Ancient Greek Philosophy: Religion & Nature | ft. Professor Miro from Brazil

[@abbasalchemist]

This is an excellent discussion. Science and religion were not separated, as we can see in ancient physiologists like Empedokles. Similarly, the issue we face is the separation of the internal to the external, the soul to its environment. This also is a false dichotomy. We need to recover (through a re-evaluation of phenomenology), the realization that Homer expands on, the archaic sense of atmosphere and embeddedness of feelings, emotions, and atmospheres as touching the being synonymous with the person's felt-body.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Thank you for saying that! Yes, I believe that phenomenology is the invaluable tool that can point the mind away from the prison of scientism. Have you watched our episode on Heraclitus and Heidegger?

[@abbasalchemist]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited Not yet. But I will! Glory to the Gods!

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Going Deep on Heidegger, Heraclitus, and the Philosophy of Nature kzbin.info/www/bejne/apOyi4Wlh7aHiMk

[@achillebrlnds]

Bless you for the great work you're doing, may the Gods always smile upon you.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Back at you! 🙏

[@Wyattinous]

I always love your intro! 1 and a half hour discussion from AGR is a great gift, your work is greatly appreciated. You deserve growth Michael, and I admire your efforts fleshing out such a colossaly heavy religious topics. I'll be paying attention, this man you speak with seems to know his stuff (I'm 20 mins in). I'll also take your quiz later. On a side note, since your having a discussion with this fellow from Brazil, I recommend checking out the Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa, who himself was (as much as I've gotten to read of him) Pagan in his personal spiritual life and introspection. There's even a letter he wrote to the Portuguese Pagan order regarding creating some written works for them, and him discussing own beliefs relative to theirs. Very complex man.

[@hedgiecc]

Great discussion, thought provoking and educational!

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@hedgiecc Thank you!

[@dharmawarrior111]

Great conversation.

[@johnl5316]

nice

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Thanks

[@ThanosAnim]

Γεια σου ρε Μιχάλη!

[@martinaakervik]

14:20 I don’t really understand the question? Did both agree upon that the Greek gods as a religion and the biblical roots got borne at the same time? Because that cannot be correct information. The Greek alphabet came along with Homer’s text. That was what was given birth to around the 8th century bc. Not the Greek gods and mythology. It is well accepted Greek-mythology (and traditions) was at least 1000 years old when the first text of biblical traditions has roots in history.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

It was roughly during the 8th century BC that both Greek and Jewish cultures "crystalised." They became recognisably Greek (and Jewish respectively) and not merely "one more" Indo-European or "one more" Semitic.

[@martinaakervik]

@ it’s possible I misunderstand… but.. what do you mean by “one more” when it already exists for 1000 years? Is it something I miss here? I don’t think that is a good description. It confuses more with some kind of simplification. Losing nuance. I personally would say 1000 years in human history isn’t even nuance… but rather a radical difference. Homer sang verse that was at least 4-500 years old. And scholars talk about some of the mythical roots of the oral tradition referring to some of these myths …stretching likely as far way back as to Minoan and Mycenaean singers. That said cultural changes in artists style, written language and poetry changed around 8th century bc. Especially because we Europeans got our first good writing language in the Greek alphabet.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@ What I mean is that Greek culture is often seen under the umbrella of "Indo-Europeanism." It's seen like "one more instance" of Indo-European cultures. Zeus being another name for Odin or Thor, or even Indra god of thunder. I had an interview with an expert in that domain who kept using the word "cognate" (co-natare, i.e. "born together") when talking about the Greek gods in combination with Hindu gods. Ex. Zeus, the "cognate" of Indra etc. That's what I mean by "one more" Indo-European culture. It's the view that what is essential in ancient Greece is a function of what's essential in Indo-European cultures What I'm saying on the other hand is that there was something unique in Greek culture, and which "crystalised" during the 8th century, and for which the Indo-European culture was but One of the two elements.

[@martinaakervik]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited Ok, but to me the whole question and answer came out as if the polytheistic and monotheistic worshiping came about the same time. I will ague that is pretty essential to differ and clarify it is evidence of the opposite. (Odin and Thor was much later, I belive like 12-1300 years later, after Christianity had converted the Roman Empire btw.) ...wasn't this at the time of the Urnfield culture and such? ...and I don't think we know much about their religion other than they cremating the deceased and probably worshiped several gods.) I will agree that it was polytheistic culture in Indo-European societies, likely with at least some similar myths. Just as it's believed Zeus (di-we or di-wo in Mycenaean Linear B tablets 13th BC. As Oliver Dickinson mentions in The Aegean Bronze Age, 1994)

[@daniellogan-scott5968]

They are referring to what is often called The Axial Revolution where in a relatively a short amount of time (8th to 3rd century BC) we see major philosophic changes throughout the world, including the lives of Zoroaster, the Buddha, Confucius, and Socrates. During this time, Judaism shifted from being henotheistic to monotheistic and setting doctrine in the form of the Torah and early Old Testament.

[@nutin321]

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Great interview. As an aside, I think that the infusion of a written language is the singularity event that crystalized the first millennium BC into a spiritual awakening. It was technology that fixed spirituality and collapsed the spiritual probability function. As for psychedelics, I think that you underestimate the long-term effects. Revelations do change you. It is not a pendulum, that you swing in and out of. You experience something and then it lingers and changes you. Cheers.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Interesting observation, yet, there is a problem ... In the Homeric epics there is no mention of reading or writing whatsoever. The Greek heroes of Troy were essentially ... illiterate. This of course does not have to apply to Homer the man. Yet, even during his days - when writing must have been reasonably accessible - the art form of epic poetry was an "oral" one. Homer must have memorised all of his poems using mnemonic devices. For more on this you could read about the work of Milman Parry and his theories en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral-formulaic_composition

[@nutin321]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited Thank you for responding. Let me clarify my point. During the archaic/dark age, the homeric epics were exclusively oral. Once they were documented, they "froze" in time. Had writing not come around in the 8th century, but maybe the 1st century BC, perhaps the prevalent poetry may have about the Persian wars or the Peloponnesian conflict or Alexander's exploits and Homer's epics may have faded from memory. Had Hebrew script been invented in the 1st century AD, perhaps the Jewish torah would center around apocalyptic messiah cults or the Maccabees and Yahweh destroying the world in a flood would be all but forgotten. Writing freezes history. Whatever is currently spiritually important and documented becomes the "big thing", never forgotten and only added to. What I am saying is the spiritual awakening is whenever the lights are turned on and we can never forget. There is always something spiritually important, there is no spiritual big bang event just when it is documented and fetishized. Then that fetish becomes the "spiritual explosion" through writing, propagation and institutionalization.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

​@ I see what you are saying. It appears obvious to me now, yet, it had not occurred to me before you mentioned it! It's very plausible, but I am tempted to offer an alternative explanation, one that is less "materialist" (philosophically) and more "idealist." You see, we are following the works of Cornelius Castoriadis, for whom we made a documentary that I believe is worth watching kzbin.info/www/bejne/paK5l2qblJl6qMksi=NBUP8jDGhMtDDFva What he believed, and I am for one convinced, is that cultures do not really develop, they are born, a little bit like the universe did out of a "big bang." That means that .. we don't really have evidence of the Greeks believing in 6 gods, then 8, then 10, and finally 12. No! The first time that we get evidence of a culture that is distinctly Greek, like in the epics of Homer's, we have all 12 gods + Dionysus fully formed, with all their attributes and all their relationships. With a concept of geography (Iliad 2nd rhapsody) that documents all the city-states that would dominate the Greek mainland, language and customs that would change very little for the next millennia! It is tempting to say that the invention of writing "froze" this culture at a specific moment in time, but even if that is true to a certain extent, think of how little time it took those early Greeks to go from semi-nomadic Indo-European culture in the 10th century, to a distinctly Greek culture with a sense of the Tragic, that for Cornelius (and us) forms the backbone of Greek culture. Something happened for these ideas to "crystallize" and in fact, this sudden appearance seems to me the norm rather than the exception in history. Christianity seems to have formed as suddenly. If Jesus died in the year 33 AD having convinced 12 people of his Divinity, by the time that Nero burned Rome in the 60s AD there was a discrete group of Romans called "Christians" which must have numbered in the 10s of thousands, if they were to reach Rome from Judea in waves of migration and preaching, with fully formed ideas about the afterlife and the Resurrection and the end-of-days. Things - by the way - that are scarcely found in Jesus' teachings. It's as if whoever He was, He acted as a catalyst for ideas that were already there. There is something mysterious in Ideas, something worth investigating.

[@nutin321]

First of all, I want to thank you for everything you put into your project. It is great fun and infinitely interesting. There are indeed iterations of Greek spirituality that we have indirect evidence of. The IE wave brought in nature, gods like Zeus, and crashed into the indigenous Greek agricultural gods like Demeter. So there were iterations of the Olympic pantheon prior to the establishment of the 12. In fact, we have a documented iteration of when the God Dionysis assumed his place and displaced one of the gods. So Greece was always rich and spiritual awareness of many different varieties until the alphabet was developed and this version was documented. I love that you pointed out the differences in Christ of the New Testament and Christ of the Christian Church. Christianity is entirely a Greek invention. It is Neoplatonism through a Hebrew lens. In fact, during the first three centuries of Christianity, there was a competing theology that declared that the god of the old Testament was the devil, and the god of Jesus was the true God and they were completely different. There is a reason why the cathedral of Constantinople was called Agia Sophia. I recommend the excellent work done by doctor sledge in his KZbin series called the Demiurge on his esoterica channel. Φίλε σ’ ευχαριστώ πάλι και τώρα θα πάω να δω το KZbin video. Θέλω να σε καταλάβω καλύτερα Πριν γράψω τίποτα άλλο. Χαιρετίσματα από την Αμερική!

[@daniellogan-scott5968]

I think underlying this discussion is the question, "Can the divine be known?" The Abrahamic religions answer "yes" and this results in the authoritarian approach to religion. Pagans believed the divines to be unknowable which allowed for mystery, discovery, and syncretism.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

What an excellent comment. I think you are spot on. Yet, my own personal quest is not in the “knowing” but experiencing.

[@daniellogan-scott5968]

@ I think that is part of it. If we let the Divines "just be" without trying to put them in a box, then that opens the door to the experiencing because we have accepted the futility of knowing.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@ In fact what you are saying reminds me of a moment in Plato's Republic. When I re-read this work recently, I stopped on my tracks about 4/5 where Socrates says something in relation to the "being of knowledge" [Rep. Book IX 585c]. It's this fascinating idea that knowledge has a "being" which might be identical to the being of whatever is investigated. Knowing God and experiencing Him might be the same after all ..

[@jannieeleftheriou2992]

Κατ´αρχήν θα πρέπει να ευχαριστήσω το κανάλι σου και την ομάδα που σε βοηθάει ξεκίνησες κάτι πολύ όμορφο πιστεύω αλλά θα πρέπει να αποδειχθεί στην πράξη Γιατί πρέπει να αποδειχτεί στην πράξη; Γιατί ξεφύγαμε τόσο πολύ από την γραμμή που είχαν βάλει οι πρώτοι θεοί πατέρες που με τους καινούργιους επέρχεται τρίτος παγκόσμιος πυρηνικός πόλεμος = καταστροφή της γης μα και αυτό να μην γίνει η τέταρτη διάσταση θα μας καταστρέψει όλους γενικώς. Να βάλω τα πράγματα με την σειρά Μετά από δύο χιλιάδες χρόνια είναι ο κόσμος ευχαριστημένος-ευτυχισμένους;να πω 10-20% του συνόλου πολύ θα είναι και ξέρετε γιατί; Γιατί πέρασαν την γραμμή των αληθινών αρχηγών στρατηγών βασιλιάδων παπάδων δεσποτάτων ΙΕΡΟΦΑΝΤΗΔΩΝ που μπορεί να είχαν δύναμη και φυσικά πλούτη αλλά ήταν στην πρώτη γραμμή πάντα σε πόλεμο η ειρήνη πάντα κοντά στον λαό ΤΟΥΣ κοντά στους στρατιώτες ΤΟΥΣ. ΣΗΜΕΡΑ που είναι όλοι αυτοί; Και δεν λέω μόνο Μητσοτάκης Βορίδης και σια λεω για όλους τους σούπερ πλούσιους που είναι κρυμμένοι σαν τους αρουραίος και λένε στου μικρότερους golden boys ti και πως να το κάνουμε να αυξήσουν τα πλούτη την επιρροή και την δύναμη και άσε τους (( εθελοντικά)) δουλους να βογγάνε και ειδικά άσε την μάννα να βογγάει για τα παιδάκια της τον πατέρα να δουλεύει 12ωρο για να προλάβει να πληρώσει την τράπεζα το δάνειο και τα καθημερινά έξοδα. Πρέπει όλο το team να καθίσει πρώτα και να βρει περίπου πότε πέρασαν την γραμμή ποιοί την πέρασαν και σήμερα πόσοι πολύ μεγάλοι υπάρχουν και να τους κατεβάσουν στα μέτρα εκείνων των τότε αρχηγών. Μπορεί να το κάνει αυτό ο μεγάλος ελον μασκ; Τότε να ανοίξει αυτό το πρότζεκτ που ανοίξατε εσείς όχι μονάχα με έλληνες που οι πιο πολλοί αχρηστεύτηκαν αλλά ανθρώπους από όλο τον κόσμο με αρχαία ελληνική φιλοσοφική αλλά και πρακτική καρδιά αλλά και ολιγαρκείς αδιάφθοροι και πίστη στο όραμα και τότε θα δούμε αν οι αρχαίοι Έλληνες ήταν χαρούμενοι ευτυχισμένοι αλλά και μεγαλοπρεπείς καλλιτέχνες που τα έδιναν απλόχερα σε όλο τον κόσμο τούτης της γης. ΤΟ ΧΡΩΣΤΑΤΕ. σας περιμένουμε.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Κοίταξε, ζούμε την εποχή της μεγαλύτερης μεταφοράς πλούτου από την μεσαία προς την υπερπλούσια ανώτερη τάξη. Αυτό δεν είναι άποψη, αλλά γεγονός, στατιστικά αποδείξιμο. Και αυτό συνέβη απότομα, τα τελευταία 4 - 5 χρόνια. Αυτή είναι και η βασική μεταβολή που κατά ένα τρόπο εξηγεί όλες τις άλλες. Ο Ελον Μασκ προφανώς και δεν ενδιαφέρεται γι αυτό, μιας και ζει από αυτό. Τώρα, αυτό που βλέπω - με έκπληξη πρέπει να πω - είναι ότι ο κόσμος δεν φαίνεται να το πολυσυζηταει. Θυμάμαι τη δεκαετία της οικονομικής κρίσης, που κάθε δεύτερη κουβέντα ήταν για το χρέος και την οικονομική δυσχέρεια. Κουραστικό και αυτό, σίγουρα, αλλά αντικατόπτριζε μια πραγματικότητα. Τώρα, δεν θυμάμαι πια ήταν η τελευταία φορά που κάποιος αναφέρθηκε στο χρέος, αλλά πάει καιρός. Η κατανάλωση είναι στα ύψη, ή τουλάχιστον έτσι φαίνεται από μια βόλτα στην Αθήνα, και οι Tesla έχουν γίνει όπως τα Fiat Punto της εποχής. Εν ολίγης, κάτι γίνεται που κι εγώ δεν το καταλαβαίνω καλά, οπότε και δεν έχω απάντηση στο σχόλιο σου.

[@Cosmic_Virtue]

26:40 Εντελώς φιλικά, δεν μας ενδιαφέρει τι πιστεύεις αλλά τι συνέβη ιστορικά. Ο ιστορικός Κωνσταντίνος Σάθας στον 6ο και 7ο τόμο της Μεσαιωνικής Βιβλιοθήκης μας δίνει όλα τα ιστορικά στοιχεία της υπογειοποίησης της ελληνικής θρησκείας. Ο Σάθας δεν ήταν κανένας τυχαίος ιστορικός, πήγαινε και διάβαζε οικογενειακά αρχεία Ελλήνων σε όλη την Μεσόγειο και αυτό που κατέγραψε ήταν συγκινητικό. Επίσης υπάρχουν πολλοί ακόμα ιστορικοί που με τις έρευνες τους απέδειξαν αυτό που ο μέσος νεοέλληνας αρνείται να κοιτάξει στα μάτια. Άν θέλεις μπορώ ευχαρίστως να σου στείλω πηγές. Κατά τ΄άλλα ακόμα ένα πολύ καλό και πολύ ενδιαφέρον βίντεο. Να είσαι καλά.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Ευχαριστώ, αν και πικρόγλυκο το κομπλιμέντο. Στείλε μας πηγές, ευχαρίστως να τις κοιτάξουμε. Αλλά για να καταλάβω. Υποστηρίζεις ότι υπάρχει σήμερα κάποιος που να διδάχτηκε από κάποιον που διδάχτηκε από κάποιον που διδάχτηκε … βάλε 25 αιώνες … από κάποιον που διδάχτηκε από τον Πυθαγόρα;;;

[@Marion10610]

👏👏👏✨🥰✨🇧🇷✨

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@Marion10610 👍🙏💪

[@KyriakiTsakona]

When we talk seriously about ancient Greek religion, we focus on the Eleusinian Mysteries, which were based on Orphic Pythagorean Theology. If you don't go deeper there, you will touch the subject very superficially.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

I disagree. And before calling us superficial please watch our video on the “two religions” of Ancient Greece.

[@KyriakiTsakona]

I will, but you didnt understand. I gave you an advise. I didnt call you superficial..

[@SebastianLisic]

I love your work, but unfortunately I knew it was not going to go well when you called Zeus a thunder god. To understand the pagan gods you need to consider them aspects of existence. Zeus isn't a super hero with thunder powers, but he IS power. Not a metaphor, but that actual aspect of existence. The thing he is most known for is running around and copulating with near about everything. This is a key part of what power does, it spreads itself. When Philip II and later his son had the most powerful army in the world, they didn't just sit around with it, they spread themselves across the known world. The same goes for Rome, the Neo-Assyrians, Charlemagne, etc. In modern times the US uses its power to spread itself and influence countries across the globe. This also applies to corporations, office politics, the local home owner's association, the local neighborhood knitting circle, everything. Power left to its own devices will spread until it destroys itself by integrating too much (the successor states of Alexander, the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Charlemagne's empire being broken up into Germany and France, etc). Hence Zeus is married to a kind of purity goddess (with her own problems if taken exclusively). All the gods are aspects of existence (it would be too much to cover more of them here). The world is enchanted by them, but modernity is blinded to them. What they are is clear in the stories, but you need to jettison the modern outlook to see it and take them for what they are. That said, I love your work and eagerly await the next video.

[@seangavingregory4367]

Bronze age collapse in 800bc

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Well, the collapse happened around 4 centuries before that. But as the roaming bands moved around the Greek mainland, they formed - and lived - the stories later retold by the bards, where Homer was the unique genious of that genre.