All The Secret Worlds in The Sims 4

[@mishalee6762]

They missed a great opportunity to put in a special place in Island Living. Imagine a grotto with mermaids and actually having to find the mermaid kelp rather than your sim returning from a cave with it magically in their inventory.

[@cassodembreankia2076]

No kidding. I was just thinking that! What a missed opportunity to not have a Mermaid Lagoon/Grotto at the bottom of that cave

[@nosleepzonee]

i believe the sims free play has that? i'm not too sure since it's been years since i've played that game.

[@lily0987]

I know. So much was missed. An underwater world?

[@nosleepzonee]

@@lily0987 pretty much every pack there is has a missed opportunity that could’ve made the game way better, but again it’s EA.

[@lily0987]

@@nosleepzonee it’s annoying though because the mermaids could’ve been done so better. It was a bit disappointing, especially since there isn’t much to do in Sulani, have developed mermaids (like vampires) would’ve been super cool

[@TheMissileHappy]

Fun fact: If you are in the scientist career you sometimes get invited to a party on Sixam and there's much more to do in this world. It's honestly pretty fun to hang out and party with a bunch of aliens.

[@kahare9565]

I’m so upset they don’t throw the various parties when you go through the wormhole via rocket or door, just via scientist

[@joshschoonover2645]

Is it a lot also? Can I "move" there?

[@blahgurl13652007]

Yeah I've gotten to Sixam via being a scientist. You have to invent a portal on the scientist inventor thing and it acts as a passage between sim world and Sixam.

[@joshschoonover2645]

@@blahgurl13652007 that's amazing. I've done the science career a few times but never up to level 10 so. Maybe I'll give it another try. I also did the space career but I don't think up to 10. So I've double missed out on this place.

[@onidaaitsubasa4177]

Hmm, an alien party would be fun, but there's still one important thing before sending my Sims off to party, do they have toilets? Do aliens even need to pee? Or do they have like bottomless bladder technology or something, hmm, maybe I'll send one of my Spellcasters along with some potions to restore all needs.

[@Draeyad]

Slyvan Glade is my absolute favorite for the ambiance. There’s actually a mod to make every world have that same coloring. It’s so beautiful.

[@leggie1126]

what is the mod called? Id love to get it!

[@leegornik8656]

I just saw you in plumbellas comment section!

[@wiktorska]

Just saw u in comments on Vixella's vid!

[@thornless_flora]

I really want to know what this is called now.

[@deborah2763]

Don't be shy, share it us this mod ❤️

[@olivernielsen3578]

The secret worlds are so great. I wish we had more of them, but we haven't gotten that many ever since the game first came out. It's almost as if making new secret worlds for the game, just isn't a thing anymore.

[@carlotanselmi]

Exactly :( These are from base game, the first game pack and the first expansion pack, they should make more

[@ViceCityExtra]

Ye like why isnt the secret society from a secret world???? Etc

[@guilhermepaulino4841]

I was really disappointed when i realized island living doesn't have one, i spent sm time trying to find it

[@AlinaMauMau]

They did actually announce they were going to stop making them. Basically no one knew they existed and it stopped being worth making. I do wish some packs came with them when it was fitting still.

[@luisinascarafiocca9313]

@@AlinaMauMau oh I didn't know that! But yeah it makes sense I guess

[@fivosfivos5644]

Fun fact: In the Willow Creek's secret world there are tidy fairies flying around! You cannot interact with them, they are just little ''images'' flying around. I find it very cute!

[@Fireberries]

There's even evil red eyes that blink. I didn't realise that till not long ago lmao

[@TheMissileHappy]

The first time I went there, I was playing with headphones and I kept hearing this horror-movie-esque childrens giggle. I couldn't figure out where the sound came from and felt like I was hallucinating, lol. Then I finally saw the fairies xD

[@themostjoyfulcommenter]

AND THERES CREEPY LAUGHING

[@BarbieFromQuar]

All my sims must visit there. Even if only just to fish or take beautiful pictures to hang on their walls. Maybe have a picnic there now that we can with country living. I wonder if you need a picnic table to that or if it's like in sims 3 where you could just sit on the ground?

[@BarbieFromQuar]

@@themostjoyfulcommenter Also magical chimes when a fairy flies close by.

[@crisiscat]

I wonder how many people know that with the scientist career, you get to go to a "Human" party on Sixam?

[@bigjeffery6612]

Wait what how?

[@helin3456]

Is this real!?!! Howw

[@bigjeffery6612]

Please tell us

[@digitalbrinjen3245]

I had no clue. Just looked it up and it's an objective that can pop up with the science career.

[@LuChii13]

i got there once, there was an awesome bar! And I never got invited again even if I went trough the portal :( :( :(

[@flappysquirrel5132]

To clarify, because Kayla was giving so much uncertainty about the rare fish: sylvan glade is home to the Tree Fish, and Forgotten Grotto is home to the Batfish. However: you can also catch both in other places, as I've had the batfish pop up at the pond in Forgotten Hollow.

[@helenlb5]

A bunny in Cottage Living gave me a Tree fish recently!

[@mayamoon9207]

The anglerfish is also exclusive to Forgotten Grotto I believe

[@theunseenseelie3490]

And you can access the Forgotten Grotto not only from the Park, but also from Behind the Landgraab House.

[@ShadoeLandman]

I'm pretty sure all fish are available in multiple places. Most can be fished from the various bodies of water at the park in Oasis Springs, including fish not listed for that location on the wiki. I think when they did an overhaul of fishing a while back, they made it easier to catch various fish and decreased the chances of catching random items like phonographs and showers.

[@onidaaitsubasa4177]

Hmm, makes me wonder what kind of fish is on the alien world.

[@sarahk7415]

New Stanley challenge: How much money can you make in one day in the sims 4? You can do anything you want to make money but you only have 24 hours and at the end of the day you sell all your belongings including: house and items in your inventory, and see what your total is. 😁 Your previous Stanley challenges will help to figure out what makes the most money.

[@julieswan4529]

Painting, dumpster diving and taking pictures >>>

[@katto3142]

I so wanna watch thattttt

[@Emojibones]

@@julieswan4529 I was gonna say it has to be painting.

[@analuizakloss9337]

yess

[@impxrfxction1381]

She could leave all the Stanley’s unpaused all night-

[@shanerasmussen-thor6547]

imagine island living gets updated and we get a secret underwater world where you have to give a high enough fitness or “diving” skill to get into!

[@thatrandomsouthafricangirl4050]

yess

[@onidaaitsubasa4177]

Or you just have to become a mermaid to find it.

[@MiniJeepers]

Alantis

[@vibesfrmataurus8499]

We need to advocate for this

[@sbingham215]

@@onidaaitsubasa4177

[@lillianschlotte6469]

Let’s appreciate that she posts almost every single day!

[@sohyangworld1544]

Lilsimie? More like lil uploadie. Im sorry in drunk..

[@rainatmidnight]

no thanks.. ?

[@sohyangworld1544]

@@rainatmidnight huh? Have a seat please.

[@l0v3lyniaa]

@@sohyangworld1544 bestie you should go lay down and drink some water !

[@RebekahSage]

Seriously I don't understand how she does it, along with all the streaming. I'm convinced there's two of her

[@notshawnorsean]

not technically a secret world since it's a focal point of the pack, but the magical realm is probably my favorite non-neighborhood lot in the sims 4 from an aesthetic standpoint. the EA build itself obviously wasn't great, but the rest of the realm definitely made up for how lackluster glimmerbrook was imo

[@byrnetdown6076]

I would agree if everything wasn't just stage props :( I wanted it all to be functional

[@notshawnorsean]

@@byrnetdown6076 the sims 4 really said "you can look, but you can't touch"

[@fandomaddict505]

I would think glimmerbrook was weird on ourpose except its in the lore that most of the sims there were only recently turned into mages

[@emilygriffith6702]

@@byrnetdown6076 you mean how the entire sims 4 game is now? 😂

[@caitlinweaverr]

i like the “hidden” world in jungle adventure where there’s a big pool on top of the ruins, and the views are so nice :))

[@s1aym30w]

how do u get to it

[@pippinpots1399]

@@s1aym30w cut through the vines at the second door after the waterfall

[@ShadoeLandman]

There's one in Get Together, too.

[@iske1702]

@@ShadoeLandman where?

[@ShadoeLandman]

@@iske1702 You can get invited there for parties or dates, but I don't know where the normal door is. Maybe on the island??

[@luplayssims]

The secret worlds are so pretty, I wish they made it so once your sim has already discovered them, they can travel there using the phone.

[@nymph_x]

You can travel there (at least to Forgotten Grotto and Sylvan Glade) if you are using Spa Day pack. Not only Wellness skill gives you an ability to teleport anywhere in the neighborhood by just clicking on the destination on the ground, it also gives you an ability to meditate, and when your Sim starts floating, you can choose an option to teleport to these worlds as long as you had level 7 of the Wellness skill in the time of your initial visit to that hidden world. I think it's not working with Deep Woods and Sixam tho

[@emilygriffith6702]

I want to live there too

[@wilfygloutonny]

This reminds me of that one expansion we had in Sims 3 were you could travel to several spots, like egypt, and go INSIDE the Piramids. That was such a cool expansion! I remember having so much fun solving the puzzles and going in adventures.

[@mariananarciso7445]

omg yes world adventures is so underrated

[@ms.honeylove]

I loved that pack, too!

[@ohdee8570]

I wish the reward for getting these locations was an achievement that unlocked the area as a residential lot rather than a extremely pretty but empty space that you can't live in without cheats.

[@Prix-cp5qc]

You don’t need testing cheats on to build there

[@emilygriffith6702]

Yes!

[@craftingsimmer7197]

Next do all the “secret lots” and build something on each!! The top of the snowy escape mountain, Sixam world etc. etc.

[@driesbaelen2221]

She already built a castle on the top of the mountain in snowy escape

[@5mile595]

the cave lot can become a challance. have a bunch of sims there staying. saying the world ended and this isn the only good spot. then see how long they can stay alive and when they level something or reach a thing they are allowed to leave

[@antonizajkowski9698]

omg I'm gonna do this

[@5mile595]

@@antonizajkowski9698 do it!! :)

[@antonizajkowski9698]

@@5mile595 I am!!!

[@TheRealSubourbonMermaid]

Awesome idea! Call it The Simpocalypse Challenge.

[@antonizajkowski9698]

Ok guys so the lot is VERY dark and there are some light glitches (when you have anything putside a room, it's just... black. no textures, anything. just black), and the game is running really slow when you attempt to live there... also the lot it 10x15, which is not a lot, and you can't change the lot type, so it's not possible to make it your home or even set the "off the grid" challenge. But all that said, it is REALLY fun. Tomorrow I'll add my home in there in gallery:) It's base-game and above a giant pond. If anyone wants to see it, my ID is nala392013 :) Have a good game guys!

[@yuhhbiscuit]

I love all the secret worlds in the sims I just wish your sims could live in them

[@brtzz2388]

You kinda can by building a house on them

[@yuhhbiscuit]

@@brtzz2388 I know but it would be cool if it were in the base game

[@C.J2547]

would love it if they made a secret world where you could purchase a house with special currency--like in Sims Makin' Magic with magicoins

[@mlegeydo]

@@yuhhbiscuit two first are in the base game….

[@yuhhbiscuit]

@@mlegeydo I know this

[@pietrofattorello]

honestly the sims 4 gets a lot of (usually well deserved) criticism for not having any depth or challenges but these secret worlds are great incentives to actually explore and max out some of those skills

[@gettps]

With Sixam, you go there automatically in the Scientist Career. There's actually a huge alien party there if you wait until the scientist career tells you to go.

[@Fayeluria]

"Sixam.. Yeah. That's Maxis spelled backwards" I.. seriously never realized that. I feel so dumb 😂

[@alyciahall4512]

Honestly same lol

[@allalll1915]

Omg 😶😶

[@starcrafter13terran]

I thought it was named that because they couldn't think of a name and looked at a clock.

[@Jess.Charely.1124]

@@starcrafter13terran love it. i knew but i have been playing it forever.

[@saradm991]

Sameee 😂

[@zofiele]

Kayla, can you built a house in Sixam? I hope so, the world looks amazing

[@nymph_x]

I built an entire underground lab for aliens where they can study about humans there. No aliens that spawn there are going inside though :(

[@zofiele]

@@nymph_x the abandoned lab :((

[@lmn6023]

I build a small space station

[@Prince_Monophobia]

Okay but what if you renovated the hermit's house with the new pack?

[@tiltu5766]

this is SUCH a good idea!!!!

[@IlaMedlin]

I send my painters to Sylvan Glade to paint from life and do pretty series of paintings and photos there.

[@fathiyahk]

i’m glad she always has captions now bc sometimes it’s hard to hear and the auto generated one are usually weird haha

[@ShadoeLandman]

In the Sylvan Glade at night, red eyes will appear from the woods. There are little flying, glowing creatures (are they pixies? I can't remember) appear and laugh creepily during the day. The cave entrance for Forgotten Grotto and the tree for Sylvan Glade are available from the debug menu so you can add them to park lots or your home lot to make it easier to get to any builds you make there. You can also get to Sixam by using the portal that you make in the scientist career. That career has lots of useful gadgets, and some do multiple things. There's also a cave entrance for the grotto off a path in the Landgraab's neighborhood.

[@hicnole]

Ive had Outdoor Retreat and Get To Work for years and never knew about either of these! Thanks for sharing!!

[@wow2926]

Whenever I look up "sims 4 secrets you didn't know about" I'm not looking for secret worlds and grilled cheese aspirations. I recently learned you can ask for loans with high enough charisma. I want more things like that that I should know but don't because I never play a save long enough to get that far

[@vieravarda3630]

Fun fact: if you take a closer look at these little flying lights in Sylvan Glade, you will see that they are miniature fairies who sing / say something from time to time

[@ainsleymchenry-sorber8422]

My friend surprised me with some of your merch for my birthday!

[@jessfidler2356]

Happy birthday

[@Daniel28021991]

Happy Birthday

[@thishappenstobehere]

Happy belated womb exit day!

[@paytonphillips4245]

I think it’s time for Stanley to try and get rich quick by fishing!

[@emerson3669]

For some reason this made me think of some lore. About my sim My sim is a young scientist, she ends up leveling up her skills to get to every *SECRET* realms!

[@scarecrowmax1192]

There's a second entrance in Oasis Springs, it's behind the Landgrab house down the cliff path.

[@rain.742]

her merch promo was so cute I can't- DO YOU LIKE MY SHIRT? DO YOU WANT MY SHIRT?

[@ffionsamuel4279]

Building like a tiny magical cottage in one of these secret worlds would be so perfect for a video!!

[@elenas3571]

I use the glades to get wedding/ proposal photos for my sims all the time! The pink trees are just so pretty!

[@Victor.Hugo-]

The Forgotten Grotto looks a lot like a World of Warcraft location (even the name), I love it!

[@ShishkinaOlga]

You can travel to Sixam by doing scientist career tasks. One of the objects you create is the portal to this world

[@Mikusagi]

1:27 and I already have to pause the video and start my game to check that out! That tree was on like the second lot I played when I started playing the game and even though I interacted with the surroundings a lot, I didn't notice it could get a door!

[@purebritish9589]

Kayla is and has been my biggest expectation for when im older, i would love to be a Sims4 ( Sims5 maybe? ) streamer / youtuber. i honestly would love it since ive always wanted to be a streamer.

[@frauleinloonylove7273]

I'm sad all over again that there was no secret world that came with Forgotten Hollow. That boarded-up cave entrance could've been so *cool*...

[@emmanuellegrooms7106]

I just love lilsimsie so much she always so happy, a bit stressed but aren’t we all, she’s super sweet, thank you for the content 🤗

[@britt_annie]

The Kawaii Stacy Slice of Life mod has an event that spawns randomly in the forgotten grotto. It was my first experience in this world and my sim was invited by a random stranger, curious, i said yes. Shortly after arriving my sim started feeling very uncomfortable and was throwing up everywhere.. I was unable to leave and go home until the event ended. I had a negative buff for 24hrs afterwards that had a story something along the lines of being lured to a weird cult meeting. I was astounded at the attention to detail and the storyline this was able to give my game play. Big props to Kawaii Stacy for using one of these secret worlds in a way that made it interesting and fun! Edit: Also, why doesn't anyone give jungle adventure the attention it deserves! some of the areas you can explore to are incredibly beautiful as well as a little more interesting in terms of emotion buffs they create for your sims! the romantic baths, one of my favourite places to take my sims on honeymoon!

[@matterinthehatter]

This is the kind of content that keeps me inspired! Thanks for doing the hard work for us. 😁

[@Im_Zion]

I absolutely love Slyvan Glade. I used the free build cheat and built my sim a little tower aka a bunch of rooms stacked on each other, she has 1 little pool that she’s literally always in and I gave her a little archway which is just a wedding arch and she has a street painting canvas and a rocket ship building platform where she built her own rocket to travel to Sixam. So for anyone contemplating on building in Slyvan Glade and having your Sim basically live there….do it.

[@nyarix4838]

I have never played the sims in my life, but yet I love watching sims videos. I’ve been like this my whole life. I knew about the sims just never played it? Lol

[@bullshark7888]

Okay so this may not really be a secret area per se, but has anyone else noticed that in Forgotten Hollow (the Vampire world), in the middle of the river, there's a stranded coffin which looks really old. Now, I'm not sure if that coffin can be accessed or it's just for atmosphere or something, but that always fascinated me and I always wanted to find out who's been sleeping or in this case, hibernating in there. Kinda cool

[@KatyListerX]

Sylvan glade is my favourite - in fact it’s the only one I ever bother with, but crick cabana is my favourite starter home so it’s right there 😂

[@jujubampa]

Aaah so that's where the beautiful mushrooms on DEBUG come from: the space!! I play the sims 4 for a long time and I didn't know it existed! And...of course i would never have the patience to wait for that long. And I didn't know we could actually build in these secret spots! I will stop everything in my life and try it. Thank you!

[@justanotheryoutubechannel]

It’s a shame these secret worlds are so well made and yet they’re barely usable for building and doing stuff, it’s so disappointing and if you ask me it’s a great example of the development trouble this game had, I remember reading about how during development they had very few actual gameplay programmers but vast amounts of graphics designers, artists, and effects programmers, so they spent ages animating stuff like cars and boats while making beautiful worlds to visit and live in even though they were lacking housing and had no open world and you couldn’t actually use anything they made, and most of the features that were and still are lacking were due to this lack of staff despite the huge team that made the game.

[@official__zirkon0]

Sylvan Glade is so beautiful, and if you look close enough, you can see fairies and some creepy red eyes hidden in the bushes! That is the thing that make it so cool to me!🏞️🌳💫

[@andirogynous5406]

I'm on a mission to build on every secret lot in the game. I've just started, so I've only done Sylvian Glade, but I built an adorable little witchy tower. I put in everything you need to keep your needs filled, too, so I don't have to worry about that while I'm there anymore.

[@badwolftally2367]

I still feel like you should release a shirt that says, ‘I’m fine. It’s fine.’

[@alyciahall4512]

PLZ ❤

[@laneridao4371]

I love seeing Stanley venturing into new types of videos lately

[@JohnBrown-ly9os]

you can also visit the forgotten hollow from behind the landgrab's house

[@BarbieFromQuar]

I go to those places all the time, I love discovering them. They do NEED to make more, they are NOT a waste. They are so cool. Every world should have one!!!!

[@fairyflossgurlz]

This was so cool to watchl! I've been watching your channel for a while and finally bought sims 4 when it was on sale, I'm learning so much now

[@chlxe3647]

This should be a series. Sims secrets. I'm sold

[@meglie1]

I wish they would still put more secret worlds in the newer packs.

[@Seiferboi]

That cavern world in the base game reminds me of the cavern in the PS2 version of The Sims Castaway! I always make that place into my base of operations because you don't have to worry about the rainstorms, plus it's really spacious, great for when you have six Sims!

[@augmentedkazoo357]

Fun fact, you can get to the Slyvan Glade with the Basemental Drugs. Just call the shaman, and hope you pick the right things after thinking the special juice

[@maetrotter]

The grotto is giving me major MySims nostalgia lol thank you for posting this!!💚

[@marriasnell2852]

Whish the sensitive hoodie came in other colors. I love it but I'm not a pink person lol

[@mj2625]

You can also go to Sixam via the Scientist career. Eventually you build a portal that you can travel to that takes you directly there.

[@Alvocodo]

I would be so interested to see Stanley's stats in the game! He's just like Barbie, he's done everything 😂

[@olyverbean2142]

I've had this game for ages. I paint that tree all the time. How did I not know about ANY of these????

[@crushpisces]

when the sims 4 first released i really thought every single world would have a secret section. oh boy

[@genmiller3598]

thank you to lilsimsie for educating the masses

[@simplybet8104]

I knew you could get to sixam through the scientist career, but not the rocke ship!

[@ellaebert9020]

one of my favorite mods is the fairies vs witches mods, and it makes it so that there are ACTUAL fairies in sylvan glade!

[@alexandria3583]

ive had sims take photos of the crystals in the forgotten grotto and used them as wall art, i usually do the medium sized photo

[@alyssakehoe505]

idk how but you literally make ANYTHING entertaining and i have no choice but to stan

[@nenaperez3395]

Lilsimsie, if you make Stanley 🌭 hotdog merch I would totally LOVE IT.

[@michellemybelle2263]

On pink gen sms really appreciating not so berry for making sims 4 feel like new including finding new areas etc thanks 🙏🏼

[@Arigirl0101]

I've been paying the sims 4 for years and I never knew their were secret worlds other then the alien world but I never knew how too get too it lol

[@rodri1591]

i love how you maked this incredible lot in a small one!! i’m downloading it rn. love ur buildsss

[@hananhrch7303]

Can you make a video where you build in those secret lots, please ? :o

[@jeanabradbury3766]

I love Stanley so much! Would you ever do a let's play with Stanley?

[@rugdealer1729]

Dang I'm early, I love your uploads Kayla!!!!! I can't imagine the effort and preparation to be uploading everyday right now and we all really appreciate it!!!

[@elenas3571]

I’ve only gotten to Sixam though the scientist career! I didn’t know you could use the rocket to get there, I always just used the wormhole generator.

[@PerfectBlox]

To the person reading this, I wish you a wonderful day and hope you stay safe 🥰 Love from a small utuber 💖

[@junerussell6972]

I like them all. I like the Hermit's world for all the things you can collect (especially if you stick around overnight. Poor hermit gets strangers sleeping in his bed.) I do like Sixam, although I usually get there through a wormhole generator that one of my Sims has made. I like the prettiness of the Sylvan Glade. I don't travel to any of them very often though. My Sims are usually too busy with other things to go "traveling" like that.

[@honeyvanity2791]

I would like my sims could live in Slyvan Glade, it's a crime. I wanted a cottage there:(( Also I play in Ps4 so I can't use mods *cry*

[@mandisharp]

I’d love to see you make builds on all the mini lots and rebuild the hermits house!

[@bobyroublard9965]

I've always wanted to live the ermit life in granit falls...in the secret ermit location... :(

[@RaquelAlbaBeauty]

Ok I had NO idea Sixam even existed!! So freaking cool!

[@emilyanne721]

What about in the island pack? There’s a hole in the wall near the waterfall and it asks the same kind of questions but I never get anywhere with it

[@usernames_are_hard_]

I thknk you can't actually go in its just a worm hole if you're successfully and you come out with mermaid kelp i think

[@sophieesharples8279]

Love this kayla totally getting a hoodie love it

[@Charlotte-gf3oc]

Wow I’m early

[@livs9899]

Aaaah I love your energy!!! Thanks again for another amazing video ♥ :')

[@animemicheal]

What!!! I wish there were more! Like a place you could forage and live off the land would be amazing

[@asifloserface]

I knew about the one the pink world in the tree but I didn't know you could edit it! Now I really want to build a little fairy house there!

[@planethoney7707]

I love the way she is so honest that she keeps on doing it wrong and not just redoing it

[@LiyahAa]

This took me so long to find, thank you! All the other youtubers I watched didn't show how to get to it... Finally!!

[@arya8165]

The cave is great for a Fallout/apocalypses bunker RP

[@cutesunnyaegyo]

The ones that came with selvadora were really pretty too!! Especially the cliff omgggg

[@Kualinar]

The Forgotten Grotto was the very first secret world that I found. On the Alien World, you can harvest three unique plants, find the six geodes and some other stuff.

[@may42o43]

I remember working hard when my vampire sims was an astronaut and we went there and grabbed a bunch of souvenirs, i honestly didnt know aboit that place but was fun to discover it. My vamp died though (forgot he was a vamp and exposed to sun)

[@emiiwee]

The hidden worlds are so cute but as soon as you visit a certain spot once it gets mad boring besides Sylvan Glade (for weddings or proposal, shits cute) and Sixam bc aliens and them with broken cc makes it so much better

[@sarah_warner]

New challenge idea: place the interior before the exterior! So furniture before walls, etc.