All Things Buffers!

[@Jonnie8791]

Literally spent the last few days debating if I should put my little black buffer back in the chain. Took it out for a while because I don’t know why honestly lol for a while I didn’t bother whether it was needed or not. Did the good ol’ A/B test - guitar & cable only to amp, and guitar + board to amp. Needless to say, as soon as I heard the difference I couldn’t wait to get that black box linked up to the rest of my board. It sounds great again 🤙🏼🤙🏼

[@gonzalozech]

Man, I've seen this buffer discussion since I started playing guitar and no one ever could explain what the buffers did and where you needed to put them or how many. THANK YOU

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Gonzalo Szechter glad that helped!

[@Mike_Jones68]

Best channel on the tube.. every episode i gain tons of educational information

[@Danthehorse]

The Empress is 510 ohms on its output Mason. The Carl Martin buffer is spot on at 100 ohms output and 1 meg.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The Empress Stereo buffer is 100 ohm, I think I quoted that and didn't check that the mono version was the same. The Carl Martin is also good and is added to our more recent lists of recommended buffers.

[@IgorOctaviano]

I checked the specs on the Carl Martin and the output 1 is actually 600 ohms and the output 2 is 100 ohms. I’m curious if 500 ohms of the empress is really a big deal compared to the high wire.

[@UsTheMusicTVOfficial]

Thanks for explaining this! I always wondered what the heck these things do. Might need to add this to my rig at some point :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

🥰🥰🥰

[@OHBU]

What do you think about Truetone Puretone Buffer? (Input Impedance: 1M., Output Impedance:

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Good an on our recommended list.

[@squirelova1815]

Alright Alright Alright, Groovy info for sure. It's like, Buffer the Vampire Slayer. Cool.

[@Agent36]

Again this video is great. And more concise. I’m chasing buffers tonight.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Glad it was helpful!

[@christopherdaniel8230]

I’m was using two JHS Little Black Buffers. I put one on the front of my board as the first in the signal chain and the last in my signal chain. I’ve had issues with signal loss until I bypassed both buffers. Not sure what went wrong or why or how to resolve it. Glad you made this video. Thank you Mason.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Do they fall into the spec? 1M input impedance, 80-150 ohms output impedance? Maybe check out my recommendations

[@jsalmons84]

Vertex Effects JHS emailed me directly a while back and told me the little black buffer is 1 Meg input and 100 ohm output. Mine works great!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

justin salmons I tested one a while back, and don’t recall those specs exactly (maybe it was different then). I looked at a few schematics - just now for reference - and although internet schematics aren’t always accurate, it looks more like 733K ohm input impedance, and close to zero output impedance, could be 100 ohms as you stated. The problem here is that it uses a TL072 (on the one I saw and what I see online). If that’s so, the TL0 series has very poor current output and has stability problems driving output capacitance. Normally use is at least 1000 ohms (1k) series output to keep stable under normal conditions. TL0 series are a very poor choice. Also the input biasing is very poor. Again, this is all assuming it’s a TL072.

[@jsalmons84]

Vertex Effects interesting. I actually rehoused mine in my volume pedal to stop tone suck and it worked well. I wired it in line and modded the pedal. I can easily check the op amp in it. I love the TC Bonafide and I’m happy to see you do too. I’m also using the MXR CAE Line Driver and its working great!

[@srdjanslavkovic7016]

@@VertexEffectsInc How do you feel about Fender Level Set Buffer? The specs are - Input: 1M ohm, Output: 1k ohm. Do you think that the output is at 1k Ohm due to TL072 OPA?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What buffers are you using? Let us know in the comments below!

[@Markus050995]

Vertex Effects Hi Mason thank you for the video! Are used to use the Empress buffer plus before I saw another video of yours regarding buffer about a week ago Then I bought the high wire because of its output impedance. How come you recommend the Empress buffer when their website States that the output is 510 ohms?

[@michael_caz_nyc]

@@Markus050995 Which one do you like better ( and why ) the Empress Buffer Plus or the Mesa High Wire? - I am torn between these 2. Appreciate any real-world input.

[@Markus050995]

@@michael_caz_nyc To be honest, I didn't compare them. The Empress, felt cheeper, than the Mesa and mostly therefore (and because of this video) I replaced the Empress with the Mesa. I am happy with the Mesa now, but I was also happy with the Empress actually :) To be totally honest I had trouble hearing the big different between having no buffer and then using the Empress (when I tried my first buffer), but then again I use high quality cables and patch cables with 6-7 boutique pedals... I don't know man haha

[@michael_caz_nyc]

@@Markus050995 Thanks. Appreciate the input. We are all on the Quest for: The Perfect Tone ( I'm right there with ya ). I'll probably try the Mesa.

[@arisjohnkare468]

Can the Buffer setting on TC-Electronic’s PolyTune3 mini function as an appropriate input buffer? Thanks for these awesome videos!

[@czarofzonk1360]

I use a Line-6 G10 relay (wireless). Obviously, that comes first. What I found is that the wireless G10 is a buffer/boost (OK, that's me talking). In effect, I guess I am posing this as a question. I have no interest is losing my G10 (in other words, I am not going back to cable). I have a 20 foot (maybe 25 foot) guitar cable, and this cable cuts out high frequencies (that's me talking again). The problem with this cable is the micro-phonics. I did an A/B between my G10 and the long instrument cable and I stumbled upon my conclusion that the G10 is a buffer/boost. I guess I'm looking for feedback/thoughts, as I have not heard anyone out there in the youtube signal chain discussion land talking about the G10.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Wireless units are low impedance so that satisfies the need for an input buffer. You'd still need an output buffer however.

[@aviatheband]

Thanks for the great video, it's very informative!!! I just have a question. I am using my pedalboard with "4 cable method" to my amp. Where should I put the buffers? Please note that I am using a TC Electronic Sentry noise gate with the buffer on connected to input, output, fx send and return.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer first, buffer last, buffer on the return of the fx loop.

[@jeffmclowry]

Your videos are very informative, I really appreciate your efforts.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I appreciate that!

[@chrisholmes_90]

The polytune mini supposedly includes the bonafide buffer. For just £9 more you get a free LED display to tell you when your guitar is in tune! Or is there more to this than meets the eye?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It’s fine as an input - you’ll still need an output buffer at the end of the pedalboard

[@ImYourOverlord]

A musician and amp maker friend of mine claims that it's unnecessary to place a buffer at the end of the chain of effects, but I appreciate the idea behind it. His reason was more or less that "Your guitar is the only high impedance device. Once the signal is buffered, it never gets “unbuffered”! So, no reason for two." Apparently, there are opposing views on this issue.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I think your friend doesn't understand the context totally or the variety of impedances of pedals and how they deal with cable capacitance. Once you're on the pedalboard, you're generally converting to low impedance at some point, if not with an input buffer, with any pedal that's turned "on" in the signal path (any pedal "on" is a buffer true bypass or not). However, the line driving ability of any given pedal is not standardized. Some are great, and have low output impedances, 100 ohms or less in some cases, however, more commonly, they can be more like 1K at best, or 100K and higher. For this reason, the output buffer is critical because you don't know the quality of the line driving of any pedal on the board depending on what's "on" and the output impedance of that pedal. Furthermore, the longest cable run, and thereby the most capacitance of any cable length on the rig, is generally the last cable connecting the amp to the pedalboard. Having a poor line driver drive your longest line is unwise if you care about the quality of your signal and the integrity versus the baseline of the guitar plugged into your amp vs. through the pedalboard to the amp.

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc His knowledge of such things may indeed be so limited, especially considering that he's a guitarist who uses few, if any, effects.

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc FWIW, the longest cable in my entire signal chain is the one connecting my guitar to the first pedal. The cable connecting the last pedal to the amp is a bit shorter, but still longer than any cables within the confines of the board(s).

[@bastian6755]

Is it possible to put a Buffer pedal in the send/return as the last pedal after the classic chorus, delay and reverb? Or would it be more appropriate to put it as the last pedal after the fuzz and before the preamp without going through the send/return? Thanks in advance for your reply

[@ottoplainview]

Here's a seemingly basic question that I never hear addressed directly... If I have a long signal chain (about 20 pedals) with some sensitive germanium fuzzes near the front, should I put a buffer after the fuzzes AND ALSO at the end? There are about a dozen or so pedals after the fuzzes. You seem to imply that the first one isn't necessary when you mention the Fuzz Face.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No buffers before Fuzz. Buffer could work OK after fuzz in some cases but you have to test. Some will not like to hit the input of a buffer on the output of the fuzz. Definitely the buffer at the end of the chain however. It's not that the input buffer isn't necessary with the fuzz face, it will just destroy the sound of the fuzz face if you put a buffer before it because of the high impedance nature of the pedal and it wanting to see passive guitar pickups to behave the way we're used to hearing it.

[@ggavalakis]

I took Mason's advice and bought the Mesa Highwire (after a lot of research, figuring, hemming AND hawing). It has changed my life...for the better. My tone has never sounded so perfect. Perfect being identical to plugging into the amp with a 10 ft. cable, only. I have 40+ feet of cable plus pedals. Just go buy it and use it!!! Mason, one nerdy question for you: if you used the BonaFide, you'd plug the guitar into the input (1M ohm) and the output (100 ohms) go to the pedals. At the end of your chain, if you use another BonaFide, would you plug into the "output" (100 ohm) and then have the "input" of the buffer (1M ohm) go to the amp? That's the only way the amp would see 1M ohm, which it wants to see. Right?

[@thesphericalguy9018]

No, a typical guitar signal will typically want to see a 1M Ohm input impedance. Also buffers are one-way circuits so you can’t just reserve an active pedal like that.

[@ggavalakis]

@@thesphericalguy9018 Spherical Guy: I get that. But if you build a pedal board like Mason did in this video, you're good on the input: guitar sees 1M, impedance TO the first pedal is 100 ohm. But on the output, the last pedal sees 1M and the amp sees 100 ohms. That's not right. Or am I missing something?

[@oliverseal6462]

What do you thing of the Mesa high wire dual buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Very good and on our recommended list!

[@StuartPetillion]

You would be surprised how many times I share this video to people! Most people think "I have a Boss pedal on my board somewhere, so I'm covered, right?"

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing the good word!

[@XxStonedImmaculatexX]

I have a handful of Boss pedals that I usually use on any board and thought the same thing. Although they do help, you still need an actual buffer or two!

[@waynegram8907]

What is the difference between a cable buffer compared to buffer circuits inside guitar pedals like the EP3 echoplex has an internal buffer, univibe has an internal buffer, tube screamer has a buffer, Boss CE-1 has a buffer. The internal buffers circuits are turned on while the guitar pedal is turned off. The internal buffer circuit in these pedals will roll off the high frequencies I have noticed but they also change the frequency response like it has a preset EQ curve. Not all buffer circuits are like these types of internal buffers inside guitar pedals so they call them buffers also which gets confusing because other types of buffers are for cable length buffers that are Colorless buffers. When using a wah pedal and playing a boss CE-1, univibe, Echoplex, tubescreamer pedal turned off just using the internal buffer circuit it makes the wah pedal sound more liquid which this doesn't happen if you use a normal colorless buffer circuit. I'm not sure what makes these internal buffers inside guitar pedals differ compared using cable buffers/colorless buffers. SRV wah was before his tubescreamer so the buffer circuit was still turned on while the pedal was turned off so his wah sounded liquid because of the buffer circuit rounded off the signal, Hendrix used a univibe turned off the univibe buffer would make his wah sound liquid because of the internal buffer of the univibe, Yngwie uses a Boss DC-10 or DC-20 and uses the internal buffer which his wah sounds very liquid, John Frusciante uses a boss CE-1 internal buffer to make his wah sound very liquid. Normal cable buffers won't do this any reasons why?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What is a cable buffer? Like an active pre-amp that buffers before the input cable? I'm having trouble following your comment on what you're asking about.

[@waynegram8907]

@@VertexEffectsInc There are different types of buffer circuits. There are buffer circuits that are made to be colorless not altering the frequency response of the audio signal which are for guitar cables. There are buffer circuits to match the impedances like what roger mayer did in Hendrix wah to match the impedance of the fuzz face input impedance with the output impedance of the wah so you can put the wah before the fuzz face. There are buffer circuits like in the CE-1, univibe, tube screamer, etc that alter the frequency response and have a preset frequency band so when you use a wah pedal before those types of pedals it doesn't load down the wah pots range put it alters the frequency response because of the buffer so it makes the wah sound liquidy

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@waynegram8907 yes, there are different buffers types. By definition, they should be colorless, one to one - however this is rare, in particular when you have any amount of capacitance on the output. When you're dealing with impedance sensitive devices, like a fuzz, and want to use a wah - the buffer on the output of the wah is one way to do it, but is a compromise to the wah and a compromise to the fuzz. I prefer just putting the wah after the fuzz, problem solved.

[@flattedsixth4547]

Would a Polytune 3 at the beginning and a Big Sky at the end get the job done? They're both 1-Mohm Input/100-ohm Output

[@VertexEffectsInc]

As long as they're set to the buffered modes, yes!

[@flattedsixth4547]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks! Where would you put the Polytune 3 if I'm using a wah and a fuzz pedal? After those two but before the OD ones?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@flattedsixth4547 after the impedance sensitive stuff, we just put out two signal path videos that I think will help you to this end.

[@hiram6760]

thx a lot man very informative 👍

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No problem 👍

[@ImYourOverlord]

So glad I watched this video! I just ordered a JHS Little Black Buffer, which conforms to your input/output specs, but also ordered an Xotic Super Clean Buffer. The Super Clean's output impedance is vastly higher than 100 Ohms! Requesting a refund from the seller and ordering a second Little Black Buffer, so I can place one at the beginning and one at the end of my long chain of effects.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Nice!!! Glad this stream was helpful!

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@VertexEffectsInc Indeed! Now I'm getting the right gear, saving some $, and David at Chicago Music Exchange speaks (writes) highly of you!

[@mikewallace1270]

I just ordered JHS little black buffer as well but I could not find the specs anywhere on their website. Are you sure the specs conform to Mason's recommendations?

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@mikewallace1270 I can't cite the source off the top of my head, but I dug deeply enough to confirm that before ordering the pair I got. I'll try to track down the info.

[@mikewallace1270]

@@ImYourOverlord I confirmed it on their website. It is exactly the specs Mason recommends.

[@peterellwood2103]

Fantastic video thank you, very informative!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Anytime! Let us know if you have any additional questions!

[@beniosue]

At home, I'm too lazy using my pedalboard. So my signal chain is guitar > 25 feet cable > amp. Do buffer still give benefit to my guitar tone? Let's say my 25 feet cable is high quality cable. If so, which is the best signal chain? 1. Guitar > patch cable > buffer > 25 feet cable > amp 2. Guitar > 25 feet cable > buffer > patch cable > amp Thanks in advance, doctor!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Any reason in particular you are using such a long cable? Plugging your guitar straight into the amp will give you the most accurate sound. If you were to add in your pedalboard it would be guitar-cable- input buffer- pedals-output buffer- amp.

[@waynegram8907]

Jerry Garcia used an alembic preamp buffer low impedance output which envelope filters open and close differently and so does his colorsound wah pedal would react differently Jerry Garcia said because the buffers output impedance was low impedance output so the envelope filter pedals would open and close at different points. Try making a video lesson about this

[@wisconimike7590]

If I'm going into a fuzz face do I want a buffer right after it? Or just at the end?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer after fuzz and at the end

[@davidsovik]

I am using an A/B/Y switch first in line to manage two guitars without unplugging all the time. What do you suggest for that?

[@danielhunsinger8017]

I get having a INPUT Buffer and a OURPUT Buffer BUT what if your using the 4 cable method with a Switcher like the Boss ES-8? Would you use 4 buffers in this setup? INPUT SEND RETURN and the FRONT OF AMP? Each one of these cables are 15 feet long so I would assume this would be ideal, who care about how much this would cost, I want to know if this is overkill or ideal. Your videos are great, thank you so much.

[@rodrigocarvalhodesantanapi2759]

I can use Buffer +, EMPRESS plus only with JACK GUITAR IN and JACK AMP OUT? I not gonna use Loop In and Loop out. Or it´s necessary use those jacks loop?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You need to use the Send/Return on the interface box otherwise you won't have signal. You can just use the guitar and amp connection.

[@eudymaverickmentor]

Maybe a silly question, however, do you need a buffer on an amps effects loop?

[@soulfulstrum131]

How does the boba fife compare to the Mesa buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Mesa is better and has a dual buffer option but TC is still nice.

[@MattSolahuddin]

i got hx effects into an hx stomp to a passive DI box. i split the signal in hx stomp by using send 1 to send the signal to the backline amp. do I need a buffer??

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you're going DI output, then no. Perhaps on the input buffer you can experiment.

[@MattSolahuddin]

@@VertexEffectsInc i see, imma look into input buffers then. also, is adding volume block and cranking the gain gonna be similar to a buffer pedal??

[@jeremiahstraker1523]

Kia ora from Aotearoa NZ. Mason & Vertex Effects I play a open back baffled banjo fitted out with a piezo pickup (placed just under the bridge). Through trial and error with pedals and amps I have come away with a pretty standard tone that I am pleased with. Like all of use I am forever tinkering. As a base line if you subtracted the Rickenbacker from the diagram and inserted an acoustic instrument with a piezo how would your demonstration change if any? Much appreciation and gratitude for your teachings. Wopila. J.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you have a active pickup in the guitar to drive any of the pickups, you won't need an input buffer, but it's just passive, like a standard Piezo, you will still need a buffer just the same.

[@joshfowler8360]

havent figured it out yet but i use a page as an always on pedal and probly put a buffer at the end of chain but i usually have my board on top of my amp so ive got an idea of a board that is just a remote switcher all it does is turn on and off the pedals remotely and the board is on top o the amp i can help out with shirts also

Anyone knows the impedance specs of the TrueTone Pure Tone buffer? Planning to use it as an output buffer. Thanks

[@VertexEffectsInc]

1M input, 50 ohm output. Anything below 150 ohms on the output is good. The closer to 0 the better.

Thank you!!!

[@chipsterb4946]

@ thanks! Hadn’t seen the True Tone buffer - good price point!

[@Blaydrnnnr]

So the Empress Buffer+ can be used as your input AND output buffer? ( through running the chain through the send/return )?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I belive it has an input and output buffer, yes.

[@NWardBand]

I just ordered the Empress Buffer (the cheapest one). I only have 3 pedals running through the chain (wah, and 2 overdrives. The rest are in the FX loop), so should I be alright with just the one buffer for the 2 pedals, or would I need one before and one after?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The empress has two buffers in it, input and output, that should be sufficient for the front of the amplifier. It depends on your effects loop and the last pedal in the loop to determine if and additional buffer is needed.

[@NWardBand]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you! I'm running a tremolo into a chorus into a delay. Reverb is built-in to the amp.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@NWardBand what the output impedance of your last pedal before going back to the fx return?

[@NWardBand]

@@VertexEffectsInc 1KΩ

[@malcolmclarkson1503]

So, do active pickups only need a buffer at the end of the effects chain, on the way to the amp? Or do they not need a buffer at all?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Active pickups are your input buffer :)

[@malcolmclarkson1503]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the reply! That's good to know.

[@matthewcooke7182]

I know it was mentioned in another video of yours I watched but I can’t find it. Is there a rule for a germanium OD in relation to a buffer?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Buffer after any impedance sensitive pedals like a GE Fuzz.

[@matthewcooke7182]

Best stereo buffer a year later? Or should I use 2 mesa stowaways? Ideally looking for a stereo buffer with boost. Don’t need to use it for my input as I’m using the GLX wireless.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I would say the High Wire plus a Stowaway or our DIY buffers if you feel comfortable to do it yourself.

[@matthewcooke7182]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you! With a high wire and a stowaway, won't I only be able to boost one of my stereo channels?

[@joshfirlotte]

This was very informative, thank you! Just one question. So if I run a compressor first in stage that is always on, it’s basically pointless to put a buffer before it? I generally have around eight pedals total with an average of four on constantly. Last pedal is a bigsky. I have a single buffer, it would be best right at the end then probably?

[@pskemster]

Great video , Now would the same principle apply if using a wireless as using a cable connection?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, except for the need for the input buffer.

[@davidbuzzin426]

👍❤🇺🇲 GREAT DEMO A ALWAYS, THX ........ QUESTIONS : BOSS PH - 3 PHASE PEDAL......DO U HAPPEN 2 KNOW WHAT THE INPUT & OUTPUT JACK ( MEG & OHM ) VALUES ARE ?? 🎸

[@Hamppzah]

Everything you've said makes a lot of sense`, thanks! I'm still curious as to how a 100 ohm output will affect the signal compared to a 500 ohm output?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally 0 ohms on the output is what you're shooting for, but realistically 100 to 150 is pretty darn good. The further you get away from that the more sensitivity you'll have to capacitance on the output and the buffer's ability to drive that capacitance. 500 ohms (depending on the buffer) might be okay for lower capacitance cables and shorter lengths, but it'll be about 5x less effective at driving that same line as a 100 ohm output would.

[@Hamppzah]

@@VertexEffectsInc Brilliant answer. Thank you ever so much for actively responding to everyone! :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@Hamppzah sure thing!

[@Hamppzah]

@@VertexEffectsInc Here's another idea I just got.. for a stereo rig, would it make sense to use two bonafide buffers, one for each L and R output? This would be instead of getting the empress buffer+ (already got one bonafide buffer at the start of the chain)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@Hamppzah yes, you want an output buffer for each of the stereo outputs?

[@MatthewLim]

what about effects loops ... will you need to run buffers on the sends and returns? Also if you're using a patch bay such as the DIY one you have made (love the vid!) will the buffers still be useful if they're after the patchbay (on the input) or before the patchbay (on the output)

[@Robert-dt3is]

Good question

[@Hamppzah]

Good question about the patchbay! I have a rockboard patchbay (mod 1) and I can't tell if the housing of the outputs are plastic.. next time I have a ground loop I will see if I can get rid of it in the normal way (however all connections starting and ending in patchbay), if not, then I'll try connecting my amp straight from the isolated out.

[@84RT]

where should be the buffer placed if u have long cables in the effect loop?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You want to 1) make sure you have an active effects loop, if you don't check out the Klein-ulator here: www.therigdr.com/collections/buffers to turn your passive loop into an active one. 2) buffer the return.

[@DarkoP9.13]

The specs(from the official site ) on the cheapest empress buffer has 510 Ω on output. Isnt that too much? Im no x-pert at this.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not ideal for the output impedance, but twice as good at 1K (which is what a lot of the cheap buffers are), but not as good as 100 ohms, which is what I recommend.

[@aaron9142]

What about some pedals going to front of amp and some going through fx loop? Does that mean you should have four buffers?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You would still have input and output buffer like usual. Then only one buffer for the loop on the Return.

[@aaron9142]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you. Love the channel.

[@aaron9142]

@@VertexEffectsInc Should have asked this before, but where exactly does the buffer go in terms of the effects loop? Where in the "return" chain?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@aaron9142 last before going back to the return of the fx loop, just like the output buffer before the input of the amp.

[@aaron9142]

@@VertexEffectsInc I absolutely love how you guys answer your fans. Not all "KZbinrs" do that. You guys are great.

[@andywilhelm5831]

Still a little confused so as long as you have a quality input and output buffer the signal should be good? Despite having say a few boss pedals(bad buffers) in between? I'm running 8-9 pedals on my rig. Thanks!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally you have high quality input and output buffers with as few buffered pedals in between. A few Boss pedals here and there aren't too problematic.

[@andywilhelm5831]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks again! Appreciate it

[@nathankizzia]

Great video! What if you have a boss tu2 at the beginning and a boss loop at the end? Does this do the same thing?

[@samlupo2782]

Mason would you need a buffer on your pedal board if the effects loop is already buffered?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The buffer only applies to the send on the effects loop, doesn’t change anything about what’s in front of the amplifiers preamp. Presumably you’d actually need three buffers on the board, input buffer, output buffer all in front of the amp, plus another buffer on the return of the effects loop.

[@samlupo2782]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks Mason!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Sam Lupo 👍👍👍

[@rasalapatuski78]

Hello there sir I have 2 TC electronics Bonafide Buffer for input and Output. My question is where do i put my Cab sim ? After my output buffer or Before?. Thanks .

[@XxStonedImmaculatexX]

What about if you're using effects loop and 4 cables? Does that second buffer go at the end of the fx loop?

[@kreggonzales9515]

Great video! I have one question though. What if I'm going direct from the pedalboard to the mixer through a cabinet simulator (cabzeus), would I still need a buffer on the output? Thanks!

[@davidulloa3863]

Thanks Mason. What if I have 2 buffers and use the effects loop?. The 2nd buffer should be before the amp in? or before return?

[@JamesMurphyProducer]

So i suppose you would not recommend the new Walrus Canvas Tuner as an input buffer... it has a 1M Ohm input impedence, but a 400 Ohm output impedence.

[@rockyfolksy8639]

How's the buffer on the TC Electronic polytune with the bonafide built in? Is it still the same buffer quality as the bonafide?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I think it's the same from what I've been told.

[@7HSVekTkSX]

Does the Empress + buffer boost control increase the volume or the guitar signal? Will it help me increase the sound in solos?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It will give you a boost on the output of the buffer.

[@jamiedavies1305]

Any views on the Nux 5-5RC? It’s wireless but I can’t see any output Impedence rating.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I've not see it.

[@sqlb3rn]

Anyone know if you use the amp's FX loop do you need a buffer between the FX send and pedalboard? The Mesa Mark V has a "send level" on the FX send so I would guess that doesn't need one... but not sure about other amps like the 6505+ or EVH 5150 III that do not have an adjustable send level.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you have a buffered loop already, you would only need a buffer on the return (from the last pedal in the loop driving back to the amp).

[@bmwm3cs]

Would the input impedance of the "end of pedal chain" buffer matter?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

not to the degree it does on the input. The output impedance is more critical.

[@marc-andredrolet1276]

I’m curious to know your opinion on output buffers specifically using something like the Strymon Iridium, knowing that it’s gonna be used with DIs to house or straight into an audio interface, good or bad idea?

[@tonychan9637]

If you have a boss noise suppressor and your cross chain it to mute your fuzz like a swollen pickle.. where do you put your buffer then? Would it be correct to go guitar, spark, noise suppressor send to overdrive and swollen pickle, back to return and then output to line 6 dl4, tc t2 reverb, freeze pedal and then electro harmonix 720 loop. Would this be correct?? Thanks so much

[@motothumper5598]

what about effects loops. do the same principals and requirements apply?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, watch our effects loop video

[@DolfoMan1000]

You mention the empress buffers but both have an output of 510ohms rather than your prescribed 100. Can you explain?

[@chipsterb4946]

I’m curious - why wouldn’t a buffer built into a pedal be designed to drive following cables, etc? Put another way, what else would be the purpose of an output buffer in a pedal? I know from direct experience that the buffers in a TS-7 and a DS-1 are bad in terms of tone suck. Turning the buffer of a Tumnus Deluxe on helped a lot with tone suck. It’s early in my signal chain and almost everything else is true bypass.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I can't be certain of the reasons but at the time a lot of the legacy pedals came out in the 70's and 80's there wasn't much intent that they'd be used with 20 other effects in series. The modern pedalboard wasn't part of the thinking. Cable capacitance and driving 5+ pedals on the output and 30+ feet of cable wasn't on their minds. Also many pedal designers weren't engineers, so they didn't really know what they were aiming at spec wise as no standard was determined and in some way still isn't. Boss was the first to really try to do this as inexpensively as possible with JFET input stages and BJT output stages as buffers to condition between the pedals. This is a good cheap way to buffer, but there is a lot of tone suck as you have at minimum two buffers per Boss pedal, so 3 Boss pedal in series is at least 6 buffers. Each one looses a bit of output and raises the noise floor some to, so the more your run through get you a noisier signal with less output. Not ideal. Some pedals have tried to improve upon this, but most are poor and don't meet the 1M input impedance or 100 ohm output. The Klon style buffer - like on the Tumnus is arguably a better buffer than a Boss one, but still not great or transparent compared to what I recommend. The Klon uses a TL072 as the buffer IC, it's not really a "neutral" sound and not designed to drive much on the output without degradation or color on top of the inherent color of the TL0 series chips. They're only stable (even Texas Instruments says this) above 1K on the output even though some guys try to run them down around 100 ohms.

[@chipsterb4946]

@@VertexEffectsInc thanks! I ordered a TrueTone Pure Tone buffer yesterday - expect to hear at least some improvement. Also, I suspect that the DS-1 in the middle of the signal path may be a significant problem. Need to experiment with that in and out of the loop.

[@johnathandavis6157]

what about Lehle Sunday driver II as an output buffer? I see the output impedence is 220 Ohms on the Lehle and you recommend 80-150 output impedence. How significant is the difference between 150 and 220? What would be the effect?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

That's pretty good, butter than almost all other commercially available buffers. However this is only one output buffer, you would need two of them to really do it properly.

[@kenodysseys]

I forgot to add. Mogami platinum instrument cable 12’ 10’ Mogami gold back to amp from board. This isn’t a tone sick issue. It’s a slight hissssssss added when going through the pedal board versus plugged straight to amp. Thank you in advanced for any help.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Likely the result of the pedals in series and there being no real quality standards for pedal or noise floor standards, or buffer standards for that matter. If you run through a few Boss pedals you'll raise your noise floor and reduce your output a significant amount. What pedals are you running?

[@kenodysseys]

Vertex Effects morning, in this order. Guitar - decimator G string Guitar in. Then in the decimator loop decimator out Orange Kongpressor “buffered bipassed pedal” TS9 “buffered bipassed pedal” Boss BD2 buffered bipassed pedal” T. rex Bloody Mary distortion buffered bipassed pedal” Big muff green Russian pie reissue “not a buffered bipassed pedal” Back into the decimator in. Then decimator out to Carbon copy deluxe “not a buffered bipassed pedal” Boss DD7 Then to amp in. Basically I ran the compressor, over drives, distortions through the decimator loop then out to amp running the delays outside the loop so their not affected or cut off by the noise suppression. Also too I found out the decimator g string is not a buffered bipassed pedal” Do you think a poly tune 3 at the very front “tuner/bonafide buffer in the front and a bonafide buffer at the end before amp would solve this? Thank you very much!!! Can’t wait to get my steel string in by the way. 😎😎

[@jimwake1123]

I assume if I'm using my amp effects loop and using long runs of cable for those in addition to my input/output I would want buffers on the send and return as well would I, so potentially 4 in total?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Only if you have a buffered effects loop, most are not buffer, and those that are rarely are great

[@oigorboechat]

The polytune 3 with the buffer on is enough? Planning on solving this two problems at once.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It can be used as the input buffer, but you'll need an output buffer.

[@rickzaida]

Thank you for all your informative videos, very educational & appreciated! You have devoted a lot of time on buffers, which I understand as a priority. However, there is one factor you have never discussed at all... How a wireless impacts the pedalboard for input buffer and tone suck. My understanding is all wireless outputs are buffered, however, as always, not all created equal! I am a bass player over 40 years, and I do not actually use any effects pedals at all. My original setup was an old Samson VHF full diversity wireless system going into a Boss TU-3. Recently got a Shure GLXD-16 system which has an amazing tuner built in, so now that's all I use. I notice a substantial change in my sound for the better. Better frequency response & cleaner articulation of the notes. Can you please do a detailed video on wireless systems and how they impact input buffer as well as tone suck would be appreciated. All the best & thanks again.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We've covered it in some of our videos. Wireless units are your input buffer, but usually I say to still put a separate input buffer for when you got corded or the wireless fails.

[@heyjarrod]

@@VertexEffectsInc I just wanted to double check, when referring to wireless. Are we talking about the inexpensive receiver and transmitter devices, as well as ‘traditional’ wireless systems a lot of professionals use.

[@moonboy9131]

Is the jhs little black buffer a good buffer?

[@benlarpar]

2 questions: 1. You mentioned that 'I want' an 80-150 ohms output impedance, but in previous videos you've recommended the Empress Buffer (510 ohms output impedance). Is that a big difference? 2. I got a Keeley Katana (always on) at the beginning of my chain. Does it replace a buffer or is it better to have dedicated buffer instead? Thank you!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Benjamin - yes, that's the ideal range. There are some exceptions. For example some buffers out there use a TL072 OPA - The TL0 series has very poor current output and has stability problems driving output capacitance. Normally use at least 1000 ohms (1k) series output to keep stable under normal conditions. Also the input biasing is very poor. Sometimes you'll see these with output impedances close to zero, but suffer from the above even though they are "technically" in spec. It's sort of a guideline. With respect to the Empress, you're right. I look at the Stereo Empress Buffer, which is the spec I mentioned - but it seems they must have a different buffer in the mono version. I will correct that. As for the Katana, it depends, what the input impedance? 1M might be workable, if it's more like 500K it will load your guitar some.

[@benlarpar]

Vertex Effects thank you very much for your response! And, by my research: yes, the Katana has 1M input impedance.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It should be OK, I just wouldn’t rely on it to drive too long of a line, you’ll definitely want a high-quality output buffer

[@Auen73]

@@VertexEffectsInc Was going to ask the same question before seeing this. Thanks to both for asking & answering about the Empress 510 ohm output.

[@razifraship]

Nice vid man. My pedal order TU-3 > 535Q > TK999OD (Tube/12v) > Distortion+ > Fullbore Metal > Supro Fuzz. Is that a good pedal order or should I rearrange? Do I need any buffer in front/back? I found that the Fuzz will sound more saturated after buffered TU-3, is that odd? Please advise. Thanks.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I would put the Fuzz first, so Guitar, Fuzz, Wah, Tuner, Fullbore, Distortion +, TK999OD, Amp.

[@razifraship]

@@VertexEffectsInc thanks Dr. This helps a lot…

[@Loopyllu365]

What if you had a switcher? I’ve not got a switcher but I’m upgrading my board and the EHX super switcher says it has a input buffer but no output buffer so would that mean I would only need one at the end

[@johncruz1811]

Why don’t you like the Suhr buffer as a input buffer? I’m currently using the highwire. But, I want to go with two small separate buffers.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It's fine, just with the transformer, I don't find it as valuable on the input. The options makes more sense at the end of the chain.

[@johncruz1811]

Vertex Effects any news on the buffer kits?

[@marcuslewitzki4610]

What if the Input is 1mΩ and the output is 1kΩ? Is that also way off?

[@ggrunau]

I am building my first pedalboard ever, and investing quit a bit in it as an stereo ambient sort of tool ... the last pedal in my chain is a Pigtronics looper. I want to retain the stereo signal into a Boss IR-200 > Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, so what buffer would you recommend I use at the end of the chain after the looper?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Depends on the output impedance of the last pedal driving to your interface.

[@ggrunau]

@@VertexEffectsInc So what is the impedance of the Boss Ir-200 that I mentioned was the last device before the Focusrite 8i6? What would be your buffer suggestion in that scenario?

[@Austinomical]

Is the Strymon flint a good output buffer? I have heard great things about it. But what happens if I have the pedal on? Then is it not as good as when it's off? Or would it be good both ways?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, watch our video about "Pedal with Great Built In Buffers". It needs to be "on' or in buffered mode to be a quality output buffer however.

[@libracordial]

What do you guys think of the Interfacer buffer pedal by Goodwood Audio?

[@__-jd7rn]

Hey Mason, I'm trying to decide between the Empress Buffer+ and the Mesa Highwire. I really like the features in the Empress (mainly the boost and pickup loading options), but am a bit scared off of the 510 ohm output impedance. The Mesa has 150ohm output impedance, which sounds tempting, even without the features of the Empress. What's your take?

[@BombayWizard]

I had the same question...and found another question about the Empress' spec on the output buffer. In fact, the output on the Empress buffer linked is 510 and all of the buffers listed on the Empress site are 510 output, so the info and link is somewhat misleading. Mason answered it this way - It's a bit high for my liking. 100 ohms is ideal, this is about 5x higher than recommended and won't be as stable on the output with greater capacitive loads.

[@rasalapatuski78]

It is okay to have 2 TC Bonafied Buffer ( 1 infront before the tunner and 1 on the last / end of the Chain.)?

[@ChrisCollinsGuitar]

Thanks for the reply! Got one more quick question please? I use an sp compressor as an always on, first in my chain. Input impedence of 1M, output of 10k. Would you still recommend I use an input buffer? (After the compressor I guess?) TIA. Your videos and boost rock!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The output impedance is poor - 100 ohms recommended versus 10,000 ohms, depends on how far it's driving before it his another buffer or another pedal turned on.

[@ChrisCollinsGuitar]

@@VertexEffectsInc After compressor it would just be a very short patch cable to the next pedals in the eco system. Usually a true bypass dirt pedal... then a wampler terraform followed by the vertex boost and ending with a source audio collider. Would it be beneficial to put an empress buffer after my compressor?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@ChrisCollinsGuitar I would focus more on an output buffer at the end rather than the input buffer.

[@ChrisCollinsGuitar]

@@VertexEffectsInc ok! Thanks v much

[@jboot4359]

I know your super busy but thanks for reading this ! If I am using Guitar -> few pedals -> HX Stomp -> Stereo out -> H9 -> Stereo out -> Bigsky -> stereo out to front of house what buffer would you recommend ? I would need mono in buffer to stereo out buffer right?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

probably just an input buffer before your first pedal at the least.

[@henkhenk4357]

I have a Strymon Compadre pedal first in my chain with an input impedance of 1M Ohm. I have the Strymon Iridium last in my chain with an output impedance of 100 Ohm. Given the quality of Strymon pedals and their impedance values, I think it would not be necessary to place dedicated buffer pedals in front and back of my pedalboard. Would this be correct ? Thank you !

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes!

[@bassyey]

But the Empress has 510 Ohms output according to specs, would you still recommend it? I thought you said output should just be around 100.

[@GeoffZalot]

I notice the Truetone Pure Tone Buffer specs are listed as Input - 1M , Output - 50ohms. If I'm understanding, getting below 80ohms on the Output may noticeably roll off highs, is that correct? I realize it's a bit of a judgement call, but was surprised to see a company like Truetone designing a buffer that's out-of-spec, so to speak. Also, do the same guidelines apply to bass or are there other considerations?

[@DanUpLateGamer]

Where should your buffers go if you are running some of your effects through the FX loop of your amp?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you’re lucky, your effects loop will have a buffer on the send, however it’s a low percentage chance that it’s actually really linear and neutral. That withstanding, you would want a buffer on the return going back to the effects loop from the last pedal if you were to do it.

[@DanUpLateGamer]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you so much for the reply. Found your other video where you talk about this very thing after posting my question but I really appreciate the quick response. I love your channel!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

🙏🙏🙏

[@kameel68]

I was looking at the Korg Pitchblack X. Can only find that the input impedance is 1M and they are talking about the "Ultra Buffer". Do you know more about the Pitchblack X? I guess it's not worth it.

[@progrocker84]

What about for the studio guitarist? Would a buffer serve any purpose when plugging into a high quality DI (Countryman Type 10) with a short cable? Similarly, would a buffer serve any purpose on a signal coming from a high quality interface (Prism Sound), going into a high quality ReAmp (Signal Electronics), with short cables?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You're not going into an amp, only DI? Typically the impedances of DI and passive pickups aren't ideal for tone in a loading context. Wrong impedance compared to an amp.

[@k071400k]

You said the output impedance of the buffer should be around 100 ohms, but Empress ones have about 500 ohms of output impedance. Is it enough with 500?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ideally the closer to 0 ohms output impedance the better, but reasonably, 150ish is okay, and the further you get away from that the less stable you're going to be with more capacitance on the output of the buffer. Empress isn't the best, but it's better than most. I still like the Mesa Boogie High Wire the best for these sorts of commercially available buffers.

[@TheMackie055]

I use input buffer and than Keeley compressor always “on” . Does Keeley habpve buffer inside ? Or i need to use one more buffer after the compressor?

[@thesphericalguy9018]

Do you have any problems with your setup?

[@TheMackie055]

No:))But i wanna make my sound better and better

[@billdegroot2087]

Great info thanks

[@algio3041]

Is the fuzz face the only pedal (type) that you shouldn’t have a buffer in front of? For example, some people say that their overdrives get into “fuzz territory” when the gain is turned up....also, if my first pedal or two are buffered bypass, should I place another buffer right after it

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Some old Wahs also don't sound good with a buffer in front of them. Typically pedals that are impedance sensitive are a no-no after a buffer.

[@CanalUHF]

If you had to choose a DIY buffer scheme for a pedalboard patchbox (4CM with 3 buffers -input, output, return-), what would it be? Taking into account the size of the PCB to fit 3 in the box and the quality. I've seen the Creation Audiolabs redeemer in one of your tutorials, but are not easy to get one of these in Europe. Thanks.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It would be the DIY buffer kit we show here on KZbin. The CAL buffers. I see a lot of guys use freight forwarders inexpensively to import them

[@christopherstorrier5560]

Hi Mason, If a low impedence signal is less sensative than a high impedence signal as you say why is there a 12db - 18db pad on active (low impedence) bass amps...i thought an active signal was more sensative ?... cheers

[@michaelpeacestewart]

question so what about runing into the effects loop of my friedman do i need a buffer for that as well? so im quessing i would need 4 buffers? 2 for effects loop and 2 from imput of amp to my pedals to guitar?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Depends on the FX Loop. I think the Friedman as a buffer on the send, you may still need one on the pedalboard on the return after the last pedal in the FX loop to drive the line back to the power amp input.

[@danielicastogarcia4023]

Awesome video! I wonder, when using a wireless system from the guitar to the pedalboard, does it act as an input buffer?. In that case, is it redundant to use both the wireless and a buffer pedal in the beginning of the chain? By the way, is for a passive electric violin, Thanx in advance!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The wireless is all low impedance so no need for the buffer at that point. The only time you'd want a duplicate input buffer is if you were to go cabled in some instances where the wireless wouldn't be able to be the input buffer.