Angel Dust, Hazbin Hotel, and the humanity of sex workers

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[@CouncilofGeeks]

To respond to a few things I’m seeing brought up a lot in the comments (this list may have more entries in future, so if it's marked as "edited" that's why): 1) “Angel Dust and Valentino are outdated characters because they’re originally from the 1930s & 1970s respectively.” Two things about this: an in-universe is explanation for why a character or scene fits a problematic or harmful trope doesn’t fix the problem. But secondly, that’s kind of moot since this is information only attainable from material outside of the episodes themselves (either supplemental or stuff creators have said). Regardless of creator intent or knowledge, the show is the text and anything extra is not the text. 2) “Many SA survivors have said that the episode captured their experiences and made them feel seen.” As I said in the video, I never want to take away or diminish anyone’s lived experience. However, it’s important to remember that two things can be true. The episode can be good representation for SA survivors and bad representation for SWers. 3) "It's set in Hell! Of course it's unpleasant." See point one about how having narrative justification for depicting things a certain way doesn't fix the problems that arise from that depiction. Talking about it in these terms is to pretend the creators literally don't have control over the story and setting they themselves made up. Is it logical that porn work in hell would be nightmarish? Sure. But it was a choice of the creatives involved to set the piece in hell, depict a SWer, and to have their torment specifically tie to their status as a SWer as opposed to literally anything else. These are choices, and creatives are accountable for their choices. When I say "this is kind of a problem" and you say "but it makes sense to be like that," then we're just talking past each other because your point does nothing to address mine, and your point was never what I was talking about in the first place. Bonus: please keep in mind the intent of this video is not to take down a specific episode of a show I enjoy. It’s citing a recent and widely seen work to highlight an existing problem. Episode 4 of Hazbin Hotel is being cited as an example, not as a target.

[@DoktorSus]

1) They are obviously shown as bad characters. Valentino is very much shown as a villain in every way and Angel Dust is shown to be manipulated and not enjoy just fcking around too much. It's shown that Valentino sucks and his abuse is antagonised. Valentino is very obviously supposed to be a character outside of the 21th century. 2) SWers also said that it works well. Off the top of my head, the comment section from "Just Stop"'s video to the Angel Dust controversy (even though his critics are... meh) is full with people who did/do sw and approve of Angel Dust just as much. It's an interesting perspective, but I very much disagree.

[@brianapereira2694]

@@DoktorSus The point isn't that Hazbin has a problem. It's just that since it's currently mainstream, it's a good example to segue into the main topic. The topic of Vera's video is about representation of SW in media, not about criticizing a show.

[@maclytreen1798]

Also you litterally said at the begining of the video that you thought the episode was good and doing a good job. Everything after was just saying that there could be other ways to humanize sex workers. Thank you for this video. I've always been on the fence about sex work myself given that i'm a feminist who grew up thinking about the fact women should be always safe and that sex work was not compatible with that. I still believe there are instances where it's not (but also this is where we should as a society be a safe harbor for sex workers) & I still need to learn a lot more about this but it's interesting to hear about sex work from the perspective of someone in the industry. Thanks

[@TheAwkwardSacOfDucks]

I saw your analysis as skewed toward the experience of sex workers over the depictions being far more indicative of sex trafficking and slavery. Sex work is willing and involves consent and agency on all parties involved. I feel what was depicted in the episode was fundamentally *not* sex work, because Angel has no agency and no ability to give or withdraw consent. So you’re right in that it's a bad portrayal of Sex Work. Because it is not a portrayal of sex work at all. Two things can be true at once, but conflating sex work with sex trafficking is what gets people thinking those stereotypes about willing sex work. And it disallows victims of sex trafficking from seeing themselves or being able to free themselves from their situation and get the help they need. At its core, sex work is voluntary, it is consensual, the person working can stop whenever they want for whatever reason. They have agency and control over their situation. Sex trafficking and slavery is the wholesale removal of that agency and control. The victim cannot leave the situation easily, if at all, they face punishment or abuse, or legal ramifications. They are forcibly made to perform sex acts for the explicit profit of another person and they have little freedom or choice. Regardless of whether or not they initially began working under the impression of retaining freedom, they at some point have no choice or agency in the situation. Which of these better describes Angel's character?

[@Kuraimo]

@@TheAwkwardSacOfDucks my thoughts exactly! It’s not about sex work. It’s about Sexual abuse, trafficking, and slavery. If she’s never been through what Angel has been through that’s great and wonderful but that also means it’s not for her. Yes, sex work is depicted poorly in media but Angel dust isn’t a sex worker. He’s a slave. I have never viewed a piece of media that has portrayed the things I’ve been through better than ep 4 of hazbin hotel. The problem they’re talking about doesn’t have to do with sexual slavery. It’s a stretch to say that it does. The episode isn’t about portraying sex work in an accurate way. It’s about portraying sexual abuse and sexual slavery accurately. Something that is almost always fetishized in media.

[@SadyRamirez-vk8il]

Im gonna say it again, like all the comments: Being a sex worker is not a problem for Angel, Valentino is.

[@sylvianimates]

he luterakly sang about how he hates his job

[@SadyRamirez-vk8il]

@@sylvianimates You will hate anything if comes with a toxic trait... The toxicity is the problem.

[@sylvianimates]

@@SadyRamirez-vk8il he was forced into it. why are you just dismissing that he hates it i don't get what reasoning you'd have

[@twigthetroll9279]

​@@sylvianimates If you look at the actual lyrics of Poison, literally all of them are about Valentino specifically. Save maybe for the first three, which are about a situation that can be attributed to Valentino. None of the lines that actually get into the pain of his situation are about the inherent nature of his job regardless of Valentino, none of them imply that he doesn't want to be making porn at all, all of them are about how *Valentino* is poisonous and Angel is tied to *Valentino* and forced to give *Valentino* whatever he wants and THAT is destroying him.

[@twigthetroll9279]

@@sylvianimates As stated several times in this video, we don't know whether he was coerced into being a sex worker in the first place from the start or whether he chose to be a sex worker of his own free will and THEN somewhere along the way of that he ended up in this situation with Valentino.

[@johannesh.9955]

I always had the feeling with Angel Dust that he loves sex and pornography and is even proud of his performance, but his employer abuses him. I never had the feeling that he was being tricked into his job.

[@johannesh.9955]

I also noticed that pornography is not the sin of Angel Dusk. The hotel tries to free the sinners from their sin and they only ever talk about trying to get Angel to stop taking drugs. At no point is Angel Dusk advised to have less sex. Valentino is the bad guy but not the pornography.

[@cyberwolf_1013]

I get the same vibe.

[@tetitous]

I also think it's good to add that technically characters like Verosika are also sex workers in Helluva Boss, and her being annoying or humanized has more to do with her previous relationship with Blitz than her work. So if we happen to see more sex workers outside of Valentino's influence we might have a more diverse view on the topic

[@fourcatsandagarden]

but, the abusive employer is who is choosing what he gets to perform, whether he likes those performances or not. I hope that the end goal for his story is that he gets free from that contract and gets to choose his own performances going forward. which I feel like that IS the most likely end goal because that is a stratifying trajectory for him, but since it hasn't happened yet I'm not going to assume that's where things are going.

[@bnashee]

@@johannesh.9955 Oh yeah absolutely. Porn isn't Angel's sin, his sin is drugs. thats why his name is angel dust, its the reason he died. it never feels like theyre really demonizing sex work in itself or villainizing him for having sex

[@Innocua]

I've been in Angeldust's position. Quite literally, and just 10 years ago. In the US. It still happens. I have PTSD from it. I actually think Hazbin Hotel is making a larger narrative with him that's hopefully going to be sex worker positive overall.

[@brianapereira2694]

I can't wait to see where the show takes him. If his story gets more depth/exploration like in Helluva, then I'm super excited to see Angel's growth!

[@TalkingSoup]

i'm glad you're no longer in that position and hope you're doing better now

[@marocat4749]

Given how sexpositive the show is i am sure if he gets free he willdo something like it and way more healthy. Or if hemakes it to heaven,do him shows in heaven, there is shown horny in heaven.

[@lunabruce1804]

Yeah, considering he's very much written based on real people's experiences

[@Alex-ph5ir]

I'm sorry you went through that and so glad you're out of the situation (though I know that trauma is long term). Thank you for sharing your perspective -- I think it's really important. As someone who hasn't experienced sex work (just tried to listen to sex worker perspectives when I get the chance), it seems there is currently a tension between the "sex work is work" narrative and the narratives of those who are most marginalized/vulnerable and experience the bad side of it. I think the "sex work is work" message is important to a degree, but it can be used kinded of reductively? Like, globally, there is still an enormous problem with people (women and girls especially) being exploited/trafficked/coerced in sex work, in a way that is deeply tied to colonialism (look at the despicable sex tourism that happens with places in southeast Asia, for example). And in my country (Canada) there is an epidemic of Indigenous women and girls who are murdered either while doing survival sex work, or are trafficked into it and are missing never to be seen again. There are also disparities in porn and cam work in terms of how people are treated and how much autonomy they have, as you point out. I mean, even in the general entertainment industry (not porn), it was only a few years ago that MeToo happened and that Weinstein was exposed to the world! Clearly there is an ongoing problem with performers being abused, coerced, and exploited by people in positions of power over them, even putting the porn industry aside. I do agree there is a problem in general with how sex workers have been depicted in our media, and how even sympathetic portrayals can easily slip into trauma-porn territory or just be very flattening in terms of the humanity of the sex workers. But it also seems so important to not push out the stories of those in the most vulnerable positions or who experience the most harm, in favor of those whose experience of sex work is the most privileged or safe. It is a tricky issue of course. And the stories of sex workers with different experiences are all important. I'm grateful to you for sharing your experience, and to Vera for sharing hers.

[@brammurphy2450]

The Menu (2022) has a protagonist who is a sex worker. She isn't portrayed as tragic, her ennui with work is couched in capitalism and loosing artistic inspiration rather than trauma

[@Ruostetta]

Yes! I find it also very important to mention she belong under the ''final girl'' trope, which usually depicts characters that are ''sexually pure'' and punishing others who are sexually active. So having a sex worker as a final girl, because she is the only one belonging to a working class, really gives her as a person and her work the respect it deserves.

[@Jemmyleedoesart]

Loved that movie! Yes, and she’s the hero of the story too! ☺️

[@111imagine111]

People need to understand one thing. Angel is hypersexual, which is a very common response to SA He said it himself "It's NOT an act" , he doesn't like beeing like that, he didn't ask for it. Yes, he likes sex but abuse is different

[@Retsiger]

People need to understand that fr

[@purplishDRE3AMIEEEE]

As a hypersexual who kin’s Angeldust, I wouldnt add anything more. Ppl need to understand that a lot more then they do rn. Some friends of mine who watch hazbin hotel are constantly telling me that “Angel never liked sex”, but they don’t understand how hypersexuality works. It infuriates me.

[@TheDopekitty]

Yup

[@cyberwolf_1013]

I've always believed that Angel really loves the lifestyle of sex work, so long as he can do it on his terms. In the show he's proud of the video he shows-and-tells the group but Val is abusive and makes his afterlife well, Hell. I'm looking forward to seeing Angel grow so much more in future episodes.

[@tonberry2670]

His pride in the show and tell is very clearly portrayed as a joke.

[@HaunaMyKiki]

@@tonberry2670 So what? He's still proud of the work

[@sol848]

I took that more as Angel seeking for anything he can control in a bad situation. He may hate it, but if he tries to take pride in something (in this case his performance) at least then he can feel like he has agency where he really has none.

[@bobtheball5384]

@@tonberry2670 It's shown in a joking manner because it's a sex joke...

[@tonberry2670]

​​@@HaunaMyKiki It means that any attempts on him to make a positive spin on his sex work is written in a way that we're supposed to be looking down on or pity him for. If it's not portrayed as a joke, then it's portrayed as a coping strategy. His pride in his sex work is literally viewed and called out on as fake and a source of self-destructive behavior. There is nothing that indicates that Sex Work is being respected as real work in this show. Let's be real. Vivzie is a well connected millionaire whose entire show is littered with the tendencies of Tumblr fanfic writers. There is no reason to believe she has the maturity to write sex workers with the nuance their stories deserve. Nor that she would have any inclination to associate with those who would educate her on these topics.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

Our information on how Angel and Valentino signed their contract is vague but we do know that Angel sold his soul to Val in exchange for becoming a star at the Porn Studio. It's possible that Angel didn't know Val owned the Porn Studio and thought he'd be doing regular acting. However, the implication of what's been said is that Angel sold his soul to become a porn star who's work had the reach of Val's entertainment branch. So Angel knew he was getting into porn. He just didn't know the working environment that Valentino was going to throw him into.

[@CapriUni]

So, again, it sounds like a lot of capitalism...

[@honoramongscars649]

There was also some info (not apart of the show but in interviews) that Angel's family in hell (father and brother) run a lot of the drug trade over there like they used to on Earth back when they were alive. With Angel using sex/drugs in general as escapism for him before his death.

[@brianapereira2694]

I took it as Val being part of the media group that controls the narrative in Pentagram City. Like, if you wanna be a star or get anywhere, it'd be really hard to avoid the Vees. So it's more of a power imbalance that leads people to end up in Angel's shoes. Also, in episode 2, Val says that he "employ[s] every down-on-their-luck [person] this side of the city," so I never thought of "sex work looks bad here," and more that Val controls the work, and he is bad so make the work free or freer. But I also know that I have a limited scope of sex work, so take my view with a grain of salt.

[@tonberry2670]

Literally none of that matters

[@trishapellis]

@@tonberry2670 Ah, no, in a discussion about whether sex work is viewed and portrayed as "an abusive hell only ever forced on people through coercion or trickery" or as "a valid job that people choose to do", of course it's absolutely irrelevant whether Angel was tricked into doing sex work or if he chose for the sex work but he hadn't counted on the abusive environment. How could anyone think that the question of whether a sex worker willingly and knowingly chose for the job would matter to a conversation about sex workers and choice/coercion?

[@MeTalkPrettyOneDay]

While I definitely agree with your overall point, and really hope angel gets some continued nuance and depth -- I also really love the way they are handling the story they chose to tell. Angel clearly enjoys and takes pride in his sex work -- just not when it specifically involves Valentino. Furthermore, the later episodes continue to show that the unmasked version of Angel is still quippy and prone to cheesy sex jokes -- but also deeply caring and protective.

[@brianapereira2694]

And still very much likes sex. Heck, in episode 3, he brings the gang to a BDSM club without any direct tie or relation to Val. He does it because he actually likes it.

[@justinnutter9008]

I could be wrong about this but there's a scene in the same episode earlier on where Angel is showing them one of the films he made. In said scene, he seemed very proud, even calling it his best film. I took that as meaning that, even with his circumstances, he still takes pride in what he does Sees it as art/fun I saw that as a bit of a humanizing moment. It seems like he had an natural inclination towards sex work and would have been fine if he had a better boss 😅

[@marocat4749]

I mean in the prior addiction video,it seems he was really enthusiastic and naive going in and still like it despite the abuse. So yeah a not exploirätative just fun for him engaging later is probably happening if it has time?

[@blitz3391]

I am of the opinion that Angel signed that contract willingly at first. We know he was gay in his earthly life, or at least closeted. Once in hell, he saw a way to live it to the fullest and make bank of it, but didn't really know what he was getting into. In addition, let's not forget that Angel is just one of thousands of sex workers in Hell; i think his predicament is not that "because he's a sex worker he's abused and sad", but more "he chose to go with the wrong person".

[@RunawayTrain2502]

I'm 99% certain Angel was closeted. According to lore, he was an Italian-American mafioso in NYC in the 30's (wich is probably the reason for his main weapon being a Tommy Gun). And why the mob ran many gay bars (The Stonewall Inn in New York was a Mafia front at the time of the riot). But the Mafia also did McCarty-ism before it was cool and didn't want any gay goons, because it was thought they where easier to blackmail because of social stigma.

[@jinaiallegra1050]

What little we know story-wise (not counting the out-of-series lore) is that contracts are a big deal in hell. As Vera mentioned, Angel being a contracted actor is atypical of modern sex work, but it stands to reason that, since HH puts more emphasis on contracts than HVB (which, as an aside, also focuses more on imps than on demons) it could very well be the way sex work is typically handled in hell. That's not to say that every SW in hell is chained to a Valentino-like pimp, but that it happens disproportionally more often than in the living world because saints don't go to hell, neither in HH nor in HVB. Who knows what sex work in heaven looks like?

[@NikkiBudders]

And considering Valentino and the other Vees seem to own basically all TV and digital media in Pentagram city it's not unlikely that being contracted in the studio is a regular practice for anyone who wants to do this line of work. What's interesting to me is that the ownership and contract are ONLY valid while in the studio. Why would Valentino, who basically owns the digital porn industry in Pentagram City, only want a soul some of the time? AD is so interesting of a character, I'm excited for season 2. I want to see him kick Val's ass!

[@egg9495]

To be honest I really felt Angles story needed to be told. Obviously it's fictional but it echoes a lot of what happens in real life to many people on the adult industry. You only need to look at the Andrew Tate case to see how it could be a very very reasonable to people. It's absolutely fantastic that lots of people get freedom and liberation from sex work. I myself have dabbled in cam work. But I know my experience isn't the only experience. Lots of people have a far more traumatic experience than me

[@nexumie]

From my perspective, the show does a good job of not demonizing sex work, and I hope to see it subvert the tired tropes it started out with. I think there's signs that it will already. I never got the sense that the show was saying sex work is bad, even if it started out with a scenario that is outdated. I got the sense that Angel wanted to do SW from the get-go, but he signed his contract with Valentino and it became something completely different. I entirely get the vibe that Angel does enjoy the profession, but it's just he ended up in an abusive situation. I see the dynamic between the two as more of an abusive entanglement than strictly work-related, and I say that based on experience. And I feel like that's a fairly nuanced perspective that is actually lacking in media representation, it just didn't immediately jump out in its execution here. I know many people more active in SW than I am currently who have seen people go down that same road. Because unfortunately it's easy to be preyed upon when you have a genuine passion for it, but end up involved with a person trying to take advantage of people being new to SW.

[@jacqueshardin4601]

Another thing is that in this version of Hell, Overlords are sinners who amass power over the majority of sinners. They also tend to have a particular theme. The Vees represent modern media. Vox represents video technology, Velvette specializes in social media and is an influencer, and Valentino rules the adult film industry. Basically, Overlords are sinners at the top of the heap. So the portrayal of Valentino and Angel Dust's relationship does not feel out of place in this environment.

[@tonberry2670]

All of the people who are arguing the subtext of the show with the context of the show are completely missing the point. I have a LOT of friends who either do or have done sex work in their lives. I literally am close friends with someone who was nominated for an AVN award. Their stories are absolutely worthy of being heard. Even if it DOESN'T portray them as hapless victims. Sex workers are constantly denied a voice in laws and policy that directly impact their lives. They are constantly used as a stepping stone for all the hatefilled policies that politicians write. I'll be frank here. I do not think that Vivzie has the maturity to write Angel Dust as a sex positive story. Every single time Angel tries to describe any sort of positivity in regards to his sex work, it is portrayed as a joke or as a way to cope with the trauma. The narrative justification does not matter

[@voltijuice8576]

The whole notion of "demonizing" as a concept is a whole other can of worms to unpack, as it tries to universalize a value judgement that's very culturally specific. (ie WTF is a demon and how does that characterize anything)

[@brianapereira2694]

I think it also helps that Hazbin has a huge fanbase which also extends to Helluva Boss, the sister show. But the fans aren't the entire audience. Still, I feel like Angel would be besties with Fizzarolli and Asmodeus if he could leave the Pride Ring. And like with Fizzy, I really hope that Angel gets a bigger arc and we see more of him.

[@marocat4749]

There should be waymorelike that view. Andi count the show angel had as apromotion too. Wjere angel remisces about his past, his buddying relationship with cherry, and how he actually likes it. Him acting flamboyant, him beibg a diva, him being putting that uo to entertain people. He also was taken advwntage of dehumanizing with valentino. Valentinos behavour is the issue, he enjoys the sexwork part. Its pretty nuanced how the flirty diva part likes the sexwork. Itsjust the often exploitative industry thats the problem. Which is a lacking perspective. That said,it would be great him getting to break the contract with valentino and do his own thing. Because he wants to.

[@a.c.1839]

I obviously can't know in advance what Viv's plan for future seasons is, but I have a suspicion that the topic of purity culture / respectability politics (which all tie in with the issue of demonizing sex work imho) will be a major theme of future seasons. We know by the season finale that sinners CAN become angels and go to heaven, so now the natural question to ask is "do they NEED to?"

[@brianapereira2694]

And the biggest critics of Angel (and porn and sex work by extension) are Lute and Adam, and they're already depicted as assholes and bigots, so hopefully the whole show continues in the direction of normalizing sex work and such.

[@unlimon6382]

Well the hope to stop the extermination is literally reducing overpopulation in hell through other means. I'd like to think at least some need to redeem. The show has already made it clear there are people that can reject it, either at first or forever. Overpopulation is a problem in hell, though. A problem heaven probably doesn't have simply because hell came later and is technically symbolically underground while heaven is portrayed as ample. Sera is also clearly not going to risk it just by dropping the whole issue. At least not yet. Idk how this is such a common question when it's not even in the premise. Charlie is literally the only character that sees everyone as worthy of a second chance. I wouldn't really take that for granted, though. There are characters she really doesn't like. But overall she offers it to everyone as an ideal. The show, however, doesn't. It acknowledges that for some it's not an ideal, just a way to get out of some trouble. Others like Mimzy and Cherry straight up deny staying and overlords just don't want to either. Hell, Rosie can't because she's Hellborn. That's another thing: hellborn can't go to heaven as far as we know. I think the show has already answered it: some (not all) need to be redeemed to stop the exterminations. The details around how that will affect both heaven and hell is what needs to be developped, but that last question is literally already answered.

[@a.c.1839]

​@@unlimon6382personally I disagree with the idea that hell's overpopulation is a fact. In the real world, overpopulation is a eugenicist myth, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a product of heaven propaganda in the hellaverse (we literally never see concrete evidence of issues caused by overpopulation aside from Charlie stating that, and we know Charlie is unreliable given her lack of experience or knowledge of heaven's politics) In my opinion, the best direction for the show would be to make hell a better place to live where souls can freely choose to stay OR to move to heaven (and vice versa)

[@amethystimagination3332]

I do believe Angel enjoys sex and being a porn star, it’s the abuse and overworking from Val that he doesn’t like. I think a big part of his arc going forward will be reclaiming his work for himself

[@lindensalter6713]

My natural question is “How do they?” From the court case, not even the angels in that room know what gets someone into Heaven except for a huge maybe on Sera and I don’t think she knows either. Their focus on respectability might be completely unfounded or an arbitrary rule for Heaven/Hell. What exactly counts as “sin” and gets you sent to Hell? Is there a set of rules somewhere or is it something more like a vibe check? Is whatever it based on even fair or should it be heavy re-evaluated? For Angel’s story specifically: Does consensual sex and SW count as “sin”? That’s the thing that sucks about being this early on. We don’t know enough to know where the creatives are going and thinking to really say a lot of definitives about the show yet

[@FinntheSquire]

I feel like the reason they portrayed this is to allow for those with abusive lovers to relate as well. Not my personal experience, but I can see one of my friends very well in angel. Especially the lines about “Mabye if I destroy myself enough maybe he won’t want me anymore” I believe that it isn’t just about sex work, it’s about the underlying issue of abusive relationships

[@clyd1bon]

I think so too. My friend who was sent to the hospital by her abusive bf said that's what she connected too. And the feeling of being trapped and feeling like you have nowhere to go.

[@teddymasters1347]

I think it would be interesting to see in a future season him get free of Valinteno and reclaim his sex work. It would have to be handled well, but it could be interesting

[@marocat4749]

I hope,like it doesnt even need to be that but he can be enjoyable promiscous doing sonething like that or shows.

[@asthejayflies]

same i want him to be free of val and become an onlyfans girlie its what he deserves

[@anticarrrot]

Woukd he a good learning moment for Charlie too. And would be amazing if Emily was somehow there as well, and was supportive.

[@GhosttisCooll]

if theres going to be a hazbin and helluva boss crossover then i want Asmodius to beat the shit out of Val and then free Angel and offer him a job at Ozzies where he can do it freely (but thats very unlikely)

[@anticarrrot]

@GhosttisCooll Probably not, but I can imagine Charlie playing hardball with the Vees, and threatening to ask 'uncle Os' if he'd like to compete more directly with Valintino... I can see Val willing to do almost anything to avoid that.

[@TonksMoriarty]

Yup, had a very good idea what you were referring to on Twitter. I really, really, really hope that we see Angel post-Val continue his sex work on his own terms.

[@ronhoward121]

I assumed this would happen. If they actually stick to the "save the sex worker trope" that would be really tone deaf. The problem is the toxic boss and illegal contract.

[@brianapereira2694]

@@ronhoward121 I'm also glad that Vivzie announced in a recent stream that Angel wouldn't die. I figured he wouldn't 1) he's a main character, 2) she seems conscientious in Helluva Boss how to portray sex and sex workers, and 3) she avoids negative tropes and cliches or at least puts a fresh/alternate spin on them (like the Dead Hooker trope or the Victims Die trope, like in Game of Thrones). But it was still nice to hear her say that Angel Dust wouldn't die in the show.

[@ronhoward121]

@@brianapereira2694 But now that Angel knows he can't die, he can take incredible risks against his enemies! Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

[@brianapereira2694]

@@ronhoward121 Not necessarily. Absolute power reveals one's true character. Look at Charlie. She basically has absolute power, but she doesn't use it often.

[@marocat4749]

I assume if it gets there,they will, in a healthier way angel exploring that, and at least do shows.

[@StylusShade]

I love how sex is portrayed as a taboo thing that nobody should be trying to profit from, but companies will sexualize anyone (especially women) so much for profit that "sex sells" is a common quote.

[@GamerMage2k-kl4iq]

I thought I read this differently than it is

[@sortascouseace]

My reading of angel dust is that he was an openly gay man who lived and died in the 40's or 30's I think he got into sex work because this was the only place that accepted him for who he was. He spent his life as part of a mafia family so was buried in drugs like cocaine (angel dust) and got addicted after his death he was still addicted, and needed money so he made a deal with Valentino willingly only for that to backfire and trap him. I do think sex work and porn is what he wanted to do but because of the taboo and crime surrounding it back then thats when it became abuse

[@TheNitpickChick]

I appreciate your perspective on this, Vera. It’s not something I’ve really thought about in much depth before, and you make excellent points. This makes me really appreciate the difference in how Hazbin Hotel portrays sex work vs. how Helluva Boss portrays the same thing, but in a different area of Hell. The main differences are the people in charge, and by extension, the working environments they cultivate. In Hazbin Hotel, the ruler of the sex industry in the Pride Ring is Valentino, and he creates an environment rife with abuse and exploitation. He doesn’t care about the wellbeing of his workers, he only cares about himself and the power he wields, and there’s no oversight in place to keep him in check because he has a monopoly on the industry there. As an Overlord, he gets more powerful the more souls he owns, so he thrives through charm, manipulation, and shady dealings. That’s why the industry is so bad there; not because sex work, on its own, is inherently bad. And I feel like the show is decent at framing things that way; that it’s not the job itself that’s bad, it’s the unsafe working conditions and the lack of proper support. Contrast that with Helluva Boss’ depiction of sex work in the Lust Ring. The ruler there, Asmodeus, actually cares about his employees, and his people seem quite happy to work under him. He’s a big proponent for consent, and seems to want to make sure his employees have fun while also being safe at work. Asmodeus doesn’t own anyone’s contracted soul the way Valentino does. All of Asmodeus’ employees work for him voluntarily, and are able to quit at any time, should they wish to. It’s a genuinely healthy work environment that frames sex work as just another part of life, and a perfectly fine career to have, because the proper support systems are in place there. All this to say, I hope that in future seasons of Hazbin Hotel, we are able to see Angel get out of his awful contract with Valentino, and able to reclaim his power and sexuality in a healthy way. Maybe he can start working for himself, be self-employed, with the Hotel and Charlie backing him with proper protection and support. He does seem to genuinely enjoy sex, but mainly when it’s on his own terms, rather than being forced into scenes and situations that make him uncomfortable. Even if one would otherwise enjoy the work that they do, if your boss is abusive and/or your work environment is unsafe, then your job is going to suck, no matter what job industry you’re in, and you need to get out of it, if you can. ❤

[@chickadeestevenson5440]

I would love to see Asmodeus kick the shit out of Val (it will never happen, but if he was allowed to. He would)

[@jacqueshardin4601]

On the subject of death in the Hellaverse, sinners regenerate after a day when they die. But if killed by an angelic spear or any weapon crafted from the material of the spears, they die permanently. In old livestreams, basically what becomes of sinners after Exterminations is they become part of Hell's dark energy. In the background, you may notice eyes and teeth on the walls and furniture. That is what becomes of them. I am assuming that this happens to Hellborn demons like imps and succubi as well when they die. Anyway, this is why angelic steel from the spears is so important and dangerous. It is the only thing that can permanently kill sinners and, according to Helluva Boss, demon royalty.

[@tbeast151]

It wasnt shown in the show rhata all speculation. Supplementary materials like livestreams and panel comments dont count

[@jacqueshardin4601]

@tbeast151 Fair enough. However, in episode two, Velvette stated she could not wait for her best model to pull herself back together after Valentino killed said model. So there was that. I guess that is my big problem with Viv's writing. She does not always make it clear how the rules of the Hellaverse function in the actual shows themselves. I mean, she does drop little context clues now and then, but I do think this is something she should refine.

[@gingermaniac5484]

so... are the eyes on angels the eyes of perma dead people?

[@jacqueshardin4601]

@@gingermaniac5484 No, I don't think so. We are not sure how death works for angels and the denizens of Heaven at the moment.

[@gingermaniac5484]

@@jacqueshardin4601 oh that's a relief, i think?? intriguing

[@elenanojkovic2554]

I think you could probably bring up is Madame Tracy from Good Omens as a positive example? I mean, she seems to be self-employed and her job is not demonized by the narrative, and she doesn't seem bothered by it.

[@roolime]

I was also thinking about the porn workers in Love Actually. I think their names were Mia and John? Anyway they are awkward with each other socially and romanticly, but blasé about the work itself, the way most office workers are. They are there doing the work, but not scared or upset about it in anyway. It seems to just be a job for them like any other. The only shame I remember is they avoid the question of what they do for work, but I assumed that was more because there were a bunch of children around for the school play they were attending. Not sure if it's the representation Vera is looking for, but it's not the dead hooker or trauma tropes.

[@TalkingSoup]

sex work needs to be legal across the board and needs a robust countrywide union. lawyers, strike fund, the works. support and protection for ALL sex workers is a labor rights issue, and is an absolute must.

[@asthejayflies]

i read a megamind fanfic where a big part of his rise through the criminal underworld was through making allies of the city’s sex worker population by taking out one of the biggest pimps and giving them an antidote to their addiction that he created. all he asked for in return was intel, and when he took complete charge of the city’s criminal underworld he helped the sex workers set up their own union, distinct from the gangs, complete with healthcare and maternity leave

[@FlybyStardancer]

It’s interesting to get a sex worker’s perspective on this, thank you! My take on Angel’s character is that even with full agency and in a non-abusive situation, he would still do sex work. Of course some of that opinion is based on rumors of things that used to be canon, but may or may not still be canon (a lot of things that Vivienne said previously ended up changing as she and others worked on the story to bring it to life). ETA: For future seasons, I do hope we eventually see Angel break free of Val, but continue in sex work but now in control of his own life and work. ETA2: Now that I’ve seen more of the video, I’m going to need to sit with it. You bring up some points that I (as a non-sex worker) hadn’t thought about. As much as I love Angel and his story, but you’re right that we need a greater variety of sex worker experiences depicted in media.

[@roryaphunter]

this was my exact reaction.

[@sylvianimates]

did yall in the comments watch isbeing condo

[@DM-pb9jf]

Point of order but I'm pretty certain Valentino is a literal pimp, not just coded as one, in the canon prequel comic he gets upset at Angel missing shoot and makes him stand on a corner and spend the night servicing people until he has enough cash to make up for the money the shoot would have made. Its actually how Angel meets Charlie (she's driving by and offers to give him the money he needs if he'll listen to her pitch for her hotel) Otherwise you make some pretty good points about how the media deals with sex workers and the problems there in.

[@echoingvistas]

First of all, thank you *so much* for having a calm, adult conversation about this. I've seen so much discourse about how this is somehow fetishizing Angel's trauma when it's absolutely not. I value your input and your perspective, and I think your critic about this being a harmful depiction when it's one of the only depictions of sex work is definitely something that should be talked about. Sex work is work, and most people who get into it do so because they want to! (I also believe Angel is absolutely choosing to as well, he is a very sexual person and is proud of his work, the abuse from Val is just an unfortunate situation that happened later.) Have you ever seen Secret Diary of a Call Girl? I feel like that's an absolutely fantastic portrayal of sex work in a positive light, someone who choose to do it not out of desperation but because she wanted to and enjoys it. It was also based on the blogs and books of an actual London call girl.

[@harrietamidala1691]

And it stars Billie Piper in it. I actually saw the first two seasons, but I don’t think I saw the rest though.

[@chrisclark7285]

There's an ad for TikTok in the rotation right now with really happy, jaunty music that started playing immediately after Vera said "he's a sexual slave". I wasn't looking at the screen at the time, and, for a second, i thought it was some kind of really dark joke.

[@jasonjasso666]

I feel like you’re not considering the material we’re talking about here. The setting is Hell, so of course certain practices that in modern society are more, well, modern, it’s not fitting lore-wise to have a sinner run a positive sex organization there. Likewise, the creators of this show have indeed portrayed positive sex for sex reasons characters. Asmodeus from Helluva Boss is explicitly sex positive and very open about it. Yeah he’s the sin of lust, but the reason he’s not fucked up like Valentino is because he either followed Lucifer from Heaven to Hell or was born there, thus he’s just a dude and not a corrupt asshole like Val. Lastly, Husk doesn’t condemn Angel because he’s a pornstar who does drugs and stuff or allude to it as an issue, he’s just fed up with the facade he puts up in order to cope, as he implies he’s witnessed Angel’s true self while Angel’s drunk, and misses that aspect of his personality. If that isn’t someone humanizing a sex worker, I don’t know what is.

[@brianapereira2694]

I think Vera's point is that Hazbin is mainstream media, Helluva is not. So a casual viewer will only consider the mainstream and not go looking for other related media. And if that's the only side of Vivzie's work that you see, it's easy to see why Angel's story being the only form of sex work we see is a negative portrayal. Still gripping and well-told, but still "he's not happy in his work." Plus, not enough people have media literacy, so rather than seeing Angel be proud of his work and just hate his boss, they're gonna associate Angel being a porn star as "he has no other choice."

[@zerada00]

@@brianapereira2694 Angel had a choice. Yes he did do the clearly bad choice by selling his soul instead of doing his own thing in sex work because he did seem popular and maybe did it because he thought they liked him because of Valentino or something idk, but for where the show seems to be going with his character seems to be he wants to break out of the abuse and do his own thing instead because even behind the mask he had been putting up he is still very sexual persona which is complitely alright thing to be. We already had seen in episode 6(i think) where he stood up to Valentino already and didn't accept him using him again IN PUBLIC place because he wants to control his own sexuality and life how he sees fit instead of being a toy/tool to his abusive boss who literially owns his soul and life right now. We already can see Angel is wanting the control back yet Vera didn't talk about any of that even tho by their own words they were making this when 6 episodes had released and Angel had character growth moment what we could see by our own eyes. I feel like people are nit picking parts of character and analyzing those things instead of the whole package.

[@marocat4749]

​@@zerada00 It might be end with him putting shows and that, and does that because he likrs making people enjoy and attention. But learn to differenciate between acting and him being sensitive and vunerable as his self. At least i hope, but the show ispretty sex positove,it would be weird angel not keeping a thing there going.

[@zerada00]

@@marocat4749 I'm literially talking about episode 6 where Angel stands up for himself against Valentino in the club. I know when Angel is masking and when he isn't because I do masking myself irl. I don't need to learn to notice when he is acting and when he isn't. Learn to read maybe if we need to go this rude "learn to do x thing" route you chose.

[@avivastudios2311]

I found it so stupid that the sin of Lust turned out to be a lovey dovey weird rooster thing in a monogamous relationship.

[@sh4d0wfl4re]

I hope season 2 has Angel’s story focuses on removing the abuser from his desired workplace rather than removing Angel from the sex work. I hope the trauma of a bad boss gets separated from the sex work on his path to healing (redemption)

[@marocat4749]

Or an episode where they play with , oh i dont have to do it anymore, but then hell i wanz to. Healthier.

[@siyrean]

I want to disagree with you. I love the show and personally know a lot of SA victims who felt seen and heard with this episode and really appreciated the representation of the abusive relationship. That said, I've also trolled through a lot of conservative and religious folks discourse on the show, and one of the things they brought up as a positive, was the depiction of sex work and the evils of pr0n. So while me in my healthy sex bubble never saw the episode as something people could possibly take as representation of real life sex workers, I realize now that's not how others will twist it. I''m not sure where the middle ground is but maybe if HelluvaBoss became more mainstream the positive depictions of sex work in the Lust Ring will help balance it out? But lets face it, those people are set in their ways and are not going to change their views on sex based on a cartoon about Hell.

[@marocat4749]

With you. The loosers song really seems to angel and husk bonding over that and that. Also the addict song that still is based on angel thinking about how he got there. Hecwanted to do it thats clear. I would count the song as canon as him cherry, valentino, him being in the hotel, all is canon. He does drugs to cope.

[@stampede274]

Take sources outside the show with a grain of salt, but from creator statements and the (since removed) webcomics, Angel was originally a closeted mobster in 1940s new york. Most of his family also went to hell, so they continued their criminal enterprises post-mortem, but they kinda saw him as an embarrassment. Valentino really was a part of that sleazy 1970s sex industry when he died. And in the comic, Angel is trying to act in his capacity as a mobster for Valentino, but Valentino only wanted him for sex work. The dual sides (mobster/sex worker) are even reflected in his mismatched eyes. I think he most likely got tricked, thinking Valentino would accept both sides of him.

[@stampede274]

For my own perspective, I was briefly a sex worker for about a year from 2019-2020. I enjoyed the hell out of it, but the site I used never paid me and pivoted to nfts.

[@eneyavorodecky]

The eyes are an indicator that you sold your soul but because he sold it only part time, this is why it's not both eyes.

[@chickadeestevenson5440]

his sister showed up! It's a blink and you miss it but MOLLY IS THERE! I can't WAIT for her to meet Angel!

[@TubezThe1]

I definitely understand where you're coming from, but also I feel like that's also the easy take away that you can get from it if you're only looking at it that way. Yes, Angel is shown to have trauma from the situation with Val, but given that Angel always makes the sex jokes (even after episode 4), how he advocates bondage being a good bonding experience & that he never really indicates he doesn't like what he does, i think its safe to say he wasn't coerced into or is very much proud of it. Even in the beginning of that very same episode, it opens with Angel Dust showing everyone one of his best films, telling them he got an award for it. He's bragging about it & offended when Husk criticizes it. That doesn't sound like somebody that isn't proud of their work. Yes he is abused by Valentino & traumatized from it, that is unquestionable, but he is very proud of his work. The song Poison itself is specifically about Val and his Poison, not being a sex worker. "I know you're poison, you're feeding me poison." That 'you're' is Val. Had Angel had his way, he likely would be running his own studio, not quitting all together. Again, you're not wrong about how sex workers in general are depicted in media, I completely agree with that, but we're talking about this case specifically, that trauma is just one piece of a much larger puzzle that is this character.

[@brigade7678]

you worded it fantastic, tysm

[@ANIpJs]

The "dead hooker" trope has always, always, always bothered me. I grew up in the burbs outside of Detroit. I have a lot of friends who are varying degrees of sex workers, from strippers and OF models. To online personal ad escorts and porn actors. I went to school with sex workers, worked normie jobs with sex workers, I've personally dated 3 sex workers ( I'm not a creature of jealousy). And i hate hate hate that the media has exactly two rolls for Sex worker: the angelic hooker with a heart of gold, or a corpse. And being the first one never excludes the second. It's why in my own personal writing I tend to have characters who are sex workers, but are real people first. Hell in the graphic novel I've been writing, the secret lead and eventually hero of the story is a sex worker who the "protagonist" is in love with.

[@hinasakukimi]

ofc i much prefer SWers being portrayed as real people with plenty of nuances, but i'm personally not totally against the heart of gold trope. it started mainly as a response to SWers being demonized as unholy, sinful, evil, etc. of course, it's not exactly subversive anymore and i'll always roll my eyes when writers act as if they're so brave and original for doing it lol. but as long as SWers continue to be demonized irl i'll never be fully against media that gives us positive portrayals, even if they're relatively unrealistic. that said, you hit the nail on the head about it being very limiting, ESPECIALLY when it's so often mixed up with the "dead hooker" trope as you mentioned.

[@Undeadharpie]

Since the show started, I’ve interpreted the Addict video as opening with how Angel met Valentino: by already being into sex work. Poison also briefly shows Angel having what looks like enthusiastic, consensual sex with Valentino. I like this added layer to Angel’s position

[@crypt5129]

I took it as him being forced into it with Valentino because everything's meant to have happened in that one night, and at the end of the song Angel is seen having Valentino's pink saliva shit dripping from his mouth after being dragged off-screen by Valentino in the previous segment

[@brianapereira2694]

Considering Val's personality and what we know of him, his work, and his Overlord status, I don't think that was consensual sex with Angel. It read more like he was controlling Angel to get what he wanted from him.

[@marocat4749]

If it is, angel actually loves doing the work, till he sees valentino. He isnt forced there but its probably him reflecting, and if, he absolutely likes the work, he hates being used by valentino.

[@jacks.6243]

I don't think that's meant to be consensual or enthusiastic. It's pretty clear that Angel does not have a choice in what he does with Valentino (remember Angel JUMPED at the chance not to have to live with him anymore - that's the reason he's at the hotel), spending nights at the studio is not something he wants. It doesn't look to be particularly violent, but he's definitely being coerced. Considering his precarious position and line of work, he probably knows what Val wants to see and hear though ... hence the 'enthusiasm'.

[@emberd-l795]

I agree. I hope we get more Verosika in helluva boss. She is a character from Viv who seems to be pretty in control of herself and not uncomfortable with the sex work she does. But we haven't really seen enough of her for it to be great representation yet. So far, she's pretty much there just to enhance Blitzø's character. I think she could be a good character to explore positive depictions of sex work, someone doing it not because they have to, but instead because they want to. Because they enjoy it.

[@Yo-hw1fj]

Here in Brazil and lantin america I can tell you, that the experience Angel has with Valentino is the norm here when it comes to this type of thing. Maybe in America, its different like you sais but down here, its pretty much that.

[@JustaLuni]

I'm a part time NSFA VA and I agree whole hardheartedly. I get called derogatory names all the time but I do it to keep the lights on. My art is what matters and I do it because it makes me happy despite the vitriol thrown my way.

[@cmmosher8035]

I have to admit my first instinct was to argue that all the characters are broken and abused in someway (that's sorta the point of Loser Baby). This is something to think about and what the representation meant. Up until now i was seeing only as representation of SA and exploitation and not specifically sex work. Episode 4 was the first one that Husk and Angel became more well rounded characters. Its probably still my favourite episode. Not to let Vizipop or Hazbin Hotel off the hock but i do wonder if it would played better in a world with more well rounded depictions.

[@AnyaAngie]

Hi Vera, First off, I'm glad to know your name

[@KonekoY]

I think that represents more the big industries of porn, where they don't respect the wishs of their employees than the independent ones. I know that a great number of people that works as sex workers do or because they like or because it's another job. But the quantity of ex-porn stars that say that the big industries didn't respect their bondaries are big. A time ago I was one of the people that think sex work is bad, today I follow some and see how they like this. The problem is the break of bondaries of big industries and we see it not only in porn industry, but in any big industry (including animation industry).

[@leonineKelter]

I'm glad you reiterate that you do still enjoy the episode and think it tells a good story. A lot of people miss that these things can be nuanced, this episode can do good and bad thingsnin the same breath, and maybe instead of trying to label it as one or the other, discussion like this is so much more effective. This is a really important perspective i hadn't heard before, and while i was hesitant to watch it, it was very well put together! 💖

[@alysha2063]

I would like to see angel set free from val but continue to work. I feel like he started because he wanted to, but then got mixed up with val

[@allistairgeorge8965]

I saw some lady on youtube talk about this show and when she brought up episode 4 she was like, "I didn't come to watch this show for some furries make porn," obviously those aren't the exact words but something along those lines. On top of that she was making it seem like the entire show was all about that when in reality this only happened in one episode.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

Media literacy in shambles...

[@brianapereira2694]

I'd love to hear your take on the sex work presented in Helluva Boss. I was so used to how open and normalized it was in that show, that when Hazbin finally came out, I never thought of the consequences of Angel's story being mainstream and the other show being only on KZbin.

[@tahraethestoryteller6079]

I don’t believe it is one show’s job to change the game for how everyone views sex work Yes it would be could for HH or HB to show a sex worker enjoying their work and being treated well but they shouldn’t have to It’s always up to the person who wants to step forward to make things better for the people or thing they’re representing but it also boxes them in and forces them to be good 100% of the time We should be holding other people accountable to do their own research and open their own minds without relying on others to do that for them In a perfect world we can positive and negative stories about anything and not have it impact how we view the thing the story is being told but we don’t And it is true in order to change the game you have to play along. But at some point that also means making your own moves along the way and making them play your game

[@brigade7678]

Thats one of my biggest issues I see with people that critique HB & HH.... They always touch on how its not "breaking the mold" enough, that its doing things that other media does so its not being different enough to change things. I think a huge part of the show being focused on helping the lowest of the low is already very unique for just how low its lets those characters be. It shows therapy tricks and why they may work for certain (less traumatized) people while those same therapy 101 tricks may hurt traumatized, or still currently being victimized, people. I guess I just think its strange how most every critique is saying the show isn't doing enough, when so many shows we get do nothing but enforce terrible stereotypes and play the same old stories. Plus Angel Dust very much seems to enjoy his work! Just not being exploited and trapped and r*ped. It speaks to plenty of SA survivors AND sex workers. A lot of us are one in the same and in a story about trauma and healing how exactly would you tell this type of story of him wanting redemption but being so trapped by trauma and decisions he regrets...?? Its asking for his entire story to be different when so so many people identify with that story. Important to remember that Angel Dust was written with personal experience and by the creator, he is a vent character for at least part of the trauma he portrays. That certainly makes me want to listen to another SAS survivor's version of their story, however they choose to express it in fiction. They should not have to break the dang mold if the mold FITS their, and many other people's, experience! This video in particular follows some I see on HH that really boil down to someone not liking that a certain portrayal doesn't fit their own situation or POV, even if there is a big crowd saying it fits their story. The story not covering your specific version of SA/SW does not make it flawed in the slightest, and people in the comments have left several titles of media that DO cover it in ways more fitting to this reviewer's wants.

[@OdinsSage]

​@@brigade7678 this is beautifully written and I couldn't agree more.

[@dapperpotato4243]

I don't know if this is relavent, because it was in the piolot, but angel had a scene at the start where he told a client that he didn't want his boss to hear because it was outside of work and he would get in trouble, which kinda shows he is fine with sex work outside of his abusive situation.

[@AngelCakes1997]

I love Angel so much, I relate to him so much. He’s basically the only reason I’ve stuck with Hazbin since the Pilot. He’s such a brilliant character, so full of potential conflict and stories. I love Angel Dust, he’s probably my favourite character in fiction.

[@galaxionart9338]

Okay let’s clear things up: Angel Dust likes doing porn and sex in general. He was a mobster in life who was shamed for his attraction to men and died of an overdose. Valentino found him and not just employed him, he was sleeping with him. But Val ended up being incredibly abusive in their “relationship” and when it came to work but Angel wasn’t getting out of there. I thought this was made clear by the Addict music video on the vivziepop channel and prequel comic but apparently not or you weren’t aware of those. There’s a damn good reason Angel is portrayed as a victim: because he IS. He is in an abusive relationship with his boss and Val uses that to further hurt him. I get that representation of sex workers is piss poor but you don’t have the full context of the character and how he is portrayed. Honestly, it’s a step in the right direction and I really wish more people who talk about the show did the full homework before criticizing it. It’s free and it’s still out there. Sorry.

[@marocat4749]

And in the addict video he remiscents and its pretty clear he likes the secwork and show part,it gets bad with valentino.

[@JunjouShaneru]

Thank you! Yes, this video is missing so much context in regard to Angel’s story. He enjoys the work he does. He takes pride in it and his performance. It is like this video is only focused on the “Poison” scene and nothing else. The show did its homework. The person who made this video should have done so as well.

[@michace]

You would only know some of this context through outside sources. Angel being a mobster from the 40’s and not being accepted in his time is never mentioned in the show. That’s called poor writing.

[@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq]

@@michacevaggie was in hell because she killed her self that was vaggies life a couple years ago I think angels story changed

[@mittenstc]

Hey, I checked out the video, and I agree with a lot of your points, especially about the fact that the victim narrative is used to arrest and in many cases to deport sex workers. I do feel though that the show isn't really commenting on the life experiences of self employed sex workers, or that it is analagous to gateway narratives. When it comes to the actual background, Angel was a hardened gangster when entering hell, so its not the case of some regular person being tricked into sex work, the show is more about empathising with people who have made horrible mistakes, rather than making claims about streaming as a gateway to trafficking. The sex work he participates in is run by organised crime, as the Overlords are basically mob bosses. While I feel like that could still play into the sex work is horrible propaganda, I think its more meant to show that in an environment where exploitation is rife, people are forced to harden themselves to survive in that environment, and that people should empathise with those hardened people. Its a bit of a retort to people who victim blame convicts when something bad happens to them, because the show is heavily oriented around the idea that anyone can become their better self. In addition I think that its very much a critique about corporate sex work, which as we know from the scandal with Mia Khalifa, can get abusive. While many of these companies aren't evil mafia's like in Hazbin Hotel, I still think that we should consider that the situation of people under a contract can be very different from independent agents. I agree that having the sex work overlord being a litteral pimp, feels a bit out of touch in the context of a media empire abusing its sex workers. I'm not from the US, but in the city I live in (Developing Country, so prob very different from the USA) its pretty much just a known fact that many brothels are controlled by organised criminal organisations, so I think that I've seen the scarier more abusive side of sex work. Despite this, I find myself agreeing with you that its important that we have more portrayals that have independent non-traumatised sex workers, because we still need to show the breadth of human experiences, and it might help people interested in sex work to try the safer, self employed route. Either way, despite my nitpicks, great video :p

[@brigade7678]

but would having an independent non-traumatized sex worker make better sense for the topic that Angel Dust is supposed to tackle? He speaks to a shit ton of people's experiences and in particular comfort that we can still heal and form safe bonds and better our lives despite the hell we went through. I don't see why that story would be better with a independent sex worker with no sexual trauma?? Would that be a cool character? Sure. But it does not fit the story this show is clearly telling! That character would be...in hell just for doing sex work...? so their redemption would require they just stop doing sex work to go to heaven..? I don't follow why these are good points for this specific type of "healing journey" story.

[@mittenstc]

@@brigade7678 I'm not argueing for that story. I was argueing that the creator has the perspective of an independent sex worker and that the experience cannot be neatly mapped onto Angel, who's involved in industrial sex work, in an organisation mapped on organised crime. The stories focussed on independent sex workers would not be the same type of story as the one that Hazbin Hotel tells about Angel, and wouldn't even fit in the setting. My statement that we should have more stories focussed on independent sex workers are unrelated to my statements on Hazbin Hotel, and I'm argueing that portrayals of all types of sex work should exist.

[@SickTwistedQueen]

Thank you so much for this. I was so caught up in the fact that Angel Dust's story made me feel so seen in my lifelong experiences as an SA survivor (still can't even think about that episode without crying) and how it also made me finally seek an SA support group -- that I hadn't even thought about this. I wish the stigmatization of SWers wasn't part of Angel's narrative because I know a lot of people have found cathartic solace in it. As you said in your pinned comment, both can be true: it's helpful for abuse survivors but NOT for SWers, and those facts must be able to coexist.

[@AnakhaSilver]

Love how you completely ignore the fact that Angel is shown as just fine with the sex work in Poison right up until Valentine shoves his way into a scene. Hell, he's shown as PROUD of his work.

[@PerfectInzanity82]

Thank you for this perspective, I really mean it. I myself could only really speak on how well this portrayed long term abuse, no I don't have first hand experience with the romantic kind but I have closely supported and helped friends get out of that shit. From that perspective this was a really solid portrayal. It hadn't really occurred to me that this was the only way that sex workers gets humanized, that changes a lot. Again thank you.

[@mygetawayart]

i agree with the comments on this one. Angel wasn't coerced into signing and he really enjoys what he does. He hates Valentino, not his job.

[@Jackalopette]

This is such a good analysis, and I loved this episode. As a victim of SA I really connected with this episode, but you're totally right about the trope being overly played out and harmful. Unfortunately the show hasn't had enough time to develop it's large cast of characters so we're left with filling in a lot of the blanks ourselves.

[@Nizati]

Honestly it's a good point. I really hope that if they show AngelDust getting out of Valentino's control, he is shown continuing as a respected porn actor who does what he does on his own terms. And to give the show some extra credit - in the song "Loser" they are open about accepting their vices, and for Angel - it was sex. In countries that have legalized sexwork in all forms, it's just well proven that those women live much healthier lives. High-end brothels can get patrons tested ahead for sti's so that the workers stay free of contacting any of that nasty, and have access to healthcare coverage and sick days like any normal job (shout out to France).

[@Silverwind87]

I think the original backstory for Angel was that he was a sex worker in life who died from a drug overdose. I don't know if that was changed once the show got greenlit, like when they changed Charlie's surname from Magne to Morningstar.

[@crypt5129]

I thought he was a member of the mafia in life and became a sex worker in death

[@solitarychele]

I found your channel because you came up in my algorithm due to one of your videos about Doctor Who’s 60th. I stayed cause I’m a geek and I like what you have to say. . . But right now, you freaking amazed me! I’m glad you were brave enough to make this video. I’m going to seek out your other channels so I can find the discussion you had with some of your sex worker friends. I am not a sex worker right now, but I was about 20 years ago and I have friends who still are. I 100% agree with this video. Thank you.

[@paulinemissonnier6225]

I personally saw it as...idk, i had the feeling that Angel is honestly enjoying his job, it's more of the fact it's all ruined by Valentino...like, he seems mostly giddy when talking about work stuff in general, then it all turns bitter when it gets to the Vs studio and Val, because THAT he is forced to do...

[@TheAwkwardSacOfDucks]

I think his narrative is closer explained as a sex trafficking victim. Which is fundamentally different because the lack of agency

[@zenmastermtl]

Just to clarify. If you die in hell you will eventually reform. It's painful and really sucks, but death is not permanent. UNLESS you are killed by Angelic weapons, then your soul is destroyed and you are dead forever.

[@Nightengale90]

Great video! Sex work is work! I firmly believe that. Even though I don't do sex work, I have quite a few friends that do and fully support their choices. People should be safe to do so! Episode 4 and Angel Dust did make me fall in love with this show. Angel Dust reminds me of people and friends I've known who have suffered from trauma. I like how he's far from a perfect victim. He is chaotic and messy, but he is still a victim worthy of empathy. I hope he breaks free of Valentino and continues sex work because he does seem to love it. The sex work is totally fine. Valentino is the problem.

[@DragonFae16]

My takeaway when viewing the episode was not that Angel Dust was being abused because he's a sex worker, but because he had signed a contract with Valentino. We saw earlier a small glimpse of how Alastor can and does abuse Husk. This showed me that no matter what kind of work Angel was doing, by having signed a contract with an Overlord he would have been abused. There's also the fact that unlike in the human world, there's no indication that working outside the system is a viable option. Vox quite literally controls the entire television industry in hell and Val likely controls literally every aspect related to pornography. Being an independent contractor isn't a thing within Hell, unless it's in an area an Overlord hasn't claimed dominion in.

[@chickadeestevenson5440]

Vox sent up his "worst earner" too to calm down the "piss baby". So it seems he lets Val abuse his workers too.

[@Simply.Vantastic]

Can I say though that I LOVE that you DIDNT shit on "Loser, Baby"? So so many people trying to call it the "victim blaming song" is so frustrating!

[@TheJuringramen]

It also doesn't say that ALL sex workers happen this way. It's HIS story. That's what happened to HIM not everyone. Doesn't imply it happens to everyone even once. It's not saying or even hinting that it's the ONLY way sex work is. It's how it is for HIM.

[@fionatastic0.070]

That’s a fair point, but it’s overshadowed by the fact that most sex work stories in media are portrayed negatively.

[@TheJuringramen]

@@fionatastic0.070 that's the media's fault. Not this shows because it doesn't do the stereotype. It just tells his story. Can't blame a work of art because what the media has done. People are too sensitive these days.

[@angelav4401]

The argument that we shouldn't discuss the abusive aspects of sex work because it gives conservatives more firepower is honestly weak. Conservatives are going to be assholes no matter what we choose to discuss, and the fact is that abuse and addiction is rampant in the porn industry, and we need to talk about it in order to solve it. There isn't nearly enough attention drawn towards the issue in a way that's empathetic toward sex workers and their inner worlds, and this show manages that beautifully. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable seeing it portrayed but I am grateful that you are priveleged enough to have never had the misfortune to experience that aspect of the business, and I very much hope it remains that way.

[@theviewer6889]

It's "We shouldn't discuss ONLY this", not "we shouldn't discuss this".

[@angelav4401]

​@@theviewer6889 and the show doesn't "discuss ONLY this" because it has a more nuanced take on the circumstances that would lead to a sex worker ending up an addict in an abusive relationship instead of propping them up as a cautionary tale like this reviewer claims. Angel Dust is an empathetic and a good person who probably would have loved and embraced a life of sex work if he'd had the safety and support he needed. He's a person with inner demons caught up in shitty circumstances that are reflective of the struggles that some sex workers unfortunately can relate to, not just another "sinful prostitute" who ends up a corpse in a police procedural. Yeah, maybe it sucks that there's not a good and nice and ethical porn industry in Hell for the positive representation, but it's not like what's being represented is untrue or unworthy of discussion, and it's certainly more of a nuanced discussion than just "sex work bad."

[@crypt5129]

Commenting here to be notified of further discussion as I have nothing to add myself

[@Cosmitasiarts]

I don't think that she's saying not to talk about the abusive sides/instances of sex work at all, she repeatedly acknowledges the fact that abusive cases do indeed happen. There's a difference between talking about a subject and addressing it in real life, and a story written with overdone tropes. I think it's a fair observation to feel like those tropes are over represented and/or potentially contribute to harmful ideas that could give the wrong impression of the reality for a majority of sex workers. I think mentioning that the narrative may accidentally fall in line with conservative ideology is not to say that the show will directly give conservatives fire power or make them more sex negative either. Conservatives will already hate the show because it demonizes Heaven and has gay people and sex in it. It's worth mentioning because a young adult/teenager may still be easily susceptible to internalizing sex negative/anti-sex work ideas, and that age group is definitely the primary demographic of the show. Sometimes even people doing their best to be progressive accidentally fall into believing conservative ideas when the ideas are presented in a specific way.

[@angelav4401]

@@Cosmitasiarts How is Angel's very realistic and relatable abuse an "overdone trope" and not a subject equally worthy of exploration? For as many people as there are who look down on sex work and are unaware of how it can be positive and chosen willingly, there are just as many if not more people who are unable or unwilling to empathize with a sex worker who has been coerced and abused by their own employer. Maybe I'm an asshole for saying it, but I think the subsection of sex workers who face actual harm have a more dire need of accurate and empathetic representation, which is what the show accomplishes.

[@RedMagius]

I think Helluva Boss will be more up your alley.

[@sinimeg]

People tend to forget, on purpose or not, how powerful and empowering sex work can be, it can help to do some self-discovering, and that is very hard to start doing it because you also need to develop the skills to do something that is not cringe or plain bad. Like, is HARD, because you need to learn and explore and experiment, there’s no guidelines like in other jobs when they tell you “use this copy-paste to answer e-mails” or “click these buttons so the client can pay and repeat” (based on personal experience lol) People really underestimate sex workers, and it’s a shame Edit: I want to add that I thought of doing sex work because it draws my attention, but like I said, it’s so hard to start without any knowledge. Like, I don’t even know how to take some spicy pics of myself without looking bad or cringy lol But I’d really like to try sometime, because it seems like it could be fun (I don’t have the hopes of becoming good enough for it to pay my bills ever, would be nice tho, I’d prefer that than a more “conventional” job)

[@cassthemusicgal]

I don't really comment much, but I wanted to thank you for making this video. As someone who is very much outside of that industry and only knows about what goes on from people telling their stories online, it is very opening to hear your perspective on how it's depicted in popular media

[@notAshildr]

To be fair, Angel had just confessed he's letting himself get roofied on the regular. That's self-destructive. Saying that that's self-destructive is not pushing an agenda. That's just what that is.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

I never said say he wasn't actually self destructing.

[@retouriste]

Kinda clicked with an exhasperated “here we go again” vibe, but the video was actually really enlightening ! Thank you!

[@DOOMsword7]

Haven’t finished the video yet, but I think some salient points are being made for sure. Also I appreciate your candor about where your perspective comes from. All that said I have a gut feeling that sometimes our complaints about a show come from us wanting a show to be more flexible than the setting allows. Like, a show set in hell really has a lot of limitations on what it can show without making hell seem like it’s just earth with furries. A similar problem pops up with this show having a lack of PoC (Latine representation abounds but not much more than that). Like, is Husk Black? He’s a cat dude with wings lol. I’m not sure this is a show that CAN offer good PoC representation even if it wanted to.

[@harrietamidala1691]

Husk is played by Keith David, a black actor, so you could interpret him as black if you wish.

[@DOOMsword7]

@@harrietamidala1691 Keith David is Iconic and he brings so much soul to the character. He definitely played him Black. But Husk is also a cat with wings. I can imagine it’s hard for a black person to see themselves reflected back from a cat person. Which ties into what I’ve been saying: the kind of cartoon it is makes it hard for any character to reflect a real world culture or ethnicity at all. And do we want it to?

[@MercenaryX84]

I'm always interesting hearing different perspectives on various topics. I look forward to future videos that you'll release that talk about the sex worker's perspective and more positive representation in media. I'm also curious about seeing more Hazbin Hotel videos that dive into the even deeper topics that kinda go under the radars in terms of importance in soceity

[@madeofmeats]

I think your points are all very very valid but it’s also important to note something of Hazbin’s in universe lore. Valentino was a pimp in his human life and died in the 70’s, he’s pimp coded because he is a literal pimp from the height of pimp culture. This doesn’t detract from the fact that everything surrounding him can still be harmful to modern sex work culture, but the portrayal is less “this is what sex work is!!!” and moreso “This is what Valentino’s version of sex work is.”

[@CouncilofGeeks]

The lore you’re using to defend the show isn’t present in the show itself (at least not in the first 6 episodes, I’ll get to the new ones next weekend).

[@twokindsofovenfries32]

Supporting sex workers and being sex worker positive doesn't mean we can't be critical of the industry, and be aware of the experiences many have within it. Or we can be aware that in a capitalist society where the rule is make money or starve, sex work isn't always a choice made out of love, but necessity. Any company, be it one making explicit content or even a coffee shop, has many faults due to the power dynamics within it. It's just that making a coffee at work on a day you don't feel like it/don't want to, isn't going to traumatise you. Angel Dust's job does. Having a bad boss at an office doesn't take away your body autonomy in the same way. Saying Starbucks is an exploitative company doesn't mean the idea of coffee shops is awful, or that there aren't many people who love being a barista.

[@Thatscrazy_anyway]

I’m pretty certain that angel knew what kind of job he was going to have and Valentino is very open about what line of work he offers. What he doesn’t enjoy is the abuse from his boss. Being overworked and punishment being labeled as work. Also Val does take advantage of angel between scenes. (also to note that Val’s spit is like an euphoric drug used on Angel… so even drug abuse) Also I would like to point out that Val could have died back when pimps were in control… also Vox, Val, and Velvette control all electronics in hell… so if you wanna work in any social media work then it’s under the three V’s. It’s hell, not real life. It’s supposed to show how strong these overloads are

[@nutmegdoesstuff1339]

There is a bit of seemingly unrecognized character development back in episode 2 too, where he seems all "sure, it's not gonna work, but whatever lets me keep the free room", but then when Pentious shows up and starts getting praised by Charlie, he genuinely gets messed up by it, which looking back on after episode 4 makes me think the whole "it won't work" thing was just another instance of his masking.

[@kirameki]

I really loved the nuance in that episode that were easy to miss if you didn't pay attention. Its pretty clear that Angel was getting really upset that he kept getting cast in the roles of the bad guy opposite Pentious. Even if its not outright masking and he truly thinks at first changing isn't going to work or do any good, he also doesn't want to be cast as the bad guy or tossed aside for the new resident either. I think he was really enjoying Charlie's positive attitude and attention even though he pretended he didn't. Also i do think he really does want freedom from Val which he sees the hotel as the potential for. Even if its only during off hours and the redemption part doesnt work. Its become a safe space for him. Which i think is why he freaks out so badly when Charlie shows up to his work and is put in danger.

[@hieithefox]

If you look at Angel’s story and Valentino’s as a reflection of the negative side to Ozzie’s positive version of sex work Ozzie and his workers are in sex work but they are doing it for the joy of it Angel obviously takes pride in and enjoys his work minus Valentino and I hope he continues his sex work when free of Val later in the story because sex work isn’t the issue

[@JueTheRoux]

I'm only about 20 minutes in, so I'll eat my words if you address this later, but you keep saying that Angel is an outdated version of this type of work. I agree with you that media as a whole needs way more positive s** worker representation, but Hazbin takes place in hell, and the characters in question died in like 1930 and 1960 if I remember correctly. It makes sense that their version of s** work is outdated and evil, because the people are old and the setting is hell. If it were modern day earth I'd 100% agree that there should be different representation, but it's not.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Ok, people keep bringing up when Angel and Valentino died as validations of their depictions. And there’s two problems with this. The first is that this information is not contained within the show itself. The second is that giving narrative justification for a problem doesn’t make it not a problem anymore.

[@cristinafigueroatejera8649]

Amé este video, tenía un ligero conocimiento sobre el tema, pero escuchar una explicación de primera mano con alguien que está en la industria siempre me ayuda a entender la situación mejor que cualquier libro de estadísticas o noticias.

[@MaxMallard]

As others have pointed out the difference between Hazbin and Helluva's depiction of sex work, I'm holding out hope that some time in season 2 we'll see a crossover of characters through travel to other rings. The difference between Asmodeus and Val is the most telling, not just in variety of attitudes, but the way being a sinner vs hellborn affects one's capacity for power. While rulers are hellborn with no need for gathering souls for their power, sinners very much do need that and it shows through their actions. Pretty consistently the most moral characters have been powerful hellborn who didn't need to fight to survive. Not always, but often. Sinners have to work and fight harder, usually resorting to at best, morally grey methods. Angel's story may certainly be starting out from the common trope, but there's still time to turn things around. Of course by the way Hazbin paces itself, how Angel's story directs probably won't take that long to find out

[@abseessea3141]

Can i give slight context? Angel Dust was, When the Gay closeted son of a Mobster in NY in the 1940s, Valentino his pimp deid in the 1970s. Valantino is literally THE stereotype on peruse... If you want more BG info maybe cheek out Vivziepop (The Creators) Socals and or some besenses

[@CouncilofGeeks]

If information is vital to understanding the characters it should be in the show.

[@artificergunn3065]

I haven't seen it in a while so I don't know how it stands up. But there is a House M.D. episode with sex workers that kind of turned all of the usual tropes on their head. The sex workers were happy and mostly healthy except the singular sick sex worker. And the one who was sick as it turned out it was because he has an autoimmune disease (they say because of his clean living which...isn't how autoimmune diseases work but the spirit was there).

[@annabeinglazy5580]

I watched that one a while ago actually. It was a weird watch. Mostly because house's Team (i think Cameron specifically) Had such a weird Attitude towards them. Kept pushing the Sex workers and trying to get them to "admit" that they hated their Jobs and that their Relationship couldnt possibly Last. The couple refuted every single piece of BS thrown their way but by the end the Team Just Stuck to their original Attitude Like what the Sex workers Said didnt Matter. That Episode was probably way ahead of its time but maaaan was it weird to watch

[@VeeFerns]

well that's because Valentino is from that time, that's when he was on earth and died

[@CouncilofGeeks]

That’s a narrative justification for evoking him as a pimp, but having an in-universe reason for it doesn’t fix the problem. Thats even setting aside that this wasn’t established in the show proper (at least not in the first 6 episodes, I haven’t seen the two new ones yet) but instead in supplemental material and comments.

[@brianapereira2694]

@@CouncilofGeeks To add on, that's a big problem when the only confirmation is in outside sources. If something has to be confirmed or explained outside the show/book/film/whatever, it didn't do a good job telling the story. Lookin' at you, Joanne.

[@Lauren-si1fc]

​@@brianapereira2694I mean if he has the typical behaviour of pimps from that time and people can pick it up then it's not bad storytelling if it's confirmed

[@sylvianimates]

@@CouncilofGeeks what is the problem though

[@pbeardedl1201]

So the horror movie X centers around a group of people filming an adult film and while there is an air of "we do this we'll become stars." and the camera man says "I believe it's possible to make a good adult film." they are all into it and even have a pretty good talk about mid way through the movie (before the killing starts) about how fun and freeing the work is and while set in 1979 no one is forced or coerced into doing the film. The one bad is the MC does start the film doing hard drugs but it's not shown in a way that she needs to do it or is doing the film for drugs.

[@stephanoawesome4588]

So I think something that helps with the framing of how this is portrayed. Ozzie’s is a great episode on the subject of sex work is not what is being demonized here. It’s the people being used and abused in a job they used to love doing. Sex work is like anything else, but eventually if overworked and under stress the once loved job can become a nightmare. Asmodeus puts it perfectly, “Lust should be natural and enjoyed, not artificial or forced.” That is why he hates love potions! And he is the Demon Lord of Sex! This is why Ozzie needs to slap Valintino. 🤣

[@13djkeke]

Thank you for making this video. You made me see a perspective I hadn't even known existed and have genuinely made me think about things I never thought about before. Again, thank you

[@arleney56]

Thanks so much for your perspective! I liked the scenes where Angel specifically said he was proud of his work, and the implication that he enjoyed sex work and was happy to sign on with Valentino until Valentino revealed his true colors. But I wasn’t thinking enough about it in the wider context of other media and absolutely shitty real-world laws, and why those brief statements wouldn’t be enough. Generally, I didn’t realize until this video how much I was actually ignoring the sex work when I processed my feelings about it. I like it as a representation of abuse but I’ll think about the larger context next time. Thanks again!

[@area52ron]

Angel dust when he was alive was part of the mafia until he died from drug overdose from well Angel dust which is why he is a spider demon Angel dust was created by Vivzie when she was going through similar abuse which is also one of the reasons it took so long for this show to come out

[@motherwar3698]

i was also left with a similar idea after the episode. the storyline works for angel as a character and its interesting to see, but so far its not making any big statement about sex work nor its trying to. it would be cool to see the team go deeper than that in season 2 but for now, thats what we have.

[@OhGoodieGumdrops]

Hmm I think it’s because Angel Dust is in a popular position in the industry, Val is taking extra steps to make sure he stays and knows that he’s helpless. Because Angel probably could kill him with easy (he was in the mob in his time on earth) but he doesn’t because he’s afraid. (I don’t know all the power levels here but if enough people disagree, they could overwhelm the overlord). We don’t see Val do any of this abuse to every workers (of course, there are some ideas he does to the lowest earners but idk if that’s was just to calm him down/normal thing) and some might be content working with Val. But unfortunately it’s not forced on those characters who probably ok with the work. Not gotta lie, people love a tragic backstory or a character they can “save” which is why a lot of people relate to those types of stories. But it would be nice to see some stories that aren’t about the tragic.

[@jacks.6243]

It's kind of secondary to the actual point you're making, but: Angel is not "just" a Porn Star. I think In the show itself there are only hints of his prostitution (it's very explicit in the comic, but obviously not everyone who's seen the show has read that - though one thing I can think of in the show is that Angel mentions multiple times how much he 'costs'). However, we definitely see him performing live as well (Poll-dancing/stripping). And I do think that aspect does make things like Valentino's behavior less disconnected from reality. The sleazy porn producer may be an outdated idea, but Val is in fact also the owner of the club where Angel dances and his literal pimp. And since you even draw something of a clear line between - let's say live and produced sex work - in the video, it does seem like an important caveat that Angel has a leg in both worlds. Of course, the focus is still very much on pornography and therefore I don't think this impacts your arguments all that much, but as the show continues, these elements may well come more into play.

[@Invisiblegirl109]

As an CSA/SA survivor who is not in SW Angel’s story made me feel so seen, it was as if someone looked into my soul and created a character. The way he uses drugs and sex to get away from his own mind is very relatable. I’m very glad that they showed this to be his life because it shows the lives of so many survivors.

[@MarlenasFae]

I was so scared going into this, but, as per the usual, you exceeded my expectations, and have me cherishing you even more💖

[@kathryncarr547]

Hang on a minute, wasn't Charlie represented in the show as a powerful person trying to play saviour and having it backfire, exactly like the laws and attitudes you're describing?

[@socialist-strong]

Alcohol prohibition is a great case study of the failures of prohibition generally. When’s the last time you had to worry about alcohol trafficking? That would be prohibition, the time of Al Capone. Also a great parallel to drugs. When’s the last time you had to worry about homemade alcohol killing you? That’s right, also prohibition, when methanol poisoning from black market alcohol was not unheard of!

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Let’s not overdo the comparison, because people aren’t only trafficked for sex work. The highest percentage of work most trafficked people are pressed into is domestic (by most estimations) like cleaners and maids and housekeepers. So let’s not pretend trafficking would end, it’d just be a lot easier to fight if the work itself wasn’t a crime.

[@AnGawain]

I loved your taking in the matter. It's good to have a perspective from someone inside and who knows in first person what is talking about. Several years ago I watched a series called "Secret Diary of a Call Girl" that is about a woman that worlks in the industry but because she likes it and had no trauma that lead her to do it. Maybe you've already seen it, Billie Pipper is the main character. I have to admit that I felt wrecked watching the episode and cried with the song, I can't stand any abuse sexual or mental. Recently in my country: Spain we had a situation with one of the biggest porn producers here about being abusive, dangerous, forced some of female actors in to situations that they report latelty to the police and so. I also know that that is not the main dynamic in the industry here but happens still guys like Valentino. Again, loved your video. Thanks for educate us in this issues, Vera.

[@amberhancock2039]

What an interesting take on this episode. It really made me think about representation in a new way. We definitely need to broaden our understanding of and stories about this area. I think in this area I was thinking that Ozzie in Helluva Boss also fits into this conversation and he seems like the most well adjusted being we have seen in Hell so far. It provides an interesting contrast to Angel’s story potentially. But I admit I don’t know a lot about sex work myself so I might be off base.

[@TheJuringramen]

It isn't outdated at all. It's Hell and they're from the 30s. So it isn't outdated.

[@seanrobert593]

Hi, I would love to take a look at the OF documentary/ interview you made on your other channel. Could you please link the other channel or that video specifically?

[@jaffa4242]

ALSO Vera's nail polish is gorgeous