Mockup Walkthrough 2/3 - The Black Gate Opens (from “Lord of the Rings”)

[@jjrussell]

I like how the reason for a lot of decisions involving patches is "... because I like it". That is a fabulous reason

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Ha, yes! "I like it" and "It sounds good" are indeed very valid reasons, no matter what the theory says. :-)

[@jadonharper1493]

“A day may come when the courage of the pencil tool fails, but it is not this day!” Great mockup once again

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you, my preciousss... ;-)

[@asparon]

This Horns-theme always gives me goosebumps. Great work! Thank you!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@labete19]

Yet again proving, you can use the pencil tool to create beautiful orchestral music. Tired of seeing so much folks say it's not doable. Its not the pencil nor the finger that makes a good composer, but the mind behind each extension. Thank you for continuing to share with us your process and help us newbies learn about efficiency and technique with timeliness.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching! I’m glad this is helpful to you.

[@jondellar]

Very... relieved actually to know that some of the tricks I've stumbled across are valid and used by the pros. Thank you 😊

[@neilmurraymusic2763]

I don't often comment on You Tube videos, but I felt compelled to after watching your mock-ups (and earlier videos). From a personal stand-point, I value seeing someone unashamedly state that they programmed every note and CC with the mouse. My own keyboard skills are below average, and I often think that my physical limitations are also limiting me compositionally. I definitely find programming everything in more beneficial as my only limit is my imagination. I see other You Tube composers do take after take trying to get a perfect performance, and it always makes me think "why not just at least tidy your playing up afterwards, instead of wasting time trying to attain playing perfection". Of course I tip my hat to people who have taken the time to really practise their playing to a point where it's natural for them. Anyway, just know that your videos are much appreciated Anne!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much for the kind words! I'm personally very much someone who composes in her head much more than on the piano. I find my arrangements and voice leading are cleaner, and my writing is more sophisticated that way. Some parts I will play in but some parts I will usually draw in. I'm actually thinking about getting a graphic design tablet like one of my team members and start using a magnetic pen to draw the notes into the piano roll - kind of like a middle ground between the good old "pen and paper" method and the new technology. In any case, the input method was discussed amongst the students so I figured why not prove that this actually works. I really dislike it when people (often amateurs or semi-professionals) on forums claim there's a "right" way to do things and if you don't do it their way, you're doing it wrong. That's some real nonsense - there are plenty of professional composers who are "players" and an equal amount who are "programmers". I'm simply more of a programmer in general.

[@BillyPalmerMusic]

Seeing the examples of layering to create particular articulations is really handy!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Glad you found this useful!

[@s.damienhammeren417]

It's so nice to see another composer who use the pencil tool, I also draw everything. Works like a charm. Great work on the piece!

[@benshirleymusic]

Thank you for posting this gem. As always, just awesome, clear, and inspirational.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you! Glad you like it!

[@marcuslawson-composer2892]

Another great video! I've been so inspired by these that I'm rebuilding my template to incorporate negative track delay everywhere. Thanks so much.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much! I'm really happy you're enjoying the videos!

[@paulc3037]

As someone who only just started doing this last summer, these tutorials are invaluable to me. Thanks once again Anne-Kathirin!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I'm so glad these videos are helpful!

[@LuisBecken]

Hello Anne. These mockup videos/lessons are so, so interesting! For me is like a masterclass in orchestration, in how to use different/complementary libraries layered together to be able to achieve a very realistic result. Thank you for showing and explaining how you worked on these mockups. This layering technique makes such a difference! I will certainly experiment with it and try to put it into practice. Thank you again!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much for watching and for your kind words! I love that you're taking some new knowledge away from this that you can experiment with in your own workflow.

[@Dklampanis]

Thank you so much Anne for this mock-up series! It’s truly edifying!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

So glad you like it!

[@MusicalWizardryMarcoIannello]

I wanted to say this in the previous video, but it blows my mind how well drawing in the automation works. I usually play everything in, recording the automation at the same time, I then quantise everything, I started doing that after being in the studio of a top composer in LA, watching his piano roll being on the grid, so I asked him why he was doing that, and he simply replied so that he would not need to go crazy with conforms, I was sold on the spot!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

More than one road leads to Rome :-) That's the point I'm trying to make. I see people being shamed online for preferring drawing over playing and just wanted to show that it leads to the same great sounding result as playing would. It had been a discussion amongst the students so that's why I chose to do it this way.

[@MusicalWizardryMarcoIannello]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer it really makes me glad to see a pro composer championing the "automation drawing" approach. Truth be told, it could even save one the time spent trying to record in the perfect performance. Oh, by the way, I was born in Rome 😁

[@alexjevincent]

Thanks for these mockup walkthroughs - they're really insightful to your process and the original composition also.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching! I'm happy these are helpful!

[@dariusofwest]

Another enjoyable mockup video!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@KevinKuschel]

Again wonderful walkthrough, thank you so much! Crazy how the timpani and low sections give the piece such drive. Great mock-up :)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@edmasters4454]

Another great walkthrough - thanks!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Glad you liked it!

[@frankD.baere-orchestralmockups]

Some of the words you said at the beginning of the video give me hope. :)

[@sykromsmile6303]

Very usefull and interesting mockup design of instruments and sounds,thanks very much

[@TheCyberMantis]

I have this soundtrack on CD. I listen to it almost every night, when I go to bed. I put it on at low volume... and let it play as I fall asleep. For some reason, it is very relaxing for me.

[@OliKember]

One of the best mockups I've ever heard! Absolutely huge sound. I'm gonna have to practise those layering tips. I'd love to see/hear your approach to reverbs some time if that's on your radar. Apologies if you've talked about it somewhere before! Cheers.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for the kind words! I think I shortly go over my reverbs in my template videos but I don't really do anything magical to be honest. Just some very general stuff.

[@JakobTreml]

Erneut ein sehr interessantes Video! Vielen Dank! Freue mich auf das (leider) letzte in der Reihe! :)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Vielen Dank!

[@NickCormierMusic]

Awesome video, really cool to see these mockups. I'm still a beginniner in MIDI orchestration, happy to steal some tricks!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

So glad this is helpful!

[@Dominik_Skrabal]

Great video series! Thank you for that, Anne. Could you also show your mockup mixing process on an example like this? Thanks in advance. :)

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Amazing! A lot of interesting tricks! Like usual. Thank you!! When you do those mockups do you do that by ear or with the sheet?

[@baldwyntin608]

Thank you!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

My pleasure!

[@CyrilBellem]

Well done! And thank you for sharing this with us :-)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@RubinHenkel]

Thanks Anne!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

My pleasure!

[@LukeTruanMusic]

Anne...This was a really great breakdown on how you work on mockups. It helps tremendously to see another how other composers work with mockups. While, I'm doing many of the same techniques, I learn many things. I'm glad to see that you are also layering instruments in different tracks; especially when it comes to mixed articulations. While I can play with key switches, I prefer to use multiple tracks. Along with other things, layering is one thing that helps to bring out a more realistic sounding orchestra. Something that I did not hear you talk about, but I noticed that you and I share as a technique, is the slight extension of the end of the midi note into the beginning of the next. I also do this at the beginning, but it depends on the mockup and how it sounds. What is your reason for this? My reason is that I find it helps with the transition between notes and helps it sound like a more realistic performance. Of course, CC1 and CC11 are part of that as well. One part that surprised me was that you quantized and it still sounds amazing! Look forward to the 3rd LoTR mockup. These sound amazing! ;)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching! A lot of the libraries I use need the overlap to trigger legatos. Otherwise it would be played non-legato. This doesn't apply to all sample libraries though. And yes, quantization does not take away the human element. It's in the tempo changes, in the dynamics, in the phrasing, and in the natural inconsistencies of sample libraries so there usually is no need to work off the grid. You'll find a lot of professional composers snap everything right into the grid because while it doesn't take away humanity in most cases, it does improve the workflow a lot, especially on movies and TV shows where a lot of MIDI edits need to be made daily.

[@peterreynolds8146]

Another excellent presentation. Really love this. What is cc 1 controlling? Is it velocity x fade to add tonal differences via the modulation wheel? Perhaps program specific to your libraries? I’m using VSL Cube library, VE Pro & Mir Pro with Room Packs. (I decided to spoil myself after many years of late night live gigs.) A lot of times I use StaffPad program the hand writing for iPad/Surface Pro with Cinesample , Berlin libraries ( watered down) as I personally find it much quicker to get the notes in and it’s in midi so I export to Cubase. Thanking you in advance Peter. Australian No. 1 Fan.

[@mirzaaljic]

Amazing! I am so happy you decided to cover LOTR in 3 episodes :)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

It was my pleasure!

[@yuggothproductions]

Just wondering about the quantization when you are using the CSS stuff. There’s a lot of lag in the legato transitions. How do you get it to match up with other string libraries? Negative delay? But even with that, when there’s space between the notes the attack time varies. I know I’m always struggling w this. Just wondering how you get around that? Cheers!

[@VickenIshkhanian]

Another great video, may I add another myth? Some say when you copy paste you end up theoretically with 300 violin players! But I don’t think it sounds unnatural, as long as it sounds good it is good to me. Thanks for the video.

[@VickenIshkhanian]

Of course I rushed to comment, you had already explained that at the end of the video, that’s why I like to watch them.

[@peterreynolds8146]

Maybe in a recording studio sympathetic vibration is so natural, yet layering strings & other instruments is a way to achieve this??

[@Tremendouz]

I once layered all my brass libraries to create a 64 horns section but it didnt end up sounding as big as I expected. So there's clearly a big difference between layering and making a bigger ensemble in real life

[@yvanroustan4426]

Hello Anne, this video serie is wonderful : you show how to use properly samples libraries, best articulations..i hope you could make other video like this ! questions : 1- do you apply brass layers because for brass it's quite difficult to obtain a natural sound (negative phase effect...) 2- Do you change original instrument panning to make stereo wider - or what is your favorite tips to increase stereo dimension ? Thank you for you time and passion and see you soon !

[@metalgeartac8186]

At the beginning or end when you have the whole orchestra playing, would you mind selecting everything and bringing up the piano roll so we can see all the midi notes. Really appreciate you doing these mockups. It helps a lot. Thanks and can't wait for your next mock up 🙂

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I can certainly do that for future videos. I've already recorded the next one so it won't be in there but I'll try to remember for any other mockup videos I might do.

[@RalfKurtsiefer]

I am a huge Fan! Can you explain how you extract the Tempo map from the Original?

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I load the original audio file and do it by ear.

[@nicoromano2225]

Anne, this is wonderful! everything you do here, do you get it by ear or sheet music?

[@MikeBreidegamMusic]

Fantastic mock-ups. Thanks for posting these. I love the scores to all the LOTR films. Is the score actually for sale someplace? Great to know layering doesn’t actually increase the sound as much as many believe. Would same idea hold true for playing multiple lines in an ensemble patch? I also notice you were using trill patches. Do you normally use those or do you manually create trills? Or does it depend on the library?

[@SharmaYelverton]

Interesting video, thanks. Out of interest, what score are you working from?

[@alexjamesmusic6190]

This is awesome! Sorry if you have mentioned this already but where do you get your instrument samples from?

[@braunhausmedia]

I'm not sure what it is with me that I prefer the mockups over the original. Maybe it has to do with the space. To my ears this mockup sounds less drowned in reverb and closer and more "in your face" than the original, which is the sound I prefer. Honestly, with mockups this good, I'm not sure why movie producers are willing to spend the money for a live orchestra. When mixed into the final soundtrack, I don't think the average movie goer would be able to tell the difference.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I do sometimes think mockups have a bit more width due to the layering and produced sound. I certainly notice it when I record live - the sound is much smaller and more narrow if that makes sense. The moment we layer the mockups back in, the field widens again and becomes larger than life. That's why we do what we do - film music is a recorded medium after all and produced as such these days instead of trying to emulate concert music. The "in your face" sound of a lot of current film scores definitely comes from recording and producing the different sections separately (which someone more old-fashioned like Shore doesn't do) and then layering in virtual instruments as well. It makes for cleaner balance but also less realistic balance of course. Live recording is a prestige object that a lot of higher end productions won't forego - players always add something to the final product. However, on occasion producers on a variety of productions have chosen the mockup over the recording, either by accident or by conscious creative choice. A lot of productions can also now get away with recording smaller orchestras that are layered into the mockups - which can actually lead to smaller productions also opting for live recording. They may be able to afford that chamber orchestra to add to your mockup but not the 100 piece orchestra to substitute the whole thing. I will say I've fooled myself with my mockups on occasion when I thought the score mixer was playing everything but it was actually just the mockup... so with a proper surround mix I would agree that the average movie goer would probably not be able to tell the difference. Mind you though, that few people are capable of creating convincing enough mockups for that. It's still a pretty rare skill, even in Hollywood.

[@itznoxy7193]

When you make these mockups do you have the score or are you transcribing it by ear? If you use a score how did you get it?

[@stevegeorge7773]

Very interesting. May I ask, what DAW are you using? That isn’t Protools is it?

[@sotosonic413]

Excellent mockup and tutorial again, thank you! I'm slightly confused by the trumpets panning, CSB seem to be on the right whereas CB are on the left?

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Nope, they are both on the right. In fact CSB is a bit closer to the center than CB but both come out on the right side for the most part. It's the horns you're hearing on the left.

[@sotosonic413]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Thank you! I'm a bit confused though because I thought trumpets are on the left in traditional orchestra seating arrangement?

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Orchestras in film scoring have very little to do with classical concert orchestras.

[@sotosonic413]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Thank you for the update! I was beginning to realise this and guessing that trumpets are panned out right to keep high frequency space for vocal dialogue in film. Much appreciated :)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

It doesn't really have anything to do with that. Orchestra seating has changed and varied over the centuries. Specifically Leopold Stokowski has been known to experiment and his string seating (vln 1, vln 2, vla, vlc, bas) has been adopted by orchestras across America whereas in Europe you will often still find the older seating with the violins bookending the orchestra left and right. There's no panning happening in any case - this is a common misconception. Rarely do we ever do that since most mixes are based on the Decca Tree Mics which already have all the spatial information in them.

[@alexusfort6476]

Hello, could you please answer, do you recreate this from some existing score or do it by ears? Thanks, great video

[@jjrussell]

Came here to ask this. Would love to know how you did this, whether or not you had the score in front of you or just did it from ear. Truly amazing work either way. Thanks so much for sharing

[@supercussive]

Where do you get the full scores to these films? Seems, you can buy exerpts or "suites", but never the full scores.

[@skaviofficial]

Wow, very use full 😘😍🥰

[@ДмитрийШубинский-в7ч]

Thank you for the video! I have a question for you. How do you compose music? I compose in Sibelius or in MuseScore. I need to see the vertical of the score. I can't look at the squares in the piano roll. And then I export it to midi. How do you do it?

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching! I tend to compose in my head first, then I move to the piano with a simple sketch, and then I go straight into the DAW. This is for theme writing only though. Once I have the themes for a movie written and approved, I don't leave the DAW anymore.

[@brentsmith8578]

Where did you get the full orchestrated score?

[@johnerwin-inprogress6194]

Perhaps she got hold of the score?

[@binutabla6295]

🙏🙏🙏 good

[@anatomicallymodernhuman5175]

I so wish I'd discovered you months ago when this video was released. Master class. It's a lovely, praise-worthy score, and Shore's voicings are generally impeccable. But can I just say, I HATE, HATE when the melody and bass are in parallel octaves in a harmonic context. It jumps out at me and rubs my fur the wrong way every time. My college harmony teacher, if she were still alive, would probably have gone to his house just to smack his hand with a ruler for that.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

So glad you like my videos! Thank you for the support!

[@michaelironstone]

WHERE DID YOU FIND THE SCORE???

[@slothlovechunk]

Where do you get the score source from?

[@slothlovechunk]

Sorry, super noobie to this stuff.

[@achillesamusic]

"Everything was drawn in..." BUT WHY :P ??

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Because the students asked about this. So instead of just claiming that it works, I decided to prove that it works. :-)

[@arataka57]

I wonder if you transcribed it or had the score. Your knowledge seems to be unachievable.