speed 3 are probably the best middle ground for that. I do run on treadmill a lot more than I run on the road by the way. It's interesting you talk about softness because I do get confused with the difference between softness and cushioning. Is the speed 3 much more stable than the invincible run? It seems like the speed could be good for me. I don't know whether I should go for max cushioned or not or soft or firm. I feel like I enjoy soft but at the end of the day I don't want to risk getting shin splints again. The guide 15 felt very soft enough on the treadmill whereas the 860 v11 felt very firm. I imagine the speed is softer with more bounce than the guide 15 but quite a bit firmer than the invincible run. I'm not sure about the bounce or propulsion compared to the invincible 2 since its probably firmer but then has a plate (I've never run in a plated shoe before but I expect it to add spring/bounce). Soft and bouncy yet stable neutral might be a good balance and sounds like how I guess the speed 3 might be. The more v3 is something I've been thinking about because of your review about it being soft and well cushioned yet highly stable too. From what you've said I guess the speed 3 is more versatile than it for different speeds but would be softer and less stable? The shoes i'm thinking of are either the speed 3, more v3, glideride 3, tempus or guide. I might order the the speed 3 and tempus and see how I feel about having the guidance aspect of it. I have quite high arches by the way and if I pronate I think it would only be slightly.

[@jaco66]

100% would be interested in apparel. That was the first thing I looked for after seeing you guys running through Boston

[@michaelcrespo2928]

Agree- particularly if it is tech apparel.

[@ptlewis2000]

Listening to Spotify Podcast. I've just decided that when I'm in peak marathon training, I want whatever shoe rotation Matt wears, or prefers to wear. Marathon Race, Fast Long training, Slow long training/Recovery, Speed work/5k/10k racer (if different from Marathon Racer), and Daily versatile workhorse. So far it's Endorphin Pro 2/Alpha Fly w/ Curex Low Profile insoles, Zoom Fly 4/ Carbon X2, Kayano 27/Endorphin Shift, and Endorphin Pro 1/Kinvara 12/Fastwitch 9, but still looking for that Nike Lunarglide/Odyssey/older Structure daily workhorse. But something is not working as I'm still getting ankle issues that requires a day or 2 rest with 60 mile weeks. Usually after long hard workouts in the most neutral shoes, and need to spend a couple slow days in the Kayano. I just got the Tempus now and I'm warming up to it as my daily workhorse. Not a tempo, speed, or race shoe. Needs an Endorphin like rocker. #bigbonedflatfootedrunner

[@runnin3216]

I consider softness to be something that compresses under load. From there I start to differentiate based on the resiliency of the midsole, which separates the recovery run shoes from the marathon racers.

[@amandawalker4510]

Soft for me is sinking into the midsole( some sketchers cheap slipper shoes) , but then there is spongey soft ( fuelcell) ,hokas are a firm cushion for me , however the new mach 5 is a bit spongey too now.. as you always say some midsole comes to life when running at different paces. Ie NB rebel springs to mind.. such a subjective topic, like choosing a pillow and wine 😀 we all have different tastes . Thanks boys for bringing up this topic ,

[@JohnBirtchetSharpe]

I am more on the side of the mushy/marshmallowy is soft (peba/pebax-based foams) , then there is some in between (nitrogen-infused foam or Altra's ego stuff) , then plain old EVA (which can be brilliant if the geometry is spot on). Re apparel of course but it depends on the quality, I would give the guys at PATH projects a shout, they are on your side of the Atlantic the quality looks to be on par of boutique brands over here (Soar, Saysky,On & Rockay) .

[@eric-running-to-chamonix]

My definition of soft is “does not feel like a 2x4 after 16 miles”

[@alanshrimpton6787]

My recommendation is a pod cast on how to build a training plan because Matt has no run planned day to day 🤣. Meanwhile I know every run and have scheduled right up until 12 Feb 2023. To a answer your previous question of softness. I have a wart on my foot. Softness is if I can feel that wart when running. Novablast 2: Soft. Evoride 2 : Firm. Endorphin Pro 1 : Neither soft but not firm even after 600km in it.

[@WhatMatterstoMatt]

When it comes to durometer. I understand the “put it on your foot”and “it’s going to vary on the person” and also I love the analogy with the playing telephone. I also get that durometer can’t be a stand alone measure on its own because other parts of the shoe (outsole, carbon plate, etc…) would influence how a shoe feels, but I am wondering if that is a good reason to dismiss checking durometer all together? Or could durometer be just more information to guide folks purchase decisions to take into account with all of the other information that we provide when giving reviews on shoes. I love the reviews and I love the perspective that at the end of the day each individual is different but durometer still might have a place (take a piece of pine wood and cut it to size and throw a carbon plate in it and throw that on the bottom of the endorphin speed 3 and you might notice the Durometer of that midsole “foam” feels just a little different. ) 😂

[@DoctorsofRunning]

You make some great points! Durometer is going to vary between, that’s for sure. However, the biggest issue is that durometer doesn’t correlate with mechanical loading testing, which mimics loading during running much more closely than a durometer test. Definitely we don’t need to throw out durometer, but the useful information from that measure is limited. If you haven’t yet, check out our podcast episodes with Geoff Burns - he gives a good rundown on durometer and it’s limitations.

[@i.p2088]

I have the Speed 2 and its my favourite shoe. Ordered the Speed 3. Getting it next week. I find the Speed 2 bouncy and fast. I heard the comparison with the Novablast 2. I don't feel energy return in the Novablast 2...

[@robertarmero6320]

Soft is when you sink into it like an RC Elite 2, and easy to squeeze with the hands, not the same as highly cushioned

[@romeoiipunzalan1079]

Come to think of it, how would you defind the term "bricks"? I mean in shoe terms...

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

That's a cool shirt. Cotton or tech? Put a way to buy it, sure I will buy.

[@edwinduisburg8138]

I tend to decide on the softness of the shoe by putting the shoe at certain paces. Squeezing the midsole with your hand or just wearing them can be deceiving in my opinion unless you properly run in them. For the comparison at sub 20 5K pace, lightstrike pro (especially on Takumi sen 8) foam feels more balanced and effortless. On the other hand, when I run at the same pace with Puma's peba nitro foam ( on deviate nitro elite) it feels overly soft for that pace and I get tired easily even though the shoe has a carbon plate in it. Also question for DoR: Any plans for episode 100 special?

[@DoctorsofRunning]

Working on it :)

[@zhaomingkoh2671]

Yes please merch :)

[@willwilling4728]

What are 3 shoes that are good for runners with stiff toes? I broke my big toe years ago and I don't have much flex in it. Sometimes it's very stiff and it also affects the two toes next to my big toe. Thanks

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Deceleration. I can sorta feel the foot decelerating into the shoe. That's soft. Do you buy that? That a person can feel deceleration?

[@hamoudalnasser]

How would these shoes work as racers for an intermediate runner. I have no issues with stability, and already have a Saucony Kinvara and a New Balance Rebel as tempo shoes, was considering this as an entry level racing shoe, before I eventually upgrade towards an elite racer. Would it work as a marathon shoe for an intermediate runner?

[@mazz4149]

I have a “marathon speed” at around 5:45-5:30km/h. The Speed 3 works perfect for me. It works fine at slow pace, but starts get more fun at higher speed. I found most plated shoes to be too aggressive for me, but the speed 3 works fine for my speed. I rally enjoy them. If you can get it to fit correctly, I think the Adidas adios pro 3 also is a good option for none elite runners.

[@notall1196]

the heel rubbing is brutal, other than that the shoe is amazing

[@connorrrr3304]

Would you recommend the speed 3 or the ASICS noosa tri 14 for a first time half marathon runner? Looking for moderate stability and am shooting for 1:45-1:50

[@nate.docsofrunning]

Good question! Both viable options. There’s more of a cushioned feeling from the Speed 3, but the Noosa is more inherently stable. If you have the opportunity, try them both on! - Nate from DOR

[@cristianfcao]

What's the difference between Speed 3 vs Pro 3 in terms of durability? Is the v3 less durable? Can you give me a milage estimation?

[@DoctorsofRunning]

Midsole-wise it’s similar. Outsole and upper would wear out sooner on the Pro 3.

[@cristianfcao]

@@DoctorsofRunning That's what I thought, yes... The eyelets in particular seem a bit flimsy. Anyway, how many miles do you think they'd last?

[@chrisscheideman7969]

What’s the flexibility and rocker like compared to the Tempus?

[@nate.docsofrunning]

A bit less flexible and more rockered

[@yeowmun]

Lot of problem with Speed 1, speed 3 slow to fast all good.

[@amandaball7116]

What about grip in the wet?

[@DoctorsofRunning]

Average at best. It’s a bit smooth underfoot.

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Rob Thomas/Santana.

[@adamsouthard1155]

8-8.5mph