Dr. Jonathan Haidt: How Smartphones & Social Media Impact Mental Health & the Realistic Solutions

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Jonathan Haidt, Ph.D., professor of social psychology at New York University and bestselling author on how technology and culture impact the psychology and health of kids, teens, and adults. We discuss the dramatic rise of suicide, depression, and anxiety as a result of replacing a play-based childhood with smartphones, social media, and video games.
He explains how a screen-filled childhood leads to challenges in psychological development that negatively impact learning, resilience, identity, cooperation, and conflict resolution - all of which are crucial skills for future adult relationships and career success. We also discuss how phones and social media impact boys and girls differently and the underlying neurobiological mechanisms of how smartphones alter basic brain plasticity and function.
Dr. Haidt explains his four recommendations for healthier smartphone use in kids, and we discuss how to restore childhood independence and play in the current generation.
This is an important topic for everyone, young or old, parents and teachers, students and families, to be aware of in order to understand the potential mental health toll of smartphone use and to apply tools to foster skill-building and reestablish healthy norms for our kids.
Access the full show notes, including referenced articles, books, people mentioned, and additional resources: www.hubermanlab.com/episode/d...
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Timestamps
00:00:00 Dr. Jonathan Haidt
00:02:01 Sponsors: Helix Sleep, AeroPress & Joovv
00:06:23 Great Rewiring of Childhood: Technology, Smartphones & Social Media
00:12:48 Mental Health Trends: Boys, Girls & Smartphones
00:16:26 Smartphone Usage, Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhood
00:20:40 The Tragedy of Losing Play-Based Childhood
00:28:13 Sponsor: AG1
00:30:02 Girls vs. Boys, Interests & Trapping Kids
00:37:31 “Effectance,” Systems & Relationships, Animals
00:41:47 Boys Sexual Development, Dopamine Reinforcement & Pornography
00:49:19 Boys, Courtship, Chivalry & Technology; Gen Z Development
00:55:24 Play & Low-Stakes Mistakes, Video Games & Social Media, Conflict Resolution
00:59:48 Sponsor: LMNT
01:01:23 Social Media, Trolls, Performance
01:06:47 Dynamic Subordination, Hierarchy, Boys
01:10:15 Girls & Perfectionism, Social Media & Performance
01:14:00 Phone-Based Childhood & Brain Development, Critical Periods
01:21:15 Puberty & Sensitive Periods, Culture & Identity
01:23:55 Brain Development & Puberty; Identity; Social Media, Learning & Reward
01:33:37 Tool: 4 Recommendations for Smartphone Use in Kids
01:41:48 Changing Childhood Norms, Policies & Legislature
01:49:13 Summer Camp, Team Sports, Religion, Music
01:54:36 Boredom, Addiction & Smartphones; Tool: “Awe Walks”
02:03:14 Casino Analogy & Ceding Childhood; Social Media Content
02:09:33 Adult Behavior; Tool: Meals & Phones
02:11:45 Regaining Childhood Independence; Tool: Family Groups & Phones
02:16:09 Screens & Future Optimism, Collective Action, KOSA Bill
02:24:52 Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, KZbin Feedback, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter
#HubermanLab #MentalHealth
Disclaimer: www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

[@hali6260]

Watching this on my smartphone.

[@daveyboy4715]

Scrolling on my smartphone with this in the background

[@Screw_This]

Only you and everybody else.

[@nevergiveup5939]

Why are we here in this life? Why do we die? What will happen to us after death??

[@more.art.less.war.]

​@@nevergiveup5939 to live, to love be loved, to create things, to help others do the same. To experience things from your unique perspective amd learn something from it. That's what I think.

[@Respect2theFallen]

Exactly 😂🤣😂

[@jamesbell7246]

I'm a school teacher. Getting this across to kids and parents is CORE

[@kl2176]

Only half way thru. Guess you really need some insights into girls. Boy development interesting and useful. Cant really call this relating to childhood development..with conclusions about girls based on anticdotal information. A bit like drug approvals based on male participants.

[@carriefu458]

I teach high school chemistry and this is the reality that we are all facing... 😳😭🥺

[@carlangaz007]

whats sad is that the generation that was raised in the early 2000s late 90s were the guineapigs for this internet thing... no wonder i am going through so much struggle in my life and mental health issues possibly caused by the internet i was given with no restrictions as a child together with videogames without a second thought on age restriction for any of the content... basically P*rn anytime i ever wanted 3 times a day ever since i was 10 years old till mid 20s that i decided to stop watching it for good

[@adelineellen]

I think information like this should be by choice to learn and understand

[@tidepride86]

@@kl2176 lol "guess you really need some insights into girls".....yea....that tone with strangers will definitely get them sympathetic to your views.

[@nikitakorobkin2874]

When I was 13, I went to a summer camp. Phones were banned. You got them for 1.5 hours every day to call parents. Otherwise, children were forced to find other ways to entertain themselves. We had actual conversations, played chess when really bored, participated in fun events, just hanged out at the beach. It was one of the best periods of my life. It felt like actually living. And when I got back home, it felt surreal. Two completely different realities.

[@tsgosser]

That was the 1970's and 80's that I grew up in.

[@andrewthomas695]

Sadly, there is no going back. Way too much money to be made.

[@infiniteworfare5089]

i had very good times in video games as well. they were the best periods of my life. just do both social media and video games.

[@jessicalovescraig]

It is changing humanity.

[@robdielemans9189]

Boredom is such a valuable ingredient for finding things out about yourself.

[@frightfactoryYT]

This should seriously be a mandatory watch for every human ever. How there are still people who don't believe social media is the worst thing to have happened in recent times is beyond me

[@laurelinos]

Is like the cigarette....it will happen the same. The problem is that social media platforms are actually market platforms use to sell shit....so, I see mayor tech companies doing the impossible to keep that alive.....

[@dar1n_fgp]

Eh remember hitler?

[@RivIrie]

I was saying it back when MySpace was the latest thing.

[@QualityQman]

​@laurelinos just like cigarette companies did.

[@alexkhakha6104]

I Do Agree With You, Period 🤘🤘🤘🤘

[@aarkinsahu970]

Hi Dr. Andrew Huberman. I am 17 and I found this video really really interesting. Social media has never been the oh so love for any teen. And I say this because I have the experience of feeling a void, a sense of loneliness with the social media. The endless hours of scrolling reels, time flying by has all taken a toll on me. Through this video, It certainly helped me and I messaged my friends, I will quote this " i don't feel social media truly fulfilling and hence I am quitting it." I have completely deleted my social media account. I will come back to this comment a month later and tell you all how I feel. I feel oh so excited now. Thank you Andrew for your interest in science.

[@ogunkazel8716]

I deleted both Facebook and Instagram 4-5 years ago. I am not missing a bit. I can actually allocate that time something more meaningful. All the best my friend. And watch out for reels, it is causing train your brain to attention deficit because content is changing every 30 -50 secs. The fact that you are here at this early age, listening Huberman tells me you are in good direction. All the best my friend 💪

[@shilpajain2276]

​@@ogunkazel8716can you suggest how do you quit it entirely , because I keep relapsing and end up in the same loop ?

[@ogunkazel8716]

@@shilpajain2276 I first got it frozen for 2 months and then I noticed I dont actually lose by not having them. My mental health has improved significantly, there was nothing wrong with mental health to start with but at least I stopped comparing myself with other people and feeling there is something wrong with me, everyone else is figured out, only me left behind. As well as I got rid off all those convincing thoughts that "yeah, my parents and my friends are following me from Instagram or Facebook, they see my life, people are connecting me here". And then one day I just deleted it. Hardest part, Facebook warns you that you cant retrieve your photos once you delete and you actually have attachments to those photos but I actually didnt care that much. One of best decisions I took.

[@carmenbenitez141]

I am glad that I am 50 y/o. I have the ability to connect and disconnect from social media easily. The only social media I use is X and KZbin but I am careful to set boundaries around them. I mainly use it for information that otherwise I would have to pay for, like this lectures or discussions. Take breaks from technology so often so you could learn how to be with it and without it. Stay committed to your journey!

[@tarunce995]

👍 agreed

[@sarahfisher3457]

Born in 89 here and a parent to 3 young children. Something that stood out to me is the fact that parents feel obligated to give their kids a phone because “everyone else’s” kids have one. This feels like a new phenomenon. When I was a kid I was always complaining that I am the only one that doesn’t have this or do that and my parents basically said “so what.” Parents today seem to feel an obligation to assist their children to conforming to peer pressure for acceptance and I wonder if this is the product of adult and parent social media use. This episode is such a blessing as I can get ahead of some of these conversations in my home before they come up. Thank you again for a phenomenal episode!

[@zaks7306]

But how to deal with the genuine distress kids feel at being the only ones without phones?

[@sarahfisher3457]

@@zaks7306 Dr. Haidt mentions finding a group of families with the same rules or making a pact with other families so that they aren’t isolated in their experience. I personally think that it might be a little healthy to be on the outside sometimes. Like the saying goes “if so and so jumped off of a bridge would you?” But I admittedly have yet to be humbled by the teenage years.

[@zaks7306]

I just don’t know how long it’s possible to keep a smartphone out of their hands with all the friends literally “having phone based childhoods”. I feel like the solution might be in better parental controls over the devices but honestly I am not sure it’s as easy as that

[@shodack5124]

My daughter is 11, finishing up 6th grade. She doesn't have a phone and I'm not planning to get her one until 8th grade. Luckily she does have ONE friend who's parents have a similar plan. (Most kids had phones by 4th grade) But she constantly talks about it- what she'll do when she has one, what passcode she'll have, asks about my expectations for privacy, etc. I hate the obsession, but I'm also very lucky that she communicates. She says she understands why, but would still rather have a phone. I think the communication is a key- I let her bring it up when she wants, ask what she wants, and that has helped a lot.

[@adamhope8689]

Parents are top concerned with their child's perception of them. Can't let their feeling hurt for even a second. Well guess what? You end up with nothing but a population of emotionally immature adults (children). And we wonder why the structures that have been built are falling apart 🤔

[@michaelbrooke448]

Thank you for this interview! I am a high school teacher. As a result of Dr. Haidt’s book “The Anxious Generation” my school board is considering a much more stringent electronic device policy. This policy will effectively ban phones during regular school hours. This issue is so important to me that after reading the book I bought copies for all admins and school board members paid for out of my own pocket. If you have not been in a high school in the last 10 years, you have no idea how the dynamic has changed. In the best of times teens have had a brief attention span and were socially awkward. Now, well into the smart phone/social media era, attention spans are nonexistent. Face-to-face conversations between teens happen infrequently if at all. Children (teens are still children) will sit in the presence of one another, yet be lost in their digital world. A total phone ban at school is one way to combat this trend of social media social isolation. And a side benefit is less time that I have to spend saying “little Johnny, put your phone away” and more time for learning!

[@Returntotheworld]

Kids are allowed phones at my kids school ( from age 13-18 ) but if caught using it anywhere during school hours it’s confiscated immediately and not returned until the end of the school day + a detention is issued. They have a talk at least 1/2 times per year that gets more and more explicit about the dangers online as per what is age appropriate. That any school allows kids to be accessing their phone in school hours is insane to me. It needs to stop. They should be a break and sanctuary from all that noise and forcing them into real world discussions might be painful to them but very needed. I hope your school board sees sense and I am sharing with you that others schools are not allowing it and it works fine. Edit to say we are probably of the same mindset and I agree with you and am demonstrating real world example where it’s not allowed.

[@TS-fr7ch]

Yes so true. Boundaries are necessary❤

[@jcstuart6978]

Giving your children a smart phone is not giving them access to the world, it's giving the world access to them.

[@B.Extreme]

Mmhhh truth that!!

[@jimdavis1566]

It's both

[@pickupwisdom13]

Can you explain a little bit more what do you mean?

[@FoursWithin]

​​@@pickupwisdom13 It means everyone from corporations to cult leaders to pedophiles to political propagandists have access to exploit the nations children

[@ReligionAndMaterialismDebunked]

:3 Yeah, I know the 90s, as I was born in 89 in Miami, FL, USA.

[@thevirtuouscollector]

I haven't watched the full podcast yet but what cured my social media, phone and doom scrolling addiction were 3 non-cognitively demanding things (be warned, this might make you laugh at how pathetic I am!) 1-- Portable games console. Unlike social media, a single player videogame has a finite play time with an actual ending. You play a game to indulge in it's gripping story, keep your brain active and your hands busy. Avoid multiplayer online games and go for the ones with great stories. 2-- Carry a notebook around. Journal, write down your thoughts, unleash your inner passion or frustrations, always have a small note book ready at all times and 3-- Carry a small action figure. Yes you heard that right, I have a small pose-able figurine of Batman I carry around like a demented dork that I do action poses whenever I feel like wasting time on my phone. The satisfaction of seeing Batman doing the Gangnam Style pose is usually adequate enough to quell my cravings for something novel on social media at the cost of my friends and family mocking me. Now go forth and be as insane as I am! At least you'll be cured from the endless doomscrolling without relying on drugs!

[@tobiassoar]

These are all excellent steps to take. I’ve done very similar things. It’s all about having dedicated tools for specific things: Journalling = notebook Music = modern Walkman Games = Steam Deck Reading = Books or Kindle

[@supersonicsenses]

This cracked me up. Great techniques. Thanks for the mental imagery 😊

[@mathias5578]

I usually do Duolingo to fight the wish to scroll.

[@Fab666.]

Welcome back to the 90s 😂

[@nickh.9816]

Thanks for sharing. Hopefully it helps someone else.

[@ankitjain3310]

My mom has Schizophrenia from last 25 years. She has no mobile, no friends, and doesn't watch TV. She just sits by herself in her room, or most of the time, sleeps. She had no mobile before her illness too. But if you talk to her, she will patiently and calmly talk to you for long, listen, and most importantly, not get agitated even after a heated argument where only I get stressed. She is so much available. Her thoughts are not influenced by mobile content, social media and endless barrage of "comparison". Please allow yourself to get "BORED". BOREDOM will help you to explore more in your relationship and life as you become emotionally available for others. There's really something very peculiar about people who have been untouched by mobile and TV in their lives. Thanks Dr. Huberman and Dr. Jonathan.

[@pickupwisdom13]

Impressive and inspiring story. This shows how much it's important to reduce social media consumption so that we can value much more direct social interaction.

[@yashtapase3821]

What is schizophrenia? Please explain me in your words I'm new to hear this

[@yashtapase3821]

R you from india Considering your name

[@disha2932]

My mother has schizophrenia too. And all the words spoken by you feel like they’ve come right out of my mouth. On her good days, she is so patient and kind. I often feel I am the hot headed one in front of her. She is also a very understanding person. I often joke around saying mom is the on,y one who does use social media and doesn’t watch television. It’s truly amazing to see how people uninfluenced by social media function in their day to day life. I have also greatly reduced my socials consumption in recent times and I do find myself less overwhelmed in general.

[@slwleyland]

You and your mothers may want to research Dr. Chris Palmer and Dr. Georgia Ede’s books. Also, Metabolic Mind podcast on KZbin. KZbin is more of an educational platform for me learning about nutrition and health.

[@JosephBlanch]

I’ve listened to a few interviews with Jonathan Haidt but this is by far the most interesting one I’ve heard as Huberman and Haidt play off of each other and get each other more and more excited and they are learning from each other in real time. Incredible and such a fun interview.

[@cloudbloom]

I stopped using social media (besides youtube) cold turkey three years ago and it has been such an improvement in my life. I didn't send one last message, one last post telling everyone i was getting off the apps i just literally stopped going to the sites and using the apps. It's easier to do than one might think even if you're hopelessly addicted like i was, spending ten hours a day scrolling through various groups and online communities. The only things I miss are memes and funny cat pics, the sense of community in various groups but i have real world family and friends who provide that sense of community far more than anyone I've met online aside from a handful of close friends. Make the change yourself It's far far easier than you might think! Thanks Doc for this one, love the show🙏

[@milesralls7972]

Sounds great and all but every time I try I keep KZbin and just replace the other social medias with more time spent on KZbin, I can spend 10+ hours a day on KZbin no problem.

[@pickupwisdom13]

That’s awesome

[@anynimus1617]

Boredom is absolutely key to healthy brain development in children, and it is an important tool to adults as well. My husband never understood why I let the kids be bored when they were little. Bored kids quickly get creative to give their little brain the dopamine hit it wants. My kids had crafting materials at their disposal, they had a park where I let them range free, and they became creative little people. Even now, my adult son will start creating when bored. Usually cooking or baking! Win!!!

[@spa11199]

Yess!! I tell my kids when they say "I'm bored" or "it's boring" or "o don't know what to do", I say: "great, your brain is growing now! Boredom is really good for the brain". And when they ask further what they could do,I say " for whatever I propose, you'd say no or think it's not good enough so go figure out what you want to do". After few mins of dissatisfied face... They come up with the most ingenious activities & creativities 🎉🎉🎉

[@anynimus1617]

@@spa11199 i grew up in the early seventies and my parents only permitted me to watch 1-1.5 hours of television a week! Not that there was a lot to watch to begin with. We kids played outside, came up with games and stories, make believe, art sessions, theater productions, learned what plants were edible and went foraging, and so on. Even when it was raining, there were always things to do like crafts, voraciously reading books, or going on walks in wellies and rain coats pretending to be an intrepid explorer on an expedition. You're doing it right! Creativity is like a muscle and exercising it frequently will yield marvelous outcomes.

[@chrismaxwell1624]

i crave boredom, so much always going on.

[@hali6260]

I love how this episode goes back and forth between the two, and they are both getting information from each other. It's nice

[@andrewconnor4429]

Jon haidt, his book the happiness hypothesis, is one of the greatest books of all time. I have read a lot a lot a lot of books on mental health. I reread his book recently and it smokes the crap out of 99.9 percent of any book on mental health. The guy is an absolute genius. Has no peers... This man.... Beyond hardcore

[@IamGodsgirl139]

“Shame makes us want to disappear” 💯truth.

[@sreehari.p8116]

Andrew huberman ❌❌ Andrew Superman ✔️✔️

[@ZakariaMajilan]

😂😂

[@dosadnizub]

More like Andrew Uberman :-)

[@connormatthews522]

Andy Ubermensch

[@BoyProdigyBaby]

I am an addict, and first step to my recovery was deleting my all social media profiles like facebook, instagram etc. I had more time and space in my life to think about myself and my addiction. Still off social media, sober for almost a year now.

[@kylehendrix1455]

Great work. Happy for you! Keep it going.

[@BoyProdigyBaby]

@@kylehendrix1455 Thank You for kind words. Have a nice day!

[@carriefu458]

This is fascinating to me as a parent and as a high school chemistry teacher!!! 🤓 01:21:15 Puberty & Sensitive Periods, Culture & Identity 01:23:55 Brain Development & Puberty; Identity; Social Media, Learning & Reward I have so many students who think they have anxiety and/or ADHD... 😳 We are fighting for a cell-phone free environment, and we need all the support that we can get, i.e. from science, parents, teachers, and admin!!! Love what Dr. Haidt said about norm vs law and the rules on: 1. No smart phone until 14 2. No social media until 16

[@mytube785]

Dr. Haidt cannot be any more gracious to Dr. Huberman: “I’m a long time listener and I developed many good habits because of you. “ 😂😂

[@sandragee2864]

I seem to remember Dr. Anna Lemke saying that addiction narrows the things that you find interest in. And then, even that narrow area of interest no longer gives you pleasure. I think a Modern Day Lent practice should be a 40 day fast from social media and email.

[@nicoleschmidt2746]

I just listened to the Dr. Haidt podcast and have ordered the Anxious Generation. I am a HS Principal at The American International School of Johannesburg and have shared this widely so we can focus on collective action. Thank you.

[@fosterfoster1218]

Huberman's description of the dopamine/prolactin cycle was remarkably clear and informative.

[@SB0780]

Fantastic episode. As someone who works in the film industry, we’ve seen more algorithmic and spreadsheet based storytelling. Also storytelling with identity politics driven agendas. The streaming platforms themselves perpetuate the same kind of content for the user so audiences are no longer exposed or interested in a diverse range of genres. Also, with the loss of appointment based set time slot television, we’ve lost our collective experience of consuming and sharing storytelling, both in the theaters and at home. No one is going to work or school anymore saying, “did you see last night’s episode of…”. Studios have to also acknowledge that attention spans have eroded, gone are long fancy opening title sequences with theme music, people look at storytelling as a distraction and equate its value to a thumbnail on the TV screen. Young people simply don’t look at movies as an adventure anymore or a collective experience. Storytelling is an important part of our culture and collective experience, has been in even indigenous communities for hundreds of years, and I equate smart phones, social media and streaming platforms to the slow demise of our interest and shared experience of storytelling. I don’t think it’ll ever turn around at this point.

[@Paul-th9vr]

Kids shouldn’t be allowed to spend a good portion of their day on social media. It’s full of wrong information that negatively affects their mental health. They should be outdoors with their friends and fellow students playing games like soccer, baseball, football or rugby. There should be more emphasis on social interaction between the kids and less time on social media. Social media is full of toxic ideologies that attack the values of the countries that they live in.

[@nevergiveup5939]

Why are we here in this life? Why do we die? What will happen to us after death?

[@Leo-mr1qz]

"You quickly find out who you are by who you are not." So very true❣️

[@COTEZ_]

I love when guests come on and they seem genuinely intrigued about Huberman's knowledge in a certain field! Great episode!

[@casalazar10]

I feel like so much of life has turned into observing rather than doing because of phone and media use. 49:28

[@jackm.1628]

Dr. Huberman, could you do an episode on the best learning strategies? Like to how interleave properly, the best strategy to learn from a textbook, etc.

[@firstclassspark85]

I'm so glad this conversation included action steps to guide parents and communities through the transition away from smart phones and social media for kids. I highly recommend it for adults too. Removing social media from my life (aside from commenting on the occasional YT vid) a few years back was a really healthy decision for me. It was only scary for the first few days and then the payoff outweighed any fear of missing out that may have lingered. Gaining the time back helped me become more creative and reflective, and increased my attention span. It also helped me to foster deeper connections with important people in my life, instead of just hitting 'like' on their ig posts. Thanks for another gem!

[@happynjoyousnfree]

42:50 excellent explanation of the dopamine pathways. As an addictions counselor, I have developed my own personal theory that the reason that people who are addicted to a variety of things engage in behaviors that they would otherwise find morally objectionable i s because their minds have conflated The addictive behavior or substance with something they need to survive. Starving people will do terrible things. People in active addiction will also do terrible things. Furthermore whenever someone who has developed an addiction gets into a weakened state, the craving for their substance or behavior seems to return regardless of how long they have abstained from it.

[@stephanieyoung7888]

Very important episode. Thank you! I have four adult sons in their 20s. How I wish I had known this! Passing it on to them and others. They see what their phones have done to them. We are now all working to wisely order our souls.

[@michaelfuller4418]

It is so important that this message goes out to as many people as possible! We can’t have another lost and isolated generation.

[@KairosDBT]

They are two of my favorite guys in dialog with one another! Fabulous.

[@BonScottCox]

Such a fantastic episode. As a parent of teens, this is exactly what I've been waiting to hear about. Thank you for this episode. 🙌🏻

[@heydude696969]

Dr. Haidt is a breath of fresh air to listen to on the smartphone problem.

[@traviskwiatkowski8382]

Would really love to see an episode about Borderline personality disorder. Love everything about this podcast, I watch every episode and feel so informed and it has changed my life in many positive ways. Thank you .

[@DanielleMcIntyre-nv7xo]

Canadian here and mother to a teenage boy. Ontario is introducing a suite of measures that will crack down on cellphone use and vaping in schools. I 100% stand by this. Great episode!!

[@KimberlyTaylor-nu5cp]

The part about teen camps is so HUGE!! I have always wanted to start a teen camp because I went to them as a child and have been a counselor at a few and it has been sooo impactful. Thank You

[@user-xo4uv9ui7r]

You should invite this guest for the 2nd part; the topic is so vast, you probably haven’t discussed all the questions on your list

[@maliizzl]

Thank you so much for this episode! I was a teenager in 2010 and slid right into social media and all its downsides. This interview made me understand the origins of a lot of issues I deal with now and also gave me great tools to overcome phone addiction. Thanks! ❤

[@mamasue7376]

This was so fantastic sometimes I don’t make it to the end but this one was so powerful so informative so actionable I have a four-year-old grandson, a two year-old granddaughter, a newborn and one out in California and wow we love to play outside. We’re gonna keep doing it.

[@Chanell156]

I would simply LOVE if you did a podcast with Temple Grandin, as you and her are some of the people I look up to the most. I'm studying biology at university, I'm a visual thinker such as lovely Temple, and I'm so inspired by every one of your podcasts. I reckon a lot of people, such as myself, could gain a whole bunch from a conversation between the two of you.

[@jahoffm1]

That would be great!

[@jennypenny8159]

Well this is the most terrifying episode of a podcast I’ve ever listened to. My kids are tracking in the exact timeline as the phone based childhood.

[@bqpdobqpd]

1:23:35 moved and lived in the States from ages 10 to 13, came back, returned to the US as an exchange student in college (a year), came back, having worked for few different American companies in my home country to this day. Culturally, I feel I don’t fit into neither, but I don’t take it too pessimistically; simply thought that’s just me, regardless of my cross cultural experience, but I can’t live other lives so I don’t know🤷🏻‍♀️ Only that I’m slightly ashamed and/or feel lucky that I could genuinely believe that “I can always start a new life in the other country (that I’m not living in now)”. I’m ashamed because it sounds unhealthy to negate my current situation, day dreaming that things would be better “if only” I was in the other country, but feel lucky that the belief really supported me through the difficult times growing up from teens into early thirties, until I became content with self. I feel deep empathy and hopelessness for the young people growing up today😢 I hope I’d be useful to support.

[@Cathy-xi8cb]

TALK to your LITTLE kids about why your phone is not a toy. If it is, then fix your own issues first. Talk about how much you prefer speaking rather than messaging. You like being in-person. You like spending time in person. Be explicit.

[@Pimpjit85]

Unfortunately, logic and explanation is hardly a match for the billions of dollars spent on addicting people to screens. We can't even convince teens to exercise let alone stop using their phones. And kids? Goodluck.

[@pickupwisdom13]

Good point

[@MylotheMask]

I agree. And I also blame myself! after all ​I gave him the phone/playstation! It is a sign of the times but that doesn't make it right. It made my teenage son lazy I feel@@Pimpjit85

[@Ghost-gf4yd]

Whenever kids will see their peers using their phone as a toy they will do the same, i don’t think that a conversation would be effective to combat that

[@bbexx92]

Hey love your podcast and Dr. Haidt seems like he has a lot of important things to say. I’m halfway through the podcast and I just want to point out that a lot of this conversation is about boys and men and not about the girls. This is partially natural considering you both are men, however considering the facts originally stated at the start of the podcast, and the fact that girlhood is often treated as a mystery to be ignored instead of treated scientifically, I encourage you guys to speak up more about that particular subject. I do love the podcast, and thank you for your work.

[@marebear8997]

Thank you so much for bringing awareness to this 🙏

[@yadiraruda7062]

crazy when i mostly needed it, Thank You Andrew & Jonathan 🙏🏻

[@chrismetka5288]

Wow, what a wonderful discussion with two gifted communicators with distinct backgrounds. A pleasure to listen to the questions that they asked of each other and learn in the process. Important topics, great subject matter experts and no one unassuredly asking "you know?" or "right?" throughout the conversation. A delight to listen to and learn from!

[@arashf6094]

I was born in 2005 and i used to wish so badly just to have been born maybe 10 years earlier. Having social media as a teenager is pivotal to one’s social life, especially in puberty.

[@peripheralparadox4218]

I was the last generation to grow up without mobile phones. So grateful.

[@DivyenduKashyap]

It doesn't have to be. It can take some mental resolve and courage but you can stand out from the crowd and not participate in the madness for your own sake, or use it for specific, mindful purposes. Most people won't, but you can.

[@FL-ur3wg]

It was pushed upon you. It wasn't your fault.

[@peripheralparadox4218]

@@FL-ur3wg yeah that’s what Robin Williams would say.

[@FL-ur3wg]

@@peripheralparadox4218 Why would he say that?

[@nataliekacian4498]

Thanks so much, Andrew, for asking about camp, team sports, and music!!

[@lindaohanraha-hanrahan2817]

I’m looking forward to this. I’m a big fan of Dr. Haigt and his work. Most of my immediate family are teachers and have been for generations. I hear the stories of what’s going on now. It’s frightening. As an RN I’ve decided recently to look into research on AD use with children and teenagers since their introduction. I’ll keep you posted. Thanks again Andrew. PS I’d be interested to hear Rick’s thoughts on how different the music is now. There seems to be a different energy about it that’s strange to explain. Gen Zs experience is so different than even my Gen X contemporaries.

[@fibonatic6370]

Thank you Andrew for your work. Incredible density of high quality information and broad range of interesting guests. Greetings from Poland!

[@marvel7872]

Loved this podcast. I do agree as a girl that we are more "addicted" to social media. And the non ending cycle of scrolling through Instagram reels even after hours have past and I grow bored of seeing them I still keep going through them. I remember the time when social media especially Instagram wasn't that addictive. I believe that with implementing Instagram stories and reels that addiction to the app really kicked in. On another note> I really love listening to your podcast because I have learned a lot through it. So is there a possibility that you do a tour in Europe?

[@hrs2finishit]

Needed this POWERUL conversation.

[@AdoptableDogVideos]

I am so hopeful that change is coming. As a parent of a young child, I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of giving her a smart phone at 12, which has become normal in my community. I lived a free range childhood in one of the post-Soviet countries growing up in the 90s. So did my husband. I played outside with my friends at 6 years old and onward. The kids in those countries continue to enjoy unsupervised play outside to this day. I don’t see why we can’t bring this kind of childhood back. Parents unite!

[@DivyenduKashyap]

Coming from a small town, the loss of play-based childhood is all too apparent. I remember when I was a kid, there used to be days when there wasn't enough space in 4 different football fields across my town and the neighbouring ones. Today, if there is a single group playing in either one of them, it's unusual.

[@Skyla128]

Any of them*. Either is used when comparing two objects.

[@dasdwdw]

I just want to correct something Dr Jonathan says: girls are not less interested in computers and mechanics and all. They're just told from a young age that it's not a girl thing. I grew up with no brothers, a computer and a video game at home and today I'm a developer. I have many woman colleagues that have been through the same experience and that also ended up developers. Just wanted to point that out. I also have plenty of experience to talk about how unincentivized and even the push back we get just for being in the area, so it's not an easy thing to do. Putting all of this into biology and ignoring the role of culture is looking narrowly at the subject.

[@TheAmes625]

Same here! I'm a developer, one of my sisters is a developer, and another sister has an engineering degree. I also preferred hot wheels and Legos as a kid because I had the option. I don't think most girls are even given the option to play with non-girl toys, so why would they develop an interest in something they are not encouraged to do?

[@frederikhusegaard]

He is generalising: Girls are less interested in computers and mechanics. That doesnt mean that there arent any exceptions like you and that girls are less good at what men like in general or that culture has no impact on what girls or men like. But only women can give birth to a child, and knowledge about computers and mechanics is not the obvious choice if you want to be a nurturing and traditional feminine mother - and that is totally okay.

[@dasdwdw]

@@frederikhusegaard Saying there are less women in computer and mechanics is a fact. Saying women are less interested in computers and mechanics implies that they were given the choice to have an interest in it and they declined. Which is not what happens in general. They usually either don't get exposed to it or we get told it's not for us and we don't belong in these fields. We either don't get the chance to really try these out or we get pushed to give up. Blaming everything on biology discount these facts and is unreasonable. So it is assuming all women would want to be traditional mothers. It's totally ok if they want to, but they still can be mothers that are not traditional, mothers that are engineers and even not to be mothers at all. Just because we can do it biologically speaking, it doesn't mean we have to or that this needs to be our single purpose in life. Let's design a proper experiment that could prove bilology is all that matters in that sense, since we're all about science, experiments and proper data in this channel? Create a society where we're all exposed to the exact same things, where there's no bias on what you push on kids and there's no difference between genders except for biology where you get this level of disparity between genders in exact sciences and I'll be ok with someone saying "Women are not interested in computers and mechanics".

[@annaali947]

Great way to start Monday,informative and positive podcast. Yes, social media is addictive at any age.

[@julianwilkerson7744]

Fantastic and super critical episode. What a joy it would be to get these next generations back to playful and socially interactive childhoods. Enough social media and useless scrolling. More adventure and making core memories!

[@perlefisker]

Such an important message - from a super conversation. I'll certainly share this video, as it should be watched and its importance be understood as widely as possible. Thank you for making it.

[@happynjoyousnfree]

Around 1:37:00 the guest talks about "running the gauntlet" which ends with a video showing a person being dismembered alive. I had a client who was in a gang and exposed to a similar, real-life experience like that as a young boy, age 7. After all the violence he has committed in his life and been exposed to, he is still haunted by that first experience and talked about that more than anything else. The fact that children can be exposed to something like that via the internet is absolutely tragic.

[@patisserie1524]

Is so sad, my 12yp daughter did very bad when I gave her her first smartphone so i took it off and it took me a year to reset her. All this and now that she's in highschool they forced onto her to have a laptop to work with where there aren't any boundaries and I've catched her binging on KZbin every time she can. I feel so hopeless about her school doing this.

[@steeltoejam]

Mine has a flip phone, but school did the same thing. For me, I said that she can only use the laptop at school and she doesn't know the home wifi password. If she needs to do homework she has to do it on our common area desk computer.

[@Ghizlanh]

Thank you, Professor, for all the information you provided us with, and thanks to your guest as well❤❤❤

[@ew2645]

I find making my phone grayscale helps. Because it’s visually less interesting, I’m not on it as much.

[@amandaford2741]

Me too!

[@user-zn9ol5wr2r]

Somehow I always turn it off at some point and I forget to turn it on again

[@sburkie9]

Yes i have this set up before bedtime but i should start doing it more often lol

[@newday2637]

Such an awesome guest, his suggestions about social media and technology is so great. It’s so important to get children back outdoors playing and interacting . I feel social media and internet needs to be monitored even by adults . I think social media in excessive doses at any age , can have a negative affect on our lives. I think a great deal of the posts on social media are in competition.

[@craigdean6131]

Watched on my iPhone and shared on social media 🎉

[@sburkie9]

The beginning timeline of this episode is so interesting as someone born in 1997 (eldest gen Z) graduated high school right after this transitionary period in 2016. Makes sense that theres a sharp generation gap after me even to someone only 4.5 years younger than me like my step sister.

[@Iftodi.eth0101]

Thank you Andrew for this great information

[@Rons76]

The environment we grow up in or the environment that surrounds us plays a role in the shaping of our life.

[@luciavfrobinson]

My mom used to play Classical music for me and I grew up loving it. It is not a waste of time. Children love it 😊

[@ldieffen]

Hi Andrew, I've just finished a book about inner voices and the scientific explanation behind them which I found very interesting but a bit complicated in content. It would be really great if you could make it into an episode of the podcast. The way you explain things (especially the episode on dopamine, which I loved) is easy to understand. I have a lot of questions about this subject, which seems to me to be a current social issue. For example: Why do we hear positive things and negative things? How is this created in our brain? What techniques could help us work on our David Goggin-esque voice? Thanks in advance, Cheers

[@JanoDo]

what book have you read?

[@abbosabdullaev5166]

When I think about my children's future, I get really worried. Everything Dr.Haidt said is true. Can't be negligent these days...

[@norkacollazo7451]

Amazing conversation and podcast!!!👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@beaniebenny2908]

Awesome Podcast! This has been one of my favorites.

[@santodejesus3012]

Thanks so much Andrew 💗

[@Rawmel84]

Im very thankful that I was born in the 80s , played in the 90s by the time I had an iPhone was was over 21 already in 2007. By 2010 I knew everyone would have one . 2024 now I don’t think all of us should !

[@SirGalaEd]

FINALLY someone is bringing ip Marshall McLuhen! I studied his theories back in the late 1970s and have been quoting him ever since. Him and Alvin Toeffler. Thank you Dr. Haidt! Nice to know something I learned as a child is still useful.

[@jessicadora7213]

40:25 I was a horsey girl, had my own from ages 13-16. The caregiving and nurturing, brushing, grooming, feeding and just hanging out with my Shakoa were the best part. Riding for me was on trails in nature, not much ring work, jumping, etc. Just thought I would add my 2 cents to the "anecdata" (love this term!). I think you are spot on, Dr. AH...

[@LadyeStagsleapStudio]

Yes! People should not underestimate the incredible skills and personality-adjusting powers of working with horses. Horses can “take the edge off,” and make you think calmly and clearly about situations. Horses can also build assertiveness in a meaningful way.

[@tb8827]

​@@LadyeStagsleapStudioAre you kidding me? Some of the most mentally unstable people I know work(ed) with horses. It is by no means a panacea for mental health issues.

[@tb8827]

​@@LadyeStagsleapStudio Are you kidding me? Some of the most unstable people I know ride/ rode horseback. It is not a panacea for mental health issues.

[@MattTHX-io4tk]

I dated horsey women in 2003 and 2005 they are insurable bores I couldn't compete with the horses ..

[@jessicadora7213]

@@MattTHX-io4tk Don't worry Matt, I would not have dated you. Besides, I was only 13 - 16 y.o. What is the point of your reply? I was contributing to Dr. Huberman's anecdata. And don't worry, I wouldn't date you now, either. 💃

[@zaira3759]

This is message is encouraging. Much needed, thank you!

[@siddharthgager7403]

Im 21 im in university now , in my highschool days i feel much more alive those days I don't scrool in my highschool i mostly use my phone to watch Lecture 6-7 h school , 2h tution , 3h self study and 1h music and a 5-10min long comedy video of my favourite youtuber life was very simple Not it feels very hard now im struggling in my studies , whenever i study mutilple Thought came into my mind distracting me I carve to scroll reels , i dont feel like to watch any comedy video or Listen any music i just want to scroll till my eyes get tired and then i feel bad that i destroyed my another day Plzz pray for me im now working hard to achive my old mental state its difficult but it i will do it.

[@Hanna-fu1gb]

We have 4 kids and our oldest daughter is 12 and she is the only one without a phone in her class and she desperately wants one but we say no because we know the danger with this but its very difficult when everyone else has, we will give her a phone though where we can have contact etc..but she say she doesnt want to use it because its not new and like the others. Also this addiction and dopamin kicks is for all adults aswell, we dont interact with the kids as before and also that is what the kids are seeing so its for all of us, to take the phone away and actually do things together ❤

[@TOJImation]

The timing is really interesting. Thank you so much for that.

[@karenmcrobb3105]

Fabulous guest! Jawdropping information! More podcasts like this, please.

[@sylviatargon18]

Fantastic episode! Thank you. I passed this information along to my friends who are parents. :)

[@jenayam5897]

Such an excellent podcast! I listened on Spotify but came over here to give it a like & comment!

[@mlouw8218]

Thanks so much to both of you 😊🙏You should definitely interview Dr. Li!

[@GrannyGrace]

As an elder gen Z, we are definitely the most internet conscious parents. I have never posted a photo of my child online nor let them have access. I’m definitely waiting to give a smartphone to my children, possibly ever. Maybe the semester before they leave the home.

[@paulc83]

I'm 18 and I teach part-time and to put it int words that a calculus teacher at my school used (in his thick Russian accent), "The kids become more stupid each year." I met a 7th grader who couldn't do 5.5 divided by .1, then asked me, "where did the .1 go?" after I showed him why it was 55. I take their phones away and the 6/7th graders panic and make excuses that they NEED their phone. I eventually started looking more into this phone dependency more particularly the ability to learn, commit things to memory, and critically think and I just became more and more concerned for the next generation of teens.

[@gigifreefreed501]

Compelling and enlightening. Thank you, both!

[@stasik1317]

Hey Dr. Huberman! Loving the podcast and all the brain-boosting info, but I have to admit, your background is giving my neurons a workout! 😅 Every time I watch, it feels like my head’s doing its own version of spin class. Any chance we could dial down the visual excitement a notch? Keep up the amazing work! 🧠✨

[@user-qb2kg6fk5e]

Thank you doctors !

[@Unhinged_stoic]

Such a valuable conversation. Potentially one of the greatest I've heard so far.

[@brentonclark2103]

Thank you to you both for providing all of this information. I’ve sent it to my friends and family who have kids. I hope everyone no matter what age learn from this ✌🏼

[@happynjoyousnfree]

About 1:17:00 great info regarding how development is about work achieving reward.

[@zeshwonsos]

Great talk, many thanks to you both

[@janicelee6697]

Let’s implement the 4 recommendations now! I’m ready.

[@foodmomcoe6477]

Ohhh Excellent episode!!! Might you consider having Dr. Lisa Damour? Absolutely love learning about the teen brain and the huge update these young brains go thru. I find it astonishing that so many people have no clue what happens to the brain during this time from 9 to 25.