An Overreaction to a Tragic Accident T-38 Crash Vance AFB November 21, 2019

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An Overreaction to a Tragic Accident
T-38 Crash Vance AFB
November 21, 2019

[@jtg1961]

I was stationed at Vance AFB from 1986-89 under Colonel Fig Newton. We maintained the Runway Supervisory units RSUs. We usually had all three runways operating simultaneously in a high traffic training environment. The officers in the RSUs usually were monitoring and scoring the student landings and touch and goes. It was fun working in this high tempo environment. We never lost an aircraft at the airfield in the three years I was stationed there which I thought was amazing considering the training environment.

[@Discipleofthelordandjesus]

Fig Newton🤣😭Is that a joke?

[@jtg1961]

@Discipleofthelordandjesus nope, that was his name. He eventually made 4 Star ⭐⭐⭐⭐ and commanded AETC

[@Discipleofthelordandjesus]

@@jtg1961 yup , just looked dude had over 100 combat missions… wow.

[@jimbalsbaugh7365]

Grief is a very bad basis for making policy.

[@georgemallory797]

Sad set of circumstances all the way around. Ron, you handled this one with compassion and sensitivity for all involved while also providing invaluable insight for the rest of us. I'm so glad your family convinced you to throw your hat into the ring and do videos. I appreciate how well rounded your career was and still is. Very enjoyable videos.

[@ronrogers]

Thank you so much for the nice words.

[@threesin7107]

For the parents' lawyer: 1. Exactly how many hours in the '38 do you have? 2. Since we began flying T-38 formation approach and landings in the early 60's, how many banged together upon landing? (Methinks maybe None?) 3. How many T-38 formation low approaches before subject landing accident resulted in airplanes coming together? and 4. After the subject accident? I get it that user commands no longer have need of formation landings, but on the surface it appears like the lawyer "fixed" a problem we didn't have?

[@ShadesOClarity]

It was a weird and terrible accident - that they flipped all the way over the lead T-38. Juan Browne at Blancolirio did a good analysis of this accident. Kincade had previously flown for the Navy. He was a reservist in the Air Force and that's probably why they had such a senior instructor out there with Wilkie. I loved the T-38s the Thunderbirds flew. Great presentation and photos. It didn't occur to me that you might need to fly someone's wing to get down, like in your situation.

[@threesin7107]

Glad to see you address this accident Ron. Accidents are tough to explore, especially when fatalities are involved. I haven't seen the report but a couple questions I have are: 1. Do 38s now have voice recorders in them? 2.. Did they explore why the IP (apparently) hesitated to take the aircraft? 3. How many hours had the IP had in the 90 days before the accident? 4. Was the IPs age considered as 'contributory?'

[@ronrogers]

1. no voice recorders, 2. Simply unknown, 3. I don't know but being an upper ranking individual, probably not as much as the typical line IP., 4. Age was probably not a factor as much as currency may have been.

[@thedolt9215]

It is very tough for the parents of the student who was killed to see any logic at all through their pain… I blame the Air Force for capitulating… And changing their program…

[@ShadesOClarity]

Even though Browne ended up flying C-141s, he said no matter what kind of jet you were going to fly in their day you had to qualify in the T-38. I agree they shouldn't have taken away formation landings after what Ron said.

[@bobcfi1306]

Thank you for that insight into that accident.

[@jmp.t28b99]

Lowering standards is not the answer to airmanship training. I will leave it at that, lest I degress.

[@oneforallmusicaltheater6838]

A few comments: At 3:05, Vance's runways are only 150' wide, not 300'. Typical AETC pilot training base runways are/were 150' wide, with 300' runways typically found only at bomber/ex-bomber bases. At 9:20 and 9:26, I very seriously doubt that Lt. Wilkie ever flew the T-37, in pilot training or anywhere else. T-37s were withdrawn from service by 2009. I think you meant to say the T-6. At 14:08 and beyond, an "inherently dangerous practice" - agree, flying two aircraft in close proximity is 'inherently dangerous' due to the magnitude of interrelated aerodynamic effects, but I personally would rather have at least seen (if not practiced) wing landings and never actually needed to do one, rather than need to do one without ever having seen (or done) one before. War story: I'm in the front seat, young 2Lt FAIP in back on a BIP ride pulling up closed when we fly through a flock of starlings. Blood & bird guts completely obscure the view out the front. Break out, declare an emergency and head to Smyer for a structural damage/controlability check, another 38 joins on us, no visible structural damage/control issues, but I can't see out the front so I let the other 38 lead us back to the center RW for a long straight-in approach. He lines us up, goes around in the flare, we full stop successfully and all is well. The only time I ever came close to doing a wing landing (other than the few syllabus ones I actually did) but glad I had the experience when I needed it.

[@ronrogers]

You are correct on both counts. Too used to flying at Edwards with the 300 foot wide runways and forgot about ATC. Also, as a former Tweet IP, had too much T-37 on the brain. Good story on your landing however,

[@markcoveryourassets]

Thank you for your additional perspective. The bias that we develop when we are invested in something makes it very hard to give up. The pilot should have been cut from the program. And that is the only thing the family has any basis in suing. Easily said in retrospect, however.

[@planeflyer21]

Thanks, Ron. Sad story with a sad outcome. Am I correct in the belief that all this training policy does is kick the can down the road? In other words, the pilot trainee passes their advanced flight training, so now it is up to their assigned squadron to teach them wing landing procedures? Sadly this sort of policy is all throughout training curricula across modern society. Kicking the can down the road only widens the mesh on the filters meant to weed out those who can't make it, ensuring that even more time and money are wasted in the future, then their unsuitability becomes glaringly obvious... but I digress. 😁 Don't forget to order your t-shirts everyone!

[@rogerrees9845]

What a tragedy......Perhaps he should have been washed out sooner !!!! Thank you for another interesting presentation..Roger...Pembrokeshire

[@jimnikodem9378]

I have done a lot of wing landings after USAF pilot training. Loved it. The ultimate formation maneuver. However a wing approach and drop the wingman off and lead goes around will solve any issue, and is way safer than wing landings. It’s like solo night overhead patterns in the T-38 as a student. It was stupid and unsafe. We got away with it, but when I went to Tactical Air Command (fighters), it was not allowed. Why? Too dangerous for no benefit

[@SRJason747]

Until they get confused as to who is doing the landing and land on top of each other… which happened at Laughlin a couple years after this crash.

[@paulbrogger655]

In afterburner, skidding upside down on the ground (eventually to a stop). Do the engines cut out at some point? How do things end?

[@ronrogers]

Did not see it in the report but would have run out of inverted fuel supply quickly.

[@bja2024]

Neg G flight limited to about 10 secs

[@petrairene]

So, are Air Force flight students who turn out to be unsuitable for fast jets put into transport aircraft instead? How is the elimination rate in the two training aircraft?

[@GustavoRodrigues]

Hey Skipper, an idea for a good presentation (maybe more than one): How you can evaluate an airplane (GA, Airlines) on flight simulators. Like, what are the real world transport aircraft and what we should expect a good "flight dynamics" on any simulator. just an idea. Those test pilot insights are incredible valuable.

[@parkburrets4054]

Ron, I’d be interested in your take on Story Musgrave in the T-38. He’s got more hours than anyone ever will in it.

[@ShadesOClarity]

Story Musgrave is amazing. My old man met him once. He's got more degrees than the sun - including being a physician. I second this motion.

[@theegg-viator4707]

I personally met IP Kincaid at an F18 fly-in in California back in 2008, was a nice guy.

[@georgehaeh4856]

If a student is in difficulty, maybe better to hold off on wing landings until sufficient proficiency gained.

[@k.bronson7343]

Can you explain the "what and why" of the flat piece of material at the top of the verticle stab on the T-38? I would enjoy a T-38 walk around as well as a walk around on some of the other aircraft you have flown in the military and the commercial aviation world.

[@ronrogers]

The original vertical stabilizer was modified due to some unfavorable roll coupling. That little plate, if I remember correctly, is just an endplate to increase stabilizer effectiveness.

[@bja2024]

Localizer antenna up there too?

[@stevenshanofski6801]

Yes, if he was struggling so much why do a wing landing?

[@flyboyu777]

They usually are overreactions. The 4-ship midair at CBM before I got there in the mid 80’s was, and they took it out on our class.

[@scottpadron8370]

No operational aircraft in the USAF does wing landings, and that was the case even before this accident occurred. Every fighter still practices formation instrument approaches though. That’s to handle situations like the one Ron described. In that case you’ll get cleared off for separate landings once you have the runway in sight. Still lets you recover a bad aircraft through the weather, but avoids putting two very expensive jets on the same runway feet apart. It’s strange that they were done in training so long after the follow-on communities determined they weren’t worth the risk. Not a case of AETC lowering standards, just matching what the fighter communities do.

[@planeflyer21]

Thanks for that.

[@jcheck6]

Seriously Scott?? I did wing landings all the time in the Phantom at my operational squadron in Europe and stateside. I have a photo of me leading one. As a side note the one I am flying in the photo was later shot down "accidentally" by a Navy F-14 pilot.

[@scottpadron8370]

@@jcheck6 Of course they’ve been done in the past- my point is that we no longer do them today. AETC took awhile to catch up with that development.

[@cambo1200]

We’ve got an old T-38 on static display at our local airport that came from Edwards.

[@ronrogers]

Where is that and do you know the tail #? I probably flew it at one time.

[@cambo1200]

@@ronrogers Tail is 14956. Plainwell municipal airport.

[@jimw1615]

Plainwell Municipal Airport in Michigan, 1500-foot runway with a 1000-foot overrun. So, the T=38 was trucked into that site. Impressive display, for sure!!

[@briancooper2112]

Parents aren't coping loosing a child.

[@txkflier]

There is nothing inherently wrong with the T-38. It has been a great aircraft and has prepared many thousands of students for their future assignments. Yes, it can bite you if you don't operate it correctly. Trainers aren't supposed to be easy to fly. The North American T-6 Texan was designed to be a handful. When students graduate from flight school, they need to be capable of flying single seat fighters.

[@johnemmert9012]

Sounds like a freak accident where a grieving family thought they could get something out of his death, unfortunately.

[@christopherblack3102]

What was the IP doing when the student had the T-38 lined up way to the left edge of the runway ? That would have been the time to take control away from the student.

[@Jeff-tb9kp]

Re: weather recall - if you could not have joined up could you have diverted to a VFR field more distant from the storms instead of punching out.

[@ronrogers]

Had to wait for my turn to recover and by that time, fuel was getting critical. Could have most likely found a civilian field somewhere.

[@bja2024]

If you knew there was going to be a weather recall.

[@georgew.5639]

Two problems here. Some people think that they know everything. But tend not to completely reason through everything about what it is that they think they know. And the people who are this way will refuse to listen to the people who truly know what it is they’re talking about. And when these people have too much clout, they make a complete mess of everything. FUBAR.

[@terrydavis8451]

What is the closest you have got yourself to dying?

[@ronrogers]

There were 4 times in the Air Force that I came very close. Have thought about a video on it.

[@terrydavis8451]

@@ronrogers Awesome, I look forward to it. I have thoroughly enjoyed your videos from the very start. I wish we had youtube when people like Bob Hoover to have a channel like this. So many interesting stories go to the grave. Soon no one will recognize this country and at least there will be some tales about the pinnacle of US power and technology.

[@onkelfabs6408]

Can punching out cause you back problems that are so bad that they end your career as a fighter pilot?

[@tubester444]

It’s possible but not likely for a single ejection.

[@jimdavenport8020]

Too many variables. If the aircraft is stable and you have time to position yourself correctly, not that much chance of a serious back injury. If the aircraft is pitching/rolling wildly - as it might be after sustaining battle damage - all bets are off. More serious injuries occur from ejecting at very high speed due to flailing of the arms and legs. Ejections have been survived in conventional seats over Mach 1 ... but serious injuries resulted. More did not survive.

[@jetdriver]

Ron I think you’re being unfair to the Air Force and to a degree the family here. The fact is the operational communities (F-16, F-15 etc) had long before this accident stopped doing wing landings because they judged that the risk/reward ratio was out of whack. If you’re never going to do a wing landing after training why train the maneuver? Yes this accident was the catalyst for the change. But the fact that the operational units had discontinued the practice was the real reason it was discontinued in training.

[@bja2024]

Every contact sortie began with a heavy weight simulated single engine approach to a touch and go. Several crews were lost through the years to Sabre dances when the aircraft flipped upside down and impacted the ground/runway yet seldom if ever do I remember someone flying a real single engine heavy weight approach and landing. Even if it is demoed to Stanley he should see it and not fear it. Approaches to actual minimums, save story.

[@stay_at_home_astronaut]

Lead is the easiest position to fly.

[@ronrogers]

Lead takes a lot of planning and smoothness. Wing is just "wingtip in the star." I suddenly noticed that I was inverted (ground above the canopy) when I was halfway through an aileron roll on the wing. At EDW NOT, an ATC T-38. Not briefed ahead of time, and I said "oh" and my LtCol boss in the back seat started laughing at my surprise.