An Intense, Searching Conversation With Amjad Iraqi

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New York Times Podcasts

New York Times Podcasts

Күн бұрын

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@arthurspero
@arthurspero Жыл бұрын
While I understand the necessity to listen to all sides, no matter how difficult at times, I wish that you, Ezra, would have challenged a bit more the myths and unreality of some of the guest speaker's comments. The unreal suggestion that a single, Palestinian-controlled state by either Hamas or the PA would be "democratic" and respect the rights of the Jews of the region. That is pure fantasy, especially in the face of Hamas's stated goal of the destruction of Israel and of all Jews worldwide. The other reality check would be the well known persecution and expulsion of most Jews from the Arab countries after 1948. More than 800,000 Arabic-speaking Jews were driven out of Arab lands and accepted and assimilated into Israel. This figure is greater than the number of Arabs who were displaced when 5 Arab nations invaded newborn Israel in 1948 to destroy it. There was NEVER any will among Arabs to accept the tiny sliver of a Jewish homeland in part of [then] Palestine. The guest's narrative is distorted and false in so many ways.
@beyondaboundary6034
@beyondaboundary6034 Жыл бұрын
How can Arab Israelis like Amjad have equal rights in a Jewish supremacist ethnostate? By definition, how can an ethnostate treat all of its citizens equally? And if it can't, why should this man and his family--who have as much right to the land of Israel as any other Israeli--accept such a system? As long as Israel is an ethnostate designed to make one ethnic group the permanent majority, with greater rights than people who were conquered or expelled 75 years ago, it will be as morally indefensible as apartheid South Africa or the Jim Crow South.
@vintageglee6406
@vintageglee6406 Жыл бұрын
Thank you 🙏🏻 ❤
@joshibrahim1537
@joshibrahim1537 Жыл бұрын
Hear Hear
@iditbes6962
@iditbes6962 Жыл бұрын
This guest is antiseptic in a costume for an intellectual who try to gaslight the listener, sorry, but there is not other way to say it.
@Hakshavalah
@Hakshavalah Жыл бұрын
Maybe if he didn't push back, it's because it's not true. Just because you believe a Facebook post and Alan Dershowitz, doesn't mean everyone has to. The expulsion and diaspora of Jews from Arab states in 1948 is a direct consequence of the Naqba. Starting history there ignores the CENTURIES of peaceful coexistence of not just Jews and Arabs, but Christians, Druze, and many other ethnoreligious groups in the region until the European colonizers (who themselves were the ones who had been demonizing, killing, and displacing Jews in Europe, many of which found safe haven in an Islam ruled Ottoman Empire in the Middle East). Arabs didn't create the harmful anti-semmitic stereotypes Hamas now uses to describe Jews. Christian Europeans did. So don't try to frame this as an ethnioreligious battle for existence because it wasn't until first the Zionist movement made it so (even with terrorist organizations like Irgun), and then later on with the Western framing of Orientalism. You cannot start a negotiation believing the other side will or won't go for something just because of their identity. Arab countries have complex personalities, and complex goals. Jordan and Egypt have normalized relations with Israel for centuries. The whole timing of this Oct 7 attack is related to the normalization agreement between Saudi Arabia (Iran's greatest regional rival) and Israel that was considered a done deal by everyone on all sides of the international community. You can't say that Arabs won't accept an Israeli state because that's just factually not true. Also, we don't know what a Palestinian state would ever be like, because it has never existed. We do know that the 20% of Arab population in Israel is treated as second class citizens, and even the Druze who serve in the IDF have had their citizenship downgraded by the Nation-State Law of 2018. How many Arabs need to die and be displaced so that Zionists feel safe? Human life math is cute, but it betrays the vengeful and dehumanizing nature of the Zionist project. If you come to the table assuming the other side is false, wrong, and distorted based on their identity, you don't want to come to the table at all... You want to own the table. What else can be expected from an ideology created in Austria in 1890? But it's 2023 now, and the world is slowly, but surely overcoming the white European superiority complex that some Ashkenazi (and many white Americans) ended up carrying with them. The nation-state is weakening. Transnational and domestic idenitites have consistenly gained more strength as nationality means less. More and more Jews are able to empathize with our Palestiniann, seeing them not just as an ethnoreligious Arab Muslim identity, but as humans. So while a 2-state solution is still the most practical immediate way forward, the weakening of the state by money politics has given rise to proto-fascism everywhere, allowing Netanyahu and the Israeli government to actively fight against a 2-state solution. The Israeli government of the past 20 years doesn't believe in a 2-state solution. So it is very real to think of other political organizations, maybe even a return to the Ottoman millets, that don't fit the Western idea of a nation-state, definitely not the Zionist ethnoreligious state.
@ginger22ly
@ginger22ly Жыл бұрын
Ezra thank you for your active listening and humility. It is heartening to hear this sort of open conversation.
@dlcalliope
@dlcalliope Жыл бұрын
Shame on you Ezra. Pathetic interview which leaves out history and context. You have become a shill for Hamas and its murderers. This conversation should have been put in the context of the stated aims of Hamas as spelled out in its Charter which I urge everyone to read. They have again demonstrated who they really are- Nazi genocidal murderers.
@peterreiss5937
@peterreiss5937 11 ай бұрын
In 2018 when the Gazians "protested" at the border fence they sent over exploding balloons that caused massive wildfires. The host should have interjected that when Hamas was first elected the founding charter called for the elimination of Israel-Jews. Hamas was rightly designated as a terrorist organization. When a group calls for their elimination Jews should take that group at their word. They did not and paid a heavy price.
@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat
@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat Жыл бұрын
He keeps calling them "political islamists", because he doesn't want to use the word "Jihadists."
@lonecandle5786
@lonecandle5786 Жыл бұрын
He's against these "old" ideas of nationalism, but then insists on the importance of the Palestinian homeland...a very nationalistic goal.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
it's...literally their homeland though. Not like the Israelis who say they need to live there because they were there 1000 years ago.
@lonecandle5786
@lonecandle5786 Жыл бұрын
Is it? Most of the people living in Gaza were born in Gaza. Many Palestinians were immigrants from elsewhere in the not-to-distant past. Either way, the idea that you are a part of a people, and your people have this specific homeland, and they need to go back there and have political control of it....that's a part of nationalism. The guest isn't really against nationalism, he's motivated by it. Also, some Jews never left. They maintained a presence. @@mikei6605
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
@@lonecandle5786 Yes?? Many of them still hold keys to their old family homes which now have Israelis living in them. Most of the people in Gaza were born in Gaza because 40% of Gazans are children. What you're describing about immigrants and nationalism matches Israel to a T funny enough. It's absurd you're implying he is a hypocrite for being against "nationalism" but still wanting a nation after it was violently taken from his people just one generation ago. Do you think they should be happy to be refugees in their own land? And "some Jews never left" is a ridiculous excuse for a homeland claim, especially with what you're saying with Palestinians.
@lonecandle5786
@lonecandle5786 Жыл бұрын
An old family home isn't the same as a homeland. The guest is talking about a peoples' homeland. That is a nationalist motivation. Both the Palestinian and Israeli causes are nationalistic. The guest claims he is against nationalism in general, but clearly cares about Palestinian nationalism. Whether or not the Palestinian nationalism that includes taking over current Israeli territory is just or good, is irrelevant to how inconsistent his arguments are. Many Israelis were refugees from both the Middle East and Europe. There have been refugees of many ethnicities all over the world. How refugees make their lives better isn't by holding on to a nationalist claim on another country's territory, but by moving on and making their lives better where they are. If Poles, Germans, French, et al held onto claims to land they at one point were unjustly kicked out of, then all of Europe would be in never ending war and terror. It'd be better for people to move on rather than for people born in Gaza to try to take Israeli territory from people born in Israel. What am I saying with Palestinians as to a homeland claim? All I said is that it's a nationalistic claim. The claim makes sense. I'd want to return to my or my parents or my grandparents home too. If some "other" group that had a different religion and a different identity to me moved in and wanted to control large portions of the land, I'd want to reject them too, and if I chose war rather than U.N. partition, and lost that war, I'd be angry and resentful and want to return to my land or my parents' land. I'd see the people who are not these newcomers as like me and view us as the rightful owners of the land. The Palestinian nationalistic desire makes sense. But it also makes sense to move on like many refugees around the globe have done and made their lives better where they are. They can't do that as long as they allow terrorists who attack Israel to run their territory. Being the last native state in the land, and having a significant remaining presence (10%), is a decent homeland claim. The Palestinians were only really a people very recently, so their homeland claims are weakened by needing to create this new salient identity that before wasn't important. They were people living in the area of Palestine and only really became Palestinians to oppose the state of Israel. Nevertheless, they were living there and left for multiple reasons during war, so they can certainly claim that they are a people and that their homeland is Palestine. And that is at least a good homeland claim that Israeli Jews have, but those are both nationalistic claims. Also, I didn't say that the Jews never left to describe a homeland claim, but to somewhat correct your statement where you said, "Not like the Israelis who say they need to live there because they were there 1000 years ago." This implies it went from no Jews to Jews, which is misleading. I also don't think the governors of the land should be whoever has the strongest homeland claim. Most (all?) countries on Earth stole their land at some point in history or pre-history from another group, so everyone has a weaker homeland claim than some other group that either still exists or has since disappeared. @@mikei6605
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
@@mikei6605 How? They didn't even call themselves Palestinians until the 1960s. Many are, if you went back to the 1920s, 30s, 40s just immigrants from neighbouring countries. So I'm not sure how their claiming it as a homeland is any more legitimate than the Jews, who at least HAD a nation there at one point, and have clearly been obsessed with returning for Millennia...
@davidglasgo627
@davidglasgo627 Жыл бұрын
The Middle East has changed, the world changed on October 7th. Ask yourself this- how do you find young men willing to do what those young Hamas men did? Normal men cannot do that. Physiologically, by definition, normal men cannot even imagine doing what those young men did. Normal children won't pull the wings off of flies. Won't torture animals. The large number of young men that did that, they were created by an eduction system and culture previously unknown. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children. And millions of people celebrating it, supporting it, even now knowing what exactly they did. Israel will never be the same, will not rest, will not let down their defenses. On October 6th there were many Israelis that loved Palestinians, yearned for peace. No more. I am with Israel.
@davissae
@davissae Жыл бұрын
It’s telling about Israel that an Israeli citizen can freely hold such anti Zionist views openly.
@John-mu2js
@John-mu2js Жыл бұрын
Zionist Jews are attacking anyone who is anti Zionist just like the Nazi brown shirts they are.
@hadarrottenberg8743
@hadarrottenberg8743 Жыл бұрын
The difference between Jews and Arabs on this conflict is very clear one side have some self reflection and accountability while the other is just the perfect victim. So you judge which side is more credible more leaning for compromise
@lonecandle5786
@lonecandle5786 Жыл бұрын
Palestinians chose to elect Hamas which in its very creed is in war with Israel...of course Israel blockaded Gaza after the Gazans chose war. If Gaza is a prison, it is a prison of their own making.
@munchingsquirrel5067
@munchingsquirrel5067 Жыл бұрын
It's well known that Gazans elected Hamas because they saw them as less corrupt than Fatah and had a record in providing services.
@jayteegamble
@jayteegamble Жыл бұрын
@@munchingsquirrel5067 Well they elected Hamas on a 'exterminate all Jews' platform and started firing rockets at Israel. The blockade was Israel's attempt to stop Hamas from getting weapons.
@megpenney2610
@megpenney2610 Жыл бұрын
Incredible. Powerful. I feel like I need to listen again and again. I learned so much and was deeply moved by you both. Thank you for having this intense and sometimes difficult discussion. It’s much needed.
@JonathanEhrlich-r9l
@JonathanEhrlich-r9l Жыл бұрын
Palestinian leaders have rejected all prior 2 state solutions and haven't reconciled the existence of a Jewish state. Israel will not give up on its Jewish and democratic identity.
@nicolaebulgaru
@nicolaebulgaru Жыл бұрын
Outstanding! The most insightful dialogue about not only situation in israel but about our entire world predicaments . Congratulations to both of you.
@lisawilliamson5012
@lisawilliamson5012 Жыл бұрын
Thank you both for such a constructive dialogue. The world depends on people like you to make sense of the madness and find a path forward. 🙏 from Montpellier, France.
@bdadolph
@bdadolph Жыл бұрын
Very scholarly discussion which provides more clarity than non-literate memes and slogans. Thanks
@Edo9River
@Edo9River Жыл бұрын
I absolutely appreciate this podcast. I experience a split within my religious community over this.issue of Palestinian and Jewish rights of security and freedom. Our religious community isn’t unified in their agreement on which side they’re on. The action by Hamas h forced a renewed exploration.
@deltaisf67
@deltaisf67 Жыл бұрын
Take it with a grain of salt... it is one sided as he is clearly biased and I am sure the other side would have quite a different perspective.
@lizkeyser3776
@lizkeyser3776 Жыл бұрын
As an ordinary global citizen (not a diplomat, a politician, a UN official or anyone important), trying to find balanced information about the unbelievable carnage in Israel and so especially in Gaza is very difficult - lots of biased, nuanced reporting out there. Thank you for giving us access to wise, learned people who clearly explain the situation with great insight, facts and sanity. Thank you to you for being professional throughout even though we can hear the pain and inner turmoil you are going through as you discuss these topics. Really appreciate the work you do.
@wise_owl13
@wise_owl13 Жыл бұрын
Democracy Now; Al Jazeera English
@dlcalliope
@dlcalliope Жыл бұрын
This conversation is designed to throw sand in your eyes. The truth is in what is not said. Please read my comments above.
@jaialaiwarrior
@jaialaiwarrior Жыл бұрын
At what point did families with names like "Iraqi" become indigenous to Palestine?
@DovidShaw
@DovidShaw Жыл бұрын
Amjad Iraqi seems to avoid mentioning the cause of the siege which is the 1000s of rockets that Hamas were sending to Israel soon after Jews evacuated the Strip. Without the siege there would have been much more rockets and other weapons imported into the Strip. Israel had no choice at that time.
@munchingsquirrel5067
@munchingsquirrel5067 Жыл бұрын
I enjoyed listening to this and all the interviews that Ezra has done on this issue. What I find most disappointing is that this interview is only receiving half the number of listens as interview that comes next - giving the Israeli perspective. I guess this ties in with the finding that 40% of people choose wilful ignorance!
@LearnedSome
@LearnedSome Жыл бұрын
I listened to this twice. I wish we heard more voices like this in the mainstream media.
@amirflesher3742
@amirflesher3742 10 ай бұрын
He lost me when he referred to Hamas's operations as "quote unquote, terrorism." Putting aside October 7th, how else can you define suicide bombings specifically meant to target civilians on busses and in cafes etc? The other problem with this analysis is that the demands that he implicitly puts forth as reasonable are not. If the goals of either Hamas or the BDS movement were to simply end the occupation and return to the 1967 borders, then we'd be having an entirely different conversation, and most likely a solution would have been reached already. But whether you are talking about Jihadist terrorism, or BDS activism- while the tactics are different, the the goal is to dismantle the Israeli state. There's a clear double standard- Israel's hegemony is monstrous, but Palestinian hegemony would be just. I don't understand how this can be the case.
@zialuna
@zialuna Жыл бұрын
This interview is so balanced and open-minded. Thank you both for your thoughtful and heartfelt inquiry. Respect!
@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat
@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat Жыл бұрын
You're kidding right? This guest is just lying through his teeth at every turn. He calls Hamas "so-called-terrorists."
@vcab6875
@vcab6875 Жыл бұрын
Brilliant outstanding discussion. Poor traumatized Jews and Palestinians. So sad.
@MyKarur
@MyKarur Жыл бұрын
Some things in life you find out by accident! This Ezra Iraqi podcast on NYT is so profound and an in depth discussion about Palestine, minus theatrics.I am truly grateful to both Ezra Klein and Amjad Iraqi for providing a context and perspective on the Gaza issue and the larger context of the Palestinian problem
@joanofarc6402
@joanofarc6402 Жыл бұрын
What is wrong if Jordan or Egypt govern Palestine? I can’t believe they refused this!! Get over it! Another Arab country would do better! Gaza was part of the Ottomans and thus part of Jordan and Egypt too! Find a solution and stop this insane conflict! The world is so sick of this.
@999reader
@999reader Жыл бұрын
I tried very hard to read Said’s Orientalism, but I found this book dense and incoherent. Like many a worthy German metaphysician. I suspect that Said may not be in touch with reality. That means that politically motivated readers can take from it whatever their biases and intuitions lead them to.
@stoor79
@stoor79 Жыл бұрын
Ezra I so appreciate your honesty and vulnerability in these interviews.
@aamiralavi78
@aamiralavi78 Жыл бұрын
This was excellent. Calm, respectful, measured but real.
@bdadolph
@bdadolph Жыл бұрын
Why the world needs true scholars, not propagandists
@BibiAli
@BibiAli Жыл бұрын
This was one of the most elevated and constructive interviews I have heard in recent times about the conflict. To have this kind of dialogue requires a genuine desire to arrive at a common solution and a deep curiosity and open-mindedness to hear the other side. I can't thank you enough Ezra for your dedication to always find a way to open our minds and hearts even when the subject matter is so delicate and controversial. Respect to you both not only for keeping it informative but for being good listeners, for your honest and respectful exchange on a topic that normally would rip friends apart. I must say as much as I love the idea of a state for both people governed by equality and justice for all, and as much as I appreciate the idea that the current model of Arab Israelis can be expanded to a bigger more equitable and inclusive one, I can't see the two sides working towards that beautiful utopia in the next decade or so. I think we need to start in the smaller gestures, sharing our stories and breaking bread often even when we disagree.
@mikeg1381
@mikeg1381 Жыл бұрын
My understanding is two groups want the same thing and refuse to or can't compromise, but are willing to use or accept violence. Correct if wrong, but it looks like before and up to 1948, over some years or decades, a Zionist minority pushed their way into an area which was the home of existing minority of Jews and a majority of Palestinians, but had been governed and 'owned' by outside empires. Then UN decreed a two state solution, and the empire withdrew. Then Israel proclaimed an indepent nation with uncertain borders, and Palestinians along with neighboring Arabs declared war and lost. Palestinians continued to fight and lose against the UN recognized Israel until this day, unwilling to accept Israel as a nation. So it seems, Palestinians dont hold any cards, they tried to fight, but lost and lost and lost again. I wonder why Palestinians would think that Israel is going anywhere? Where would Tel Aviv go? And what responsibility should a 'victor' of war have to a loser who does not accept the loss, but continues to agressively wage losing wars?
@antarjones7888
@antarjones7888 Жыл бұрын
What a great interview! Ezra, good job covering this difficult subject!
@jaialaiwarrior
@jaialaiwarrior Жыл бұрын
They were massacring Jews prior to 1948 and he still refers to any political settlement as a "game." So there you have it.
@pamelaiken
@pamelaiken Жыл бұрын
Security can't come along as a deal. Security is a must for Israel to survive in any negotiation
@C0nstantineify
@C0nstantineify Жыл бұрын
I find it appaling that Palistinians call the 1948 war that they started "nakba" (catastrophe). They caused it but lost.
@GeoffreyPicketts
@GeoffreyPicketts Жыл бұрын
Pretty sure it started when Europeans poured in at the behest of British anti-Semites, who organized them into paramilitaries that destroyed Palestinian property and seized land. What people, just minding their own business, would agree to surrender half of its land to a newly-arrived foreign population? There were proposals for a unitary secular democracy with joint Christian-Muslim-Jewish control of Jerusalem, but these were dismissed so that one side could pursue an apartheid ethnostate. The rest is history.
@John-mu2js
@John-mu2js Жыл бұрын
@@GeoffreyPickettsthey don’t want to know history especially if they are Christian. Those fuckers won’t even read their own Bible so don’t expect much intelligence from them.
@msmaryna961
@msmaryna961 Жыл бұрын
Like it or note, the Palestinians have a right to their history and POV. The Nakba is a catastrophe for them and they in no way caused it. The Palestinians have paid the highest price for the sins of the Germans. No denying it.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
CAUSED IT?? Their land was being stolen what did you expect them to do? are you dumb?
@amor7796
@amor7796 Жыл бұрын
Congratulations, Ezra and Amjad!
@eh2139
@eh2139 Жыл бұрын
Oof. So important to listen to, but also deeply frustrating at points because of the denial of certain realities on others experiences. That’s the arch of this entire conflict & my hope is we start to hear from people who’ve put the thought into a collaborative & realistic way forward. Yes, this guest has conceptualized it, and dreamed and I think that’s great & what he’s saying is ideal, but it is also so detached from reality to expect others to also get on board with the idea that Palestinians and Israelis could live amongst each other with no borders or boundaries. I am glad we had the opportunity to hear from him, and the first 1/2 of the convo especially was helpful and reframed some views of mine, but the second part discounted some of that because the truth is that there is a deep rooted ideological belief at play that doesn’t allow for states to operate in unity with religious freedom.
@keep-ukraine-free
@keep-ukraine-free Жыл бұрын
Yes, much here to ponder. We need reasonable moderate people on each side to come together (after removing both Netanyahu's & Hamas' extremist governments), to listen, forgive, understand, and forge a lasting peace and vows to never hurt the other again. Both peoples are historically, even genetically, the same. Your point to "allow for states to operate in unity with religious freedom" is the crux. Israel is not a democracy in the full sense. It deprives equal rights from most Palestinians. It's a religious theocracy, as is Iran its "arch-nemesis"! Both use religion to exclude. Most violence in Israel stems from its policies driven driven by its official religion. So while both sides must "operate in unity with religious freedom" for each other, Israel does not do so. They put their own religion over all others (including Christians, who are also disappearing). The theocratic (Jewish-first) govt policies restrict many inalienable rights normally found in all true democracies. Israel even restricts who can marry who. There's a 60 Minutes compendium showing horrendous extremism practiced openly by Jewish religious fanatics, strongly supported by its govt. I don't care if the solution is one unified country with one secular govt, or two states each defining themselves. I believe the latter is more tenable, given the centuries of inculcated fear/hate & narratives. Yes, the former would be more ideal but harder. It's also the more just, since it doesn't "strip most of the land" from Palestinians, that Israel began taking from them 75 yrs ago.
@bordedup546
@bordedup546 Жыл бұрын
​@@keep-ukraine-freeI'm not very familiar with the specific anti-Muslim or anti-Christian policies that Israel adopts but I'm certain that putting it on par with Iran is disingenuous and that it isn't the crux of the conflict and therefore not the reason for most violence within Israel. Sure, if Israel wasn't founded as a Jewish and democratic state but instead only a democratic state then solving the conflict would be slightly easier but not by much. The only reason that Palestine might ever get a state is because Israel is democratic. Imagine if Israel was founded Jewish and non-democratic like the Muslim but non-democratic like the Arabs states in the region. I don't see much chance of West bank becoming a state under Jordinian occupation or the same with the Gaza strip under Egyptian occupation after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
@johnd2058
@johnd2058 Жыл бұрын
More like avoidance of things like Hamas 11:30 never trying to set aside armed struggle -- it's not like they fixed their charter to accept Israel continuing to exist in any form, let alone a recognizable one. Without that, they're the genocide party, far more explicitly than even Likud or Yisrael Beiteinu. And heck, if I'm against accepting the latter, why would I not reject the former all the more?
@bennettbullock9690
@bennettbullock9690 Жыл бұрын
I share this frustration with the speaker, I am afraid. I do not want to fall into an invective against him, but I do wish he had gone more into how Hamas' ideology was formed, and how this ideology informs both their behavior and their rhetoric. In other words, if you actually read about and study Islamist organizations, as I have, if you actually take them at their word (in Arabic, which I can read), their behavior on October 7 is perfectly consistent. It was carefully planned violence, not spontaneous violence. It was a pogrom first and foremost, not a declaration of political objectives which tragically appeared to be a pogrom, unless we regard those objectives as utopian and totalitarian.
@valtracey6180
@valtracey6180 Жыл бұрын
Really appreciate this ‘discussion’ which you have opened up here … it is calm and respectful, as is the conversation we have listened to here. From the outside looking in I didn’t think I could make any contribution but as I am being educated on this very sensitive topic, I realize that the fairest and most neutral solution probably needs to have a lot of input from outside, where we are not emotionally charged and have not been deeply traumatised by endless suffering. Both sides need to heal, but they can only do that in a safe environment, and that environment hasn’t been established yet, despite 75 years passing. I can only offer my experience as an Irish person, our history is way too complicated to go into here, but briefly we were under British occupation for centuries and there were many rebellions during that time which only resulted in more and more severe punishment. Until the final rebellion in 1916. On Easter Monday (religious holiday) around 1,200 Irish freedom fighters launched an attack on around 20,000 British troops with the idealistic hope of ending British rule. 5 days later they surrendered. The people of Dublin were bewildered, as the majority merely struggled to survive. So the Rising might have come to nothing had it not been for the brutality of the British response. They tortured and murdered many innocent victims in their efforts to round up the leaders. They then had a mock trial and executed each of the 16 leaders. This caused outrage among the Irish people, at home and across the globe, where the Irish diaspora numbered millions, the majority being descendants of Irish emigrants who fled during a famine that left 1m dead and another million refugees. By their actions, Britain had turned the 16 leaders into martyrs. This ‘hopeless’ rising ultimately lead to Irish freedom 6 years later. The story of Northern Ireland is another long saga and I would recommend looking into that history to consider the commonalities (particularly the religious aspect) with Israel - Palestine. I used to hate British people, because my grandfather hated them and he passed down his sentiments. In fairness, he had suffered horrifically under British rule. But I didn’t personally, I just suffered from the trauma that was transferred from one generation to the next. At some point I realized it was all in the past - what’s done is done and can’t be undone. What we have now is peace and freedom, and the possibility of full reconciliation with Northern Ireland. I stopped hating a long time ago. And the Catholic religion for which my ancestors suffered has been hugely diminished, particularly since we discovered that the leaders were corrupt. So anything is possible - if you believe in miracles, which I do. Edith Eger and Viktor Frankl are also two wonderful examples of the power of forgiveness. If they can achieve peace inside, anyone can.
@roadwarrior280
@roadwarrior280 Жыл бұрын
Netanyahu is giving this guy credibility. His settler government. Iraqi is putting a good spin but unrealistic . Definitely Netanyahu must go asap . Palestinians must renounce violence, but there has to be a political reset
@markmann860
@markmann860 Жыл бұрын
Great to hear respectful dialogue on this topic. However ultimately it's profoundly depressing that the guest clings to historical narratives that stand in the way of peace. He surely must understand Israeli Jews will not accept any solution that risks Jews becoming a minority, because a Jewish state is their protection against another Holocaust, when no country offered Jews sanctuary. It's based on fear, not racial supremacy. And the idea Jewish Israelis would risk being outnumbered by people who say openly they want to drive the Jews into the sea is even more fanciful. So the only option, apart from the status quo, is a two-state solution. The guest, who is clearly intelligent and perceptive, surely know this, and yet he can't acknowledge reality out loud because he is trapped in the Palestinian narrative of dispossession and oppression, which may be true and righteous but offers no path to peace.
@BarbaraRenovato
@BarbaraRenovato Жыл бұрын
A one state is the only solution! A new democratic government that welcomes all races, religions genders, ethnicities as citizens with equal rights and justice needs to replace the present fascist corrupt sadistic non democratic Zionist Jewish only psychopathic system of supremacy ! If the genocide Zionists want to create a Jewish only state that is acceptable to the world they can start one elsewhere like the moon!
@thetshirtblog
@thetshirtblog Жыл бұрын
@@BarbaraRenovato If that happens, can Hamas count on your vote in the Knesset, Barbara?
@BarbaraRenovato
@BarbaraRenovato Жыл бұрын
@@thetshirtblog There won't be a Knesset! They'll be on the moon! Members of Hamas can run for the new government! If they get elected and aren't pushing for an Arab only system I don't see why they can't get elected.
@jaialaiwarrior
@jaialaiwarrior Жыл бұрын
At 44:00 he envisions something like what the Palestinians did to Lebanon. Wonderful. That went over really well. Does anyone EVER check these anti-Zionists' grasp of historical reality? Ever?
@shalevkaren
@shalevkaren Жыл бұрын
it was very interesting however I felt that the host didnt come through with his questions. I really wanted to see how the Interveiws battles with the hard questions. In the description it surggest that the host wants to be objective but its really clear that what his opnions are. He didnt even touch the Hamas Islamic ideology.
@shalevkaren
@shalevkaren Жыл бұрын
He doesnt answers the questions at all... the Interviewer just continuous his points. In the end on day he is suggested the erasment of the jews. WHERE DO THE JEWS GO?
@stoor79
@stoor79 Жыл бұрын
They literally talked about the Hamas ideology and it’s evolution from a social movement in the 60s and 70s to what it is today. Great interview. Thanks, Ezra.
@rhetoric5173
@rhetoric5173 Жыл бұрын
500/1200 were military. No civilians. Just collateral.
@irinooka
@irinooka Жыл бұрын
If this excellent conversation would be my first encounter with the Israel-Palestine subject, my heart would totally go to the plight of the palestinians. But I just can't get over the the abandon with which they killed and tortured... I mean who does decapitate a person with a hoe? How can one dismember children while they are still alive, tied in the same room with their entire family?..
@eh2139
@eh2139 Жыл бұрын
That’s where I’m stuck, I’ve seen the telegram channel with the videos and the behavior and violence shown is on such a different scale than anything I’ve witnessed. While I understand that this is what’s lead to being heard and seen & how problematic that is that it got to this point, what Hamas did is abhorrent & can’t be glossed over or tolerated.
@pedroamieva8812
@pedroamieva8812 Жыл бұрын
I may be wrong, of course, and what you say really happened. But I need to see probe to believe it. I'm tired of each side telling false stories, specially the Israeli side.
@keep-ukraine-free
@keep-ukraine-free Жыл бұрын
@@eh2139 The facts are complicated & not reported on openly. I learned from reliable news/analysis sources that the 10/7 attack wasn't so simple. First, it involved two groups, not just Hamas. Hamas-trained fighters entered south Israel, but the broken fences they left allowed others (probably ordinary Palestinians) to later enter. So two or more different groups entered Israel. And so it's unclear who committed the worst atrocities. We know military forces must remain efficient (time-wise, risk-wise, resources-wise), to accomplish only its goals. I believe Hamas' goals were mostly to take hostages, kill anyone preventing that, and quickly get out. It seemed to be a hostage-taking mission, with murder when they were impeded. They wouldn't waste time (or put their mission in jeopardy) by raping or burning people - especially when bullets take 3 seconds. It's likely those regular Palestinians (civilians) were the ones committing the serious crimes - and I'd say they did it (entered Israel to terrorize, without Hamas' knowledge or support) only because previously they had their own lives/families terrorized, murdered, etc. by Israelis. Psychologically, it's known that such levels of brutality against others come from mostly pent-up rage, and it's often a result of perceived severe injustices done to that raging person. The civilians were broken people, terrorized earlier, who wanted revenge. Does not excuse what they did. Soldiers are chosen & are trained to minimize any rage (since it make them weak & manipulate-able), so they're trained to focus on mission objectives. The two groups version makes complete sense, to explain the two types of crimes (hostages vs brutality). I've also seen reputable accounts discrediting the "mass rape" & "many beheadings" stories, including the U.S. govt's official stance on it early on. Biden was told of these by Netanyahu (who's basically a mini-trump - Biden knows this). So Biden (and we) were told those accounts were mostly false. Today online, it's very difficult even impossible to discern real vs. fake content. The 2024 election will be much worse - with AI poised to power such misinformation madness. Second, Netanyahu has clear culpability. He built-up his image as Israel's "protector". He kept saying this will be his legacy, that he kept Israel safe. Yet he didn't. Most accounts now recognize that Israeli intelligence agencies did have warnings & indications of the attack (Egypt told them, clearly, specifically, 3 days prior of a "significant attack from Gaza within a week"). They saw aerial "trainings" & drone "trainings" in Gaza prior to it. Today we won't know why they ignored multiple credible info. I suspect it was partly intentional if you understand Netanyahu, his war hawks, his racist/extremist (Likud) party buddies, etc. He had removed I believe 70% of the IDF from south Israel (removed to help illegal "settlers" in the West Bank, so Bibi could gain political favors, but leaving south Israel mostly undefended!!!). It's also strange why after the attacks were known by officials, it still took 9-12-18 hours for IDF & emergency medical forces to reach parts of south Israel (less than 100 miles away). One of the world's "top fighting forces" should never need so much time to deploy & cross 100 miles. Maybe Netanyahu or his cabinet (who would certainly have been notified of the credible reports of an impending attack) allowed the attack to occur, and slowed the IDF's "savior forces" - thus letting shot but still-alive Israelis bleed to death (increasing the severity of the attack). To justify a response, you must show brutality. Brutality can be engineered if you "can't" save your injured (and can't explain the delays). It's pessimistic, but in line with Netanyahu's past practices of strategic gamesmanship to "win". For over a year he had been losing political power - constant protests against his extremist policies. So he needed to "wag the dog". We may find the truth in a year or two, but given Israel's secrecy in revealing or admitting when IDF kills innocent reporters, likely we'll never know. Netanyahu is partly to blame. Hamas are definitely responsible - since they breached the fences and let other Palestinians enter behind them. They're extremists, just like Netanyahu. Both extremist "leaders" & their "cabinets" have been terrorizing civilians of both cultures. Both should be removed & punished for war crimes. Many governments are saying this, especially the ones with a history of being colonized.
@quinnebben2608
@quinnebben2608 Жыл бұрын
You bring up atrocities as if Israel hasn’t committed more of them than the Palestinian side, Hamas was created in the 1980s there is a longgg history of Israeli atrocities which predate its creation
@llewxammilyt8768
@llewxammilyt8768 Жыл бұрын
@@pedroamieva8812what would constitute proof to you short of being there in person and seeing it with your own eyes. They filmed it themselves and advertised it and no one from Hamas to Iran to Egypt and Jordan denies that it happened.
@msmaryna961
@msmaryna961 Жыл бұрын
Amjad Iraqi is a very effective spokesperson for Palestinians, informed and eloquent. Learned much from his commentary and insights. As he said, Israel keeps wanting to make the Palestinian question "an Arab problem", which absolves them of historic sins. I long ago noticed how hard-core Zionists refuse to even say PALESTINIANS, they always use the generic "Arabs". It's a cynical ploy that may have worked 50 years ago, but not today. Palestinian is a specific culture and ethnicity with local differences from Haifa to Jerusalem.
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
The people you refer to as Palestinians didn't even call themselves that until the late 60s... They called themselves 'Arabs' and often came to that land from Egypt, Syria and other places in the decades preceding the founding of Israel... So yeah. Makes sense. Because there never was a Palestinian nation... Well, except for Jordan.
@msmaryna961
@msmaryna961 Жыл бұрын
@@MeandmySara You are repeating propoganda. Palestinians have exists for centuries and have their own customs, literature, cusine etc. Nation states are a modern invention, but ethnicity and cultural identity is distinct and noted in recorded history. Suggest you read about the noble Palestinian family - Khalidi - whose history in Jerusalem dates back to the 11th century. Or alternatively, read about Edward Said one of the most important cultural thinkers of the 20th century.
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
@@msmaryna961 Well that is just not true... Like no shit, there were Arabs living in that area for ages. Where did I say it was just an empty land until Jews came back? Oh right, nowhere. That has nothing to do with a 'Palestinian nation' or culture. They never called themselves Palestinians. That family would've thought of themselves as Arabs. The term 'Palestinian' literally comes from a Greek nation called the Philistines... Which used to invade that area when Rome ruled it.
@msmaryna961
@msmaryna961 Жыл бұрын
@@MeandmySara Ok, I guess you think you get to decide Palestinian history all by yourself. Picking up a Palestinian history book is too much a burden for you. 🙄
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
I have. Several. All historians know this… it’s only disputed by idiots like you@@msmaryna961
@jaialaiwarrior
@jaialaiwarrior Жыл бұрын
"Palestinians have tried everything" - EXCEPT FOR AGREEING TO A NEGOTIATED FINAL SETTLEMENT.
@jayteegamble
@jayteegamble Жыл бұрын
They want a 1-state solution with all the Israelis gone. 77% will only accept that: www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf
@blakebennett3987
@blakebennett3987 10 ай бұрын
Yeahhhhh… its an Uncomfortable truth for one side.
@abdihakimjama1556
@abdihakimjama1556 10 ай бұрын
It is not so simple. The negotiations f rom my reading from the Israeli side offered some sort of vassal state with no real sovereignty. For example, Israel demanded control over the skies, control over the water, control over the borders, control over the telecommunication network and even control over the Palestinian states foreign policy. None of those are reasonable demands and are the primary reason why the Palestinians have rejected such deals. I even believe that the Palestinians were wrong in accepting the Oslo Accords. The Israeli PM of the time stood in front of the Knesset and outright stated that he was "offering the Palestinians less than a state". The Palestinians accepted that and it pretty much gave the Israelis everything they wanted and gave the Palestinians limited autonomy in ever shrinking land. @@blakebennett3987
@aminshayan9884
@aminshayan9884 Жыл бұрын
Excellent. Thank you for bringing civility to this debate. Looking forward to the Israeli perspective in part 2.
@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216
@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216 Жыл бұрын
Micha Goodman's article in Atlantic Magazine sums up the way to improve the situation with out a well-meaning bloodbath.
@pedroamieva8812
@pedroamieva8812 Жыл бұрын
Wonderful podcast. It's a refresh to the mind, when we are hearing all kind of trash from the media.
@DovidShaw
@DovidShaw Жыл бұрын
"out of sight out of mind" but he quotes no source for this attitude. A lot of this is placing statements into other peoples minds without any proof that these are the attitudes. Basically, a lot of supposition. I see little of what Amjad says as true within Israeli society. Would be nice if he could produce sources.
@mindofown
@mindofown Жыл бұрын
One of the best discussions on this subject I've heard, you were Impressive Ezra, thankyou from Perth Aust
@lonecandle5786
@lonecandle5786 Жыл бұрын
Pausing this podcast is very awkward. Ezra just stares at me. And stares. And stares. And stares. Dude...I'm naked.
@dakdak612
@dakdak612 Жыл бұрын
This guy is frustrating to listen to… mainly because there is never any responsibility he bears on the failure of Palestinian lesdership and Hamas to create a society that Israel would want to come to the table with. It’s always a victim game, they never actually tried to Build up their own society
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
how can they build their own society when Israel controls their transportation, food, water, and employment???
@GrantLeeEdwards
@GrantLeeEdwards Жыл бұрын
Another outstanding episode. Ezra is really on the right track with this coverage, & I applaud his efforts in the face of what I can imagine is more than a little institutional blowback. The AP is firing reporters who expressed solidarity with Palestinians while in college. This is moral madness, reminiscent of the post-9/11 era. It’s important that NYT do better this time. They have a lot of blood on their hands. Tom Friedman & the rest of the nitwits who told Iraqis to “suck on this!” also convinced millions of American liberals that it would be a mistake to stand up & oppose the march to endless war under a President vested with an unlimited authorization to use force. Never forget that only one member of Congress had the moral courage to speak for humanity not for Raytheon. ❤ 🙏, Barbara Lee.
@1989michael100
@1989michael100 Жыл бұрын
Sadly, listening to Palestinians has become unbearable, despite me having much sympathy with them and very little sympathy with Bibi and his extremists. The level of denial, forgiveness towards atrocities, absolutist victimhood narrative, the complete unwillingness to ever take responsibility for anything - is just very very frustrating. Especially after the evil and despicable events of the 7/10. By the way, this guy is an Israeli citizen. Can you imagine a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank speaking so critically of his government, and staying alive for more than an hour?
@aperahamlincoln8451
@aperahamlincoln8451 Жыл бұрын
Yes, and the endless repetition of the mantras, "settler-colonial," "ethnonationalism" and "apartheid" are meant to dispel any history that might clash with the narrative.Things like the ethnic cleansing of Jews from every Arab country, the Nazi sympathies of the father of Palestinian nationalism, the constant and constantly celebrated anti-semitic violence, and on and on.
@ZelM-hz1ob
@ZelM-hz1ob Жыл бұрын
Have you been to GAZA?
@ZelM-hz1ob
@ZelM-hz1ob Жыл бұрын
If you lived in such appalling environment and under such oppressment under a regime that perceive it self as superior and consider Palestinian as animals, how do you think life is there with Israel abusing you everyday???
@ZelM-hz1ob
@ZelM-hz1ob Жыл бұрын
You make it sound as jews have monopoly on suffering, at the moment Israel is doing its best to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible, reminds me very much of what Hitler was doing to jews
@1989michael100
@1989michael100 Жыл бұрын
See that's the sort of dogmatic line of argument I just cannot bear. No nuance, no complexity, in your eyes Israelis are the devil and Palestinians are all holy saints. I am so much more critical of Israel's oppression and expansion of settlements in the West Bank - which really is unforgivable and I have no wish to defend it. But Gaza? Are Israelis the only oppressor in Gaza or do Hamas have some share of the blame? Israel evacuated from Gaza, its people voted Hamas, who immediately murdered or threw out their political opponents. 16 years of oppressive Hamas rule. No rights for women, no free speech, no elections, and worst of all - no care at all for the wellbeing of their people. Gaza has received trillions of dollars of aid, and what do they have to show for it? Rockets, tunnels, RPGs. Yes, life in Gaza is a living hell. But anyone who blames only Israel for this sad reality is a bigot, an idiot, a liar, ignorant or all of the above. @@ZelM-hz1ob
@rombuk74
@rombuk74 Жыл бұрын
Nice and balanced interviews by Ezra Klein
@arshbad1
@arshbad1 Жыл бұрын
Population transfer is the norm in history . wtf is he talking about & why is he so attached to 'his land' .
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
Then why doesn't Israel transfer to Flordia? Palestinians were there first.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
​@@mikei6605jews have lived in that region for thousands of years, long before the invention of Islam.
@tedmom3029
@tedmom3029 Жыл бұрын
The Palestinian question??? In 70+ years Palestinians have made little movement towards organizing a government that can work, not only with Israel, but Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. After 1949 Israel formed a government and built a viable successful country. Palestinians argued, divided amongst each other. They spent their time supporting a terrorist organizations and blaming everyone else for their situation. Look at who is willing to help them and take in refugees; there is a reason. Until Palestinian’s figure this out and use some transformational thinking to work for peace, to be peace, it will not work. They continually want someone else to save them … They created their own cage, they need to figure out how to deconstruct it and that is from within.
@ggc259
@ggc259 Жыл бұрын
Wrong.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
​@@ggc259coming in with a low iq comment displays your ignorance.
@JasonCunliffe
@JasonCunliffe Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@cambiacommunity2139
@cambiacommunity2139 Жыл бұрын
Just like Israel took in all the Jews from Egypt that lived there for centuries so to protect them from persecutions the Egyptians could do the same if they actually cared about the Palestinians.
@chassoune
@chassoune Жыл бұрын
Nice try! Why would Egypt do that? Palestinians (not Egyptians) are people from that land and not from Egypt. How about the jews from Brooklyn NY, Poland..etc go back and live in peace there? You seem to be ok with jews from all over the world to immigrate but not ok with Palestinians who are born there to stay. That's the crux of this issue i.e. zionism.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
​@@chassounelol. Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years long before Islam was invented.
@CyrusSheikh
@CyrusSheikh Жыл бұрын
Very honest dialogue between 2 honest people and important historical back ground! It misses the role of the main monster in this conflict( USA) and the global strategy of the imperial power. However well done.
@barak0302
@barak0302 Жыл бұрын
Min. 53+ Okay, so yes, Israel has some laws about immigrating to it, which are Jewish oriented, and I agree that this is something that should be addressed and rectified in a democratic state in favour of more universalist principles (e.g. economic one). Still, any sovereign country does have the right to decide its laws of immigration into it, same as in the US, UK, Australia, Canada and the like. So first of all: 1. Let's agree that Israel is a sovereign country, based on UN resolutions etc, and stop treating all of it as some stolen area to be split (or in the worst case to be given back) - this is duplicity. We can discuss historically which lands were taken by force, which ones were sold and bought after the British allowed it in the 1920s or so, which were conquered due to armed struggles etc. We can even look at various demographic charts along the years. But there is no blanket decision based on some inalienable abstract right, whereas it is driven by the Torah or the Quran, or some other categorical imperative. It must be political and practical, not ideological. 2. Do we really want a to have a discussion about democracy in the middle east? Using the expression "Jewish Supremacy" while having such radical Islamist regimes in the middle east (and trying to portray Hamas by emphasizing the national aspect, while deluding the Islamist ingredient is intentionally misguiding) is, again, unsurprisingly, applying double standard. It is as if the complaint is against Israel depicting itself as a democracy. Does that mean that if Israel would define itself as a theocracy or a stratocracy everyone would be happier? somehow I doubt it. 3. Using terms such as "Jewish Supremacy" resonate too much with such loathsome concepts and conspiracy theories from people spreading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is shifting the discussion from Israel to Judaism, which are not the same thing (again, politics vs. religion), except they do seem to be identical in the Palestinian psyche, both in Israel and around the world. If people subscribe to dogmas and refuse to hear other sides and perspectives, even this basic right called "Freedom of Speech" is completely wasted on them, since first and foremost you need to have freedom of thought.
@ezekielsaltar4728
@ezekielsaltar4728 4 ай бұрын
Amjad didn't answer the question on why Egypt participated in the siege.
@donmc1950
@donmc1950 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting and informative. The Ottoman Empire was able balance the aspirations of various ethnic groups in this region for a long time. These groups accepted Ottoman rule in exchange for security and limited freedom. Currently there is no dominant country in this region that can guarantee such security.
@m.a.b.4104
@m.a.b.4104 Жыл бұрын
More civilians died in the Ottoman Empire controlled middle east during WW1 than anywhere else, including western Europe where France copped it big time. The fact that it was a declining empire(was known as the sick man of Europe at the time) enabled negligence and deliberate policies causing widespread famine (said to be worse than Ukraine in the 1930s), forced migration, torture and widespread violence. Saying locals accepted Ottoman rule is a bit disingenuous as like most or all empires there was violent repression of uprisings from start to end.
@mensrea1251
@mensrea1251 Жыл бұрын
@@m.a.b.4104I think you’re using the tail end of Ottoman history when it was in severe decline to describe the entirety of it. Would your description also apply to the rest of its history? Or just certain periods? Is the OP’s assessment that the Ottoman Empire was mostly harmonious for its denizens completely false?
@m.a.b.4104
@m.a.b.4104 Жыл бұрын
@@mensrea1251 definitely think it was probably far worse at the end for a number of reasons but like most Empires unless you were an elite, security and limited freedom was not a reality. Most people were peasants who could be taken by force as soldier slaves to fight in wars , protecting your family from lawlessness fell to your tribe with the Ottomans only getting involved if there were invaders etc. Have been doing a deep dive on the history of the area through some Dan Carlin but deeper style podcast. Don't get me wrong, most areas of the world at the same stage of development would've been very similar, it's just that area of the world was much later to the game and because it was forced to catch up at such a fast pace that turmoil, suffering and chaos was probably inevitable. The Ottoman Empire at its peak probably rivaled or exceeded the great empires of history, just think they all were horrible places to live if you weren't an elite compared to modern times. Maybe I've missed the original point or my deep history dive is clouding my thinking at this point in time.
@donmc1950
@donmc1950 Жыл бұрын
I agree with your description of the end of the Ottoman Empire, but my impression was that the middle East was relatively stable under most of the 400 years of Ottoman rule. The US empire has tried to control the middle East since WW II, and it's military resources are now streached. There is no obvious successor the US to regulate peace in the region.
@oremfrien
@oremfrien Жыл бұрын
@@donmc1950 If I may, you confuse the stability of the Ottoman control of the Middle East with the idea that it balanced the aspirations of the different ethnic groups there. This is incorrect. The Ottomans (1) did not actually maintain stability in the Levant (and I'll discuss this in a bit), but even to the extent that Ottomans ensured long-term control, it was (2) because the Ottomans refused to support all local ethnic groups and their desires, choosing "winners" or foreign governors and giving them the power to repress all other groups. With respect to the the point that the Ottoman control of the Levant was no stable, this is an incorrect inference from the fact that the international map, with respect to the Levant, does not change from 1517-1919. However, this belies how the internal map was in near-constant flux. Large land-owning families often went to war with each other in order to secure more wealth and power, and were sometimes recognized by the Ottomans with political legitimacy. One such situation was the Battle of Ain Dara in 1711 which pitted certain Druze landowners against other Druze landowners and their Christian and Muslim allies. Another such conflagration was when Ali Bey Kabir of Egypt and Zahir al-Umar of Palestine rose up against the Ottoman leadership and were confronted by Syrian governors like Jazzar Pasha in 1771-1774. A third such situation was the Egyptian-Ottoman War of 1831-1834. These were highly destabilizing events despite the fact that all of the combatants were nominally Ottoman subjects. (It would be like claiming that there has never been destabilization in the original 13 US states since 1783 because since that point, they have always been in the United States, completely ignoring the US Civil War since all of the combatants were nominally US citizens.) These landowners and governors had powers over their territories that most of us today would consider the powers of an independent state, such as the ability to have their own militias and go to war, conduct negotiations with foreign entities on their own, facilitate immigration, set fiscal policy without foreign interference, etc. This resulted in strong class divides between landowning families and groups (almost exclusively Muslim - especially Turkish Muslims - and Druze), sharecropper populations, the majority of Arab Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other minorities, nomadic quasi-militant Bedouins, and, later, militant settled minorities like the Circassians. To the extent that these states were stable, it was because these power dynamics were very strong in preventing the sharecroppers from evincing their political will. (A strong parallel could made here that the Jim Crow South was much more politically stable than the Post-Civil Rights South because the Blacks, whose politics markedly differed from the Whites in powert, were so effectively shut out of politics that there was minimal dissent; but we would not say -- as we should not say in the Middle Eastern context -- that such stability balanced the aspirations of these shut-out minorities.)
@joanofarc6402
@joanofarc6402 Жыл бұрын
Did you know Washington DC pays for all the Palestinians hospital bills every year. If any Palestinian goes into an Israeli or Gaza hospital, Americans pay their bill. Including ER visits plus pediatric care. This has been going on for 30 yrs since the Israeli gov said they can’t support the extra bills that citizens can’t pay (they’re poor). So the solution was and always is , Americans pick up the bill to help peace. I think this is still a good investment because PA need medical care. But 30 years of picking this bill up is getting ridiculous. Plus we pay Jordan & Egypt to help hold the peace. Why oh why do Americans pay for everything while we work and work plus pay are huge taxes in our country! Everything we do is taxed by federal or state governments. Even our property is taxed every year even if we own it. Americans matter too! We should protest for our rights and not a foreign country’s rights.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
...Do you know that America has given 150 Billion dollars to Israel? And Israel uses it to bomb children in Gaza while Holocaust survivors in Israel go hungry.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
​@@mikei6605what an insane comment.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
@@evamurray2564 Well reality is insane. Look it up. I saw a documentary about holocaust survivors who have to search the street for food because the Israeli gov doesn't give them enough to survive on.
@joanofarc6402
@joanofarc6402 Жыл бұрын
@@mikei6605 look up US congress laws passed on Palestinians. Search for aid going to Palestinians ONLY. they are poor and Israel says they can’t pick up the bills so USA does! Stop watching documentaries with built in bias.
@msleecube
@msleecube Жыл бұрын
Thank you to both. This is a very insightful and balanced conversation.
@tb8865
@tb8865 Жыл бұрын
I find it strange that a people would have trouble disavowing ethonationalism in one part of the world while at the same time thinking ethnonationalism in every other part of the world is the ultimate evil that must be denounced and prevented from ever manifesting in force.
@iillii5
@iillii5 Жыл бұрын
28:00 Violent terrorism has been failing formula since the PLO time and before the declaration of the state of Israel so why not try a different approach?
@cheesy132
@cheesy132 Жыл бұрын
Great episode.
@MG-ye1hu
@MG-ye1hu Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this honest conversation.
@dlcalliope
@dlcalliope Жыл бұрын
This was not an honest conversation. It is designed to throw smoke in your eyes. Please read my comments above.
@raunakchhatwal5350
@raunakchhatwal5350 Жыл бұрын
I'm 20 minutes in and the interview has gone off the rails. Amjad makes the case that Hamas was given no chance at Palestinian freedom, culminating in Oct 7 as a desperate act of murder-suicide? Firstly, the only reason an independent Gaza exists is because Israel created it for the Palestinians. Secondly, international ostracism and sanctions were always the only and 100% foreseable outcome of electing a literal terrorist organization as the government. This was also 100% foreseable to every Gazan who voted for Hamas. Thirdly, very generous two state solution proposals by Israel were all rejected by Arafat. I also cannot ignore him calling the march of return mere civil disobedience. The march of return movement claims all of Israel for palestinians, which means the forced displacement of all Israeli Jews out of the middle east. Israel has the right to keep Gazans out of its country who wish for Israel to be dismantled.
@motionthings
@motionthings Жыл бұрын
Israel exists because some british and french dudes (occupying colonialists) started drawing lines on maps. When I started learning about this subject, I started in the bronze age, 3500 B.C.
@keep-ukraine-free
@keep-ukraine-free Жыл бұрын
@@motionthings Yes, those colonialists, after forming the United Nations, carved that land giving half to Palestinian people and half to Jewish people. That also was not fair since the land was predominantly populated by Palestinians/Arab people (they've been the exact same people genetically as the Jewish, but with a different religion). The UN gave Palestinian land to Jews as "remedy" for the brutalities of the Holocaust. However, to fix one injustice they caused a 2nd injustice. Your point on 3500 BCE - I'd say it's absurd to go back to only 3500 BCE, since that's an arbitrary time point (why 3500 BCE, why not 8000 BCE or neanderthal times? Shouldn't the land that Israel controls thus be given to all descendants of Neanderthals??!! Using Zionist logic, one could validly say the land doesn't belong to either Jewish or Palestinian people but to the original Neanderthal people & their descendants). So get out your DNA tests, you may have rights to a new country you can control!
@keep-ukraine-free
@keep-ukraine-free Жыл бұрын
@raunakchhatwal5350 I'm wondering if you heard the same podcast! Did you not hear the int'l community supported Hamas & bashed Hamas & restricted money going to Gaza & then ignored Gaza... this yo-yo diplomacy left Gazans with no way to improve their inalienable human rights. They tried peaceful diplomacy for 4 decades (yes there was instances of violence, but most/99.9% of Gazans were peaceful & wanted peace & freedom). I suggest you re-listen, but don't ignore the parts you don't like. Focus!
@raunakchhatwal5350
@raunakchhatwal5350 Жыл бұрын
@@keep-ukraine-free A simple google search will tell you that Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 1997 (i.e. they were always recognized as terrorists during their administration of gaza) and their mission has always been the dismantling of the state of Israel, making negotiations with them impossible. "They tried peaceful diplomacy for four decades" go read the khartoum resolution, idiot.
@vaultsjan
@vaultsjan Жыл бұрын
@@keep-ukraine-free I think in horror when India and Pakistan start to make claims of what was before WWII.
@patriceethier81
@patriceethier81 Жыл бұрын
This was yet another great podcast on this very difficult topic. Very interesting and thought provoking.
@gv8773
@gv8773 Жыл бұрын
“Armed struggle” is where you lose me lol
@mua2
@mua2 Жыл бұрын
The right to self defense is codified in human rights law and the UN charter. As an occupied people the Palestinians are within their rights to fight the Israelis through force of arms whereas the Israelis have no right to militarily occupy the West Bank.
@mensrea1251
@mensrea1251 Жыл бұрын
Yes, let a couple of words stop your mind from working. Great attitude.
@gv8773
@gv8773 11 ай бұрын
@@mensrea1251 You misinterpreted… still listened to the whole “argument “ doesn’t mean I have to agree with him. If he won’t acknowledge the war crimes on his side how can he focus only on Israel’s war crimes. Both are wrong and both should be addressed. “Eye for an eye” never leads to peaceful negotiations.
@mensrea1251
@mensrea1251 11 ай бұрын
@@gv8773 Then you should have written that. But that’s not what you did. You got the reaction you deserved.
@gv8773
@gv8773 11 ай бұрын
@@mensrea1251 I just wanted to clarify I’m not upset lol take it easy buddy it’s not that serious
@aiinesk
@aiinesk 3 ай бұрын
The guy is a citizen of Israel. At the same time, he calls to dismantled the state of Israel. Then why is he so outraged when people like him are seen as a threat for Israel. Man this is the basic logic
@doronmutsafi
@doronmutsafi Жыл бұрын
One of the most depressing conversations I’ve heard
@patrickmccurdy8688
@patrickmccurdy8688 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting. I was hoping there could be a two state solution. Listening to this fellow, that wouldn't work for Palestine.
@davidlai399
@davidlai399 Жыл бұрын
But Israel would not agree to an equitable border either when status quo has been so rewarding. Why would Palestinians agree to a raw deal?
@patrickmccurdy8688
@patrickmccurdy8688 Жыл бұрын
@@davidlai399 is that what he said? I got the impression that he did not favor ANY two state solution. Can you point me to the time stamp where he advocated a two state solution? I heard him kind of advocate for a pluralistic solution similar to what we have in the US.
@davidlai399
@davidlai399 Жыл бұрын
@@patrickmccurdy8688 I think he’s just pessimistic at this point. Look at the current map.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
Would America accept a two-state solution if China invaded and took over half the states?
@iillii5
@iillii5 Жыл бұрын
38:00 if we are to understand Palestinian violence we can understand Israeli violence. I don't understand what the point here
@kathleentrinity7367
@kathleentrinity7367 Жыл бұрын
I would like all policy makers to listen to this podcast, including the Biden administration. There are so many insights at the personal level that need to be incorporated into current political discussions at the policy level. This is an excellent podcast and I hope more like this will be made soon, I'd also like to hear a program on American funding and support of settler groups in the West Bank.
@T0M1o
@T0M1o Жыл бұрын
It really saddens me that he never criticize anything in the palestinians actions and decisions, not even Hamas, not even after what happened. It saddens me that he thinks that we as IDF soldiers just kill random palestinians cuz we want to - the truth is, our limitations are so heavy on us that it risked our lives sometimes. It saddens me the most that he is not feeling as part of Israel. I can honestly say that Israeli Arabs are NOT second class citizens. You have to understand, minorities can get to really fancy universities with much much lower scores than Jewish Israeli, which is ok. In KAN11 our national tv many of the jobs are reserved for minorities. And of course there is rasicm, and of course its there even some very deep rasicm in part of the country, but it's not the system. And he never stated that half of the Jewish israelis spent a year protesting againts this very extremist goverment. Maybe this nihilistic massacre brought the palestinians subject back to the world but you guys lost us. Unfortunately I can't see myself trust palestinians in the forseable future. The only way to move forward is to stop looking at the past and blame us for everything. We both are to blame in the situation and the palestinian people need to start criticise their mistakes and be willing to compromise for once.
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
Dude your country invaded his on the premise of "god-given right to land" (the same logic used by Americans when they wiped out the Natives) and you're sad he doesn't feel as part of Israel?? Are you insane? He doesn't owe you anything, not a single apology, not even sympathy. Israel should be begging Palestine for forgiveness for all it has done and caused in the past 75 years.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
​@@mikei6605log off and seek medical attention immediately for your unhinged ahistorical rant. Jews have lived in that region long before Islam was invented.
@munchingsquirrel5067
@munchingsquirrel5067 Жыл бұрын
I think you'd find it worthwhile to read Amnesty International's report on how Israel discriminates against Israeli Palestinians.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 Жыл бұрын
@munchingsquirrel5067 the UN and Amnesty International and the rest of the white anted humanitarian organisations have no idea what they are doing. First the UN has barely any democratic countries within. 49 Muslim countries, 50 odd dictatorships. Iran has been appointed head of humanitarian. Give me a break. Iran on women’s rights is just first rate. NoT.
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
@@mikei6605 WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? What country did they invade? Oh my God, you really need to stop, you do not know the history AT ALL. Just stop.
@doobeedoo2
@doobeedoo2 Жыл бұрын
Phillipe Sands East West Street, James Baldwin, & Orientalism
@matangox
@matangox Жыл бұрын
Very impressed with Ezra to be able to talk about these issues in an objective manner. As ar as what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank, I think we should ask ourselves if Israel really wants to solve this issue? Is Israel operating in good faith regarding the Palestinian question? I think the answer (for the last 20 years at least) is no, based on what they're doing in the West Bank in terms of the settlements project. I see two possible solutions: 1. The 2 state solution, that can only work in the 67 borders. 2. A one state solution, but with a completely different paradigm. Think about how was the war in Bosnia resolved and also think about countries like Switzerland or even Canada where you have different ethnic groups living side by side. An new union/country should be formed called The Federation of Israel and Palestine where both groups have a constitutionally guaranteed status, so that the one side can't outvote the other side. Any change to the constitution would require a super majority of like above two thirds (or even more) in both entities. The constitution would guarantee equal rights, a common economy EU style, it would require the formation of a "federal" police force that would guarantee the safety of all the citizens and would be responsible for preventing any violence and terrorism from both Hamas and the settlers and would be organized as mixed patrols with 1 Palestinian for 1 Israeli policemen. They would have common army that would defend them from external threats and they would still have an internal police force for each side. If Israelis are worried about being outvoted, a law could be passed so that a palestinial can live wherever and an Israeli can live wherever, but they can vote just for their own side, so there would be no outvoting in the future. It's not perfect, but it's much better than what we have now. All internal borders would dissappear in an agreed upon timeline, for example a 4 year period. That would allow Israel to gradually dismantle the checkpoints and walls gradually and in a safe manner. Long story short, we would have a one state solution with two equal constitutional parts where one side can't outvote the other regarding constitutional questions. That would give security to Jewish Israelis. The "federal" police force would allow Israelis to be present on the ground, on the "other side" in the fight against terrorism and vice versa. Another thing that could be done is deploying UN peace keeping forces in unstable or sensitive areas for a certain period. The situation is terrible, so something needs to be done. Both sides need that ASAP.
@markmann860
@markmann860 Жыл бұрын
I think the two-state solution is the only one achievable right now, but it could be two federated states with the aspiration to move towards a one-state solution once trust has been established in say 30 or 40 years. During those 30-40 years Israel should invest heavily in helping the Palestinians build a prosperous economy.
@susanWilder2175
@susanWilder2175 Жыл бұрын
I’ve been waiting to hear this. But please just speak slightly slower, remembering that this is new info for many of us. Just so fast. Don’t mean to offend.
@ohadbruker8525
@ohadbruker8525 Жыл бұрын
Those talks are the most depressing ones for us the Israelis. Even the most communicative Palestinian representatives - are full of propaganda and lies. Do yourself a service and read about the offers given to the Palestinians. Start with the UN decision in 1947 that the Palestinians refused to accept.
@nwrob1
@nwrob1 Жыл бұрын
That must have been tough. Thanks for what you're doing, Ezra.
@ozidrori9644
@ozidrori9644 Жыл бұрын
just try to find someone who knows Yihia Sinuwar. everything on HAMAS will sound ridicules. the leaders of hamas are something else. extremely violent leadership. try to bring these people. Yuval Biton for instance...
@dlcalliope
@dlcalliope Жыл бұрын
You had better hire a new set of Fact Checkers. They are not doing their job, unless you hired Islamists.
@dlcalliope
@dlcalliope Жыл бұрын
Ezra- you are either ignorant of the facts or a propagandist for the Hamas murderers. You should be ashamed of your weak performance in this interview. Some people will do anything for a buck.
@explore-n
@explore-n Жыл бұрын
This is our land. Israel will win
@ggc259
@ggc259 Жыл бұрын
Fascist.
@explore-n
@explore-n Жыл бұрын
proudly @@ggc259
@mikei6605
@mikei6605 Жыл бұрын
not your land lmao.
@explore-n
@explore-n Жыл бұрын
IDF is taking over gaza!@@mikei6605
@MeandmySara
@MeandmySara Жыл бұрын
I support you.
@LauraJoseph-xk7qz
@LauraJoseph-xk7qz Жыл бұрын
I'm frustrated that no one tackles the question of what the Palestinians and even Hamas say about their positions on Israel but simply assume that they want to destroy Israel
@joanofarc6402
@joanofarc6402 Жыл бұрын
I honestly don’t think there is a permanent, long term solution. It’s really sad I’ve been following this conflict since 1980s. It never gets better. It’s so toxic between both parties. USA gets dragged into this constantly and we can never focus on our own country and healing divide at home. The USA pays Egypt and Jordan billions each year. The USA pays the Palestinians billions each year. Plus we are to blame for this mess. Plus get to a long term permanent solution! Americans are so tired of this. Palestinians and Israelis get more attention from Washington DC than Americans ever had in history! Trillions of our tax $$$ go to a no win , forever fighting conflict. Our U.S. troops are constantly attacked, several with brain damage in the last few weeks. All this so people can fight over land!! Your life is worth more than land. Your children are worth more than land. End this conflict. USA won’t be able to support Israel for much longer with all the chaos and division in our own country! Who will save the USA and America after this?
@ggc259
@ggc259 Жыл бұрын
Obviously, you don't understand.
@chassoune
@chassoune Жыл бұрын
I hope the US stays away from this region altogether. We can see clearly the US was never an honest broker. To answer your questions "Who will save the USA and America after this?" Definitely not Israel. The Israel's will simply milk the US for every possible penny and then shift alliance to the next super power. The average American is utterly stupid for supporting Israel. Absolute no return on that investment.
@joanofarc6402
@joanofarc6402 Жыл бұрын
@@ggc259 I actually REALLY UNDERSTAND! I get it. You hate each other. There’s no solution! I’ve read TONS of books on both sides, followed journalists who lived in Gaza! Both sides believe radical ideology that can’t be removed. Your life is worth more than land! Get reparations and move somewhere calm. The world is sick of this slaughter!
@Israelreality1
@Israelreality1 Жыл бұрын
Waste of time. Palestinian people. That name was not used by Arabs until Arafat. Before that they were just Arabs. There has never been a Palestinian state and, as is made clear by present history, there is no desire or ability or moral fabric of the Arabs to make a Palestinian state. They have refused it multiple times. When 700,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab states, they were taken in by Israel and Jews around the world. When the Arabs ran away from Israel, mostly because their leaders said that they could come back in a few days, no Arab states wanted them. And to this day, the Arab countries refuse to take them in.
@sambaxrock
@sambaxrock Жыл бұрын
sidi Amjad speaking truth to power. Peace upon to you.
@ONE1BEAT
@ONE1BEAT Жыл бұрын
Ezra Klien , did you watch violent videos ? 😂 nope 👎 bet you are comfy with your head space vs reality
@mishoren
@mishoren Жыл бұрын
Any analysis that doesn't mention Arab violence and terrorism since the foundation of Israel, or that doesn't mention Hamas's avowed aim to destroy Israel, as enshrined in its charter, doesn't understand the dynamics of the current conflict.
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