Andreas Malm on Palestine, Climate Activism and over-shooting 1.5 °C

Andreas Malm is a Swedish climate activist, associate professor of human ecology at Lund University, and author of the best-selling How to Blow Up a Pipeline: Learning to Fight in a World on Fire. Naomi Klein describes him as “one of the most original thinkers on the subject" of climate change.
In this interview with his Verso editor, Sebastian Budgen, he discusses the origins of his climate activism, strategic failures of the climate movement, his pro-Palestinian politics, and eco-socialism.
You can find all his work, including How to Blow Up a Pipeline, here: www.versobooks.com/blogs/auth...
0:00:00 Intro
0:00:43 Early life
0:13:17 Palestine
0:28:50 Involvement in Climate Politics
0:35:50 Fossil Capital
0:41:20 Robert Brenner (long waves)
0:44:43 Eco-socialism
0:50:11 Progress of the Storm (opposing transhumanism/OOO)
0:54:52 Corona Climate Chronic Emergency (war communism and ecological Leninism)
1:09:19 How to Blow Up a Pipeline
1:13:06 Strategic failures of the climate movement
1:27:23 White Skin, Black Fuel
1:33:19 Overshoot (Adaptation and carbon capture going past 1.5C)
1:43:30 Psychoanalysis
1:46:50 Wilderness

[@angwantibo]

I get that Malm wants to distance himself from Latour, but the quarrel with Moore is so weird and its even weirder that he groups Latour and Moore together as this makes it seem like he is avoiding something that Moore would confront him with. Strategy is super important and I think political activism needs strategical thinking in order to realise its agency, but we also need to understand how deeply the capitalist mode of production is rooted in the exploitation of nature. I don't see how we can change social relations if we don't understand them properly. Diversity of tactics should include sabotage as well as the exploration and the development of non-exploitative social relations. Yes, its the fossil capitalists that profit the most and sabotage can minimise the incentive to continue present ways of exploitation, but its also true that our whole mode of production is dependent on this exploitation and I don't see how that can change if we don't face it head on, if we don't realise that this will require radical changes in the ways we produce, the ways we live, the ways we feed ourselves etc. pp...

[@angwantibo]

also Malm should read Samo Tomsics book on the capitalist unconscious. The key insight of Lacan for Marxism (that Tomsic points towards) is that capitalism does not only thrive on the repression of desire but on enjoyment/jouissance. Freudo-Marxism has historically focussed too much on repression and neglected capitalist enjoyment.

[@Karamazov9]

@@angwantiboZizek has been saying this for 30 years re:enjoyment

[@angwantibo]

​@@Karamazov9 that's probably why I'm suggesting Tomsic, a lucid student of Zizek who got his education at the Ljubljana University where Zizek taught. Tomsics book unfolds this relation between capitalist surplus value and psychic surplus enjoyment as something that Zizek has been saying for 30 years, but in a more systematic way then Zizek was ever able to put down in writing, without resorting to Zizekian style, which makes it very lucid and readable

[@TheDraxton]

Good callout! I was really scratching my head as to why Malm is so... opposed to Moore's thesis. I don't even see these two as having oppositional positions- it just kinda seems like Malm saw some negative outcomes of Moore's work and dismissed all of it. I'm about ready to do a "leftist infighting" on this guy lol

[@michaelrch]

Is there some reason that Andreas and Roger Hallam haven't had the conversation about tactics?

[@leskuzyk2425]

maybe , yeah ... good question

[@noahsark2009]

Roger is strictly non-violent, and focused on building a mass movement through non-violent actions.. He has a lot to teach everyone.

[@jodawgsup]

@@noahsark2009 utopian

[@noahsark2009]

@@jodawgsup Roger knows the nuts and bolts dynamics of building a grassroots nonviolent movement from the ground up instead of just blabbing about it. In the past year he put a lot of videos up on youtube explaining how to do it. If you want to walk the walk check it out.

[@jodawgsup]

@@noahsark2009 the irony of "building a grassroots nonviolent movement" is apparently lost on you. It is utopian to think that you will affect any change; Andreas Malm and what he said regarding the fetishizing of the tactic you employ is evident here. Nothing has been changed through "grassroots nonviolent movement" in the last decades.

[@singingway]

1:20:51 the big events, big concerts, ARE fossil fuel expenditures.

[@kennethhymes9734]

Rsdicals are going to have to start getting more nuts and bolts about social relations: I cannot fly to tunisia to help out, and more crucially, anything truly radical i do locally may create a better long term future, but it will likely harm my partner and children immediately, and sever other social bonds as wel. In my case, I might very well become unhoused in Michigan were I to act on my principles forthrightly. Solutions to this core issue for the roughly seventy percent of people who want positive radical change, that would be more helpful than a lot of theory and historical score settling and position defending.

[@janllh24]

To protect capital, indeed, but the latter must be understood in the widest sense possible, i.e. the entire global money-commodity nexus, to think in terms of €$etc, even as means of compensation for extant or historical inequities is to not yet grasp how radical the crisis is and how correspondingly radical the solution will have to be. It's not just about fossil fuel corporations and their assets but the whole system whose life blood they supply. All the dead labour that drives living labour will have to be forsaken, so that life might have a chance of flourishing

[@voltage80x]

Hello, what do you mean by dead labor and living labor?

[@michaelyeiser1565]

Words do not matter here. Numbers matter. You people don't understand numbers--much like your Bolshevik forbears.

[@GloriaCompton]

wow

[@Tommeyification]

which struggle on adaptation in france does he mean?

[@noahsark2009]

"Never ending anarchist hangover" haha sounds very familiar to me, personally.

[@jokaShack]

Malm for the Ummah!

[@kathyfaulk710]

do you think there is any relation between climate activism reaching points where something might have been accomplished and the pandemic? I have thought it (pandemic) and subsequent rise in inflation to be a reaction to rise in power of labor (wages). I would be more eloquent in the morning...

[@guapochino140]

Are you saying the pandemic was an engineered response to keep workers down? Surely govts were getting pretty good at nosediving the economy, bailing out their allies, and then implementing austerity, without the need for any virus. And then in 2020 wage labor showed itself to be the more essential part of the economy rather than the class of people who have meetings all day. If anything, the pandemic was both a warning of things to come and a test run of how we might deal with a radical change in our daily lives.

[@kathyfaulk710]

@@guapochino140 well. yeah.That's what I'm saying, although more eloquently.

[@silerbage]

where did he got that shirt tho

[@Ecotechnologist]

Genuine question but how do people afford to just be parts of revolutions? How can you just go to Tunisia and fight? Don’t you have to work 24:40

[@noizydan]

Soldiers receive payment normally. Revolutions aren't free.

[@valardohaeriz5163]

Most probably passive income

[@scysjabaouardy4418]

Of course it is not easy for workers. But when you are a part of an organisation, the money just is there. You collect it, share it, you get all kind of free stuff lol

[@MetabolismofCities]

Fantastic interview, long enough to cover theoretical, personal and contemporary issues. Please do more of them, there sure is an appetite!

[@notanemoprog]

You are a terrorist.

[@singingway]

1:41:48 circular carbon product -- a dangerous delusion.

[@mkbnett]

All the actions listed around 1:14:00 are petty and destructive and do not fundamentally change the structures of need... People in crowded cities away from natural abundance will always need resources taken from afar. This always requires energy, and even renewables have long payback periods. We need agrarian solutions, Permaculture ecovillages, and development of regenerative productive capacities. Destructive tactics are like cutting off a head of the Hydra.

[@ButWhyMe...]

I agree! Could you go into more detail about how we could get those agrarian solutions?

[@majedharb6789]

Very impressive. I have been involved in the environmental movement in America for the last 25 years . Still, I raĺy for Palestine. I think both originate from the concept of Justice. Working fo one should supplement working for the other

[@jamestiburon443]

You speak beautiful English. Kudos. I understand the rage. I do think the feedback loops are locked in already. As soon as Arctic Ice is lost (Less than 1 million kilometers), We soon, within 3 years, loose ability to keep agriculture sustainable because of rapid heat increase. And Methane is NOT even taken into account by the IPCC. I am sympathetic, but may I suggest the "Post Doom" videos by the recently deceased Michael Dowd.

[@jamestiburon443]

Just a Spiritual book suggestion maybe to help. It is free on KZbin and is about reincarnation, in other words, why was I born in this country, family, spouse, children, etc. It is "Journey of Souls", by Dr. Michael Newton. After years of searching Theology and Philosophy, this book is the WISEST I have found. Ciao, Friends

[@duarte753]

this guy right here fucks ! repping a pflp tshirt talking bout blowing up pipelines i though we couldnt have it all im in love

[@anamulrahman543]

❤❤❤FREE PALESTINE❤❤❤🇵🇸

[@singingway]

I hate it when moderators ask them to tell their whole life story. I am here for climate strategy.

[@DjinnandTonik]

you can just skip to those parts

[@hime273]

The Strategy is to increase the Tax funded Weather Warfare/Geoengineering Terrorism, in order to Scam more $$$ from your Bank Account.

[@sigmundfreud2443]

​@@DjinnandTonikYou should skip that, holy. This dude showcased any quirky pretentious intellectual stereotype there is.

[@valardohaeriz5163]

I love Andreas Malm, his courage inspires me. Why can't he have his own weekly podcast?

[@singingway]

Are there other ways to shift the crisis from the victims (all of us) onto those driving the climate crisis? How to make it their crisis? Pushing for nationalization of this rogue industry and indicting the fossil fuel CEOs (both current and former), their boards and shareholders, for CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

[@okernist-gut223]

I dont know whether you are familiar with Cato the elder, an ancient roman senator: He was famous to say one sentence after every single speech he delivered: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. " (btw, I think Carthage has to be destroyed) He was somebody we today would describe as a hawk. Eventually Carthage got destroyed. Now over the last 30 years we've been heavily invested into educating people about "climate change". It was a very complicated debate in which it was very easy for our opponents to take each and every argument and tear them to bits. Things weren't made easier by the fact we argued with the assumption that if we would do more democracy and abolish every single mode of oppression people then would themselves come together and solve the climate crisis. There were two contradictions with this approach: 1st this mode of discourse wasn't democratic at all. You would need to have time to read environmental studies, sharpen your critique of capitalism, because only then you could go to other people and tell them that they should simply listen to you. 2nd we didn't expect that people would hold us to our word when they simply came out and said that they simply don't want to, because of freedom. My approach is simple: I combine both camps into one cohesive totalitarian argument: "the systematic escalating annihilation of our base of life for the profits of a few has to be ceased!!!" I dont talk about Capitalism and I dont talk about Science anymore.

[@SystemsMedicine]

Hi Sing. I take it that you don’t drive a car, use plastics (like in a phone or a chair), have carpets, wear synthetic clothes, drive on or otherwise use blacktop roads, fly in planes, have paint on or in your house or apartment, use anything imported from overseas, use modern air conditioning, use certain pharmaceuticals or solvents, use or even own a clothes washer or dryer, use electricity generated from oil or coal, and on and on and on… If you do any of these things, then perhaps you are the criminal that you wish to punish. Or are you somehow exempt, maybe because you are so special?

[@michaelyeiser1565]

Good luck.

[@radscorpion8]

They didn't commit any crimes though, that is the issue with your entire complaint. If you want to shift the crisis, there is something you can do, but I wouldn't dare name it here. But you can imagine what it is

[@SystemsMedicine]

@@okernist-gut223 Hi Okernist. I think your timeline is a little off. Gore’s movie, An Inconvenient Truth, and his associated world speaking tour was around 2006. He essentially got the Nobel Prize for raising the issue to the level of international public discourse. At that time, it was called ‘global warming’. Of course Sagan was talking about it in the early 90s, and suggesting that the air pollution was a planetary scale disastrous ‘experiment’, but few were paying attention. Then, when the most dire of the global warming predictions didn’t happen, folks changed the wording to ‘climate change’. Nowadays, some refer to it exclusively in terms of a ‘climate crisis’. [Note that about 50 years ago, people were claiming that the coming of ‘global cooling’ was a crisis. The (West) Germans were warning about ‘environmental collapse’ in the early 80s, but not about global warming.] I’m not going to do a study, but it appears that non-capitalist and quasi-capitalist countries are responsible for more air pollution than capitalist countries, and the gulf is growing wider every year. [The old Soviet Union was an environmental disaster, just as China is today. Whereas Western Europe and North America have (generally) been working toward environmental improvements, with some very noticeable success, for about 50 years.] I think you are weakening your position by diluting an anti-pollution campaign by mixing it with an anti-capitalist message. I know it is considered modern to criticize capitalism in every discussion, but I speculate that reliance on a political fashion will not serve you well in the long run; although, I could be mistaken: you might be able to stampede the public with this distraction. Analysis of global warming data does not suggest that it is leading to “escalating annihilation of the basis of life” as you claim. Again, if you are merely attempting to manipulate people, your approach may work; otherwise, a realignment of your position with the data would make it more plausible. [Personally, I am more concerned with the quantity and variety of sulfurous compounds that China is injecting into Earth’s atmosphere, but my interests lay more with modeling and simulation of other planetary atmospheres, so I won’t press the issues here.] Okernist, I am sympathetic to your overall desire to improve Earth’s atmosphere; so I wish you well in this endeavor. Good Luck. Cheers.

[@anyoneattheendoftime4932]

They hated Andreas because he told them the truth.

[@amosbatto3051]

Not having a theoretical background, I didn't get much out of the discussion about the theorists who influenced Andreas Malm, but the second hour of the interview got much better when Andreas Malm started talking about his recent work. At the end of the interview, Malm makes the point that Capitalist companies are trying to avoid capital destruction of their existing businesses based on fossil fuels, which is why the world is turning to 1. adaption, 2. geoengineering, and 3. carbon capture from the atmosphere, instead of reducing GHG emissions. My pessimistic conclusion is that the only force that can engage in capital destruction of the old dirty industries is the new green industries. The companies pushing solar and wind energy, batteries, EVs, heat pumps, etc. are causing the capital destruction of the old dirty economy based on fossil fuels, and it is allowed to happen, because it is taking place under the aegis of Capitalism, whereas that capital destruction would never be allowed to happen by governmental decrees which got enacted through climate activism. There are all sorts of ecological problems with these new green companies, and many of them are being bought up by the old dirty companies (BP, Shell, Occidental, etc.), but I do see the competitive pressure of Tesla and BYD forcing the legacy auto companies to switch from ICE to electric motors, and the solar, wind and battery storage companies literally destroying the old power businesses based on fossil fuels. GE, Siemens, Shanghai Electric, Dongfang and Harbin Electric have all decided to become wind turbine companies to manage the transition from their old gas/coal power businesses. The petroleum/gas companies were allowed to destroy the capital of the coal companies in the US, and I think that the same will happen in time with the new green companies destroying the capital of the petroleum/gas companies. As a climate activist, I see S curve tech disruption happening in the power industry and automotive industries, whereas we have made very little progress in other areas where there isn't new green tech which is cheaper/better to disrupt the old dirty industries (such as aviation, shipping, fertilizer, steel, plastics, cement, petrochemicals, agriculture and livestock raising). My sad conclusion is that the most effective activism is getting bigger government budgets for clean tech R&D and more government subsidies/incentives/grants to jumpstart new tech industries which can fight old dirty industries. In other words, the most change is coming from using green Keynesian Capitalism to fight old Capitalism, but that will only recreate many of the Capitalist ills that we already have. Nonetheless, green Keynesianism is better than what came before. I do think that passing the Inflation Reduction Act (which came out of Build Back Better, which in turn came from Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign) is an advance, so I do see small progress being made by climate activism. Keynesian Capitalism is decarbonizing parts of the economy. In H1 2023, 92.5% of new global electric generation was renewable and only 3.8% was based on fossil fuels (EMBER 2023), so the global power industry is being transformed and is likely to get to net zero in its operations by 2050 in most of the world, since it won't be long before it will be cheaper to build new solar/wind+batteries than keep running old fossil fuel power plants. In Sept 2023, 35%, 25% and 25% of new vehicle sales were EVs (BEVs+PHEVs) in China, Europe and California, respectively, so the automotive industry is changing fast and I foresee 99% of vehicles on the road being EVs in China and Europe by 2050 and in North America, S. Korea and Australia by 2055 and the rest of the world by 2060. My point is that strategically we should not give up on climate activism to push green Keynesianism, because we need to survive as a species, and I think that green Keynesianism like the IRA is moving people politically to a better place where they will be more open to Socialism in the long run. The political attitudes of the youth in the US show that people are moving ideologically closer to Socialism. Also, world opinion is changing toward Palestine, so I see a lot more hope than I used to.

[@kennethhymes9734]

Great stuff. Ernest Mandel may have had his limits, but we need his ideas about human agency to be a credible presence in either theory or action. The reductive ideas which people encounter in some circles, rarely or never found in Marx's work, are a major stumbling block to consciousness raising, as they are an easy out and an easy target. I am fully aware of the double standard, that markets never are required to defend their situational logic and amateur sociology, but that does not get us out of being effective.

[@jamilabagash149]

The amount of environmental damage these thousands of missiles and bombs bring about, is not being talked about at all. Someone must be held accountable for all the pollution and greenhouse gasses.

[@GlobeHackers]

I very much appreciate Andreas Malm's work. It is a clarifying collection of ideas surrounding the greatest crisis civilization has ever faced. Although I have observed some contradictions in his train of thought, engaging in multiple perspectives of a complex web of causation encompassing the "hard" question of culture and social organization is the only way we can understand the constellation of interactions that have driven the metastasization of our current predicament. Climate activism reflects the disjointed nature living with social media has given us by providing a validation machine for any given set of positions and a sticky platform to plant various flags. Few of us can and will engage thoughts that have been bleached out of a world where mainstream, yes, Biz-As-Usual propaganda and techniques of manufacturing consent have destroyed our ability to think freely as a community. Victims of Capitalism struggle to survive while most in The West are on the dance floor, oblivious to any concept of self-sacrifice. Westerners are soft and narcissistic reenactors of nostalgic, heroic times we hardly understand. We live in an age of debilitating disappointment. The theater of action and self-righteous concern is the latest iteration of the theater of that absurd. Power seeks more control, and we are a species that evolved for social programming. How to gain power, control, and orchestrate social programming seems like a fantasy in a world where we are all banal Accelerationists simply because we are consumers. You can find an earnest article wrestling with Andreas at: On the Clarities and Blind Spots of Andreas Malm. But no one wrestles Andreas like Andreas. This conversation is much appreciated.

[@danielacheson3641]

Great comment

[@GlobeHackers]

Thank you for reading it. I could go on and on. I'm so tired.@@danielacheson3641

[@radscorpion8]

Sounds like you have a wide range of problems rather than any specific critique. All I'd say is that "manufacturing consent" originally only applied to journalists working at big mainstream publicationsi and TV networks. I don't think it applies to twitter and social media. If anything you have the opposite problem on those platforms, where conspiracy theories have equal weight to reality, and the former spread like wildfire just because there are a few crank professors or doctors who swear that something is true. And then you have millions who believe the election was stolen or that covid-19 vaccines secretly cause people to die and that the real cure (if they believe covid-19 is real to begin with) is vitamin D and exercise. And secondly, accelerationism is really a very specific position that seeks to exacerbate the so-called "contradictions of capitalism" on purpose so that it fails faster. It might sound attractive to label consumers in this way, I kind of see what your point is, but it isn't really accurate. Consumers are the outcome of the system and whatever taxes and subsidies the government has placed. They don't put their foot on any pedals. They just go with the flow wherever that flow leads, and its primarily towards some self-gratification, some towards efficiency and charity (to help reduce power consumption and assist others), and the rest just food and water. I really doubt that those kinds of needs could be labelled accelerationist. Anyway I know people like to type poetically online so I forgive you

[@radscorpion8]

Sounds like you have a wide range of problems rather than any specific critique. All I'd say is that "manufacturing consent" originally only applied to journalists working at big mainstream publicationsi and TV networks. I don't think it applies to twitter and social media. If anything you have the opposite problem on those platforms, where conspiracy theories have equal weight to reality, and the former spread like wildfire just because there are a few crank professors or doctors who swear that something is true. And then you have millions who believe the election was stolen or conspiracies surrounding covid. Special thanks Bret Weinstein there. And secondly, accelerationism is really a very specific position that seeks to exacerbate the so-called "contradictions of capitalism" on purpose so that it fails faster. It might sound attractive to label consumers in this way, I kind of see what your point is, but it isn't really accurate. Consumers are the outcome of the system and whatever taxes and subsidies the government has placed. They don't put their foot on any pedals. They just go with the flow wherever that flow leads, and its primarily towards some self-gratification, some towards efficiency and charity (to help reduce power consumption and assist others), and the rest just food and water. I really doubt that those kinds of needs could be labelled accelerationist

[@980amo]

Excellent interview-- Malm explains clearly and programmatically. Hard to sustain armchair models of incremental action when time is, indeed, running out. Along with Amitav Ghosh, Malm is one of the more clear-sighted interpreters of climate change action as a driver of global social change.

[@jeanjacquesdessalines1425]

Merci beaucoup

[@tommynocash2419]

There's also something quite attractive about his gaze and how he holds himself

[@johncoleman3073]

A crisis for those causing the crisis, 👏👏👏👏

[@damienlucas3804]

Tremendous discussion...cheers🙏

[@erikolsen6269]

This dude Spits truth to power

[@cmc5394oparva]

LOL, his side is completely in charge of Europe's cultural and corporate institutions. TF you going on about?

[@augusto3208]

Very clear and honest exposure

[@widescreen8964]

Sorry, but geo-engineering is not limited to SAI

[@venus67venus]

Wait sweden is not terrible like sure some people but some things are better here than many places come on, like i felt like you even have good like "swedish" ways of thinking idk

[@gabrielajonczyk5663]

Capitalism is personality quality, so it is symptom of it that activists are more book sellers on the market (selling of ideas). It's also big part of tourism and plane travel because in capitalism it's not important what small group do if big group, tourists, is buying. Activists are disappointing as long as they want to sell themselves and ideas but don't do much, don't have ability to impact market but only enrich it with themselves.

[@mattiethemongoose3rd]

Interesting to note that Andreas Malm's experience of Anarchism was very similar to mine. I'm still a believer in Anarchism though.

[@celestialteapot309]

Perhaps we should adopt a belief in a creator God and pray to him five times a day, might work?

[@totonow6955]

Inshallah? Should we perhaps bring a deconstructed understanding of religion in here? So much of the confusion comes in at this juncture, doesn't it?

[@sor715]

what the hell are you on about.

[@Ecotechnologist]

Seriously bro wtf are you saying? Israel-Palestine has absolutely zilch to do with religion. It’s a settler colonial project

[@tommynocash2419]

Love this guy and his intellect, it's deep but direct

[@ChrisInToon]

The planet is ok, not much wrong with the climate, it would actually be better if there were more CO2 not less, a warm planet is habitable, how can you plough a field if it is cold? How do you travel if the sea is not navigable...?

[@henriklybeck579]

Rate of change is what matters, and it’s absolutely catastrophic. Feel free to look up the term.

[@ChrisInToon]

@@henriklybeck579 No it is a term of art, from the nomenclaturer, part of the artifice that supports your weak world view, everytime they need to make it seem all the bit more extreme so you top your self up with more fear upon more misery. I should know as I was once just like you. Do yourself a favour watch Martin Durkin's movie CIMATE: THE MOVIE (THE COLD TRUTH) it will calm you down, the world is not ending but hey maybe you want just that doomsday. I am still youngish but the amount of times I have heard 5years to save the planet unless we do not do x y z etc... countless predictions, all wildly wrong. "absolutely catastrophic" no you get a grip and chill out and enjoy your life instead of living in fear.

[@anthonymorris5084]

Naiomi Klein. Get real. The queen of Marxism.

[@castorzwieback6522]

WTF?! I love fossil fuels now!

[@MentallyRetardedHamilton]

did he read any of the books behind him? Sophistry from the left? Ah hah, caught you.

[@kasparsupinen2323]

he literally wrote the orange book to his left