All Things Buffers!

[@Jonnie8791]

Literally spent the last few days debating if I should put my little black buffer back in the chain. Took it out for a while because I don’t know why honestly lol for a while I didn’t bother whether it was needed or not. Did the good ol’ A/B test - guitar & cable only to amp, and guitar + board to amp. Needless to say, as soon as I heard the difference I couldn’t wait to get that black box linked up to the rest of my board. It sounds great again 🤙🏼🤙🏼

[@gonzalozech]

Man, I've seen this buffer discussion since I started playing guitar and no one ever could explain what the buffers did and where you needed to put them or how many. THANK YOU

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Gonzalo Szechter glad that helped!

[@Mike_Jones68]

Best channel on the tube.. every episode i gain tons of educational information

[@Danthehorse]

The Empress is 510 ohms on its output Mason. The Carl Martin buffer is spot on at 100 ohms output and 1 meg.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The Empress Stereo buffer is 100 ohm, I think I quoted that and didn't check that the mono version was the same. The Carl Martin is also good and is added to our more recent lists of recommended buffers.

[@IgorOctaviano]

I checked the specs on the Carl Martin and the output 1 is actually 600 ohms and the output 2 is 100 ohms. I’m curious if 500 ohms of the empress is really a big deal compared to the high wire.

[@StuartPetillion]

You would be surprised how many times I share this video to people! Most people think "I have a Boss pedal on my board somewhere, so I'm covered, right?"

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing the good word!

[@XxStonedImmaculatexX]

I have a handful of Boss pedals that I usually use on any board and thought the same thing. Although they do help, you still need an actual buffer or two!

[@chrisholmes_90]

The polytune mini supposedly includes the bonafide buffer. For just £9 more you get a free LED display to tell you when your guitar is in tune! Or is there more to this than meets the eye?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It’s fine as an input - you’ll still need an output buffer at the end of the pedalboard

[@ggavalakis]

I took Mason's advice and bought the Mesa Highwire (after a lot of research, figuring, hemming AND hawing). It has changed my life...for the better. My tone has never sounded so perfect. Perfect being identical to plugging into the amp with a 10 ft. cable, only. I have 40+ feet of cable plus pedals. Just go buy it and use it!!! Mason, one nerdy question for you: if you used the BonaFide, you'd plug the guitar into the input (1M ohm) and the output (100 ohms) go to the pedals. At the end of your chain, if you use another BonaFide, would you plug into the "output" (100 ohm) and then have the "input" of the buffer (1M ohm) go to the amp? That's the only way the amp would see 1M ohm, which it wants to see. Right?

[@thesphericalguy9018]

No, a typical guitar signal will typically want to see a 1M Ohm input impedance. Also buffers are one-way circuits so you can’t just reserve an active pedal like that.

[@ggavalakis]

@@thesphericalguy9018 Spherical Guy: I get that. But if you build a pedal board like Mason did in this video, you're good on the input: guitar sees 1M, impedance TO the first pedal is 100 ohm. But on the output, the last pedal sees 1M and the amp sees 100 ohms. That's not right. Or am I missing something?

[@jimlarosa8657]

Here's a seemingly basic question that I never hear addressed directly... If I have a long signal chain (about 20 pedals) with some sensitive germanium fuzzes near the front, should I put a buffer after the fuzzes AND ALSO at the end? There are about a dozen or so pedals after the fuzzes. You seem to imply that the first one isn't necessary when you mention the Fuzz Face.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No buffers before Fuzz. Buffer could work OK after fuzz in some cases but you have to test. Some will not like to hit the input of a buffer on the output of the fuzz. Definitely the buffer at the end of the chain however. It's not that the input buffer isn't necessary with the fuzz face, it will just destroy the sound of the fuzz face if you put a buffer before it because of the high impedance nature of the pedal and it wanting to see passive guitar pickups to behave the way we're used to hearing it.

[@UsTheMusicTVOfficial]

Thanks for explaining this! I always wondered what the heck these things do. Might need to add this to my rig at some point :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

🥰🥰🥰

[@OHBU]

What do you think about Truetone Puretone Buffer? (Input Impedance: 1M., Output Impedance:

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Good an on our recommended list.

[@davidsovik]

I am using an A/B/Y switch first in line to manage two guitars without unplugging all the time. What do you suggest for that?

[@beniosue]

At home, I'm too lazy using my pedalboard. So my signal chain is guitar > 25 feet cable > amp. Do buffer still give benefit to my guitar tone? Let's say my 25 feet cable is high quality cable. If so, which is the best signal chain? 1. Guitar > patch cable > buffer > 25 feet cable > amp 2. Guitar > 25 feet cable > buffer > patch cable > amp Thanks in advance, doctor!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Any reason in particular you are using such a long cable? Plugging your guitar straight into the amp will give you the most accurate sound. If you were to add in your pedalboard it would be guitar-cable- input buffer- pedals-output buffer- amp.

[@czarofzonk1360]

I use a Line-6 G10 relay (wireless). Obviously, that comes first. What I found is that the wireless G10 is a buffer/boost (OK, that's me talking). In effect, I guess I am posing this as a question. I have no interest is losing my G10 (in other words, I am not going back to cable). I have a 20 foot (maybe 25 foot) guitar cable, and this cable cuts out high frequencies (that's me talking again). The problem with this cable is the micro-phonics. I did an A/B between my G10 and the long instrument cable and I stumbled upon my conclusion that the G10 is a buffer/boost. I guess I'm looking for feedback/thoughts, as I have not heard anyone out there in the youtube signal chain discussion land talking about the G10.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Wireless units are low impedance so that satisfies the need for an input buffer. You'd still need an output buffer however.

[@danielhunsinger8017]

I get having a INPUT Buffer and a OURPUT Buffer BUT what if your using the 4 cable method with a Switcher like the Boss ES-8? Would you use 4 buffers in this setup? INPUT SEND RETURN and the FRONT OF AMP? Each one of these cables are 15 feet long so I would assume this would be ideal, who care about how much this would cost, I want to know if this is overkill or ideal. Your videos are great, thank you so much.

[@waynegram8907]

What is the difference between a cable buffer compared to buffer circuits inside guitar pedals like the EP3 echoplex has an internal buffer, univibe has an internal buffer, tube screamer has a buffer, Boss CE-1 has a buffer. The internal buffers circuits are turned on while the guitar pedal is turned off. The internal buffer circuit in these pedals will roll off the high frequencies I have noticed but they also change the frequency response like it has a preset EQ curve. Not all buffer circuits are like these types of internal buffers inside guitar pedals so they call them buffers also which gets confusing because other types of buffers are for cable length buffers that are Colorless buffers. When using a wah pedal and playing a boss CE-1, univibe, Echoplex, tubescreamer pedal turned off just using the internal buffer circuit it makes the wah pedal sound more liquid which this doesn't happen if you use a normal colorless buffer circuit. I'm not sure what makes these internal buffers inside guitar pedals differ compared using cable buffers/colorless buffers. SRV wah was before his tubescreamer so the buffer circuit was still turned on while the pedal was turned off so his wah sounded liquid because of the buffer circuit rounded off the signal, Hendrix used a univibe turned off the univibe buffer would make his wah sound liquid because of the internal buffer of the univibe, Yngwie uses a Boss DC-10 or DC-20 and uses the internal buffer which his wah sounds very liquid, John Frusciante uses a boss CE-1 internal buffer to make his wah sound very liquid. Normal cable buffers won't do this any reasons why?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What is a cable buffer? Like an active pre-amp that buffers before the input cable? I'm having trouble following your comment on what you're asking about.

[@waynegram8907]

@@VertexEffectsInc There are different types of buffer circuits. There are buffer circuits that are made to be colorless not altering the frequency response of the audio signal which are for guitar cables. There are buffer circuits to match the impedances like what roger mayer did in Hendrix wah to match the impedance of the fuzz face input impedance with the output impedance of the wah so you can put the wah before the fuzz face. There are buffer circuits like in the CE-1, univibe, tube screamer, etc that alter the frequency response and have a preset frequency band so when you use a wah pedal before those types of pedals it doesn't load down the wah pots range put it alters the frequency response because of the buffer so it makes the wah sound liquidy

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@waynegram8907 yes, there are different buffers types. By definition, they should be colorless, one to one - however this is rare, in particular when you have any amount of capacitance on the output. When you're dealing with impedance sensitive devices, like a fuzz, and want to use a wah - the buffer on the output of the wah is one way to do it, but is a compromise to the wah and a compromise to the fuzz. I prefer just putting the wah after the fuzz, problem solved.

[@jeremiahstraker1523]

Kia ora from Aotearoa NZ. Mason & Vertex Effects I play a open back baffled banjo fitted out with a piezo pickup (placed just under the bridge). Through trial and error with pedals and amps I have come away with a pretty standard tone that I am pleased with. Like all of use I am forever tinkering. As a base line if you subtracted the Rickenbacker from the diagram and inserted an acoustic instrument with a piezo how would your demonstration change if any? Much appreciation and gratitude for your teachings. Wopila. J.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you have a active pickup in the guitar to drive any of the pickups, you won't need an input buffer, but it's just passive, like a standard Piezo, you will still need a buffer just the same.

[@joshfirlotte]

This was very informative, thank you! Just one question. So if I run a compressor first in stage that is always on, it’s basically pointless to put a buffer before it? I generally have around eight pedals total with an average of four on constantly. Last pedal is a bigsky. I have a single buffer, it would be best right at the end then probably?

[@waynegram8907]

Jerry Garcia used an alembic preamp buffer low impedance output which envelope filters open and close differently and so does his colorsound wah pedal would react differently Jerry Garcia said because the buffers output impedance was low impedance output so the envelope filter pedals would open and close at different points. Try making a video lesson about this

[@Agent36]

Again this video is great. And more concise. I’m chasing buffers tonight.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Glad it was helpful!

[@kreggonzales9515]

Great video! I have one question though. What if I'm going direct from the pedalboard to the mixer through a cabinet simulator (cabzeus), would I still need a buffer on the output? Thanks!

[@eudymaverickmentor]

Maybe a silly question, however, do you need a buffer on an amps effects loop?

[@ImYourOverlord]

A musician and amp maker friend of mine claims that it's unnecessary to place a buffer at the end of the chain of effects, but I appreciate the idea behind it. His reason was more or less that "Your guitar is the only high impedance device. Once the signal is buffered, it never gets “unbuffered”! So, no reason for two." Apparently, there are opposing views on this issue.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I think your friend doesn't understand the context totally or the variety of impedances of pedals and how they deal with cable capacitance. Once you're on the pedalboard, you're generally converting to low impedance at some point, if not with an input buffer, with any pedal that's turned "on" in the signal path (any pedal "on" is a buffer true bypass or not). However, the line driving ability of any given pedal is not standardized. Some are great, and have low output impedances, 100 ohms or less in some cases, however, more commonly, they can be more like 1K at best, or 100K and higher. For this reason, the output buffer is critical because you don't know the quality of the line driving of any pedal on the board depending on what's "on" and the output impedance of that pedal. Furthermore, the longest cable run, and thereby the most capacitance of any cable length on the rig, is generally the last cable connecting the amp to the pedalboard. Having a poor line driver drive your longest line is unwise if you care about the quality of your signal and the integrity versus the baseline of the guitar plugged into your amp vs. through the pedalboard to the amp.

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc His knowledge of such things may indeed be so limited, especially considering that he's a guitarist who uses few, if any, effects.

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc FWIW, the longest cable in my entire signal chain is the one connecting my guitar to the first pedal. The cable connecting the last pedal to the amp is a bit shorter, but still longer than any cables within the confines of the board(s).

[@rodrigocarvalhodesantanapi2759]

I can use Buffer +, EMPRESS plus only with JACK GUITAR IN and JACK AMP OUT? I not gonna use Loop In and Loop out. Or it´s necessary use those jacks loop?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You need to use the Send/Return on the interface box otherwise you won't have signal. You can just use the guitar and amp connection.

[@oliverseal6462]

What do you thing of the Mesa high wire dual buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Very good and on our recommended list!

[@wisconimike7590]

If I'm going into a fuzz face do I want a buffer right after it? Or just at the end?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer after fuzz and at the end

[@matthewcooke7182]

Best stereo buffer a year later? Or should I use 2 mesa stowaways? Ideally looking for a stereo buffer with boost. Don’t need to use it for my input as I’m using the GLX wireless.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I would say the High Wire plus a Stowaway or our DIY buffers if you feel comfortable to do it yourself.

[@matthewcooke7182]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you! With a high wire and a stowaway, won't I only be able to boost one of my stereo channels?

[@squirelova1815]

Alright Alright Alright, Groovy info for sure. It's like, Buffer the Vampire Slayer. Cool.

[@Blaydrnnnr]

So the Empress Buffer+ can be used as your input AND output buffer? ( through running the chain through the send/return )?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I belive it has an input and output buffer, yes.

[@pskemster]

Great video , Now would the same principle apply if using a wireless as using a cable connection?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, except for the need for the input buffer.

[@flattedsixth4547]

Would a Polytune 3 at the beginning and a Big Sky at the end get the job done? They're both 1-Mohm Input/100-ohm Output

[@VertexEffectsInc]

As long as they're set to the buffered modes, yes!

[@flattedsixth4547]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks! Where would you put the Polytune 3 if I'm using a wah and a fuzz pedal? After those two but before the OD ones?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@flattedsixth4547 after the impedance sensitive stuff, we just put out two signal path videos that I think will help you to this end.

[@rasalapatuski78]

Hello there sir I have 2 TC electronics Bonafide Buffer for input and Output. My question is where do i put my Cab sim ? After my output buffer or Before?. Thanks .

[@soulfulstrum131]

How does the boba fife compare to the Mesa buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Mesa is better and has a dual buffer option but TC is still nice.

[@marc-andredrolet1276]

I’m curious to know your opinion on output buffers specifically using something like the Strymon Iridium, knowing that it’s gonna be used with DIs to house or straight into an audio interface, good or bad idea?

[@JamesMurphyProducer]

So i suppose you would not recommend the new Walrus Canvas Tuner as an input buffer... it has a 1M Ohm input impedence, but a 400 Ohm output impedence.

[@MatthewLim]

what about effects loops ... will you need to run buffers on the sends and returns? Also if you're using a patch bay such as the DIY one you have made (love the vid!) will the buffers still be useful if they're after the patchbay (on the input) or before the patchbay (on the output)

[@Robert-dt3is]

Good question

[@Hamppzah]

Good question about the patchbay! I have a rockboard patchbay (mod 1) and I can't tell if the housing of the outputs are plastic.. next time I have a ground loop I will see if I can get rid of it in the normal way (however all connections starting and ending in patchbay), if not, then I'll try connecting my amp straight from the isolated out.

[@andywilhelm5831]

Still a little confused so as long as you have a quality input and output buffer the signal should be good? Despite having say a few boss pedals(bad buffers) in between? I'm running 8-9 pedals on my rig. Thanks!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally you have high quality input and output buffers with as few buffered pedals in between. A few Boss pedals here and there aren't too problematic.

[@andywilhelm5831]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks again! Appreciate it

[@jeffmclowry]

Your videos are very informative, I really appreciate your efforts.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I appreciate that!

[@__-jd7rn]

Hey Mason, I'm trying to decide between the Empress Buffer+ and the Mesa Highwire. I really like the features in the Empress (mainly the boost and pickup loading options), but am a bit scared off of the 510 ohm output impedance. The Mesa has 150ohm output impedance, which sounds tempting, even without the features of the Empress. What's your take?

[@BombayWizard]

I had the same question...and found another question about the Empress' spec on the output buffer. In fact, the output on the Empress buffer linked is 510 and all of the buffers listed on the Empress site are 510 output, so the info and link is somewhat misleading. Mason answered it this way - It's a bit high for my liking. 100 ohms is ideal, this is about 5x higher than recommended and won't be as stable on the output with greater capacitive loads.

[@bassyey]

But the Empress has 510 Ohms output according to specs, would you still recommend it? I thought you said output should just be around 100.

[@jboot4359]

I know your super busy but thanks for reading this ! If I am using Guitar -> few pedals -> HX Stomp -> Stereo out -> H9 -> Stereo out -> Bigsky -> stereo out to front of house what buffer would you recommend ? I would need mono in buffer to stereo out buffer right?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

probably just an input buffer before your first pedal at the least.

[@johncruz1811]

Why don’t you like the Suhr buffer as a input buffer? I’m currently using the highwire. But, I want to go with two small separate buffers.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It's fine, just with the transformer, I don't find it as valuable on the input. The options makes more sense at the end of the chain.

[@johncruz1811]

Vertex Effects any news on the buffer kits?

[@ImYourOverlord]

So glad I watched this video! I just ordered a JHS Little Black Buffer, which conforms to your input/output specs, but also ordered an Xotic Super Clean Buffer. The Super Clean's output impedance is vastly higher than 100 Ohms! Requesting a refund from the seller and ordering a second Little Black Buffer, so I can place one at the beginning and one at the end of my long chain of effects.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Nice!!! Glad this stream was helpful!

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc Indeed! Now I'm getting the right gear, saving some $, and David at Chicago Music Exchange speaks (writes) highly of you!

[@mikewallace1270]

I just ordered JHS little black buffer as well but I could not find the specs anywhere on their website. Are you sure the specs conform to Mason's recommendations?

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@mikewallace1270 I can't cite the source off the top of my head, but I dug deeply enough to confirm that before ordering the pair I got. I'll try to track down the info.

[@mikewallace1270]

@@ImYourOverlord I confirmed it on their website. It is exactly the specs Mason recommends.

[@christopherdaniel8230]

I’m was using two JHS Little Black Buffers. I put one on the front of my board as the first in the signal chain and the last in my signal chain. I’ve had issues with signal loss until I bypassed both buffers. Not sure what went wrong or why or how to resolve it. Glad you made this video. Thank you Mason.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Do they fall into the spec? 1M input impedance, 80-150 ohms output impedance? Maybe check out my recommendations

[@jsalmons84]

Vertex Effects JHS emailed me directly a while back and told me the little black buffer is 1 Meg input and 100 ohm output. Mine works great!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

justin salmons I tested one a while back, and don’t recall those specs exactly (maybe it was different then). I looked at a few schematics - just now for reference - and although internet schematics aren’t always accurate, it looks more like 733K ohm input impedance, and close to zero output impedance, could be 100 ohms as you stated. The problem here is that it uses a TL072 (on the one I saw and what I see online). If that’s so, the TL0 series has very poor current output and has stability problems driving output capacitance. Normally use is at least 1000 ohms (1k) series output to keep stable under normal conditions. TL0 series are a very poor choice. Also the input biasing is very poor. Again, this is all assuming it’s a TL072.

[@jsalmons84]

Vertex Effects interesting. I actually rehoused mine in my volume pedal to stop tone suck and it worked well. I wired it in line and modded the pedal. I can easily check the op amp in it. I love the TC Bonafide and I’m happy to see you do too. I’m also using the MXR CAE Line Driver and its working great!

[@srdjanslavkovic7016]

@@VertexEffectsInc How do you feel about Fender Level Set Buffer? The specs are - Input: 1M ohm, Output: 1k ohm. Do you think that the output is at 1k Ohm due to TL072 OPA?

[@DolfoMan1000]

You mention the empress buffers but both have an output of 510ohms rather than your prescribed 100. Can you explain?

[@DarkoP9.13]

The specs(from the official site ) on the cheapest empress buffer has 510 Ω on output. Isnt that too much? Im no x-pert at this.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not ideal for the output impedance, but twice as good at 1K (which is what a lot of the cheap buffers are), but not as good as 100 ohms, which is what I recommend.

[@iblesbosuok]

In my opinion, the first buffer should placed as close as possible to the guitar. Electric guitar output is very weak, easily burdened with cable capacitance and easy to get interference. Cable capacitance will reduce the brightness of the sound of the guitar. The longer cables, the greater the capacity and the more reduced brightness of the sound of the guitar. Because it needs a luxurious cable from the guitar to the buffer. The length of the cable must also be limited so as not to burden the guitar output. If the buffer is on the pedalboard, it means that the guitar must drive a relatively long cable, 10ft-20ft. The cable throughout it has potentially harmed the brightness of the guitar sound and vulnerable to interference. If the buffer is placed near the guitar, it only needs a 2ft fancy cable between the guitar to the buffer. System weaknesses will be localized and minimized. The buffer output is more muscular, not burdened with long cable and more immune to interference even though through a long cable (up to 50ft). Unfortunately I can't find slim-closured buffer which can be clipped to guitar strap, so far.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

buffer on a guitar strap?

[@GeoffZalot]

I notice the Truetone Pure Tone Buffer specs are listed as Input - 1M , Output - 50ohms. If I'm understanding, getting below 80ohms on the Output may noticeably roll off highs, is that correct? I realize it's a bit of a judgement call, but was surprised to see a company like Truetone designing a buffer that's out-of-spec, so to speak. Also, do the same guidelines apply to bass or are there other considerations?

[@rickzaida]

Thank you for all your informative videos, very educational & appreciated! You have devoted a lot of time on buffers, which I understand as a priority. However, there is one factor you have never discussed at all... How a wireless impacts the pedalboard for input buffer and tone suck. My understanding is all wireless outputs are buffered, however, as always, not all created equal! I am a bass player over 40 years, and I do not actually use any effects pedals at all. My original setup was an old Samson VHF full diversity wireless system going into a Boss TU-3. Recently got a Shure GLXD-16 system which has an amazing tuner built in, so now that's all I use. I notice a substantial change in my sound for the better. Better frequency response & cleaner articulation of the notes. Can you please do a detailed video on wireless systems and how they impact input buffer as well as tone suck would be appreciated. All the best & thanks again.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We've covered it in some of our videos. Wireless units are your input buffer, but usually I say to still put a separate input buffer for when you got corded or the wireless fails.

[@heyjarrod]

@@VertexEffectsInc I just wanted to double check, when referring to wireless. Are we talking about the inexpensive receiver and transmitter devices, as well as ‘traditional’ wireless systems a lot of professionals use.

[@razifraship]

Nice vid man. My pedal order TU-3 > 535Q > TK999OD (Tube/12v) > Distortion+ > Fullbore Metal > Supro Fuzz. Is that a good pedal order or should I rearrange? Do I need any buffer in front/back? I found that the Fuzz will sound more saturated after buffered TU-3, is that odd? Please advise. Thanks.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I would put the Fuzz first, so Guitar, Fuzz, Wah, Tuner, Fullbore, Distortion +, TK999OD, Amp.

[@razifraship]

@@VertexEffectsInc thanks Dr. This helps a lot…

[@matthewcooke7182]

I know it was mentioned in another video of yours I watched but I can’t find it. Is there a rule for a germanium OD in relation to a buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer after any impedance sensitive pedals like a GE Fuzz.

[@rockyfolksy8639]

How's the buffer on the TC Electronic polytune with the bonafide built in? Is it still the same buffer quality as the bonafide?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I think it's the same from what I've been told.

[@danielicastogarcia4023]

Awesome video! I wonder, when using a wireless system from the guitar to the pedalboard, does it act as an input buffer?. In that case, is it redundant to use both the wireless and a buffer pedal in the beginning of the chain? By the way, is for a passive electric violin, Thanx in advance!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The wireless is all low impedance so no need for the buffer at that point. The only time you'd want a duplicate input buffer is if you were to go cabled in some instances where the wireless wouldn't be able to be the input buffer.

[@marcuslewitzki4610]

But let's say you have 7-8 pedals on your board and 4 of those are Boss pedals. Let's say you have a Boss GE-7 (equalizer) at the very beginning and a Boss RV-6 (reverb) at the very end, both have built-in buffers, would you still recommend stand-alone buffers at the beginning and the end of the board?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The buffer quality is poor in Boss pedals, this is why they're not recommended here.

[@marcuslewitzki4610]

@@VertexEffectsInc What if a buffer has 1MΩ Input impedence and 1KΩ Output impedence? Would that be way off as well?

[@k071400k]

You said the output impedance of the buffer should be around 100 ohms, but Empress ones have about 500 ohms of output impedance. Is it enough with 500?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally the closer to 0 ohms output impedance the better, but reasonably, 150ish is okay, and the further you get away from that the less stable you're going to be with more capacitance on the output of the buffer. Empress isn't the best, but it's better than most. I still like the Mesa Boogie High Wire the best for these sorts of commercially available buffers.

[@davidulloa3863]

Thanks Mason. What if I have 2 buffers and use the effects loop?. The 2nd buffer should be before the amp in? or before return?

[@bastian6755]

Is it possible to put a Buffer pedal in the send/return as the last pedal after the classic chorus, delay and reverb? Or would it be more appropriate to put it as the last pedal after the fuzz and before the preamp without going through the send/return? Thanks in advance for your reply

[@dusty9438]

So I have to DI sometimes for studio work, and i decided to look into the input impedance of the DI boxes I use at the studio, and found that the Radials are usually 220k on the input, whether its the JDI or the J48. Assuming I still want to meet the criteria of 1M to simulate the input of an amp, should i hunt down an active DI box with an input impedance of 1M or would it be okay if i used something like a TC Bonafide Buffer into a passive DI box to see if that improves the neutral tone of the recording for either plugins or reamping? Thanks so much for all you do, Mason, it helps to have someone with some engineering know-how teaching us musicians how to best use the electronics we handle on a daily basis

[@carlossennacheribbo4710]

Hey Mason! Very nice video I really appreciate your content. Im Spanish so forgive my English. I ve been trying to fully understand all this buffer thing and I think I am almost there but I got a few questions... I understand the need of the buffer 1 (beginning of the chain) since the pickups expect to meet 1 M ohm and the pedals work better with low impedances. And I do understand the need of the output pedal since other pedals may not be prepared to carrie the signal during a long cable but... if the pickups are "supposed" to meet 1 M ohm, why do we send a 80 - 150 ohm impedance to the amp? And is it a problem to have on your pedalchain a boss pedal (eq, comp, delay...) or any other pedal that features 1 k ohm output impedance or higher than the 80 - 150 ohm you recommend? Many thanks for al the teachings!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We send the low output impedance to the amp so that the output cable capacitance doesn’t degrade the sound before it makes it back the the amplifier.

[@malcolmclarkson1503]

So, do active pickups only need a buffer at the end of the effects chain, on the way to the amp? Or do they not need a buffer at all?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Active pickups are your input buffer :)

[@malcolmclarkson1503]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the reply! That's good to know.

[@notmuch7701]

This is SO Helpful! Thank you! I’ve spent days learning how to better set up my board. In the old days when I was spending time touring (late 80’s early 90’s) I didn’t use many pedals. Now in my home studio I have fallen into the pedal fun toys camp :). Typically have 8 or 9 on the board at a time - most are true bypass. At least one is not = old ‘83 boss OC2 Octaver. K so question. I’ll add a high quality buffer at start (after the fuzz) and end from your recommended list. With that OC-2 in the mix, does that do anything to undo the goodness of the post fuzz input buffer? Should I pace the input buffer after the Octaver as well? I guess I just don’t know if the boss buffer impacts the remaining pedals? And I’ll dare to ask a second. I do run 2 amps. Currently use the radial twin city - so I think I’ll aim to replace that with something like that empress that can handle the dual outs. Unless That twin city is ok - though it’s not on your approved list. Again super helpful - thanks for all your videos. Im hours deep :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The OC-2 so long as it's after the fuzz, should be fine. The OC-2 doesn't need another buffer after it. If you use a splitter, put the output buffer before the splitter. If you run stereo, you'd need a buffer on each output however. I think the Twin City is a splitter.

[@notmuch7701]

Thank you for the response. And yes the Twin City is a splitter - but it does have a class A FET buffer. Having now learned what I’ve learned from you I now better understand what’s in that device. It has a “drag” feature (a knob) that allows you to adjust the input impedance from 22k to 1meg ohm - so that could work at the 1meg setting. But appears the output impedance is 1000 ohm. So that’s way more than your recommendation. So perhaps I’ll ditch that splitter and go with something like the Lehle P Splitter. Again - thank you - I’ve learned a lot from your videos and now aiming to put that knowledge to use! And I’ll go buy stuff from your store too ;)

[@chipsterb4946]

I’m curious - why wouldn’t a buffer built into a pedal be designed to drive following cables, etc? Put another way, what else would be the purpose of an output buffer in a pedal? I know from direct experience that the buffers in a TS-7 and a DS-1 are bad in terms of tone suck. Turning the buffer of a Tumnus Deluxe on helped a lot with tone suck. It’s early in my signal chain and almost everything else is true bypass.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I can't be certain of the reasons but at the time a lot of the legacy pedals came out in the 70's and 80's there wasn't much intent that they'd be used with 20 other effects in series. The modern pedalboard wasn't part of the thinking. Cable capacitance and driving 5+ pedals on the output and 30+ feet of cable wasn't on their minds. Also many pedal designers weren't engineers, so they didn't really know what they were aiming at spec wise as no standard was determined and in some way still isn't. Boss was the first to really try to do this as inexpensively as possible with JFET input stages and BJT output stages as buffers to condition between the pedals. This is a good cheap way to buffer, but there is a lot of tone suck as you have at minimum two buffers per Boss pedal, so 3 Boss pedal in series is at least 6 buffers. Each one looses a bit of output and raises the noise floor some to, so the more your run through get you a noisier signal with less output. Not ideal. Some pedals have tried to improve upon this, but most are poor and don't meet the 1M input impedance or 100 ohm output. The Klon style buffer - like on the Tumnus is arguably a better buffer than a Boss one, but still not great or transparent compared to what I recommend. The Klon uses a TL072 as the buffer IC, it's not really a "neutral" sound and not designed to drive much on the output without degradation or color on top of the inherent color of the TL0 series chips. They're only stable (even Texas Instruments says this) above 1K on the output even though some guys try to run them down around 100 ohms.

[@chipsterb4946]

@@VertexEffectsInc thanks! I ordered a TrueTone Pure Tone buffer yesterday - expect to hear at least some improvement. Also, I suspect that the DS-1 in the middle of the signal path may be a significant problem. Need to experiment with that in and out of the loop.

[@zoofunkyou]

Is it best practice to have a buffer for your effects loop too? Or is that dangerous for the amp? The Long lines of cable are what makes me ask

[@robertchapan1390]

Was looking at the Empress Buffer +. The output has 510 ohms. Well above the 80 - 150 ohms you're recommending. Thoughts?

[@bassyey]

I see someone has already asked my question. He hasn't answered yet lol.

[@progrocker84]

What about for the studio guitarist? Would a buffer serve any purpose when plugging into a high quality DI (Countryman Type 10) with a short cable? Similarly, would a buffer serve any purpose on a signal coming from a high quality interface (Prism Sound), going into a high quality ReAmp (Signal Electronics), with short cables?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You're not going into an amp, only DI? Typically the impedances of DI and passive pickups aren't ideal for tone in a loading context. Wrong impedance compared to an amp.

[@7HSVekTkSX]

Does the Empress + buffer boost control increase the volume or the guitar signal? Will it help me increase the sound in solos?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It will give you a boost on the output of the buffer.

[@nathankizzia]

Great video! What if you have a boss tu2 at the beginning and a boss loop at the end? Does this do the same thing?

[@johnathandavis6157]

what about Lehle Sunday driver II as an output buffer? I see the output impedence is 220 Ohms on the Lehle and you recommend 80-150 output impedence. How significant is the difference between 150 and 220? What would be the effect?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

That's pretty good, butter than almost all other commercially available buffers. However this is only one output buffer, you would need two of them to really do it properly.

[@johngutierrez591]

Got super hooked on your channel. How woul the buffers react and work with having a couple other TC pedals that are true bypass? Polytune 2 and Flashback delay. Would having buffers at the start and end still be beneficial?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Your TC pedals might have buffers in them already that will work fine if placed first and last. Say the Tuner in the #1 spot with the buffer on as the input buffer and your TC Delay last as the output buffer.

[@johngutierrez591]

@@VertexEffectsInc sweet, I ended up watching all your videos on buffers yesterday ha. Thanks for the reply man!!

[@davidbuzzin426]

👍❤🇺🇲 GREAT DEMO A ALWAYS, THX ........ QUESTIONS : BOSS PH - 3 PHASE PEDAL......DO U HAPPEN 2 KNOW WHAT THE INPUT & OUTPUT JACK ( MEG & OHM ) VALUES ARE ?? 🎸

[@oigorboechat]

The polytune 3 with the buffer on is enough? Planning on solving this two problems at once.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It can be used as the input buffer, but you'll need an output buffer.

[@Austinomical]

Is the Strymon flint a good output buffer? I have heard great things about it. But what happens if I have the pedal on? Then is it not as good as when it's off? Or would it be good both ways?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, watch our video about "Pedal with Great Built In Buffers". It needs to be "on' or in buffered mode to be a quality output buffer however.

[@CanalUHF]

If you had to choose a DIY buffer scheme for a pedalboard patchbox (4CM with 3 buffers -input, output, return-), what would it be? Taking into account the size of the PCB to fit 3 in the box and the quality. I've seen the Creation Audiolabs redeemer in one of your tutorials, but are not easy to get one of these in Europe. Thanks.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It would be the DIY buffer kit we show here on KZbin. The CAL buffers. I see a lot of guys use freight forwarders inexpensively to import them

[@tcw4321]

Do you have any thoughts on the Lehle products? In particular, the Sunday Driver as a buffer and the P-Split III as a splitter at the end of the chain?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Acceptable - there are better ones, but I think it's very good, and certainly better than most out there.

[@tcw4321]

Vertex Effects Thanks for your input.

[@christopherstorrier5560]

Hi Mason, If a low impedence signal is less sensative than a high impedence signal as you say why is there a 12db - 18db pad on active (low impedence) bass amps...i thought an active signal was more sensative ?... cheers

[@joshfowler8360]

havent figured it out yet but i use a page as an always on pedal and probly put a buffer at the end of chain but i usually have my board on top of my amp so ive got an idea of a board that is just a remote switcher all it does is turn on and off the pedals remotely and the board is on top o the amp i can help out with shirts also

[@guidobaldovino]

Hi Mason! Thanks for all your video, i' m nerding so much during this quarantine!! I was checking the Empress+ buffer specs, and it says 510 ohm of output impedance, and it seems to me that this feature goes against your suggestion of keeping it around 100 ohm, so would you actually still suggest the Empress buffer as a good neutral one? The thing is that one would like to ideally have two buffers, like you often say, therefore I am looking around to buy a double one, and empress seems one of the only good quality/price. Thank you so much!!!!!!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I mistakenly looked at the specs of the stereo version, and presume that the mono version would be the same, it looks like it is not. I would look at the Mesa Boogie Highwire as an alternative dual buffer.

[@jamiedavies1305]

Any views on the Nux 5-5RC? It’s wireless but I can’t see any output Impedence rating.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I've not see it.

[@84RT]

where should be the buffer placed if u have long cables in the effect loop?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You want to 1) make sure you have an active effects loop, if you don't check out the Klein-ulator here: www.therigdr.com/collections/buffers to turn your passive loop into an active one. 2) buffer the return.

[@kameel68]

I was looking at the Korg Pitchblack X. Can only find that the input impedance is 1M and they are talking about the "Ultra Buffer". Do you know more about the Pitchblack X? I guess it's not worth it.

[@MattSolahuddin]

i got hx effects into an hx stomp to a passive DI box. i split the signal in hx stomp by using send 1 to send the signal to the backline amp. do I need a buffer??

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you're going DI output, then no. Perhaps on the input buffer you can experiment.

[@MattSolahuddin]

@@VertexEffectsInc i see, imma look into input buffers then. also, is adding volume block and cranking the gain gonna be similar to a buffer pedal??

[@Hamppzah]

Everything you've said makes a lot of sense`, thanks! I'm still curious as to how a 100 ohm output will affect the signal compared to a 500 ohm output?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally 0 ohms on the output is what you're shooting for, but realistically 100 to 150 is pretty darn good. The further you get away from that the more sensitivity you'll have to capacitance on the output and the buffer's ability to drive that capacitance. 500 ohms (depending on the buffer) might be okay for lower capacitance cables and shorter lengths, but it'll be about 5x less effective at driving that same line as a 100 ohm output would.

[@Hamppzah]

@@VertexEffectsInc Brilliant answer. Thank you ever so much for actively responding to everyone! :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@Hamppzah sure thing!

[@Hamppzah]

@@VertexEffectsInc Here's another idea I just got.. for a stereo rig, would it make sense to use two bonafide buffers, one for each L and R output? This would be instead of getting the empress buffer+ (already got one bonafide buffer at the start of the chain)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@Hamppzah yes, you want an output buffer for each of the stereo outputs?

[@aviatheband]

Thanks for the great video, it's very informative!!! I just have a question. I am using my pedalboard with "4 cable method" to my amp. Where should I put the buffers? Please note that I am using a TC Electronic Sentry noise gate with the buffer on connected to input, output, fx send and return.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer first, buffer last, buffer on the return of the fx loop.

[@tonychan9637]

If you have a boss noise suppressor and your cross chain it to mute your fuzz like a swollen pickle.. where do you put your buffer then? Would it be correct to go guitar, spark, noise suppressor send to overdrive and swollen pickle, back to return and then output to line 6 dl4, tc t2 reverb, freeze pedal and then electro harmonix 720 loop. Would this be correct?? Thanks so much

[@guitardeek]

Do you have any advice on using the Xotic Super Clean Buffer at the beginning of my signal chain and which buffer I should put toward the end? I've typically enjoyed having it at the beginning of my chain due to the buffer/ gain control / dip switches, but I'm realizing that the output impedance is 1k ohm, which is higher than what you recommend in the video I'm building a new board that is going to have 12-15 pedals: drives, compressors, a delay, US Dream pedal amp, vibe/chorus/trem, and a Fulltone SupaTrem that I'll use to split to two amps. Hope this is enough info? Let me know if you have questions.

[@samiam3297]

What about the Radial Stage Bug with onboard dragster? For now ill suffer a second one since not recording this rig (for now)...anyhow thank you for your class.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They are workable, I don't know the spec on the output or input impedance. I think the drag control is just a capacitor to simulate longer cables.

[@fakestreamedia5309]

I’ve heard the boogie buffer is good, can you use two of the same ? One in front one at the end of pedal chain ?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The high wire already has two buffer built in. You one need one

[@hiram6760]

thx a lot man very informative 👍

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No problem 👍

[@benlarpar]

2 questions: 1. You mentioned that 'I want' an 80-150 ohms output impedance, but in previous videos you've recommended the Empress Buffer (510 ohms output impedance). Is that a big difference? 2. I got a Keeley Katana (always on) at the beginning of my chain. Does it replace a buffer or is it better to have dedicated buffer instead? Thank you!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Benjamin - yes, that's the ideal range. There are some exceptions. For example some buffers out there use a TL072 OPA - The TL0 series has very poor current output and has stability problems driving output capacitance. Normally use at least 1000 ohms (1k) series output to keep stable under normal conditions. Also the input biasing is very poor. Sometimes you'll see these with output impedances close to zero, but suffer from the above even though they are "technically" in spec. It's sort of a guideline. With respect to the Empress, you're right. I look at the Stereo Empress Buffer, which is the spec I mentioned - but it seems they must have a different buffer in the mono version. I will correct that. As for the Katana, it depends, what the input impedance? 1M might be workable, if it's more like 500K it will load your guitar some.

[@benlarpar]

Vertex Effects thank you very much for your response! And, by my research: yes, the Katana has 1M input impedance.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It should be OK, I just wouldn’t rely on it to drive too long of a line, you’ll definitely want a high-quality output buffer

[@Auen73]

@@VertexEffectsInc Was going to ask the same question before seeing this. Thanks to both for asking & answering about the Empress 510 ohm output.

[@HosseinYaghmaei]

Does Boss NS-2 work as buffer? (im using it for noise) (Put all overdrive/Distortion pedals in ns-2 loop and all effect pedals on amp effects loop) Guitar=>boss NS-2 input boss NS-2 Output=>AMP input

[@jimwake1123]

I assume if I'm using my amp effects loop and using long runs of cable for those in addition to my input/output I would want buffers on the send and return as well would I, so potentially 4 in total?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Only if you have a buffered effects loop, most are not buffer, and those that are rarely are great

[@tuckkendall7982]

Hey Mason, the first 2 pedals on my board are the Boss TU-3 (Chromatic Tuner) and SD-1 (Super Overdrive). Would I place an "Input Buffer" before or after the Boss pedals ?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, they're poor line drivers. If you have to use the TU-3, I'd at least get an output buffer.

[@analogblues9606]

Hi Mason! Any update on the Vertex Buffer kit?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Video went up a few weeks ago!

[@XxStonedImmaculatexX]

What about if you're using effects loop and 4 cables? Does that second buffer go at the end of the fx loop?

[@libracordial]

I have a Boss Tuner at the front of my pedalboard. Is it functioning as a buffer from my guitar? (Also, is the quality of its performance as a buffer anything to be questioning?) I have one other Boss pedal, a Tremolo, in the middle of the pedalboard. Should I still have one at the very end of the chain, before it hits the amp?

[@MK-tj5bf]

Thanks for the video! I understood that 1M ohm input impedance is perfect for the buffer. Would like to clarify if 5M ohm for the Input Impedance would be ok or it’s to much and it does effect the sound? Thanks

[@samlupo2782]

Mason would you need a buffer on your pedal board if the effects loop is already buffered?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The buffer only applies to the send on the effects loop, doesn’t change anything about what’s in front of the amplifiers preamp. Presumably you’d actually need three buffers on the board, input buffer, output buffer all in front of the amp, plus another buffer on the return of the effects loop.

[@samlupo2782]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks Mason!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Sam Lupo 👍👍👍

[@marcuslewitzki4610]

What if the Input is 1mΩ and the output is 1kΩ? Is that also way off?

[@motothumper5598]

what about effects loops. do the same principals and requirements apply?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, watch our effects loop video

[@Mcfly0856]

I know I need a buffer at the end of the chain but what about the buffer on the Boss TU-2 for the input? At what point is a dedicated buffer needed if most/all of the pedals in the chain are true bypass?

[@ggrunau]

I am building my first pedalboard ever, and investing quit a bit in it as an stereo ambient sort of tool ... the last pedal in my chain is a Pigtronics looper. I want to retain the stereo signal into a Boss IR-200 > Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, so what buffer would you recommend I use at the end of the chain after the looper?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Depends on the output impedance of the last pedal driving to your interface.

[@ggrunau]

@@VertexEffectsInc So what is the impedance of the Boss Ir-200 that I mentioned was the last device before the Focusrite 8i6? What would be your buffer suggestion in that scenario?