Analyzing “Friends” Reunion Star Matthew Perry’s Heated Debate with Peter Hitchens

What does it look like when the usual politeness rules are overridden in a conversation? This is a linguistic analysis of Matthew Perry and Peter Hitchens’ heated debate about addiction. *Like, Comment, Subscribe*
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I’m a Danish linguist, educated in Statement Analysis (SA) & Conversation Analysis (CA). Both methods agree that language is meaningful and should be analyzed as such, and both methods are detail-oriented. The truth is revealed in the implications of a subject’s statements.
This video has an educational purpose and is made according to the terms of ‘fair use’.

[@Libertariun]

In the end Perry admits that it is willpower that enables him to stop. If it was a disease willpower wouldn’t work. You couldn’t will yourself out of cancer or a heart attack.

[@petermcnamara5378]

100cc's of willpower stat

[@fluffybunnyz285]

Perry high on copium

[@WilhelmFreidrich]

I did.

[@vicariousjohnson9823]

@@WilhelmFreidrich no, you did not.

[@haiyanli431]

It is related to a disease of “mental power” or “mental illness”, it’s not the diseases such as cancer or heart attack, where you can easily find an organ that have problems and treat them. It’s is a “disease” beyond Perry’s control.

[@tbecker403]

I have bad allergies. I’ve never heard of an allergy that compels a person to unwillingly consume the thing they are allergic to.

[@juliodyarzagaray]

A superb analogy. One may not have control over the reaction but they certainly choose whether they have contact with the allergen in the first place.

[@dohctorsmith1]

Very good.

[@dreamclaw00]

That's so out of context.

[@mulemule]

@@dreamclaw00 Utterly false equivalency. 🤷‍♂

[@ohheyemmi]

Weird. Almost like you're not an addict but are using your NON ADDICT experiences to deny those of actual ADDICTS. Please do even 10 minutes of research. The brains of addicts are quite literally physically altered in areas associated with memory, self control, judgement, willpower, decision making, and learning. I disagree with him that its an allergy, its not. It is a neurological disease that literally changes the volume of gray matter and activation in your brain. Allergies are a physical reaction of your BODY to a particular chemical. Addiction is a disease of the brain. Please do even a little bit of research before posting ignorant and uninformed opinions on things you know nothing about. Please.

[@lauchiemacdonald6411]

As absurd as Hitchens is, I can’t stand the lack of personal accountability that comes with calling it a disease or especially “allergy”. As a former addict, the truth is that disease or not, it’s still on ME.

[@22448824]

If it’s “still on you” then how is it absurd of Hitchens to say it’s a choice? Surely choice and “on you” is the same thing.

[@fluffybunnyz285]

Addiction is not only your fault though There’s a realization of needing to want help first

[@sugarspice7768]

I wouldn't use the word absurd. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It is willpower but some people need more willpower than others. For example Perry has to exercise a greater amount of willpower than Hitchens. If both men were offered a drink, and both refused, Perry would have had to exercise a tremendous amount of willpower that Hitchens has never experienced. I think Hitchens failed to appreciate the strength and work it takes to overcome an addiction. It's not as simple as "just stop".

[@minorityofthought1306]

Well said.

[@AntifaareFascists-zv6xk]

"Allergy" is a real part of it, "disease" is not. The red nose or Asian glow as it's known is an alcohol allergy. You don't do anything more because you're allergic. Alcohol isn't special.

[@dukecity7688]

Matthew Perry has nothing to offer. He has positioned himself an authority. I attended AA for almost 25 yrs. I always gave people like him a wide berth.

[@aaronwatter]

I strongly disagree with Hutchins' general argument, and implications for policy. But I strongly agree with you that Perry does not make a good account of himself here. His statements also show that lived experience and familiarity with the "Big Book" does not necessarily make one an out-and-out expert on addiction. Although 12-steps CAN evidently make one quite a dogmatic chauvinist on some VERY outdated (and non-scientific) ideas about addiction!

[@derekhamel2991]

Perry seemed to have tied one on right before the show. Though his demeanor, complexion, and general untidiness give more of an impression he's spun out on something. I believe he used to be an avid coke aficionado, but his performance in this clip strikes more of an amphetamine tone. Didn't realize Chris had written on this subject, but considering who his brother was, I'm suprised no one has argued that having had a front row seat to a symptomatic behavior of classical alcoholism, albeit within a functional vs debilitated manner, no one has posited he might just have a bit of insight. anyway.

[@randylahey8207]

​@@derekhamel2991it's one of the hardest subjects for people to break from their personal story and beliefs. I think both of them actually have some valid points, but it turns into personal bickering and straw men based on vernacular. I might expect that from someone like Matthew Perry, but Hitchens handles himself very poorly here. He's supposed to be the calm, collected big thinker and yet he can't help but roll his eyes which antagonizes just about everyone, especially on such a touchy issue. And yeah, Matthew definitely looks buzzed....

[@censedfear]

​@@derekhamel2991what a crap contribution to the comment section.

[@deepzepp4176]

Good for you. It's very cult like.

[@raymondpatrick430]

I'm a drug addict and Matthew Perry and every counselor I've talked to is wrong. Addiction is NOT a disease. It's a coping mechanism, an escape, a means to hurt yourself or simply a means to feel better. That's it. I know what Matthew Perry is talking about when he said he couldn't stop thinking about alcohol when he started thinking about it but that's because he knows what it would lead to. I also have that problem (not with alcohol but another drug) but it still comes down to making the choice to not follow that line of thought. And as far as if those "policies" which Matthew Perry claim are working I would ask then why are there more drug addicts today then there was 10, 20 or 30 years ago? It's because there's no deterrent to do so. The clinic I go to they actually talk all day about how it's ok to be an addict and that the stigma will break soon enough. What kind of backwards logic is this!? A one size fits all program for all addicts will never work and until this is addressed it's only gonna get worse.

[@bevonkacon17]

I would ask, "Why are there more people on Earth today?"

[@leukdagen11]

@raymondpatrick430, yours is the wisest comment I’ve read here so far. Thank you!

[@martinsolomon5500]

@@bevonkacon17because the governments haven’t forced their populations to all kill each other like they have done increasingly so since around 2000 years ago. When wars and empires and torture and slavery really kicked off probably around the time of Jesus. Then the sh t really hit the fan and didn’t calm down until World War II Since then the natural culling through endless wars with neighbors has slowed down dramatically. Far more mobility and mixed nations and therefore a government can’t use “foreigner is enemy, your country needs you” because the majority of the worlds countries especially Europe aren’t “national” they are “international” so a third to half of the population have no fervor or patriotism for where they live. They wouldn’t go to war if they were paid. They would ignore such a request So. Populations are growing…and medicines are getting better. It mainly no wars. Because people can still die quite young randomly.

[@sole__doubt]

The rehab industry makes more dough if its seen as a disease.

[@beginization]

Still sad he died in pool maybe because of drink.

[@Giarcnek]

Hitchens doesn't let Perry off the hook for having very little self-control. Perry makes himself a victim of his own self-perceived addictions.

[@bobbiescrisps9208]

I think this maybe the American way unfortunately

[@brianbauer7560]

​@@bobbiescrisps9208I'm American. I'm also an alcoholic/addict. However, I make a conscious decision to drink or use. I don't believe it's a disease. It's a choice. I was sent to rehab when I was 16 and my first 2 weeks there I had to wear a hospital gown to symbolize my "Sickness or Disease". I never believed I had a disease. I had an addiction.

[@paulwally9007]

@@brianbauer7560 In 12 Step literature addiction is referred to as a disease. Scientifically, it's not an accurate description, but I think it's a useful metaphor for people grappling with the problem who are looking for simplistic directions to follow.

[@anthonyscalzo9633]

You know nothing about addiction. One day, you will experience what addiction is, mayb not yourself, someone close will show you addiction. It's not a choice many things attribute to addiction. It's not black and white. It's extremely complex and its offensive when anyone speaks about drug addicts and have never experienced what addiction is.

[@Giarcnek]

@@anthonyscalzo9633 Whoa...Slow your role. Just about everyone has a choice as to what they consume and or imbibe.

[@Ridingrules10000]

Matthew's claim that he can't stop because of an allergic reaction that follows the first drink could be tested easily by dropping him in the middle of nowhere with one drink. I've got money that says no allergic reaction will follow if he drinks that one drink.

[@NEH85]

I didn't know it but I am also extremely allergic to alcohol. Don't you actually get extremely intoxicated almost immediately if you're actually allergic?

[@Ridingrules10000]

@@NEH85, I know that some people have wildly different reactions to alcohol, but lowering inhibitions is a pretty standard reaction to it. That's why a lot of people drink it in the first place. "Not being able to prevent yourself from drinking a second drink" is NOT an allergic reaction.

[@TravisHi_YT]

I think maybe he meant withdrawal symptoms, which can be terminal for people like him that were drinking so much.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Yeah Perry is clearly totally wrong here, I am as likely to get a allergic reaction listening to his nonsense, than he is from drinking that one drink.

[@ohheyemmi]

@@Ridingrules10000 No, it isn't. But is IS a neurological disease that literally changes the structure of your brain in areas associated with learning, memory, judgement, willpower, self control, and decision making. So yeah, its a choice, but that choice is exponentially harder to make for addicts. Not impossible, sure, but damn near. Its like walking up a hill with 400 lbs. of weight around your neck. Every step is a choice, but with every step your muscles ache more, you become more exhausted, dehydrated, and malnourished, your emotions heighten, and your body shakes. With every step you wonder why you are putting yourself through this and the bottom of that hill looks MUCH better than all of this pain and suffering. Saying sh*t like this is like telling a person with Major Depressive Disorder to "just get some exercise" or telling someone with DID to "just stop dissociating" or someone with bipolar disorder to "just calm yourself down" during a manic episode or someone with OCD to "just stop obsessing" or someone with ADHD to "just pay attention." Yeah, that'd be great, but if we could don't you think we would? Sure, someone with depression is physically capable of getting exercise, but half the time we can't even get out of bed.

[@gooberthoreau]

This is a message from the future: Turns out Perry's methods weren't super successful for him.

[@stefwessels955]

I've had a problem with alcohol since I was 13..I stopped when I was 39 because of nerve problems. It was a very horrible time of my life. I am 49 now and I can tell you that it was the best decision I HAD to make to save what's left of my life. In my case I was drinking to feel better and more like a normal person who enjoys socializing.

[@richvail7551]

That’s awesome that you saw what was happening and got off the merry go round. The issue with addiction is exactly what you experienced. An addict may see the signposts you’re seeing but will still see the scenario as more positive than negative. Reason being is that the allergy with alcohol in the body of an alcoholic is a change in how the body breaks down alcohol in the body. In an alcoholic, the break down causes more of an energy boost plus more biological terminology’s that would require me to break out some books to say correctly. So it’s this allergy that makes it impossible to stop once started and the 2nd part of the illness which is the obsession of the mind which makes us think about the 1st drink in the 1st place. If one was too label your type of drinking, you could put yourself in the other 2 categories that you feel fits you better. The social drinker that drinks 1 or 2 drinks and starts feeling uneasy or the heavy drinker that when confronted with the evidence through themselves or a doctor, they can put down the drink and carry on. Unless things have changed over the years, the medical establishment has recognized alcoholism as a medical condition.

[@stefwessels955]

@@richvail7551 I was(and still is) definitely, properly, physically addicted to alcohol. But I have a very analytical mind and an unbreakable will to survive. I dragged myself from the pits of hell.. On my own with NO help. It took 3 and a half years before I was feeling normal and healthy. Supplements, exercise, good food, hard work and in my case a little cannabis to help me relax and sleep. Ten years later and my life is good.

[@stefwessels955]

I would agree on the breakdown of the alcohol though. That was the reason why I was so hooked for so long. I don't get drunk. I just get more lively and fun. And I can consume masses of alcohol at one session. So yes I'm a proper alcoholic.. That got over it.

[@richvail7551]

@@stefwessels955 That’s wonderful. You’re are a rare duck. I have 2 friends that have done the same thing. When I say you’re a rare duck, what I mean is that I’ve been sober over 20 years and I’ve lived in 4 different places and been in countless meetings and a few of them have been in different countries. I know of 2 people possibly 3 that have been in the same condition or worse than myself and saw a different way of living and changed to match that new way of living. So congrats. You are definitely built different.

[@stefwessels955]

@@richvail7551 Thank you friend. I am very grateful I am able to maintain my sobriety to this day. It's something I have to reinforce at every social occasion as drinking in South Africa is a national pass time 😂but life without the guilt, shame and hangovers is so worth living. Thanks for the chat

[@mofftarkin78]

I'm not a smart guy, but I play one on TV. - Matthew Perry

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

He is certainly not a smart guy, and I think we may be better of if he played less on TV.

[@mofftarkin78]

@@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution Your wish was granted a few days ago. RIP

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@mofftarkin78 Yeah, his argument ultimately defeated him, sad he could not have listened and learned more before it was too late. I guess he would have to hope he is wrong now, for otherwise a rest in peace would also be impossible for him.

[@jankogo]

This is a general issue in some debates when you invite obviously very educated people and others who are just famous. That makes the so-called "debate" ridiculous. You may disagree or dislike Hitchens, but he is miles ahead in argumentative skills.

[@honeymuffinn]

My brother needed a liver transplant. He was told if he didn’t stop drinking for six months they would not do the transplant because there would be no point if he did not quit. They would use the heathy liver for someone who would take care of their health. He quit drinking that day. He was an alcoholic for 40 years. If only he had done that many years ago. There was no liver available at that time for him. They put him on a waiting list and it goes by priority such as age and who will take care of themselves. Many people waiting on transplants through no fault of their own. He passed away about 11 months later. Btw. He did not think drinking was a disease. It is a choice. My father was an alcoholic and pill popper. It killed him. That’s the way he chose to live. I drank as a teenager but I had a lot of alcoholics in my family and I chose not to end up like that. It destroys lives. 😢

[@serenityinside1]

Lost my best friend To it c 12, years ago. Horrible to watch , ruined her relationship with her daughter. Caused me heartache. Addicts don’t understand or care the damage they do to those around them .

[@wintercame]

I'm sorry for the losses in your family. You've just made, perhaps without realizing it, a strong argument for familial (genetic/hereditary) alcoholism - meaning it's transmitted *as a disease.*

[@capecodder04]

I've been sober since August 18th, 2010 and I've been through the 12 Steps and going to meetings since 2008. I never liked the idea that alcoholism is a disease either but I have no problem with considering it an addiction described as a mental obsession or physical compulsion as it says in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am a Catholic and I follow Catholic Priests who perform exorcists and teach on spiritual warfare and one of their names is Father Chad Ripperger and he has described all addictions and all sin as demonic. Satan actually has Generals in his army that control different aspects of sin and our society. Father Ripperger has said that there are Generational Spirits, Generational Curses and Sins of the Father etc that come into a family through the parents (usually the father) and alcoholism and drug abuse is one of those spirits. Coincidentally, or not, alcohol used to be called "Spirits". People can say that alcoholism or drug abuse or addictions in general are in the genes or it's hereditary but it boils down to demonic spirits and sin; just like original sin from Adam and Eve which we were all born into and with original sin which is passed down through every generation. I know that most people reading this will not read will not believe this and that's okay but this is what I believe and I believe it because these Catholic Priests are dealing with demons directly, casting them out and learning how they operate and are now teaching people who will listen how the demonic world works and how they influence us in our lives and it makes sense to me to listen to them based on their knowledge and experience first hand with dealing with demons. Just like if someone was going to build a house they would consult with a builder for someone who knows how to build a house or hire a builder. An exorcist Priest has credibility to me when talking about how demons act in our lives and what we should do to avoid demonic influence and if they give advice on this subject I'm going to take their advice seriously and listen to them.

[@McVaio]

​@@wintercame If it were a disease, how did he just decide to stop being ill one day?

[@wintercame]

@@McVaio The same way people fight cancer. And as a chronic condition it still exists even once sober.

[@darthlaurel]

I don't like Hitchins, but he's MUCH better at debating than the other guy. And I agree with his basic premise. Also, pick a decade when the AMA hasn't been wrong about assertions regarding health and treatment. Recent history shows how politically motivated treatment has become.

[@jumblestiltskin1365]

Quite right, they are very much a political animal these days along with much of western institution. This is very much to its immense discredit, and that of the society they serve.

[@notsocrates9529]

He is a sophist and a part of a larger problem.

[@matthewshepherd7956]

"The other guy". I love it😅

[@mynewcolour]

Hitchins is not good but is a career debater. Perry is not prepared or good at this. The argument around free will is tied up in morality (and blame/shame) and important for each of these men. But morality is a distraction. The reason health authorities treat addictions like disease is because that method is proven to get results. The discussion may have been better if contained to practicalities of how to best help existing addicts to function. Personally I think Hitchens ideas on prohibition are remarkably naive.

[@hoochygucci9432]

THE AMA is right far more than it is wrong by an huge margin. You are cherry pricking and generalising.

[@TrimTrimmer]

I don’t understand why you would call addiction a disease. As someone who was addicted and then quit, quitting the addiction did not leave me diseased because I wasn’t diseased I was addicted

[@Gabrielle4870]

Disease = excuse Choice = responsibility

[@jdgoesham5381]

It's a cope.

[@TrimTrimmer]

@@Gabrielle4870 yeah totally agree. Although it might be something Americans do, they call STI’s STD’s and that isn’t correct either.

[@K.j.h.279]

I think the cause of addiction is having a mental issue in the first place, which is indeed an illness. you just want to ease the pain that others obviously don't suffer. .imo.

[@songshineoriginalmusic]

@@Gabrielle4870 Yes that has been one thought I have had watching this. I am stunned at the lack of the use of moderators, words that show it is only your opinion like "to my mind...", by both but particularly Perry is notable. You ask yourself "why is he is so attached to his position?" And I think it is because if Hitchen's theory is correct he stops being a victim. Now he is doing it to himself.

[@Fieldeluxe]

Fascinating breakdown. With regards to the argument itself, as an alcoholic, I recognize the points Perry is making. He's using things he's learned in rehab and at AA that have helped him, fair enough but Hitchens is right, ultimately. There is no such thing as an allergy to alcohol that causes you to drink uncontrollably, its a metaphor used to dissuade addicts from relapsing.

[@showmethescience2514]

Disagree

[@vanguard4065]

the allergy is a “theory” as said in the big book of aa. perry is a pretentious ass. i dont feel sorry for him.

[@ewanwarr3745]

@@showmethescience2514 good point

[@fredhubbard7210]

More wisdom in your few words, the entirety of this mockery of debate.

[@andrewflanders262]

The craving you get for another drink after the first drink is palpable to most people. Lots of disfunctions of the brain don't have a clinical diagnosis, because brain science is still rather young.

[@flightographist]

Perry apparently fell prey to the most common aberration associated with substance abuse- believing he, as an addict, is an expert on addiction.

[@donpeace894]

Very interesting

[@JonnyAbs-0]

Good point. He is only an expert at being an addict

[@ejtattersall156]

If there is no physiological aspect, then everyone who tried drugs would become an addict. Most people who try drugs, don't feel the pain associated with withdrawal strongly enough to become an addict. I never became an addict, not because I didn't like being high, but because when the high was over I didn't feel the physical and psychological compulsion to get high again. Hitchens is so brilliant, I guess he let his alcoholic, cigarette-addicted brother die.

[@Jnivella]

Exactly, it’s like saying that victims of sexual abuse shouldn’t go around sermonizing about the evils of sexual abuse, they aren’t experts on sexual abuse, am I right? That’s your take by the way. I am always surprised to see pseudo-intellectuals try to diminish others’ perceptions of their social experiences as mere fog, with such confidence.

[@JonnyAbs-0]

@Jnivella it's also the manner in which he did it. He was a condescending dick and relied heavily on personal attacks and felt like the mainstream narrative vindicated him.

[@pursue513]

"...Well...Santa " sounds like a bad F r I e n d s line

[@danielkoschalka3955]

That is a really weak attempt at humour. He’s a funny man (at least in Friends) but that line is awful. And the other two people laughing is weird and feels somewhat sycophantic. This is not a comment on whether he’s right or wrong, btw.

[@jasonspalding2929]

Speaking as a person who was an addict, you absolutely have the choice to stop. It's extremely hard and it will make you do things against your will, but you are still the one deciding to go against your will. If you didn't have a choice, you would never stop and obviously that's a falsehood seeing as how people (myself included) stop.

[@Real_LiamOBryan]

Yes. Quite right. We do a disservice to people by removing all agency and, therefore, accountability. We use ordinary language like, I can't stop eating the cheesecake, but we mustn't take that so literally as if to imply that there is some ethereal force acting upon us so as to induce or prevent actions arising from our agency.

[@gonzo3915]

100% correct, 15 years clean from Heroin(iv), Crack and Coke. You decide and it can only be done if you want it more than the invisible prison.

[@Tindel10]

Jesus can save people from addiction

[@Mcfreddo]

That means you have an addiction. I mean, get real.

[@Mcfreddo]

@@Tindel10Yeah, prove it.

[@robertdavis100]

his brother was an alcoholic . the older i get the more i agree with peter hitchens

[@martinliehs2513]

You speak of the unforgettable Christopher Hitchens. I believe that he claimed to be a regular drinker, but always in control.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@martinliehs2513 Obviously he spoke of Peter Hitchens, you know the man in the video above you commented under....who clearly won this argument against Matthew Perry who was all over the place.

[@elemar5]

The original comment was about the brother of Peter Hitchens, Christopher.@@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@elemar5 Then why is the name Peter Hitchens mentioned specifically?

[@elemar5]

Did you miss the bit at the start where he says his brother was an alcoholic?@@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution

[@sukijay4990]

I suppose it’s hard for Matthew Perry to admit to the weakness of character that caused him to make a mess of his life with repeated bouts of drunkenness. It’s much nicer for him to be able to blame it all on having a disease and an allergy to alcohol. No wonder he got so red faced and abusive when his victimhood was challenged.

[@jumblestiltskin1365]

I remember the original debate on TV, it was painful watching Perry inexpertly wash his stained victimhood underwear in public. I had little pity for him as his wealth would always ensure he would land on his feet. This unlike some poor ghetto youngster on a path that only leads to death and misery.

[@MrJeffcoley1]

Matthew Perry was introduced to drugs by River Phoenix. If he had never tried them, he would have never become addicted to them which ultimately led to his untimely death. Point Hitchins.

[@petep.2092]

What would your pity have done for him?

[@sukijay4990]

@@petep.2092 what pity was that? Show me in my comment where I expressed pity.

[@jumblestiltskin1365]

@@sukijay4990 I'd imagine he's talking about my comment. I don't have an answer for him.

[@stevestephens4106]

As a former addict I agree w Hitchens

[@babergill2890]

No Steve hot hens is an idiot Matthew perry was right drugs and being a drug addict or alcoholic is a disease

[@TwistedSister1234]

..and as an alcoholic who has been living in grateful sobriety for 13 years I too agree with Peter Hitchens.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Yeah Hitchens is right and Perry is wrong, no doubt about it.

[@terrerov]

You are not a former addict.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@terrerov Exactly because I choose not to be, because being a addict is a very bad irresponsible CHOICE!

[@martindecoder]

The “friends” are reuniting. Will Perry and Hitchens ever reunite? More content coming soon. Have a nice day.

[@abornleader2474]

Probably not

[@sadeatthewhip1846]

Let's hope it's not over drinks

[@wintercomesearly]

Oh! you mean there's more?? I look forward. Wishing you a pleasant weekend, Martin.

[@SigrunHT]

No because Peter Hitchens is a pompous ass who's unwilling to listen and learn something.

[@thehousespouse]

I’m honestly surprised that Perry had the patience to deal with him to begin with. The way Hitchens uses the word “fantasy” in the beginning and then hypocritically says that Perry can’t argue seriously when he was the one who brought the tone of the debate down, would require the patience of the Pope.

[@vicariousjohnson9823]

My Mom is an alcoholic. My brother died from alcoholism. Calling this a disease releases people from personal responsibility. Is it hard to beat. Yes. Is it impossible and completely out of your control, like cancer? Absolutely not.

[@deepzepp4176]

Spot on.

[@dreamclaw00]

You're actually talking rubbish. If you look at the statistics you will see that it's easier to recover from a catastrophic brain injury than it is the recover from addiction. It's not about personal responsibility, it's about neurochemistry.

[@mrsteve170]

Completely agree. Speaking from personal experience. It is not a disease.

[@songshineoriginalmusic]

Cancer is a disease that can be beaten we know. So too is alcoholism. But it is only a disease when it starts to affect the brain and body, and it does when it reaches a certain stage I think. Now the intervention looks different. It is a choice to start out but progresses to a disease if you repeat the choice for long enough. The disease of alcoholism is a critical choice at a certain stage that one has to recognize but many are unable because it DISABLES one's willpower which removes choosing as an option. It's a disability of the mind now that affects the body. He should make that distinction. It is totally beatable but can be very difficult for many who have other issues in the background going on, like incredible loss of loved ones - there are reasons people drink that are understandable in a country where alcohol is legal as if to say "drink up it's only American". I could tell my drinking was headed that way 16 years ago. But I made a choice to stop because I recognized it in time. Not everyone does. So Hitchen's is right to some degree and would do well to acknowledge that there are stages to alcoholism. Because he seems to not make that distinction in his theory and is being trashed. But they are both right, both things can be true and are I believe. All my humble opinion.

[@songshineoriginalmusic]

@@dreamclaw00 It is a disease after a certain stage is my view. There are stages of alcoholism and addiction. If you drink regularly, no matter a beer or glass of wine, you are a functioning alcoholic. At a certain stage it starts to affect the body however and you become dysfunctional metaphysically. If you use opiates for example there is a point where your body starts to demand it, although it is trickier because if you have a real reason to use them to reduce pain in your body then you cannot easily discern when it is affecting your body negatively elsewhere. If you are using it for pleasure then you may be disassociated from the negative consequences to your body. It too involves a consistent daily choice over a period of time leading up to a point where if the choice is continued the body is affected negatively and the mind can no longer easily reconcile the cravings of the body. New neural pathways take shape and willpower becomes disabled. 16 years sober because I saw and made that choice in time I think. This is all just my theory. Both are true, it's a choice and a disease.

[@willawallace9236]

I'm sure it was very comforting to Matthew Perry to frame addiction solely as a disease. It means it's not his fault, it's out of his control, and removes a lot of the impetus to do something serious about it. That said, I am in no way saying he deserved what he got, just because I agree that it is ultimately a choice. I'm actually very sorry that the damage to his body from his addiction is likely what ultimately killed him at such a young age, and left so much of his talent and promise unfulfilled.

[@granthill2980]

@@cthulhucrews6602 EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@granthill2980]

Addiction is something that you CAN'T control!!! Not sure about the desease part, but its something your a complete slave to and will degrade yourself to the most horrendous point you never thought possible. So what is that!?! If you ain't been there, you cant judge it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@DK-Coffee]

Not true. Diabetes is a disease and so is obesity . You can have a disease that changes biology and processing.

[@ejtattersall156]

You do know that his parents were giving him barbiturates when he was a child. That had to have created physiological changes that made him an addict the rest of his life.

[@Rick-the-Swift]

I think what Hitchens and most of his fans overlook is we are all addicted to something- for most of us it's food. Very rarely will you ever encounter someone who eats exactly enough of the best available food. No, we can just as easily say it was Hitchens addiction to sweets, fried chips, coffee etc. that caused the damage to his body which ultimately did him in. Perhaps it was Perry's use of alcohol which in fact kept stress and anxiety from doing as much damage as it could have otherwise. Why all the hypocrisy, and finger pointing towards people we really know very little about other than what they've shared on tv, which may or not be the whole truth? Just my thoughts.

[@keiranbradley3238]

I was a chronic heroin addict for 20 odd years along with regular doses of cocaine/valium/ and any other drug I could find to abuse. Hitchens is correct, it's not a disease but a choice. Whilst I myself am now free of drugs many if not all of my former acquaintances/friends are still in the abyss of addiction. The horrors of withdrawal symptoms are nothing in comparison to the realisation that you are losing your very soul to utter waste of time/money and energy it takes to feed a chronic drug habit but it can only be broken by one thing,,,,,,,,,,,YOU!.

[@ballaservices9275]

Well said, and well done getting yourself off drugs. What Perry is essentially saying is that because he has an addiction it's necessary for everyone else in society to tolerate and de-criminalize drugs. Because he hasn't got sufficient willpower, we all have to live in a less safe world. That's called being very selfish, Mr. Perry.

[@lukekerry3195]

What do you think the word disease means?

[@keiranbradley3238]

@ballaservices9275 Correct. For far too long I bought into the whole "chemical imbalance" and all the other psycho babble dressed up as excuses for selfishness. It's a choice, plain and fucking simple!.

[@markwildt5728]

This is objectively false... Similar to what Perry said about the first drink being a choice, the initial use of the substances is in fact a choice. And probably arguably many times after that as well... However, it has been objectively proven that over the course of time, especially with harsher chemical based drugs, it literally rewires the neurological pathways of the brain. It's wired your brain to think withdrawals is your body dying, and you need more of the substance to survive. It no longer becomes a choice and is quite literally a matter of life and death according to the brain chemistry. However, this can be reversed if the addict can force themselves to ignore what their brain is telling them, and push through the pain and torment of withdrawals, including the acute withdrawals that can occur for months and even years after getting clean. That acute withdrawal is literally the brain rewiring the neurological pathways back to it's formal self, if there hasn't been too much damage already. So you and Hitchens are simply wrong. Addiction is not always, and in fact very rarely is as simple as making a "choice." However, the one thing I disagree with the addiction and recovery community with is the notion that once an addict always an addict. You can get clean, recover and rewire your brain to become a normal functioning member of society that doesn't have to constantly worry about that first drink, or even like myself, someone who can actually enjoy a few beers without not being able to put it down, or immediately jumping in my car to my dealer. And yes, I am a recovered heroin addict of over 20 years myself. But unlike most people who immediately start off their braindead take with a qualifying "As a (insert identity here)..." statement, before rambling on some gibberish nonsense, I felt it was more important to speak the facts first, and then follow it up with the fact that I'm not only speaking from being informed and educated on the matter, but also through a personal experience. However, despite being utterly wrong on this topic, I would like to congratulate and commend you for your recovery and taking your life back. But I want to caution you from continuing to spread this dangerous misinformation, because someone who is currently addicted beyond a choice, being told it's simply a choice, could very easily wonder what's wrong with them that they can't seem to make this simple choice that everyone keeps telling them it is. And I have personally seen this mentality lead to permanently deleting themselves because they felt utterly powerless over a simple "choice." So please educate yourself, and work towards helping those in need instead of telling them they're weak and useless.

[@bipolarmotorjeffpenney2153]

This is real talk. Congratulations on reclaiming yourself warrior.

[@neilsun2521]

All Perry needed to say was "physical withdrawals are real".

[@goodcatfilms4276]

How so

[@neilsun2521]

@@goodcatfilms4276 With his mouth?

[@goodcatfilms4276]

@@neilsun2521 no smarty pants how would that win the argument lol

[@22448824]

Just stating that people get physical withdrawal symptoms when quitting alcohol doesn’t mean that they can’t choose to give up.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Maybe all he should have said is that he admits mental illness from drug and alcohol addiction, for that was about the only thing he said that made any sense whatsoever.

[@americanlostinvietnam3721]

I was addicted to alcohol. When I quit, I went through withdraws. When I quit smoking it was difficult. But there are those who accept a place of defeatism, and there are those that are able to overcome. It is absolutely a choice, made by someone who has had enough of being a victim and wants more than being controlled by substances.

[@dohctorsmith1]

Never in a million years did I ever think I would side with Hitchens on anything but here we are.

[@fribersson]

Very sad to see which approach led to worse outcomes :-/ It seemed predictable, and I truly am sorry it was. May he rest in peace.

[@brahmsianer5899]

The problem here is that normally you would never use a personal medical subject for a general discussion. The discussion was set up to fail, because every single point of Hitchens goes directly against Perry's most personal issues. And vice versa, every point of Perry is drenched in subjectivity.

[@donpeace894]

I thought I was an alcoholic. I went to AA for years. Then I stopped going. And I remained sober for 25 years. Now I absolutely do not think it's a disease. It's a choice.

[@INTJ91]

They’re both right. Addiction is a disease - but initially taking drugs and subsequently getting clean are also a choice.

[@aujax1]

what he should have said is that the allergy manifests as a craving that is overpowering this is why the behavior continues. If you have not experienced this, it is very easy to dismiss it as being weak willed, but when it consumes your every moment making you miserable, psychotic, desperate, even suicidal you are compelled to seek relief.

[@djw8591]

HOLD your horses! Class with Martin is in session. 😊😊🌻🌻

[@mhsandifer]

By Perry's standards, i was "addicted"to cigarettes. One day, when my granddaughter was about to turn 1, i decided to never smoke again and haven't. Addiction is mental. Any physical withdrawals can be dealt with. The mental failure occurs to those with weak minds

[@bganonimouse2754]

In most cases smokers are addicted to the nicotine in cigarettes - that's a fact rather than Perry's standard. By the standard you set you were weak minded for much of your life and only chose to be stronger once you became a grandfather. If you want to be hard on others, make sure to take a good look in the mirror and judge yourself by your own standards.

[@birdiedog5]

I believe it is a mental illness.

[@j.joseph5353]

Addiction can be physical, mental, or both. While I'm very glad you overcame your addiction, it does not negate the existence of addiction. There is a physical component to nicotine addiction. There is a physical component to alcohol addiction. They manifest differently. Marijuana, does not have a physical component and any 'addiction' to it is purely imagined. You mention that physical withdrawals can be dealt with, and that is very often true, but the fact that those symptoms exist and are not imaginary proves the point. To further illustrate this, long-term alcoholics can be in serious danger of death (kidney failure and other serious issues) if they quit cold-turkey. You cannot willpower your way out of kidney failure. Again, congratulations on overcoming your addiction, but it is unwise to assume all addictions are mental when we both know you cannot support it with any meaningful evidence. Everything I have stated is supported by mountains of literature, should you care to research my claims and extend your 'knowledge' beyond the anecdotal.

[@GuapoTron88]

I used to take probation kids to NA meetings every week and the whole “disease” thing used to make me roll my eyes inside my mind. I think the disease thing is to help alleviate the burden of guilt and shame addicts feel when they realize the weight of their moral failures. I can see how some of these folks feel so bad about themselves that their sense of worthlessness is a major obstacle to them having the will to get sober. I’m not trying to say that they need to beat themselves up for their past, I believe forgiving oneself is crucial to moving forward. But a disease? Especially to the degree that Perry clung on to? Come on, get real.

[@dreamclaw00]

Thank fuck you were there, you're obviously a qualified scientist with years of experience! ;)

[@HDSPKSRecords-gi1ob]

@@dreamclaw00 Oh, so we can be "qualified scientists" about psychology? Or we shouldn't venture well-thought out opinions or experiences. Perhaps you are a "qualified scientist", so you don't need to bring any useful arguments to the table apart from call to authority, and you get to gainsay everyone else?

[@dreamclaw00]

Science and peer reviewed research count for more than subjective opinion. Opinions are like arseholes; everyone has one, and they're usually backed up with with a lot of shit.

[@k9khodi363]

I feel that way about food - it calls to me all the time, but I can still make good choices overall. Something can be a disease AND be amenable to appropriate choices. For example, diabetes is a disease, but some diabetics still eat their way into more health issues and others do not. We see how well Perry's victim mentality worked for him.

[@JohnSmith-su3ze]

@@dreamclaw00 Science and peer reviewed research are completely corrupt. Shows how much you know sucker lol

[@johnhammink2716]

Went to al-anon once to deal with some family of origin issues. One person dominated the entire meeting, talking about himself. no one else got a word in edgewise. It occured to me that there were ex- and current addicts who make this into some kind of AA celebrity speaking tour; selfishly denying everyone but themselves the healing and exchange these meetings were intended for. with such a lack of consideration of others, no wonder that accountability is lost.

[@purpurina5663]

From my experience with an alcoholic (and user) former partner, they are primarily addicted to themselves. Me, my pain, my past, my experience, my feelings, me, me, me.

[@johnhammink2716]

Facts!

[@emobloom]

Lots of narcisissm in alcoholism

[@wintercomesearly]

No wonder Peter and his brother Christopher didn't get along. Peter has the vocabulary and the superior attitude, but nothing of the brilliance, wit and charm of his brother. And Matt Perry, despite being closer to the truth, was no match for Hitchens.

[@mikaelak90]

Very well said.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

Hitchens was factually correct but morally wrong (drugs shouldn't be illegal). Perry was 100 prefect factually and morally wrong (drug addicts are not victims of anything other than their own choices).

[@mikaelak90]

"Read something other than your book" Perry.

[@thehousespouse]

And everyone else listening to the conversation 🤣

[@vanguard4065]

go drink something other than alcohol. ass.

[@retard6477]

I was a drug addict and alcoholic for 2 decades, starting in my teens. You can quit anything if you possess the willpower and hold yourself accountable. Perry’s problem was he was rich and looking for all the worldly things to fill some personal void inside himself. He could have helped people less fortunate than himself and that would have provided happiness. He had every tool at his disposal and I’ve seen many people with nothing who finally said, “enough is enough, I’m done”.

[@ballockybill2277]

Very true . Nobody stops until they really want to stop . Until then you can do all the AA/NA counselling you want , but you wont quit until you really decide you want to for real .

[@retard6477]

@@LazerBrain11 I was a very immature kid and young adult. 100% my fault, I own all of it. I didn’t continue to use it as a crutch claiming it to be a disease. It was my choice to use. It was also my choice to quit. I never went to rehab or counseling or detox or have millions I could spend on therapists. I quit cold turkey. My point is that no matter how long you abuse drugs or alcohol, you have the power to stop when you want. Obviously I didn’t want to stop for a very long time and it’s the biggest regret in my life. I hope you never use and never have to make the decision to stop. You can laugh all you want, I am sober and happy. I hope you have a great life. 👍

[@basedsigmaspeaks]

Spiritual Malady for sure.

[@mike4619]

Your user name says it all.

[@chrisjeffrey7570]

He did help people, I think it’s the perry house? Long term non profit sober living program. You do make a point though, I was an alcoholic for 25 years, only thing that made me stop was financially I had to either quit or be homeless. I’d have continued to drink had I had an endless amount of money.

[@rexferalman4543]

Admits mental illness/drug/alcohol addiction. Continues on about how his thinking is clearer than Hitchens. 😂😂😂😂

[@serenityinside1]

👍👍

[@raymondlagasse7662]

Akin to a man with no legs. Can't walk. 😂

[@BIGjeffSanDiego]

“Alcoholism is a disease, it’s the only disease you can be yelled at for having!” - Mitch Hedberg

[@bobbyb5546]

Mitch was genius.

[@leahfrench3494]

Who tf does he think he is to refute experts based on his own experience? People NEED to call addiction a disease because it absolves them of responsibility and accountability for their choices.

[@marilyndresser2377]

Why do some people have self-control and not others? Is it the level of fear for consequences? And who establishes or models that level of fear? Is it parents or other early home structure.... are consequences and their reprisals set up in a healthy context or an unhealthy context?

[@burbuvs8911]

It's complicated all kind of adictions, for alcohol there are studies that even genetics have an important fact to be prone to become an alcoholic. Adictions has biological and psychological reasons.

[@lisastiles1408]

@@burbuvs8911 There are genetic predispositions for all sorts of maladaptive behaviors. Do we give passes to people more prone to violence, sociopathy, and psychopathy if they violate the rul…oh wait, yes we do. I suppose I have to make the question more specific. If someone with a genetic predisposition for violent, sociopathic, and/or psychopathic behavior attempts to torture and murder you, your spouse, your parent, or your child, will it bother you if the same person has tortured and killed people in the past, and each time gone through a special, compassionate court system favoring treatment over punishment, after which they were released after promising to never do it again? Where do we draw the line that allows some people to escape serious consequences for breaking laws that seriously harm others, based on their “genetics,” while others have to pay for the crimes they commit?

[@thehammer9599]

Addicted people are lazy and lack self-control.

[@fredmercury1314]

8:10 What's weird to me here, and what shows that Perry is simply not listening to Hitchens, is that they actually agree. Perry has just clearly stated that he's in control of the first drink, but after that he's not in control. Hitchens has stated that it would be best to stop people having that first drink (substitute whatever drug) by enforcing the law (by punishing people for use of illegal drugs). So at this point they're arguing over nothing but Perry's refusal to climb off his moralising pedestal.

[@MrsBridgette2012]

Hitchens is so full of himself and a bully. Have you watched any other of his debates? I can understand feeling strongly about your views, but Hitchens started by using the word Fantasy.

[@fredmercury1314]

@@MrsBridgette2012Because it is a fantasy.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@MrsBridgette2012 Perry was pretty full of himself and offensive too, the manners of both of them was totally lacking here, but Hitchens was right and Perry was wrong.

[@vinnyv949]

As an addict you don’t lose complete control over your ability to stop. It’s just incredibly difficult to do so and you will feel extreme mental anguish and physical withdrawal symptoms. But you can still overcome it as people have recovered from their addiction like myself.

[@burnsenvy]

Dude, you look pleasant and terrifying at the same time. Thats my problem tho. Cheers 🍻 mate.

[@mangore623]

I was an alcoholic, and then I chose not to be. It wasn’t a challenge. Would I have preferred having another drink? Absolutely, but I chose not to. It was the same when I smoked. In both instances you reach a point (everyone reaches that point) when you recognize the harm that is occurring, or you recognize that you no longer enjoy pursing alcohol/tobacco, and stop. Calling it a disease is such a flagrant misuse of the word, and a perfect way to avoid personal responsibility.

[@gcndc]

Suggesting that it is a choice is wrong. I was married to an alcoholic for 12 years. It was gradual and he ended up dying from drinking at 43. He had depression and found life very difficult and had some professional issues that increased his dependency. Some people cope with problems in unhealthy ways, not everyone can go for a fun when they are sad. It is a very complicated subject and I wouldn't call it a disease but there is definitely a mental health issue involved.

[@showmethescience2514]

I’m addicted to sugar but one day I’ll stop. Honestly!!!

[@noreencollins6647]

Me too......one day......just never today

[@glumberty1]

I guess that means you are allergic to sugar.

[@rohan7224]

Just stop.

[@valleysofneptune]

I have a skin disease, it’s called eczema, no amount of will power stops it being there. Will power ultimately is the cure for addiction, because you have to want to stop and the act itself is you taking something as opposed to not taking it. The issue with addiction is actually coping with the withdrawal from the drug….once you are over it, it’s will power that keeps you from taking it ever again.

[@Calidore1]

Will power means you are convinced. Drugs aren’t all bad, that’s why many people. Remain unconvinced

[@jillybe1873]

Will power is good and we need to give our children the confidence to develop it. But we can re-teach wholeness of character when people with problems have fallen. Then they will develop enough personal strength to take back control in their own life.

[@snakedogman]

So are you speaking from any experience of recovering from addiction or ....?

[@valleysofneptune]

@@snakedogmanyes, although I’m not publishing it on here. Addiction is not a disease, disease is incurable, addiction is not

[@valleysofneptune]

@@cthulhucrews6602 it can, but excess is a disease that has no cure, just mitigating symptoms through food and medication

[@Youknowwhoin2024]

This aged fabulously

[@maureeningleston1501]

I found myself getting angry at MP, thinking get a grip and take responsibility for your own choices, you choose to drink, and then I realised I'm a hypocrite.........I've been a smoker for 45 years and when anyone suggest to me to give it up I just about go for their jugular bcz I"m addicted to cigarettes.

[@wombatnumbat989]

Good for you to see and acknowledge your bias! I used to smoke for about 10 years and quit to get pregnant and it was easy. My husband's been smoking for 30 years and is totally addicted. I get it.

[@007nadineL]

Smoke a tiny bit of black hash with organic tobacco once a week and you'll be cured of cigarettes after awhile without even trying to quit

[@lisastiles1408]

But that’s the difference between you and MP. MP refuses to acknowledge ANY personal accountability, whatsoever. It took my mom several tries over 10 years to quit smoking. She first became addicted in the decades tobacco companies were lying about the addiction rate of nicotine, and adjusting formulas to deliberately get as many addicted customers as possible. Yet, today, even though we know nicotine is as addictive as heroin, there is no equivalence in compassion or treatment. We have comfy, cozy, personalized and dignity-preserving, detox and rehab facilities in beautiful places, for people that are either using an illegal substance, or abusing a legal substance, while we give cigarette smokers a GD patch. Plus we allow effective lung cancer treatment to lag behind other cancers because people assume everyone with lung cancer was just too lazy to quit. My mom quit 17 years before she developed lung cancer and died. Too young. And it was horrific. I try not to think too much about how much longer we might have had her with us if our society treated cigarette smokers as well as heroin addicts. My prayers for your comfort, peace, strength and healing.

[@maureeningleston1501]

@@lisastiles1408 So sorry for your loss Lisa, I think drug addicts definitely get more help and people tend to pity them, whereas people think smokers are just being arrogant for refusing to stop, I know in order for me to stop I would definitely need to have to want to stop to have any chance, unfortunately I'm not at that stage yet but, never say never.

[@pursue513]

Oh Martin I feel so much smarter when I watch your channel 👍✌🤠

[@Fatjack-jy8gs]

"He cannot argue seriously". Hitchens is always interesting to hear.

[@factsmatter8667]

Hitches is an arrogant ignoramus. His own brother was a alcoholic.

[@TwistedSister1234]

True, Matt Perry would not and could not argue seriously. I was frustrated for Peter Hitchens, having to converse with a puerile smart-arse.

[@trustydiamond]

Thank you for this detailed and unbiased analysis of what goes on in debate

[@rogertomlinson9496]

Many thanks for this new video upload 👍

[@ReneeWright69]

Matthew isn't educated enough on the topic, in spite of being an addict, to be any kind of match for Mr. Snobby Pants.

[@nataliamach7248]

Snobby pants or not, he not only holds the superiority in rhetoric but is also right.

[@blzebub2]

@@nataliamach7248 Definitely not. PH doesn't know what he is talking about.

[@aaronwatter]

I would actually say Perry is TOO educated on the topic; probably *because* of "addict" self-identity, rather than in spite of it. The problem is that his education is based on a backward, outdated and unscientific "Big Book" of AA/NA. The "successful" 12-steppers (that is, 8-20% of ALL who attempt it) generally believe they alone know the "one true way" to recover, because it worked for them. Meanwhile, a profound ignorance of evidence-based scientific ideas on drug use & addiction persists. Chauvinistic dogmatism is not necessarily inherent to abstinence-based programs, but it is reinforced by both popular culture and criminalization. But, I guess that's 1930's quasi-spiritual/metaphysical ideology for you!

[@clancydowrca]

As sad as it is about Matthew's demise he lost this discussion. The last question Hitchens presented was the one that finished Perry off. He responded with a sarcastic joke to deflect having to admit accountability. It is not a disease. You dont choose to have a disease.

[@alexasmall6855]

Love your channel! Thanks for great content. I’m learning so much. ;)

[@dh7139]

me too, love the decoder!!!!

[@macoooos9204]

Interesting conversation. Funny enough I think they are both right & would actually agree on many points if they actually spoke together in a friendly tone.

[@ursusmaritimus7159]

This would have been FAR more interesting with Christopher rather than Peter. But what's new! RIP Matthew.

[@scottb32a]

Christopher loved a drink !

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Christopher Hitchens I hope would be a bit smarter than Matthew Perry here and not make the ridiculous claims he did relating drug addiction to a allergic reaction, claiming he had no choice, for if he did frankly I think anyone could beat him in a debate. Perry was wrong.

[@snapmalloy5556]

Language analysis aside here, my son went through drug court and has been clean and sober for three years. He has no doubt that without thus system he would have continued. When it comes to addiction, Perry is speaking from experience. Hitchens is speaking from outside influences, prejudices, etc.

[@lisastiles1408]

A good system should allow for both compassion and accountability. However, I’m puzzled by this argument that, since Perry is an addict, HE holds the greater expertise. If there is a possibility you have cancer, do you want the people who do research, and those that test, diagnose, and treat you, to be doctors or cancer patients currently in remission?

[@snapmalloy5556]

@@lisastiles1408 In my son's case and something I'm sure Perry can perfectly relate to is the accountability that comes with drug court. Hitchens sees numbers and that is all he can see. Without drug court my son is sure he would have relapsed, even in prison. Perry understands the absolute physical and mental hold a drug like heroine has on a person. Being thrown in prison wouldn't offer the non stop accountability as in the counseling, the weekly drug test, the face time with the judge each week. It was an absolutely fantastic experience for my son. It literally turned his life around. Throw him in prison and he and I both agree the results would have been much different. Does it work for everybody? No, of course not. There so many factors that determine whether or not a person can stay clean.. Drug court offers an opportunity that prison never would.

[@nataliamach7248]

Accountability is an experience each one of us has, as is addiction. A lot of things count as addiction, including internet, tv and sugar. You do not need to take heroin to be able to say Perry is clearly talking out of his ass. People stop drinking, taking drugs and other detrimental habits all the time, but they need an impulse and that impulse is accountability, the realisation that something is in fact unprofitable by any standard and would lead to harmful things if continued. Compassion? Yes, absolutely, limitless, but after accountability, NOT BEFORE.

[@snapmalloy5556]

@@nataliamach7248 TV, sugar and the internet is an absolutely terrible comparison. It is so far removed from the physical effects of heroine that you lose the argument right off the bat

[@nataliamach7248]

@@snapmalloy5556 I would love to see objective evidence for sugar tv and internet having no physical effects or it's comparison to heroine.

[@OnlyGetOneLife]

Martin, congratulations on conditioning me .... I was so excited to see you’ve uploaded a new video! The content reinforced the conditioning!! Incredible, I could happily watch for hours!! As always, many thanks for sharing your skills and time!

[@Toddalotapodamus]

Love that you didn't take a side. Just a thorough analysis of the conversation. I'm guessing this is coming up in my recommended in light of Mathew's recent passing.

[@FerallHog]

Some people are addicted to food and eat themselves to death. It’s not a disease, it’s a lack of self control.

[@randorama1588]

As a huge fan of Matthew and Friends, and completely agree with the majority of comments here. Addiction is not a disease. Just to pick a famous example, think of MJ Fox and his life with Parkinsons. He had no choice. Anyone that continually CHOOSES to partake of a substance to the point where they are addicted is not a reasonable comparison. I might pity both, but it is NOT the same thing

[@gumbilicious1]

What a great analysis, I tend to pay attention to conversational patterns like this as well but nowhere on the level you broke this down. Unfortunately when discussing the form of the argument or conversation I find it almost always takes a back seat to the topic of the conversation itself. For example this comment section is almost exclusively about the topic of the discussion and not your breakdown. To me, you analysis was far more interesting than a retreading of a fairly tired concept, but the question of why did this discussion breakdown and what sequence of interactions contributed to it and resulted from it could make us all better communicators by showing us how bad we are at communicating

[@annedolan3050]

There is brain chemistry associated with addiction, whatever the addiction the pleasure centers of the brain change visibly on PET scan, this is a physiological response of the body not a conscious choice of the mind. If one can conclude that endocrine disorders can occur with minute chemical reactions in the body, why is it such a stretch to see that people with addiction are having physical reactions in their bodies that differ from non-addicts just like the metabolism of someone who is hypothyroid for example is very different from someone with normal thyroid function? Scientists have researched with mice where they give them stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain if they press a lever and these mice will press the lever over and over to their demise, I'm sure they didn't want to die but were consumed by a physiological response to a specific stimulus. It's chemistry and physiology. Everyone is different. Further, to just throw the book at people to be an example to others of what not to do is as archaic and primitive as public hangings. That didn't work either. Ijs.

[@nando9195]

Yes there is a physiological basis but the mind also changes the brains physiology so i can see why hidgens is insisting that we do have a choice. Also rats dont have the same cognition as we do. People know by example and by their own bodies that the drugs are killing them. They just might not care because of life circumstances.

[@amethystdawn9476]

@@nando9195 There are choices, sure, but are you willing to go through major surgery or chronic intractable pain without pain meds? Unfortunately, people don’t always know beforehand that they are prone to addiction.

[@chowderpilot3843]

Not sure who I agree with - but your breakdown of the semantic and rhetorical devices being used by both participants is fascinating. Subscribing!

[@abornleader2474]

Love perry, 💘

[@mags6665]

Hi Martin great upload really enjoyed it thankyou 😊

[@HumanimalChannel]

I miss Hitch The charming one.

[@billwright2811]

Its all about the mind. I used hypnotism to be rid of my addictions, not medicine.

[@oshead]

There are studies that show that the use of some psychedelics could be the way forward. The are not addictive and rather falsely have been classed as a dangerous drug by Nixon's administration for the last 50 years on the war on drugs.

[@AntifaareFascists-zv6xk]

He must have been allergic to cocaine too.

[@valhalliwell]

What makes you think that Peter H actually believes what he's presenting? He's just trying to "debate" the subject, the way he used to do at university. He wants to provoke as much of an incensed reaction as possible and I think he achieved that quite well.

[@davilathegreat]

He's written books on the subject. It's not a topic he just took up for the purpose of the show.

[@valhalliwell]

@@davilathegreat Nevertheless I still think that his goal is to stimulate outrage - otherwise it would be a pretty boring show.

[@blzebub2]

@@davilathegreat His books display breathtaking ignorance. Hitchens is a troll.

[@Kknightstar]

I got that impression as well

[@JosephB-tv7gf]

He can reason his case which, I think, he believes to be true. Both at the same time; nothing wrong in that.

[@acadianwanderer7352]

Perry was way over his head in this debate and he knew it that’s why his nonchalantly tried to be funny and be rude towards Hitchens.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Yeah Perry spoke out of pride, he was obviously totally wrong and contradicted himself continually.

[@markwildt5728]

Perry might have gotten a little too much in his feels, but understandably so. Hithcens is utterly wrong on almost every aspect of this discussion, and as someone who has lived it and gone through it, not to mention the condescending jabs and remarks from Hitchens, I don't really blame Perry for being as snarky as he was. There was absolutely no fruitful discusison to be had, and if you watch other debates or interviews of Hitchens discussing this same topic, they ALL tend to end the same way, because he's an absolute pseudo intellectual clown just like his brother, and has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

@@markwildt5728 Perry is the one who is wrong here, Perry is claiming drug addiction is a allergy and trying to avoid responsibility for a drug abuse HE chose to do which ultimately killed him. Of cause Perry is to blame, who else can you blame for Perry choosing to do drugs? Peter Hitchens? Are you kidding me? You are talking nonsense. Do you have any evidence or logic other than your own "too much feels" to back up your claims here? Based on what do you conclude that Perry is right and Hitchens wrong about the facts here? That Hitchens is condescending and Perry rude is totally besides the point, these are character flaws not the argument themselves.

[@acadianwanderer7352]

@@markwildt5728I thought for a short moment, while reading your comment, you were describing Chomsky lol. Silly me. You must be one of his followers trying to emulate his legendary non stop anti ‘common sense’ thoughts I suspect though, we’ll done mate…😎

[@justatexasgirl5583]

Sarcasm loses arguments even if you are right!

[@tommyapples8490]

Ahh .I like that. ! I instantly stop talking to anyone when they use sarcasm. It doesn't matter to me how much I believe in something, or if I'm debating my beliefs, if the persons ego overrides the conversation and they get a weird defensive stance by using sarcasm, they aren't arguing their points, they are arguing against you!

[@justatexasgirl5583]

@@tommyapples8490 Arguing just to argue. Because what happens is when a person can’t get the upper hand they start the low blows and that can do terrible things to your mind and heart AND THEY LOVE IT! Best just stop the conversation and take your leave.

[@tommyapples8490]

@@justatexasgirl5583 eggsackly!😉

[@willbrown7364]

I'm sure if Perry managed to overcome his addictions he would've chalked it up to strength of character and use of free will. We'll never know of course

[@hi.moriarty]

Tit for Tat. What an incredible loss. Both of them were in a place of opportunity to learn something new and they remained locked in their positions - that made it become a personal objection to defend in their Own characters and personalities, instead of being secure in their thoughts and not requiring the validation of the other person in order for their beliefs to be true. Thank you, Martin. I appreciate the mind exercise!

[@mathieuvanleeuwen7127]

Time pressure and camera's ....

[@censedfear]

​@@mathieuvanleeuwen7127Well it was Hitchen's remark that addiction was fantasy which agitated Perry.

[@mazklassa9338]

I've never discovered this particular analysis on how the structure of arguments works, its amazing.

[@craftykev]

Always fun to watch the fantasy of addiction.

[@newfieponygal1023]

Another very interesting video. Thank you , Mr Decoder!

[@kyleolin3566]

Addiction is a very complex matter and is multifactorial. Most often, I would say it is a coping mechanism. Drugs, and behaviours are used as ways to dissociate, or numb ourselves from traumas we have experienced throughout our lives. Hitchens makes a valid point that lax drug laws incentivize drug addiction. Cuba does not have a drug problem. They have very strict drug laws. They are also an authoritarian state, so there is that. Matthew makes a valid point that once an addict starts, they cannot stop. Drugs take over the survival mechanisms in our brain and, to a late stage addict, can become more important than eating or drinking water. Here in British Columbia, Canada, drugs were decriminalized and we have seen many negative impacts. We tried to do what Portugal did, but without giving addicts the support they needed, only supplies and substances and a quick kick out the door. I think decriminalization could work, with lower thresholds of what users can carry, harsher penalties for sellers, and encouragement and support for users.

[@deepzepp4176]

Thats a very fair take, and I think you're onto something with it being a coping mechanism. I was drinking a lot of alcohol, smoking a lot of cigarettes and consuming a ton of caffeine. I knew I needed to quit, or at least cut down on these habits as they were having a detrimental affect on my life. But at the time I thought I couldn't quit and continued to consume these things. Then two years ago I was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumour, I stopped drinking alcohol almost immediately, and then caffeine shortly afterwards. I - stupidly - continued to smoke, but after suffering a seizure while smoking, I then quit smoking as well. I eventually had surgery and I'm currently still dealing with the cancer, but I'm feeling very well in myself. I'm going for walks, exercising, eating and drinking healthy, and generally feeling okay, apart from the cancer. Obviously I don't have a choice as to whether I want to quit the cancer, or cut down on cancer, or seek help to stop my cancer suffering, etc. And millions of others don't have that choice either. And looking back on it now, clearly it wasn't the cigarettes or the alcohol. It was my mental state. I was using those things to cope with my depression and anxiety. Once I dealt with my mental problems, I felt no need to go back to those things that were ruining my life. So I certainly understand that when you are in that state, It's incredibly hard to see a way out, but at the same time, I'm not sure telling someone they are now a lifelong addict with a "disease" that they can do nothing about, is a sensible decision. Those thing helped me cope, but I would never say I had a "disease". Ironically, It was likely the tumour that was making me depressed which turned me to drink. So I unknowingly was drinking because I had a disease. lol

[@kyleolin3566]

@@deepzepp4176 Thanks for sharing your story. It is sometimes through great adversity we find purpose. One of my favourite philosophers, Viktor Frankl, stated “If you have a why, you can overcome any how”. I believe he actually got the saying from Friedrich Nietzsche. Anyways, Frankl was a survivor of the Holocaust and was in a concentration camp. When the prisoners worked they got either enough food to get by for another day, or a pack of cigarettes. If a person had a reason to live, purpose, or a why, they would take the soup. If they did not, they would take the cigarettes and meet their end. Now that you have found your why, I hope you overcome your cancer, or at least break even. (I stole that one from Norm Macdonald). Good luck friend. I have seen what cancer can do to people and I have seen what people can do to cancer.

[@deepzepp4176]

@@kyleolin3566 Torally agree. And I appreciate your comments. That’s very kind. Good luck to you also. 👍🏻

[@23nothinking]

No way! Someone in the comments with a brain who isn't just commenting to pass judgment to make themselves feel more superior.. its a miracle

[@jperickson7737]

This was a fascinating analysis of debate. Thank you!

[@coalrivers9998]

Thanks for speaking up Mathew.

[@happyhali]

I agree with both to an extent

[@serenityinside1]

Me too - Mathew didn’t express himself well enough. Got too personal, too angry and sensitive. Being “ sarcastic American “ didn’t help one bit against Hitchens!

[@ronnepereny9795]

I think the first problem is labeling alcohol addiction as a disease. It gives the alcoholic a reason to believe it is not his fault. It clearly is a choice to drink and some clearly do not have the will power to stop, however it is a weakness in their will power that causes that.

[@capecodder04]

I've been sober since August 18th, 2010 and I've been through the 12 Steps and going to meetings since 2008. I never liked the idea that alcoholism is a disease either but I have no problem with considering it an addiction described as a mental obsession or physical compulsion as it says in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am a Catholic and I follow Catholic Priests who perform exorcists and teach on spiritual warfare and one of their names is Father Chad Ripperger and he has described all addictions and all sin as demonic. Satan actually has Generals in his army that control different aspects of sin and our society. Father Ripperger has said that there are Generational Spirits, Generational Curses and Sins of the Father etc that come into a family through the parents (usually the father) and alcoholism and drug abuse is one of those spirits. Coincidentally, or not, alcohol used to be called "Spirits". People can say that alcoholism or drug abuse or addictions in general are in the genes or it's hereditary but it boils down to demonic spirits and sin; just like original sin from Adam and Eve which we were all born into and with original sin which is passed down through every generation. I know that most people reading this will not read will not believe this and that's okay but this is what I believe and I believe it because these Catholic Priests are dealing with demons directly, casting them out and learning how they operate and are now teaching people who will listen how the demonic world works and how they influence us in our lives and it makes sense to me to listen to them based on their knowledge and experience first hand with dealing with demons. Just like if someone was going to build a house they would consult with a builder for someone who knows how to build a house or hire a builder. An exorcist Priest has credibility to me when talking about how demons act in our lives and what we should do to avoid demonic influence and if they give advice on this subject I'm going to take their advice seriously and listen to them.

[@JohnSmith-su3ze]

Perry doesn't make ONE scientific statement in the entire debate. 100% emotion.

[@minabrite]

Your analysis is illuminating! 🙂👍

[@RoddHarding]

It is true that the addict makes a choice to stop. The struggle, the fight is not something anyone is equipped for. Its very difficult to fight your own poisoned mind but its possible.

[@StanslaMichael]

They have to be forced to face their addictions first, after that then it's up to them to want to stop. I agree it's incredibly hard to fight the mind, considering we lie to ourselves almost daily sometimes without even knowing it. Finding the strength to be true to yourself is extremally hard for some people, but it's the first step, to stop lying to yourself and facing reality of the dangers of what your addictions are causing. We are more than capable of doing it. The hardest part is going back into society. They are both wrong in this argument. Peter thinks it's just a figment on one's imagination and that it can easily be turned off, but there are other factors that he doesn't equate for such as behavior's from childhood that end up being triggers for addictions, emotional damage, sexual abuse. Mathew thinks it's got to do with his body, which makes no sense. Your body doesn't just get up and go for a drink, you have to convince it to. Mathew was still lying to himself, pretty sure he relapsed a few more times.

[@zenscout]

"fantasy of addiction"...I'd have asked what's his $kin in the game. Prisons are Big Busine$$

[@silliussodus9364]

Do you think Peter owns a prison?

[@stephenmurray2851]

@@silliussodus9364 lol these people are clowns mate

[@oshead]

Peter's main point was one must stop people becoming an addict in the first place. You missed the whole point of the argument.

[@MsTammi125]

I hope you make more videos!! More more!!! 😄👏

[@ajconstantine3593]

Martin, can you please recommend your favorite book on this subject of conversation protocols? I’m genuinely interested-very. Thank you! 🙏

[@sosalpha]

Immense levity... well said

[@donnagarside8520]

Thank you Matthew Perry. The other guy's arrogance is preventing him from learning something from you.

[@tealkenobi9785]

Uhhhh did we watch the same video? Perry acts like an asshole.

[@TS-pk6ul]

You tell somebody that has cancer, heart disease or diabetes that it's a choice & I'm pretty sure you would get the same response as Perry

[@nicholascernatescu6685]

@@TS-pk6ulif it was caused by your choices, of course it’s a result of your actions, what kind of braindead argument is this?

[@thehammer9599]

The same people who claim alcoholism is a disease want us to believe you can be fat and fit and quarantining the healthy works.

[@gargleblasta]

... and vice versa

[@Sierralara]

I've never bought into this "Disease" BS. I completely agree with Hichens in this discussion. These are choices that people make. Since this "Disease" garbage has been pushed and people have been getting less criminal incarcerations for drug offenses, the people that actually make the better choices suffer more with having to deal with these people continuously blaming their poor choices on having this phantom "Disease." If the consequences were more severe in the beginning, everyone would be much better off. Seems simple to me, a child will only stick his/her finger in the socket for the first time and after that shock, they understand to not do it again!

[@doncarlodivargas5497]

Me, as many others, struggled to quit smoking, did i suffer from a disease? And when i managed to stop smoking, i healed myself? Or am i still suffering from the disease? And, how do a discussion about if it is a disease help people trying to stop smoking?

[@lindagerber2951]

Why do I find Hitchens so immediately annoying? Yeesh..

[@Bumbledora]

Because he is annoying and extremely arrogant

[@AviViljoen]

Because he is not afraid of straight talk.

[@Scotty-P]

I'm thoroughly sick of this drug use bullsh*t anyway. There's no secret what they do to people, and hasn't been for quite some time. I'm sick of people doing them and then all pretending that they're "victims" or "sick", or something.

[@martinliehs2513]

We seem to be living in a victim culture. It's so far gone that people believe that they were born in the wrong body, wrong skin colour, etc.

[@acerrubrum5749]

Alex O'Connor had Peter Hitchens on for an interview, (Oct. 2023) Mr. Hitchens's stopped after 40 min. and can then be heard off camera complaining bitterly for 15 minutes. Cosmic Skeptic Blog and KZbin channel. Quite extraordinary.🎉

[@NickCager]

People do stop their addictions. It can be done. To say you CAN'T I think is incorrect, it's just incredibly difficult.