Buffy the Vampire Slayer Talk || s2e14 "Innocence"

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[@jaycievictory8461]

I second what others are saying. The moment of "true happiness" that cost Angel his soul wasn't the sex. Like a comical, crass version of "Buffy gives him a happy". It's because for the first time in hundreds of years of vampirism, sadism, loneliness and misery, Angel experienced a moment of true perfect joy and peace. It's really sad, really :(

[@corvus1970]

Thank you!

[@thalia9789]

I never thought it was the sex that turned him either! Thank you for this comment

[@dajtoad1]

Exactly. It’s not just the sex. If it were simply a matter of having an orgasm then he could have given himself a happy at any time!

[@LeshaAnn]

This reacter is too busy being "funny" to feel anything.

[@russellward4624]

Yes its the Scoobies always presenting it as "If Angel has sex he turns bad" that has colored it that way. Its a shame the writers keep mentioning it like that cause for me it cheapens the whole "moment of true happiness" and boil it down to "sometimes I think of them doing a spell together and then I do a spell by myself".

[@notyouraveragebear9326]

The metaphor here is how someone changes after you add sex to the relationship. He literally changed. Instead of a douche bag he lost his soul and changed into his serial killer vamp self. It’s so relatable and so damn sad and so genius

[@metalmayhem3622]

The girl I lost my virginity to said that this is a thing. "Men change after" I don't think I did. She cheated on me shortly after.

[@ronaldfasshauer4390]

The counter metaphor is why do girls not pick up on the red flags in relationships. They way angel treated his ex's, the way angel treated her male friends, that angel hid so many aspects of his life from buffy, that they conducted the relationship without informing buffys parents etc.

[@charmingjinx9379]

The cost of the curse to reinstate Angel's soul was to remove it if he found happiness. See, the powers that allow the invocation of the curse put that price on it. Jenny's people didn't design the curse that way. I could totally write this stuff.

[@meris8486]

One of my favorite Buffy episodes That scene with Giles and Buffy makes me tear up every time. Giles : It's not over. I-I suppose you know that... He'll come after you... particularly. His profile, uh, well, he... he's likely to strike out at the things that made him the most human. Buffy : You must be so disappointed in me. Giles : No. No. No, I'm not. Buffy : This is all my fault. Giles : No. I don't believe it is. Do you want me to wag my finger at you and tell you that you acted rashly? You did, and I can... I know that you loved him. And he... has proven more than once that he loved you. You couldn't have known what would happen... The coming months a-are gonna- are gonna be hard... I-I suspect on all of us. But... if it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy, I'm-I'm not your man. All you will get from me is, is my support... and my respect.

[@perrimadden6964]

Meris One of my favorite Giles moments from the entire series

[@meris8486]

@@perrimadden6964 Yeah I can't wait till we get to some other moments I love... but I can't talk about them yet :)

[@DaDunge]

Yeah Giles is wrong many times through the series, but I don't think he's ever morally dubious, he may be the only character he never is.

[@SeraphSeph]

I respect giles for this. Angel didn't know it would happen, buffy didn't know it would happen. There was nothing they could have done differently with the knowledge they had so there's no point in being salty about it.

[@DrRockso1987]

I love how Oz told Willow he really likes her but he doesn't want to just make out because it'll get back at Xander. It reminds me of how Willow said no to Xander in 'Prophecy Girl' when he asked Willow to the prom as his backup. Oz and Willow have such great chemistry together.

[@Nicamon]

"I love how Oz told Willow he really likes her but he doesn't want to just make out because it'll get back at Xander."This is 1 of the reasons it's simply *impossible* not to love Oz.🧡

[@TheBigC182]

"This one was written and directed by Joss Whedon...oh no" 😂

[@dlweiss]

Yess, I saw that moment and was like "Oh yaay, she's learning!" XD

[@razycrandomgirl]

That is a fucking mood.

[@blotcho84]

Sarah Michelle Gellar is one of the best criers! I cry when she cries, gets me every time!

[@jaycievictory8461]

Same!!

[@markusklemm4516]

Her and Alyson Hannigan.

[@mlkj13]

Yep. Doesn’t matter how many times I’ve seen an episode, Sarah starts crying and I do too.

[@ProuvaireJean]

Just Alyson Hannigan for me. When she cries, I cry. Here and on HIMYM. It's positively Pavlovian.

[@trufamilybromontqc]

same

[@TimStCroix]

The last time Oz saw a disembodied arm it proved dangerous, so he wisely keeps his distance and lets more experienced people know.

[@hawkflame9584]

So you’re saying that he keeps it at arms length?

[@myeckwaters]

@@hawkflame9584 he's a hands-off kind of person.

[@dutchkel]

After all it's his first Armageddon

[@procrastinator99]

I love everyone here. This is my place. Puntown.

[@gayhotmess3559]

@myeck waters He kept his hands to himself?

[@jesseclark3697]

Angel: "It's what, bells ringing, fireworks..." My brain: "The bell was brilliant don't you dare mock it!"

[@procrastinator99]

**internet high-five**

[@stargazer1682]

When Jenny told Buffy she was sent to "watch you," it's kind of in the broader sense, than being Buffy specifically. Seeing how she's part of the clan that cursed Angel in the first place and what her uncle said in the previous episode; it was more about watching Angel. Angel was their primary concern and would have been Jenny's main objective, but by extension, Buffy become unavoidably entwined, due to her relationship with Angel. Jenny follows up "I was sent to watch you," with "They told me to keep you and Angel apart. They never told me what would happen. " Members of her people knew Angel's pain was lessening, which is why they sent an emissary to investigate. The curse was meant for Angel's pain to be eternal, as their's was for the loss of the woman Angel took from them. Angel's relationship with Buffy was something they never expected; she allowed him to feel like someone who deserved happiness and when he was with her, in spite of what he had done in the past; and he could forget, however briefly, all the things that were meant to agonize him because of his soul. When that intimacy between them went even further, it was the most complete realization of happiness he's known since being re-ensouled; probably since he died and was turned into a vampire. So while it might have involved a physical act that one might otherwise take for granted, there was an emotional component that ostensibly made it a much more profound experience for Angel (and arguably for Buffy), than just casual sex.

[@donsample1002]

Stargazer1682 Jenny's assignment was to watch Angel, and report back to the family on how he was suffering ('cause it's no good him suffering if they can't watch) she wasn't told about there being any consequences to him _not_ suffering, until after it was too late. I've always figured that Angel always knew who she was, and what she was doing there (he's had a century of practice spotting any Kalderash watchers) Why else would he have targeted Uncle Enyos so quickly?

[@reesebn38]

It wasn't the sex, it was the quiet moment after laying together that gave him true happiness.

[@BlackDerek]

@@reesebn38 Of course he was happy. He's got the girl. He's making friends. His job is going well. Things were going his way.

[@lynnevetter]

You said it!

[@bailey312]

"this girl cannot catch a break" should be the tagline for the entire show

[@DaDunge]

It's not just Buffy though all the scoobies have similar problems.

[@adamgannaway]

Alley: “This was written and directed by Joss Whedon? Oh no!” Me: How quickly you learn! And I was actually wondering if the cat bell would continue after this episode. I got my answer. And it was perfect!

[@michaelstanley5575]

So funny. When I see Joss Whedon's name, I think, "Oh yeah!"

[@full0grace988]

Written and directed by Joss Whedon. You: Oh no! Me: She's catching on🤣

[@lyannastark628]

She's a quick learner.

[@MarisuSedai]

8:07 “bells ringing...” Omg the show is becoming aware of the memes 😱

[@jayc9345]

OMG I'm dying at you dropping the cat collar in your driveway. RIP kitty bell. Also excellent Willoz song selection.

[@Henrik_Holst]

To be fair though, there have probably never been a larger need for that cat collar than now!

[@Aysha3338]

Jay C that part made he laugh so hard 😂

[@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024]

"Why would they make a curse like that???" It is not justice we serve...it is vengeance XD

[@DaDunge]

"To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another. Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills. " I loved that, our society is so obsessed with proportional retribution, I think that this idea coming to us roaring in from the dawn of time, or disproportional retribution, of absolute vengeance is very interesting.

[@lessismore8533]

The cursed Angelus to punish him. Sadly, the good Angel is also affected..

[@justyogaaustralia8632]

David Boreanaz finally has some scenes he can sink his teeth into (100% pun intended). He has proven that he is really good at looking brooding and handsome, and also sometimes looking confused and handsome, but he hasn't had much to work with in terms of acting. I love to hate Angelus, and he gives Spike a run for his money in terms of snarky attitude.

[@DaDunge]

Yeah Angellus is a far superior character to Angel-

[@faithlesshound5621]

He has two facial expressions. A wide dramatic range!

[@meris8486]

Angelus is one of the best villains, such a bastard but with this smirking charm. He challenges Buffy on an emotional level, I really bought how broken up she was over it all, and then it's all the more satisfying when she kicks his ass.

[@toshomni9478]

@@DaDunge I disagree because Angelus would never dance or sing.

[@Nicamon]

I agree on everything except the"I love to hate Angelus"part.Angelus just annoys me and I can't wait to get rid of him and to have my Angel back.🖤

[@WhySoAwkward]

Lol don't crucify me but I really don't think Xander did anything wrong here! I can understand Willow being upset that he didn't tell them about him and Cordelia, but I really don't think it was fair for her to pull the "you'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me" thing when they both know she has explicitly heard him say he only thinks of her as a friend. I don't think that's mental gymnastics, he's not obligated to like anyone and he's allowed to like who he wants to like. Obviously Willow is allowed to like who she wants to like too, so if she can't help but like Xander it is what it is, but saying what she said this episode just feels a bit manipulative and guilt-trippy to me. I feel like it's easy to take Willow's side over Xander's here just given their characters as a whole, especially considering Xander pulled a similar guilt trip on Buffy in 1x12, but I just can't side with Willow on this one. I do feel sad for her though, seeing her crush making out with her former bully. Everyone's opinion is valid here, just like Willow and Xander aren't completely right or wrong. At the end of the day, it's just how life is, and that's what I call good television!

[@Carabas72]

Keeping it secret for so long was kind of a wrong thing they did.

[@yesie8375]

Michel De Bruyn I honestly don’t think anyone has any obligating to tell someone who they are seeing if they don’t want to. It keeps others from meddling in your relationship. I understand why a lot of people keep it to themselves.

[@meris8486]

Agreed, Willow acted unreasonably. But that's something I enjoy, characters do unreasonable things, _but they are stuff the character would do_

[@WhySoAwkward]

Meris Totally. From a writing perspective it’s great, I love when I have something to be mad at my favorite characters about lol.

[@meris8486]

@@WhySoAwkward true that, I have moments like that with Xander all the time

[@nikolasmichaelides9444]

The most dreaded words in television history: "Written and directed by Joss Whedon"

[@MorganMalfoy13]

Except with the Avengers movie. That was exciting.

[@TimStCroix]

@@MorganMalfoy13 B-but... *PHIL!*

[@bobhart677]

Joss Whedon and George R.R. Martin walk into a bar. All your friends and family dies.

[@Kayoss13212]

lol. Yep. I think she’s about to figure out Joss Whedons writing formula 🤣😂

[@DaDunge]

@@bobhart677 Except they kill characters very differently. Martin kills for shock value, Whedon believes "Death should never be convenient, neither for the characters not for the plot"

[@TheBloobster]

This reaction was just as chaotic as the episode and i was here for it all

[@naturellebella]

The cat collar bells when Buffy kicks Angel in the balls lol comedy!

[@meris8486]

That had me gigglin

[@toshomni9478]

Always found that scene kind of annoying though. Why doesn't she at least try to capture him instead of just letting him go? He's probably gonna kill a lot people.

[@drageonmusic6421]

I always read angel's moment of happiness as the post coital bliss. The moment of pure contentment laying with the woman he loves. In that moment he was not remorseful he was truly happy.

[@TabbyeLynne]

He spent one second not thinking about his sins, just one moment not feeling guilty and the curse was gone because the curse was meant to make him miserable and if he is not miserable then it's not working so what's the point

[@claranovo787]

exactly :)

[@lurker1316]

Yeah, I love that it's not the climax, but the sleepy afterglow.

[@Michael75579]

Yes, the soul was meant to make him miserable and suffer for all the things he's done. If, instead, it's allowing him to be happy then it's taken away. It's still a stupid curse though; the soul wasn't in the body while the body, controlled by Angelus, was doing all these things and bears no responsibility for them. Its not justice, it's vengeance pure and simple and directed at the wrong person; even if the demon was suffering as well it's not justified.

[@heatherwhite3881]

I mean....fans who've seen both series thru look back at this and say it was the "afterglow" "laying contently next to the one he loves" blah blah....But when the story was conceived and aired, the *sex* was definitely what is supposed to have done it. Nothing deeper than that. It's a teenage, cautionary "no sex before marriage, or face the repercussions" tale. The reason we see it happen after the deed is simple: it was a teenage show on the WB...what were they gonna do? Show the big "O" moment for Angel? They couldn't show the sex scene at all, let alone Angels "moment" of happiness.

[@marialujanortellado3610]

Well, the whole point of Angel having a soul was to make him suffer forever, to make him feel regret for all the terrible things he did, he was not supposed to be happy as a vampire with a soul. Buffy has always been my role model and yet and I can’t hate Angelus, he is just so amazing. I personally love both characters, Angelus and Angel.

[@razycrandomgirl]

The curse is flawed. It doesn't punish the right entity. It just tortures and innocent being and then releases a monster when the soul finds solace. It's pure Joss Whedon. smh

[@quinnsinclair7028]

Welcome to Angel's big dumb curse. I call it that because the ultimate flaw with it is that NO ONE TOLD ANGEL THE FINE PRINT. Angel is a moral being. If you wanted to make sure he kept suffering, tell him if he ever was happy he'd release Angelus. Surefire way to make sure he stays miserable forever. I mean we have five seasons of his own show that prove knowing about the fine print makes him pretty darn miserable.

[@razycrandomgirl]

@Fauxindigo ah. I am of the mind that Angel and Angelus are two separate beings. But I can see how the soul could also be viewed as an affliction on Angelus.

[@WillsonT011]

@@quinnsinclair7028 the gypsies did not care whether or not Angel or Angelus knew the "fine print" of the curse. Even Jenny's Uncle, I believe, said it best, that it's not a about Justice, it's about vengeance. So you want to say it's a dumb curse🤔 Maybe but for the plot and storyline, it makes sense

[@theowinters6314]

"This was written and directed by Joss Whedon? Oh. No." Good, you're learning!

[@Thealin5]

So fun fact. The last episode “Surprise” is the last episode to air on a Monday (January 19 1998). This episode started the Tuesday run of Buffy on WB’s channel, airing the next day (January 20th 1998) as the literal day after episode.

[@chrisrj9871]

All after my 18th

[@davewolf6256]

OK, it's stated explicitly in only one place--this episode--but the key to understanding Angel's character, for as long as he is relevant in the franchise, is said by Giles. Something to keep in mind: "His profile, he's likely to strike out at the things that made him the most human."

[@nostromoh1]

I've always said it. This is the breaking point episode that changed Buffy forever. From "innocence" for me the series went to the major leagues of the TV series of all time. This is a sample of what comes next.

[@TheLokki242]

Rather than try and go on about the curse, its intentions, and its moment of Angel having a truly blissful moment of being loved and trusted be the change rather than the sex, I just wanna say, Xander isn't a bad guy for hooking up with Cordelia and Willow being mad at him is a little silly. I absolutely feel for her, and empathize, but Xander can't force himself to be romantically interested in someone he's not. Her being mad at him for that, while relatable for sure, is ultimately selfish, and I'm glad the squad mostly moves past it very quickly. Willow also never told Xander how she felt, despite even previously telling him in season 1 that he had to do the same with Buffy! Her heart being sore breaks my heart, as it does everyone's, but there's not really a bad guy in this situation. Besides Angelus.

[@krank23]

I understand why Xander didn't, but I think a lot of Willow's disappointment and anger here could have been mitigated by him his opening his big dumb mouth and telling her about the closet smooching. Or at least given her some indication that Cordy was no longer in the "not-even-human evil nemesis" category. I also think while Xander can't help who he becomes romantically interested in, Willow can't help feeling betrayed here. Emotions are lllogical - sometimes silly, often unfair. Especially when the people involved are teenagers - teens aren't always very good at filtering their emotions through their logic. And neither are many adults =)

[@TheLokki242]

Yeah Willow's feelings are also very valid! Though I think Xander didn't tell her as, while the reaction would have been slightly better, I think how she did react indicates why he hesitated to do so. I'm just pointing to why as viewers this isn't something Xander deserves to be in trouble with us for, especially when there's plenty of other reasons for us to be mad at him 99% of the time ;P

[@notyouraveragebear9326]

This same shit happened to Xander in season 1 with his feelings towards Buffy and even while having a kissing buddy with Cordy, he still has the slight hots for Buffy and is uber jealous of her and Angels love. So if he can be that way then I can forgive willow for being upset at Xander right now

[@TheLokki242]

@@notyouraveragebear9326 two wrongs don't make a right, just cause Xander was a lame-o doesn't mean Willow can be without being called out as such too

[@TimStCroix]

@@krank23 Don't forget that it was Cordy who wanted to keep their relationship secret. Xander wanted to go to the surprise party as a couple and she shot him down.

[@TimStCroix]

Joss Whedon said about writing Angelus's treatment of Buffy back at his place that he didn't know where it came from and that it was disturbing he had that in him.

[@davewolf6256]

He also said the same thing about Jubal Early. I kind of think he's in denial about the evil in him.

[@GalahadGregory]

@@davewolf6256 We all have evil in us. if we didn't, then we'd all be angels.

[@davewolf6256]

@@GalahadGregory I didn't say people didn't. And I never said he did whereas anyone else did not. I *did* say he was in denial about his own.

[@heatherwhite3881]

@@davewolf6256 That dude was "cleverly" quoting the Buffyverse, in case you didn't catch that. I don't think he was being super serious with you, he just saw an opportunity for a Joss-line.

[@michaelstanley5575]

@GalahadGregory The first time we see the darkness in us, it's always disturbing. It's hard to believe this was his first time to see it, but maybe it was.

[@laurenfrey873]

Fun fact, the actor who played The Judge also played Luke, the vampire who was the Master’s vessel in Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest. And yeah, when SMG starts to cry, just throw in the towel. You are done, and all you can do is just feel the pain. Maybe you will cry too, maybe you will not, but you will feel the pain. Also, I totally get that this was on the WB at the time, and the movie that was currently being released was Quest for Camelot, but it is kinda hard to take that fight scene seriously when there is a chicken with an axe head in the background.

[@John.Fielding]

That actor, Brian Thompson , has a looong history of roles in genre TV and film. IIRC the first role I personally noted him in was his major role in the single-season show 'Kindred: The Embraced' from '96, so he already had his vampire bona fides down before showing up in Buffy.

[@MrLorenzovanmatterho]

@@John.Fielding Also check him out in Fright Night 2, the X-files and he's the first person we ever see killed by The Terminator.

[@marclewis5505]

Brian Thompson was also Shao Khan in Mortal Kombat Annihilation.

[@QuayNemSorr]

And there it is. And nothing will ever be the same. This for me is the show's "Hook" point. From then on it had me. And it never disappointed. Sure there are going to be the odd one out episodes once in a while but this show just keeps going full throttle. I envy the people that get to see it for the first time.

[@quickwithgames]

3:47 this "Actress" is Sophia Crawford and is in fact the Martial Artist, stuntmen of Sarah Michelle Gellar for Buffy though season 1 to 4

[@SylviusTheMad]

Sarah Michelle Gellar's special power is expressing emotional pain with her facial expressions.

[@iread7]

This episode is so brutal. We effectively see Angel (the character we know and love) die, but he's still technically walking around with the same body, memories, and knowledge as Angelus. Angelus shows a deep cruelty that we haven't seen in the series so far, precisely because he knows Buffy better than any of the previous villains. He knows her vulnerabilities; he knows the young woman, not just the slayer. On the other hand, the juxtaposition we get with Angelus and OZ/Giles is brilliant. Angelus shows us an all-too-familiar scene of a guy throwing a woman away after he gets what he wants from her. Oz, conversely, has enough respect for himself and Willow to want their first kiss to be at the right time, for their relationship to progress in a healthy way. Giles's talk with Buffy at the end of the episode always gets me. The fact that he didn't just comfort Buffy, but emphasized that she has his "respect." It's such a simple word, but it carries so much meaning in this context. Women, young or old, are made to feel judged, degraded, and unworthy of respect for expressing their sexuality in any way. Angelus slut-shames Buffy (obviously to break her down), and she was afraid that Giles would do the same thing (albeit in a parental way). The fact that he tells Buffy that she has his respect lets her know that her sexual encounter with Angel doesn't tarnish her character or make her lesser in any way. Because, obviously, Buffy did nothing wrong. She's a teenager who wanted to be intimate with her boyfriend, someone who had proven he cared deeply for her and could be trusted. Even if this was a more casual sexual encounter, Buffy still wouldn't have done anything wrong (even if it was risky or impulsive). Intimacy carries risks regardless of age or gender. And there was no conceivable way for anyone (other than those responsible for the curse) to know the risk of Angel being happy with anyone. Despite the obviousness of all this, though, Buffy needed to hear from a male parental figure (based on the misogynistic culture we live in and the particular features of this situation) that she isn't a slut, an idiot, or a monster, and that she doesn't have to face the fallout alone. Also, an additional point about Angel. He didn't lose his soul in the midst of having sex with Buffy. He lost it hours later after peacefully laying in bed with someone whom he was truly in love with. The happiness that counteracts the curse isn't superficial; it has to be deep. That's what so tragic and perverse about this situation. If there wasn't a real and deep connection between Buffy and Angel, this couldn't have happened.

[@andurilcuivie]

Good point. This is often overlooked, likely due to the characters trying to figure it out and making inaccurate assumptions. But we actually got to see when the curse broke. It happened after, when he is smiling at the sleeping Buffy.

[@CJPDeQueen]

Beautifully said. 😊

[@jamiehav0k62]

"I really liked party of 5, that was a great show but what i found it lacked was Rocket launchers" - Joss Whedon

[@doomsdayng]

All curses can be lifted - that's a fundamental rule of fairy tails. "The curse could only be lifted if he experienced true love" for example.

[@Aysha3338]

Angel’s curse was lifted because of true love. That’s such a beautiful and sad way to see it

[@andurilcuivie]

Yes! We happening to value this curse, doesn’t negate those classic rules. True Happiness breaks this particular curse☹️.

[@DaDunge]

It's also the plot from Faust, the devil will only be allowed to take Faust's soul if he experience true happiness. But Faust is insatiable and thus the devil can never claim him.

[@tugger]

the curse isn't lifted though.

[@andurilcuivie]

The curse was placed on Angelus.

[@laotasurfs1110]

RIP Cat Bell. :(.. So about the curse: firstly, the Romani who cursed him originally didn't invent the curse, they just used it. Second, it was done to make him suffer, not to make him good or to stop him. It's not justice, it's vengeance. Thirdly -- and this is a weirdy, I know -- the shooting script originally had Angelus go to Jenny's uncle to ask him why the curse was broken, and he replied that if Angel could be perfectly happy after all the evil he'd done, he didn't deserve a human soul. Of course, the real answer is, it's a big old metaphor. He's an angel until you sleep with him.

[@Aysha3338]

Oh I didn’t know that!! That’s a great explanation tho!

[@christinao9061]

I'd never heard about that cut scene before! thanks for sharing

[@gunghoun]

Huh, I figured it was just playing "gypsy magic" straight. It's pretty much always portrayed as being Faustian in nature, where the person using the magic gets what they want for a brief time but then it inevitably turns back on them and leaves them worse off than they started.

[@laotasurfs1110]

@@gunghoun 'Kay, but you just described most magic. When it's done right, there's always a catch and loophole. If it can be done, it can be undone, and everything has a price. But this was a metaphor, so... yeah.

[@thelibertini3757]

The soul is meant to torment him, he shouldn't have any sense of happiness so it was just a fail safe to ensure that he was always miserable. He had true happiness with Buffy because he felt connected and loved by the person he was truly in love with. So it makes sense.

[@barlin07]

RIP CAT BELL :'(

[@edwardthorne9875]

"It's just too real, and I hate it." I have always made the argument that Buffy was just about the most 'real' series that has ever been on TV. It never sugar - coated the truth about things. And... it spoke with humor, suspense, horror, and erotica. Buffy never spoke down to it's audience, never lectured, never was condescending, but had true love for the maturing girls (and boys) that made up most of the audience. The two sequences that still make my eyes well up. The 'What did you expect?' Angelus morning-after treatment is just shattering. Every woman's worst nightmare come true. The other sequence is with Giles. You cut this a little short in the KZbin version. I was expecting Giles to be all 'How could you be so Stupid!' reaction most fathers would give. Instead, we get the understanding and forgiveness that we all so desparately crave from our Loving Father. I have NEVER seen this so beautifully presented. I am just loving your beautiful expressive face and voice, and willingness to emotionally invest in this roller coaster of wtf. By the way, I just ran across a fun interview with James Marsters with James Rosenbaum. (2020). Marsters is as eloquent and sharp-eyed as ever. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZuUaoyEftpkg9k

[@Madbandit77]

Michael Rosenbaum. 😎

[@Buffy8Fan]

I have been waiting for this episode. I will miss the cat bell. The metaphor of how Angelus turned and the aftermath is beautiful. The bedroom scene was initially filmed on the front lawn and wasn't done well until it was realized that the characters needed to be in a more intimate situation and setting. Enyos actually says, "One moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts and that soul is taken from him." While Jenny is telling the truth when she says it was, "true happiness," the true happiness was just one of many number of ways Angel could have forgotten the guilt that would end up stripping his soul. And this is all just one more reason everyone should of been more cautious around him when they heard he was cursed (as the word does have a negative connotation even in its magical meaning) with a soul. Jenny was sent with no idea what could break the curse to make sure it stayed intaked. Dumb, I know. Even she seemed to think so when talking to Enyos. I don't always agree with Ian of the Passion of the Nerd fame, but in the case of Willow finding out about Xander/Cordelia I do. She had a right to be upset, but not a right to be angry and accuse Xander of making a wrong choice because she didn't give him the choice and tell him she was interested and ask him out (she had the guts to do so with Oz, but not Xander [which is another point in the she really shouldn't be as angry as she is as she is currently wooing Oz]). I also love that fact that Oz puts Willow in her place without yelling at her for her only asking to kiss him just to "make Xander jealous or even the score." It was just as shallow as Oz said, he just did it without being upset with her for it. "What's that do" is the best last lines of any character ever.

[@SmallFaerie]

Xander knew perfectly well how Willow felt about him though. Willow hardly needed to ask him out to make that clear.

[@Buffy8Fan]

​@@SmallFaerie It's not about making anything clear. It's about not staying in the holding pattern Willow was comfortable in. Buffy at one point even tells Willow that she couldn't wait around for Xander to "wake up and smell the hottie." Xander was not obligated to like Willow just because Willow liked him. Xander is perfectly within rights to like Cordelia if he wants to. Xander asked Buffy in _Prophecy Girl._ Even if he was rejected, asking Buffy out had him leaving the holding pattern Willow still seems to be in with Xander despite her trying to move on with Oz (which is another reason the anger should be invalid, Willow is moving on with Oz as well). If she wants to be upset that it never happened and she lost her chance she has that right, but the anger that she displays is not valid as she never asked Xander out and Xander wasn't interested enough to ask her out.

[@LeChaunce]

"Wait -- is the Angel I know and love just a scam?" Not really -- the Angel you know and love is a cage that Jenny's people cursed Angelus into.

[@LeChaunce]

And the other thing to remember is that Angelus is the true being -- Angel is the cage, the straightjacket, the false persona. And this storyline was basically meant to be the horror equivalent of those guys who take their girlfriends' virginities and then immediately dump them and move on to their next victim. I knew plenty of guys like that in high school. Despicable.

[@jaycievictory8461]

I totally get this point of view but you could argue that human Angel i.e. the soul is Angel's true form. The demon Angelus stole his body when he died and the Gypsies shoved him back into that body with the curse and the Angel soul is strong enough to dominate and subjugate the demon.

[@LeChaunce]

tl;dr version: They make it very clear that Angelus with a soul becomes Angel, not Angel without a soul becomes Angelus, though that's how it seems since we saw way more of Angel than Angelus up to this point.

[@jaycievictory8461]

@@LeChaunce Not sure where you get the info the soul is destroyed. In the episode 'Angel' he just says it's "gone". Same as any other soul after someone dies. Left a bit vague as to what happened to it :) I also disagree that it's ever explicitly stated either way whether it's redacted's soul or not. It just narratively makes a lot more sense to me that it is redacted's. But I can already tell we both feel passionately about this so let's agree to disagree 🤗

[@Hannah-rn7td]

not really as you could then say that everyone is just a cage. that we are all just cages and that when our souls get removed (if they actually could) that would then be the true us; soulless. I know Angel has a curse involved but the curse cursed him with a soul so he went back to his original self (plus the vampire part). that doesn't mean that Angel is truly Angelus. Angelus is just Angel without a soul. Angel is Angel. Angel with a soul is who he truly is.

[@Figgy5119]

Alley probably: "it's so nice you're super invested in the Buffy-Angel relationship" they said, "we're so glad you're diggin Angel," they said...sadistic subscribers...

[@4everbuffylover]

I feel like the second half of the season isn’t as much of a gut punch if you aren’t invested in them. It doesn’t work properly if you don’t care about them and want them to be happy 🙁

[@caveymoley]

Noooo not the cat bell!!! * *drops to knees in the rain and screams at the sky* * NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@idontsignin]

He isn't Angel anymore, Angel is gone, he's just good old sadistic Angelus. They're almost like 2 different people. Angel loves and cares deeply for Buffy, Angelus wants to destroy buffy before killing her.

[@corvus1970]

They are definitely two different people.

[@ledamethOP]

Not exactly. In Buffy universe, the soul acts as a moral compass. So Angelus is still Angel but without conscience. He was already showing obsessive behavior towards Buffy, just in a “romantic” way. Now he is still obsessed with Buffy but more into playing with her feelings and wrecking her.

[@razycrandomgirl]

@@ledamethOP I think it all depends on what you subscribe to. Whether Angel is the soul and Angelus the demon, if the soul tortures Angelus and having it leave, frees the demon.

[@Melanie-jy2nw]

corvus1970 SPOILER they can’t be different people. We’ve seen with Spike that even with a soul he’s still same old Spike but with a guilty conscience

[@Shadowman4710]

@@corvus1970 Well that's one way of looking at it-the Buffy way. There are other schools of thought on the subject.

[@octo448]

I always have one gripe with the way people respond to this episode, and rarely do people agree with me. It's about Xander and Willow. When Xander asked Buffy to the dance and she turned him down, most people "side" with Buffy. You can't just make up feelings and it's justified, if sad, when you have to turn down someone you care about platonically because they are developing romantic feelings. Willow feels romantically about Xander, but he says he doesn't feel it in return when talking to Buffy, not realizing Willow is there. Whether that's the truth or not- he SAYS it, explicitly. If we apply the same logic to him that we applied to Buffy, he's perfectly justified in not dating Willow given all the information on the table. He shouldn't say yes to her just because she feels is. Keeping his relationship with Cordelia a secret implies that one or both of them is ashamed of it and that raises some questions, but on the other hand, nobody is ever entitled to information about someone else's relationship if they aren't part of said relationship. So if they mutually agree to keep it a secret, that's something I think should be respected. Willow's emotional response is understandable given her age and the signals she'd been receiving earlier in the school year. I just don't think that Xander was way out of line doing... whatever he was doing, with Cordelia, any more than Buffy was when she refused Xander and continued to pursue Angel. neither of them is doing anything wrong- in fact, I'd argue Xander is even less in the wrong because Willow never voices her feelings for Xander to him, whereas Xander does ask Buffy directly to the dance. He didn't even turn her down, because she never asked.

[@susanmaggiora4800]

I don’t think it was the sex itself that caused the happiness, more the after effects of it. I think it’s possible he could have sex with a person he didn’t love & not lose his soul. I also think the losing the soul part of the curse was likely an accident of the spell that probably wasn’t intended. Im guessing that they never thought he’d actually find true happiness, since the curse was pretty effective. They just never counted on a cute little vampire slayer coming into his life.

[@Henrik_Holst]

The losing the soul part could also be the high cost of such powerful magic that was needed to resoul a vampire.

[@demarek]

You should try and NOT read the comments from this point on - have a moderator or someone that can go through them to remove spoilers. Lot's of other reactors got spoiled and many episodes beyond this point have spoilers in them.

[@Troglodyte]

Agreed. They already seem spoilery now, with people not necessarily giving away specific scenes, but using opinions formed from the entirety of the show to argue about arcs and character motivations.

[@anonmouse6337]

You need an evil bell for Angel now. Like a vuvuzela or something.

[@adamgannaway]

The curse does sound counterintuitive. If he achieves pure happiness, he becomes a monster again. Seems like they wouldn’t want there to be an option for him to lose his soul and start hurting people. But as the Uncle puts it, the curse isn’t about justice, it’s about vengeance. As long as he suffers, the curse is doing its job. The curse is not about protecting others, it’s about bringing suffering to Angel.

[@RV-vx9ek]

That's a really good way to put it actually.

[@zoesmith12]

you know theyre evil when they have eyeliner on

[@nicholasassaf8441]

Jenny was sent to watch Angel not Buffy. Also, Angel and Angelus are to different entities in one body. Don't be hating on Angel for what Angelus says and does. But yeah, guillotine for Angelus IMMEDIATELY

[@olived9560]

Except for the fact that Angelus would turn to dust, meaning that Angel would be dust as well...

[@nicholasassaf8441]

@@olived9560 yea...

[@nicholasassaf8441]

@@DaDunge Yeah you are right. I interpret vampires in the show as being id monsters that react on impules and desires. Human Angel, Angle with a soul and Angelus are different from eachother because they either have or lack somthing in them that forms the persona.

[@angelus1738]

@@DaDunge Not exactly true. First of all, why would you even mention something that happens "much much later in the series" on a react channel who doesn't want spoilers? Second of all, as we've been told before, a vampire may have the same exact memories as the person they were before and may act like them sometimes, but it isn't them. It's a soulless demon who has taken over their body. So yes, Angelus may have the memories of Angel, but he isn't him. Hence the reflection.

[@DaDunge]

@@angelus1738 Because it's not really spoiler. If I said where it is from and who said it it might be a spoiler. But what I can say is that the character directly disawows the idea that a vampire has nothing in common with his human counterpart.

[@Henrik_Holst]

So now it's official, finally welcome to Buffy, Alley! Angels true happiness was not him having sex, remember that the transformation happened while Buffy was asleep. The key moment was more likely that he woke up next to his true love and that was his moment of true happiness.

[@KingdomLex]

I CACKLED WHEN YOU DROPPED THE CAT BELL SGKJFSK

[@CloudslnMyCoffee]

i almost cried when you dropped the cat bell 😭😭😭

[@RoseJackson1607]

I believe it is Passion of the nerd (who makes AWESOME reviews of Buffy, Angel & more) who said that Angel seems to actually be in the bliss of resting next to his lover when he changes, it's not really about sex, it's about the ecstasy of intimacy you can feel after it when you're with the right person...

[@math9172]

They made the curse that way because the purpose of giving him his soul back was so that he eternally suffered from all the horrors he did when he had no soul. However if he had true happiness then he doesn't really suffer anymore so the curse is broken. And Angel with a soul doesn't want to lose his soul cause he despises Soulless Angel, so basically it's just so that he suffers. But that's pretty stupid still cause that (obviously) causes him to kill people when he loses his soul, so the curse was more about revenge and being egotistical than getting rid of a dangerous vampire.

[@BabyDinosaurRawr]

The car scene with Giles gets me every damn time- So. Many. Feels

[@escalatordropdown5057]

Holy shit that final cat bell edit. Absolute perfection.

[@NessOnett8]

"Why did they make the curse that way?" Because it was meant to be a punishment. And if he was happy, then he obviously wasn't being punished. And to have happiness, and lose it, is a turmoil all its own. See: Buffy.

[@amandabroom9878]

🤣🤣🤣 I ❤ the triggered edits whenever you made a face every time Angelus insulted Buffy. So funny!

[@mystic_tacos]

It wasn't the sex, it was the pure release of emotions. The ultimate show of love. The connection of two souls.

[@emgardo]

RIP CAT BELL😔🙏

[@swimtrainee8950]

Ally, you're the best reactor I've come across! Thank you! And LOL at how Innocent you were in the prologue! And then you were cracking open the rocket-launchers after! Hah! Also, it occured to me for the first time watching this, that this is, in a way, "True Love's Kiss" (subverted). True Love's Kiss breaks every curse - but in this case, it has a terrible consequence. And what great performances all round!

[@slayergirl6983]

I love how Giles is holding the sharpie in the background. It's so funny! 😄

[@lurker1316]

These videos make me smile so much. Welcome to hating Angelus. Enjoy your stay.

[@minnesotajones261]

Angel wanted to help and atone for his transgressions when he was evil. Angelus just wants to watch the world burn.

[@r.maciel2544]

I started watching Buffy when it aired, and to this day the last scene with Giles makes me cry.

[@rainbow.rivers]

This episode really said: kill all men (except Giles and Oz)

[@chaseallen372]

"I will sue this fictional character for emotional trauma" is the most relatable thing I've ever heard haha been bringing your videos the last couple days and you are so awesome! Thanks so much for the great content!

[@quinnsinclair7028]

"It's just too real and I hate it." Welcome to Buffy.

[@CallumboMagumbo]

I know it's always said. But I love your edits - the uncut videos on patreon are one thing, but this gives me LIFE

[@davewolf6256]

Alley sees Angel eat a Stripper: Maybe it's a plan to beat Spike and Dru. Alley sees Angel hurt Buffy's feels: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT!

[@naraiceylob]

Hi. I've watched all your Buffy reactions so far in the last 48 hours. Good job. Love the edits. Its very entertaining to watch and I'm glad I found your channel.

[@krank23]

Joss Whedon plays our feels like a fiddle =)

[@AscendedXSaiyan]

Speak for yourself. I always hated Angel so I was happy when this happened

[@nomoresandwiches8011]

The recorder music when Willow saw Xander and Cordelia, chef kiss.

[@nhabib114]

Alley is drama. Love you.

[@forlornfawn4495]

I'm currently watching buffy for the first time, only about a season ahead of alley so I honestly have no clue where its headed and oh my gosh this episode really made me appreciate angel as a character. Up to this point it didnt seem like he had much depth ? he kinda just skulked around and popped up every now and then and I kinds feel the romance between buffy and angel was kind of forced, but idk this episode kinda let me see how interesting as a character he was, and Buffys vulnerability, hurt and anger made her seem even more human. And this episode cemented a love for oz. Oh my god I love oz so much.

[@JayceMaxwell]

You're very lucky and a lot of us will be extremely jealous. We'd give anything to be able to see this all for the first time again.

[@sk70091]

Soul-having Angel would never have drunk from that woman just to become a spy. The whole point of the curse was to make him suffer for having killed all those people before.

[@Qualimar]

You have the best reactions! I'm normally a Xander defender because he's my second favourite character (after Buffy herself) and because I kind of identify with him, but yeah I can feel Willow's heartbreak here. What we all tend to forget because Cordelia is so awesome - and I love Cordelia - is that she is basically brunette Regina George and was Willow's *bully*. Sure they are quasi-friendly now but way back in the first episode she casually slammed Willow the first time we saw them interact onscreen ("nice to see you've seen the softer side of Sears.")

[@susanmaggiora4800]

I’ve honestly never clicked faster!🤣

[@spookymia8135]

As far as the "why was the curse like that," the purpose was to make him suffer forever. The guilt did most of the work, but eventually he was (as we can see just by him being with Buffy) able to move on from his past misdeeds enough that he began pursuing things that made him happy, however unintentionally or thoughtlessly. The key to breaking the curse, a moment of pure happiness, was supposed to function as incentive for Angel to keep himself miserable. He might be willing to cut himself some slack for what he'd done in the past, but the idea of potentially doing anything like that again was out of the question. So, theoretically, he would have avoided his own happiness to ensure he never was at risk of breaking the curse and unleashing his demonic side on the world again. But, we see how that turned out.

[@NawiTheCore]

Remember, it's not Angel doing all this. It's Angelus (i.e. Angel without a soul). The show treats the two as separate people.

[@kaneyoung7439]

This girl cant catch a break- should be the tagline for Buffy

[@racafritz]

I love how you have the Giles pop doll holding the sharpie. So cute!

[@catmadeofgold8535]

can i just say the you see me rollin and the cat bell part were GREAT

[@Shoofyou10]

The analogy where after a girl sleeps with a guy he changes the next morning is used pretty well here I’d say. It’s a really fun twist and really kicks the show into another gear going forward. Just an FYI, both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan are great criers. Anytime one of them cries on the show it’s like a gut punch and hurts my heart. They both really make you feel the emotions when they are sad.

[@markb10170]

I am living for how engaged you are with this series! I can't go back and discover this show again myself, but watching you experience it gives me life. And if no one clarified yet, the curse had that catch because they wanted to give Angel a soul so that he could feel guilt and suffer for his crimes, but a soul allows you to feel love and happiness. So if he reaches the point where having a soul no longer tortures him - and in fact makes his life better - then the curse no longer serves its purpose. And I have it on good authority from many friends who followed this show when it aired that it's totally acceptable to thirst after Angel with a soul and hate him without it, since it's like an entirely different character. Major props to David B's acting, it's like he flipped a switch and took on a whole new role in the span of one episode.

[@kendavis8046]

Arguably one of the saddest episodes. But holy crap! So much more to come!

[@spacejack400]

Your predictions at the beginning of this video seem so... innocent.

[@Athena-ul7iz]

I love this episode soooo much

[@panicatthebts7434]

Two things: Your emotional rollercoaster is SO entertaining to witness and I LOVE how quickly you fell for Oz. He's a great character and I love him so much!

[@adgato75]

The ring is a Claddagh ring. It originated in Galway , Ireland hundreds of years ago. That is why Angel says it is of his people.

[@shannonelizabethmorgan1416]

I tend to argue that it wasnt the sex that gives him true happiness. If you notice the transformation is a bit later. It's at the point that he is contented, he loves buffy knowing she loves him back. Thats where the moment of true happiness comes.

[@4everbuffylover]

And even more, she accepts him and makes him feel like he can be redeemed. They have something really special

[@dusk78]

It wasn't the sex itself that caused him to lose his soul. It was being with the woman he truly loved and for a single moment was content.

[@razycrandomgirl]

SHE DROPPED THE CAT BELL! LMAO!

[@Belnick6666]

yea, it is not the 6 or the O that lost his soul so the demon could control the body again, but that he felt perfectly content, that he was no longer tormented of what what he had seen and the memories of what the demon had done when it took control the first time. In theory Angel could lose his soul by going to a good psychiatrist as well

[@mutantanemone]

"Wait... when did he get clothes?" YO, I've been watching this show since I was, like, 10 and I've literally never noticed that discrepancy. 😂😂 Props.

[@yourfluffyvegancinnamonrol2772]

That's because Angel had his clothes on at the end of the previous episode 😊

[@ibgvox]

I'm not spoiling anything but I like how you feel a sense of "oh, no" when "Written and Directed by Joss Whedon" appears on screen haha

[@cameronlapp9306]

lol I checked youtube like once an hour for this to come out :D

[@evermoreisamasterpiece]

This episode broke EVERYONE’S expectations. Fallen heroes are almost always redeemed at the end of the episode that they fell in, especially around the time period when this episode came out. We all expected Angel to come back before the episode ended. We were dead wrong, and it’s the best thing they could’ve ever done. David and Sarah’s chemistry in every scene they’re in is spectacular. The scene in Angel’s apartment is always a tear jerker. Prepare for one of the best season arcs in television history.