Why Elden Ring changed backstabs - A history of the Soulsborne backstab

[@Zarkator]

I think backstabs being so rare to occur in elden ring is ok due to the huge variety of movesets that should be available through ashes of war. A good pvp match will no longer include shoulder sniffing, but actually spacing each other for actual attacks, and backstabs being a huge callout tool.

[@battlerushiromiya205]

I hope so… im really getting worried about elden ring with all the recent news, pve being absolutely piss easy, magic being op, backstabs being nerfed to oblivion, shorter roll distance (which i dont mind but believe dex builds should have good dodge rolls), ashes of war look great but i wonder how well they can be implemented in pvp. I really REALLY hope fromsoft proves my worries ill founded but im slightly losing hope 😟

[@walker193356]

FACTS

[@fairlyaveragegamer4000]

I couldn’t agree more. I think the fact so many people are so upset/nervous about this change is purely due to peoples natural want to resist change. I mean chain backstabs were/are a problem in dark souls, even dark souls 3 like you’re saying was a lot of the time people trying to get a whiff backstab off on you. People are just foolish and I’m glad someone like Miyazaki got through the cracls

[@chad5577]

@@battlerushiromiya205 pve being piss easy? Have you been living under a rock? Dude the bosses still kick ass

[@Yarida929]

@@battlerushiromiya205 The only reason why people say it was easy was because the prebuilt classes in the network test were op weirdo

[@danlorett2184]

One of the biggest problems with Fromsoft games in the past was their COMPLETE REFUSAL to add more regional matchmaking options. In all of their games you got only two regions: Japan, and Not Japan. This is something that fighting games learned to do (and not just fighting games, CS 1.6 also had this option TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO) because if you match someone from NA with someone in Japan, it's going to be a laggy shitfest no matter how good your netcode is.

[@hak2297]

Exactly this is the biggest problem, the game needs a ping filter or region lock, not impractical fixes that make all grabs fails.

[@joshmay2944]

This seems like the lowest hanging fruit in terms of improving PvP - the code required couldn’t be very complicated and countless other online games have demonstrated the value of this feature.

[@reflexassassin]

Plese don't! If this happens then the pvp will be divided in continents (or even lands) and then the games will die out even faster.. I've played lots of games with these kinds of implications and it's always nice at the starting cycle of the game but after a few years it just means you can only play the game in between certain hours that match when the majority of players are online. This has unfortunately already happened on the DkS:Re.

[@joshmay2944]

@@reflexassassin they could still have a global option in addition to more region specific ones, then you have the best of both worlds

[@reflexassassin]

@@joshmay2944 Good point! DkS: Re actually has this but it's quite well-hidden and more importantly its default setting is on local unfortunately, so 90% of the playerbase has never changed this. I do know it improves gameplay (and makes pvp way more consistent and fun) yet I prefer laggy invasions to no invasions at all.

[@Jeenine]

I consider this vid to be the silver bullet to any backstabs misconceptions, great vid Amir

[@godofchaos7534]

Just wanted to say hi to Amir and the shi*ters. Thank you for your videos :)

[@kelakogreenaddict1888]

Not a quicksilver bullet?

[@driedroot6962]

In DS2, if players poise through attacks while running, their movement speed would significantly decrease for a second (no stagger). To some degree, this poise mechanic also prevented backstab fishing in DS2. If Fromsoft really worries about passive poise and backstab ruining PVP, the poise mechanic in DS2 might be a good call. Great analysis Amir!

[@Ukulisti]

This. DS2, while it has its flaws, had the best poise implementation from all Souls games.

[@driedroot6962]

@@Ukulisti Agree, poise mechanic works well in DS2. I'm surprised that From took the concept from DS1 rather than DS2.

[@darkphoenix2]

@@Ukulisti DS2 has the best implementation of several combat mechanics, like the back step, dual wielding, and stamina usage

[@Amir0]

That’s a pretty sure fire way to prevent passive poise fishing. Funny enough ds3 has some weird effect with pers that makes it harder to fish with by tanning attacks

[@bhuwin6186]

DS2 gets shit on for no fucking reason that other games arent guilty of, it was the true evolution to the PVP we enjoy today.

[@ZombiesWerePeopleToo]

Dark souls could never have a system like fighting games do without a ground-up rewrite of the entire engine, save for maybe the rendering/animation systems. Fighting games can have rollback netcode because they’re deterministic and there are a relatively small number of things to keep track of. It’s not quite how this works, but you could imagine that they duplicate the entire game state for each of the last N frames (where N is the maximum delay) and then when they receive an input they revert the game state back to when that input was performed on the opponent’s screen and invisibly replay the game up until the present. For a complex game where you can’t afford to re-simulate multiple frames this means that you need to implement optimisations which only recalculate the changes to a limited set of elements. The more of these optimisations you implement, the more likely it is that you’ll have some subtle bug that causes a desync, and solving desyncs is incredibly tough. You could write a game engine that allows those optimisations to be automatically performed (and therefore massively reducing the amount of code that needs to be checked for desync issues), by having a more abstract high-level representation of the game logic, but doing so would be a monumental task for a game as complex as Elden Ring.

[@Amir0]

Good point, it's possible a lot of netcode implementations could only work with some severe engine changes, which isn't really practical especially with the game already made. However I don't think it's remotely impossible to do a lot of these changes for specific interactions between players, I don't think you would necessary need to roll back the entire gamestate just animations and speciifc player-to-player actions. However I'm still very early in learning netcode implementations and such

[@zaxmaxlax]

@@Amir0 If elden ring ran at 120fps would it feel less laggy on a delay based netcode? You should definetly make a video about rollback netcode.

[@fa-pm5dr]

@@Amir0 is there a book or something to learn about this?

[@Amir0]

@@zaxmaxlax delay based netcode would be the world solution imo, and like he said it would require engine changes just like roll back

[@yeet159]

If they used rollback that'd be a huge game changer. It'll be awhile until they move away from the current latency style of pvp since like you said it's too much to do but one can hope in the future a new From game would have it. Roll back is only for p2p games right? I couldn't imagine CSGO with rollback lol

[@AndruSouls]

I'm not against facestabs being basically gone, but I really hope they tweak the system a bit so we can at least punish things like parry spamming, which we couldn't in the NT

[@Amir0]

Yep, especially with deadangles being less effective.

[@OlbedSyanKnight]

You could actually punish those in DS2 and DS3 through front stabs or kicks.

[@shira_yone]

Jump heavy or maybe faster jump attacks in general? Or is this too slow to do and the person spam parrying can react roll to it? Since jump attacks do lots of posture damage, if it hits parry spammers they'll be punished by a riposte when their posture is broken (essentially the same punish as backstab, but initiated differently and doesn't look as unnatural/janky).

[@LucasCamargo827]

@@shira_yone Yep i played the network test and all jumping atacks are imune to parry in elden ring,never tried the backstab,probably don't work because the animations are too fast now,but jump atacks are 100% safe against parry spam.

[@shira_yone]

@@LucasCamargo827 that's good to hear. Seems like most people forgot that you can jump in Elden Ring and how it's supposed to change combat significantly.

[@lemonzest8650]

One thing I REALLY like about Elden is it's super precise hitboxes. Bosses stabs can miss if you're out of the way just by running, and you can evade swings on big enemies by crouching. It's so nice to see and so enjoyable

[@indrast5203]

And then you get hit by the AOE

[@thebignigga69420]

Contrary to popular belief , DS2 also has some of the tightest hitboxes in the series , with an exception of about 5 enemies .

[@incius8341]

I think the 2 biggest takeaways from ds3 are netcode and animation clarity. Facestabs and stuff always look so awkward because the bs is so unnatural looking, like so many animations in ds3 seamlessly flow into eachother except backstabs (and scythe heavy after 2 r1's). A better look might be if the player reaches out their left arm while jabbing or swinging the weapon in their right. This way a player can still be hit with a whiffed bs when it happens. While explaining away facegrabs as being pulled into/embraced by the backstaber. TLDR: Instead of being sucked it'll looked like being grabbed.

[@quiett3803]

and you could also play the parry crit animation if the player is looking at you instead of a properly backstab animation would explain facegrabs and make it less weird

[@LSB44446]

Speaking of the scythe heavy, I'd like to see a look at animation transitions through Souls. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had movesets where most buttons had 2 versions, a start and a continuation, but Dark Souls 2 and 3 don't have this, yet Bloodborne and Sekiro do. For instance, 2 R1's with a 2 handed claymore is a swing downward and pull upward in Dark Souls 1, but if you do an R2 and then an R1, it's the swipe right to left and then the pull upward. 2 and 3 don't have those transition movesets.

[@hobosorcerer]

Or just have melee attacks deal a lot more damage from behind, and forego the janky grab entirely.

[@incius8341]

@@hobosorcerer That'll be nice for ganks

[@incius8341]

@@hobosorcerer Also, one of the best things about these games is everything goes both ways. In PvE and pvp nothing is off limits. When you get mikiri countered in sekiro or shot out of the air the same way you do to the mobs/bosses it's shocking and important. It's immersive to see that everyones on the same page even the npc's.

[@LordRadai]

Ds2 backstab confirm also keeps track of who you are trying to backstab, it will only backstab if it hits the same person that triggered your backstab check animation, so you can't trigger the animation by pressing R1 on someone's back and catch someone else.

[@Amir0]

This is something I did not know, however it's a thoughtful thing despite how little of a problem it likely would have been. I think backstabbing someone different from who u wanted to can happen in DS3.

[@LordRadai]

@@Amir0 it can. Saw it happen in a lot of fishing videos.

[@Yeetomato]

@@Amir0 has happened to me a few times

[@frankhungtw]

Not as realistic and kinda lame tbh

[@CharlotteMimic]

Great analysis! I like that FROM is trying to address facestabs, and I hope that with the data and feedback from the network test they can make backstabs usable.

[@Amir0]

Certainly, there is a link to give feedback on this post btw www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/qu0ohc/elden_ring_pvp_is_not_ready_for_the_public_and/

[@RazzleTheRed1]

My biggest issue with the backstab system in the later games (DS2 especially but somewhat in DS3) is that the game would often attempt a backstab when you just wanted to do a normal attack resulting in a failed backstab when a normal attack would have hit

[@RazzleTheRed1]

perhaps changing backstabs to a different button besides the light attack button might fix it? Although that would likely overcomplicate things quite a bit

[@KSPDS]

I always thought backstabs were supposed to be a stealth attack, which is why it does such high damage. Nobody should have been backstabbing an enemy that they're facing head on. I can see why they removed it because it takes away from the combat and makes PvP gimmicky. Bloodborne PvP was excellent because it required action to actually get a backstab. If you really want to play the backstab game all day, that's fine, but I think most players are ready to move into a more open and creative system for fighting. When the best players are only so good because of the gimmicks, it's probably time to move onto something different and more enjoyable. Awesome video though. It's cool to see how the mechanics have evolved.

[@ggg21201]

This. Backstabs have actually been happening frequently from what I've seen so far, but mostly to invaders that are facing multiple enemies and someone sneaks up behind them. Facing someone head on though rarely works, and it shouldn't. I like what I'm seeing personally.

[@lastraven7205]

exactly. shouldn't exist in pvp

[@RaVeN1K]

What a noob thing to say...

[@clayxros576]

@@RaVeN1K What a stab fisher thing to say

[@danilomarjanovic7967]

@@RaVeN1K everyone look!A sweaty player :D

[@angelover116]

This was unbiased and very informative. This looked at the validation of all backstabs in all souls PVP and broke down the misconceptions that are being yelled at in the Elden Ring demo. This evidence should be considered first before wide sweeping changes are implemented because of a select few who got to play less than 10% of the final game. There is no meta yet and experimentation will show if something is more important than old backstabbing strats. The DS3 glitches are far more destructive to the game's health than the current backstab debates. Give it a few months to make a more educated analysis and we will know more on what will make this game last many year's instead of a few. Such as Bloodborne's abysmal PVP life span or DS1 backstab/poise meta or even DS2 overpowered lifegems. I'm hopeful to see what small changes are done once we see the unfair bugs/glitches being removed.

[@Sinphanius]

Very interesting. I do agree that adding an actual 'Grab' animation to Backstabs could resolve a lot of this, and that actually gave me an idea that could probably permanently solve the problem of unwanted Backstab attempts; What if Backstab Attempts were initiated by something other than R1? My first thought is, well, why not put it on the Interact Button? This button is used to grab objects in the world, why not also people? Then your R1 would never have inconsistent effects because of an unplanned Backstab Attempt. You instead get behind someone and press interact to initiate the Backstab. Part of my thinks the system could then also be expanded to include L1 Backstabs, if the Interact Button effectively didn't launch an attack that did damage, or only did trivial damage, but put the person into a Backstab Ready Animation kinda like Bloodborne did. You could then follow up with R1 or L1, or even R2/L2 to have multiple different backstabs. But that's probably more complexity than is actually needed, and would probably devolve to just having one backstab attack you always use and the others are worthless. And on thinking about it a bit more, this is almost like the system that the Dark Souls Remastest mod implemented. I think that was its name. In that Mod in order to backstab someone you had to Channel Patches and Kick them in the back , unless you were using a Dagger, I think? I never actually played the Mod since I'm more of a PvE kinda guy but I watched the video on it a while back. I think Interact is a more consistent button to use, but the basic concept is the same.

[@varsa507]

You're onto something. I like the current backstab system in elden ring but the constant failed backstab attempts are a problem. If we use something like the X button for backstabs you no longer get unwanted attempts on normal attacks. Another fix that someone mentioned if the complete removal of backstabs and instead do 30% more damage on enemies' backs

[@letslearntricking]

I missed the Network Test (mostly to avoid any campaign spoilers) so take my inexperienced opinion with a grain of salt but from what I’ve seen with backstabs is that they mostly need to find a way to balance it around both damage and ability to avoid. In ds1, backstabs are objectively the single best strategy you can use in not only pvp but pve because how easy they are to pull off and the absurd damage they deal. If you’re playing to win why bother trying to use cool strategies and weapons when the easiest solution is to strafe to an enemies back and press r1 once? Even high level pvp is entirely focused on backstabs just with more complicated escapes and cheese. In ds3, yes its far more balanced in terms of escape but the damage is still pretty high. I don’t like that sprinting for someones back with a shield up is actually kind of a viable strategy thanks to how powerful bs’ still are even if you have the option of rolling away now. My fix here is honestly much more of a rip the bandaid off approach than others might like but just remove items like the hornet ring. They already do some pretty crazy damage and boosting it by 30% is really stupid imo, plus theres no way to counter that increase outside of the dragonscale ring which no one uses since bs’ are harder to pull off and you won’t think of switching to it unless you’ve already been backstabbed, and by that point it won’t save you since the next bs will probably kill you anyway. Backstabs should be a punish tool for bad spacing and poor timing with certain attacks, not a “spam and fish for this tactic until your opponent screws up once” Personally I think From should really lower the amount of damage dealt by backstabs overall by all weapons except daggers for obvious reasons. They don’t seem to get enough love as it is even with their current crit multiplier being higher so I think carving out a more reasonable niche could help them find a better spot in the meta. It might also work to speed up the bs animation for daggers if they remain as hard as they currently are to pull off in the full release. Another option would be to boost bs damage received by other weapons when casting certain spells since that might keep non dagger weapons from becoming completely pointless for punishing. In the end I dunno, I’m not a game designer, a modder, or a high level pvper, I’m just a guy who wants to fight some bosses and invade others for some fun every once in awhile. But I like to pvp for fun and to try cool weapons. I don’t want half the sandbox to be rendered pointless by one mechanic that I honestly might remove completely if I had the power.

[@dsedh23]

This. I found DS1's pvp real unfunny cuz of backstab. Roll dodge in DS3 became significantly faster, so the problem was kinda solved.

[@letslearntricking]

@@dsedh23 honestly as much as it may sound otherwise, I do generally like the way backstabs function in ds3 minus the damage output and abusable shield strats. I don’t want to have them removed from combat, but I really hate how they tend to have most of the meta revolve around what can and can’t be backstab punished really easily

[@ll-bz8re]

Good comment.

[@RandomGameClips27]

BS in Bloodborne is the best one, or if that is not satisfying then... just remove backstabs overall

[@Sercroc]

or they cold just put items to negate it, lke ds2, if they really can't make it work

[@hunterofmonsterss]

I actually prefer Elden Ring’s backstabs. They have always been the sloppiest part of design in the souls games, and really should only be usable on enemies who are barely moving.

[@lucca4957]

agree, for me the pvp on the series is so good, and the one thing that stands out as a weird game mechanic is this glitchys backstabs. dont feel like something is missing for me!

[@Malik-ig3ml]

I'd like to see From apply this to PvE and see if you still agree. Your idea of backstabs in a PvP setting would literally only be effective against AFK players, essentially making it a non-mechanic.

[@devilmaycrysarockingdontcome]

I dont like them, but they definitely are not the sloppiest part of the design

[@bencegergohocz5988]

Not when your back is esencially a fucking turtle shell... Implemnting a backstab that doesn't work sucks hard because it prevents normal hits. If this stays like this. We have to accept that same strange cosmic rule dictatets that you can only haevy the backs of enemies...

[@vandagylon2885]

@@Malik-ig3ml players are people who exploit the backstab mechanic to deal damage they should not otherwise be dealing. Enemies are artifical intelegence, so exploiting that trick vs mobs means much less.

[@MrOceansEleven]

It's rare that i click the like button of a video if i liked it. But i had to say at the end, well that video was very well done. It's not only the content and experience u shared but also how u edited it. Its awesome to watch, thank you, amir!

[@gabri9886]

Great video like always amir. I would like to also add that making the backstab similar to dks3 doesn't mean suddenly you want dks3 in Elden Ring. When you think of Dark souls 3 pvp, you think of hyperarmor, weapon arts, faster combat, and of course R1 spam not backstabs. Backstabs are just a recurrent mechanic that just happened to work best in dark souls 3 for the purpose its meant to be for. Elden Ring will be Elden Ring because of the variety of movesets, jumping, crouching, ashes of war, passive poise, not being able to combo .etc Backstabs functioning like dks3 will just be a mechanic to make sure you don't play carelessly and keeps you on your toes. Otherwise, the gameplay will be stale and spam friendly and lose alot of depth.

[@NickyKick]

I agree with your whole point, we need effective BS mechanic to have a way to punish the oponent decision depending on the situation. The only thing I don't want is BS doing too much damages, because it would promote an unidirectional gameplan that is really really boring imho (hello DkS1 PvP)

[@A3vs]

"Otherwise, the gameplay will be stale and spam friendly" Coming from DS3, I would argue that it's better to err on this side than not. DS3 PVP was incredibly passive, and when I think of DS3 combat I think of players running around waiting for their opponent to swing before performing a running attack, an R1 combo, fishing for backstabs, and trying to rollcatch when they do get the odd hit in. Hyperarmor and weapon arts are the fun bit that most players love, but PvP devolves into a really poor state when people play to win. Backstabs aren't the cause of the problem, but backstab fishing was popular because it was passive and difficult to punish (because the target needed to roll away from you to avoid the grab, and couldn't just punish it right away). I agree that Elden Ring backstabs are a problem, but bringing back the DS3 backstab checks and the playstyle that promoted won't help. The new jumping attacks and running attacks will, though.

[@reynauldwhistles2338]

@@A3vs this

[@gabri9886]

@@A3vs backstabs are never the optimal way to play in dks3 and they were never prominent until recently when ppl complained about it in ER because Souls community suffers from Stockholm syndrome. Whatever you can do to punish someone with a backstab, u can always do it easier and safer with a simple whiff punish. Not to mention, if u know what ur doing u can even punish ppl attempting to backstab ur ultra weapon with an ultra like in this clip 5:07. Now dks3 has passivity issues, backstabs just weren't the reason. The reason dks3 had passivity issues was due to things like running attack stun being weaker to neutral attack stun. While ER fixed this issue (running attack stun), it brought with it other issues like how u can simply willy nilly attack without a single care of ur positioning and placement due to no care of being backstabbed like in 11:19. You can already do that in dks3 to extent as shown in 11:42 where u can play passive by showing ur back against the aggressor know that they can't attack u with their fast option r1 since it will trigger a backstab slow animation u can easily get away from or bait to punish it. That passivity idea will be far far more prevalent in ER because u can get that grab whiff animation anytime they are showing their backs, meaning chasing players will be much much harder then it already is in dks3. If the backstab grab was removed that would be even better than having it this first place at this point

[@A3vs]

@@gabri9886 You're definitely right about intentionally showing your back, but I don't think it will be such a big issue in Elden Ring. Running and jumping attacks aren't affected, and given the better and more varied chase down options present in Elden Ring, you might be fine without the neutral R1 in those scenarios. I agree that having backstab attempts automatically triggered by R1 isn't ideal, though. Yes, whiff punishes were easier than backstabs, and safer too - but if we get passive poise, I doubt that will still hold true. I might go back and try 5:07 again; I don't remember it being a real option unless the backstab attempt was extremely late, but I could be wrong. It does require that you stay a certain range away to do it safely, no matter what direction the backstab initiator is facing, which limits the weapons you can do it with. Still, outside of some outliers like the pickaxe, I think it should apply to most slow weapons. DS3 passivity was caused by a whole pile of things, from rolls being really cheap and more effective than any previous game, running attacks having short stun and dealing reduced damage, hyperarmor activating relatively late during swings, and jumping attacks having instability frames, high stamina cost and terrible tracking. I do think the ease and relative safety of backstabs contributed, though. "u can simply willy nilly attack without a single care of ur positioning and placement due to no care of being backstabbed" This I don't agree with, by the same logic as you used above; backstabs aren't needed to punish random, poorly thought-out attacks because there are plenty of options to do so. Backstabs do however heavily punish slow attacks, like jumping attacks, ultra R2s, etc. There are plenty of attacks in DS3 that are very risky to use primarily because of backstabs. Whether or not these types of attacks should be so heavily punished is debatable, I would think. Regardless, I think the distance check isn't good enough, and at the very least the grab box check should be performed on the receiving end instead. Rolling behind the backstab initiator should not pull you into a backstab, but it can and does. They may be punishable, but they aren't *reasonably* punishable by players who don't know about the distance check, and even for those who do know about it, I don't think they're punishable enough given the very high payoff for success.

[@OldtheOldOne]

Finally, i won't have to send a copy-paste of countless paragraphs to explain why it sucks

[@2394Generic]

I'm honestly surprised you don't have a greater following Amir, your content would be useful and interesting for a very wide range of players, Dark Souls and otherwise. Great for the community.

[@Crit-Multiplier]

He will get enough exposure eventually

[@Eden_Arcane]

this

[@nymphaeales9149]

Your comment made me realise I wasn't even subscribed lol

[@dorkmoonblade4315]

I mean the Dark Souls multiplayer community is fairly niche. And the hardcore and highly technical part of that community is a niche within a niche. Keep in mind that Jeenine has to many been the model Dark Souls 3 player in how to best play in PvP and he has less than 10k subs

[@pincognito1938]

Good stuff, Amir. Will be very interesting to see how From has tweaked things at full release.

[@NavyPharmD]

Man, I was all ready to rip you a new one on that title before watching the video. Now, having watched it all, I'm not mad at all. Very informative, very objective look at the history and mechanics of backstabs and why Elden Ring has the system it currently does. I agree with your conclusions, too. This needs to be fixed ASAP. Backstabs are an integral part of the DS PvP experience and are, at the very least, critical to punishing very long casts or these newly spammed jump-heavies. Good video.

[@victornguyen1175]

Backstabs were always my least favourite part of PVP, so them taking a backseat and properly communicated goes far above all else. As a primary combat mechanic, it blows. If you can build around just fishing for backstabs, you only have to play half of the game. From a visual and conceptual design standpoint, it looks like it was always meant to be a punishment for making a critical error. A punishment for a mistake, not a reward for a good player. I always hated that, with the right build, you could viably just shoulder snipe and completely ignore normal combat.

[@classicandy5317]

It allows sloppy players not to be punished for careless game play..

[@lostalternative1414]

Excellent video as always! Honestly very happy about the change at 11:40 hope ER polishes up the backstabs and we get a damn fun game! Will so the clip at 2:40 with saint riot and ghosthardware. I remember that stream, good times.

[@hak2297]

??? The clip at 11:40 shows how it works in vanilla Ds3, meaning regular Ds3, how is that a change?

[@owlvard]

@@hak2297 I guess that means more people are totally fine with ds3 backstabs if they are shown how they actually work. It's easy to remember something being stronger than it was when a game is 5 years old

[@angoro210]

I don't have much experience with the pvp in the souls games but, something I would like to see is having a unique input for the backstab attempt, like holding light attack or pressing both light and heavy attack at the same time. That would definetly fix the problem of getting a backstab attempt when you didn't mean to.

[@aceroy9195]

And it would allow you to make predictive backstabbing viable. However dropped inputs would still be peoblematic.

[@MsDestroyer900]

@@aceroy9195 just make it the interact button, with the backstab attempt having higher priority. The interact button already is dedicated to interact only so, I don't see why not.

[@Aviv704]

Great video. Your thoroughness is awesome.

[@nothingbettertodo4729]

Quite honestly i think it's a considerable improvement, to me a backstab was never supposed to be a punish exactly because it limits the viability of 80% of the game's weapons in pvp, instead it should be a sneak attack on an unsuspecting player. With this change, a dragon bone fist r2 becomes a legitimate wager against the other player, it's a "are you gonna try me, punk?" situation, and that's a way more fun dynamic.

[@SevereOutcast]

I actually agree

[@ukaznipsigururuk8685]

That's actually a good take. Since Elden Ring added steath mechanic, it would make sense if that's what Fromsoft wanted. I hope that they added stuffs that steath gameplay pvp are viable and fun.

[@MsDestroyer900]

Only ultras suffered to a significant extent from BS fishing. Other weapons can completely mitigate BS fishing by being less predictable. Even then, a skilled enough ultra player wouldn't get BS either. I think your knowledge about it is skewed, please take it into consideration.

[@nothingbettertodo4729]

@@MsDestroyer900 I've played these games for about 3k hours total, depends on which game you mean but I'm assuming you mean 3, backstabs are easy to get if you're good enough at it, you can abuse the hell out of raviolis in ds3.

[@legendarybrando348]

@@MsDestroyer900 even a skilled ultra player cant do anything if the othere person is going for backstabs. I mainly play ultras and its pretty easy to bait players into a hit when there bs fishing but if there just a little skilled theres nothing you can do.

[@thecatman1754]

Wow, much more in depth than I was expecting!

[@hobosorcerer]

I don't mind the defending-side player check in the slightest, as preventing the visual curse that is the face-stab is clearly a priority to From. The biggest crux of this issue, in my opinion, is whatever causes backstabs to miss during some animations. I imagine that fixing the grab-box hitbox itself will fix a lot of other issues associated with backstabs, since it's the one thing we don't have enough information about, but we can't know until release.

[@Amir0]

Yeah, would take a lot of clips for me to narrow down an estimation of where exactly that hitbox is and what its shape is like. My argument still stands however that if the visual curse is so much of an issue at this point they might as well remove the mechanic because of the hinderance issue. Even with the grab box issue fixed only missed jumping r2s and high recovery attacks will have this issue.

[@hobosorcerer]

@@Amir0 Removing the backstab mechanic entirely? Now you're speaking my language-- just let melee hits from behind deal more damage or something.

[@raphaeloliveira89]

Your content is impressive, as always. I’m happy someone is trying to understand and suggest corrections for that issue.

[@deathmetallongsleeve]

The people in the comments seriously have a problem with ds3 backstabs? like bruh, the only thing broken about backstabs in ds3 is the bigger issue of the netcode being broken

[@keaturefeature]

Thanks for the very informative video!! This was a real treat

[@JizzburnGigaqueer]

Thank you for both breaking down all the technical details of the backstab implementations across the series, while also countering this weirdly pervasive argument that backstabbing being nerfed to the point of absolute uselessness would somehow be healthy for the game whatsoever.

[@lightningkitten]

it's cool to see your channel getting more popular

[@bandofspartans2999]

I'm honestly fine with almost no backstabs in PvP. Takes one spam out of the meta lineup. (I really like how Bloodborne did their visceral attacks.) Your suggested system makes a ton of sense though. Very good in-depth video.

[@LightNetBR]

I dont think so. Imagine three gankers vs one player without backstab, it seems impossible. Anyway, i cant wait more.

[@MCWaffles2003-1]

@@LightNetBR Isn't that how it should be though? If the only way to win a 1v3 is to cheese chain backstabs and constantly benefit from the i-frames you get in the animation then why want it? I prefer i-frames be reduced as much as possible as keeping them is flat out immersion breaking. Let a new meta evolve.

[@LightNetBR]

@@MCWaffles2003-1 I think i'll just play mage and spam spells, like they want to us play.

[@MCWaffles2003-1]

@@LightNetBR What? Because backstabbing is nerfed melee is useless or something? O_o

[@Crispierbug]

@@LightNetBR I come from the future, just one shot all 3 of them at once with strong ashes of war, no backstabs needed.

[@laziepeon1209]

You did a great deal of research for this and presented it in a nice and clear way.

[@nhall129]

Honestly I’d prefer them to use something like the Bloodborne system Especially since posture exists and there are so many different options in combat Using a quick jump attack to counter parries is one solution ive already seen and i really like that

[@nhall129]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler Oh i know! What i’m more so saying is that i think they could be de-emphasized a bit, given this game’s options. Like i think there are problably more interesting punishes we would see if backstabs weren’t the “be all end all” for every situation Making them less effective against runners and people who aren’t committed to an animation seems reasonable to me But parries could use a tweak to how much you can move during the animation, so that they can be punished If you read someone’s parry (which leads to a backstab style move) then you should probably get a backstab

[@shira_yone]

Honestly agree with this, it's such a jank mechanic that I personally feel not worth the headache of implementing smoothly (they attempted it 3 times already and it still looks unnatural), high time they focus on other combat mechanics. Since posture is back in ER, sounds like there'll be plenty of opportunities to riposte someone if you're aggressive enough.

[@strangeWaters]

It's funny to me when gamers say "netcode" because it's not a word programmers use. I guess there's "networking"... that covers a lot of different things tho. Anyway netcode is an extremely hard problem. You can get it wrong, but even if you get it right, you can't really do anything about latency or packet drops. If somebody is 60ms away from you, you're gonna have to wait 60ms for their button presses to reach you. You can't predict when exactly a person is going to press a button, how would the computer know? Then when the information reaches you, the game has to actually deal with it; it basically needs to rewind its simulation, apply the change in a past state, and then fast forward back to the current time. While it fasts forward, it also has to internally replay all the stuff you've done since then so your actions don't get eaten. As you can imagine, that sort of logic can be very tricky to keep track of, especially when you're writing game code that needs to be high performance, on a deadline. Plus you probably to do some sort of smoothing so that characters don't seem to jump around. But you gotta be careful, very subtle changes there can result in big changes to how gameplay feels. Pity the netcode programmers, they are poor souls trapped in a confusing relativistic world where separate but overlapping timelines unwind simultaneously in different locations.

[@titmit6940]

Easiest fix is to make an unique input for the back stab, like a throw input from fighting games, for the case of Elden ring, not the whole back stab problem.

[@TheHemeleien]

Great job man, your delivery was concise and always on point and your suggestions are remarkably simple but intriguing. You got yourself a subscriber, keep it up.

[@thewulf777]

I have great internet speeds but a lot of packet loss, so in ds3, good fishers may as well be ds1 characters on my screen and it's hella frustrating. I really hope Elden Ring makes it around as difficult/skill based as Bloodborne (with better net code of course) because there isn't much I can do against fishers even in 3, and there's no clearcut counterplay like there was in 1 due to the packet loss. I constantly get yoinked 10ft or more from insane angles and even have been grabbed after major elevation changes, even when I personally don't see any connection issues between me and the other player.

[@ryzewaffl3_ttv66]

You don't need Parry's anymore. All you need is...Moonveil.

[@DreamskyDance]

In my opinion face-backstabs will never be eliminated no matter how good your netcode is. Peer to peer connection is bound to have some latency, if they include more regions for matchmaking that may help a bit but not completely... what is some regions dont have that many players at a given time ? Then they will turn on cross-region matchmaking and match with higher ping with others. And also you just cant say to people not in US or whatever.. "sorry you cant play multiplayer because you live in wrong country". Imho.. best solution for face-stabs would be to introduce some kind of "new" critical mechanic like pommel hit or special kick or elbon in the face... so backstab failed, because target turned, but still a critical hit was made just to the face...

[@hobosorcerer]

You could just have melee attacks from behind deal more damage, and do away with the grab animation.

[@alysoncardoso6684]

they would be gone on delay based or rollback netcode,but i doubt from would do those

[@RanOutOfSpac]

@@alysoncardoso6684 We do not speak of delay based netcode… remove it from your memory so that no one can be reminded of those horrors!

[@alysoncardoso6684]

@@RanOutOfSpac it's a nightmare to even consider it but it would be the easier of the two for from to implement

[@RanOutOfSpac]

@@alysoncardoso6684 I’d legitimately prefer the current netcode system not gonna lie. Can you imagine 12 frames of delay while fighting multiple enemies when someone just happens to invade you? Oh god.

[@samwise2877]

Awesome breakdown, I've always had curiosity on the details on this mechanic, appreciate it ❤️

[@shoutykenneth5115]

I've heard an interesting idea for a simple fix being to buff the damage on the actual missed backstab thrust attack. Dunno if it would work, but it's cool that people are thinking about alternative work arounds.

[@owlvard]

if the stab was a sweep that might be a bit useful, but as it stands the stab itself rarely lands so that wouldn't really fix the issue at all imo. That said, if they recognize the issue they should fix the core issue and not work around it.

[@Amir0]

Moveset/Mechanical disadvantages would unfortunately still make it really not worth it, unless they made it do a stupid amount, which would be silly. Thing is that changing damage amounts is a Band-Aid solution in a lot of cases, for example how ultras in DS3 are still very much outclassed by daggers that net 1/10th of the damage of them on an r1(They don't have 2 hit combos).

[@hobosorcerer]

Removing backstabs entirely & just letting melee attacks deal more damage from behind might work, despite having its own set of potential balance issues.

[@vyor8837]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler I mean... Magic also exists.

[@vyor8837]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler pyromancy most certainly requires free aim to be good. Or knowledge of combos.

[@Sunstrider._]

Great coffee video to watch in the morning. Good job man.

[@wittlekitty3174]

Im still all for removing backstabs, at least for PvP.. They're problematic for many reasons, frustrating and feel cheap. I rather replace backstabs with an increase in damage taken from the back, so you are no longer locked into an animation that allows your opponent to reposition afterwards and do it all over again.

[@boinjoin3174]

Scrub talk. you say that but forgot to insert ganks,magic and parry spammers.All i read from that is pure garbage.Btw the invicibility frame is very usefull.It seems to me that your coment is from a ganker point of view,im talking from an invaders point of view.We need tools to eliminatenon skilled spamers. Your last line only shows that you learned nothing so please dont say to remove backstabbs because its nonsense.

[@waltersullivan2727]

Great idea give shield turtles all the power.

[@boinjoin3174]

@@waltersullivan2727 Indeed.These players only want the obvious without thinking further consequences.Clearly the new player base that follow into dks series are puffies that prefer things on easy mode all the freaking time.

[@CriminalizeObesity]

@@boinjoin3174 Cool whataboutisms, shame nobody had those in mind whatsoever as they're not in mind. Why not be creative and try to endorse the creation of other turtle-breaking means instead of just begging for broken- oh, sorry- "deep and professional" backstabs?

[@classicandy5317]

Scrub git gud🥴

[@Scullcat]

Amazing content great insight into these systems, I didn't really understand all the checks and stuff before.

[@rahtsnake144]

if they're going to stick with the nerfs to skill and depth in pvp (ahem, to fishing) in ER, they could at least make the grab fail animation as quick as it was in ds3. you get punished sooo hard in ER for a missed bs, usually resulting in death just because you tried to implement a cool supposed-mechanic to your play. if they wanted to remove backstabs in pvp they should have just done that, not left it in the game while simultaneously rending it useless. ER was made to please redditors/new fans, and yet they still complain about the difficulty. meanwhile the vets have to sit back and watch their favorite game series reduced to one shot weapon arts and macro spacing. edit: forgot to mention the fact that players are now unable to redirect failed bs grabs. why FS WHY!!

[@yugo543]

This video is amazing. I hope this gets spread out, from needs to change ER stabs

[@paulalanis3352]

“Backstabs now almost never happen in PVP.” Hot take: GOOD It was getting frustrating watching everyone in every souls game play passively so they could just fish for backstabs, now they need to either grow a pair and risk parrying or actually use the mechanics of the fucking game.

[@thesilentsociety3252]

Bingo

[@lucca4957]

Agree! for me Backstabs is the one mechanic that makes the series look like some average fight game, for me it is not coherent with the amazing pvp game that it is.

[@WorthlessBailey]

@metrikable yep, you've actually played pvp in the souls games. agreed.

[@tetermc]

Finally someone said it.

[@tetermc]

@metrikable Problem with that logic is that backstabs are easy to get. Making them more difficult should make the game harder, shouldn't it?

[@szymon657]

great video again! thx Amir

[@thisisjames4474]

As far as the animations are concerned, I always loved DS2 because the receiver doesn't just snap into a stoic stance. They get the ol knee kick that makes it sell better. Even 3 didn't do that. It always took me out of it when my character was just pop up right in front of my enemy's weapon as a favor.

[@RanOutOfSpac]

This. I still think the concept of backstabs is really dumb, but the way Ds2 did it made the most sense hands down visually. Getting stunned by a quick jab before being locked in just seems so much more “correct” than just becoming completely oblivious to the opponent who was right in front of you lol.

[@BioTheHuman]

Right, the better DS2 backstab visuals where you get stabbed in the back by a whip 🗿

[@coralinethegunslinger1138]

This is such a good video!

[@hesiolite]

Bloodborne's is the best in my opinion, it makes more sense since a backstab is supposed to be a surprise attack when the opponent is not looking/lost track of you. Just patch burritos(the r1 + visceral combo) and dead/ ghost angles and it's good.

[@coryyoung7544]

It ended up being the worst actually because if you have splash or wide attacks it could still count, the best and worst example is the stake driver I've gotten a 2 ko with one heavy and also staggered the host who was to my side facing me, unlike the DS system which was still kinda bs it was just way too unpredictable.

[@GreenEyedDazzler]

Blood bornes is the least consistent and most frustrating to be hit by

[@dextervepps8794]

The backstab attempt animation is something I wish it was possible to disable. Like, a personal reverse jester chest piece. Instead of making it impossible to be backstabbed, making it impossible to backstab in the first place. The amount of times in ds3 a regular swing would've been fine but I got the weird half swing of the attempt is astronomical.

[@varsa507]

Or use another button instead of the attack button for backstabs. X being the best choice

[@dextervepps8794]

@@varsa507 not a bad idea. A short press instead of a tap would work too i think, though It would be less reactable

[@the_Red_Star]

6:48 Sekiro did something like this. Throws always looked janky cause two actors that can be at varying distances and angles from each other are forcibly aligned instantly. To compensate, Wolf instantly manhandles the victim when the throw begins, and that jarring teleport (usually) gets lost among all the violence. That resulted in a game full of throws that blended in nicely with the normal movement. Sadly, most of what we've seen indicates that elden ring won't do this. Riposte/backstab animations make it very obvious when the throw engages, instantly overriding the position, rotation and animation of both actors, even before the two actually make any contact.

[@gabeandrews365]

Great video man, really explanatory :)

[@weltallelite]

I’d personally rather they make back stabs very difficult to pull off, or remove them entirely in PVP unless they can really hammer out the issues with latency and people being able to take advantage of bugs. At least then being able to exploit a glitch won’t result in one player losing most or all of their health.

[@federicobellavista634]

Surprise! There other glitches and bugs, not backstab related, that do the same trick. Fromsoft, y'all. Butchering basic PvP mechanics since 2009

[@solderingiron1008]

Great video, Amir! Really hoping this gets seen by the devs

[@JustinFetters]

I really love the idea of a grabbing animation for a backstab to make it more aesthetically pleasing. And If they can't make it a better backstab design, just bring back ds3 and add the grabbing animation

[@TengrioftheCrimsonSky]

Well said and shown especially for your channel size

[@CapitanSonaglio]

Finally, this makes much more sense than "lol backstab's broken bro, FS can't do its job". Yes, the fact that ashes of war/long cast animations and crouching completely prevents it is a clear issue, and since they're kinda the "new thing" I tend to think that FS was still working on it when releasing that specific build for the NT (and hope that these months until release will be more than enough to optimize it). But in my opinion, since backstabs have this high risk to result "unnatural" in its outcome, thinking of directly removing it for pvp (aka, there's no trigger area or hitzone for the animation on enemy player) wouldn't be completely absurd or detrimental, especially if they improve on all the other systems like parry (yea, netcode might still cause "unnatural" issues here) and posture damage (if very well balanced between weapon posture damage and armor posture resistance) being a thing, even more so if they implemented a bonus health and posture damage when hitting a (narrow) rear hitzone, something like 30 degrees, as someone suggested. I think that pvp would work a little better this way, hope I haven't said any bs here lol.

[@temporaltomato3021]

Yoo, it's you again lol. I was thinking something similar. Maybe instead of changing the way ER backstabs work (aside from fixing the outright bugs), we could just have damage players take from behind increased. So tighter angle for initiation + angle check on stab like we have already, plus a 50%-100% increase on damage taken on the back in general or less depending on the type of attack or something. That way we could also choose to charge up some kind of huge spell or attack on actually unaware players as another option. Could get messy in larger battles, but so far ER is max 4 players per world anyway.

[@temporaltomato3021]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler I mean you'd already be pretty screwed in the situation you described anyway, but you have a point. It would also help kill hosts committed to running though, which is another frustrating thing. Most proposed solutions have to decide who to please and who to displease, because there are more people who just avoid pvp because it feels unfair or janky (usually due to backstab quirks) than there are people who regularly discuss in-depth the mechanics of backstabs. But yeah, my idea probably isn't the best.

[@temporaltomato3021]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler I actually totally agree. I'd add though that I think what came of Bloodborne pvp for example (in terms of online activity) was more what From intended anyway. More of invaders casually playing the bad guy in someone's playthrough than every encounter being some sort of competitive match. Could be talking out my ass, but I think either From or Miyazaki have commented on it. I'm personally okay with losing invasions quite often if it means I get to play the "bad guy" role in these unique games, and I doubt From is interested in balancing for the hardcore crowd in the first place. Who the hell knows what's gonna happen in the coming months and years, but if there's an exodus of ultra tryhards from ER, it's probably a step closer to From's vision anyway. I wouldn't wish for it, as I have been that guy before, but there are just way way more casual players frustrated with pvp jank than there are people like us talking in-depth about backstab mechanics. And I don't know if it's relevant, but I did love Bloodborne pvp despite the things you said which are true.

[@CapitanSonaglio]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler Aside from the fact that making fights against ganks easier shouldn't be a balancement priority (because is part of the risk of invading and the "righteous" unfair approach from host&friends) in my opinion, I think that lack of BS i-frames can be counterbalanced by hypothetical posture broken riposte. And this would feel way more natural, as I see it, then snappy backstab. Luckily enough, parry spam and R1 spam are both more punishable then ever in ER, thanks to non-melee ashes of war and jump attacks for the former, and improved poise+shielding+counterstrike system for the latter. And probably is this wide variety of possible approaches that can make backstabs expendable, if their unnatural visual feeling is such a concern.

[@HollowTomajikate]

7:30 Fighting games use Roll-Back net code. Meaning the server thinks ahead if you frame by frame. If you are walking it assumes you will keep walking until it receives a different signal. Moving at 60fps in ideal conditions you won't notice the correction. When there is lag it can get messy if animations with long frames play like a KO slow-down. It can revoke your KO cause they actually blocked and was rolled back.

[@LoverofChildren]

Honestly, having played soulsborne pvp since the height of Dark Souls Prepare to Die, seeing backstabs slowly die out is actually very pleasing. Backstabs never took any more skill than quick movement, and with Dark Souls 3 they were turned into a very niché thing that you'd only use to punish players who were completely incompetent. Remove backstabs, period.

[@boinjoin3174]

backstabbs never took skill any more than quick movement he says..you can bait for one,you can escape frm one in dk1 also.What are you talking about?You players that keep deny it never ever learned that the backstabb itself from dk1 actually was the main thing to avoy by logical reasons but what you people dont actually see is what that mechanick did to a specific type of players who have accept it even if was strongly denied first time they pvp and guess what?they mastered it so well to the point that demaded from them very quick reflexes,baits,escapes and pivots and tbh,thats fuckin skill.And if you think these kind of players cant beat you without bs you,you are deeply wrong.Backstabbs should remain,we need good tools to deal with gankers wich btw they are increasing and based on that,its unfair they are giving tools to gankers and remove from invaders.We need it to punish parry spammers,also magic spammers,and big weps that does a shit ton of damage punish as well.I LOVE backstabbs,hope they keep it,if removed,the game itself isnt dark souls like anymore,only fashion. hoo i remeber fighting alot of players that HATE backstabbs in dks1 but the irony resides in the fact that when they start the fight,they where the ones actually fishing for that easy damage,but as soon they saw things wherent that easy as they think,backstabbs where awfull for them like some where saying in steam chat..Hypocrisy to say the least. I would agree that some damage output was a bit too high like for instan getting bsed with a rapier 40 dex with darkmoon blade and hornet ring,or like great club,yea,that hurts quite a bit specially if was crystal path,but hey,isnt what makes that game beautifull by making you fear death in a way others can t? Just me tho.sorry english

[@EdgeOfDarknezz]

I hope elden ring network test will go to release, at highier latency it will not look this stupid like it looked like, in well... All previous titles.

[@crownedoasis2923]

Yeah back stabs are stupid

[@DamnZodiak]

Hard disagree. Backstabbing good players always took skill and ads another level of depth to PvP. If implemented well, they make the game healthier by providing a reliable tool to punish bad play through skill expression. I'd hate to see them die.

[@facemite]

@@DamnZodiak dude in d1 and 2nd they literally worked off the backstabbers screen leading to tons of front and far stabs as well as completely crushing slower weapons it was hands down the worst part of pvp.

[@Gucc111]

I learned more in the first minute of this video than I did in 5 years of getting my ass kicked online. Thanks Amir.

[@Okoii]

As someone who has been a victim of backstabs hundreds of times across all souls games i actually like the new Backstab system in Elden Ring. Maybe make backstab attempts less punishing on the person attempting them but it's better than the teleporting lagstabs of previous titles from a dude on mcdonalds wifi in a 4th world country. I think Dark souls 3 had the best set up so far minus the front stabbing.

[@hctaz]

The best way that fighting games handle checks like this is via rollback net code, but it’s probably not feasible to implement such a thing in a mostly single player game. Rollback basically allows the server a small window of time to verify inputs from both player’s games before deciding what happens. It the outcome isn’t the same as the client side version, the game will rollback the state of the game to be correct based on the timing of the inputs. So for example, you could start a backstab on your screen but your opponent successfully moved out of your reach on their screen prior to you starting the backstab. Your screen would briefly start the backstab animation before the server checks the timing of the inputs and corrects itself. You would get a bit of an animation jump as you’d now be swinging a light attack, but the rollback is usually only a few frames with good connection. It removes stuttering delay-based systems because a delay isn’t needed as the system will check and correct itself if the inputs don’t match up with the visuals on a player’s screen. It’s sorta like having a magical referee capable of rewinding time briefly if things don’t line up properly.

[@lunarbreeze5019]

DS2 really saved PvP from being utter garbage, it's no surprise future games copied the base mechanics of grab style backstabs and 2 hit stun limits.

[@alexepic3255]

12:44 lol, gabri has become one of my favorites elden ring pvp channels. Never noticed him like one of your patreons lmao!

[@pockystyx4087]

As someone playing since Demon's Souls on the PS3; backstabs have always felt like the jankiest part of these games combat system. Doesn't really help that the online performance of the games can range from ok to dookie on a fight-by-fight basis. From a design point of view i understand it; try to implement the RPG mechanic of a back attack and punish sluggish enemies, but it just always was weird to me how awkward of a mechanic it has been in practice. Funny enough; in Dark Souls 2 I at least liked the various little animations each weapon class got for backstabs and parries. As for my opinion on what each game was like to backstab in: Demon's Souls it was problematic, in Dark Souls it was pretty much what ended PvP ever being serious at all, in Dark Souls 2 it was annoying at worst, and in Dark Souls 3 I cannot count the amount of times a failed backstab animation got me or an opponent killed lol. Ironically; even though I personally felt it's PvP overall lackluster, Bloodborne at least tried something new with it. If it were up to me I'd try and come up with some other way for back attacks to work outside of the usual 'run-around' a guy and stab. I like the idea of R1s not combo-ing into oblivion, poise existing again, casting being allowed to be worth the investment, and jumping attacks changing how mobile we can be in a fight; it would be nice to try and spruce up how backstabs are approached.

[@boinjoin3174]

Dark Souls it was pretty much what ended PvP ever being serious at all,you say. You clearly dont know what the actual fuck you are talking about.

[@MCWaffles2003-1]

Honestly is keeping backstabs in active combat all that good anyways? A backstab is supposed to be a surprise attack to initiate or immediately end an encounter before it starts. All keeping backstabs at the forefront of the game does is put a bunch of i-frames in the game which is immersion breaking and nonsensical as well as continue to reduce the meta to chasing after backs. I'd much prefer timing and spacing dominate fights to back hunting. 8:00 this is presented as a problem as if a character turning mid backstab shouldn't negate they get stabbed in the back, why is this a problem?

[@dragondaddykushala7133]

I'm honestly glad backstabs are hard af to pull of people always go for them and made combat stale and invasions too easy what I DO think they need to fix is the gank stunlock that shit crazy

[@ghorstbusters6238]

Quality info, subscribed.

[@takaharu2879]

I really dont care for backstabs and do wonder how many pvp Player there really are in the souls community who do.

[@Hyperdisk]

I don't but some of my friends loved them. Almost their entire plan for pvp was abuse the backstab as much as possible. It was almost purely bs vs toggle escape with them. They hated people using any healing though. Didn't like pvp'ing with them, but doing pve was always fun

[@WorthlessBailey]

it's a necessary mechanic, one class of weapon will out shine them all if backstabs cease to exist.

[@bryanblaze4982]

What do you think about this type of system, not in code btw. 1. Get behind the opponent & press the button within the right range/angle, but instead of a wind-up there's no animation. 2.Check your end to make sure it connected 3. If true then check their end 4. If true force an animation, like broken & fallen down on their end 5. Then, forward this back to your end & display said animation 6. After the animation begins on your end start a timer 7a. If you start the backstab/whatever before the timer runs out on your end it will connect 7b. If the timer runs out nothing happens on either end. There's lots of ways to do this too. You could even add in a check animation only you see when starting the whole thing. This can be done to keep people from button mashing into backstabs. After getting behind them & pressing a button the animation shows like s spark or something & when it bursts you hit it again, but if you were button mashing it'd fail because you hit the button too soon. Hope all this made sense & please ask if you have any questions!

[@vithorsa]

Thank you Amir.

[@PinguExpert]

Welcome Vithor

[@cowboy2631]

As someone who enjoys invading a lot (even though I'm terrible at it), Critical attacks are crucial in fighting multiple opponents or ganks. It allows one to punish a reckless or overly aggressive enemy, get some s and lay off the heat a bit. With Elden Ring invasions being limited to worlds with an active summon, I sure hope backstabs are fixed and balanced before launch.

[@vitorvena]

I still think Bloodborne had the best system, just patch a few issues like weird "dead" angles thing and being able to combo a light into the backstab and boom, its literally perfect!

[@7enet268]

I was looking forward to this video. Thanks for this.

[@avipinhasov302]

Honestly i don't even like the back stab system .... Its very much okay for PvE , but PvP should be done from the front , getting backstabed in PvP would always feel akward . The thing you said about grabs is very interesting tho .... Would have been nice to for weapons to have special un-parriable grab attacks to punish bad plays , roll / attack spamming , bad positioning ect.....

[@edgartoniolo1819]

I loved the video amir, thank you!

[@mewmanc6188]

This is THE video on backstabs. Hopefully it blows up and gets spread everywhere. Thank you Amir.

[@Johtho]

great video with a very easy to understand breakdown, hope they get to see this or don't need to. regardless definitely seems to me the poise and backstabs need worked on before release. Hope they do

[@Sciarru]

BEAUREFOH!!! Hopely during PVP people will stop obsessively fishing backstabs.

[@Feanor1988bis]

Very informative as usual. I'd really like your input on this issue was taken into account.

[@javax6]

That modded demonstration at 5:50 and the end is absolute evidence of how bad things will be if things don't change in Elden Ring. The behaviour is exactly the same as the network test. You can see immediately how all the concerns people have are validated.

[@iota-09]

In that example, the opponent is doing nothing before the backstab initiated, right? Then... Isn't that good? Are backstabs a punish mechanic for inefficient use of slow actions(charged attacks, non-aoe WAs, heals, etc), or not? If that is indeed the case, then... Well, that worked in my eyes.

[@javax6]

​@@iota-09 Do you mean exactly at 5:50? Being able to turn into the backstab in this one scenario is reasonable and is actually similar to 4:27 which is the behaviour in DS3. The problems that appear, and this is also Amir's point in general, is that attempting to fix a facestab has lead to other issues, the most important ones we can see is no estus punish at 5:52 and no parry punish at 5:54. The amazing thing about this modded demo is that the behaviour is exactly the same as the network test and we have limited examples from the footage captured. Being able to replicate it in a live game is great to validate what concerns people have. Myself and others don't want to see a pvp where players can behave recklessly by healing in your face or just parry spam. It really does affect the game badly.

[@iota-09]

@@javax6 then again, while you can't estus punish with a backstab, you still can with an R1, then the question becomes: should an improper be punishable with a backstab? I guess it depends on the average backstab damage...

[@majinzombiegenocider]

Incredibly detailed analysis. Thank you

[@DejectedCat]

I much rather have no backstab at all against players, than what the network test has.

[@Soumein]

One of the things I like about Dark Souls 2 is how the sword back stab slices the back of the knees to knock them down, then does an executive chop/slash. It looks cool and feels cool. I think it would be neat if the backstab startup animation was like that: some kind of "that makes sense" way to start up a backstab (compared to DS2's punch), especially since the game automates between Light Attack and Backstab. But that doesn't take into account pvp and networking woes. There is a game I play(ed) called Grand Chase which has Grab attacks that work very similar to DS1's: hold forward next to an enemy and press attack. As long as you're in a neutral ground animation (walking, running, or dashing, incomparison to a jump) you pull off the grab, even teleporting the victim back into the animation. This has some repurcussions however, as both players can initiate a grab against each other. In this instance, neither player becomes each other's victim, and end their grab animation attack harmlessly. However, this means you can, and must, do another grab afterward, because otherwise you'll get grabbed again right after. Despite all this, it's one of the few ways to guarantee damage against very laggy players. In any case, grabs seem really hard to program in. Either you make it client sided to make it feasible in a lag possible environment and get teleporting, or you make it so hard or risky to pull off because of how powerful it can be that's it's a hindrance.

[@armorparade]

i really appreciate these deep dives like this. i had just been talking to friends, explaining the history of how this mechanic works throughout the series, and it's really pleasant to see you lay it all out in a nicely presented video like this! i'd be all in for something resembling 3's backstabs with greater visual clarity. in fact, they could even make them more lenient than 3's if they adjust animations to make things look less confusing and unfair to the uninformed- a sort of compromise between 2 and 3. i'm not the type to gatekeep or anything, but i will say it's saddening to watch people who don't understand any of how this stuff works complain about how backstabs controlled everything despite there being plenty of ways to protect yourself from them in any souls game even on high latency, none of which involving the "exploits" and "glitches" that people love to fuss about. backstabs to me have always been a means to punish bad movement, greedy offense, or simply to call out certain attacks, and it's been disappointing to see them get weaker with every game instead of becoming more legible at a first glance. i'm someone who likes dks1 backstabs a lot, if only because of how they allowed for such a unique, deep player vs player game, but i've been willing to adjust in each game, and i'm willing to adjust here, but i've been absolutely heartbroken watching how far they've fallen in ER. **as for deeper solutions**: i feel like the fact that these games are not lockstep means that there's not much you can do to perfectly hammer away the issue, but i do hope that something can be done to better resolve high latency interactions in ways that don't lead From to totally butcher things like backstabs. part of me wonders if they could nerf rolls to the point where they lack frame 1 invul- but i can't imagine that'd be a terribly popular change.

[@pridefulworm]

I liked the ds1 Lag stab shoulder seeking meta. It was fucking fun, imo more fun than other games even if ridiculous.

[@RanOutOfSpac]

I’m actually shocked that the community is upset about these changes. I’m in the boat that backstabs should just be removed. I just think that even on paper, the idea is stupid. Getting “surprised” by someone you know is there that just walks behind you is just conceptually silly. Being locked into it is even sillier. In every Dark Souls game and Demon Souls, backstabs have been a dominant strategy whether it be in PvP and especially PvE. Seriously, in PvE, whenever you fight a humanoid enemy, when or why would you not fish for backstabs? It does nutty damage, it’s completely invincible for some ridiculous reason (except in ds2 where it just reduces damage taken by a lot), and scores you a knockdown. Then add on the Hornet Ring and/or a high crit weapon… Easy PvE. When it comes to PvP, I know people want them punish parry spam and I get it. My problem is; backstabs can punish a hell of a lot more than that. Jumping attacks are nearly useless in Ds3, for example (ya know, the intended method to punish parries) because of how easy it is to just run around them and go for the booty. A heavy weapon’s R1 can be punished easily with a backstab if latency permits. God forbid they use an R2. The list goes on. I also know people want them to deal with ganks. Imo, relying on a single tool that grants high damage and invincibility is lame, but I abused the hell out of it for that reason too, so I get it. Buuut, Invaders should have a hard time dealing with ganks. BS fishing only works on really bad players, so it’s just an anti-noob strategy in group fights. Again, kinda lame. I have issues with parries too, but mainly in conjunction with the hornet ring and weapon swaps. Being one shotted at full HP by a parry is a bit much for how easy they are to pull off (latency permitting). Since Elden Rings backstabs are so unreliable, I’d rather they be removed so I don’t accidentally initiate an attempt when the enemy is running away (happens a lot in Ds3). But, I know that’s not gonna happen.

[@jarlnooch1882]

there is so much wrong with this comment that i dont even know where to start, its like you just shat all over my walls and now i have to clean it.

[@RanOutOfSpac]

@@jarlnooch1882 Shat all over it. With KNOWLEDGE.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

@@RanOutOfSpac Hell yeah!

[@bhuwin6186]

I can feel the "working as intended" upon us

[@shanemayberry8092]

I just feel after 3 versions of backstab meta we could do with dropping it for a bit. More styles of play will open up if BS is not the OP and preferred way to OTK cause of latency or cheese.

[@jordonkautz1470]

Indeed. I'd love to see pvp fights with more than just parry and backstab fishing.

[@MrAlekking]

i think placing the backstab button on the rt/ r2 button instead of rb/ r1 buttons will help with removing the accidental back stab when chasing down enemies

[@vikemrequiem9198]

I think that the backstab always was been a really anoying mechanic in the souls saga, overall with the players that the only thing that they do is backstab fishing. And now in Elden Ring there is a lot of new attacks, so the players will have to know how to use them... because they can't hunt asses any longer XD.

[@mumbles4763]

The back stab is rare and you have to get a total drop on them. I have managed a few rare ones but it was during invasion attempts and me dropping on them with the mimic disguise. My best advice for this. If you are being invaded. Don't stop for anything. Keep moving. If they get a successful ambush. You deserve the death. Also I have had people regrettably bring me into annunfair duel in a dungeon. While i was politely leaving they begun their attack so I couldn't cut myself from their world. I styled on them 2v1. The game has its wonderful moments of fighting when its not a back stab comtest.

[@witherik]

When you mentioned improving netcode, do you think rollback would be a viable netcode solution for ER pvp?

[@simple_most788]

No it would just make greatswords unreactable on medium latency, latency based netcode with a ping filter is what is optimal for souls pvp

[@Amir0]

I'm looking into stuff like that, It's kinda difficult to say as there's probably more too it then "just doing roll back" there is a lot that goes into it specific to types of player interaction.

[@owlvard]

it's a complex topic for sure, but for elden ring due to having to consider resources etc the best we can hope for is better regional matchmaking. (aka more regions than just japan)

[@CharlotteMimic]

Rollback was the first thing I thought of when Amir mentioned better netcode, lol. It would be cool as hell if Elden Ring had rollback (or if someone made a rollback hack for an older Souls game). Ultimately, though, I think it's unlikely for two reasons. First, Souls games are much more complex than most fighting games (e.g. Skullgirls, Killer Instinct, Melee), at least in terms of size of geography and number of actors. Most fighting games will have 2 main characters, up to 4 assists, and 1 or 2 projectiles onscreen at max, while Souls could have as many as 4 main characters, each casting spells with many projectiles, and 10 or more enemies roaming around. This leads to more complexity when clients have to "roll back" and catch themselves up (meaning it needs *more computing power*). RNG is also called far more often in Souls games (enemy movements being constantly polled, as compared to single RNG events like Faust item throws) meaning *RNG synchronization between clients is harder* to make work. And I don't know of any rollback implementations with *more than 2 clients providing inputs*, so that would be a new problem to solve, too. Second, there's the fact that rollback is not an industry-standard technology, especially in Japan. And add to that PvP is not the main point of a Souls game, so less time and resources are spent working on it (like how single-player modes in fighting games often get less resources). Far easier to say "delay-based netcode has worked in the past" and leave it at that. I think rollback is possible to implement for Souls games, and would tangibly improve the PvP, but I also think it's way harder of a problem and way more work than FROMSOFT is likely to commit to.

[@zaxmaxlax]

@@CharlotteMimic Sometimes an enemie/boss dies but stay alive in another player screen, like the transforming pus of man on the roof at high wall, sometimes the hollow gets killed before transforming but still transforms in the host world. I saw it happen once and there are plenty of "thank you dark souls" videos here on youtube.