Angmar - The Land of Iron

In this video, we will talk about Angmar - the Iron-home. What was it like? Who lived there? What part did it play in the history of Middle-earth? And what happened to it?
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[@saintskutt]

It is truly a blessed day when i refresh youtube and see a Darth Gandalf video uploaded "less than a minute ago". Love your work, my guy!

[@blueshit199]

1:12 man of Carn Dum wearing mf Doom's mask is the best visual gag I've seen in a LOTR lore video yet

[@MerkhVision]

Oh shit you’re right it does look like that lmao but I don’t think it’s an intentional gag, it’s just a coincidence that the helmet happens to look like that lol

[@WedgeyPage]

That is an illustration from Battle for Middle-earth II: The Rise of the Witch King.

[@anonymous-hz2un]

Mf doom... are you for real? It's the helmet from Gladiator.

[@blueshit199]

@@anonymous-hz2un okay try to say "man of Carn *Dum* wearing Maximus' mask from the Gladiator" and expect people to get what's funny about it

[@DaBIONICLEFan]

Makes me want to play RotWK again. "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall". This part of the lore is so fascinating.

[@TheLeftie600]

It’s a pity that the rise and fall of Angmar wasn’t done as a TV series, there’s a lot there that could work on a variety of budgets.

[@roguewasbanned4746]

It’s probably not lore that is available. You have to have rights to the books where the lore is from to make a show about it

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@roguewasbanned4746 It's not a rights issue in this case. Basically everything we know about Angmar and Arnor is from the Appendices, which are available to use.

[@TheLeftie600]

@@DarthGandalfYT Thought so, there's enough subplots with an overarching event that you can do so much with it.

[@farhadzaker2377]

They wanted to use something less game of thrones-y and more Tolkien-y. That's why they went with a great Evil that is Sauron and not the civil war ridden fate of Arnor (which ends with the grim fall of Arnor).

[@darthzelius1906]

Please no, in the current environment it would be awful…

[@istari0]

In the right hands, this is a tale I'd love to see made into movies or television.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Agreed. I think the period between 1940-1975 has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, I'm guessing future content will just retread what has already been done.

[@backwashjoe7864]

Maybe it’s just too weird that the years have the same numbers as our recent past. This gives me mental whiplash all the time! Whereas the First Age never gets past 600, and the Hobbit and LoTR are comfortably in the 3000s.

[@macosx10.7lion4]

​@@backwashjoe7864 The Hobbit is in 2941 and LoTR is in 3018-3019 mostly

[@baschdiro8565]

I love the history of Arnor and Angmar. I hope there will one day be a faithful adaption of their history.

[@centralscrutinizer6108]

I consider you one of the true Tolkien scholars. I love watching your videos and you do well in your telling of the tales. Darth Gandalf, Men of the West, In Deep Geek, The Broken Sword & Wizards and Warriors are all the truest and best scholars of Middle Earth and its rich history. If only Amazon would listen to you guys for what their stupid show needs to be about.

[@amh9494]

Try girlnextgondor as well.

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

Those are great channels, for sure. But Broken Sword. . . well, they once referred to Moria's Balrog as "a foul servant of the secret fire" lol. And put those words in Gandalf's mouth, no less!

[@muenchhausenmusic]

@@amh9494 She is incredible. Even Robert from In Deep Geek is in awe at her encyclopeadic Tolkien knowledge

[@muenchhausenmusic]

I suggest you give Tolkien Untangled's "How the 2nd age should have been adapted" a try, imo arguably the greatest works accross all of TolkienTube

[@OrchestrationOnline]

6:44 "...the Witch-King foolishly chose to meet them in battle beyond the gates..." Not foolishly. The purpose of Angmar was never to establish a realm - it was rather to bring down the kingdom of Arnor and to eliminate the Northern Dúnedain as a threat. The Witch-King had essentially achieved that with the passing of Arvedui. With the arrival of southern troops, he would have known the game was up - so throwing his troops into a hopeless charge was no cost to him. Meeting the Gondorian army in battle also gave the Witch-King the opportunity to taunt Eärnur with cowardice - thereby eliminating the southern line of kings as well with a challenge from Minas Morgûl in later years. It was all tactical, though of course it would have been helpful to Sauron to have Angmar established all across Eriador. But clearly that wasn't the longterm plan.

[@anti-liberalismo]

It's always pleasant to see you uploading any video whatsoever, mein freuden! How I wished Tolkien would give more details on the many Battles of 1409!

[@paulofrota3958]

** reaches for "MERP 2300 - Angmar - Land of the Witch King" on the shelf ** hmmm... you're right...

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I never played MERP, but I've definitely swept through the wikis reading what interesting stuff people came up with about Angmar.

[@MrKurtank]

Nice one, "Angerdan" got a good 'lol' from me. A pre-breakfast treat in London. Thank you.

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

Thank you Lord DarthGandolf for another great video

[@ZingoBananaa]

been trying to get back into the middle-earth lore again lately, your videos really help!

[@PeculiarNotions]

Excellent dive into Angmar.

[@EricGasz69420]

Man now I wanna play ROTWK… great video! Love your stuff

[@dansuciu733]

I love it, keep uploading videos like this.

[@danielshaw2473]

The Men of Carn-Dum were a hybrid race of Hill Men and Black Numenoreins...at least thats what I believe, due to my own research in angmar's history.

[@rikk319]

It would be a hybrid culture, not race, men were one race in Tolkien's lore.

[@istari0]

Where did you come across something saying Black Númenoreans lived that far north? That would be interesting reading as everything I have read says they lived farther south, some in southern Gondor and Harondor but most in Umbar and farther south.

[@MerkhVision]

@istari0 I’m not the one you asked but my interpretation of their idea is that these could be a separate unrelated but similar group, meaning their not an off-shoot of the other Black Numenoreans from Southern Gondor that we know about, but that name does fit them because they might also be people of Numenorean/Dunedain descent that chose to serve Sauron/The Witch-King.

[@istari0]

@@MerkhVision It's possible but what I am curious about is where in his research did he find something that indicated there were Black Númenoreans living that far north.

[@mrmacura3421]

I highly doubt that this was explicitly stated somewhere. DG tells us at the start of the video that the men of Carn Dum where those that already lived in the region but that has never actually been confirmed. Appendix A only speaks of evil men and orcs that gathered there. It COULD have been hillmen from Rhudaur who allied with the Witch King and manned his stronghold or Black Numenoreans who came with him there (him being most likely one himself). However, none of this is certain and the term "men of Carn Dum" could just as likely have been used for the human soldiers of Angmar in general. Also remember that the term was used by Merry who most likely did not have accurate knowledge about that war.

[@bristleconepine4120]

It's worth noting that the Dúnedain of Arnor never tried to subjugate the Lossoth either. Perhaps the Dúnedain just don't like cold weather? Based on what we know, Númenor was probably either tropical or perhaps subtropical. Could that have something to do with it?

[@alanpennie]

Likely enough. If they'd occupied it some unfortunate people would have been stuck with garrison duty there *with lice in their tunics and a cold in the nose*.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

If you build an empire, you don't want to conquer land that has no value to you. It's also good to leave escape routes / unclaimed land for peoples who don't want to become part of the empire. You as emperor can avoid armed conflict with groups that are not worth fighting (ones that harbour no riches and would never truly submit)

[@mrmacura3421]

That's exactly the reason. And not only were the Lossoths' lands without value to anyone except them, they themselves were almost completely irrelevant as well. They were no threat to the Dunedain and from what we know were probably so few in number that nobody in Middle Earth cared about them living there at all.

[@holypaladin4657]

⁠​⁠@@Crafty_Spirit The dangers of such an approach are perfectly encapsulated in this history of Arnor and Angmar. If the Dunedain of Arnor had stomped out all resistance from the native men, then the Witch King would not have been able to consolidate his power using them. Instead by leaving Angmar unoccupied and without surveillance they allowed the enemy to build their forces and eventually bring their doom. Leaving an undefended land on your border, ie an “escape route” is much more dangerous than you imply, and no empire ever in history would willingly do it... the reason would be lack of resources and general overextension forcing their hand. Given the relatively small population of Arnor even as a unified kingdom compared to it’s prodigious size, this makes sense. Gondor was much more proactive with threats, much more unified, and generally much more well put together. Guess which survived. It is truly a pity that Earnur got himself killed without even spawning an heir and forced the future Gondor to endure the wretched line of Isildur, long bereft of lordship and dignity. Now as for the Lossoth specifically, they are in such a position and of such low numbers that they are essentially insignificant. It’s as if the Romans bordered Eskimos and Sami… they are essentially a non-factor. Even if their enemies fled to the remnants of Forodwaith, there are no resources to exploit, no great numbers of people to unify, no hospitable land to even live on in numbers larger than a small village. The Lossoth as a people are not of violent character and ambitions, they generally are more concerned with themselves and their survival, so the enemies of Arnor attacking from a different direction will not easily be able to marshal even these meagre numbers of people to attack from the north. These can be safely disregarded. Occupation would take more resources than it would yield for both Arnor and Arnor’s enemies. This is a specific and special case.

[@cavetroll666]

Salute from Toronto 🦝 love the content

[@MerkhVision]

Lol I don’t know what the raccoon emoji is doing there but I love it haha

[@cavetroll666]

@@MerkhVision lmao Toronto is Racoon city we call them trash pandas :D

[@gorgoeuspaul1234]

Hi, I’ve been really enjoying your contents for a very long time! I was hoping you would create a new playlist for the videos that are not arranged in the playlist…? I love listening to your videos as I work but I see only playlists that are available are Mysteries and war of middle earth Many thanks for awesome videos!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I recently added videos to a new Arnor playlist. I'll look at what other playlists I can cobble together soon. Probably ones about Gondor and Numenor at the very least.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Love me some North of Middle-earth lore!

[@wedgeantillies66]

Angmar was perfect for the plans of the witch king, filled with men and Orcs, whose hearts were filled with a hatred of Arnor. Providing him with a ready made army and its position on Arnor’s, put him in a prime strategic position to launch way after way of attacks until he overwhelmed his foe by attrition alone.

[@brianc9374]

I always imagined Angmar like minnesota.

[@istari0]

I assure you we have no Nazgûl or even Orcs and Trolls in Minnesota.

[@brianc9374]

@@istari0 you've never seen the women there

[@istari0]

@@brianc9374 It is certainly true that I have never seen a woman from Angmar.

[@ulbingelias6894]

How strong do you think was the army of Angmar at it's peak?

[@anti-liberalismo]

I believe the peak would be at the Battle of Fornost, they would probably have the same host as the host of Minas Morgul, some 60000 orcs and men and other creatures, no wonder the Dúnedain got destroyed.

[@ulbingelias6894]

@@anti-liberalismo And how big would you think would be the army of Arthedain?

[@Wolfogre]

@@ulbingelias6894 I think qualitatively they would have been superior but numerically far fewer. As I recall, Arthedain had been hit by a bad plague just previous to the incursions of Angmar forces. Also, I seem to recall that a single company of hobbit archers were sent north for that war but no one returned. I don't remember where I read it, however, and it might be non-canon.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@Wolfogre Acually Arthedain was not affected by the plague, but the Shire was, as well as Cardolan

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@ulbingelias6894 I made some calculations and estimates based on the population of Numenor at its peak, which Tolkien gave us at 15 million. By the time of the Fall of Fornost, Arthedain would have no more than 100 thousand inhabitants (excluding the Hobbits), so I believe their army would be between 5 to 8 thousand at most at 1974, during it's fall, I consider in this estimate that Arnor would have 2 million inhabitants at the most during it's peak at Elendil's reign.

[@kohlicoide2258]

I really like Lotro but what i not like in Lotro is how they show Angmar, in the game it looks kinda like Mordor with the ashlands. I really wish they used more this "Icy land of evil" aesthetic. But nice video :)

[@jaykubisanidiot8657]

Anger Dan!

[@General12th]

Hi Darth!

[@eugenebelford9087]

It's actually one of the things about which I feel it's sort of a 'continuity error', because it makes no logical sense. The Istari and i.p. Gandalf arrive in 1000 TA. Gandalf (and people like Elrond and Galadriel and Glorfindel) already are worried about Mirkwood/ Dol Guldur as a sign of a returning Sauron in 1050 - 1100 T.A.. And that's only "a shadow fell upon" (-> "the Necromancer"). Then in 1300+ T.A. you have a "Witch King", who raises the dead (which had to be magic way beyond what was 'normal'), systematically destroying Arnor (which is far worse than what happens in Mirkwood at that time). ... And they don't start investigating? They don't harbor suspicions? Aside that: Even a depleted and decimated Arnor was still able to create the weapons of Westernese. At a time when the twin realm of Gondor reached its zenit. Why isn't the armory of Gondor - next to Mordor and in particular after the fall of Minas Ithil brimming with such magical weapons? Or at least has some legacy/ heirloom/ legendary magical weapons for their 'High and Might'? Only an ancestral horn?

[@istari0]

We know very little about everyone's activities during this period, particularly of Gandalf. But they could have decided to spend more time focused on finding Sauron, who was obviously more dangerous, than the Witch King, who they may well not have known was a Ringwraith at the time. As far as Gondor's armory goes, they may very well have had some such weapons in it but those weapons weren't used in a notable way in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields or The Battle of the Morannon. We know Aragorn was wielding Anduril. Other captains in Gondor's army, such as Imrahil, may well have wielded powerful weapons but they only ever fought evil Men, Orcs, or Trolls.

[@wompastompa3692]

The Lift King of Ang-mirin'.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

Can you cite of the source where you claimed that prince of cardolan died to a speart to his heart? In the Fellowship of the Ring Merry sees being stabbed in the heart by the Men of Carn Dum at night in his dream after awakening from the spell of the Barrow-wight. It would be a cool detail that Merry saw how the inhabiters of this grave died

[@tiltskillet7085]

I think you've cited the main source. :P But also App. A, "Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan..." So, not a certainty--those who "say that" could be wrong, or Merry may not have been experiencing a memory of the last prince--but it's a reasonable inference.

[@sophiejones3554]

It's actually clear from what is said in LotR that 1) the barrow-wight was a prince of Cardolan and 2) Merry is seeing his memories.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@@sophiejones3554 Merry shouldn’t need to see his memories. It might have been a random soldier of this said prince Prince was in the same mound. It is never said that he was the wight that orchestrated the attack on Merry although I think that’s likely

[@sophiejones3554]

@@oguzhanenescetin5702 there is only one wight actually depicted and it's unlikely there were any others in the barrow. The existence of other wights is only confirmed by Tom Bombadil. The memory is from the perspective of a balcony on a castle: thus it must be the Prince's memory. A soldier would not have a reason to stand in such a place even if he was a royal guard: a balcony like that would only be accessible from private quarters. I say it's unlikely there was more than one wight in the barrow because of the real life inspiration: the dolmen tombs of England. The layout described is clearly similar. These were small mounds, longer than they were wide: tall enough for a person stooping to enter at the front, but the back was inaccessible except by crawling. Think, a wheelbarrow upside down. Indeed, that's the origin of the word "wheelbarrow". The hobbits don't see a body when they enter the tomb, only the knives. This makes sense if there was only a single body in the tomb, since they didn't venture farther back than they could walk. Hobbits are 3/4 the height of an adult human, so they would have walked to the middle before lying down. Had there been more wights in that barrow, they would have seen the bodies before lying down. And they definitely would not have survived long enough for Tom Bombadil to find them. One wight was already more than they could handle.

[@MerkhVision]

@sophiejones3554 the Barrow Wights were not the spirits of the deceased Dunedain of Cardolan, they were foul spirits from Angmar sent to inhabit the graves of the Cardolan nobility. Cmon, this was even also mentioned in this video! But yeah I think Merry was seeing the memories of the actual last prince of Cardolan or someone similar, (not the memories of the Barrow-Wight!) and that’s how we know how he died.

[@ledanoir1239]

Maybe the men of Carn Durn is just how Tolkien named once whichever men served the witch king, not men *from* there

[@MerkhVision]

That’s a good point

[@chables74]

Algormancy!

[@crowverra5343]

Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.

[@justinah7400]

Angmar near the Iron Hills?

[@R0geR0sv0ld]

I accept the fan theory/ head canon that Angmar is the site of ancient Utumno, whose foundations were not unmade. It is an evil place akin to the Dead Marshes and the Barrow Downs. Evil lived there long enough to permeate into the land itself. Due to this lingering evil, the Witch-king could root out and free many other evils such as the Barrow-wights. There is accompanying precedent from Fellowship, where Eregion is described as still longing for the elves who lived there.

[@davidseligman6445]

I think Utumno was further north and to the east more. But hey , I think the whole planet got shook up and reshaped once or twice in the interim- so maybe.

[@way2tehdawn]

I’d love a video on why men and orcs (who eat men) would ever cooperate with one another. I know it happened a lot but I’d personally be repulsed by them.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Witch king uses Angmar and its people as a disposable asset to be used and discarded without though or pity, once he had achieved the task of destroying Arnor.

[@baystated]

Where the its name come from "Angmar"? Someone felt the need to create a name for that place? Whose name was it" The Numenorians? Why did they make a specific name for a place that held little importance to them ... until later? Was it named by the Men of Angmar? Did they have a different name for their land? What name did the armies of the Witch King use during their campaign?

[@MerkhVision]

The name is a mix of Sindarin and Quenya, literally meaning “Iron Dwelling” but usually translated as “Land of Iron.” It probably was the Numenoreans or the later Dunedain who gave it that name, but it also could’ve easily been elves who named it that. Why wouldn’t they name it? People like to name stuff, even if the place isn’t important, it’s still good to give it a name instead of just calling it “that place over there” lol.

[@whiteknightcat]

The land of iron? So kind of like northeastern Minnesota then?

[@NoOneInParticular94]

"Give up dat der halfling she-elf!" "If you want him, come and claim him!" "You betcha!"

[@whiteknightcat]

@@NoOneInParticular94 Well THAT'S different!

[@anti-liberalismo]

I am thinking, if the Éothéod drove out the people of Angmar from the Rhovanion, where did they go to?

[@rikk319]

Nowhere. They were likely slaughtered to the last person. Genocide.

[@istari0]

They simply could have fled farther east towards Rhûn or even south towards Mordor.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@rikk319 they were in the west of the misty mountains, but the lotr states the ones living in the east were driven out, so they must have gone somewhere

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@istari0 but how could they do so if the roads were all guarded by elves, dwarves and northmen?

[@istari0]

@@anti-liberalismo Small bands going across country could do so.

[@gnarlynarly1350]

pretty sure the men of rhudaur still exist. might be wrong tho

[@higginswalsan]

More like Dang Daniel Mar

[@apstrike]

Not to import a modern view, but I feel like climate change is a missing piece here. Tolkien talks at length about deforestation caused by the Numenorean shipping industry, but you have to also imagine that Angmar helped to wreck the ecology of Rhudaur and Cardolan, and that this is a reason for the depopulation of Arnor. But there's also a disconnect because farmland reverts to forest when people stop farming.

[@MerkhVision]

Lands don’t always return to forest. There are plenty of real places that stayed treeless after being deforested, even after people left it alone for a very long time. Things change, and some changes are irreversible. Climates change and environments shift.

[@Samuel42069]

usually when somebody calls somebody evil it is the one who calls someone evil that would be mostly defined as "evil". Good example is gondorians calling orcs serving under Sauron evil but the Gondorians were the one that commited genocide on orcs after one ring was destroyed, they murdered orcish women and children, no mercy. I haven't heard about orcs commiting genocide on the other hand.

[@Samuel42069]

haha funny, another genocide commited by gondorians is mentioned in the video. And you call gondorians "good" and their enemies "evil". Why call them that when gondorians are the ones commiting literal genocides on the foes that are beaten than them without any mercy.

[@Samuel42069]

angmar - "evil" kingdom according to you and maybe Tolkien. Why evil? Did they commited genocide? No. Did gondor commited genocide? 2 that i know of because of this video.

[@darkjudge8786]

Angmar = Scotland