Angelic Knowledge and Choice (Aquinas 101)

[@ThomisticInstitute]

To watch other videos with Fr. Gregory, you can check out this playlist! → kzbin.info/aero/PL_kd4Kgq4tP8ncNdsa-ItSdGCR_-jzB7e

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

Well, GOD MADE THEM THAT WAY, with full future knowledge that His Design would lead to those angels failure. I do not see how any angel, person, or creature, is accountable since their whole life, existence, energies, DNA, and design is Fully from God, & God alone, including Lucifer. If any angel operates against God, it is because God made them that way. We tiny humans can make Robots that are unable to do 'wrong' or 'sin' because they are machines following program directly. Either God is Supreme, or our stories are inaccurate. I believe God IS supreme, & made the Cosmos & all in it according to His Plan. God KNOWS the future before it happens. If he didn't allow / permit their actions by His Design, he could simply Change their design. We Tiny humans do that with our tools & things. God likewise can change His creation as He pleases.

[@threej4pope]

"The Angels it seems were the first Pelagians." Haha, brilliant.

[@richardt.buryan832]

"The created will is not its own end. Therefore, the action of a created will cannot be self-justifying." versus Nietzsche.

[@coolmuso6108]

You'd be surprised to know how often the topic of fallen angels is brought up in discussions with atheists. Thanks for this incredibly helpful video! God Bless :)

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Gladly!

[@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro]

Can you explain me why?

[@me_1792]

​@@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro it's human nature to be curious in order to study for understanding (to imitate, avoid, develop, relate or create). its also a very interesting topic that's intellectually stimulating and engaging. And there's always the desire to know the hidden or forbidden. many reasons, either good or bad. An important thing I remember when studying or inquiring about anything is, "will me knowing the answer make me a better person or get me to heaven?" if not, then it's not worth knowing, a waste of time/effort

[@chissstardestroyer]

@@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro I think it is because this kind of creature is an alien being; and mankind is very fascinated by the idea of alien beings; be they benevolent or malevolent- humans are fascinated by that idea... and *this* kind is as alien as it gets compared to us: think of it: matter itself is alien to them.

[@gabriellebaalke6704]

This is complex stuff (and I need to watch this at least twice to take all of it in) but Fr. Gregory Pine makes it so engaging and compelling to watch. Thank you.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Cheers!

[@josephxavier8636]

Such beauty in the teaching. Thank you so much Father.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Happy to do it! Thanks for the encouragement!

[@jwm6314]

I hate my pride. It's the one part of my nature that scares me most. How can I choose better than a being with perfect knowledge of God? Without God's intervention I am afraid of what I will do when my time comes. I'm too brainwashed against the concepts of dependence and submission. Can only pray for God to do whatever needs to be done to me in order to bring me to Him. These videos are fantastic.

[@TroglodyteDiner]

The Devil's greatest trick was convincing us that he didn't exist -- Baudelaire. That quote epitomizes for me the Romantic reaction to hyper-rationalism of the Enlightenment Deists and their great clock-maker.

[@neochris2]

The videos about angels have clarified some elements about this faith that I failed to understand before. This channel is fantastic.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

We're so glad to hear it! May the Lord bless you!

[@richardt.buryan5820]

"THE ACTION OF A CREATED WILL CANNOT BE SELF-JUSTIFYING." THE COUNTER CLAIM IS THE MISTAKE EMBRACED BY OUR SOCIETY.

[@mjkelly9999]

St. John of Damascus, whom St. Thomas frequently quotes, in his "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith", says beyond knowledge, there is another reason angels cannot repent. It is on account of their incorporeal nature. Man was made innocent and mutable so he could mature, this is tied to his corporeal nature, a body. While Angels may gain knowledge, they are not maturing and they are incorporeal and can not repent. their decision was made with perfect maturity and immutable.

[@teresabaker-carl9668]

This has always been fascinating for me. Thank you for this presentation.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Our pleasure!

[@edinnm8212]

Another wonderful video! I'm a lifelong Catholic and continue to learn more and more about our faith with the help of your videos. God Bless all of you at the Thomistic Institute!

[@ThomisticInstitute]

We're delighted to hear it! Thanks for being a subscriber!

[@adelephilomenadonata3226]

I really appreciate this angel series. My daughter started life in Gravina in Puglia, a Dominican town under Saint Michael the Archangel. We are homeschooling to do pro-life arguments by supporting the medical roots of abortion to protest the classical & Islamic abuse of abortion under the goddess Partula in the Greco-roman pantheon. Just a artsy take on it...

[@vivatchristvsrex2663]

This was a great video, thanks for the explanation, God Bless.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

God bless you too!

[@supunfernando1912]

Thank you Fr for this wonderful video... this is a fascinating topic that marvelled me since I was small.. if angels are so intelligent why didn't they choose God; why cannot they change their minds and repent of their actions like we do.. im not saying I fully understood.. but this video definitely helped me to climb several steps up from my previous knowledge...

[@chrisvandermerwe7111]

I don't have a favorite priest, but Fr. Gregory is a first among equals to me. I can't get enough of his humor.

[@umatveg]

Fantastic! I Have One follow up question, how many of their original atributes did the fallen angels lose? How are they now different from the Holy Angels?

[@josephxavier8636]

God is His Intellect, His act of knowing and the Object of His knowledge, incredible!!!

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Cheers!

[@ob4161]

Those are the Persons of the Trinity. God (the Father) knows the idea of Himself (the Son) in virtue of His act of knowing (the Spirit).

[@marcusmagnificus1984]

Thank you Fr. Gregory! Would love it if you or any of your fellow priests in the institute can discuss in another video Satan, Lucifer and other names of demons mentioned in the sacred scripture. Some exorcists based on their experience in the ministry of spiritual liberation say that Lucifer is different from Satan, and demons do reveal their names during exorcism.

[@kristindreko1998]

Thank you for this video! May our Lord Jesus Christ bless you!

[@savedbygrace8337]

Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

[@davidrasch3082]

Knowing that angles do according to their nature is most comforting.

[@georgepimentel161]

If the fallen are ultimately going to be destroyed themselves, why do they persist in tempting man? Are they aware of their destiny? Do they even care? I think it possible that the fallen have a library with the entire works of man. Is mans legacy great enough that the fallen can't compare? Who's pride is greater?

[@nomnombr]

They hate us and want we to be destroyed also

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️Dear brother, your presupposition is wrong: Angels are like animal-like in their behavior and act instinctively with passions, and not conscious persons with transcendent knowledge as humans are. Angels don't have absolute free will as humans do. Why? Because only Man was endowed by the Father with the spark of the divine essence injected into his soul by the Holy Spirit of God in the breath of life, and that's exactly what gives us PERSONHOOD, and that what being in the image and likeness of God means. While Angels are like animals in the sense that they aren't persons, only possess a nature, therefore their knowledge and actions are instinctive, not transcendent nor expands, so they behave like innocent children in this sense, that they don't know right from wrong, hence can err, or be deceived by Satan (who also erred at first), in the case of the Nephiles. They can choose like animals do, but not freely and consciously like man. Therefore, Angels have no option to repent and correct their dids, so once they choose 1 thing it paints them as such forever. Now, despite Satan and his Nephiles having rebelled against God, nevertheless, they are still under His command, and in fact, Satan is the Father's servant as His Adversary, in order to test Man's faith, and He uses him for those tasks, and allows him to test man whenever He wills it, at the right moment which He alone chooses, and that is the reason why God the Father gave him the authority over the material world until salvation. The question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, and their forms, depending on their species/rank is a hybrid between human & animal ones, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, so the beloved Aquinas was incorrect on that issue as well. I hope that answers all your questions, Roman Catholic bro, and if you have more I would be glad to help. God bless🙏❤️

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

Thank you for this presentation on a complex topic!

[@aronrailey1116]

This is a GREAT series and video. Thanks!

[@ThomisticInstitute]

You're welcome! Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment. God bless.

[@unusedName1]

What is the relation between the demons and the devil? I know that the devil can not read our minds, but then, how we can indulge in a dangerous internal dialogue with him? How he induce temptations in our minds?. The same happens with the saints; How they know our mental worship towards them? Is God the One who facilitates such communication?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

The devil is the prince or leader of the demons. As concerns the relations between angelic creatures and man, St. Thomas wrote a good deal on it. Here's an question on the influence of the angels (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-111#FPQ111OUTP1) and a question on the assaults of the demons (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-114#FPQ114OUTP1). St. Thomas also entertains the question in the treatise on sin (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-iaiiae-q-80#FSQ80OUTP1).

[@unusedName1]

@@ThomisticInstitute thanks!

[@ThomisticInstitute]

@@unusedName1 Of course!

[@fbayoutube]

I have difficulties in understanding how the angels with all of their modes of understanding could fail to see the beauty of God and chose to be away from that beauty.

[@spaceanarchist1107]

There are human beings with a condition known as total aphantasia, complete absence of mental imagery, who never think in sensory images or even words, but only in pure unsymbolized knowing. If you ask them a question, they don't see or hear the answer in their head, they simply know it intuitively and instantaneously. For some people like this, their mind remains perfectly blank unless their attention is drawn to a specific idea. When focusing their attention on that idea, they have a direct, intuitive comprehension of it. Total aphants for only a small percentage of the human population, perhaps 1% or less, but they show some of the possible range of human variation. I'm curious as to whether this is similar to how Angels think and know. Perhaps people with aphantasia get a preview of what the afterlife and spiritual realm are like.

[@LibertysetsquareJack]

"The [fallen] angels, it seems, were the first Pelagieans." Lol that was an awesome insight.

[@MichaelPetek]

Angels are not disposed to acquire further knowledge. What about knowledge of human history as it unfolds?

[@ktMysticalRose]

Excellent video!

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Thanks Katie!

[@maryjohnstone4777]

A lovely presentation and most interesting,thank you.

[@lorenzophalaRSA]

I need to have my dictionary ready next time

[@patricpeters7911]

I have struggled to understand this as the full account of what we mean by "demon." How does this account arrive at a spirit that is disposed towards doing bad and actively intent on destroying God's will and harming human souls? How do we get from this explanation of a fallen angel to a spiritual creature that actively seeks to continue doing evil: demonic possession, temptation etc.? Does Aquinas explain this?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Patric, that's an excellent question. St. Thomas begins to entertain it in Summa Theologiae Ia Q. 114 (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-114#FPQ114OUTP1) . . . let us know if you have follow up questions!

[@williamjerome5836]

@@ThomisticInstitute I have read Q 114 but I don t see how it answers the question of demons not growing in knowledge if they predict the future. St Thomas merely says that they can't do real miracles. Incidentally I don't understand your citations of STh. You seem to cite "Ia" when the question is in Prima Pars. I thought "Ia" meant Prima Secundae Partis. What then is your citation of Prima Secundae Partis?

[@callums6570]

@@williamjerome5836 when thomists speak of Angels being created with all the knowledge they will ever have they are really speaking of all of the intelligible species that we use to understand things. We learn to understand the essence or nature of a dog through the senses. Angels are 'born' with the form of a dog inbuilt as it were. Thst is separate however from the contingent acts that a dog may do. An angel may not know whether a specific dog will growl or fart in the next five minutes with certainty. Though regardless of whether the dog growls or farts, in virtue of having a complete penetrating grasp of the nature of dog, though know every possible action that a dog may perform. Future contingent actions do not add new ideas to concepts to an angel. In fact, it follows from Aquinas account of angelic epistemology that an angel can only know what is happening in the world by using the intelligible species or forms it has been given by God. It cannot learn new species from anywhere else as it has no senses. It is in that sense that its knowledge does not grow

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

@@callums6570 Who do you think was wiser? Lucifer or Solomon? How does Solomon's wisdom compare with angels?

[@My56David]

Thank you for the insightful topic.

[@davidshaw8846]

Does this mean that in Aquinas' view that angels never learn new things or grow in any kind of knowledge? What about when Christ's return occurs, and that day comes, wherein before that day they didn't know what day it would be?

[@st.ignatiusantioch]

Same question I have

[@victorfeltes]

How much do angels and demons know of current events? Much or little? If such spirits do not grow in knowledge, do demons know our future now?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Excellent question! St. Thomas argues that God furnishes them with the knowledge they need (in the orders of both nature and grace) for their twofold vocation of the worship of God and the custody of man. So, in short, they know what God gives them to know, and that would would seem to include current events as they impinge upon their ministrations. St. Thomas also describes how one angel can illumine the intellect of another, so there is an additional source of knowledge. You can read about that here (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-107#FPQ107OUTP1). So, just because they don't have an intrinsic potency to further knowledge, doesn't mean that they can't "receive" knowledge from God or other angels.

[@williamjerome5836]

@@ThomisticInstitute Sorry I don't understand how this relates the the power of demons to predict the future as shown when fortune tellers correctly predict future events ,e.g., when Saul consults the witch of Edore to reach Samuel and a correct future prediction was made. It is a serious sin to consult fortune tellers because although most are frauds some have connections to diabolic powers who can predict the future. But if this is so, then demons grow in knowledge. Or have i got this wrong?

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

​@@williamjerome5836Wrong bro, your assumption is totally false and not in line with scripture. 1. The witch was a liar and deceiver as all witches and fortune tellers are and it wasn't Samuel, it was Satan or one of his evil spirits of the Nephiles that deceived Saul! 2. Demons don't know the future and all Angels have a fixed knowledge in the fixed portion willed to them by God

[@jasonfernandez1386]

Angels are created with all the knowledge they will ever have, but humans acquire knowledge over time. Do we continue acquiring knowledge after death?

[@ECONOMICOUTLOOK]

A spiritual soul has a Perfect knowledge since it has no body in it( matter). On the other hand a body where a soul resides is onlying aquiring knowledge through your senses that would pass into your brain. So an angle is more perfect being than a human being.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

​​@@ECONOMICOUTLOOKWrong. Read the holy Tertullianus, who taught us that the soul is invisible (like air) and immortal, yet it is CORPOREAL and functions as the prime organ of the body, the manager, the core, our blueprint/form, whereas our life spirit is it's operation given by the Holy Spirit, and it's other operation is the mind/intellect given by Christ the logos of the Creator - the Father Almighty

[@eilismoffatt7350]

Yes - we will have eternity to become one with God. That is His desire. We will never stop ‘becoming’. There is no stagnation in Heaven - this is my belief.

[@genekelly8467]

Since the angels are pure spirits, as Aquinas reasons, they cannot be subject to the deadly sins-except for one: wanting to be God. That would seem to indicate rebellion. But since they possess great knowledge, the evil ones know that they cannot be God. So it is confusing.

[@thevoideverwatching2723]

So what would be an example of Angel's thought pattern?

[@williambuysse5459]

Thank you. I believe that the early modern philosophers were the human analogues to the Pelagian fallen angels. I mean that Machiavelli, Bacon, Hobbes, and Descartes have largely eclipsed natures. Their actions continue today in a radical manner that most non-Catholics and Catholics do not seem to properly understand. Getting to Thomas more convincingly means understanding and getting away from modern radical philosophy. A return to pre-modern reason is necessary to understand modern reason. This needs to be done in a primarily philosophical manner and not Theological. Thomism is philosophical but from within a theological context that modern philosophy has rejected. Modern philosophy rejected human reason and nature first. God was rejected by extension.

[@docpi90]

Do angels have free will that enable them to choose self than God?

[@dragomirzarev9155]

No, they don't. Very good question. Only humans have free will.

[@ianhyde2761]

My only question is that, how can angels ratify their conditional relationship with God in the second moment of their creation, after the first moment in which they already found themselves in a state of grace, if they are not embodied and so presumably do not experience causality which seems to be a function of spacetime? Finding themselves in a state of grace makes sense to me, because God is the First Cause behind their creation (and the creation of all things), but I don't see how a purely spiritual being can even experience a "second moment." If someone has a good answer, please let me know!

[@simplyrobo7948]

Relying too much on your human brain understanding, rather than faith But if you want answers look at Saint Mary Agreda's book on The Mystical City of God I believe this was answered there :)

[@chrislee8732]

5:46 "Perhaps the fallen angels chose to love God by their own power and not by the power of God." Don't understand.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

The idea here is that in order to love God as God wills, it takes grace. Think here specifically about the grace of charity, by which man loves God with God's own love. St. Thomas speculates that the angels may have balked at the idea of loving God with God's own love, choosing instead to love him with a love proper to their own nature. In effect, it is a rejection of the gratuity of the supernatural order. Ultimately, there is only one way to have God: as a gift. Perhaps, St. Thomas reasons, the fallen angels couldn't abide the thought.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Chime back in if that's still not clear.

[@thecreatoristhetruth5623]

The fallen angels was and is about rebellion, not love. THE CREATOR BLESS

[@BRXify]

@@ThomisticInstitute I don't understand one thing - isn't it proper to angels (by their nature) to love God with God's own love? It seems to me that to suggest otherwise would mean that angels should strive for something which is not in their nature, but isn't nature "that which a being should strive for"? Or did You mean something else by "nature"?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

@@BRXify Aleksa, it is in accord with the angelic nature to love God with God's own love, but it remains supernatural. That is to say, there is nothing within the angels proper resources (when left to itself), which equips it for this act, although when it is present it seems to be more natural to the angel than nature itself. The angels have what later Thomists called an obediential potency to the life of grace, but it is still something added (albeit, eminently suited to) their nature. So, when we say that they tried to love God with a love proper to their own nature, this entails a rejection of the grace that God gave them upon creation and a definitive turn to themselves and from God.

[@bestill7698]

Are angels still being created today, or have all of them already been created?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

St. Thomas teaches that all angels are created at the dawn of the universe. God is not currently creating more and more new angels.

[@bestill7698]

@@ThomisticInstitute Thank you again.

[@DanielFernandez-jv7jx]

We end in a question, which means we have failed to really answer the original one. In pondering these matters, it seems that we give too much weight to the thinking of St. Thomas. IMHO, there is a lot of metaphysical over reaching here, most likely starting with non-scriptural sources for knowledge about angels, such St. Dionysius (even assuming that these have been distinguished from the pseudo-epigraphs). The question remains for me, how could a creature who beholds the Face of God, with everything that that implies, choose anything other than God? To behold the Divine Vision with the degree of clarity, fullness and perfection that angles must have, implies existing in a state of complete and continuous ravishment and fulfillment. No?

[@gobie1969]

How do Angels have a second moment to sin?

[@josephmillraney1061]

So angels are created with 'free will'?

[@ThomisticInstitute]

They are indeed!

[@josephmillraney1061]

@@ThomisticInstitute That is certainly a revelation for me. I've never thought of them as having 'free will'.

[@simplyrobo7948]

​@josephmillraney1061 you asked "created with"

[@bernardbuela420]

Reprimand me if my gist of this is short: Angels are created beings gifted with imbued knowledge of God at their instance of existence and thus have greater accountability than man when they defy God. In this sense, they're doomed and have no means of salvation. In contrast, man has salvation because his ignorance which gives in to concupiscence, more often than not, can only be informed by the grace of divine revelation. His salvation is ensured by Redemption but requires his free volitional cooperation. Due to original sin, man needs Christ's free-flowing grace through the Church which directs him at the end of age to the Beatific Vision of God's Glory. Angels somehow have this privileged access to this Beatific Vision so their culpability is beyond salvation. Am I right?

[@dragomirzarev9155]

You are totally wrong, sorry.

[@themetaphysicalrev99]

Ego= erasing G-d out Pride & Envy stem from the ego. To be boastful vs humble is erasing out G-d, being in victim mode by belittling oneself or by being jealous of others is also erasing G-d out; being made in the image of G-d one should freely choose to be in alignment with the will of G-d whom made us in their image. Belittling yourself, being in victim or pity mode is to act less than a child of G-d.

[@simplyrobo7948]

Friend, it is okay to say God

[@olivur_1459]

What is going on with the upper left-hand side of his forehead?

[@JakalTalk]

I assumed he recently engaged in, according to Terry Pratchet, "Philosophy"

[@SevenDeMagnus]

So sad, we won't be enduring the valley of the shadow of death if they passed the test. God bless.

[@oboemadness1995]

I know it's not cannon, but it might be worthwhile to reflect on the sins of the angels in Enoch.

[@justindominigayo6473]

and that is why St. Thomas is called Angelic Doctor.

[@yousufnazir8141]

Higher knowledge is power , spirit, authority , principalities , kingdom , dominion , justice and peace the examples are the celestial bodies 1.St.michael , 2.St.gabriel 3.St.raphael and the angle y the lord with glory

[@chissstardestroyer]

So what's the trait that tends man to the rejection of great things inordinately; it cannot be pride, but it is far worse, for it breeds the hatred of God inside said man by that man's humility- the exact opposite of pride therefore leads man to hate God in all of His greatness, *for* the exact reason of His greatness is He hated in fact by the lowly man therefore infact.

[@eilismoffatt7350]

I struggled for a long time with the fact that some of the Angels rejected God. How could they when to see God is to love Him? Whoever ‘sees’ God is compelled to love Him. God knows this! But he doesn’t want puppets. He wants us to freely choose to love Him! Man therefore did not ‘see’ God in His reality. God hid behind the veil. Then I realised that this was how it must also have been for the Angels. Before the Angels saw God in His reality, they too underwent a ‘test’ as humans did and as they still do. The test for the Angels was obviously to do with Pride and Ambition - to become like God. Lucifer was tempted and succumbed as other Angels also did with him. God chooses humility over every situation for and in His Kingdom and He leads by example. To be truly great you have to become very small! God knows all about being small - He entered the Virgin’s womb! His dear Mother, although the Chosen One, never expected that she would be God’s Mother. How awesome, how humble. Some Angels could not accept this Will of God and so became His adversary! How sad! The inevitable consequence of allowing ‘free will’. God says’ I am sorry but it had and has to be this way’. How awesome You are dear Father!

[@Apanblod]

So is there anything that corroborates this view in reality, or is it merely Aquinas's guess?

[@fr.chrispietraszko1234]

My speculation is buried in the distinction between their natural knowledge and the supernatural knowledge. It would seem to me that prior to their act of unity with God (that is to say, the 1st moment of their existence), the knowledge they would have had would be incomplete - since they did not yet have beatitude. Given that their end is in the contemplation of God, and as such, the Vision of Him, not having the full knowledge of God, there would have been no error in one sense, but there would have been room for error in another. By error here I also mean sin. With regard to the knowledge they were given by God, I believe that it is likely, given what we know of God, that such knowledge would have been a test, whereby they would have to defer to God in the midst of the absence of perfect knowing. As such, this makes it possible, it seems to me, to become envious or prideful since part of sin can involve making a judgment or decision that is contrary to reason. Had Lucifer become knowledgeable that God would become man, instead of choosing to be curious about the beauty and kindness of this act, he would, as you say, cling to Himself and find himself in competition with both God and mankind. Knowing that his end was in God makes this difficult to argue, yet it does not seem to dismiss the possibility of having a gluttonous type of preference for an end that is greater than the Virgin Mary. In that, it makes sense out of the notion that Satan had enmity between Mary, because her dignity was raised above all the angels. It seems to me that its been argued by St. Thomas, that Satan was a Cherub, which is a choir known for having the calling to defend the ARK of the Covenant. Therefore his very vocation would have been associated with protecting the New Ark of the Covenant, to whom he was envious. This seems to be explainable if he had some incomplete knowledge of God's will in this regard, and since he didn't have the vision of God it was nonetheless possible for him to turn what was good in his mind into what was evil and what was evil into what was good.

[@dragomirzarev9155]

Sir, you need to go back to the drawing board.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

​@@dragomirzarev9155If you don't have anything of substance to contribute to the brother, just don't comment with those insulting secularist remarks!

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️Dear brother, yes, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, Satan was a Cherub (the Fallen ones were Seraphs btw), so Aquinas is correct. God's Angels don't have absolute free will as humans do. Why? Because only Man was endowed by the Father with the spark of the divine essence injected into his soul by the Holy Spirit of God in the breath of life, and that's exactly what gives us PERSONHOOD, and that what being in the image and likeness of God means. While Angels are like animals in the sense that they aren't persons, only possess a nature, therefore their knowledge and actions are instinctive, not transcendent nor expands, so they behave like innocent children in this sense, that they don't know right from wrong, hence can err, or be deceived by Satan (who also erred at first), in the case of the Nephiles. They can choose like animals do, but not freely and consciously like man. Therefore, Angels have no option to repent and correct their dids, so once they choose 1 thing it paints them as such forever. Now, despite Satan and his Nephiles having rebelled against God, nevertheless, they are still under His command, and in fact, Satan is the Father's servant as His Adversary, in order to test Man's faith, and He uses him for those tasks, and allows him to test man whenever He wills it, at the right moment which He alone chooses, and that is the reason why God the Father gave him the authority over the material world until salvation. The question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, and their forms, depending on their species/rank is a hybrid between human & animal ones, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, so the beloved Aquinas was incorrect on that issue as well. God bless🙏❤️

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️Yes, but that is not the question...the question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, so the beloved holy Aquinas is incorrect on this issue, so I would appreciate if you Thomists would agree with me on this matter, and not with the holy Aquinas 🤷

[@robertoalvarez6006]

A little be confuse, i need to understand again and again, if everything happened in HEAVEN AND HIS CREATION IS PERFECT, why some creation create themself again THEIR CREATOR? BECAUSE GOD IS GOD...

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

What??? What is that gibberish?? Speak clearly!🤦

[@me_1792]

I thought angels rebelled against God because they didn't accept and agree with the idea of Jesus becoming human (and whatever else it entails) and so didn't want to become servers of lowly creatures because they knew they were in fact superior to humans, developing pride in their rationale ("I'm better than them, why should I serve them?"). After all, they did have free will to "think" and choose like humans. Plus Thomas' reason for them wanting to be essentially "self-sufficient", there must've been an allure that was stronger than serving God: to become one, to imitate God, to control, create, rule (apparent from what we see in the world today). The reason for their fall and why they rebelled isn't important because we know they erred from the result of their actions and can implicate that whatever they did was unholy and sets example for humans to not reject God.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️Dear brother, first off, your presupposition is wrong: it has nothing to do with the Christ here: 1. Satan rebelled because of his passions of jealousy and pride towards Adam who in his eyes given his 1st place by God. 2. The fallen Angels were deceived by Satan, who seduced them with the daughters of Man. 3. Man is only lower than Angels by rank, meaning he doesn't serve God in His heavenly Kingdom close to him, and is limited by a lower kind of body than that of Angels, but other than that, man is superior to the Angels, and that is 1st cause of Satan's jealousy and rebellion. Angels don't have absolute free will as humans do. Why? Because only Man was endowed by the Father with the spark of the divine essence injected into his soul by the Holy Spirit of God in the breath of life, and that's exactly what gives us PERSONHOOD, and that what being in the image and likeness of God means. While Angels are like animals in the sense that they aren't persons, only possess a nature, therefore their knowledge and actions are instinctive, not transcendent nor expands, so they behave like innocent children in this sense, that they don't know right from wrong, hence can err, or be deceived by Satan (who also erred at first), in the case of the Nephiles. They can choose like animals do, but not freely and consciously like man. Therefore, Angels have no option to repent and correct their dids, so once they choose 1 thing it paints them as such forever. Now, despite Satan and his Nephiles having rebelled against God, nevertheless, they are still under His command, and in fact, Satan is the Father's servant as His Adversary, in order to test Man's faith, and He uses him for those tasks, and allows him to test man whenever He wills it, at the right moment which He alone chooses, and that is the reason why God the Father gave him the authority over the material world until salvation. The question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, and their forms, depending on their species/rank is a hybrid between human & animal ones, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, so the beloved Aquinas was incorrect on that issue as well. I hope that answers all your questions, Roman Catholic bro, and if you have more I would be glad to help. God bless🙏❤️

[@alastairpaisley6668]

There is no great mystery here. If God is the creator of all creatures, then he is ultimately responsible for whatever choices a creature makes. No amount of sophistry will change what I can clearly see to be true.

[@oolooo]

I feel like we can emulate the simplicity of knowledge of Cherubim and Seaphim and say in regards to the Demonic Rebellion and say ... Demons are really freaking stupid .

[@jwm6314]

Compared to us? We're idiots. God help us, without His grace we will choose pride as well.

[@elendil354]

I dont get it. Its so obviously evil if I where to create a person that I knew would condem itself to eternal torment when tested. A creatures ability to choose eternal torment, or to bring it about unwittingly, must be Gods doing. Isnt the creator responsible for his creation? I can see how it could be good to create a person that knew about eternal torment and hell but that always chose in such a way that he never actually ended up there.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

You have a looot to learn. Despite Satan and the Fallen Angels having sinned, God still had mercy on them and gave them authority over the material realm. Angels don't have absolute free will as humans do. Why? Because only Man was endowed by the Father with the spark of the divine essence injected into his soul by the Holy Spirit of God in the breath of life, and that's exactly what gives us PERSONHOOD, and that what being in the image and likeness of God means. While Angels are like animals in the sense that they aren't persons, only possess a nature, therefore their knowledge and actions are instinctive, not transcendent nor expands, so they behave like innocent children in this sense, that they don't know right from wrong, hence can err, or be deceived by Satan (who also erred at first), in the case of the Nephiles. They can choose like animals do, but not freely and consciously like man. Therefore, Angels have no option to repent and correct their dids, so once they choose 1 thing it paints them as such forever. Now, despite Satan and his Nephiles having rebelled against God, nevertheless, they are still under His command, and in fact, Satan is the Father's servant as His Adversary, in order to test Man's faith, and He uses him for those tasks, and allows him to test man whenever He wills it, at the right moment which He alone chooses, and that is the reason why God the Father gave him the authority over the material world until salvation. The question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, and their forms, depending on their species/rank is a hybrid between human & animal ones, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, so the beloved Aquinas was incorrect on that issue as well. I hope that answers all your questions, Roman Catholic bro, and if you have more I would be glad to help. God bless🙏❤️

[@DeathDad]

As clear as mud at the bottom of an algae filled pond…

[@Chr1st_has_risen]

Elden ring vibes

[@winstonbarquez9538]

When God brought the Son into the world and asked His angels to worship Him, they did not want to worship the incarnate Son whom they regarded as a little lower than them having acquired a human nature.

[@dragomirzarev9155]

There are no 'fallen angels', so to speak. Angels do not have free will, only humans do. Therefore, there are no angels who have chosen to go against G-d. Angels were created by G-d to serve G-d and to serve humans. Each angel has a specific task and specific knowledge to carry out the task. They cannot choose not to carry out the task because they do not have free will. Angels should not be worshipped. They are another form of life that G-d created with a purpose. Satan is an angel. Satan's purpose is to do the, so called, 'dirty job'. Satan is not a fallen angel. We are the only species that have free will and we are the only species that can make the world we live in more G-dly. There might have been demons in existence at some point, but to my understanding they do not exist anymore. For more information, consult your local Rabbi.

[@patienttreater]

I have this nagging feeling that those angelic traits is somehow similar to Artificial Intelligence.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Maybe in some respects, but it is important to remember that angels are created "to the image of God," ad imaginem dei, like humans. So they have a source and a destiny in God which cannot be reproduced.

[@Bob-cn5or]

"This is a great mystery." This is rather science-fiction-theology, if the only content of supernatural revelation is God's self-communication to his creature.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

Bob, we'd love to engage on the question. What exactly is the nature of your objection?

[@Bob-cn5or]

@@ThomisticInstitute My point is this: I don't think that die existence and history of angels can be known by supernatural revelation because the only content of supernatural revelation is God's self-communication to His creature in Jesus Christ. Our faith has a utterly simple structure, the basic mystery is our communion with God. All articles unfold this mystery. Trinity: We are taken up into the eternal love between the Father and the Son; Incarnation: The Son assumes a human nature in order to tell us the "Word of God" etc. So we cannot believe in a supernatural sense in the existence of created things or states of affairs. Whether there are angels or not has to be decided by natural reason. But here is a danger of unfruitful speculation or "science-fiction-theology". I don't think that this view is against the tradition if one conceives of tradition the passing on of the word of God (this is also the essence of the Church).

[@ThomisticInstitute]

@@Bob-cn5or Okay, I see better now. I think that our disagreement is principally a hermeneutical point. We agree that the Trinity and the Incarnation are the central teachings of the Christian faith and that everything else hinges upon this. St. Thomas argues for this point in the treatise on faith as a reading of Hebrews 11:6. Thus, in the analogy of faith, we need to assert the importance of these central doctrines and explain how other doctrines issue from them and are ordered back to them. It seems that we differ on the revelatory content of Scripture though. Catholic theology has typically argued for a thicker understanding than you enunciate, namely that Scripture pronounces not only upon God, but on all things in light of God, and that by faith we have the capacity to receive and interpret this revelation. Our belief in angels represents a dimension of this aspect of revelation. Thanks for raising the question and helping to tease this out further.

[@Bob-cn5or]

@@ThomisticInstitute Thanks for your response! I would say that Scripture is only "Holy Scripture" insofar it can be understood as the "Word of God" faced with God's utter transcendence. And here we need the trinitarian and christological dogmas as a kind of clef in order to understand Scripture in this way. Vat. I is very clear that there is a difference between objects of natural reason and objects of faith. The important question, then, is: What are possible objects of faith? I would argue: The whole created world (and the fact that is created in the sense of totally dependent on God) is object of reason, and therefore not object of faith. The only object of faith is God's self-communication to His creature because only this we cannot know even in principle by natural reason. Catholic theology is/was typically not very aware of the importance of this question, or so it seems to me.

[@ThomisticInstitute]

@@Bob-cn5or St. Thomas weighs in on the question in a couple of places in Ia Q. 1. You might enjoy reading a. 3 (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-1#FPQ1A3THEP1) and a. 7 (aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/st-ia-q-1#FPQ1A7THEP1).

[@MusaOsmanKaratosun]

If I started with the assumption that angels were created in such a way that they can make a choice, it would be quite logical to think exactly like that. However, we Muslims believe that demons were created from another creation class, namely fire. Therefore, it is out of question for an angel to fall or use a single right to choose otherwise. They don't MAKE A CHOICE. I just cant grasp why you think like this. Your texts or honored names like Thomas, makes you think in a spesific narrowed window. Otherwise, very clear explanation. Except, these are all hypotetical.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸Dear Muslim brother, I will clarify everything for you. First off, your assumption is wrong - sin doesn't only infect material bodies, but also subtle bodies. Angels are not incorporeal as God alone is. We Christians also believe they were made out of light/fire, but we believe ALL Angels were, and the Jinn is just another species of Angel, which we call Seraph (but Satan was a different kind - the high ranked Cherub, which fits with your Islamic view as well) Angels don't have absolute free will as humans do. Why? Because only Man was endowed by the Father with the spark of the divine essence injected into his soul by the Holy Spirit of God in the breath of life, and that's exactly what gives us PERSONHOOD, and that what being in the image and likeness of God means. While Angels are like animals in the sense that they aren't persons, only possess a nature, therefore their knowledge and actions are instinctive, not transcendent nor expands, so they behave like innocent children in this sense (which also fits with Islamic teachings - you definitely got it right and many Christians don't know that), that they don't know right from wrong, hence can err, or be deceived by Satan (who also erred at first), in the case of the Nephiles. They can choose like animals do, but not freely and consciously like man. Therefore, Angels have no option to repent and correct their dids, so once they choose 1 thing it paints them as such forever. Now, despite Satan and his Nephiles having rebelled against God, nevertheless, they are still under His command, and in fact, Satan is the Father's servant as His Adversary, in order to test Man's faith, and He uses him for those tasks, and allows him to test man whenever He wills it, at the right moment which He alone chooses, and that is the reason why God the Father gave him the authority over the material world until salvation. The question is how could Angels choose evil if they don't have the knowledge of Good & Evil?? Well, the answer: they can err, so I don't understand where did Aquinas get this assumption that they cannot err through passions (of course not passions of the flesh)? Also God's Angels DO have bodies - subtle bodies, as taught to us by our Church fathers, which are made out of light, and their forms, depending on their species/rank is a hybrid between human & animal ones, as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus, so the beloved Aquinas was incorrect on that issue as well. I hope that answers all your questions, Roman Catholic bro, and if you have more I would be glad to help. God bless🙏❤️

[@11kravitzn]

Seems made up.

[@falnica]

This is mythology

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

The only myth around here is your patнetic life, faceless b0t😂😂😂

[@frankie3041]

Google “true myth”

[@mrwater5772]

What ridiculous nonsense

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

Yes, your pathetic life is definitely nonsense, faceless b0t😂😂

[@frankie3041]

Why?

[@ciscodealmeida8541]

The more i hear the readings from Aquinas, the less i believe he became a Saint, unless he did a lot of fasting or social work, by his philosophy he would never make .it.i am no saint,yet i can hear all the wrongs you say.