An AWFUL Analogy | This is what cognitive dissonance looks like

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[@andydee1304]

It's quite offencive too. My brother was an alcoholic and there's nothing he wanted more than to not be an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a disease and it killed my brother. Alcoholics have a wide spectrum of issues, none of which deserve punishment. Punishing a person because they're sick is reprehensible.

[@Ironsuaba]

Maybe instead of punishing the victim we should punish those who make alcohol, promote it and make it appealing to use?

[@bevwinn1369]

@@Ironsuaba or we don't punish anyone... punishment is just an abbreviated style of hell.

[@vtblda]

@@Ironsuaba I think that punishment is not a good solution for any of the issues here. Remember that punishment is a way to "condition" behavior as opposed to "reward". This is a way to simple fashion to characterize human choices and human behavior.

[@mars_12345]

Punishing anyone is reprehensible. Retribution punishment is very basal, savage and inhuman. It surves no purpose other than fill the joy-meter of those who want the other person to suffer. No matter what that persone has done, adding more suffering is not a solution. Ever.

[@marcusreading3783]

@@Ironsuaba That really doesnt help. Banning things like alcohol does not work and thats basically what your suggesting. Better to provide understanding and resources to those who suffer from those issues rather than do anything to exasperate it.

[@emmajoy2192]

I've been sober almost four years and this man's understanding of addiction is saddening

[@istvansipos9940]

well done, Emma

[@rationalityrules]

Well done, Emma :)

[@elijahsmith226]

Well done, Emma

[@dr.floridamanphd]

Congrats on the sobriety. You’re more powerful than your compulsions. Sadly, most people don’t understand addiction because psychology and psychiatry are poorly understood by most people.

[@emmajoy2192]

[@GRAHFXENO]

I'm an atheist that has served my country for 15 years in the army, served my community by volunteering at the local hospital and I do everything I can to help my fellow ape regardless of ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, sex, gender identity or sexual orientation and I try my best to leave this world better than I found it...but I'm apparently pretty much like an alcoholic because I don't believe in this one guy's specific God claim. Excellent analogy. 100%. 10/10. IGN Game of the year

[@casuallydebunked284]

"IGN Game of the year"... Lmfao

[@octs609]

FUCKING GOLDEN LOL

[@GRAHFXENO]

​@Jay Gee I'm not an Atheistic-Statist. I'm an Atheist Humanist. I didn't serve the government, I served my fellow countrymen and our allies. The government just gave me a paycheck. As for arbitrary laws; I would gladly break or protest any unlawful law or order that would cause harm to people

[@GRAHFXENO]

@Jay Gee I can't be serious? You're the one making assumptions about my character and motivations and sticking a label on me. Just because I pointed out that you we're wrong doesn't somehow make me the naïve one.

[@Directlite664]

Good to know you love your people, but you also hate things in your life right? I can explain it with 3 points. Firstly, 'Love' does not have a fixed meaning. Our love for our wives is completely different to our mothers' or our childrens'. We love hockey, we love ourselves, etc. These are all a description given to a good feeling. Even though we love our wives and hockey, we have different feelings towards them right? Thats the first part. Secondly, there are things in the world that you hate right? Everyone of us hate many things in our life. And everyone of us love many things in our life. So my second point is, love is conditional. Conditional to what? Conditional to whatever standards you set for it. Third point is, consider a judge, who decreed capital punishment to someone. He certainly does not love his defendant . But does that make him a non loving person? He love his family and kids. He love something and hate other things and go neutrel on someother things. So just like everyother feelings, his love is conditional and his hate is conditional. Same way, God's love is conditional. For you to attain it, you have to work for it. This is the right way for love to exist. Does this make sense?

[@Phreemunny]

Impressive; he managed to either misunderstand or mischaracterize both atheism and alcoholism in one video

[@QuintarFarenor]

Throw in Christianity and Hell in there too and he got quite the record there.

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

i'll go with both. misunderstand AND then still mischaracterize what he understood.

[@UTU49]

Phree. This guy is efficient AF.

[@NotAPacifist825]

Yes this Lucas is a horrible person on so many levels.

[@martifingers]

Yes indeed. I detect some projection also - in his absolute certainty that that atheists are in denial, it's almost as though it's a defence against the possibility his faith may not be justified.

[@seankeaney823]

My first thought on the Alcoholic and bottle analogy is that it fits the “believer’s” relationship with their “god” well.

[@FakingANerve]

Same.

[@cobrasys]

Same. Came here to say exactly that.

[@tropicalcatdetective]

Yeah, it feels like it might be an example of projection. It's the believer sub-consiously attributing their own situation and relationship to the world around them onto the non-believer.

[@mosaicinn5761]

Nope.. Unlike alcoholics, believers usually claim their bottles love others and then throw their bottles to others.. Then threaten you with hell if you jump out of the way..

[@pencilpauli9442]

Surprised he's never heard of Holy Intoxication, or being "drunk in the Holy Spirit". Those familiar with the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam and other Sufi writings will know of the analogy of the love of God being like that of a drunk. But that's Islam and far be it for me to get into comparative religion.

[@dechskaison2497]

Good on you for calling this out. It's a behavior too often seen. Believers want to justify the punishment we deserve.

[@casuallydebunked284]

I've made this channel to hold no punches :D

[@SergeantBase]

@@casuallydebunked284 these episodes have been great!

[@cjaym]

My sister is a believer and I once asked her about how she could be happy in heaven knowing people were in hell. She told me that her hope is that when she gets to heaven, something will happen that will allow her to see the justice in people like me being sent to hell.

[@zacharyberridge7239]

@@casuallydebunked284 fictional God bless you!

[@fbarnea]

@@cjaym lol so you do deserve to go to hell, she just can't see it yet. That is so twisted and convoluted. Considering she probably genuinely loves you as well she is probably very conflicted and confused with this whole thing.

[@michaelchampion936]

"Most witches don't believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don't believe in them. They know them too well". Terry Pratchett, Witches abroad.

[@josephang9927]

Cringetches

[@chameon378]

"Wizards don’t believe in gods in the same way that most people don’t find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they’re there, they know they’re there for a purpose, they’d probably agree that they have a place in a well-organized universe, but they wouldn’t see the point of believing, of going around saying, ‘O great table, without whom we are as naught.’ Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees." Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

[@RevilHermes]

As a non believer and non drinker, with my own religious, alcoholic mother, I was using alcoholism as analogy to faith. I was not expecting to hear that from them. In my country Jesus and booze comes as a package.

[@dr.floridamanphd]

Many drunks in the US are also religious.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

I bet you are also addicted to your desire to reject belief in unicorns.

[@Vhlathanosh]

@@dr.floridamanphd make it many drunks the world over.

[@bennybooboo6789]

The good old Jesus Juice

[@jonsmith7659]

@@dr.floridamanphd and then go to AA, where they are fed more god bullshit and told it will help them. Like the way Africans were enslaved by using the bible as justification and then claim that same bible was also justification for their freedom.

[@jackiesesthetics88]

Imagine saying these things and thinking you’re one of the “good guys”. Actually I can imagine it, I used to be an A hole Christian. Oh the cringe. They can still wake up though I promise. If I did, ANYONE can.

[@jackiesesthetics88]

@Blow Fly Without writing something super long and potentially boring I will say I couldn't shake the inconsistencies that the "free" gift of redemption through Christ also still requires you to be "obedient" and not sin, when I wasn't even totally sure what sins objectively were. Where it says Jesus says to cut off your hand if you can't stop sinning I was like okay this just doesn't make sense. I remember showering one day and I was like this is all Bull and people who wrote this book are straight up lying and making things up. This is an oversimplified version of a long journey to finally walk away but those are the main pieces that made this all fall apart for me. Thanks for asking by the way :).

[@deneb3525]

@Blow Fly A friend of mine asked me "If you took someone who had no prior knowledge of the bible, after reading the new testiment, what odds would they give that Christianity was just a cult that got lucky?" Over time, that evolved into, "what evidence could you give a rational, agnostic athiest with no bias towards believing in the supernatural, as proof of the supernatural, without resorting to logical fallicies?" After several years of research I finaly had to admit that without divine intervention, I wasn't going to be able to find any. So I walked away from what was arguably the largest piece of self identity I had.

[@antondovydaitis2261]

Imaginary Good is the Root of All Evil.

[@donnievance1942]

@XORRE What? Jackie J said nothing whatever that identifies her political philosophy. Personally, I have my doubts that you even understand what the term "neoliberalism" identifies, but unlike you, I won't project.

[@XcRunner1031]

#ImSorryForWhatISaidWhenIWasChristian One of my cringe Facebook posts popped up in my memories yesterday...oof.

[@justinthor5438]

I'm an alcoholic. "Once they're gone, he finally has what he wanted. A chance to drink without anyone bothering him." I'm trying to be generous, that's such self-serving interpretation of how an addict sees his addiction. It's so handy that alcoholics really just want to drink and just don't want anyone or anything else in their lives. "he finally has what he wanted". An addiction doesn't become your favorite thing, an addiction becomes a rot. It spreads like mold through a pantry. You can't get rid of the mold, and you start to taste it on everything. You know before you take a bite that it's going to be moldy, but you're starving. People don't know why you choose to eat it. People don't want to be around you because of the food you choose to eat. They leave. You're alone. But not quite alone, the mold still spreads. There's really just no heart in his analogy.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Yeah: it’s clear Lucas knows absolutely fuckall about alcoholism & is projecting the Christian hellfire & damnation narrative over this pathetically ignorant analogy. Sad.

[@rageofheaven]

Well said.

[@timeshark8727]

Its amazing that Lucas can talk so clearly with his head rammed that far up his own rear

[@dr.floridamanphd]

Ever heard a politician go on a self-righteous monologue? Same thing really.

[@pauligrossinoz]

When his head is in that position, the only thing coming out of his mouth is faeces.

[@page8301]

@@pauligrossinoz So nothing but feces are escaping his mouth.

[@MrSeedi76]

​@@pauligrossinoz that was disgusting and funny at the same time :).

[@myrddinwyllt3383]

Imagine you woke up tomorrow as a literal god. You were all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. Now, ask yourself what kind of a god you would be if you demanded the entire universe worship you. That alone is a good reason to never worship any deity.

[@renegadesofanarchy289]

I’d eliminate all suffering if that happened. And I wouldn’t ask for anyone to worship me.

[@UTU49]

@@renegadesofanarchy289 Any benevolent creator I COULD believe in, would not care whether or not anyone believed in Him or Her or It. Any benevolent creator I COULD believe in, would recognize the passion and sincerity in many atheists and scientists.

[@roadgoeseveron7128]

yeah and the misunderstanding of addiction is just sickening - really a very loving view

[@Pfoffie]

Up until now I didn’t think of it, but I just realized: being religious is like being an alcoholic. Dankä für d’Erkenntnis, Lukas!

[@lyndafjellman3315]

Most likely a "dry drunk"

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

More umlauts, please.

[@Pfoffie]

@@NeverTalkToCops1 das chani gärn machä; obwohl diä mäiste schwizer nöd umbedingt so vel vo denä machä. und wänn du das verstasch: näi das isch voll nöd min akzänt haha

[@teehee4096]

@@NeverTalkToCops1 have u ever heard of a place called switzerland ...

[@advorak8529]

@@teehee4096 oh, Switzerland, that’s a bank with number accounts. Well known for when you need to hide Nazi-gold, blood diamonds and drug money, right? But do their tellers really speak with Röckümlauts? (PS: of course I know CH, I’m from Europe.)

[@sasilik]

6:06 "Would you worship a god if it were real?" - I am just reading Charles Stross "Escape from Youkai Land" and there was perfect quote for that - "I grew up in a nonobservant household, raised atheist by default until I lost my disbelief. Now that I know the gods are real, I would never willingly engage in any act of worship - it only encourages the bastards."

[@matthewalan59]

Lucas is a reminder to those of us who value evidence and reason that one consequence of religious/ideological beliefs is that such beliefs can lead one into a state of vast and uncompromising stupidity. We need to actively struggle against such stupidity.

[@MyContext]

Let's say that Deflate (Lucus) is correct, that somehow in this mythological torture chamber people never change their minds and thus never get out; the very idea of such a monstrosity being the product of a supposed "all-loving entity" is as absurd as a square circle. This causes me to wonder about the sanity or honesty of such claimants. Is his God concept NOT omnipresent? The depiction presents the idea that his God concept is NOT present in hell. Christians constantly present contradictory notions.

[@WolfA4]

Modern Christians believe in a limited god these days, they say he's omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnisentient but within reason so as to avoid the obvious logical conflicts and paradoxes. They now say he's "maximally" present/potent/sentient.

[@MyContext]

@@WolfA4 which really doesn't say anything aa to what is to be expected that wouldn't be a point of imagination.

[@sharpienate]

@@WolfA4 With that kind of defense, apologists are just playing rhetorical word games so they can "win" arguments. Their beliefs aren't worth the words used to describe them.

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@WolfA4 How convenient for them.

[@jimass13]

I encountered an interesting idea recently which is that the love of God is an eternal fire, and that heaven and hell are the same place, with the only difference being that those in heaven are consumed in the fire and absorbed back into God whereas those in hell aren't consumed by the fire and therefore feel the resulting pain. The distinction between heaven and hell is whether you maintain your individuality in the presence of God. I'm an atheist btw and don't think any of this is real, I just like to try to make it make sense.

[@CPTDoom]

I took my first intellectual step toward atheism when my 8th grade Catholic catechism teacher told me that not only were my Protestant relatives going to Hell, but that they deserved to go there because they'd been exposed to "true religion" and still rejected it. Now I don't know what denomination of Christian this guy belongs to, but I do know whatever it is, millions of his fellow Christians think he's going to Hell for heresy. Is he really saying that if it turns out he was worshipping the wrong version of his god, he deserves to be in Hell and would never convert?

[@TheChannelling]

A couple of days ago I officially asked to be de-baptized. In italy you are considered a Catholic if you have been pedo-baptized and, since I am an atheist and I do not like what the church is doing, I do not want my name to be associated with anything they are doing. Anyway, the point is that my mum did not take it well. She was very sad, telling me I betray her and that I will end up burning in hell and I gave her one of the biggest disappointment in her life. I am still her son. I am still the same. I just do not want to be Christian and have a Christian wedding/funeral or whatever ritual. And she was disappointed. I think this is one, for me, of the most painful cognitive dissonance religious people do: they somehow thing of them self as righteous people saying very horrible things that hurts deeply. I hope people having to go through with this will find the strength to deal with this emotional devastation.

[@angelamaryquitecontrary4609]

I'm ashamed to say that it wasn't until long after my parents' death - three days apart, different illnesses - that I even felt able to admit to anyone that I was no longer a believing Catholic. Such was the hold the church / my mother (they were almost the same in my mind) had over me. I salute your courage, and wish you well.

[@Wolf-ln1ml]

I could imagine that in part, it may simply be that there won't be any traditional church rituals that she was looking forward to. To go with a pretty obvious example - what about christmas? The whole "spending time with family, sharing gift, having nice meals and chatting" may simply be inextricably linked to catholicism for her... Just saying, some of the cultural aspects may still be worth keeping. I'm always reminded of something a Swede (I think... might have been Norwegian) once said during an interview about religious stuff (no actual quote, just the gist that I remember) - "Going to church is great, the preacher often says interesting stuff or gives good advice - just as long as he leaves out all the "Jesus" and "god" and bible stuff." Except that some (usually older) people (my aunt was a good example of that over here in Germany) simply have a hard time disconnecting one from the other anymore, so anyone rejecting the "Jesus and god and bible" stuff meant that they were rejecting everything else, too - in her mind, the very first thought and impression was "never, ever having another nice meal and chat with that person, never sharing any more gifts, ..."

[@danielbarry63415]

That analogy of the prisoner being able to reject their punishment by grovelling to the warden makes it seem that, if there were a god, we are imprisoned on earth rather than "blessed" on it! Another great video 🙂

[@DeaconShadow]

It’s not even accurate. Governors don’t dangle reprieve in front of a prisoner, making him beg for his life. They grant the reprieve and move on. Well, maybe not in the US, full of Christian psychopaths as it is.

[@moodyrick8503]

Yes indeed. But it becomes even more _preposterously bizarre_ to assert that no one would ever change their mind when faced with an eternity of torture

[@UTU49]

@@moodyrick8503 Yeah. Let me get this straight, Lukas. According to your alcoholic analogy... 1. Hell is eternal torment. 2. It's what we want. 3. Not a single non-believer would ever or could ever change their mind in hell. Dude, are you listening to what you are saying? Because this reasoning is so terrible, that even people who agree with your world view might (and should) call you out on it.

[@moodyrick8503]

@@UTU49 *Beyond reason;* They say that _"love is blind"_ but this _"love for Jesus"_ also makes some deaf & dumb as well.

[@christopherlin4706]

Wait but that’s exactly what an Alex Jones believes

[@illithidhunter6177]

Lucas is arguing like a teenager that believes that he know everything about the world after watching a tv. It really show how his confidence is the result of his own ignorance.

[@RegebroRepairs]

Again his argument assumes that atheists actually believe in god, but doesn't LIKE him, and WANT to be in hell. It's so amazingly stupid.

[@timpostma1207]

It never ceases to surprise me how irrational apologists are. 😫

[@AnthonyHandcock]

It stopped surprising me a few years ago. I could construct better arguments for the existence of god and I'm a life long atheist. I do wonder if their abysmal performance is akin to the terrible spelling and grammar in 419 scammer emails. Designed to sort the gullible from the not gullible by saying something so inane that nobody with a functioning cerebellum would fall for it.

[@shinomori69]

This is something I've seen with Prophet of Zod videos too and I think you both agree. Lucas' view may be a minority on the subject of hell, but the tactic of self delusion to avoid the possibility that good people can have well reasoned objections to their beliefs raises too many questions for them to deal with.

[@neildunford241]

I had no idea that Lucas knew what the occupants of hell thought/wanted. I might ask him what the winning Lottery Numbers are for the weekend...see if he knows something else that people can't possibly know...

[@UTU49]

Imagine someone thinking that they can know exactly what IS happening in EVERYONE'S minds and everything that ever could or could not happen in their minds. That's a nearly infinite level of ignorance and arrogance. Religions may not do literal brain damage... but they clearly damage many believers' ability to think with any humility or rationality.

[@DMWMDX]

I'm not surprised by him saying something like that. Ever since his first video I've thought he's probably the most self-satisfied apologists on YT with some of the most self-serving arguments I've heard. And now a lack of empathy too? Who would have guessed

[@UTU49]

He managed to very thoroughly dehumanize non-believers.

[@Wolf-ln1ml]

It takes quite a lot of effort to extend empathy and compassion to any out-group. It's so much easier to not even try - and even _more_ easy narrowing down the in-group. Sadly, it's all too similar (though luckily not _quite_ as bad) as the tolerance paradox. Showing compassion towards those who won't do the same in return tends to leave them at a massive advantage, and you at a massive disadvantage. Only every now and then, it actually has a positive effect. We "just" need to figure out when it's worth it, and when it'll just lead to a worse overall situation - and what to do with those people who are.. "too far gone".. how to prevent them from causing too much more damage 😭

[@HarryNicNicholas]

having read some of the comments i'm inclined to say that christians are becoming more aware of how immoral their god is, and they have to do everything they can to hide it from themselves, they've started doubling down on the dumbness of what they believe. like you say, it's incredible no one said to dickhead "if you didn't believe in god, but then you meet him you might change your mind" alongside "they might meet god but still not like him" is amazing, but put yourself (ugh) in his shoes - you're living a total lie but you can't get out of it. he's the one in hell i think.

[@workyoutube7798]

agreed; they have personally invested too much to allow it to "go bust", so to speak.

[@grahampaulkendrick7845]

I'd argue that God is amoral, but then I'm a Deist Agnostic.

[@lyravain6304]

I'm fairly sure that if I met the Christian God, I'd still not like him. Any god that considers eternal torture to be a suitable punishment for not believing in his existence when not given any kind of proof is not a sane or emotionally stable god. Neither is any god that allows a huge number of people to suffer through traumatic events by people who claim your name and domain. And the less I say about the Islamic God with his blatant demeaning of women and whole "if they don't believe, DEATH" the better.

[@scottsponaas]

Lol what? Let’s examine that statement: “christians are becoming more and more aware of how immoral their god is.” This statement assumes there is an objective moral standard that transcends even God Himself. So now, instead of God being the standard for morality, you are appealing to some higher standard in order to judge God by that standard. If you can’t see how wildly illogical your entire assertion is, then it’s definitely you who is “doubling down on the dumbness” of what you believe. Your statement actually makes less sense than a child calling his father immoral for not observing the same bed time he has to. The father makes the rules and says what goes because he knows what’s best for the child. To step into an internal critique of Christianity and presume to be the arbiter of morality and then attempt to judge an all knowing Creator as if you know something He doesn’t….this has to be one of the worst attempts at reasoning I’ve come across in a while. Perhaps your need to bash Christianity has blinded you to just how illogical that thought process is…

[@wax99]

Throughout the video I was trying to steelman his proposition but I kinda landed where you did. The only point that I think kinda sticks is that we always wanted eternal torture as some sort of sadistic gratification. But in that case, hell would become heaven for someone who truly feels like that, and an eternity with god would be hell. So not sure how that pans out. The other idea I thought could have potential is that we become unable to repent once in hell. But this would also imply that we are no longer cognizant and able to think, in which case we become simple automatons but only able to process pain...yet without pain receptors (because souls). It could also imply that our souls get trapped in the most outrageous enternal groundhog day setup but with the inability to remember the day before and thus unable to even think about repenting.

[@lurch666]

Had the same thought about heaven. If everyone is a sinner on earth how come they suddenly stop being sinners in heaven? Are they not allowed to think 'bad' thoughts? Are they not the same imperfect person? Because if so they you are some else in heaven and you don't actually get to go yourself.

[@partydean17]

I think when I was trying to steelman the issue with how this video goes is he really does assume intellectual literal confession of belief in a king in the sky, or lack of doing so is the determining factor of this damnation. Which is probably right but not necessarily so for maybe someone thats viewing this in a way where the characters are just standins. I guess once again it makes more sense the more abstract you get(which typically is how one has to defend their religion). If God is Goodness, Love, Beauty and brings all things together, then people who don't do those things in pursuit of other things are in their own hell. While alcoholism is a brutal example if sort of fits. I have a good friend who is miserable and a terrible addict but her misery just seems so comfortable for her. Like you can reach out and invite her to join ya somewhere and say "wouldn't this way be better?" And she says "I know that's better I want to be better but now I just want to stay home and smoke". She's a really bad case but I can kinda see how she's in hell but the door is locked from the inside. It's not about "choosing Jesus" as much as the fact she needs to choose life. And for now she isn't choosing that. Idk the way they are talking about hell just seems observable in life without passing blame or anything like that it just plays out where letting go of the pain and control is tough to do.

[@christopherlin4706]

That would basically annihilate a persons free will which is… nooo this would make logical sense since the body, which is able to think, would be lost

[@christopherlin4706]

@@partydean17 exactly, what if it’s really about choosing life and for some, religion is a way of doing so, but because of the way the world is built, an eternal hell exists… like if someone logically presents a plausible case for it then……

[@christopherlin4706]

@@partydean17 yeah but wait, each person still has life in some aspect even though the actions they have that are unhealthy, so because of this, the rational mind may still be present, if we are positing this to be possible. So then escaping hell is possible if it is fed, and if one completely disintegrates, they just end up with consciousness itself and whatever happens happens

[@SentientSoy]

I know this isn't the point, but for fucks sake, the analogy of the alcoholic was insulting. As someone who is a recovering alcoholic/addict myself, I appreciate you calling it out, my addiction isn't a choice so if a similar mechanism determines who ends up in hell then it's even more monstrous of a loving god to send us there.

[@ingebygstad9667]

Worked in The Red Cross for a couple of years, seen many things, and I also have a thorn with Christian Elitism... And then this guy comes along with this analogy. My blood boiled, steam was fusing from my nostrils. He looks like a smart nice guy, probably believes he is so to as well, but damn. He's lived a perhaps way too sheltered life. So continuing this; _"Peoples stay ignorant, in order to keep everything within imaginable reach in the bible, as it's all about belief."_ Is that how it works? Addicts loves drugs more than their loved ones? Unemployed and poor people, are _both lazy people who don't want to get rich?_ The list of ignorant denials is long.

[@martinmckee5333]

The more I see of Lukas, the less he seems like a genuinely good person. I'm sure he tries, but his beliefs make it utterly impossible for him to have genuine empathy for people who believe other than him.

[@RichWoods23]

Or he does not have natural empathy, and along with his religious indoctrination this lack has enabled him to find his perfect niche in society.

[@martinmckee5333]

@@RichWoods23 I suppose that is one possibility.

[@allgodsmyth7318]

No being that demands worship is worthy of worship.

[@Brunnen_Gee]

If apologists thought about what they said, they wouldn't be apologists.

[@y0uknowmysteez]

Dude compares it to alcoholism, probably because he never knew an alcoholic who wants nothing more but to stop and be normal

[@dr.floridamanphd]

I’ve spoken to God on many occasions. We had some really deep, and profound, conversations. Turned out I was talking to myself.

[@lameduck3105]

I used to be an alcoholic. But it was nowhere near enough damaging to my brain that I would become religious. Lucas's demeanor strikes me as toxic positivity. Edit: "Used to be" is a bit of a misnomer. I have a mental disorder and still self-medicate with alcohol. I get drunk almost every single day. So I guess I'm still an alcoholic. However hard and depressing that is, I still won't put my faith in a sky-daddy to give me peace of mind or change my life around.

[@cosmicprison9819]

When I think of people who forsake a family for alcohol, the first that come to my mind are Catholic priests… 😁

[@oliviawilliams6204]

At least one of my loved one died an Atheist. I don't want to go to an haven while i know she's being tortured. That would not be an haven if she's not there too.

[@MrSeedi76]

That's in fact one of the best arguments against hell. Everybody would know someone who goes to hell so nobody could be glad in heaven.

[@andydee1304]

Also, if there were no adverse effects to being an alcoholic, I'd totally be one. Being shitfaced with my brothers was so much fun.

[@dr.floridamanphd]

Switch alcohol with cocaine and I’m in.

[@mechtheist]

I couldn't worship a god that was so insecure he needed to be worshipped, especially by utterly insignificant critters like me and other human beings.

[@Authorpreneur]

I"m becoming more and more convinced that religious people believe that they are a 'fixed' person or soul and that what they think and believe are STATIC. They forget that, over time and with additional experiences and evidence, that beliefs change. Beliefs about the world, other people, right vs. wrong, and even religion. This conflicts with the notion that an all-powerful entity 'made them' and the way that they are is the way that they are supposed to be. This prevents them from changing or adopting new beliefs as time passes because it would mean that they were 'wrong' in the past and that would expose hypocrisy and demonstrate their cognitive dissonance. Personally, I would hope that my knowledge, beliefs, and wisdom at age 50 are better and more updated than what I claimed to believe at age 18. However, when people make commitments, statements, and assertions that end up being wholly untrue or conflict with their updated world-views as they age, they are forced to resort (revert?) back to their existing beliefs and claims. Otherwise, they have to eat the humble crow pie (or whatever it is). It's a vicious, poisonous, and NEEDLESS cycle that starts with the idea that they are a created person/personality with specific knowledge and traits that were given by an invisible supernatural entity instead of accepting that they are a result of the upbringing and experiences and they are totally allowed to update and change their beliefs as a continuous process that should improve and get better over time instead of being stagnant and static because of the risk of infinite punishment for some human-declared, made-up, finite 'crimes'.

[@tezzerii]

Authorpreneur I wish you wouldn't generalise and tar us all with the same brush. Speaking as someone who HAS changed and modified my beliefs over time, a member of a church that has also changed and updated its beliefs, and been criticised for doing so !! "Your church can't be true if it changes". Dogmatic or progressive, we're wrong either way it seems.

[@Authorpreneur]

@@tezzerii it’s great to see progress and beliefs being updated. The flaw is that religions claim divine, unchangeable, perfect truth and then change things, exposing that they in fact do not have divine revelation withheld from the rest of us. If churches would drop the idol of certainty and go back to choosing to live a life according to a book based on faith and not condemn others who don’t follow and don’t try to pass laws limiting what other people can do, then there really won’t be as much tension between religious and non-religious. Much like eastern religions that don’t care what other people do. It often feels like religious people want validation of their beliefs and get frustrated when others disagree or reject their claims when this really shouldn’t bother someone who believes that they have special truth and an eternal reward. Except many religious people include nonbelievers in their theology as evil people who choose to hate their specific god and must be converted. Many sects of common religions even ostracize and shun family members who don’t conform to supernatural assertions.

[@willyeverlearn7052]

"If I die and face god, he would have to fall to his knees and beg my forgiveness." Anonymous Quote found on a wall in Auschwitz.

[@FearlessNimue]

If noone who is sent to 'hell' will ever change their minds then one could argue that their god creates them to be sent to hell and tortured for all eternity. So god made me agnostic just to punish me for it ... #parentinggoals

[@tonydarcy1606]

Stephen has a kinder view of Lukas's character than I do.

[@adam88099]

Love the short form version of your longer video. It's quite often I want little refreshers on points. 👍 Love your content. When I was younger I used to rationalise my religious belief the way Lucas does. Just making things up the conform to what I believe is right or wrong. I was so convinced I was right too.

[@goldenalt3166]

I find it interesting that God operates like a scam artist following the legal rules. "I can't do anything unless you sign over your life and eternity to me willingly and unconditionally." And apparently, every person who becomes aware of what God in that after life is never agrees to this offer. And apparently, no-one in heaven ever gets a chance to change their mind.

[@nonplayercharacter6478]

That's the real tragedy, their description of what people do in heaven sounds like eternal torture to me. "Worship at the feet of christ for eternity" So, I become a lightbulb in his makeup mirror? Hard pass, thanks.

[@soonerarrow]

Christian's, like numb nuts Lukas here, can't imagine that there are people who don't think like him to believe in a crazy, nonsensical story without evidence. I, in turn, can't help but laugh at him and his believing brethren when I hear all the crazy things they assert without evidence. Sometimes it's just so delicious and then Mr. Woodford here comes along to add an especially tasty side of gravy or lots of whipped cream with a couple of cherries to boot...

[@TheCaptainSlappy]

You believed in the magic religion of Devout Atheism story enough to show up here long enough to do the following: 1- Take offense to something that has nothing to do with you (it's a NAZI/Commie tactic to claim fringe minority delusions make cult followers the only universal eternal victim, e.g., yourself and the others here, in order to feel special, i.e., Charles Manson cult, since you undeniably follow the moronic Cult of Personality addiction without the intelligence to realize it's a mere ponzi-pyramid consumer scam of retread Theodorian devout atheism) 2- Make sure to pray in the comments section for updoots from the congregation (this is to balance out your lack of power or stroke in the real world, being impotent, so much like any random john, you need to find the right hooker in the right alley to make you both feel good & to explain away what you are engaging in as you are addicted to emotional manipulation) 3- Not find it hilarious that your preacher is e-begging for donations, playing clips of Carlin & repeat ad nauseum the failed copy-pasta of a long-failed devout atheism religion 4- Not realize your Devout Atheist Pastor absolutely needs Christianity to exist, not the other way around. It's why he isn't bashing jews or muslims in this video, but making sure to panhandle a religion of no-religion. Basic Dunning-Kruger mixed with fast-hand illusion of a Hobson scam, while stretching out the pseudo-logic using Zeno's Achilles Paradox, or the Stadii.

[@Kevin_Williamson]

Just a couple things... The largest problem with the criminal being offered a pardon analogy is that it's in a setting everyone affirms as real. The court system. The prison. Even the pardon is tangible. But the same cannot be said of God, or an afterlife, nor any asserted penalty or reward. I will gladly take the pardon since I have every reason to accept the consequences are very real. The religious beliefs are...well...just beliefs I have no reason to accept as true. The idea of a supposedly perfect, all-powerful, loving father God even wanting to be worshipped has always been a sticking point with me. Only very needy, insecure and/or egotistical people need worship and adoration. They rely on others to boost their self-esteem. Which doesn't make a God demanding worship on threat of eternal torture look very appealing. Regardless of what amazing things I could do, if I start demanding worship then that makes me an egotistical buttwipe. I found it interesting that some early Christians, like Origen, believed in the eventual universal reconciliation with God of all human souls.

[@Avistew]

To be fair, if some dude decided I should be tortured until I start loving him, I'm not convinced I'd be able to make myself love him in order to end the torture, so I get the "once in hell they won't change their mind" part.

[@Wolf-ln1ml]

Hmmm... a certain scene with a certain rat cage comes to mind... 1984...

[@jayplay8869]

My mother left me due to being an atheist. It’s very much like alcohol, religion is unhealthy for everyone involved.

[@j.christie2594]

I lost family to Myth as well, sorry you suffered through this. Hope there wasn't any violence or bickering that went beyond repair? In my case, I lost family. To vial gawd.

[@TheCount991]

@XORRE That's not the way that works. Nobody just decides to be an atheist. Either you are convinced of a god, or you are not. It isn't a choice. And regardless, most christians I know treat people who believe in other Gods, or just other versions of their own God even worse than atheists, so I don't see how that would help.

[@donnievance1942]

@@j.christie2594 vile

[@donnievance1942]

@XORRE Belief isn't a "choice." It's the necessary outcome of your mental relationship to the perceived world. Can you choose to believe in the blue pixies? If you think so, then demonstrate it to yourself by choosing to believe in them for five minutes, and then stop believing in them when the five minutes are up.

[@j.christie2594]

@XORRE so, I died and was revived, I saw or hallucinated a s_it ton of images during this NDE. I was on my way to Atheism before. After coma and entering World again, I did lots of religious/Spiritual research both chronological and evidence. 10,000+ religions of 1,000,000+ gawds are not Reality. More so, it's dangerous for Humanity to be WARRING forever over this Scam of "Chosen and Others". To much very real evidence points to me, religion is For and By, not of this Earth people, some would call Aliens. Pacal the great and his coffin lid, Crucifixion Fresco with ufos in Divini Decati Turkey, Cuban, Mexican, Chinese pyramids, not built by hebrews, letter "Jj" not in hebrew till after German GIAN GIORGIO TRISSINO , father of present day version, created when worked for vatican 1524? Jew is name made up in Europe. Near where present day "Snakehead Building", in Europe is. DYOR, these data points are really neat, to thinkers, are You 1m?

[@jon-paulmattack1152]

Atheists are..... And I know the mind of every atheist.... EVER!

[@ruminator3570]

This theist can't conceive that a person could change their mind in hell. Only through trauma conditioning do you get such inflexible and unchangeable logic.

[@Werezilla]

I once made a "drunk parent" comparison once. Thing is I was talking about the main villain of a TV show who was abusive to his soldiers when I said that. Not someone you're supposed to root for.

[@johnbiggscr]

Is he suggesting that his god constantly asks people in hell if they changed their mind yet? Or is he expressing surprise that people tortured by a being won’t come to worship that same being? * smack * do you love me yet? * smack * how about now?

[@JayMaverick]

Heroin addict: It's really the non-heroin addicts that are the addicts, because they are addicted to not having extremely euphoric experiences when on a substance!

[@KyleHarmieson]

A lot of these "arguments" against atheism seem to assume that atheists actually DO believe in God, but pretend not to. It's as if they genuinely cannot imagine someone who isn't convinced of God, and so the only explanation for atheism for them is dumb teen rebellion. "I know he's real, but I'm gonna pretend he's not just to spite you, and because I just like being a dick". In short, they completely take for granted that God is a part of everyone's life. And anyone who claims otherwise is lying, to themselves or others.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Rationality Rules, Stephen, this was great. First, I've got my beautiful game of 'DEBUNKED!' LOVE IT!! That guy is wacko. And, I have as much problem with the scriptural, and commonly held descriptions of heaven as hell. The fact that it says the 'righteous' in heaven can 'enjoy watching and hearing' the perpetual torment of the damned, (who it also says are begging and pleading to God who turns a deaf ear!) would have to mean the opposite of his claims. And they would most certainly be people you know, possibly love. But even strangers! No, that could only mean any humanity has been stripped away from us. Also, punishment is to learn a lesson. Hell, as believed by christianity and islam, is just extreme vengeance! And good, but unknowing, (given the wrong theology or such, meaning innocent!) or disbelievers go there. Whereas those who do truly evil things, can just ask forgiveness, according to jesus, an unlimited number of times, get heaven. That puts Anne Frank in hell, her nazi murderers in heaven. Hell no I wouldn't worship that God. 👍💙🥰✌

[@chrisose]

Lucas is not a "kind and gentle person", he is an apologist.

[@mrcnub]

"an otherwise gentle and decent person" I get the seemingly admirable intent behind describing people like Lucas in these terms, but... sorry, no. It's not true and it's well beyond time for us to quit pretending that it is. Comments like the ones Lucas has made should completely disqualify him from polite discourse, or from receiving any benefit of the doubt. I've never used phrases like "otherwise gentle and decent person" to describe people who hold various other monstrous bigotries, so why should I apply it to the religious? For one thing, it's probably not even true. And for another, so what if it was? Circling back to the alcoholic analogy from the beginning, lots of people act as if "I was drunk" qualifies as some sort of insanity plea for whatever they don't want to take responsibility for, as if being drunk turns you into a completely different person. In fact, alcohol is a truth serum... and so is religion. Religion doesn't turn decent people into bigots. It reveals the kind of person they always were.

[@Byorin]

I know several theists whom I would call “gentle and decent” because their actions show them as such. They donate to charity more, they’re quick to offer personal help when needed, they haven’t been convicted of any crimes, and I’ve never known them to lie about an objective truth, and they are basically just peaceful people who would share a meal with a stranger. Unfortunately, they also believe non-Christians will eventually suffer in Hell. They are traditional people, so progressives would label them problematic and misogynistic for their views on gendered divisions of labor. But, again, they do not actively hurt anyone. Gentle and decent could be considered subjective, for sure, but I think it fits for the most part. But if you believe in the concept of thought crimes, then I guess they would be guilty of that.

[@mrcnub]

@@Byorin Thought crime isn't a thing. But beliefs inform actions, and actions have consequences. Do these traditional people you speak of lobby to have their religious ideas taught in schools? Do they vote for politicians who oppose equality for LGBTQ people, or would they misgender my trans friends/relatives? Would they make any unfounded assumptions about me if I told them I was an atheist? If they wouldn't do anything like what I described above and actually do keep their religion to themselves, then I'd agree that the "gentle and decent" label applies. If they would do any of those things, then it doesn't really matter to me whether they'd feed my cat for me while I went on vacation. They're a wolf in sheep's clothing and there are plenty of people important to me that I wouldn't want anywhere near them. I'd make no assumption either way on those questions until I saw for myself. Just within Christian theism alone there are thousands of denominations and various levels of devotion alone, from people who pray before every meal to the Nominally Christian Basically Just On Christmas And Easter crowd. And even among the traditional crowd on the issue of hell, I can ask five of them what will happen to me when I die and get five different answers. I feel no need to withhold judgment on this Lukas guy though. He's been actively spreading scientific misinformation in his videos, engaging in some pretty egregious quote mining, and now this with another version of the "atheists send themselves to hell" nonsense. I've seen enough.

[@gabbyn978]

The odd thing is, that I have the feeling that Lucas is clinging to his expectation of automatically earning an afterlife in beauty and goodness, as if it were a bottle full of a delicious fluid right before him, but out of reach.

[@thephilosophynerd7292]

Awesome video Stephen! Lukas does a _really, really, really_ bad job trying to justify hell and he ultimately failed.

[@atticusrex2691]

As a person who has alcoholics in the family, this is insulting as fuck. Alcoholics don't not care about their family or want everyone gone so they can drink. There's so much more going on than that psychologically and emotionally. This guy is the worst

[@davosholdos1253]

Dude, you're pumping out content like a champ! Thanks!!

[@EuronG]

I'd just like to take a pause and consider how generous it is of people like Steven, to give people like Lucas this huge benefit of the doubt and engage in quasi-logical conversations about what "we" "do" after we die... because seriously, WTF? :/ whenever "debating" believers, I always like to start with a question about hell: who or what do you think actually goes there, mate? ;) it's a fun way to make them twist themselves into pretzels trying to answer and explain the "eternal soul" - always cracks me up :D cheers, Steve - keep on keeping on!

[@schlamothy]

If someone “prefers the misery that comes with god’s absence” over the “beauty and goodness” that comes with heaven, are they really miserable? Not if they prefer it. By definition, they’d be more miserable in heaven in that scenario. And that’s only setting aside how ridiculous the insinuation that we know god exists and just hate being around him is.

[@nephatrine]

You can make a choice that you prefer and still be miserable. It's a terrible and flawed analogy, but in the context of what he is saying it makes sense. The alcoholic who drinks himself into oblivion indeed "prefers" that over being sober... but I don't think it follows that therefore they aren't still miserable. The misery of the bottle is just a lesser evil than that offered by reality at least to them in that moment. From the outside looking at that person, you'd never see a serious alcoholic and consider that they are actually better off being wasted 24/7 and losing connection with everything and everyone in their lives even if the alcoholic themselves might hold that position. I'm still utterly baffled that Lucas would compare atheism to alcoholism though.

[@josephang9927]

More ridiculous is to assume human rights such as equality exist. At least religious claims are otherwordly. People are not equal nor value the same.

[@FakingANerve]

@@nephatrine Alcoholics don't "prefer" the bottle over being sober. That's not how addiction works at all. Preference has no part in addiction.

[@vaiyt]

@@josephang9927 Value does not exist either, so the notion that some people have more value than others, intrinsically or as a result of an arbitrarily chosen metric, is purely a matter of subjective judgement.

[@josephang9927]

@@vaiyt Totally. It is scary all civilization is founded on such judgment. Even "atheist" and "rational" people do not question such fundamental imaginary legal and humanitarian concepts that barely keep literal pedophiles at bay from raping children.

[@retro2vr]

"An alcoholic doesn't care if his family leaves him." Did this guy even go to empathy college?

[@BandiGetOffTheRoof]

People love an analogy. They think it makes them clever. But a wise man once said, "A thing is a thing, and not another thing." Finding some patterns or similarities between two things does not make for a good analogy. Some are better than others, but even one detail in differences between those two things does in fact make them different. And that one difference may be the reason the two things are nothing alike.

[@kellydalstok8900]

Sometimes analogies help explaining complicated subjects, but BAD analogies, like the one poor deluded Lucas uses, are harmful. Funnily enough the analogy about alcohol addiction explain HIS position much more accurately.

[@Zahaqiel]

Well, to be fair, if Lukas accepts the proposition that nobody in Hell ever repents, then _by the same line of insistence_ (that of some sort of infinite psychological lockdown) he can also claim that everyone in Heaven has free will AND chooses never to sin again. It's an equally absurd claim - after all, no Christian claims anyone gets into Heaven by perfect behaviour, instead God just gives them a free pass on their own choices, and if the past is a predictor of the future then _everybody in Heaven will choose to sin at some point_ - but it's a claim which solves the Gordian knot of Christian insistence that God never diminishes free will, intersecting with the necessary "perfection" of Heaven which _requires_ the exclusion of sinners so it can remain unsullied, intersecting with the cognitive dissonance that would result if they allowed for people to be forgiven in Heaven for sins in Heaven (after all, they can be forgiven on Earth, so... why even have the division between Heaven and Earth?). Lukas tends to prefer absolutely absurd solves to Christian theological problems because it lets him claim everyone else is misrepresenting or misunderstanding things.

[@jaclo3112]

Lucas's concept of hell, though merely HIS own christian version of hell of millions of different and contradictory christian versions of hell, is a classic example of there is no hatred and abuse like christian love. Imagine torturing and abusing your own children for eternity simply because they refuse to grovel and worship you. You would rightfully be deemed a morally depraved monster. And no, the children who do not choose to grovel and pander to your ego do not choose to be tortured and abused....you do. Lucas's christian god is nothing more than an evil gangster mob boss who gives you the "choice" to pay him protection money...or have your knee caps broken.

[@donnievance1942]

You mean have your kneecaps broken over and over again in every minute for an infinite length of time.

[@jaclo3112]

@@donnievance1942 or pay him protection money over and over again for an infinite amount of time.

[@DirtPoorWargamer]

_”…the opposite of what God originally intended for them…”_ You mean to tell me that I’m powerful enough to completely derail and 180 your Tri-Omni God’s perfect plan, and he won’t even see it coming? Doesn’t sound like anything worth worshiping to me.

[@surgeeo1406]

If hell is an eternity of the happiness I want, rather than the one from an evil deity that assumes full ownership of myself... then Satan trully is the saviour of humanity, I'll happily go to Hell then.

[@j.christie2594]

Nd myth is actually Asian born.

[@j.christie2594]

Lucifer, Naga, baphomet, satan are the same. And other name less known is, "Morning Light/Bringer of Light because "Naga" gave the People knowledge of Science, agriculture animal husbandry. If one studies christna, they find it started in "Asia" 4,000 years ago when first Emperor stepped from mouth of Dragon(space ship) and taught math and Science. Imagine for a second why, first Compass, Calculator(abacus), Geometry, gunpowder,guns, cannons, Rockets not from whole Land or white people. Simply put, Kristina is a " Not of this Earth" but was a alien Caste system, dividing the Ownership from the Slave/worker Caste, shepherding over the lesser caste. If you look up this, you'll see this construction of the Caste System of Kristina is Asian. Who were the "Dropa"? Who was "Pacal the Great"? Why is his Coffin lid, decorated as it is? Why Devin Decanti fresco of Crucifixion have UFOs? Why in fresco, do the people hide under cross, in celebration, why do they have, HALO'S? Why are the people in sky have MOT? Its a message, can you get it?

[@friendo6257]

Yeah if hell is an eternity of drunkenness I’m in. Just as long as there aren’t any hangovers.

[@mistyhaney5565]

He not only doesn't understand atheism, he also doesn't understand addiction. Neither is seeking isolation and misery.

[@julienmeard8922]

To my catholic friends : "would you worship Satan if you'd knew he exists?" Atheists and christians seem to share the same point of view about that question... Is acknowledging the existence the same as worshipping ?

[@ingebygstad9667]

Problem with your comment, is that if *Y* (The Devil) exists, *X* (God) exists by default too, though not necessarily the other way around. Hence the rule applies to God worship first and foremost, when the devil's existence is confirmed. Secondly, many God believers don't believe in the Devil, or Hell. Well now they at least too definitely _do._ :)

[@julienmeard8922]

@@ingebygstad9667 You are absolutely correct ! Thank you ;)

[@antivirusdictionary]

I love Carlin's take on hell and god. "But he loves you" even became an inside joke between my friend group.

[@asthmatickobold7844]

The way Hell is always described makes it sound like torture more than punishment. There's a difference. A loving parent may punish their child with a spanking, send them to their room, or a ground them. A loving parent would NOT set their child on fire, impale them on spikes, or maim them.

[@victoriajankowski1197]

The worst part is using his own fundamental miss-understanding of addiction, his analogy actually works opposite of his explanation ... people so desperate for an elusive but promised high that they are willing to destroy their own families, communities, and nations, disown their children and distance themselves entirely from anyone who might question their ethics in seeking that high....

[@LouisGedo]

👋 Watching all the ads in full that come up on your video because it apparently positively feeds the algorithm 👏

[@deewesthill1213]

William Lane Craig's logic is ridiculous. If a defendant is not able to believe in an invisible judge, Craig apparently thinks it is morally right for the judge to send him to an infinite torture chamber!

[@deewesthill1213]

If Christians must obey Jesus's command in Matthew 5:43-48 to "love your enemies", they should love their worst enemy, Satan. God, his Son Jesus, and Holy Ghost all love Satan too, as God has given Satan not only power over hell but over all earthly political powers. Romans 13:1-7 says "The powers that be are ordained of God" and "they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation". So logically that means that the founders of the American republic and other revolutionaries who went against God's command and resisted the British crown, along with all other patriots who fought tyrants in power, must be writhing in hell for all eternity. Hey Christians, you need to give up your protests and resistance, bend over and submit meekly to whatever the government orders you to do, or you'll go to hell! 😈🐂💩😝

[@workyoutube7798]

Funny how christians talk about "the christian notion of hell" so much, considering how flim-flam and loose of a concept it is to begin with, and basically being a poorly translated guessing game of what it could be; regurgitating some version codified mostly in Dante's Inferno (not a book of "the bible")

[@jameshicks7125]

I was a fundie Pentecostal holly roller in the late 1980s during the 'Satanic Panic' era. Quoting Seth Andrews book title, "Religion made me talk like an idiot."

[@hape3862]

I've studied roman catholic theology at the pontifical university Gregoriana in Rome and even joined the seminary (don't worry, I'm an atheist now!), but even there we were taught that the hell is probably empty, as no one could resist god's love, once it is revealed to them (based on Mt 7,8ff). So, this BS is totally evangelical, not catholic (anymore).

[@hape3862]

@LeoB This is academic theology, mind you - what your local pastor understood about it and what he tells your kids at school may differ. 😜 If I remember correctly (it's been 30 years since I studied, and I've been actively trying to forget all that nonsense!), Catholic theology had the same problem as the guy in the video: infinite punishment for finite sins. But instead of doing mental gymnastics, they faced the contradiction and came to the conclusion that neither God in his all-mercifulness can condemn one, nor a simple man in his weakness can resist God's love. So one would have to enter the hell (= God-absence) voluntarily themselves. Hell could be inhabited, but only by those who are stubborn enough, but that is unlikely. Maybe Hitler. I'm not saying that current Catholic theology is perfectly logical, but at least it's not *as* stupid as Evangelical theology (anymore). 🤪

[@FakingANerve]

@LeoB Likewise. 13 years of catholic school. We definitely weren't taught that hell was likely empty; we were told it was far more full than heaven.

[@osr4152]

I dont know what small sect of Catholicism you were part of but this is definitely not orthodox teaching.

[@hape3862]

@@osr4152 I said I studied at the pope's own university in ROME, as in ROMan Catholic. So, no sect. AND I said it is THEOLOGY, not your elementary school teachings.

[@hape3862]

@@FakingANerve Yes, I know. Priests, monks and especially nuns still prefer to scare children.

[@lrvogt1257]

Guys like Lucas just try to scare believers and give them a feeling of moral superiority. The smugness and arrogance is very annoying.

[@pavld335]

Lucas is straight up dishonest. He needs to be called out for this bs.

[@pavld335]

@Excuse me but because he's an apologist and apologists are liars.

[@pavld335]

@Excuse me but I should give you a better response. I mean, I find it hard to believe that he really believes that atheists want to be in Hell. I don't really have anyway of knowing that, but I can't imagine, based on his interaction with atheists, that he could possibly believe this. Maybe he does, and he's incredibly indoctrinated.

[@estuchedepeluche2212]

I always wonder why some people tend to over use analogy instead of providing a clear description of the mechanisms or dynamic they are trying to explain.

[@cadecampbell5059]

I’ve the exact same thought. It’s something I’ve even asked of those who rely so heavily on analogy to prove their point. What I usually get is something like the “what makes this thing so special is the very fact that I can’t give you an explanation” explanation lol

[@erikarmstrong7474]

I've been watching Deflates videos for awhile as he's the most interesting theist. But during that time something has never sit well with me in how his arguments. I've gotten better at finding the faults myself but thank you for taking the time to respond to some of his content.

[@MaverickChristian]

Unfortunately it seems like Woodford might be attacking a straw man in at least some cases with this video. Take this for instance: 0:31 to 1:05 - Lukas never said that anywhere in his video (I checked). The clip that Woodford showed before this was about people in hell who _know God exists_ but reject him anyway (and thus obviously would not include atheists or agnostics).

[@erikarmstrong7474]

@@MaverickChristian Hmm it's my understanding Lucas doesn't think you can lack belief though. That the proof is there and you're not accepting God as a result. If you look at some of my comments in Lucas videos that has been my contention with his content. I think Steven is spot on with his assessment.

[@MaverickChristian]

@@erikarmstrong7474 _Hmm it's my understanding Lucas doesn't think you can lack belief though. That the proof is there and you're not accepting God as a result._ As far as I know Lukas doesn't say that anywhere in the video either.

[@erikarmstrong7474]

@@MaverickChristian Not in this video no but in his other content yes. I've been watching his content early into his KZbin start.

[@MaverickChristian]

@@erikarmstrong7474 I'm concerned that some folks are hallucinating things that were never actually said. For example, what Woodford describes in 0:31 to 1:05 was something that Lukas never actually said in that video. Can you give any specific example where Lukas says there are no real atheists? That there is nobody that could possibly lack belief?

[@Outspoken.Humanist]

What a sick and twisted view. After losing my faith in my mid twenties, I have debated with and argued against religious believers for over 35 years. In all that time, I have found their elitism one of the most troubling aspects. Because they 'believe', they feel justified in whatever abhorrent behaviour they deem necessary and Christians in particular are almost gleeful in telling the rest of us we are going to burn. And, to add my voice to the many, alcoholism is not a choice, it's a sickness. Or perhaps it's the way a non-caring, vengeful, petty and violence loving God made certain people.

[@Oskar1000]

Total strawman by Steve. Lucas said "You could compare this to an alcoholic..." Notice that Lucas didn't say that you could succesfully compare, just that you could compare (I joke of course, good take down)

[@corwin32]

I have to agree that if I existed beyond physical death, met god, and was sent to hell, my world view would undergo a shift

[@edmis90]

7:27 I remember hearing that some form of slavery was actually good and fair; in the sense that it was an option of how to pay off their debt to someone by becoming a slave to them for x amount of time. Was there such a form of slavery? I know that modern folk think of abducted Africans when they think of the word slavery.

[@bskec2177]

The term for what you describe is "Indentured Servitude". You essentially sign a contract (or in some cases, your parents signed on your behalf) and became a temporary "slave". This isn't biblical slavery, as the rules for treating servants and the rules for treating slaves are different. In addition, the biblical injunction to free a slave after 7 years only applied to male hebrew slaves, and even then, if the man had had a wife and child while as a slave, his master would get to keep them for his own, unless the slave agreed to stay for the rest of his life.

[@edmis90]

@@bskec2177 Thank you, I love you!

[@j.christie2594]

Indentures Servitude, is what gawd wants, but from cradle to grave.

[@bskec2177]

@@j.christie2594 Actually worse. God wants it for eternity. After you die you get to go to heaven and serve him there forever. Why does an omnipotent being need servants anyway? I mean, he's omnipotent, he cant do anything himself, he just wants servants to feed his vanity. What an jerk..

[@jaclo3112]

Indentured servitude is also morally reprehensible and abusive, esp as set out in the bible. It's why it is illegal in civilised nations.

[@kristofftaylovoski60]

"They prefer the misery that comes with His absence"....??? Well fuck me

[@friendo6257]

I honestly would prefer the absence of god if it’s the god of the Bible. Eternity being forced to worship a hateful, slave-owning, genocidal, war-monger, penis-cutting god. That sounds a lot like hell.

[@fentonmulley5895]

It hurts to hear that accent spewing lies.

[@fosterapamela]

I find the whole concept of worship unreasonable and strange. I can't think of any other situation outside of the context of religion or some monarchical systems where it exists. It's another example of behaviour intended to appease the deity. When I was a believing teenage Christian I asked someone why they thought God created us and he said it was to worship him. That didn't make sense to me. My thought was that if we were made in his image then it made more sense that it was an expression of love as in a human pair bond. Why would a loving god need to be worshipped by his children? I don't need my daughter to worship me.

[@cratonorogen9208]

Stephen, would you worship even the most benevolent god? I wouldn’t. As they say, god who needs to be worshipped doesn’t deserve it and a god that does deserve it wouldn’t want it.

[@rationalityrules]

Good question. I think a god that insists on worship is weaker than a god that doesn’t, and thus the tri-omni God of Abraham wouldn't care for worship. That said, I'm always open to change my mind. It's not a topic I've given much thought to.

[@norbertremsei]

Anything that demands worship is not worthy of it. I can't imagine a situation where I would worship anyone or anything.

[@azophi]

I don’t even like George Carlin that much but that one clip itself is like one of the most needed things I needed to hear as a Christian

[@yippeeyo]

I knew sh*t was gonna get real after Stephen had his hair down on the thumbnail

[@nevermindthebull0cks]

To be fair addiction or destructive behavior is hell. I guess it can be eternal feeling from the point of view of the person or people effected by it. I was addicted to eating like a pig for 20+yrs, ended up 200lbs overweight. I hated it and myself while and for doing it. But I kept it up and it did seem like a uncontrollable and hopeless forever. I finally changed my mindset enough and lost the weight. That is how the hell analogy makes sense to me.

[@FosterZygote]

I was raised as an Evangelical Christian, and one of the most influential moments in my life was when I realized that the god described by my pastors and religious teachers was almost indistinguishable from an abusive partner. This god demands to be loved above all else - demands total submission, but refuses to provide any empirical evidence for its own existence, because, somehow, it's really important that we believe in it without any reason. I grew up being told that faith was a great virtue. But I came to see that claim as something you'd tell people in order to encourage them to believe in something for which you had no epistemological support. "People who don't believe the Magic Book are bad. It says so right there in the Magic Book".

[@Daniel-wr9ql]

There's just one thing I disagree with in this video. If a god existed, I wouldn't worship him. Simply because any being that demands worship is not worthy of it.

[@tempestive1]

Haha, you added Portugal to the Debunked shipping list! Thanks! Gotta wait 'til the end of the month though :p

[@ianiles6430]

Why would anyone worship a deity? Why would a deity want to be worshipped?

[@mnoble5406]

"I know the meaning of those 19 years! - 5 years for what you did, the rest because you tried to run!"