Anime’s Stupidest Argument

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"What counts as anime?" has long been a topic of rabid debate in the anime fandom. Here's why "Not Scott Pilgrim" is the dumbest answer yet.
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In the depths of his Mother's Basement, Geoff Thew creates videos analyzing the storytelling techniques of anime and video games. He has been named the number one Worst KZbin Anime Reviewer by The Top Tens.

[@FowlFolk]

Tired: Scott Pilgrim Takes Off isn't anime because it's based on a western comic. Wired: Scott Pilgrim Takes Off is anime because it's made by Science Saru. Inspired: Scott Pilgrim Takes Off is anime because it's Canadian.

[@jerrycoob4750]

_happy canadian noises_

[@digitaljanus]

* "animé" is the word for "animated" in one of Canada's two official languages. 😉

[@goldlyves]

best take ive seen so far

[@guesta9822]

But Super Crooks is a anime and is based off a comic book.

[@4n631ic0b1ivi0n]

So by your definition 3 studio ghibli movies aren't anime because they are based on western works(howl's moving castle, the secret world of arrietty, and Ponyo).😅

[@shadow81818]

I would honestly love to see a video about that can of worms that is France's relationship to anime, that sounds very interesting.

[@moya036]

In the meantime you can read some manfra (manga inspired comics made mainly in France). Radiant is probably the more accessible to recommend, with an anime broadcasted on Japan to boot

[@ravenpotter3]

I would love to hear it too! When I was in France for 2 weeks over the summer for the first time I saw so much manga. Of series we don’t even have in America/ English yet. Like a lot more of Jojos. I want to hear about the French series that aren’t well known in the states.

[@Steelblaidd]

Please! that would be wonderful fun. Their second bigest animated export, after Asterix and Obelix, is so Anime it hurts.

[@alexanderblack7347]

Upvote this!

[@elfieroyer245]

I agree ! Im a first year animation student in France, and I would love to see a video on the subject ! Even if we have a lot of good shows and movies its kind of sad to see that a lot of them havent reach the mainstream. Especially since we tend to have a more varied catalogue than the us in my opinion

[@FlubbedPig]

Honestly, I'd really appreciate MAL adding a new categorization for anime vs donghua vs aeni, and at the same time maybe throw in a co-production in there. There's currently no way to say "Just show me the Japanese results" or "I want to see what China's been cooking", and I think it would be very appreciated. In doing so, you could also throw in a category all it's own for the edge-cases, which would allow you to not have to call things anime if that really gets your girdle in a grind, but would also let you properly include a full list of every studio's work instead of having to pick and choose what work by Japanese animators gets included. Like, fuck it, throw the Hobbit up on MAL under Ghibli, just label it as something categorically different if you want to.

[@Bionickpunk]

I eagerly await the day when we have a site that is the database for all animation, no matter the country. Japanese animation has arguably stopped being a niche thing since the 2010s, and the niche use of the term with ether evolve to include everything (just how Japanese do it from their end) or die out as a term all together.

[@Gemini476]

IMHO it couldn't hurt to just rebrand it as My Animation List and have "country of origin" or whatever be a search field.

[@ljeans531]

we have Disney, Sony, DC, and so many others working hard to make cartoons high quality. Children's cartoons are for sure lacking in innovation. But cartoons as a medium are not. I will give a easy definition: *Anime is given to a project that is worked on in some part, probably more than 30% in Japan and by a Japanese anime studio.* That's it, just because some style is replicating it does not make it anime. Avatar is a American cartoon, so is Scott pilgrim. Let's not take away from the hard work American animators put into their art. If I make a sushi inspired dish, does that make my sushi traditional? Of course not.

[@wave1090]

​​@@ljeans531is Avatar an American cartoon? It was animated mostly in Korea, by koreans working in a korean animation studio. Not in America

[@ljeans531]

@wave1090 That is a common misconception, large parts of the animation were sourced in Korea, but American animators did work on it, and all the story boarding, character design, and production happened in America at Nickelodeon.

[@caradine898]

A Japanese guy I went to college with asked me for English show recommendations and I mentioned to watch ATLA and he was like "oh yeah, I love that anime! It was one of my first English shows" and that was basically all I needed to know about this dumb debate.

[@Cryptic.Message]

Yeah, but to a Japanese person, "anime" is just the Japanese word for animation. So of course they would call an animation "anime", that's what that word means. However, in the non-Japanese world, that is not what the word "anime" means. If it was, there would be no reason to use a word from another language like that, we would just be calling them animations or cartoons. The fact that people in the West use the term "anime" to refer to Japanese animation makes entire sense, what doesn't make sense is you making the argument that that word means the same thing to a Westerner as it does to a Japanese person.

[@Cryptic.Message]

@@firebash7342 I'm just explaining how the usage of the word "anime" actually works in the real world. And the majority of people understand and agree with that, if you ask a random Westerner on the street what anime is, they're going to tell you "Japanese animation", not just "animation". But I guess if having a educated understanding of how language works makes me a neckbeard, then so be it lmao

[@itsjustvin7630]

​@@Cryptic.Messagepop quiz: what do you think the french call their animation

[@ynraider]

@@itsjustvin7630 Japanese consider ALL cartoons, as ANIME(Animation)... They also include Tokusatsu/Puppetry/CGI/Claymation as animations... Stop splitting hairs. "Japanime" is Japanese-originating CARTOONS...

[@itsjustvin7630]

@@ynraider yet we don't call donghua and aeni as animes.

[@dwmlue9299]

Calling Transformers a "prime example" but not even smirking when you say "Prime" is a crime.

[@GucciPucciMIH]

Bars

[@theemmjay5130]

Absolutely.

[@MrGonz801]

I partially disagree. Drawn together was not simply a war crime against anime. It was a war crime against everyone. It's part of the charm

[@mothersbasement]

Fair

[@cameronjadewallace]

Ngl, I loved Drawn Together.... I still love it. Probably BECAUSE it was terrible and obnoxiously offensive... There are reasons Xander is my favorite character, despite the fact I absolutely adore the Zelda franchise.

[@PWN4G3FTW]

@@cameronjadewallace Love it too, but I think it was excellent. How is it terrible?

[@Hawk7886]

I feel betrayed, I loved that show

[@ZyilxX]

@@PWN4G3FTW Imo, It was just too crass for me to enjoy. Blue comedy isn't my thing. I wouldn't call it terrible, just gross.

[@maracabo1176]

The whole "The author isn't japanese so it doesn't count" argument i saw some people say really falls apart once you point out the author of No Game No Life is Brazilian, and i don't think anyone with a brain is gonna call NGNL a cartoon

[@thomasffrench3639]

Well he did grow up and live in Japan. Also that makes like 30% of Miyazaki’s work not anime because he adapted European and American literature

[@TheGeladoo]

Of course not, NGNL is obviously a Desenho Animado!

[@Scazoid]

The Author of Cyberpunk Edgerunners aswell.

[@RhysClark97]

Just gonna casually throw something like Kings Avatar in there, Chinese produced show written by a Chinese person...they are willing to call this anime (more power to them obviously anything if its within the artistic medium should be considered anime if it followers certain signifiers, that's sorta how we went from "German Expressionism to just...Expressionism) but for some reason other shows with the same anime stylings that at a second glance most people would more than be willing to call anime...are not on MAL...and the only reasoning I see is because theyre produced by English speakers.

[@christopher4227]

Author of doctor stone is french and the artist is korean if i am correct not sure tho Edit: the Author is japanese but the illustrator is korean

[@dtester]

Always an interesting debate. The only thing I really disagree with is the people that think that the "anime" label makes the show better for some reason. It's just a category and shows aren't lesser because they aren't called anime.

[@mothersbasement]

I think the average quality of anime is a little higher than cartoons, but cartoons can be amazing. Phineas and Ferb is as good as any anime.

[@AeonKnigh432]

​@mothersbasement The average quality of anime is equal to cartoons, imo, it's just that we in the western world only notice the good ones because those are the ones that are airing on out TVs and being advertised to us.

[@parsath_2584]

Kung Fu Panda is by far my favourite anime.

[@GoodwillWright]

Because most people don't watch the terrible anime. I don't think anime is better or anything, but when I want a certain something that generally only anime gives, then I watch anime. Animation-wise, though, I would say anime is generally better and more reliable because you know which studios to watch out for. Although even parts of that are still subjective. Some people may not like high-octane anime animation because its too messy, bright, and colorful for them. They may prefer something simpler like how DC or Warner does action sequences.

[@irrelevantotaku]

Idk man i just get tired and call it all cartoons

[@chrisosborn6401]

As this video proves, packing every animated production into neat, separate boxes is reductive and doomed to fail. Western animation was inspired by the East, East was then in turn inspired by Western hybrid offspring, and the feedback loop continues to produce fresh, creative visions. It's beautiful.

[@Bionickpunk]

East was inspired by Western animation like Disney, Western animation was then inspired by the East like Mecha and Super Sentai, then East with west, and back and forth for nearly a century. Animation industries have almost always interacted with each other cause the actual people in the industry dont just love Japanese or Western animation, they love all animation, and the cooperation and intermixing has only increased in this more global and digital world. That is indeed beautiful.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

People like anime, there are entire channels just for anime People like anime, nobody likes western garbage Demon slayer out sold the entire comic industry

[@beeaggro2593]

It's kind of like ignoring how much creatives talk to each other, reference each other and so on. Luffy is referencing Bugs Bunny ffs.

[@PatManDX]

It's almost like the only people who really give a shit about the distinction and perpetuate this idea of competition are elitist, extremely sweaty jerks and not anyone actually in the industry. Japanese creators and Japanese fans mostly don't give a shit and it's always been us western fans that distinguish it. It's always been like this with animation, and film, and video games for that matter. There's always going to be differences in style and technique based on the culture that developed it and that isn't an unreasonable basis to categorize the various regional pre-mutations, but when the people of those industries are inspired by and actively influence by each other, and have since the infancy of the various mediums, you can only categorize something that actively cross-contaminates and intermingles so much before you have to admit that sometimes a definition is entirely arbitrary and causes more problems that in solves.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Some western people prefer the japan animations I dont know why that offends some people Maybe it's elitism or not, at the end of the day it's still a prefernce and some people prefer anime If you prefer cartoons ok watch spongebob if im to prefer naruto. I have the freedom to do that as does any other anime fan

[@courtneyk9755]

The best part about this silly ass argument is that ppl in Japan call MINIONS anime. It genuinely is not that serious. I feel like people who have this rigid definition of anime (and likely insist that subs are better) just project their insecurities onto anime by pretending it’s this consistently high level art form that only the most mature and cultured people can enjoy… as if a show about becoming your crush’s pet dog doesn’t exist.

[@Bionickpunk]

Ah yes, a show about reincarnating as a vending machine, such high art, worthy of the Mona Lisa. X) Yeah no, I agree with you, Japanese animation has loads of jokey stuff that never intended to be serious or high art.

[@courtneyk9755]

@@Bionickpunk lol yea like not to say that there aren’t really great and artistic series but like any other media- some stuff is just meant to be good fun. Vending machine isekai is a good example of that

[@samaustin8690]

This is a pretty dumb argument. “Anime” just means “animated work” in Japanese, it’s a different word than the one we use in English.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Anime is literally short for japan animation

[@dillonpierce3537]

​​@@nagatouzumaki4047actually you're thinking of japanimation the old and unfortunately kinda racist that was abandoned when the community discovered the word anime which is literally Japanese for cartoon

[@Mohammad-km9kw]

I am not an anime fan, I am an animation fan. People have decided to draw a line on art and I am not staying in those lines

[@FosukeLordOfError]

That’s what I’ve been claiming since high school

[@ExpandDong420]

I'm an anime fan but I don't draw such a firm line, I just call it as I see it. If I watch something wanting anime and leave satisfied, it's anime in my book

[@Jayfive276]

I am not an anime fan, I am a things I like fan. And I liked Scott Pilgrim Takes Off. I don't care whether it's anime or not.

[@temporalwolf7054]

Staying "in those lines" is how art suffocates. So much of art across generations, time periods, and mediums exists because people saw the lines others drew on art and said "Nah, fuck that" and created in defiance of the lines. The lines do not matter, and staying in the lines is just hurting yourself.

[@ynraider]

Japanese consider ALL cartoons, as ANIME(Animation)... They also include Tokusatsu/Puppetry/CGI/Claymation as animations... Stop splitting hairs. "Japanime" is Japanese-originating CARTOONS...

[@Egavans]

The real takeaway from all of this is that Myanimelist (and their rankings) should not be considered authorities on anything. I'm amazed their dominance in the field survived them going offline for like a year when they got hacked one time.

[@ukyoize]

That is bot even counting FMAB bots

[@mayconlcruz]

In short, MAL is the reddit of the anime/manga media.

[@stoops187]

@@mayconlcruzthis. 100%

[@space1734]

I still don't get how Brotherhood is rated number 1 on that site. It's a good show, but definitely not that great lol.

[@eggy3231]

​@@space1734I think it's high ranking says less about the show and more about the demographics of people who use MAL. most of the top rated shows tend to be shounen or seinen, and I've found that it's a pretty common pattern for shoujo, BL, kids shows, or anything else not made for its main demographic to be rated lower

[@zephshoir]

13:57 This is what kills me. I understand that shows like Avatar and Castlevania are excluded for not being mainly japanese productions, but MAL features tons of Chinese and Korean shows that even less people know or care about. Come on, at least be consistent.

[@Miko35p]

If you have read the guidelines on what makes it into the database you would see they made an exception for Chinese and Korean animated shows, why they get a pass and not american shows?? Idk take it up with them, but my assumption is because they are eastern made just like anime

[@NeoDark93]

​@@Miko35pyes, it's because they're asian.

[@zephshoir]

​@@NeoDark93@fabrijdiaz7288 Which is dumb! Since when does anime include chinese and korean production? We even have different names for them, and if we do include them, then other Chinese, Korean, + other asian/western co-productions like both Avatars should be included. It is simply not consistent.

[@xHikaruIzumi]

If it's western it's objectively bad. - MAL staff probably

[@itsjustvin7630]

​@@NeoDark93isnt the creator of NGNL part Brazillian?

[@Wyglafff]

I would love a video on "French anime"! France has a really heavy culture of anime and manga. They were introduced to us in the 80s because they were cheap to buy and so broadcasted a lot! That's why we have shows like Wakfu that take inspiration from japanese anime. This is also why we have great voice actors in france. Because all those shows were dubbed (and also censored to be broadcasted at times when mostly young people were watching). They made CIty Hunter (Nicky Larson in france) a show suitable for youngs. Same thing for fist of the north star

[@jfess1911]

Interesting you mentioned Astro Boy. In its original run in the 1960's, it was viewed as just another kids' cartoon. Many didn't even know it came from Japan (the big round eyes confused us). My family just happened to have a guest from Japan who heard the music in the background, came in to investigate and explained it to us.

[@Cryptic.Message]

Interestingly, the big round eyes that Tezuka made popular with Astro Boy were probably inspired by the American animation character Betty Boop. Tezuka, not only being very inspired by animators like Walt Disney and Max Fleischer, was also a big fan of Betty Boop.

[@jfess1911]

@@Cryptic.Message Yes. I have read that the large eyes were also used to more easily show the characters' emotions. The "window into the soul" idea. Nevertheless, it confused me and many Americans who expected animations from Japan to look, er..., more Japanese. Then again, Anime often has other distinctive styles like characters with unusual hairstyles, or my favorite, kids who wear goggles for no particular reason (like Tai from Digimon).

[@ynraider]

Japanese consider ALL cartoons, as ANIME(Animation)... They also include Tokusatsu/Puppetry/CGI/Claymation as animations... Stop splitting hairs. "Japanime" is Japanese-originating CARTOONS...

[@jfess1911]

I find all the arguments about what qualifies as "anime" ridiculous. I mainly wanted to point out that people in the US had been watching animation from Japan long before the term "anime" even entered the English lexicon. Indeed it was not always differentiated from its western counterparts. As Geoff pointed out, even your definition of "Japanime" becomes mudded once you realize that ideas for content animated inside Japan does not always originate there; not everyone in Japan who is involved in animation (however you choose to define it) is ethnically Japanese; and even some animation written or directed by someone from Japan can be outsourced to another country.

[@Cryptic.Message]

@@ynraider "Japanime" isn't even a term that's really used by anyone anymore, the only people who use it are old heads who were anime fans in the 80s and 90s. Because that's when that term was popular, but anime was also a way more niche interest than it is now(in the West). The vast majority of the Western anime community does not use the term japanime anymore, the more generic "anime" is what is used by pretty much everyone now instead.

[@parazygone9567]

Labeling scott pilgrim not anime, is like calling Panty and Stocking a cartoon

[@BalrogQuote]

But... by definition, it is? Any anime can be legitimately called a cartoon.

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

@@BalrogQuote It depends. From my experience Japan refers to all cartoons as anime, but the US is more likely to refer to shows produced in Japan by Japanese leads as anime. This is why No Game No Life is still considered an anime despite it being made by a Brazilian who lived in Japan for almost his whole life, but why something like Avatar the Last Airbender or Teen Titans are not despite the heavy Japanese influence.

[@papabungle]

Panty and Stocking is an adult cartoon like South Park or Drawn Together or Mr Bigmouth. It's not an anime.

[@Miko35p]

Panty and Stocking is anime, Scott Pilgrim isn't. What are you talking about??

[@beebs4283]

i call panty and stocking a cartoon because it follows the conventions of adult cartoons in the west much more than the conventions of anime. i also call atla anime

[@cyberdsaiyan]

This "debate" happening in the western side of the community is quite hilarious to watch when you consider the fact that "Anime" is just a shortened term for "Animation". There's "western" and "eastern" anime.. but in general, all animated shows are considered to be "Anime" by Japanese, it's in the word itself.

[@pablocasas5906]

And not even in all Western countries, I've heard that in France the word for animation is "dessin anime" or just anime for short, so in order to differentiate Japanese animation from ones from other countries they call the "mangas" Kind of reminds me how here in Spanish-speaking Latin America some fans jokingly call anime "monos chinos" (Chinese monkeys), as a sort reference how cartoon characters used to be referred as "monos animados" (animated monkeys) and Chinese instead of Japanese as a joke against people that can't tell the difference between different Asian cultures

[@WickedlyChill]

Yeah but we not speaking Japanese so in English anime specifically means a style of cartoon dominated by Japanese creators but not exclusive to them

[@anhsu4854]

That's the literal origin of the word if you want to subtract the cultural context it's been used with. A certain style of animation from Japan through a western perspective to identify and categorize it. It's the same principle of calling both attack on titan and intial D mecha shows when there is are loosely defined aesthetics and other expectations or calling a hotdog a sandwich Yes it is hard to define but I don't think extending "anime" to all of animation like the Japanese do is a good enough solution

[@Dwayne971]

@@pablocasas5906 In France, we use the word "Manga" to describe Japanese comic books (we're the second biggest market after Japan). We also use the word "Anime" to talk about Japanese cartoons. "Dessin animés" is just the direct translation of "Cartoons". But yes, totally agree that this debate is really pointless, even more so now that adult animation is taken seriously on all sides of the globe. Even if France remains a big weebs nation XD

[@pablocasas5906]

@@Dwayne971 thanks for the clarification. Speaking about France, for some reason the opening song for Saint Seiya's, or Los Caballeros del Zodiaco, Latin America Spanish dub kept the European Spanish version which itself was a cover of the French version

[@DMBLaan]

This argument used to matter to me, and I'd draw the line on a more cultural level. But as I've gotten older and as animation, and even comics book art styles, evolved, I see anime/manga as a style or genre.

[@Skapo]

Honestly most of the tension comes from how much animosity there used to be towards anime fans. You would get laughed out of most comic shops if you went in looking for Manga. Hell I still get stink eyes and lame attitudes if I go into a comic store and ask if they have an anime or manga section. The reason most of the anime community got specific about keeping it specific to Japan was that Japan was pushing all kinds of boundaries that western shows wouldn't even touch. I mean I still can't think of any cartoons off hand that are somewhat serious romantic dramas & there are maybe a small handful that could be categorized as psychological thrillers in the vein of Perfect Blue or Erased. So anime fans got protective of the phrase as a means of both pride & as a means to differentiate themselves as a community from the comic community who openly ostracized the already looked down on anime fans. When I was growing up in the 90's & 2000's it was like painting a target on your back to call yourself an anime fan. So watching a bunch of people take this thing you love, then call completely unrelated shows "anime" felt like an attack against you personally. Since it took that kind of resolve to stay in a fandom that would have gotten hou socially ostracized. Most modern fans don't have that context any more. It's vastly more popular and the lines have blurred. I used to care more about it (and to be honest I still make the differentiation), but I care less about what other people call it now since the stigma isn't around in the same way it used to be. It feels less offensive & threatening to see studio execs & random casual fans call Castlevania an "anime" when they are at least still supporting shows like Attack on Titan and Your Name.

[@lillith7257]

@@Skapo idk i still see the stigma being there. Like when a bunch of Kpop idols talked about liking Made in Abyss they got randomly attacked for it. Sure it's less of a problem than it used to be but don't you think that this whole debate is still as strong as it is because that stigma is still around?

[@darkanddolly16]

​@Skapo you should just never let something you enjoy define your personality, or cause personal offense when someone else holds a different opinion about said hobby.

[@NeoDark93]

How can anime be a style or genre, though? It's not like every anime has a distinctive style, format or characteristic that's shared in all productions. It's too varied for that.

[@trustmeImadoc91]

Anime is just a French loan word anyway. Seems a bit pointless to make any differentiation.

[@PurplestLink]

I think all this is really revealing is the fundamental flaw of record-keeping and cross-language data archiving in the global animation industry. The main reason myanimelist exists (besides boosting the ego of people who place personal value on how much anime they watch) is to catalogue and organize anime and provide a space for reviews, discussions, production information, and any other relevant community information. When you actually care about animation and have that as your goal, then the laxest possible definition is always going to be the best outcome. Frankly, a general animation database, even if it has separate catagories for (anime, anime-inspired, co-productions, cartoon, ect.) would solve this issue completely and give exceptional non-eastern shows a chance to shine. They'll never do this though. Not because it's too much work, but because too many anime fans place Japan on a pedestal as a way to feel superior by supporting it.

[@Bionickpunk]

I would welcome anime databases evolving into databases for all animation, same with manga and comics. Just who knows how many animations and comics we are missing out cause we dont have spaces where thats made more widely available to notice and discuss about. So many YT channels dont talk about the wide depth of western animation and comics cause the loudest are super hero DC and Marvel, the niche stuff gets swept aside. Its where logic fallacies like the "western animation and comics are failing" come from, cause they trapped themselves in the bubble, and that bubble needs to get popped so we can have less ignorant discussions about animation in general. The whole east vs west argument should stop being a thing.

[@MaurDL]

perfectly put 🙌

[@Bionickpunk]

@@diydylana3151 Except it's not. It has been an Japanese, Chinese, and Korean database for some years now, it has long stopped being just anime related site.

[@acoupleofschoes]

TheTVDB is the general database. But it's just a database, just cataloging the info on series (and now movies). There's no place for reviews, discussion, or community. That's not really the job of a "database". MAL combines a database with forums, personal lists/watch history tracking, reviews, news, articles, etc.

[@shannonroberts3392]

​@@diydylana3151 "They make a lot of animation, and unique stuff that is barely released elsewhere at that." Those are pretty BIG fucking reasons WHY Japan is put on pedestal. What's not to like about that? Maybe if other countries released stuff 1/10 as engaging/ impressive as what Japan releases on a wide scale, year after year (even duds are visually amazing), they'd share in the spotlight, but they don't. So Japan gets all the attention. Seems logical.

[@CuateVolador]

"We must not let inferior western cartoons infect out glorious and superior anime industry", bro, imaginé thinking that in a post "Rent a Girlfriend" world

[@csabaszabo6859]

bro have you seen twinkle nora rock me?

[@tylorhobbs8920]

Dude, just accept that Scott Pilgrim Takes Off and The Last Airbender will never be as good as Conception or Ex-Arm.

[@JaxBlade]

This video came out right as I got out of discussion over Scott Pilgrim takes off being a Cartoon or Anime lol immaculate timing

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

JAXBLAAAAAADE!! How have you been lately? I loved your appearances on Bronies React!

[@lunarOntologist]

I think orientalist ideas and a fetishization of Japan are a big part of why the stances the Mal team takes exist. The reason they don't like calling it anime is because it lacks that foreign allure that most anime has. As you said with your comparison to the cal-arts style, people will simply argue something isn't anime because they *feel* like it shouldn't be.

[@IAMzap]

What do you mean it lacks foreign allure? It’s Canadian. That shit is exotic as hell.

[@Hawkatana]

@@IAMzap Still Anglo. Also I think some of the MAL mods are Canadian themselves.

[@dudere]

@@Hawkatana The, "I liked this band before it was cool" argument taken to cultures.

[@carolbaker2773]

I think you are spot on. It’s wild to me that the Asian fetish even extends to anime since most the characters don’t look anything remotely Asian. Face shape, hair color, hair style, body shape, height is all off. Like even ignoring the fashion hair colors, really only the male protagonist might have hair reminiscent of traditionally Asian hair texture and color.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The term you're talking about is weeaboo, a derogatory term for a delusional psychotic obsessed with japanese culture without any actual understanding of the genuine culture beyond their delusions of it.

[@Animelting]

When Porter Robinson released the video for Shelter, Reddit anime twisted themselves around this stupid ‘not anime’ argument. And that was just to post the clip there.

[@HolyRamanRajya]

That was still anime, although an imitation but still an anime. Scott Piggy doesn't imitate anything.

[@M.Nihankin]

@@HolyRamanRajyano, you’re correct: it’s just some cool anime.

[@MixMasterLar]

The bit about us no longer needing a line drawn for what is anime hits hard for an oldtaku like me: it was an important to have a lot of descriptors when the internet was largely still text-based and i couldnt easily check on shows within 15 seconds on KZbin to determine their tone and maturity level. It was also worth having around when the majority of any animation was strictly for a lower age group and finding stuff to watch was much more tracking down website forums and shifting through comments and less Googling "anime this season" But now? Now I really don't need to figure out if the kickass animation is Japanese or Polish or what have you. All I need to know is if it's a solid watch.

[@marcusclark1339]

honestly we still do, lets be real if we just become complacent to what is and isn't it just leads to the industry becoming worse there IS a line, and really this one isn't either, sure its made by a jp studio but it is a western work that already was inspired by it, its no surprise it FEELS anime but that's not anymore than say a "Totally Spies"

[@MixMasterLar]

@@marcusclark1339 We really don't, and yo did you watch the video? Geoff makes too good a case

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@marcusclark1339 "that just leads to the industry getting worse" -citation needed. also thats litterlally just a slippery slope fallacy

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@marcusclark1339 also hold up so anything "inspired by" a western work isn't anime? lol. geoff is right, you are an unserious person.

[@Steelblaidd]

Truth.

[@Stevem]

Topcraft was not Ghibli, This is a misconception, only a small portion of Topcraft's hired staff moved onto Ghibli, The real connection is Toru Haru who was the head of Topcraft who helped run Ghibli until 1991, but even he has said that Ghibli was not a followup to Topcraft.

[@mothersbasement]

Thanks for the correction!

[@jackalcrimson3630]

You and Yazzy doing the sponsorship using the Sonic scene is freaking genius and hilarious

[@noahbossier1131]

Also little Nemo was a Co pro diction between TMS USA and TMS Japan

[@TwoPairSA]

It's definitely the most inspired ad read I've seen since Chizuru's Granny segment in the Rent-A-Girlfriend video.

[@andynonymous6769]

She got the right hair

[@RatoInsano]

I do actually really enjoy his ads, it's the only channel I don't skip the ad reads because they're all unique and fun, not just reading a souless mass produced ad text. I still never by anything because ads never make me want to buy stuff, but I watch the ones here! Also Yazzy as Ramona is a perfect fit. ... Ramona cosplay when? (It's possible It was done already and I just missed).

[@Shalakor]

@@RatoInsano Some ads do make me want want to buy stuff, but then I see "$15 off" and get scared by how much the total price must be if that's just a fraction. I'm struggling enough just affording normal groceries, thank you.

[@ivanbluecool]

"is it anime" is not what we should be asking. The correct question is "it is good". I mean the whole anime debate is nonsense considering we have tons of cartoons that take inspiration from anime and it only makes them better as a result. Not the ones that just steal from it those are bad

[@vxicepickxv]

This is the objectively correct answer. Rent a Girlfriend is made in Japan and not good. Teen Titans is good and not made in Japan.

[@Owesomasaurus]

And like, its not like Japanese animators don't take inspiration from western animation. Its like music genre arguments: fans will define themselves with rigid adherence to a single genre while the musicians in that genre are like "OK but what if I take that Brahms melody and mix it with a Kate Bush sample and get Tom Morello to do vocals?"

[@zkeletonz001]

That is the correct question. Unfortunately, the answer is no.

[@lillith7257]

@@Owesomasaurus nah even musicians have their lines. remixes are a touchy subject by some.

[@BreakyOnline]

Netflix anime feels like the peak of "fuck it, we ball". No matter how crazy your idea is, you'll find a place on Netflix.

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

Its like the modern day Equivalent of OVA VHS's

[@mfmageiwatch]

No wonder they are almost all misses, with the very rare hit.

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

@@mfmageiwatch the same applies for ovas lol

[@Qwazzy2021]

They’ll let you do anything, but only for one season

[@AeonKnigh432]

​@@Qwazzy2021 Unless it's terrible, then you get 20

[@Dappis]

Their argument went to the garbage bin the second they started adding literal chinese cartoons to their database. Don't get me wrong, i love some of those chinese cartoons, but you can't pretend to only allow exclusively japanese cartoons in your database if you literally don't do that.

[@infiniteoctopaw]

Also how much of Japanese cartoons are inspired by Chinese books like Journey To The West, which itself dates back orally, and as very different shorts and folk myths in India 300 years before publication even in China. So, at this stage, what is the point, What is the debate? Nothing is "pure" Whatever that means anyways.

[@PKMNCappy]

Just want you to know that before I even started Scott Pilgrim Takes Off (or even watched the movie prior to that) I was referring to this as “the Scott Pilgrim anime” because I saw you say it was anime and I trust your opinion (or in this case facts) that much. Thanks for making great content and being a seemingly great person! :)

[@gabrielfeldinger6533]

More than anything this video makes me want to know more about the French-Anime rabbit hole

[@bernadettemontembault665]

As a french person, i can assure you, you have no idea how deep it goes

[@Miko35p]

There is no such thing as "French anime" just as there isn't "American anime". They might be inspired by anime, but there can only be Japanese anime (which is redundant saying it because it's just anime)

[@gabrielfeldinger6533]

@@Miko35p lol. lmao even

[@Miko35p]

@@gabrielfeldinger6533 nice argument

[@GoodwillWright]

Wakfu and Dofus are pretty good. Both definitely inspired by anime but Waku is more flash animated (budget TV-series that was backed) but as the series goes on, they use more traditionally animated techniques. Dofus is like a combination of both anime and flash animation techniques.

[@Kenosene]

I get the feeling that the entire reason for these anime gatekeepers to exist is because they have no respect at all for western animation. They see anime as this edgy, artistic, mature, thought provoking medium that has no space to share with the rest of animation that in their eyes is childish, immature, commercial and poorly made. Like it stains the purity of what they see as good and how the rest is bad.

[@ukyoize]

TBQH western animation kinda deserved it.

[@anonymouspotato3453]

@ukyoize Arcane? Spiderverse? Say what you will about children's cartoons but plenty of western properties are telling mature stories and pushing animation as an art form forward.

[@bluecloud4652]

This might be a reflection of the west's attitude towards animation, at least an older generation's attitude. Cartoons aimed at adults in that space tend to just be an excuse to swear a lot, and show lots of blood and nudity. This isn't the case for everything, but there is a clear bias in many cases that's internalised

[@Pantalaimon91]

It also very blatantly ignores the even higher level of commercialization and cut corners anime has baked into the very core of its production. Anime is STILL at its core a vessel to sell you manga and lite novels, honestly in a way Transformers and X-Men weren't and still aren't (they're selling you toys and action figures, you know, like gunpla). On top of that every studio annually shafts several series, plenty that see acclaim even, by criminally under funding it and overworking/under staffing its production. Bastions of the medium have stories of pushing episodes to broadcasters the night before or day of because of production schedules, and some where the budget just ran out at a certain point and they kind of had to make do. There's an element of all of this that's just blatantly racist and purposeful exotification of a foreign people and continuing the tried and true western trope of the "noble savage" just in a different trench coat.

[@randomcaerus]

I feel like the anime community is, like, the only place that the 2000's need for edgy distinction for the sake of gatekeeping really persists in a predominant form

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

The virgin: “Your cartoon doesn’t count as anime.” The chad: “Your anime is a cartoon.”

[@NobodyDungeons]

I personally love the art style of the Scott Pilgrim anime. It’s rare to see such cartoonish proportions and art style along side some serious plot.

[@kaitok1d731]

It’s because it’s overly cartoonish that I don’t think it should be called an anime. The style just does not feel like anime unlike other “anime” shows by western and Chinese studios that more or less fit that style.

[@infiniteoctopaw]

Then is Lego Monkie Kid anime because it's beautifully animated and has serious plots? What about clone wars, or transformers prime or Rise of the TMNT or Steven Universe? Anime is just Japan shortening the word for animation. So why do we talk about it like a genres?

[@Vinicius_Berger]

The CORRECT definition of anime: 1) It has to be 2D (either hand-drawn or digital); 2) It has to be made in Japan (by a Japanese studio); 3) It has to be made by Japanese people for Japanese people; 4) It has to be based around a Japanese property; 5) It has to be voiced originally in Japanese; 6) It can be Cory in the House.

[@duke86fan]

"drawn together was a warcrime against anime" but without drawn together we wouldn't have got panty and stocking so can we really call it a war crime? yes, the answers yes

[@TheDiabeticGameMaster]

Wait..... is that true?

[@duke86fan]

@@TheDiabeticGameMaster yeah, the creator literally stated they were watching drawn together and were surprised that the show was able to get away with stuff that offensive, so they decided to do their own version

[@hasch5756]

Things that led to the production of good anime in the future can still be called war crimes. Consider the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945

[@whathell6t]

⁠​⁠@@hasch5756 Good luck telling that to Ichimonji Hayato-Kamen Rider Nigo since he was literally tortured and experimented by Unit 731, especially that ones that escaped from Operation Paperclip. The dude was turned into a cyborg without consent and he made a weapon to withstand nukes. Luckily, he broke free from Takeshi Hongo-Kamen Rider Ichigo. But still absolutely infuriated and even angry at his country.

[@rinarina6247]

"Is it a cartoon or an anime?" to this I must ask the age old counter question "Por que no las dos?"

[@SilverShion]

I think it was the famous actor and skateboarder , Lucas Lee who said it best. "Whatever"

[@ianboswell]

This argument is actually really dumb. In Japan all cartoons are called Anime. So everything animated is anime. MAL counting Cyber Six, Scissors Seven, and Big-O as anime when they don't count Batman: The Animated Series or Scott Pilgrim as an anime. Just looking at it, it's COVERED in Science Saru's whole vibes. I've been a big fan of their work since Kemonozume and I'd say their entries in the Star Wars: Visisions were anime... and... Yep! Visions is on MAL.

[@CornishCreamtea07]

As far as Netflix is concerned, the word "Anime" is just a marketing term for "adult animation".

[@phlaryx7145]

If Scott Pilgrim the anime can’t be on myanimelist then other shows like Super Crooks, Afro Samurai, Supernatural the Animation, Moomin Valley or pretty much every madhouse marvel anime shouldn’t be on there either lol. Their reasoning for not putting Scott pilgrim or the Rick and Morty anime on there is just inconsistent and stupid all around.

[@rowanrawlz1871]

Lets see: Creator is asian, created by a prolific japanese studio, majority of staff are japanese, aimed at japanese audience pretty equally. etc etc frankly ridiculous standards if this isnt anime to them

[@essidus]

God, why is it that in nearly 2024, anime fans are still desperate to gatekeep? I remember when anime was coming up, before Toonami when you'd have to import or bootleg everything. Meeting other anime fans was dreadful, and the flame wars that would erupt over the smallest minutiae. It's been 30 years, damnit, this community needs to grow up.

[@GoodwillWright]

Me personally, I don't mind other people getting into anime, hell, I've gotten a lot of people into anime. However, I don't want people mixing up Dora the Explorer with say, Made in Abyss... for their sake. I make the distinction and let people know that anime allows certain things that others would find in bad taste. But if they are still cool with it, then go right ahead and enjoy.

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

That's because the focus isn't on gatekeeping. It's similar to the same issue as using the term Hispanic to refer to all Spanish speaking countries. You are correct, but like many you've also missed the point by lumping them together. However, media in the west seems desperate to try to lump every form of animation together, often citing how Japan uses anime to refer to all forms of animation. The problem is that this is not how the western community has described anime for the last 10 years. When the anime community uses anime, it used to be to specifically reference animation from Japan. This is why the geographic factor was such an important thing for animation. This was to distinguish them from donghua, such as The King's Avatar, which is used to identify animation from China. By comparison, Korean animation is just manwha (shortened from manhwa yeonghwa) due to Chinese influences. To simply fold all the animation into one anime is similar to using the term hispanic to describe anyone who speaks Spanish. It's completely missing the point and a bad faith argument at best. But like with most debates nowadays, the original meaning of the word was been lost and everyone seems to be focusing on a point that someone else in the media made up.

[@vxicepickxv]

I remember buying anime in the mall back before Toonami was a thing. Buying dubbed VHS was cheaper than subtitled VHS. I would have loved to get some on Laserdisc, but we didn't have a player.

[@GrimnirsGrudge]

It's probably less about it being anime, and more about it being scott pilgrim but they wanted an excuse to exclude it. Which I'm fine with, they could have just said that.

[@Bionickpunk]

Listen, dont mix Anime with Donghua and Aeni. Each of them deserve to be view on their own terms instead of umbrella under anime cause "east asian stuff look the same" type of nonsense.

[@ProjektTaku]

This is silly. Anime isn't an "aesthetic" or "genre", its way too varied to be counted as that, with many genre's obviously inside anime. Because anime, at the end of the day, is short for "animation", and so is a synonym for "cartoon". So yes, "Scott Pilgrim Takes Off" is an anime, so is Justice League, Batman Beyond, etc People just need to stop acting like the Japanese animation Community and Western animation communities are completely separate things.

[@Killer_Kotomibro]

"Anime fans come to anime to get away from animated toy commercials." Fans of Brave/Getter/Mazinger/Gundam/Zambot/Daitarn 3/Golion/any other pre-Evangelion mecha show that has made it into a Super Robot Wars: "The hell is this guy talking about?"

[@cathsaigh2197]

"Anime fans come to anime to get away from animated toy commercials." With how they're selling anime figurines I find this difficult to believe.

[@vexed_duck]

Geoff only mentioned it briefly, but Blue Eye Samurai is the best animated project Netflix has released since Arcane. Hideo Kojima called it his anime of the year, so it is kind of surprising that it hasn't made more waves in the anime community.

[@nightbarongaming3237]

I think that's just because it was released in batch without much promotion.

[@samwich3292]

I literally hadn't heard about it until this video, but it's definitely on my watchlist now.

[@vexed_duck]

@@samwich3292 It is still within the first month of release, so if you watch it soon, you’ll contribute to getting it renewed!

[@nightbarongaming3237]

@@samwich3292 Yeah exactly. I just remember watching it's trailer and it looked interesting. I didn't know when it came out and haven't seen any discussion around it

[@SkyonPyon]

Just sucks ass that one of the creators is a zionist

[@KyonAle]

Geoff knowing about the existence of Cybersix comic just made my day

[@randomcaerus]

I felt like I was sucked back to 5/6, somehow catching "late-night" programming

[@rodrigolealmartir5902]

For a moment I felt like when I was little, and whenever they mentioned Argentina in an American show I'd point at the TV be like "That's where I live!"

[@crash.override]

I'm ashamed to have first found out about it via SaberSpark

[@silentprophet777]

The main takeaway I got from this is Code Lyoko was a great anime

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

At one point in time it was a meaningful distinction, but as time goes on and our world becomes ever more hyper connected where everything infuences everything else it was inevitable that that distinction would eventually break down as culture has stopped being geographically isolated.

[@hannahpotter124]

I personally think that anime has become an aesthetic in the animation space. Sure 20 years or so ago there was a very strong line in the sand but I don’t think that anyone can deny the influence that anime has had on western animation and also the influence that western culture has had on Japan in turn. At this point in history, I think we can have anime and anime influenced. Avatar I think is highly anime influenced, obviously. I even count Castlevania as anime just because I can see the influence of Japanese animation. I also think that as we are slowly blending these lines because it’s easy with the internet and spreading animation is easy world wide because of platforms like KZbin, that we can just be animation lovers. If you love animation and like Anime style animation, that’s just your taste like claymation and stop motion can also be seen as a taste.

[@kylewilliams8114]

When Gigguk made a video saying Anime was a brand, I really disliked it, because a brand is something a single company owns. Anime is an artistic movement, in the same vein as Impressionism or Noir film.

[@GoodwillWright]

I can agree that both Avatar and Castlevania are anime influenced, I'd even add Wakfu/Dofus in there. But there is no way I would mistaken any of them for anime, and that's NOT a bad thing. It's what allows them to be their own thing.

[@AeonKnigh432]

Stephen Universe? Anime. The Owl House? Anime. ATLA and TLOK? Anime. Literally every good animated show I can think of has at least enough anime influence that I think it counts, to be honest. Genuinely can't think of one that doesn't.

[@AeonKnigh432]

​@GoodwillWright Okay but you're lying. Because they both clearly look like anime. Why wouldn't they be anime? What's that nail in the coffin that says "nope, not anime" to you? It doesn't exist. ESPECIALLY with Castlevania.

[@gota7738]

I still disagree with this. If anything the increase in cross cultural influence on design has drawn more attention to how the bigger difference is in staging, pacing, and timing. I'm not sure if this is down to regional differences in production practices or just cultural practices being passed down in the industry. I don't think these practices or the aesthetics they've cultivated are inherent to a region's industry but I do think they're ingrained. To even try and intentionally replicate them I think you'd have to go look at how and why the animation was made, rather than the end result. That said the growth of overseas collaboration or even just animators working globally, on a level above outsourcing, does allow for more cross cultural pollination and may further erode distinctions.

[@alanmcmillian]

Yay! Cyber 6 mention! Also, Is it possible that this entire debate is really about the fact that they used Brian Lee O'Malley's artwork as the basis for the character designs and art direction rather than giving it a more (big old quotes)"typical" anime look?

[@evansageser6943]

That would require defining what a "typical" anime look is, as well as answering why the Transformers OVA therefore qualifies despite looking identical to the rest of the transformers series. Also it would require ignoring that O'Malley clearly was at least partially influenced by anime when making his designs. It pretty obviously falls into the nebulous grey area between western and eastern cartoon styles. Put Scott Pilgrim next to Astro Boy or Panty and Stocking and one would be hard pressed without prior knowledge to determine which was created by the Western Artist.

[@alanmcmillian]

@@evansageser6943 That was my point. There is no "typical" anime style. And Science Saru productions can range wildly in their aesthetic. But narrow minded gatekeepers will always confuse their personal preference with what is real and disregard anything that doesn't conform to those standards.

[@EeveeFlipnoteStudios]

I live in Japan and when I talk to people about non-Japanese animated media, the Japanese person typically calls it an anime. One of my friends watches the Japanese dub of Adventure Time and she called it an anime, so clearly the way Japanese people think of anime is different from anime fans in other countries.

[@colbysbees]

Did you move to Japan or were you born there? I’d love to work in animation in Japan

[@appelofdoom8211]

Japanese persona definition of anime: must have a japanese dub (optional)

[@meaniezucchini5216]

Pretty sure this comes from a time when Western animation was almost entirely episodic and kid friendly. The distinction is getting less and less important for Western audiences as time passes and we see more Western series with character development and serious themes. But it really was a meaningful distinction for us back then.

[@pablocasas5906]

That kind of reminds me of a old poll that made in Japan asking people their favorite anime and, while the majority of the list was composed of anime, Tom & Jerry was the only cartoon included, because honestly, T&J is beloved all over the world That also reminds me that two of the most important anime magazines featured two Western animated productions in some of their covers. Animage dedicated a cover to When the Wind Blows and Newtype featured Who Framed Roger Rabbit

[@scienceface8884]

"I really like manga!" "But that's a Manhwa." "I really like comic books with an art style kind of like this one."

[@TwoPairSA]

I think the reason this all comes up (nowadays seemingly more so) is kind of related to a bigger cultural issue in a lot of areas that have traditionally been deemed "nerd culture": that being that people need to grow up and realize that their hobbies/favorite media has _(gasp)_ *become popular* . Lots of anime fans seemingly still believe they're the sole arbiters of a niche art form that has strict distinctions from other cartoons on the air... but its been three decades now since anime started airing on TV (in the US at least) and it's time to accept that anime and manga are more mainstream than ever. Goku and Luffy were balloons in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade this year! Anime is a wide world that's only getting wider every year and I think if people are demanding some kind of birthright citizenship test for the director to decide whether a show "counts", they're on the wrong side of history. It reminds me of the people who are still very upset when you say mobile games are real video games.

[@riolufistofmight]

In fairness, mobile games are *terrible* video games.

[@mexinerdentartaiment]

Yeah this is accurate, people (friends and family) use to know me as the anime guy 10-15 years ago and they still think I am but with the amount of anime the west now has access and how popular it is in the west now the average anime viewers probably know more shows than I do hahah

[@telzen8774]

Certain shows hit the mainstream, but that doesn't mean anime itself is. I'm in the US and if I went anywhere and started talking to people like "Hey you ever heard of (random anime currently airing)?" no one would know what the fuck I'm talking about.

[@mexinerdentartaiment]

@@telzen8774that’s not true bro had my old boss talked about zom 100 as soon as it hit Netflix. Shows that are streaming services are getting newer and talked about all the time. I see people of all ages bring up shows that just came out.

[@PatManDX]

@@telzen8774 It's more certain aspects of weeb culture have gotten popular and have honestly taken a life of their own. V-tubers and Mihoyoverse games really took off over the pandemic, and over in my country they've p much taken over conventions and are honestly mainstream, popular with normies. Older anime remains pretty niche tho.

[@darwinxavier3516]

I think the only reason the anime/cartoon divide is at all taken seriously is because "cartoon" has the stigma of being for kids and therefore lesser quality. The morons who try to excuse poorly written dreck with "it's for kids(therefore it's lower quality because kids don't deserve any better)" help to perpetuate the unfounded stigma. It also doesn't help when academic culture snobs complain about 80s cartoons being nothing but expensive toy commercials. When in reality it's because they believe all children's shows should be rigidly educational, yet a lot of the entertainment like Shakespeare they consider acceptable was once considered lowbrow. The difference between anime and cartoon became purely pedantic once there was enough crossover. Western cartoons weren't even originally "for kids". They were filler entertainment before movies enjoyed by all ages. Some one one day just decided they were for kids, then other people stupidly decided they were for only kids. Now we have anime fans trying way too hard to seem mature by distancing themselves from cartoons. When they should really just stop caring about the vapid opinions of the people telling them "cartoons are for kids".

[@tipulsar85]

In Edgerunner's case, The funny part is The first two editions of the original came out at a time when only Akira was known in the west. Ghost in the Shell had yet to be published, Appleseed was still ongoing, and Bubblegum Crisis was just escaping to the OVA scene in Japan. All three have since shown up on the source list for Refs (CPs term for a Game Master) between v3 and Red.

[@TheGolux]

Oh yeah, the original Cyberpunk tabletop game only came to exist because Mike Pondsmith is a big ol' japanese media enthusiast.

[@howlingarmadillo]

The only qualifier I've ever gone by is this: was it animated in Japan? If yes: it's an anime! If no: It's a cartoon! And if you're upset about anything being qualified one way or the other your standards are the problem, because anime and cartoons can both be phenomenal OR utter dogshit. There is no singular style you can point at that perfectly encompasses every anime or every cartoon. Anime and cartoons both have a massive range in quality from worthless dogshit to some of the greatest works of media ever made. Anime and cartoons can both be entertaining. Regardless of where you personally draw the line between the two, if you have a problem with something being called anime or cartoon you are the problem and should probably shut up about the subject forever.

[@wyattmilliken3320]

You have a qualifier too so you should also shut up

[@ukyoize]

Congrats, tiny toons is now anime

[@Bionickpunk]

There is the problem. MAL allowed Chinese and Korean animation to proliferate on the site (but not western animation), so they already dont follow rules of what an anime is.

[@Annabelle_UwU]

In my opinion, anime that has actual significant involvement with Japanese talent AND foreign-produced anime that has an "anime" aesthetic should both be considered anime because that's often what people will be interested in on sites like these. Ironic how MAL has Link Click while r/anime bans any mention of it. Makes discussions really hard lol.

[@ynraider]

Japanese consider ALL cartoons, as ANIME(Animation)... They also include Tokusatsu/Puppetry/CGI/Claymation as animations... Stop splitting hairs. "Japanime" is Japanese-originating CARTOONS...

[@geckopecko]

why the hell did they ban link click there?

[@mahiru20ten]

@@geckopecko because there's a separate subreddit for donghua/chinese animation

[@HolyRamanRajya]

@@geckopecko bigger question why Link Click is considered anime according to MAL.

[@mahiru20ten]

@@HolyRamanRajya MAL also allows aeni (korean animation) and donghua (chinese animation)

[@redisk]

I NEVER want to be on your bad side LOL, you beat them harder than David was by Adam Smasher

[@Hectoreo]

when I'm in a "moving the goalpost" competition and my opponent is MAL

[@MichaelHazell]

When Scott Pilgrim Takes Off released, I tried to send it to my friend via a MAL link and discovered it was not in their database. At the time I thought it might have been a time delay but I never looked into it. I am so thankful you made this video. The people running MyAnimeList have a serious problem and they need to backtrack on this. This is totally not the hill to die on.

[@tq1238]

AniList has been the superior site for years. Geoff called it AniChart since iirc they got famous from that side of their service first.

[@lol_russ]

Anime is just traditional animation process optimized and unburdened by the stigma that animation is just for children. Therefore animation in Japan was allowed to progress in technology, technique, production optimization, workflow pipeline and economy. If we are so stuck up on defining and discriminating pieces on media based on whether or not they have a certain percentage of Japanese talent. Then I don’t know what that makes us other than hyper focus on race or nationality

[@usvidragonslayer3091]

And i thought the "anime dub vs sub" argument is the stupidiest argument

[@eduardonavas9853]

Imagine a world where fandoms in animation put away their toxic tendencies and came together just to enjoy and celebrate the medium.

[@mayconlcruz]

In a world like that, fandoms (in the sense of that large movement that cultures the habit of make a piece of media a core value of your personality) doesn't exist.

[@ProjektTaku]

@@mayconlcruz okay, but can cartoon and anime fans stop acting like they're worlds apart from each other, and manga and comic fans join in the fact that its literally just the same medium from different countries, no different from "Miracleman" being from Britain originally and "Superman" being from american, yet both still counting as comics.

[@Kraus-]

The worst is those jabronies who get outraged when an anime adaptation isn't an exact copy of the manga. Bruh if you want the manga it still exists. By definition an adaptation is not an exact copy. You can't pace an animation the same as an individually read manga.

[@kleyperr6113]

I have to imagine it since it’s not reality.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The word fan stems from the word "fanatic", an explicitly negative term used to dehumanize specific groups of people (whether rightfully so or not is something I won't touch on personally).

[@CORV3TT33]

Netflix jail might no longer exist... but Disney+ jail certainly does, I cant watch Undead Unluck in Australia, its supposed to be on there... Edit... looks like Disney+ has made it available here, episode one atleast...

[@mothersbasement]

Yeah gonna make a video on that soon enough

[@ukyoize]

You can watch anything if you know how to use a computer

[@CORV3TT33]

@@ukyoize I'm aware, I just only resort to that if there is no other option...

[@n1hondude]

I already agreed that Avatar IS anime, "f*** you, fight (us)". But allow me to add even more argumens: 1) if people don't consider Avatar the Last Airbender and Scott Pilgrim anime, why do they consider the likes of "God of High School" and "Tower of God" as such? Just because they were made in Japan? They are KOREAN MANWAH WEBTOONS!! 2) people argue that "anime" is short for animation, and while that IS true, even in Japan that is vague because it includes: CG animations and even GIFs 3) Just like in Geoff's other video, anime has to FEEL like anime AND be story-driven, which is why the terminology of the wrong anime IN ENGLISH (in fact, in any langauge that isn't Japanese) HAS TO EVOLVE the same way that "b!tch" is almost never used to refer to a female dog but something else instead. ATLA is anime, just "American anime", Castlevania IS anime (especially metnioning that it's originally a Japanese IP anyway), Trece is a Filipino comic originally so the Netflix show is arguably a "Filipino anime" and so on and so forth.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

If it's not japan It's not anime

[@kitten48484]

Everybody knows all those Japanese people who animated it and work at an anime studio in Japan are really just Americans. Sorry weebs 😢

[@nujevad28]

The original Transformers and Avatar were animated partially by Japanese studios. Some anime are made by Korean Studios. I guess it doesn't matter who makes it.

[@Bionickpunk]

@@nujevad28 Korean studio argument doesnt hold, in fact why is Korean animation even on MAL to begin with.

[@neverpaint691]

ANIME is a Japanese colloquialism which comes from shortening the world "animation."

[@Bionickpunk]

@@fanror And now its getting even worse when some westerners put Chinese and Korean stuff under Japanamation.

[@U.Inferno]

I have a hunch that there's a drop of Orientalism in this debate that for the most surface level aspects isnt necessary to acknowledge, but should inevitably touched upon if it continues.

[@stuartotaku]

I always thought MAL was kinda weird but yeah this seals it for me. I sat on Air Bender because I was still mouth breathing then and fancied the show below my superior taste lol. Now it's one of my number 1 shows of all time. I'm sad other mouth breathers are still losing out for no reasons.

[@rickxhoshinji]

A Mother’s Basement video discussing Scott Pilgrim and Transformers was not something I was expecting but more than I could hope for.

[@Aarzu]

the art style of the Scott Pilgrim anime also makes me think of another anime that I've been watching that very clearly takes a lot of inspiration from "western animation", particular series like Powerpuff Girls and Invader Zim; Panty & Stocking with Garter Belt. If Scott Pilgrim isn't anime, neither is that one. Regarding the debate as a whole, I think it's also important to keep in mind that anime and western animation have taken inspiration from, borrowed from, and given homage to each other since the two culture became aware of each other. Without Disney, anime wouldn't have gotten the start that it did, and without anime, Disney wouldn't have had the inspirations that studio did. So, to a degree, I honestly don't think that it matters. It gets so murky that even trying to make a solid, universal definition for what anime is becomes an effort in futility.

[@jacksonlee1883]

It made me happy to hear the Owl House get a shoutout. It is a western cartoon that take inspiration from Anime and in the fight scenes really flexes good direction and shot composition

[@claypot]

I think the other nail in the coffin not mentioned here is that MAL has Super Crooks listed on their website. An anime adaptation of an American comic, written by an American, and distributed by Netflix. Hm…

[@jimonaldo3108]

If i run MAL, the only thing that should matter is whether its useful for the community for SP to be listed on there. If users are asking for it and if everyone in the room can be an adult about their animated show categorization then fuck it, IMHO.

[@TheM8]

Anime is an art movement. Now that it's been spread out we are no longer in the anime era we are in the post-anime era of animation.

[@xSkysilver]

Scott pilgrim art style reminds me of panty & stocking

[@covertpetersen2573]

I genuinely thought the Scott Pilgrim anime was being made by Studio Trigger until I saw it was Science SARU

[@Shayden52]

To be quite honest, whenever a controversial anime like Scott Pilgrim comes out I think they should just hold a community vote over whether it should be added to MAL or not. The line between what is and isn't anime is too blurry to make definitive calls, so it should just be added if the majority of users of the website agree that it is anime.

[@Bionickpunk]

Never allow an anonymous group of people decision rights on anything.There is no way to be certain that the voting would be honest and not flooded by bots and trolls screwing the results. This will certainly happen cause MAL has a large group of users that dont know what they are talking about, and some of them are mods that share that line of thinking...which is why we have this mess to begin with.

[@muddyboy999]

Guess I better switch to AniChart

[@Zarrius05]

I don't understand the argument of "well in japan all animation is called anime" words mean different things in different languages especially words that are just taken from one language and used in another

[@slashb7836]

Honestly the strongest argument I can think of for Scott Pilgrim Takes Off being anime is... just watch the fucking opening and tell me with a straight face it's not.

[@rurijo3169]

I feel like Geoff’s Canadian pride was also hurt a bit when they said it wasn’t an anime Get ‘em Geoff

[@PhillKaggitz]

I mean, Scott Pilgrim is a story about a loser simping hard for a girl with 7 ex boyfriends…. If Rent-a-girlfriend is anime, Scott pilgrim can be too.

[@khoipham8303]

The entire argument ultimately brings one benefit: Making Scott Pilgrim more popular. So, in a way, it's definitely a win, either an anime or not.

[@gota7738]

I think what interests me on this topic is how the nature of nation's mass production within a region can affect the feel and aesthetics of that output. To the point that audiences can recognise that the overall body of ouput has a distinct feel and aesthetic difference to the animated works of another regions. Of course cultural influence is unignoreable, and would only be reinforced by that machine of industry. However the nature of animation production is such an odd buiness of being so creatively driven yet also incredibly difficult to do without a mechanisation of the process. Strict organisation and coordination is key to a bearable working environment and quality work. When american animation tries to replicate the aesthetic of japanese animation or vice versa, you can still feel the difference, no matter how close they get. It's why these coproductions are so fascinating. As global communications opens the door to collaboration, how will our industries influence one another not just aesthetically but on a structural level, if they do at all? Right now I do think there's use for the word 'anime' and I do think there's a line, if a very thin, zig zagging and almost worn-away-at-some-points one. However there might come a day where it doesn't, or maybe it will have just shifted placement. I love animation so much.

[@GoodwillWright]

Probably what allows anime to be anime is the fact Japan can work people that hard. You won't really see it normally from "western" places because most people wouldn't do that type of work for a burger-flipper salary. So I don't think the line will be blurred anytime soon.

[@ethanhayes7038]

You're so right though. AtLA's animation still has the underlying vibe of a western cartoon, and Panty and Stocking is still unmistakably anime. These two worlds are on some deeper, fundamental level incapable of perfectly imitating each other, and so it seems the only things that truly bridge the gap are international productions. Scott Pilgrim comes a lot closer to looking like an authentic American cartoon than Panty and Stocking did but you can still just _feel_ the anime in its core DNA.

[@gota7738]

@@GoodwillWright that's not how animation works

[@GoodwillWright]

@@gota7738 Animation and work culture go hand-in-hand. I'm not saying that's the only reason that makes anime anime. But do you think anime would still be sustainable if Japan was paying their animators (Taiwan, South Korea, China as well) the same as you would be paid in say the US? Plus only working 8-10 hour days and having privileges? I'm not saying that other places can't make "Japanese-like" animation. But it would be an incredibly different process from board to board.

[@gota7738]

@@GoodwillWright I think it would be more sustainable yes. Time is useful but good animation comes from organisation, thought and skill. Exhaustion undermines two of those and hampers the last one. All the time in the world won't save a poorly organised production and you need more than hard work for animation, you need knowledge and problem solving. To be clear I don't think what differentiates anime is quality. What unites poor quality to good quality anime and differentiates the output from other nations output is a particular approach to pacing, staging and timing.

[@poodlemuffin]

To prefix, all animation has equal potential to be good regardless of its origins or what anyone calls it. My subjective labelling for both animation and graphic novels has been where did it originate and who was the primary audience. Created in Japan for a Japanese audience; anime. Created anywhere in the world for a western audience; cartoon. Same with music - Korean boy band who started out target a Korean fan base; K-pop. Korean boy band who starts out targeting a western audience; pop.

[@TheShockVox]

Makes sense for me.

[@HolyRamanRajya]

If Picasso gets commissioned to do a Japanese realism painting, does it still make it part of Picasso's quintessentially abstract art portfolio? Why are North Americans so obsessed about getting this into an anime. Why can't it stay as a cartoon, unless if y'all think cartoons are bad. Do anime watchers only exclusively watch anime and other Japanese stuff. More importantly who cares about rules on directors and production and what not? rules are made to be broken, even by the likes of Netflix trying to see what can get passed off as anime and pay animators less. Eventually things will turn into a theseus situation, there would no longer need for an anime tag to exists for non-Japanese. I say non-Japanese as the Japanese in their own language will obviously call every animation anime but that interpretation is pointless to consider since people outside use anime label to name and distinguish a sub-field of cartoons.

[@FanOFTrueHeroes]

It's not champagne, it's only sparkling toon juice.

[@FizzleBurger]

I still think that your mic drop moment on this discussion was when you said anime is an "artistic movement" (back in the Avatar video). It's built on people having ideas that influence one another, and those ideas are never gonna be constrained by borders. The most interesting discussions on any art movement are the ones that don't get hung up on gatekeeping or semantics.

[@lazycouchman]

If a majority of the people making the creative decisions and a majority of the people animating a show are Japanese then I think it's anime. So, yeah Scott Pilgrim is anime. I mean Studio Ghibli's works are made by a majority of Japanese people but have been based on western authors works and they're still called anime. I thought the whole purpose of calling it anime was to differentiate between different countries animation works. Like how Chinese and Korean shows/movies/books are called their unique names.

[@Bionickpunk]

Sadly, Donghua, Manhua, Manhwa and Aeni are on MAL and have no clear filters for each of them, they are still put under the Japanese umbrella terms of Anime and Manga, which just frustrates me from a accuracy perspective. Like if the site is gonna have East Asian animated and comic media, you better properly sort it.

[@pablocasas5906]

Ghibli is a good example, but I think Nippon Animation is a better one considering that their most famous series, the World Masterpiece Theater, adapted tons of works of Western literature into anime, shows like Heidi, Marco, Anne of Greeen Gables, Pollyanna, Daddy Long Legs, The Black Brothers, Lassie. There were also many anime in the 80s and 90s based on Western literature like The Three Musketeers, Zorro, Little Women, The Wizard of Oz, The Travels of Marco Polo, Lensman, Captain Future, etc.

[@TheyCallMeSharkface]

I rly needed this level of annoyed petty pedantry rn, thank you for make

[@freegaming9820]

Anime is cartoon, cartoon is anime.

[@leof1n156]

there is no workable definition of 'anime' that would both INCLUDE everything people clearly count as anime (cyberpunk edgerunners, devilman crybaby, etc) and also EXCLUDE things that people argue cant be anime (scott pilgrim, atla, etc.). anime, (and manga) has evolved to the point where trying to strictly define it is pointless, its an ART MOVEMENT, one that ORIGINATES from japan sure, but not one that solely exists there and nowhere else

[@KeyThrast]

I was so ready to skip that Bokkusu ad, but that was so perfectly done. 😂

[@IceBloo]

Pluto is so good

[@coleabraham4350]

I was nervous about it since i read the manga a long time ago and the author mangas are great, but when i saw it i got my jaw closed and loved it

[@coleabraham4350]

​@@Miko35pi was talking about pluto, but yeah Scott pilgrim is a comic

[@HayabusaRyuu]

Best sitcom

[@haruzanfuucha]

It's all cartoons to me.

[@cherriegetison6093]

Omg, someone actually acknowledging that Pantheon exists. (Pantheon the 2022 animated series, because that name has horrible search engine optimization.)

[@MrDegan2]

I often fall on the avatar is a cartoon side of this debate, largely because I feel calling it anime does a disservice to it's legacy as a cartoon and the impact it has had on so much that came after. But Scott Pilgrim is an anime, just by every measurable metric and its sill to even have an argument about it. It's not like some of the others where there's a back and forth and merits to both sides, this is just the way it is.

[@SuperMunchkin43]

i enjoy how you used a starscream voice for reading out the myanimelist statement after talking about transformers previously

[@cassiedevereaux-smith3890]

My take: It's all cartoons, man. No need to overthink it.

[@zurierre]

Literally !!! Japanese cartoons, chinese cartoons, american cartoons etc they're all just cartoons and people are just extremely silly.

[@cassiedevereaux-smith3890]

@@zurierreyeah. There are certain stylistic conventions that develop in various cultures and which said cultures tend to use more. But at the root, when you talk to most Japanese folks, 'anime' is just a word for the same thing. It's us who try to put things into boxes of 'anime/not anime'. In Japan, Looney Toons are anime, Scooby-Doo is anime, South Park is anime, whatever. I'm not saying there's no use for using a word to refer to a certain set of stylistic conventions, but hold that word loosely, y'know? It's all the same medium.

[@zurierre]

@@cassiedevereaux-smith3890 I agree that there are different stylistics conventions but I think core element of this stupid debate is an otherization of non-western media and a need to distinguish it from western cartoons to make seem more mature and cool