Answering Objections to the Traditional Latin Mass (Guest: Peter Kwasniewski)

The traditional Latin Mass continues to be controversial within the Catholic Church. Many Catholics object to various aspects of the TLM, believing it to be outdated. Today we'll address some of those objections.
Guest: Peter Kwasniewski earned a B.A. in liberal arts at Thomas Aquinas College and an M.A. and Ph.D. in philosophy from The Catholic University of America. Since 2018, Dr. K has been a full-time writer and speaker, contributing to blogs, magazines, and newspapers. He has published over twenty books and his work has been translated into at least twenty languages.
Links:
• "Turned Around: Replying to Common Objections Against the Traditional Latin Mass" (Book): tanbooks.com/p...
• Dr. Kwasniewski website: www.peterkwasn...
• Dr. Kwasniewski substack: www.traditions...

[@loyaltotruth8435]

The glad trad mob resoundingly, yet melodiously, chants in a polyphonic frenzy: "Doc-tor-Kay! Doc-tor-Kay! Doc-tor-Kay!" Always love Dr. K's generous and enthusiastic exposition of knowledge. His scholarship and rhetorical skills would make St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas smile. A heartfelt thank you for your dedication to Holy Mother Church, Her ancient Liturgy, and Her steadfast orthodox doctrine.

[@mdavis201]

The only danger for me personally is that after assisting at a TLM I have to be careful driving home. I try to take a few minutes to reorient myself to being back in the "real" world again.

[@Myohomoto]

❤❤❤ Happens to me too! Everything looks beautiful driving home and the feeling of deep peace and joy! I've not heard anyone else experiencing this ❤❤❤

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

my dad grew up with the Latin mass, but he absolutely does not like it anymore. now he prefers “English mass because he can “understand what the priest is saying”. I’ve tried to explain to him that the translation of the basics is available in the red book in the pew and the readings in English are available in a missal that you can either buy yourself or get in the Benedictus magazine.

[@gracieobunny9916]

Such a great interview. I want to share with my NO friends so they at least learn something. They may want to remain at the NO Mass and that’s their free choice but I want them to understand the history.

[@TheGringoSalado]

It’s easier to watch a movie than read a book. But there is no debate as to which is better for you.

[@daveerhardt1879]

What a great conversation, I sure learn a lot from these two great traditional Catholics. Peter Kwasniewski is one of the knowledgeable, intelligent, and insightful Catholics of our day, always love to listen to his insights of the TLM and the Catholic faith in general.

[@myleshagar9722]

Years ago I personally experienced the change in oreintations as a Lutheran pastor. After my first liturgy in a new parish, facing the people for my first time, many complained that I was too serious and did not smile at them during the consecration. !!!! It was all focused on Me. After 50 years of experiments, this one has had nothing but negative results. Loss of focus, loss of reverence, loss of faith, loss of priestly function.

[@Cavebear66]

Great episode! Thank you

[@ThanksStJoseph]

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught” St. Paul

[@stephanottawa7890]

In Italy a priest chastised me for sticking out my tongue when I was in the communion line. He did give me communion once, but added that he would not do it a second time and I should not try it again because he was the vicar of the cathedral. I did try to speak with him after the mass, but as the vicar he was too busy to speak to me. I think that he simply used his supposed business as a way of avoiding me. Later I seen him in the piazza, but he went by me even though he saw me because being Don whatever, he was just too busy.

[@TheGringoSalado]

@@stephanottawa7890 these folks espouse a different religion. That much should be obvious today.

[@elizabethv_royalsfan]

That actually goes against canon law I am pretty sure it says they cannot deny you communion on the tongue

[@stephanottawa7890]

@@elizabethv_royalsfan Yes, you are correct, but it is very hard to reason with people like Don Pasquale (I think that was his name) when he is the one standing in front of you and telling you that he will not give you communion on the tongue in his church.

[@TheGringoSalado]

4:33 Because Mass is Oriented towards God not Man and in that orientation man gets everything he really needs!

[@ji8044]

Did Jesus preach facing the people or facing away from them? Did he sit with his back to the apostles at the Last Supper?

[@TheGringoSalado]

@@ji8044 Jesus the son of the living God. The disciples faced Jesus did they not? Why do so many reject the deposit of Faith for the “new theology?”

[@elizabethv_royalsfan]

​@@ji8044in the. OT did the levite priest face the ark of the covenant in the tent or the people? BTW, Homily is preached facing the people, in the local vernacular

[@ji8044]

@@TheGringoSalado You just contradicted yourself. Jesus and the apostles faced each other in a meal. They did not gaze heavenward.

[@ji8044]

@@elizabethv_royalsfan The Ark and the Levites have nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic Mass.

[@stephanottawa7890]

Does the train driver face the passengers on a train? The bus driver does not turn to greet the passengers while he is driving the bus?

[@ji8044]

Jesus did not face away from the disciples and people when preaching to them.

[@stephanottawa7890]

@@ji8044 Do you not know that praying and preaching are two different things?

[@stephanottawa7890]

@@ji8044 Do you not know that praying and preaching are too different things? If they were walking through the fields and he was talking to them, did he walk backwards? Were you there to know for sure?

[@elizabethv_royalsfan]

​@@ji8044homily is done facing the people. BTW, in the OT the levite priest faced the ark of the covenant in the tent, not the people

[@stephanottawa7890]

I got tired of priests talking about common meals and tearing apart loaves of bread to demonstrate it. I no longer go to the RC mass unless it is TLM.

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

Eric you look 20 years younger without the beard!

[@AppealToHeaven]

I miss the beard

[@DrewMureiko]

Tell that to his wife.

[@damnedmadman]

There are also serious theological issues with the New Mass, because it's basically a censored, mutilated, watered down version of TLM. It's been made in the image of Protestant "liturgies", so no wonder it more or less consciously preaches a heretical theology and ecclesiology.

[@littlerock5256]

It is impossible for a pope to foist a protestant liturgy that preaches a heretical theology and ecclesiology. This can only mean the Paul VI was not a valid pope.

[@BrianBenson-rc9mu]

@@littlerock5256 Nothing after Vatican 2 is catholic.

[@RickW-HGWT]

What I always love is when it's said to find a reverent NO, why are they not all reverent ?, any reverence in a NO is from apeing the TLM.

[@myleshagar9722]

This point is a simple matter of fact and history.

[@damnedmadman]

@@littlerock5256 If the liturgy was perfect, it would be set in stone and never change no matter what. But the Popes have a right to modify the rite or even impose a new one. And a rite is not a dogma, so it's not infallible. NOM is obviously inferior to TLM in most aspects, but in no way does it negate the authority of Paul VI to promulgate it.

[@mpasaa]

It's interesting that the direction of the priest definitely makes a difference. In fact, in our Novus Ordo parish at the end of each daily Mass our pastor recites the Angelus right after St Michael prayer and he, in fact, turns around and faces the altar, Crucifix, and Tabernacle which is all about the same place in the sanctuary. It does have a different 'feel' (I hate that word but for this it gets the point across) than if he were to walk down the steps and continue facing us...THAT would be weird. So I do think at least having the priests turn around and face the Tabernacle/Altar would be an excellent change. Of course, Communion on the tongue, sanctuary rails and/or kneelers for those receiving on the tongue, using more of the Latin prayers common to every Mass and that everyone should know since we say them during Lent, drop the peace greeting which in our parish is really just quick gesture and then on to the Agnus Dei and maybe more hymns versus the contemporary gather hymnal songs BUT I KNOW---baby steps ;-) If the Novus Ordo is wrong, by your positions, then why didn't the Holy Spirit protect the Church from implementing it? Surely, when it comes to worship of GOD the Holy Spirit wouldn't have just left us to our own wrong or even sinful conclusions--yes? Doesn't make sense that a GOD who wishes us to know Him, worship Him, Adore Him and so on would then allow millions upon millions to be mislead through no fault of their own. See what I mean? I agree with most of the points on the Novus Ordo vs TLM but explaining the TLM doesn't necessarily explain why the Novus Ordo, if it's truly evil or heretical or whatever, is allowed to continue even today??? Can someone answer this for me? Lastly, many Catholics attending Novus Ordo WANT TO ATTEND THE TLM but NONE ARE AVAILABLE and the only suggestion I've ever heard is to MOVE...NOT HELPFUL and, frankly, such a glib answer that makes me NOT want to bother if this is the sort of person attending the TLM...know what I mean....just saying.

[@daricehenriques1200]

The NO is not invalid and neither Dr K nor Eric Sammons said so. God allows many not so good and even evil things because of our free will and also because it fits in with part of His plan for greater good to be brought about from the evil. Why did God allow Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? I have yet to meet a NO Catholic who is interested in attending the TLM though I have spoken to many about the TLM. But that could just be the liberal Catholic area I live in. And yes, we too have no access to the TLM in my diocese, as the few diocesan TLMs that were there were suspended during the lockdown and never resumed and then TC struck them down. I do not know where you live but I agree that moving to be nearer a TLM is not something many people can do, include me. That kind of advice only works for countries like the US where people there are several TLM venues across the country and people can relocate easily and find a job and house. But I also acknowledge that most of these TLM videos in English are US centric so I don't judge all Trads by this advice. I myself do not have access to the TLM, so I attend the NO. Once in a while, the SSPX has a Mass at a city which is over 1000km away (638 miles). I take a flight, stay in a hotel for a night and attend. By God's grace I can afford to do that though it takes 25% of my monthly salary. I also foresee that as the days grow more and more evil, access to the TLM will be even more restricted. There may come a time when I may not be able to travel distances to a TLM, and those who relocated to be near one will not have this problem (which is why the general advice is to relocate). But since I cannot relocate, I leave this problem to God.

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

"Objecting" to the latin mass is like objecting the creation of the university or hospitals. Its not "dogmatized" (though honestly one could dispute that in a broader symbolic sense) but you'd just have to fundamentally not get catholicism to be against it.

[@stopfabrications]

The only reason Latin is foreign to people is that the counterfeit church hated it. I guess a lot of people don't know that a lot of English is based upon Latin. Even my secular public school offered Latin in the 1950's.

[@Myohomoto]

Is that Eric's teenage son doing this interview?😂❤

[@stephanottawa7890]

48:00 What do you think of the modern notion that people doing the RCIA course are taken out after the sermon or homily and they attend some sort of RCIA class with their sponsors. I do not know if this is the common practice. Is sort of echoes the idea of the catechumens leaving the mass before the mass of the faithful starts. What do you think? By the way is there a RCIA course that promotes the Latin mass or is it a new mass thing?

[@stephanottawa7890]

In other countries such as France and Germany they have so many "Eucharistic helpers" dressed up like priests (including women) that it is very hard to actually receive communion from a priest. The lay helpers have all be trained to only give communion in the hand and they have probably been told (although I have no way of proving it) that communion on the tongue is illicit and no longer approved by either the local bishop or even Rome (not that they care too much about what Rome says). Therefore they simple do not know what to do when someone sticks out the tongue. They stand there like a dispensing machine that is not working because I did not pull the right crank. When they finally do realize what is up, they simple refuse because they think that hand communion is the modern RC way. I was able to communicate in Alsace by approaching the priest directly and avoiding all the eucharistic ladies (there were no men). He did give me communion on the tongue, but there was no place to kneel. I wonder if I should have abstained or sought out a TLM. The closest one was about an hour away and might have already taken place as there is only one on Sunday for all of Alsace. Obviously the bishop of Strassburg is not in favour or there would be more churches with TLM.

[@ji8044]

There is no Biblical precedent of the need for a priest to hand out communion. To the extent the Mass has any relationship to the Last Supper, that meal was communal in nature. Jesus did not hand out food to his disciples individually.

[@stephanottawa7890]

@@ji8044 How do you know? Were you there? Obviously you have no idea of how things were done at a ceremonial meal at the time. Probably the host did hand out the food. When Jesus gave the apostles the communion, he gave it to them directly to each one and probably into the mouth. Or do you think it was the way you and your chums eat at McDoe?

[@Evildentistsfromhell]

The Jews maintained Hebrew through 2000 years of diaspora so that when the established their own land they recreated hebrew as a spoken language. A holy language of their worship and life. Latin, Slavonic, Greek etc are the same

[@sheri6089]

Is there a name for conservatives that are not hard-core traditionalists, however think the TLM is head and shoulders above the N.O. mass?

[@damnedmadman]

Sure, there are 3 "categories" 😄 mad trads (eg. sedevacantists like FSSPV), rad trads (eg. FSSPX) - and glad trads (FSSP, IKCSP, etc. and ordinary TLM parishes) 😉 So I think what you're looking for is the "glad trads"!

[@littlerock5256]

Lukewarm.

[@littlerock5256]

@@damnedmadman SSPX violates Church teaching on the papacy, which is not traditional. Nor is the 1962 Bugnini transitional missal.

[@damnedmadman]

@@littlerock5256 How?

[@littlerock5256]

@@damnedmadman Bugnini called the 1962 the early novus ordo, a transitional missal that lasted for a whole 2.5 years, in which he altered the Canon. Canon means fixed and had been so since Pope St. Gregory the Great. Bugnini removed the people's Confiteor. Removed saints from the calendar.

[@stephanottawa7890]

Yes, let us not add anything....Especially not the FILIOQUE!

[@daricehenriques1200]

Interesting discussion. My personal opinion of the average NO Catholic (and this is my personal opinion, based on trying to convince people to attend the TLM) - the average NO Catholic is lukewarm in Faith and is not a person of good will. You may say that this not something new that I am stating. But what I mean is - the average NO Catholic has no desire to do anything more than the minimum to get to Heaven. The definition of minimum is as per their inadequate Faith and therefore may be actually deficient and not meeting the criteria. The average NO Catholic also does not have the will to suffer or sacrifice, therefore, attending the TLM is an 'effort' for them and they are change-resistant. They are comfortable with what they are doing and consider it sufficient to get to Heaven. Nobody can convince them otherwise, except an intervention from God. The blind and deaf of the Gospel at least had the good will to ask for God to open their eyes / ears. I mourn for this generation.

[@stopfabrications]

Since Vatican II, Catholics have been taught to believe another religion, not Catholicism. It is the religion of the synthesis of heresies, Modernism as Pope St. Pius X so thoroughly outlined in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the Doctrine of the Modernists) and Pope Bl. Pius XI's The Syllabus of Errors.

[@paulmurray3671]

I think you are both de facto monotheletists.

[@stopfabrications]

Being a faithful Catholic is a sin now?

[@samferraro1108]

The Mass is the Mass. As long as it is done the way that the Church says it is supposed to be done, the form that is preferred shouldn't matter. I usually attend the ordinary form liturgy in a place where it is properly and beautifully done. I also like the older form of the Roman Rite as well as the Eastern Rite.

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

If only what you were saying was always true... This past weekend I was late for my normal mass, and we went into a Novus Ordo. Promptly there was a "children's liturgy" and charismatic "raising of hands" to bless them. We had to leave immediately because this is heretical or heretically inspired at best. You'll *never* see anything like that at TLM, so I am afraid no a mass is not just mass these days...

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

Sorry the issue is the reforms of the liturgy we’re largely a disaster.The goals of the Council Fathers were set aside by Archbishop Bugnini in favor of a Lutheran style liturgy.The Novus Ordo should be suppressed and the ancient mass made available with some parts in the vernacular.

[@damnedmadman]

NO is a censored TLM. Are you sure you want it to shape your faith?

[@RickW-HGWT]

Does the amount of reverence enter into your evaluation ?, the liturgical abuses I find are in the NO for the most part. The hierarchy has betrayed our trust far too many times, starting with bergolio.

[@stopfabrications]

If the church is a counterfeit church then is certainly does matter what it says and does.

[@paulmurray3671]

Answer this objection: I and most Catholics do not want to be FORCED to have only a Mass straight out of the Middle Ages.

[@SheepDog1775]

We have an obligation to worship God in the way he directs (it has been handed dow from the beginning), not as we see fit and pleases US. It’s about reverence and worship, not getting your dose of entertainment, Bible study, or a modern musical distraction. Worshiping in a way that pleases us rather than what most pleases God is what Protestants do. The overarching theme of the Old Testament is the dire consequences of worshiping as we see fit as opposed to as directed by God.

[@paulmurray3671]

@@SheepDog1775 This is the great danger of Catholic Traditionalists--who appointed YOU as the arbiter for what God wants? Do you have a hotline to the Holy Spirit, who guided Vatican II, to determine what sort of Mass God thinks is best? Does God even have a "favorite Mass"? You will try for FORCE a Mass that I want nothing to do with down my throat, and you give me no choice but to accept it, even if I don't want it, because, of course, you know what exactly God wants and I don't.

[@paulmurray3671]

I responded to this misguided response but my comment was immediately deleted. I will ,keep putting this response response up as many times as I need to. Who appointed YOU, sheepdog, as God's personal arbiter about what is God's favorite Mass? Does God even have a "favorite Mass"`? Do you have a hotline to the Holy Spirit, who gu ided Vatican II, to get the Holy Spirit's direct words? If you get your way and you have only Communion on the tongue, then you deserve to have happen to you what happened to me when I was eight years old--a priest reaming me right at the Communion rail so the whole church could hear that I was not lifting my head up high enough for him to put the Host in my mouth. I do NOT WANT a return to the type of Mass that you want, whether you like it or not.

[@paulmurray3671]

@@SheepDog1775 I responded to your misguided response, but TWICE my comments were deleted. I reject your arguments and think you are implanting your own opinions on God.

[@SheepDog1775]

I can’t see your reply, but you are entitled to your opinion. You have to make your own decision and be willing to die with it.

[@ji8044]

There is no precedent anywhere in the NT for the idea that Jesus created a priesthood to celebrate Mass. Passover, which Jesus himself celebrated, does not require any intercessor between the celebrants and God. He says in Matthew that the 12 disciples will judge the twelves tribes of Israel at the Final Judgement, not in this life.

[@elizabethv_royalsfan]

Priesthood established at the last supper when the Eucharist was also established

[@ji8044]

@@elizabethv_royalsfan Entirely false, Jesus chose 12 disciples to judge the 12 tribes of Israel after the Second Coming. He says so directly in Matthew.

[@paulmurray3671]

No to the Traditional Latin Mass. No to Communion on the tongue.

[@dwpjoyce]

Communion on the tongue is the universal law of the Church - in the hand had to be granted by way of indult. Are you seriously against the universal law, and the practice of the Church for so long, practiced in both east and west?

[@TKOTraddish]

Why?

[@ji8044]

@@dwpjoyce That is false. The Greek Orthodox Church is the direct descendant of the earliest organized Christian churches.

[@dwpjoyce]

@@ji8044 I never said anything about the apostolicity of the Greek Orthodox church, I only wrote about the Universal practice of communion on the tongue. The Greek Orthodox do Holy Communion in the mouth via a spoon, do they not? As in the Eastern Catholic rites....

[@elizabethv_royalsfan]

​@@ji8044direct? Name 5 martyrs of the early church after the first Pentecost that were Greek Orthodox church members