Did Catherine of Aragon and Arthur Tudor consummate their marriage?

[@marionarnott750]

What persuades me that Katherine was telling the truth was when at Blackfriars she challenged Henry to.swear on his conscience. that she had been no maid. And he was silent. Henry was pious in his twisted way. And there was Katherine being utterly convincing. She always could get the better of him in an argument. Of course we'll never know for sure. . .

[@pbohearn]

She wasn’t about to go down without a fight, and she never left England after she arrived. She always maintained that she was England’s true queen. Very painful separation from her own daughter but she held her own with courage. She loved her people and they loved her. Politically it was a very big mistake for Henry with his own popularity I think. Anne was not well liked, in fact, she was hated by most. The people saw her as a homewrecker.

[@afroditaelsa8962]

@@pbohearn I mean, she kind of was...

[@obcl8569]

@@afroditaelsa8962 hahaha 😁 But (with the help of her family in the continent) she did put up a fight! For years! Henry wanted rid of her immediately. She even *died* slowly, living into Anne's reign as Queen of England.

[@afroditaelsa8962]

@@obcl8569 oh yes I know, I love KOA, what I meant is that Anne was kind of a homewrecker

[@obcl8569]

@@afroditaelsa8962 that makes sense! Apologies for my misunderstanding!

[@tessat338]

Philippa Gregory doesn't even purport to be writing historical fact. She takes a premise or one side of an argument and imagines how people would have had to have acted to make the premise plausible. She theorizes "What If?" and lets her story flow from that possibility. She is a good and compelling writer who can prompt us to ask questions but we shouldn't use her for an historical source because that is not her intention.

[@thehistoricalcollaborator]

She has stated her work is factual

[@meredithc2755]

I don’t put much stock in anything Henry VIII might have said when he was trying to get out of a marriage. Poor Arthur!

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Agreed

[@chookfeather]

Also what he agreed to when he ran the risk of having to pay back her dowry. There was no way The Tudors would let he go back to her family, she was in a way a prisoner.

[@maryh4650]

I like the phrase 'HISTORICAL FICTION'. It's on the back of all my old Jean Plaidy books and I think most appropriate for Philippa Gregory's books too.

[@dirgniflesuoh7950]

Exactly: Historical Fiction is filling in the blanks to make a novel, or other kind of storytelling. Some times facts are twisted to make a point, or simplify. Some times it drifts into alternate history, in part or completely.

[@amandagrayson389]

Have to say that Jean Plaidy never ignored the historical framework as much as Philippa Gregory.

[@amandagrayson389]

Oh- and Plaidy often left notes as to why she wrote things a certain way or made a certain decision. She seemed to have researched the history she was fictionalising fairly well.

[@LaPetiteBoulin]

I love Phillipa's novels but they're historical fiction. She doesn't just fill on the gaps but completely ignores facts about some figures.

[@nadiabrook7871]

I LOVE Jean Plaidy!! XXXX

[@theresecatalano4017]

The only ones who know are Catherine & Arthur, and they aren’t talking! I tend to agree with you Claire…I think they did, but that’s just my opinion 🤷‍♀️

[@amandahugginkiss55]

I have always believed that Catherine was too pious to lie about such a "soul damning" subject. Anne Boleyn is another English queen who swore on her eternal soul about what she did or did not do. Lying about anything in those days was a most terrible sin and this is why I think these ladies spoke the truth from their hearts.

[@curlytopkitty2468]

@@amandahugginkiss55 well said....!!👍👍👍

[@lililillililil4028]

@@amandahugginkiss55 i agree

[@melenatorr]

A little note on this very thoughtful and clear exposition: The information about bedding and the comments from Arthur afterward were from the 1520s, and not contemporary with the actual events. Garrett Mattingly, in his biography of Catherine, writes that actual contemporary commentary barely mentions Arthur except for an episode of dancing with Lady Cecil. There was a major consultation, in fact, about whether Arthur and Catherine were too young to have shared apartments and whether Arthur should go solo to Wales, and Catherine join him later. Arguments in favor of this would have come from the recent death of Catherine's only brother, Juan, dead at 19 on his honeymoon, and his death attributed to exertion as a husband. If Margaret Beaufort was involved, I can see her objecting as well. In the event, the couple did go to Wales together, but the fact of this intense discussion hints that there was no real attempt at consummation after the wedding. As noted in your lovely video, the Spanish ambassador to England, Dr. de Puebla, was excoriated by Elvira Manuel, Matron of Catherine's household, when he sent correspondence to the Catholic Kings that the marriage had been consummated. Dona Elvira insisted, in 1502, that the marriage had not been consummated, had de Puebla withdraw the letter to Isabel and Fernando, and wrote herself to them. Also, as you say, part of the bedding ceremony is the aftermath, the inspection of the sheets to prove the consummation. There is no mention of this with Arthur and Catherine. None of this proves anything, but it does throw doubt on the question. The bedding ceremony wasn't unknown in England (Henry V and Catherine de Valois experienced it), and if there was a bedding ceremony for Arthur and Catherine, it makes sense that the inspection would follow. True she could deceive and lie, but she would have been stupid to blatantly put to Henry at the Blackfriars, the question, if she hadn't been confident of the answer.

[@annfisher3316]

Lovely to see the younger generation carry on an interest in Tudor history! 👏

[@michellerhodes9910]

I have always believed Catherine. Also, people do not necessarily need to be seriously clinically ill to have physical and psychological difficulties with consummation. When I started nurse training (in 1981 - ooh dear yonks ago) I met several elderly women who claimed the same but had had long marriages to otherwise well-looking and even handsome men. There was even clinical evidence of the truth of their statement. Because it was an embarrassing and intimate problem and there had been very little counselling and specialist help way back when they were married and divorce was still scandalous and hard to get, they had just lived lives with the situation. There is also a cheeky folk song sung delightfully by Maggie Prior "My husband has no courage in him" which aptly sums up the problem lol As you rightly say though, Claire, it is just an opinion. All the best. Stay well.

[@lililillililil4028]

I agree. I think she was telling the truth too

[@Dawnsdelightsart]

If Spain had only demanded Catherine's dowry back, King Henry VIII would've stepped back on the divorce.

[@daver8521]

I agree with you, Claire. I can remember (barely) when I was 15. Had I been in Arthur's place, there would have been no doubt about the consummation of the marriage! Had he been impotent, one would expect much more court gossip to have survived.

[@wyowumin]

Agreed and historians now know that Arthur wasn't the sickly boy that he's been portrayed as being and was actually a perfectly normal and healthy boy and young man who probably died of sweating sickness.

[@obcl8569]

I've thought about this a lot this last year. Have LOTS of thoughts, truly do not expect anyone to fully read this comment, it's guaranteed to be insufferably long 🙄😁 I was reading about Marie Antoinette last night & her early marital troubles - after SEVEN years of failing to consummate the marriage (they were married at 14 & 15 years old), her brother Joseph (later Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II), paid the couple a visit & concluded they were simply "two complete blunderers" in the bedroom - they either had no interest, or had no idea what they were doing. Happy ending though! After his visit, they sent him a thank you note & had their first child soon after. It seems a lack of education had been the problem after all! So, after reading about the future Emperor's visit to Versailles, I revisited my thoughts on Catherine & Arthur - a thought progression that is more normal than it sounds after a pandemic year of obsessive Tudor reading hahaha - and I think there's a scenario where both things can be true(-ish)... A number of things are at play that make me think we could have a similar situation with our couple: Two 15 year olds, one a sickly introvert, another a likely frustrated & scared girl in a foreign land. They were in more ways children than adults. Arthur's immaturity comes through in every contemporary commentary I've read or interpretation I've seen. It seems plausible that Arthur, at least, could have been naive & clumsy enough to not be completely sure what he was doing, & it's not impossible that Catherine only knew up to a point, or didn't want to humiliate her groom further, or couldn't easily communicate delicate things with him! Arthur was a visibly, chronically ill youth; the act itself is a vulnerable & potentially mortifying moment for anyone; they carried the weight of practically every person they knew on earth counting on them to perform what is already a super intimate act & with equally inexperienced partners... Add to all of that what brilliant Claire points out: they had no reason on earth to believe they were in a rush nor to think pernocting 7 times was all the opportunity they'd have to consummate their marriage! However... I definitely think *some* attempt is likely to have taken place during at least 1 of those 7 nights 😁 Given a combination of all of these things, I think it's entirely possible they never *fully* consummated the marriage - but given more than 7 embarrassing nights with a stranger, they were likely to have done the deed soon thereafter... unless fate had allowed them to set a historical precedent for Louis & Marie Antoinette & turned those 7 nights to 7 years 😉😁

[@camijaque2291]

I think exactly the same, in addition to adolescent children they always brag about how sexually active they are and in many cases they are just inventions.

[@obcl8569]

@@camijaque2291 Exactly right! As true now as it was 500 years ago 😁

[@beth7935]

I'm really interested where you read Arthur was "visibly, chronically ill"? The bio I read of him said there were no records of that, but actually some to the contrary, like that he was "a superb archer, & can dance right well & pleasantly" (or something close to that). I think often when someone dies young of illness, it sort of ends up being assumed that they were always "sickly & weak"- like Edward VI, but I don't believe he was actually a "sickly" child either. I'm also really interested in what contemporary commentaries depict Arthur as immature? I'm not aware of many contemporary accounts of his personal qualities full stop, sadly. The book I read looked a lot at the upbringing & education he had, & it was _designed_ to make him grow up & become independent quickly, by giving him responsibility at a young age- being sent to Ludlow aged 7, ofc, to learn how to rule in the Council of the Marches, where he was making his own decisions & judgements by 12 or 13. He was raised from birth to be king, & to take his duties seriously, which would include marriage & heirs, & young people in general grew up so much more quickly then- our idea of everyone under 18 being a "child" would be ridiculous to them. However, I don't think Arthur had spent much, if any, time socialising with young women, so I seriously doubt he was "mature" even for a 15yrold in the sense of being confident with women. I could see them not quite getting it right the 1st couple of nights, but after at least 7, & probably more, I'd really think two 15yrolds would work it out, unless something was seriously wrong. And I don't know about Catherine, but I _really_ can't see Arthur having zero clue what he was meant to do. Henry VII was never completely secure on the throne, & given how keen he was to secure his dynasty- I'm not sure "no hurry" was quite right; he had Arthur married off almost the moment he was old enough- & the fact that he'd want the marriage to be legal (alliance & dowry, we know he wanted that dowry!), I'm pretty damn sure he, or someone he nominated, gave Arthur at least basic instructions. It does seem Louis & Marie Antoinette didn't get any, or not enough, but I'm not sure how comparable the situations are- at the very least, that was late 18thc France, & this was early 16thc England, & the French & English courts seem very different to me, even in the same era... You think _your_ comments are insufferably long? Ha!

[@jamesgleason9004]

I have thought of that story also.

[@renshiwu305]

George Costanza: "I got so focused on it. I started to panic and _boom_ I lost it. I tried everything. I was talking to it. 'Please wake up. Do something.'" Jerry Seinfeld: "They're mysterious little fellows, aren't they?" George Costanza: "I hate 'em." Jerry Seinfeld: "You know, it happens to everybody. It happened to Houdini and he could get out of a trunk underwater with his hands in chains. But he had a problem with that. The miracle is that it ever happens." George Costanza: "It's like a magic trick. Sometimes I think it would be easier to bend a spoon mentally than to make that transformation."

[@Tawroset]

I think Catherine was telling the truth. Even Henry quailed when she challenged him, basically, to call her a liar. He didn't mind lying when it suited him--what about the wild accusations about Anne Boleyn? He wasn't too squeamish to accuse Anne of not just infidelity, but wanton promiscuity and incest with her own brother! True, Catherine might not have been the saint she's often seen as, but to imperil her soul by lying--not just once, but over and over--that she was a virgin when she married Henry? People who scoff at that have NO IDEA how seriously people like Catherine took (or take) their religion. She would have moved heaven and earth to hang on to Henry, and certainly to protect her beloved daughter Mary--but not if it meant lying her way into hell. Hell was as real to Catherine as her love for her family, and she would have been pretty much a fool to lie to the whole world (including the Pope). Catherine was brave, but she wasn't stupid.

[@Andrea-Marie]

Thank you for this amazing video. As an Austrian I'd kindly like to bring your attention to Marie Antoinette an Louis XVI. Both teenagers (14 and 15 years old) have been allegedly unable to consummate their marriage for 7 years - according to historical records - for two reasons: 1) Her brother (the later Emperor Joseph II.) called them simply "bungler" and 2) Louis XVI. might have suffered from a phimosis which have been allegedly operated . So, it might be possible the young Tudor couple had similar issues dispite of their juvenile emotions and desires.....

[@darlenefarmer5921]

Gregory's books should be noted as "Historical Fiction Only"...Great question, Lucy! Thanks Claire!

[@rycoli]

Agreed

[@mcpossum]

❤️

[@Shane-Flanagan]

I admire how cool and composed Claire always remains when discussing Gregory's books and baseless historical theories when it must really frustrate her and understandably so. I'd love to be a fly on the wall if Claire and Philippa were ever to meet. Claire may just have some choice words for her 😡🤔👎📚

[@birdyfilovingheart6365]

I doubt it, she explains well enough that Ms Gregory is a novelist. I think Claire is above that way of thinking.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@birdyfilovingheart6365 Just a light comment nothing serious but if they did meet and Philippa kept pushing her theories, I doubt Claire wouldn't be too impressed or happy

[@beth7935]

@@Shane-Flanagan I think Claire's fine with _fiction-_ more tolerant than me, lol- but I remember her not being impressed cos Philippa claims some of what she wrote is TRUE when it's SO not. Like, apparently saying Anne Boleyn was guilty of at least 1 murder, & there was something else in a vid recently- I think she said it's likely that Richard III wanted to marry Elizabeth of York, &/or that they were in love, _EW..._ Honestly, I think she's wrong in the head sometimes :D

[@lynn-marieflechner5406]

@@Shane-Flanagan just because she writes false events of history doesn’t mean that’s what she believes.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@lynn-marieflechner5406 I never said that she did although Claire did say before that Philippa does purport some of her theories as fact without any evidence in her authors notes and on her website.

[@cathryncampbell8555]

Wonderful to see you, Claire! Re: Arthur & Catherine -- we'll never know. Sending Catherine with Arthur to Ludlow is intriguing, however, as women in a consummated marriage were not supposed to be left without lawful means to enjoy continued connubial relations. Catherine was capable of using the papacy when she cared to (especially when she opposed Henry's annulment) & ignoring the pope at other times (when the pope repeatedly *implored* her to retire to a convent). So it's really difficult to call....

[@wyowumin]

And...for Catherine, the daughter of Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon, the art of diplomatic dissembling would have been in her DNA. She was an extremely intelligent woman and could be a very wily and manipulative woman and was a truly pious woman. I think that she would do whatever she thought to be necessary for God, her daughter and her husband's soul, take whatever vow, oath or confession and sort things out with God later. I admire her tremendously. She was one of three of Henry's wives who would have, in my opinion, been a far, far better monarch than he ever was.

[@pbohearn]

@@wyowumin in fact when he was off fighting, in his absence she assumed the powers of the monarchy and administered them quite competently. I think her mother was stronger than her father; she was a warrior. But I’m curious, who do you think the other two queens were? Certainly not Catherine Howard, and Jane Seymour we know so little about. So there’s Anne Bullen. A divisive figure, to say the least; there is Catherine Parr and there is Anna of Cleves who made out the best of all of his wives really. Married him for seven days and got a lot for it. My wager is that you said Anne B and Ann of Cleves. And I suppose if Anne B was anything like her daughter, than of course she would’ve been a very able queen. But I don’t know if she was. I don’t know much about her, but there’s some good writing about Catherine Parr being a conciliator reuniting Henry with his children before he died and saving her own ass when she was accused of being involved in extremist religions etc.

[@BlackCatMargie]

Thanks for a great question, Lucy! I've only read one Phillipa Gregory book, and found it to be insufferable. I'm not a fan of novels written in the first person, unless the writer is particularly good at it, and PG doesnt get close. As to the question at hand, well, it's one I think we'd all love to know the answer to, but I lean towards believing Catherine's account at the annulment trial. Arthur was still young, and possibly sickly, and we all know teenage boys develop at different rates. It is entirely possible that he had still not, um, got the hang of it, at 15. He would have been under a lot of pressure to perform, so there isnt much likelihood of him admitting his impotence to anyone really. Bragging about his prowess would have been a pretty natural thing to do under the circumstances. If he couldnt get it to work, he would have been petrified of the diplomatic and reputational backlash. We will never know.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

I've always believed the marriage between Arthur and Catherine was never consumated because like the majority of the people at the time, Catherine was God fearing and superstitious. I find it hard to believe she would have lied and risked the damnation of her soul. That too is partly why we know Anne Boleyn was innocent as she maintained her innocence during her last confession in the Tower with Crammer. She too would not have lied and risked damning her soul. Catherine and Arthur may have attempted to consumate the marriage as it was their duty but it possibly came to naught. I don't like to think of Catherine as liar because it would sort of prove Henry right and god forbid that! It surprised me that Claire thinks it's possible that Catherine and Arthur did consumate their marriage but as she says, we'll just never know.

[@hannah6769]

you are right. But I don't think I was surprised about her saying that it could be possible because she has to cover both opinions. I like to think that Catherine of Aragon did't lie and in my heart I don't think she did. But at the same time she had to do what she had to do, so??? I don't really how I feel. All I know is that Amazing women such as Catherine and Anne did not deserve what happened to them. May they rest in peace.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@hannah6769 Agreed, rest in peace all those who Henry wronged and mistreated which is a very long list.

[@lililillililil4028]

You're right, again 💯

[@mariamarchese8405]

As I try to argue in my comment, the Catholic Church in Spain or Italy, where I come from, would assolve a lie if it was thought to serve God's will. We can only speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if a confessor gave a one-time absolution to the queen, for all the times she would need to repeat the lie about her first marriage. I myself find it contradictory and have the same feelings as Hilary Mantel towards my Catholic upbringing, but that's the way it is - or at least was, till not so long ago.

[@wcfheadshots240]

Dear Claire, thank you for the Frank presentation of facts. And the honest answer. We will NEVER know. Great job!

[@kimmie_kimm_kimm]

I always believe that the marriage was consummated. We have two teenagers here and they were together for a few months. I think it might have happen at least once during that marriage. I look at how ‘frisky’ teenagers are now. But if Catherine lied it was to save herself. Only Catherine and Arthur know for sure……..

[@gullwingstorm857]

I've never doubted they consummated the marriage. There has always been talk in royal courts when royal marriages aren't consummated, and there would have been talk at the time - long before Henry met Anne Boleyn. Yet there is no record of any such unconsummated talk until Henry wanted to divorce Catherine.

[@GradKat]

I also wonder if Katherine wouldn’t have confided in someone if Arthur wasn’t up to snuff! But on the other hand she didn’t become pregnant during her marriage to Arthur, and we know she was fertile. AND she was deeply religious - would she have risked her immortal soul by lying? It’s a puzzler; I can’t decide either way.

[@jeannebowes2898]

A friend years ago , was married for several years and “ nothing happened”. But teenagers given the go ahead ? TY for the video.

[@kimhaas7586]

I’m going to guess that Catherine had the hymen from hell and that Arthur couldn’t complete the job. That would explain why Henry didn’t disagree with her at her trial. If Arthur had a chronic illness it might have required too much exertion on his part.

[@moretyquira]

Hymems don't exist in the sense most people perceive them as, and how 'tight' you are down there depends on a number of factors. Studies have been done that prove that most men can't tell, despite boasting that they can. So Henry probably couldn't tell anyway, and you're talking about something that had happened decades beforehand, so he could've easily embellished the experience in his mind. So like...he probably legitmately either didn't know or he was just lying (from his perspective).

[@pheart2381]

The midst of Spain bit always struck me as overly dramatic,a bit like overcompensating. Difficult to tell after all this time.

[@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814]

@@moretyquira just of curiosity.. which studies have been done about that?? loll

[@moretyquira]

@@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814 I definitely remember reading about a study where they showed men drawings of vaginas, some of which were virgins and others weren't. Results varied. I did a lot of research on this last year because of a project I was working on and I DEFINITELY remember reading about this because I showed it to a friend of mine.

[@kimhaas7586]

@@moretyquira au contraire. Those of us who have had “hymens from hell” know very well, and can painfully recall, the numerous attempts it took to force the suckers to yield. So while it may be true that most women have hymens that yield gracefully, those hymens that mount a strong defense are memorable to both parties. *This* is the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Arthur went to Spain, tried to invade, and failed. Probably tried a couple of times. The experience was probably traumatic to both so they stopped trying for awhile. Henry tried again 7 years later and succeeded. I suspect that Henry was a little more experienced in such things and probably encouraged Catherine to impale herself on him using gravity to get the job done. Yes, indeedy. Did she lie? Only a little. Was she a virgin when she married Henry? I’m guessing she still was. Hymens are real. They exist. Maybe some of us don’t have them or don’t have tough ones but we are not talking about vagina tightness. We are talking about a piece of tissue that partially blocks the opening. It’s a real thing.

[@philcrawford7760]

I love this stuff keep up the good work I started reading the Hever castle book I love it again keep up the good work Claire and thanks.

[@melenatorr]

I forgot - Thank you for playing Riu, Riu Chiu! One of my favorites!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@dorothywillis1]

If the marriage had been consummated Catherine's argument that it was legal would have been based on the Pope's dispensation. But she took her stand on her virginity at the time she married Henry. I don't know if she ever mentioned the dispensation, but it certainly was not the first thing she mentioned.

[@nadiabrook7871]

VERY INTERESTING video, as always, Claire!! I would call Philippa Gregory's books faction!! In other words, people shouldn't take them as pure facts!! XXXX

[@Isabella2335.]

Exactly

[@robbiemclaurin1852]

You did such a wonderful job with a question such as this one....I guess we will truly never know....

[@CopenhagenDreaming]

Judge a date by how they treat a waiter, and judge an historian by how they answer questions from a kid. I am judging you, Claire, and you are not being found wanting. :-)

[@rachelhayes3376]

Congrats on your new book, but I have missed watching you every day. You are the best Tudor professor.

[@lese91]

As someone who used to wholeheartedly be a Catholic and truly believe a greater power was always watching me and my sins would literally cause me to burn in hell, I can’t see how someone as intensely religious as Catherine could lie about something like this. Also, the guilt of repeatedly sinning by lying before and after her second marriage would’ve torn someone genuinely faithful apart. Plus, I feel she would’ve agreed with the idea that marrying Henry would’ve been incest if she had consummated her marriage to Arthur. For me, the only way she could’ve been lying was if her super-devout ways were just for show, which seems like an exhausting charade to keep up.

[@camijaque2291]

amen!

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Same, I find it hard to believe she would've lied and risked damning her soul. Not someone like Catherine

[@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814]

i agree with you about catelyn's feelings and i believe she would have believed that marrying henry after being wife and having relationships with his deceased brotherwould have been incestuous WITHOUT the papal dispense. That was the point, papal dispensation forgive them of their sin , textually was a 'exemption from the immediate obligation of law '' meaning having that document made legal and valid for the catholics henry viii and princess catalina to marry each other., the pope had the authority to decide to whom give it as saint peter sucessor, and the point they got the dispensation was to make it impossible for someone in the future to argue its validity, remember henry then WANTED to marry catalina and likely her parents urgued him to obtain the dispensation from the pope to protect her future.

[@lese91]

@@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814 but was the dispensation not founded on Catherine swearing that she had not consummated her marriage to Arthur? I could understand her putting a papal pronouncement over usual ecclesiastical law if the pronouncement did not hinge on HER lie.

[@lese91]

@@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814 your comment actually has me wondering if the full text of the dispensation has survived either in Rome or in England because I’d love to read it

[@kartos.]

"Not historically accurate" is putting it (far too) lightly and nicely.

[@dirgniflesuoh7950]

Love this. The most common answer about a lot of historical, but private events. We do not know.

[@--enyo--]

Something I wondered when Claire discussed how showing the bloodstained sheets after marriage was a Spanish tradition but not an English one: Could that have caused some misunderstanding on the part of the Spanish present at court and abroad? Obviously not all (e.g. - Cathrine’s own testimony etc), and obviously later during the annulment people had reason to say one thing or the other, but I wondered if the some of the Spanish could have taken the no-show of sheets and assumed it meant no consummation?

[@beth7935]

That's a really interesting point!

[@shayadayan3343]

Also, many virgins don't bleed the first time

[@Solo-lt3il]

I've always wondered whether Catherine and Arthur actually knew much about the birds and the bees. Arthur bragged about visiting Spain but maybe he didn't know what he was talking about. Anne of Cleves was apparently quite ignorant and she wasn't a teenager when she married Henry. I'm ready to believe that Catherine was telling the truth, although, interestingly, it was sometimes taught that some lies could be forgiven. But as Claire said, we don't know. Thanks for the video, again, I appreciate it that you try to be as balanced as possible.

[@maggiesmith856]

Parents may have thought that the way to keep a daughter pure was to keep her ignorant, but I think boys would be taught the facts of life quite early.

[@glorialange6446]

Excellent video talk. And absolutely the best and really the only explanation and answer possible. And Claire is right in her opinion, also, I think. I too think that 2 15 year olds would have managed it at least once in their time together, since it was normal, sanctioned, and legal! That said, Claires speaking of Arthurs ill health... even so, good days and bad days usually happen during illnesses, and he did live for some time after marriage...

[@annalisette5897]

It is true we will never know the truth of this matter. What makes the most sense is that Arthur and Catherine did the best they could and maybe/probably believed they had consummated their marriage as was expected by their powerful families. Henry was 18 when he married Catherine and he may have had more knowledge. Maybe that was the basis for Catherine reminding Henry that she had been "a maid" when they consummated their marriage. A couple hundred years later there was another teenage marriage wherein the young couple apparently did not have all the knowledge needed to produce children. This was the marriage of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Though historians have long said Louis needed a small operation, etc......, modern research has found information that Marie Antoinette's brother told Louis how to complete the act seven years after the wedding! Children soon followed. The Tudors were not Victorians and did discuss bodily functions, but how accurately might a young, inexperienced couple be able to describe exactly what happened? A source, which I believe was contemporary, claimed that Arthur and Catherine were not allowed to live continuously as man and wife because the families feared the risk to Catherine of childbearing at such a young age. My best guess is that there were a lot of uncertainties in the Arthur/Catherine union, which were interpreted in the best light of changing circumstances. I think Catherine told the truth as best she knew it and that she was technically a virgin when she married Henry. (The whole "level of affinity" beliefs were ridiculous and best illustrated by Henry admitting sexual relations with Mary Boleyn, "but never with the mother". By the morals of the day that sounds very incestuous!)

[@melvawages7143]

I read the story that Arthur was sickly came after his death, a way to explain his rumored impotency when actually he and Katharine both became ill with a fever. Katharine recovered and Arthur didn't.

[@onemercilessming1342]

People keep confusing historical fiction and dramatizations with scholarly research. That speaks to the power of visual media to persuade.

[@Katherine_The_Okay]

It's good to see that you're up and around again. I hope you're feeling better!

[@leticiagarcia9025]

Claire, I absolutely agree with you. It’s good to see you again.

[@SamL-213x]

I also read the 3 sisters 3 queens.. it was amazing loved it too because I learned so much about Margaret and Mary Tudor .. (took the info lightly since not everything is accurate)

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Read it too. Would've been nice if we got all three points of view though not just Margarets

[@SamL-213x]

@@Shane-Flanagan I thought they were originally… but I liked that they chose her since she isn’t researched as in depth as the other two ( from what I could find)

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@SamL-213x Yes she is a very shadowy overlooked character who deserves more attention. Historically she has been written about in negative terms and was portrayed negatively in the book. She had a hard life dotted with heartache and disappointment but she soldiered on nonetheless. A strong lady

[@SamL-213x]

@@Shane-Flanagan one of my favorites for sure

[@beth7935]

@@SamL-213x Me too, Margaret's probably my fave Tudor!

[@bennylawrence6221]

Claire, would love to hear more about the Spanish hearing at Zaragoza!!!

[@jenniferschultz7178]

I hate this conversation! We have the words of Catherine herself telling us her marriage was not consummated. & yet 500 odd years later we're still debating the worth of our words! If the words of one woman are not enough Then none of our words are worth anything! The actual debate here is who do you believe - Henry or Catherine? Do you believe that Catherine was telling the truth or do you believe Henry? Do you believe the woman who says no or the man that does everything to get the world to believe him? It's the same debate today as was then - how much is a woman's words worth?

[@Suza-w1z]

I totally agree with you Claire, I think they did consummate their marriage. Plus, (as far as I know) during the Great Matter, she never gave an explanation as to why they didn't consummate their marriage. (Usually when someone is trying to prove something, they would).

[@vanessa.jasmine]

King Henry VII toyed with the idea of marrying Catherine himself, but the Spanish crown said No! Would he have entertained the thought if he thought he would be "sharing" the same woman as his son? True the only ones who know are Catherine and Arthur, but I think Henry would have know too. I don't think I only speak for myself when I say it can be very obvious when it is a woman's first sexual experience. When Catherine told Henry "And when ye had me at the first, I take God to be my judge, I was a true maid, without touch of man; and whether it be true or no, I put it to your conscience." Henry was silent, his thoughts probably went to their wedding night.

[@SamL-213x]

I was just watching both those shows again today and wondered the same!!! Amazing timing! I personally don't think she did with Arthur. She seemed honest and would be afraid of lying or “sinning” As always thank you Claire! Love learning and listening to you! This time period and each individual person are so fascinating. Catherine is my favorite of Henry's wives. Next is Anne of Cleves Then Anne B Then Jane And the last set of Catherines eh... I liked Parr until the whole Seymour drama and lack of understanding or support towards Elizabeth

[@SamL-213x]

Been watching since covid broke out… the Tudor trivia with Teasel and Tim are so great too.

[@jojohnston4113]

Excellent comments and historical information. I think it must be so difficult to figure out what people were doing so long ago!

[@NolongeraPissedoffAmerican1159]

I think that little girl is a LITTLE TOO YOUNG to be wondering about the consummation of anyone’s marriage. 😳

[@lila6117]

I agree at least once, thank you Claire

[@anthonywoodhurst551]

Imo, they wouldn't have gone to Ludlow together had they not slept together at least once. I think the understanding for everyone was that he managed it at least once

[@jamesgleason9004]

I also think Catherine was left with no option but to do as she did when it was clear Henry was done with her. Catherine was married to Henry long enough to know full well what he was willing to do, let alone capable of doing. You have to marvel at the whole thing -- the aunt of the Holy Roman Emporer, the Catholic Church completely on her side -- and she still couldn't win...though Henry doesn't seem he was much worth fighting for.

[@pbohearn]

Excellent analysis and discussion of the issues and questions in attempting to address this important historical mystery: did Katerina of Aragon “do it” with Arthur or not? Aside from witness reports, Catherine’s own statements etc. we can also look at human nature and what could possibly get in the way of them consummating the marriage. Unlike his brother, Who rejected one of his wives with the rude phrase, “I like her not” upon meeting Anne of Cleves, Arthur and Catherine had spent time together and seemed to like each other; it wasn’t the case that they hadn’t met until their wedding day. a 15-year-old boy of normal health and heterosexual interest, if he’s anything like his younger brother with a huge libido, and being a prince, there is no way in hell he’s not want going to want to do it as soon as it is possible with his new Wife. So what may get in the way? As you mentioned on the video poor health. But also, perhaps Arthur was a homosexual. Is there any descriptions of him from that time that would lead us to suspect that perhaps he was either rather effeminate or clearly attracted to other young men or had a special male friend? Usually royalty flaunted this if they wanted to. Regarding his poor health, my questions would be how many months or years did Arthur stay alive after his marriage to Catherine? Clearly she never got pregnant we would know that and given her fertility, at least to get pregnant if not to deliver children who stayed alive, she was very good at that for many years so she had no problem with getting pregnant. Unless he was quite sickly by the time of his marriage it’s very hard for me to believe that they did not consummate the marriage although she never got pregnant and maybe that was good enough for her. And after all, she was Henry’s husband for over 20 years by the time the divorce proceedings came up and there was no way in hell that she was going to declare that marriage annulled. They sought out and received a special dispensation from the pope and that makes it 100% legit. I have another question that I’m going to try to videotape you and that has to do with whether Elizabeth knew of the plot by her supporters to overthrow her sister, Catherines daughter, Mary,. Mary never put her on trial for that, but there is great suspicion and some evidence to suggest that she at least knew about it. Even from her own behavior. For a mini biography on Queen Mary I please see my story in medium: link.medium.com/wprvGEZ4Ojb

[@karawilliamson106]

Welp! You got me!! I couldn’t get past the sheets!! I thought they watched royals on wedding night..as uncomfortable as that would be.

[@kimvara7152]

I was looking at your doll in the back of Anne Boleyn where did you here cause I need it

[@thehistoricalcollaborator]

Great video, Claire. Thank you!

[@jol4342]

I thought Catherine was older than Arthur by a couple of years, so I was interested to find out she was only 15, the same age as him. It's a very "sexy" age! We'll never know the truth, but it's hard to believe they didn't. I know Catherine was very religious, and the words she spoke to King Henry in the court, (which you quote), when he was trying to get an annulment were compelling, but on the other hand she was determined to remain Queen of England, and protect her daughter Mary. I love your channel, and I love the Anne Boleyn (?) doll you have on the shelf behind you. It's so sweet. Thanks for a very interesting question and response.

[@amandagrayson389]

I love the way you state that Philippa Gregory is ‘inspired’ by historical events. I wouldn’t be that gracious. One can fictionalise history and write a great story and remain within the framework of historical events.

[@courtneyhouser8008]

Henry the 8th is one of history’s most fascinating figures. I imagine he was fascinating in his own time. And while I know better than to hold him to the standards of our modern day. I still find it more than ironic knowing he must have never once even pondered his own hypocrisy in his sudden repentance for “taking his brothers wife” to marry a woman’s whose sister he had taken.

[@GreatGreebo]

Claire: will your ON THIS DAY IN TUDOR HISTORY Merch be available again? I’ve handed out so many of your mugs (they make everyone smile and many have come here to watch your videos). I’ve just now looked at your store (I haven’t looked in a while) to do my annual Xmas shopping for some more mugs AND canvas bags with that print and it is gone🥺. Please let me know❤️. That specific print really draws people in and gets them laughing but also gets them to check out your channel!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Hmmm.... I haven't removed anything. Here's the link tudor-society.creator-spring.com/ But Spring might have removed products themselves.

[@anneboleynfiles]

We'll look into it as that's very odd

[@GreatGreebo]

@@anneboleynfiles Teespring must have removed them? I can find the newer Teasel prints with your link you posted above but the ON THIS DAY print is gone :( On your STORE TAB I can still *see* the On THIS DAY prints but the link brings you to a *404 page not found* sight. Please look into it if possible ❤️❤️ That print is such a great conversation starter and brilliant for getting new people to your channel ☺️ THANK YOU!

[@pollydolly9723]

Thanks Claire.

[@mariamarchese8405]

I'm no expert in Modern History and I can only speculate, but I'm from Naples and I was raised a Catholic, so I immediately thought that Catherine might have been reassured by her confessor (I wasn't thinking Sir Thomas More himself!) that a "white lie" can be excused and absolved, if it serves a greater purpose rather than the liar's own interests. As a teenager I was told so, to my shock, by my own confessor. I wouldn't be that shocked to find out Catherine had been absolved "once and for all" at some point, for every time she would have to lie. But also, an old aunt of mine would willingly sin and then confess, she thought it was the way to go! :D Maybe Catherine had no reason to lie, but if she had, I suspect that saving her mortal soul was hardly a concern within the Catholic Church, if the lie would prove "useful" for the True Faith.

[@antonmiles8167]

In the midst of Spain? Sounds like a line from Carry On Henry.

[@naurrr]

oh wow, I never thought about cystic fibrosis. fascinating video!

[@lisabelmontage]

I think they did . As a friend of the family said two fourteen years old running around and not consummating it would be unusual. They definitely were close .

[@lisabelmontage]

Added to that the portrait of Katherine as a young widow shows her body language. Looking down can indicate in my opinion guilt.

[@judymac2590]

I know this is off topic, but figured you would best answer! Re: films of Gregory's books had two different stories about Margaret Beaufort's step brother Welles. One showed him being killed by Edward IV while another had Cicely, Eliz of York's sister married Beaufort's brother Welles. What story is correct?

[@gypsydonovan]

The Cecily story. But I would guess she just combined people. I haven't read the books but John, 1st viscount Welles, did marry Cecily of York. Possibly to prevent her marrying someone else & inspiring further Yorkist sentiment. His brother, Richard, & nephew Robert were executed for rebellion by Edward. John was involved in a rebellion against Richard iii but that worked out for him. Henry became king & John lived out his life into his late 40s, living well as the king's uncle.

[@cdonorab]

She only had one Wells brother, John who married Cecily of York. The other was made up. She did have several other half siblings though.

[@renshiwu305]

In _The White Princess_ TV program, Cecily is portrayed as being excited at the prospect of marrying Viscount Welles. Really? Her father and brother had been Kings of England. Cecily had previously been engaged to the heir to Scotland and later a Scrope. John Welles' father was a minor baron and his (John Welles') viscountcy was a byproduct of his relation to the king, no more. John Welles was her senior by nearly 20 years. His sister's and nephew's house was an enemy to her house. I doubt the real Princess Cecily would have been so excited for her marriage. Philippa Gregory's books - and the works stemming from them - are generous with poetic license.

[@janicesnyder9305]

One of the great mysteries history has left us. Kind of like the identity of Jack the Ripper or where is Jimmy Hoffa's body buried.

[@matteusconnollius1203]

We'll never know if it was consummated or not, it's kind of sad and embarrassing that this poor dead 15 year old prince was forced to have his sexual potency disputed and speculated about after his death

[@jamesaron1967]

I don't know if they consummated the marriage or not, but it sure strains credulity to the limits that they didn't at least once. The only conceivable way Catherine's assertions were true is if Arthur had some genital problems. I wonder what if any evidence for this might be true exists? We'll never know.

[@harpalk8096]

Queen Catherine of Aragon. The one and true Queen

[@MaverickSeventySeven]

What an erudite and Respectful compilation of historical 'facts' - all that talk about consummation - did anyone blush......:-) What evidence is there of that First night together of Henry V111 and Catherine? Would not Henry have 'noticed his new wife's "condition" and commented?

[@maearcher4721]

He didn't know Catherine Howard wasn't virgin,and was shocked when he was told. I heard most times men can't actually know, because how much discomfort woman is in varries and woman doesn't need to necessarly bleed or bleedmuch etc.

[@BTMmarineLM]

The most controversial wedding night is human history!

[@annkelly0072]

Very interesting! I've never come across the theory of COPD & CF. Is there any evidence put forth by historians showing these genetic abnormalities in either the Tudor/Beaufort line or the York/Woodville line?

[@CMDDK]

Maybe Arthur didn't quite know what constituted completing the task?

[@teacup.demitasse]

I share the assessment that the marriage was consummated and Catherine was not above lying about it. Cui bono? No one was even suggesting the marriage was unconsummated until it behooved Catherine to marry Henry without impediment. And you are absolutely right, even the most devout would have no problem going to their grave lying for god. Henry would honestly have no idea about the truth. He would only have known (and want to believe in the beginning) whatever Catherine told him.

[@maggiesmith856]

I always believed that they did. They were living as man and wife for five months; Arthur wasn't an invalid; fifteen is old enough to have sex, and they were under pressure to consummate the marriage.

[@maryannlockwood7806]

I always take historical fiction with a grain of salt. if I find the subject matter interesting I do my own research. Thanks for this, Claire! I sure hope you’re feeling better because I’ve been told that pinched nerves are painful. 🤭

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Yes they are good for escapism and giving you a feel for what it was like back then but it's always good to fact check and what better place than here with Claire.

[@christinetanguay949]

They claim they had a bedding on their wedding night that was witnessed.

[@Angel-nu7fm]

Most definitely they did it....give 2 teenager and night and a couch and lookout, much less their own bedroom. Wasn't there something on them awaiting to see if Katherine was pregnant after Arthur's death...of course Henry didn't publicly contradict her in court. He'd look really bad saying he knew all along...

[@paoladimeo412]

I really enjoy your videos❤️❤️

[@marlenewaldron4690]

Where can I read more about the cystic fibrosis theory?

[@marlenewaldron4690]

nvm found it. didn't scroll far enough.

[@helenmarshall3799]

Fantastic narration for and against. My personal feeling is they didn't and the fact that Catherine became quickly pregnant on her marriage to Henry may well be another indicator that they both had tried but it was not successful. Another opinion though.

[@moriko8928]

no matter if she consumated the marrige or not matter not. the bible said " if a man marries his brothers WIFE its an unclean thing becouse he has uncovered his brothers nakedness they will be childless." and it also says " if a man dies and leave his WIDDOW childless his brother shall take her into marry him. " sorry im reading the bible in my own language so its not word for word the same but it should be about the same. in other words what the bible is saying is that a man can not take his brothers wife and marry himself. its not okay to marry someone who is already married. and yes people during the time the bible was written could be dumb enough to do so.

[@Lyndell-P]

🇦🇺 🦘 This question of whether consummation took place at all, is still open to conjecture. Nevertheless, very interesting to hear about the short .... marriage between Catherine of Aragon and Arthur Tudor. (A short marriage due to Arthur's untimely early death). Also interesting are the facts given about Catherine's later marriage to Arthur's younger brother, King Henry VIII. cont... A good question Lucy! Although your question unable to be answered with any certainty, I'm in no doubt that if the answer was known (for sure) that Claire would know. Although Claire's own opinion is worth noting too. cont... A great video Claire! Most informative and I always enjoy your videos. "Thank you" so much Claire 💓👑👍

[@Katherine_The_Okay]

I haven't watched the video yet (just the question) and, short answer: It's based on a Pillipha Greggory novel, so probably not...

[@thorpepark1997]

Yeah they did!

[@martinnamigliarini8461]

If Catalina had accepted Henry as leader of the Church of England after being dismissed from the court, would she has been meet ver daughter Mary on more than one ocassion? Or was it too late?

[@somethingclever8916]

I agree we just dont know. But if they marriage was not consummated there would be word of lack of consummation Historical record is well aware when royals were bedded. We know of eleanor of aquaintaine's near sexless marriage with the King of France. There would be some information supporting the lack of consummation

[@irairod5160]

I think they must have, or at least, must've tried, at least in the beginning, because as you said, it was a condition for the marriage to be valid.

[@joshyishot]

I missed you Claire!

[@robinhumphrey2692]

Excellent! Thanks Claire!

[@kdcats4092]

why would it make any difference? He died. Many young widows then and now remarried. Her original marriage was contracted for political reasons rather than personal love or attraction. It would not be unusual for a King to attempt to arrange a marriage between his younger son and an elder son's betrothed or widow after an elder son died.

[@clintgreggory2549]

I like your videos very much. I have a question/comment . I appreciate how A.B. has been rehabilitated and we grasp truth from ALL the fiction. Could you please tell us , so we get the bigger pic, what the dark deeds Anne did or encouraged regarding the miserable Mary Tudor another female victim of Henry and perhaps Anne?

[@joanrankin2827]

Fascinating

[@ferencpusztai5201]

What did Catherine say, we Arthur never consummated their wedding?

[@patriciasaldanha3165]

HI CLAIRE 🥰👍 I don ' t know if the deed was done and what can be undone after all these centuries - But I did have a good laugh 🤣and I hope I ' ll be able to keep my head Take care ♥️ and give us more virginal🙏🎹 stories🤣🤣🤣▪️🤣

[@heatheralice89]

This such an interesting discussion 😀

[@marilynthomas8036]

I don't think the marriage between Arthur and Kathrine was consummated. I have read many things stating that Author was to sickly to do the deed. There weren't even any rumors about him being with anyone at all let alone Kathrine. He was 15 and should have been somewhat sexually active but from all accounts was not.

[@clare5one]

In a way this is irrelevant, as HVIII received a Papal dispensation to marry Catherine.

[@renshiwu305]

If I had E.D., I'd be embarrassed. If I were a teenage male, I'd probably boast of my virility with my mates, consummation or no. Dauphin Henri and his wife, Catherine de' Medici, had sexual problems as teenagers. Dauphin Louis-Auguste and his wife, Marie-Antoinette, had sexual problems as teenagers. The compulsion to lie about a failed wedding night were twofold: Arthur's vanity and the imperative of diplomacy. Consider that Henry VIII would have been affronted if his wife were spoiled goods, as it were. Remember how poorly he took it when finding out about his wives' (Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard) lack (alleged or not) of sexual purity.

[@camijaque2291]

amen

[@siraksleepmastersiraksleep9814]

i agree completely !!