All Over The MAP: Are Fender's Prices ILLEGAL?

Fender's push towards direct to consumer sales brings up the question of legality of "Minimum Advertised Price" (MAP) and how it relates to guitar brands, stores, and consumers. Is Fender undercutting their store networks? How does the Sherman Act in the United States compare to rules in the UK? Did Guitar Center collude with manufacturers to set prices?

[@SapulpaGuitarAcademy]

MAP is always a funky territory to play in. We all know dealers who are currently selling new guitars as "mint" in order to get around MAP right now. Even Sweetwater is moving "mint" items through their GearNuts accounts on Reverb and eBay. Great video!

[@blueslawyer]

Thanks Chris! Interesting workaround.

[@MashaT22]

@@blueslawyeryeah but does the GearNuts workaround offer the same warranty, guarantees, as well as the inspection that buying on Sweetwater’s site offers? That’s a huge value right there that buying direct from Fender won’t offer, but how about buying from GearNuts? I wonder if they still offer all those things - like people are probably better off just doing the unspoken thing of calling and asking for a discount, so you can be sure you’re getting all of the same benefits as buying new. Might pay to do some homework to find out the lowest cost of the new guitar from the manufacturer, GearNuts, and other competitors selling that guitar as new or “mint” condition, and then be prepared to negotiate with a Sweetwater rep to get the same lowest price you may have seen elsewhere. It has to be done on the phone because of the legalities with MAP, as I understand, but I’ve found that Sweetwater is happy to give discounts and/or price match and even beat the lowest price you’ve found you provide if you ask nicely over the phone. These days, it’s easy to use apps to help you found to lowest prices on specific products, including instruments. I can’t tell you how many times my friend has taken advantage of the Sweetwater guarantees, which is often goes above and beyond the manufacturer guarantee and makes less hassle to take advantage of cashing in on a warranty - she traded a high end Fender ukulele FOUR times with various QC issues like electronics not working or cracked binding. Or she had another situation where Sweetwater got in touch with Ibanez and within 3-4 weeks, Sweetwater sent a replacement backplate for a TOD10N guitar that is still back ordered 2 years later (Ibanez likely wouldn’t have been so quick to help if my friend went to them directly for help instead of SW - it might have taken months at best if SW wasn’t involved). Sw also has surprisingly sent her things like DeOxit when she said the electronics on another guitar seemed to be cutting in and out before making her ship the guitar back to check whether there was in fact an electrical issue. So yeah, if you buy from GearNuts, will Sweetwater still offer all of that assistance in the first two years? I’m going to guess that’s not likely because then they can say the instrument was sold as “mint” and not “new” on paper even if it was in fact technically new in reality. I bet you’d be lucky to get about 90-days of a warranty at the most and maybe even nothing at all. I’m going to check it out a bit more, but I don’t think it’s a solid workaround from a consumer protections and savings standpoint. You’re probably better off buying direct from SW and negotiating a discount of equal or more value so you won’t lose a two year warranty and all the other benefits it provides on the same new instrument from GearNuts just because they sold it as “mint” condition instead of new. Also, I’d actually question the legality of Sweetwater trying to get around MAP laws by selling new instruments as “mint” because the customer won’t have the same 2 years of Sweetwater support, the benefit of a 60 point inspection, etc. when they actually should. I also wonder if it could invalidate the manufacturer’s lifetime warranty against defects (for brands that offer one) if the customer has no papers to show they bought it as a new instrument. This GearNuts thing a bit of a grey area, if you ask me . . . but I’m just a customer and not a lawyer. I know small shops and other large retailers are also known to do this same practice, but I just don’t see how it is legal because the customer is ultimately losing out on what is actually a new instrument and may not realize at the time of sale that they’re actually getting screwed out of product support for an instrument they could have still gotten new with a discount had they just picked up the phone and called their favorite retailer to ask for a discount. We all know people can’t read through all the legal fine print and fully understand their rights. Someone could buy it thinking it’s an awesome deal on a new instrument, and then find out much later on that they can’t use the manufacturer lifetime warranty because they purchased it as “mint” - nobody wants to find out that the warranty is void well after the time of sale, especially on mid to high end guitars they thought were protected. I’m sure you can understand all of my concerns and points. Perhaps this “mint” subject regarding GearNuts/SW and other dealers doing this type of practice would make a great follow up video? I surely am curious about the legalities involved the more I think about it.

[@blueslawyer]

@@MashaT22 thank you for the thorough response! This sounds like a future video topic.

[@GuitarsZnuff]

Really shows you the power Guitar Center had at one time with regards to MAP. Fender and Gibson going direct would really cause me to think twice about carrying new stock if I was a dealer. Great video!

[@blueslawyer]

Buying power is power. Thank you!

[@MrDevins]

Thank you for an antitrust lesson that hits home.

[@blueslawyer]

Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and comment! See you around the channel!

[@danthegeetarman]

Very good breakdown as always! as a consumer, you are 100% - why pay the extra $400 when you can get it more affordable. I took this philosophy one step further though for myself. Why buy new at all? I know some people will say warranty, but in 30 years of playing guitars I’ve never had an item go bad, plus Guitar Center used has no questions asked Pro coverage. So I just get used for a steal of a price, pay an extra $30 for pro coverage, and not have to worry about all this crazy MAP pricing stuff lol also if I decide to sell in the future, I’m not at a loss because I got it for below the normal used price. I know this is not the norm, but I’m a never-ending bargain hunter lol

[@blueslawyer]

The same is true for studio equipment as well... My expensive recording interface lost 40% of its value the second I opened the box

[@danthegeetarman]

@@blueslawyer 100%. I know that exact feeling. I’m also a mastering engineer and when I used to have a full hardware setup, there were hardware compressors and EQs that dropped thousands of dollars in value the second you opened them 😳

[@blueslawyer]

@@danthegeetarman lol but after that, they hold that diminished value forever!

[@danthegeetarman]

@@blueslawyer yep! 💯 I would think, “okay, if I buy this used for $1500, and it normally sells for $2300 used, i can use it as long as I want, and when (or if - I tend to hoard more lol) I want to sell it, then I should easily break even (with an added safety buffer in case there is some type of drop in value) - if not even make a couple extra dollars”. That’s the same logic I use for my guitar collection too 😁

[@gantronyc]

Great breakdown of MAP. This should be used in training videos. Thanks!

[@blueslawyer]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the comment and see you around the channel

[@gordonplatter9162]

I like litz when I lived in Gburg I bought every thing from them , matter of fact I own Jeff ' s old V

[@coreycann6751]

Yeah it’s crazy. My Cobain jaguar was nearly the same price as that Indonesian hollow body Tom Delong guitar and it’s much more guitar in terms of specs and came with a hard case. Fenders prices make no sense

[@KennedyIvy]

As a business owner (even small local businesses) you take risks. Fender is providing the best price, which is just standard competition and benefits the consumer. Local businesses can get wrecked

[@blueslawyer]

You could argue that Fender advertising the lowest price brings attention to the guitars and this may inspire someone to go to a local shop to try one out and then haggle to that lower price.

[@fader_dragon]

The real crime is Fender charging extra for the sonic blue version of that Jag-Stang.

[@blueslawyer]

Tone is in the paint

[@mcdingus5081]

No offense, but anyone paying MAP price for anything musical equipment related doesn't know what they are doing. My take on MAP has always been that nobody can advertise a price lower than MAP. That doesn't mean you can't sell the item for less, you just can't advertise it. There are many ways retailers get around the MAP pricing, and I've always felt that any retailer that complains that they can't compete just don't have a good business model. The markups are quite healthy on music gear- so discounts should be expected. That is why you just don't click on an item and online shop. Going into a retailer will get you better prices as long as you attempt to get better pricing. Also, if you look at every online retailer- they all have phone numbers that they encourage you to call. That's because they cannot advertise their best price, but if you call them- they can give you a better price. I'm just scratching the surface with what retailers do- there are a couple of other ways they get around it as well. Anyone that buys enough gear knows the drill.

[@blueslawyer]

Everything is negotiable

[@zachjones1716]

You can't trade towards the lowest price, but it is shitty of Fender to do still. Especially with the other complaints about them lately such as QC issues. Imagine if a brand with bigger price swings did this on purpose. Like Warwick/Framus

[@HenrySchecker]

Music store by me has the new MiM jagstang for $849. It was traded in last december and its been sitting there untouched

[@blueslawyer]

Not a bad price... But definitely a niche instrument

[@PhilDietz]

I visited a huge GC in another state and besides having 300+ fenders, (most GC have 100)... This store had models on sale I'd never seen on sale anywhere. AVRI IIs for 1749. Pro IIs for 1399. Ultras for 1799. New not used. I've been meaning to drive back down there. lol. So i take it each store can lower it like a "manager special" if needed.

[@blueslawyer]

There's a price that they can advertise and then there's the price they'll let you take it home. Everything is negotiable.

[@PhilDietz]

@@blueslawyer they had hangtags with the special prices so the price was "formal". My local GC only likes MSRP and once in a blue moon a sale price during a guitarathon. So I guess the answer is to drive to them all and look for the special ones.

[@blueslawyer]

@@PhilDietz there are worse ways to spend your day :)

[@riffmondo9733]

“It Depends” is what ruins societies.

[@blueslawyer]

And "depends" keeps you from ruining pants (cue the rim shot)

[@ahoneyman]

What defines "used"? Can a GC just open the box, put it on display for 5 minutes, and then put it on sale as "used mint" with a full warranty? Someone could try it out in store. Is that "use"?

[@auntjenifer7774]

They mark it "used" so they can sell it below map price. That's all there is to it. I've bought many brand new items in marked used and paid 70% less than retail and am very happy with those prices ! I got a brand new EVH 5150 40 watt 112 combo brand new in the plastics, boxed and unopened for $293+tax because it was marked used. They retail for $900+tax so I paid 1/3 retail! That makes me happy and really it's the only way I can afford new gear !

[@himester666]

Typically “used” means it was sold to somebody. Old man buys guitar and puts in closet , doesn’t play it, then dies and his kids sell it back that is a “used” guitar because somebody else owned it. You’ll see it’s mint 🤷‍♂️ Non sold guitar that gets a ding in it gets a clearance discount but is not a “used” guitar There is nuance and lots of situations of course but it really boils down to has it ever been sold to anybody other than the dealer that owns it

[@orionz06]

MAP can be great, but it requires the manufacturer to honor their retailers and not try and compete with them, such as Fender has been doing.

[@nathansongne9790]

Fuck Fender. They removed my union signage from the break room lmao. Meanwhile they work with Tom Morello, a guy who goes to union rallies 😂😂😂

[@blueslawyer]

Wait what? What's your union?

[@nathansongne9790]

@@blueslawyer I don't have one. I was trying to start one. 60 Cycle Hum has a video about part of what we were working on. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKXFgotmiaqdqJIsi=BCEDsQuhD6PZ_OwZ

[@auntjenifer7774]

😂 I guess fender is only working with communist unions or just unions that won't effect their workers !?❤ You can't get their workers thinking about unionizing ?

[@geraldscott4302]

Competition is good. That's how capitalism is SUPPOSED to work. But there are lots of problems. I don't know about guitars and musical instruments, but many retailers in my area, especially car dealers and so called "powersports" dealers (formerly "motorcycle" dealers) have gotten together and agreed to not compete, and all sell for the same prices. That is price fixing. But they have been getting away with it for a long time, and it isn't a secret. Everybody knows about it. But this is another matter. This is a manufacturer competing directly against retailers, who have a much higher overhead, and can't match direct manufacturer to consumer prices. So Fender, and any other company for that matter, should decide whether or not they want to sell direct, or through retail shops, and not try to do both. I'm not sure which I would prefer. Last summer I bought an American Professional II Fender Strat HSS from Sweetwater. It was around $1900 plus tax. It arrived in perfect condition. Sweetwater had completely gone over it to make sure everything was ok. They had supposedly even tuned it, which was kind of worthless. New strings stretch, and I needed to retune it a couple of times before it would stay in tune. I have heard about people buying directly from Fender, and getting guitars with problems. Fender does not provide customer service. Some retailers don't either. I bought from a place with a reputation for great customer service, and I was and still am very happy with my guitar. That might not be the case had I ordered it directly from Fender.

[@somebrains5431]

I thought the music industry was supposed to crash this year. Oh well, I'll wait for Guitar Center to start blowing out their used gear and closing locations.

[@blueslawyer]

Haha definitely

[@OrangeMicMusic]

From what I understand it's illegal now to sell a pre-owned Fender. They can fine you, or even throw you in jail 😅😊😅

[@blueslawyer]

You gotta make all your sales in the alley out back

[@auntjenifer7774]

How did you come to that conclusion!? 🤣

[@MrNatural_OG]

advice to guitar stores,. get out now

[@blueslawyer]

Stores will just have to increase added value products like free setups and lessons

[@fingerfret8645]

Respectfully, most of this info sounds like legal mumbo-jumbo. Like the sale of music (CDs, DLs, etc.) its real net effect is price fixing, IMHO.

[@blueslawyer]

Fair critique, but sometimes legal mumbo jumbo is the difference

[@GuitarsZnuff]

Respectfully, they make it difficult to understand for a reason. I also find it funny that you criticize a channel called Blues Lawyer Confessional for using and discussing this legal "mumbo jumbo,". What did you think you were getting?

[@fingerfret8645]

@@GuitarsZnuff I am not critical of this channel, but rather the convoluted way the court responded. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with....well, you know.