Ancient Words, Modern Wars: The Nazi Misuse of Pericles | Ancient Greece Revisited

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Think you are a fan of this channel? Prove it and help us shape the future of AGR - Complete a 2-minute survey forms.gle/p8JWG7bccLFuwxaA8 🙏

[@ibrahimyusuf6811]

The only "problem" with this channel is that you should make videos more often. Love from Albania to Greek neighbors

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

We are trying… Greetings Neighboor

[@jupitersstring2823]

Agreed

[@piotrilja9211]

The smartest Greeks such as Socrates, Plato, Aristole and many more hated democracy. The closest to Platos utopia in The Republic of modern times would have been the NSDAP

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Don’t be so quick in your judgment. Plato may have had his reasons (see the death of Socrates), but Aristotle gives at least a “nod” to Democracy. Also, what you must remember is that Plato was not your typical Greek, and much of his thinking is almost “anti-Greek” as strange as it may sound. It’s typical of the West though, to produce thinkers that turn against their culture. “Woke culture” is a modern example.

[@jakobartmann4671]

Aristophanes too

[@geogeo2299]

"The smartest Greeks" Whoa were you present back then armed with a IQ-meter, measuring while the entire Greek population stood in line? 🤣🤣😂 And what were those "smartest Greeks" POLITICAL accomplishments IRL? Plato, for one, tried twice to bring his ideal republic into reality in Syracuses - but failed both times, miserably. Meanwhile, the democratic system IRL had given rise to the athenian marvel.

[@maddysinclair5232]

Really engaging and thought provoking video. Ancient Athens continues to fascinate so many today. I had seen the connection between the Third Reich and the militaristic, state run life of Sparta but had no idea the Nazi's used a speech from Pericles to justify their aims. The discussion on what the word "city " actually meant in Ancient Athens is very poignant. Thank you.

[@M3RLINDeHans]

We are very privileged to have the chance of learning with AGR videos. Greetings from Brazil/Portugal.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Thank you deeply

[@XXfea]

FANTASTIC! 🎉🎉🎉🎉 More please..

[@j.langer5949]

Pericles' speech was published in the Third Reich, that's true. Polis in it was translated as state and not as city or municipality, but in German this was the traditional mode of translation (so it wasn't misuse as the author of the video claims). This supposedly turned the speech into a defense of Nazism, which strikes me as a rather crazy claim, and that's because in Nazism the constructive category is not the state, but the nation. I suppose the reason Pericles was translated by National Socialists was more the ethos of heroism and self-sacrifice for the community (or general admiration for the Pericles era, see Mein Kampf).

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

The fact that translating City as “state” was customary means nothing. A objective translator would have changed this “linguistic habit” to demonstrate that Greek terms like City carried different meanings. As for the second claim, the Nation was CLAIMED to be the constructive category, but a nation is not defined racially and contains a plurality of people. The American nation for instance may have had an Anglo-Saxon base but included Germans, Irish, Italians etc. The German “nation” during the 3rd Reich was redefined as a racial category. Don’t be naive about translators, like everything else, their work is more political than first meets the eye.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

The fact that translating City as “state” was customary means nothing. A objective translator would have changed this “linguistic habit” to demonstrate that Greek terms like City carried different meanings. As for the second claim, the Nation was CLAIMED to be the constructive category, but a nation is not defined racially and contains a plurality of people. The American nation for instance may have had an Anglo-Saxon base but included Germans, Irish, Italians etc. The German “nation” during the 3rd Reich was redefined as a racial category. Don’t be naive about translators, like everything else, their work is more political than first meets the eye.

[@j.langer5949]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited You fixate on one word completely ignoring the merits of the argument and the context. As for the terms, you're not right on that either. A nation is etymologically a group of people who are united by a common ancestry (blood), language, history, etc (Herodotus' definition). So nation implied race/ethnicity long before the Third Reich. There is no re-categorization by the Germans here, as you are deceptively trying to imply.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@j.langer5949Does what you just wrote apply to the American Nation?

[@j.langer5949]

@@AncientGreeceRevisitedYou mean the U.S.? I don't consider the U.S. a nation, but a state. State and nation are two different concepts.

[@BamBoJam]

Love your channel! Just want to mention that your facial similarities to that of Aristotle is striking 😅

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Hahaha, I was always told that I "look like an ancient Greek." I guess it took me 40 years to do something about it.

[@Catonius]

Good video and the comments section is full of conviction from all sides.

[@MateuszRura]

Mixing historical context with modern, personal views is very weak move, propaganda style. No matter the opinion on someone and their politics, saying something like "She's German therefore..." is invalid as an argument. Adding Stalin seems involuntary ironic as it is exactly the same move as non-democratic, autoritarian leaning states are using to discredit their opponents.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Well, we have our reasons. First, because we **do** believe that Europe is sliding into totalitarianism. Second, because Ursula von der Leyen is the epitomy of this move. When she was greeted during her inaugural speech by no other than Klaus Schwab, she replied by saying that "following the presidential term of Donald Trump, we [I guess she meant Eurocrats] feared about the future of Democracy." Now, there is something deeply ironic about that, that unfortunately few even got! The fact that an UNELECTED bureaucrat "fears" for the future of Democracy because of her dislike towards a legally elected president, is beyond ridicule. Germany was indeed leading the EU for a very long time, and there were a few here in Greece that saw this as a kind of a "Fourth Reich." I understand there are many conspiracy theories about this, and about how Germany's leaders following the war orchistracted a takeover of Europe by economic means, and we must certanly guard against it. Yet, conspiracy theories are at least indicative of a general feeling within society, and in this case, there is trutly something to back this feeling up.

[@MateuszRura]

The thing is... it's irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the subject of the video which is misuse of ancient tradition by Nazi regime. But at the same time it's doing similar thing. The part I mentioned is put there just to show and justify your believes. That is why this video seems to me as propaganda piece masked as critique of propaganda. You can believe whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me however I would suggest starting "Bad Eurocrats" channel for that. Some vids on this channel are very fascinating and well done, but it looks as if this one is somewhat manipulative which is a shame.

[@michellem7290]

Excited for more great content! Always helps to hear some perspective especially with regards to American democracy. But I would like to add is that modern socialists in the US reject the Soviet system as just more autocratic feudalism in a different form, and what they advocate for (at least the ones I am aware of) is democracy in the workplace (without having to fight the often futile battle of creating a workers union). So in that sense I would argue they are actually trying to make America more democratic and like the Athenian ideal than it is now (especially when you consider our extensive problems with corruption)

[@merc-bt7il]

...not fully sure what you're trying to get at, your presentation is somewhat convoluted. 'Misuse' is inevitable when we're talking about a mass movement (in an age of mass movements) employing the rhetoric of a city state of few thousand citizens. In actuality, compared to Ancient Greece Nazis seem tame both in their racism and their capacity for violence, but if anyone can claim a spiritual affinity to the ancient world, that's 19thC to 1945 Germany, Nazis included.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

What we tried to convey is that we misunderstand the very civilization that we claim as our basis. Simple words like “the City” are hardly translatable, let alone deeper and more mystical ones like Hubris. It’s kind of like misunderstanding your parents, it matters. Now, the Greeks were no more or less racist than any other people in the Ancient World. Surely the Nazis would look “normal,” but that is only because they explicitly tried to copy parts of this world, which is why they also appeared so awkward. And yes, there was a spiritual affinity to the Greeks, but the Nazis represented its most primitive version, while Heidegger stood firmly on the other pole.

[@jakobartmann4671]

​@@AncientGreeceRevisitedHeidegger was in fact a Nazi. What is so Greek about a nihilist who says the meaning of life is death? Most German thinkers, artists, generals and politicians hated Nazism. Most of them were Christians who thought the Nazis were destroying German culture and tradition, which was far from resembling pagan Greece on the one hand or totalitarian statism on the other.

[@MrFredstt]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited Could you describe Heidegger in more detail? Or if you have made a video already I would like to watch it. Also, I always assumed the Nazis looked to Greece as most Western countries did but alas American schools aren't great at teaching about them in depth so I'm surprised to see how much they actually copied from Greece and the ancient world

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@MrFredstt Heidegger tried to get to a different starting place from the one that gave birth to modern civilisation. So, before the Enlightenment, essentially. His understanding of truth took the Greek etymology of "alethea" (αλήθεια) as "non-forgetting," or simply "remembering." This is much in line with Plato, who comes later, of course, but still retains the pre-modern understanding. I would recommend starting from this book: his lectures on Plato's Cave and the meaning of "Truth." That's what I did and it served me well.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@jakobartmann4671Heidegger was a complex figure, and his Nazism was not that of the uneducated "brute." What he craved for, I believe, is what an entire generation of Germans craved: an escape from the modern condition. It's no coincidence that Romanticism was actually born in Germany, and Isaiah Berlin thought that this was because Germany was a (relatively) "young nation." Ironically, and I say that because those two could not agree on much else, is that Leo Strauss **also** believe the same about why Germany rejected modernity. He has a great essay that he delivered as a lecture in 1940 in the US called "German Nihilism," where Nihilism was - at the time - another word for Nazism. There is explains that while "most Germans" where Catholics opposed to Nazi ideology - like you said. The young were different. And they considered themselves "sons a daughters of goddless men' to quote him directly. Think about this statement for a moment.

[@patrickkilroy6512]

When talking about the American founding fathers (and later Lincoln, in particular), it is only fair to say that their racism is something they actively struggled with. It was a belief at odds with their other more strongly held belief in equality and freedom. Racism seemed to them like a social reality that their utopian ideals struggled to overcome. Lincoln, despite what he is quoted as saying early in this video, advanced the most radical vision for racial equality in his era: the Emancipation Proclamation. Issued at the height of the Civil War with the Confederate South which wanted among other things to create an empire of race-based slavery. It is over the course of this war and the lead up to it that Lincoln’s beliefs about race evolved. He went from being somewhat apathetic about slavery, to being firmly against it as an institution but hesitant to declare full racial equality between blacks and whites, to making a statement on the equality of the races in the form of the proclamation that was radical enough to divide his own Republican Party in the aftermath of the war (the Reconstruction era). His Gettysburg address is often cited alongside Pericles’ funeral oration as a defining speech of western civilisation, at least from the American perspective. It too was made at a funeral for the war-dead, and boldly articulated the spirit of a civilisation, in which all men were created equal and born free.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Very well said, one can only paint in broad strokes during a 10 minute video. Having said that, Lincoln was a politician, and as such, he views evolved together with his political instincts that informed him of a changing attitude that he should take advantage of. He explicitly said that if a decision was called upon between Union and emancipation he would have Union while maintaining slavery.

[@patrickkilroy6512]

@ It is true! He was pragmatic. He did not always say / do what modern people think he ought to have from a purely idealistic perspective. As you say, he was a politician, and indeed he was only human. He needed to get things done, not just talk. Loved the video. I did not mean to be hypercritical, just wanted to share.

[@ΠαντελήςΧ]

Τhe fate of heroes is tradegy. Μου αρέσει, ακούγεται αληθινό.

[@keenanarthur8381]

When I think of hubris, I think of Creon in Antigone, who was more of a tyrant than a hero. There are plenty of racist and/or tyrannical politicians in nominal democracies also.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

But that is the most telling example of Hybris. Think of Hercules and how he died, and think whether he "deserved" this death in any way (most would say no). Think of Milo of Croton, think of the tyrant Polycrates (of Samos) and how **he** died. All those examples are telling about the fact that Hybris is much more than the "sin of pride" as many think. It's in the essence of human nature, or in the very fabric of the universe. Watch our episodes called "Limitless" for more...

[@keenanarthur8381]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited I'll check them out. The universe has its own ego, a power that self-identifies with it. The former neo-nazi and Greek translator David Myatt wrote a lot about hubris in his book The Numinous Way of Pathei-Mathos, mostly from the perspective of someone who has suffered due to prideful behavior

[@geogeo2299]

10:35 Democracy cannot be racist, but it also cannot be non-racist. That is because Democracy is a system of governance, therefore, almost indifferent to issues like the racial composition of the governed populace. So the question "Can Democeacy be racist?" is almost nonsensical and redundant. However, the historical, ancient democracies were always a matter of local, indigenous populations - therefore, it is safe to say that Democracy can NOT be cosmopolitan. On top of that, it is crucial to remember that the Athenian democracy, as well as the rest of the ancient world, had racialism (if not racism) EMBEDDED in their worldview. This is proven beyond any doubt by the famous passage in Herodotos 8.144.2, when the athenians themselves proudly declare "likeness in blood" to be a deciding factor in what is Greek and what isn't. I repeat, this is the 480BCE athenians answering as a democratic 'koinon' to emissaries from (the oligarchic) Sparta. Now, regarding the Nzs, we are not opposed to them because of racialism, but because their kind of racialism (i.e. Aryanism) was a fake one, a construct based on pseudo-scientific theories of Arthur deGobineau, that were in turn adopted by follow-ups like Madison Grant and turned into Nordicism proper.... In short : the Nzs bringing Nordicism forth, does not make racialism bad.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

> therefore, it is safe to say that Democracy can NOT be cosmopolitan. That is what we tried to say, even if it didn't get through as well ... ;-)

[@geogeo2299]

@@AncientGreeceRevisited In its essence, Democracy was a system that gave state authority and power to the common man, but at the price of rendering him absolutely responsible for the results & outcomes of his opinions & decisions. This absolute *responsibility* is Democracy's central requirement and request, in order to make a citizen sovereign and therefore, free. In Democracy having power was fused together with having skin in the game. That is why it was a system *by* the locals *for* the locals - i.e. the ones whose properties, families and LIVES were on the line, day in and day out. And that, is also why women and slaves did not enjoy equal political rights with fighting men. But that's another story. Thank you for your time.

[@vaggelisntaloukas2016]

I don't really agree... Statism is not a concept that belongs Either to Germans or Greeks. All people, Athenians, Germans, Spartans, Greeks, Bavarians,... have at some point to put the state above everything else, this is how societies prosper. You see, the most important speech of Pericles is not the funeral oration, but his last speech where he says to Athenians that they must stop asking for peace. In that speech, he clearly states, that the state is above all, and sacrifices must be made by all otherwise don't take pride in saying you are an Athenian.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

Unfortunately you have missed what we are saying entirely. The issue lies in the difference between State and Polis. The two are NOT the same and Pero les could have never, ever said that the “State” is supreme. He said the Polis, and you should rewatch our episode … :-)

[@vaggelisntaloukas2016]

There are Many English translations of peloponnesiar war that translate 'Polis' as 'State' (Jewett 's for example) Did al those historians/translators try to alter the meaning of the oration towards some political goal ? As long the ruling elite (there is always one, even in Ancient Athens) is open to all, no need to search for 'hidden' differences. They all mean their country. And to be more precise, country is the sum of the citizens who are of specific heritage and hence race. Athenians, if ever pressed, would all together as a group plant themselves into another place, they were the city. The sum of a VERY specific group of people. 6:44 "Statism is a German concept and it is not surprise that with a Germany at the head of the E.U. this union looks more and more "soviet" " My friend you totally lost it here..... not need to comment if you truly believe Germany decides what is going on in EU.. 6:56 "Some modern European favour the rule of unelected bureaucrats" Yeap, again lost it.... Pretty much in all EU countries citizens are fed up to their ruling class. Don't try to present is as if EU citizens like this unelected ruling class while Greeks like to have a 'say'. They all prefer the second 9:20 "Demos was different that the German concept of race..." yeap, again wrong... it was exactly the same! Actually, unless is was a common colony, it would be harder to become member of (any) Demos that member of the German Race. And it was under Pericles when it became even harder to become member of the Demos as he legislated that an Athenian was only one with Both Parents Athenias. 10:14 "the sense of belonging stopped being racial but based on common laws...." Brother..., I'm sure you have no clue... You have Rome in mind I guess, but definitely Greek Demos was FULLY RACIALLY based I could keep correcting and correcting but I will stop here.... To all those that will read our dialog I want to comment on two things: 1) Democracy usually works much better between people of same race/heritage and it was into that environment that is was born 2) 'Funeral' oration is not among the most important parts of Thucydides. You will realize that once you only after having read his whole work many times.

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

@@vaggelisntaloukas2016 To address your many points. > Did al those historians/translators try to alter the meaning of the oration towards some political goal ? Yes. That is what we are saying, that perhaps unknowingly, they projected modern categories back to ancient Greece,. The modern state is a product of the European Enlightenment and a radically different understanding of the "individual" which simply did not exist back in ancient Greece. > My friend you totally lost it here. The whole of the EU works FOR Germany simply because It's rules and regulations work in the benefit of Germany and not the countries of the European South, such as Greece who are indebted to German banks. > Yeap, again lost it.... Pretty much in all EU countries citizens are fed up to their ruling class. Please stop saying "lost" because it seems that you have not really paid any attention on what's been happening during this last decade! When Ursula von der Leyen said during her inauguration speech that "we are worried whether democracy itself might be permanently damaged in the last four years" in reference to the presidency of Donald Trump!! Do you understand how ridiculous this is?! An appointed bureaucrat, who lacks the charisma to have been elected as mayor of a Bavarian village, accused an elected president to have threatened Democracy!!! And how come no one in the media pointed to this parody? How come everyone "nodded along"? Well, because, as we said, "Some modern European favour the rule of unelected bureaucrats" > "Demos was different that the German concept of race..." You are missing a crutial element here: the family. The Polis was not founded by a racial group but a collection of families. The idea that you ancestors had to be citizens had nothing to do with the "colour of your skin" and unlike the Germans, the Greeks would not find kinship with foreigners because they both had blue eyes. The Jews in Germany just before WW2 were practically indistinguishable from other Germans, yet they became targeted because their ancestry was understood as so radically different it trumped any other sense of belonging. The Jews in an ancient Polis would have never been targeted had they lived in that Polis for so many generations. In short, for the Greeks, racial ancestry was NOT political. Familial history yes, race never. > Demos was FULLY RACIALLY based, Your problem is that you keep projecting modern categories back to ancient Greece. An Athenian would have as much trouble becoming a Spartan as a Thracian (presumably a different race) to become an Athenian. There is no mention ANYWHERE that "the Thracian is a barbarian by NATURE and therefore unable to become a citizen." Yet the same was said for Blacks even from some Founding Fathers. Do you see the difference? To conclude, I think you are one of those young men who, after being bombarded with Liberal principles for your entire life discovered a different view in thinkers of the "dissident Right", which is probably how you came to our channel. Don't fall for this trap of projecting your modern problems back to ancient Greece.

[@trench01]

Every nation misuse what the Ancient Greeks say from every nation every church even the Greek Orthodox church. Greeks made the republic and democracy but both misused. Clement of Alexandria's Stromateis "the Apostle Paul says: 'Take also the Greek Bibles, know the Sibyl, who declares one God and the future, and you will find our Lord Jesus Christ written more clearly.'" ""why should I linger over the barbarians, when I can adduce the Greeks...holy Apostle Paul says" All Ancient Greek words and letters have meaning. Greek has the oldest text in the world over 7000 years with one example is the dispilio table. Origins of the alphabet Example Θ Θεός (theos=God)=theology, theolatry, theosophy, etc, etc ΘΕΟΣ=GREEK GOD = What I see, feel, touch, smell, understand create] words: theater, theatrical, theamatic, theatrics, The problem with today's man is how to understand the difference between God and religion: (First we have to analyze the word "GOD" the word god comes from the ancient Greek word THAO (ΘΑΟ) that means I see and understand that I am the viewer of things and since I am an intelligent person I understand my environment, I study I learn we are wise and do so at will so the people themselves were called "THEOI=GODS" by the word ΘΑΟ created the words " θεατής viewer , θέατρο theater, θαυμάζω admire, θεωρώ sagest, etc.," they stood up and reviewed the facts and came to conclusion that no creature on earth is superior to them, for this they called them selves Θεοί (=Gods), the word «ΘΕΟΣ» (=God) meaning MAN because man is the only creature on earth to use logic and thorough knowledge can reach God (=logic), the word ΘΕΟΣ is a replacement of the ancient word «ΘΑΩ» meaning broad vision and mind, and did not resemble the God we know today. Long before the floods (cataclysm) they created the 12 Gods of Olympus (=heavens). As professor Fr Metallenos says "Christianity is a spiritual continuation of Hellenism, in almost everything... the sequence from Zeus to Jesus" "The so-called gods of Olympus were believed to be all children of the one and only god, Zeus, and constituted a kind of numerous Holy Family or eleven (+1) Saints." Which is why Apostle John & James father name was Zebedeos (Ζεβ+εδαίος from Zeus+Ideal)." One does not have a name praising the other religions God. "The first concerns the idiomatic expression "Son of God" which Jesus often attributes to himself. According to the author, the word Θεός is an anti-loan of the Latin word Deus, which comes from the Greek Δεὺς (gen. Διὸς) or Μεὺς. So when Jesus identifies himself as "Son of God", he does not mean essentially anything more than that he is "Son of Zeus". In the same way, the word "ἀμὴν", which Jesus uses many times to oppose his teaching to that of the Pharisees, is nothing more than a coded version of Ammon Zeus: "Because the Greeks of Egypt, with whom Christ was associated with when he lived in Egypt, they called Zeus Amen or Amen, the final conclusion emerges after certainty that the Amen of the Gospels is the name of Zeus in its Egyptian version"." Which is why professor of theology Luke Filis of the theological school of the university of Athens "the language of the Greek "New Testament" comes linguistically and ideologically from the venue of Greek thinking and intellect and it is composed in order to be a complete ideology, with the pure Greek way of wording" & how the Greek ideas and words of that Jesus used, got completely twisted throughout the years to represent something different and foreign to the original meaning and purpose."

[@stowlicters8362]

chrsitianity is not a continuation of White religions. also there was no global flood.

[@ibrahimyusuf6811]

Can you give any author or reference or book about monotheism in ancient greek religion/philosophy?

[@j.langer5949]

Why misuse? Is there a manual for proper "use"? And besides, the ancient pre-Socratic Greeks lived in a world that was built on the aestheticization of power. In this respect, NS Germans were very comparable. Dialectic at the expense of power, dominance and expansion, this is the mentality of the Greeks in decline, when they began to concentrate mainly on rhetoric, dialectical nonsense and reason (''I know that I know nothing'' type of nonsense). That doesn't impress anyone.

[@piotrilja9211]

@@j.langer5949 Is your source on the greeks Nietzsche? because it sounds like it. The teacher of Alexander The Great, The king of kings and a demigod was Aristotle who was taught by Plato. How can you say Greece was in decline because of its thriving for reason and science such as the dialectic when this literally birthed the greatest conqueror of all times??

[@j.langer5949]

@@piotrilja9211 I didn't get to the Greeks only through him, but you are bright, he influences my views. A wise man once said that philosophy is a sign of decline, because healthy generations do not need to be reminded of what is right - what is right they learn through blood and culture. Alexander was clearly more inspired by Homer than by Aristotle's philosophical reflections. I am not saying that Aristotle had no influence on him, but Alexander's actions speak for themselves. He was a lion and education wouldn't change that. Look at Seneca and Nero, how it turned out. Alexander was probably as much a "Platonist" as the conquistadors were "Christians". The Romans lived their best times full of passion and wolfish ferocity without the need to philosophize and analyze the causes of their actions. The whole world was afraid of them. On the contrary - decline occurred when the sons of Mars began to think about the value of others.

[@JohnSmith-en6ev]

Germans.... 😢

[@AncientGreeceRevisited]

:-)