AoE2: DE | Unique Unit Tier List

This has definitely been a long-requested one! Let me know which UUs are your favorite! :)
Tiermaker for UUs: tiermaker.com/create/aoe2de-u...
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[@tyranitararmaldo]

That "thunk" noise the Jaguar Warrior makes should bump it a tier. So satisfying to the ear...

[@AoE-TakeAGuess]

The "clickbaity" tier list on the thumbnail just cracks me up lol

[@OrnLu_AoE]

It's actually just all of the UUs in alphabetical order, with the new UUs listed first. That's how the list is organized 11. All I did for the video was to place the new UUs in their correct position alphabetically.

[@Hainaut183]

@@OrnLu_AoE Yeah, everybody agrees Ballista Elephants are extremely useful in competitive. How are you supposed to even survive without a non-Onager that can destroy trees?

[@slayersam1]

@@Hainaut183 Trebs.

[@julianruiz8499]

The dislike is probably from SOTL because you put samurais in C tier. Great video!

[@madhusudansuryanarayanan8105]

Exactly what I thought lol

[@Matt-ln7lb]

Eh, Samurai should probably be B tier, IMO. They aren't something you can go straight into like the S and A tier units, because they're infantry, but they get used a lot in pro play; way more than jaguar warriors, for example. The combination of a short build time with the Japanese attack speed bonus and more HP/speed than champions (and a shorter upgrade time) does make them a great unit for pressing a position advantage in the late game when gold is running low, especially if the opponent's civ tends to rely on a unique unit. Berserks may be better vs cavalry after chieftains, but vs everything else, Samurai are probably a bit better. I'm surprised he put Genoese crossbows in A tier, because that unit kind of sucks tbh. The training time is way too long, so while it might seem great to make them vs cav, you just can't get the mass you need. Cataphracts as well are put surprisingly high. Sure, they're strong, but teching into them is insanely expensive, and match up dependent, since they're specialized vs infantry, so they're not really an option in most games. Tarkans as well; they're very rarely used, because the knight line is generally just better. They're a decent unit, but definitely not A tier material.

[@PixXx31]

Imagine being a melee unit in S tier.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

The power of the Huskarl!

[@spectre9065]

The Ballista Elephant's fatal flaw is that it does low pierce damage, which is a lot less damage in a real game where units have pierce armor. Pass thru damage is nice, but when its only doing 1 damage to most things it is counterproductive. Ballista Elephants also cost a lot of food, food which is better allocated to building Battle Elephants.

[@muatring]

But when you have 50 ballista elephants doing 1 extra dmg x 50 that's 50 dmg to everyone getting hit by pass through.

[@spectre9065]

@@muatring In Deathmatch perhaps. Normal games don't have mobs of enemies clumped together. This is an old comment, Ballista Elephants have been buffed.

[@matthewmcneany]

Good job qualifying and explaining tiers - this makes me happy.

[@pipoca33]

You kinda sound like Kermit, and that's cool.

[@garlicohen960]

A is for Arambai B is for Berserk, C is for Cataphract!!

[@Lampredi4]

Ornlu: puts axe throwing thingys in B tier Debbie: *unsubscribes*

[@candrarazaka1055]

Yea Throwing Axes are underrated man. They are a powerful combo when paired with Paladins.

[@DCdabest]

Was coming in here ready to defend the honor of the Throwing Axeman. Well played; Ornlu.

[@perrytran9504]

I know conqs aren't as strong anymore, but it still feels so good to 360 quickscope knights/camels with just a small group of them.

[@Tpoleful]

From what I've seen they're the most powerful unit if you do fast castle into castle. But that is only viable if you're super good at reading your opponent and they are too dumb to go fast castle against spanish. One of the most powerful units against the Ai for sure.

[@yoursodumn]

When I was a kid (basically only expansion was the conquerors at the time) my friends would restrict the use of Spanish and Koreans. For that reason, (and because I never really play them) I always thought Spanish were one of the best Civs until Hera shattered my world by making a tier ranking where he put them as the worst 1v1 Arabia civ in the game. Maybe we were dumb kids? I can't remember all the buffs/nerfs they've gone through. Just feels weird.

[@perrytran9504]

@@yoursodumn The main nerf is getting the cavalry archer armor class. Before they just had the archer armor class and would take +4 bonus damage from skirmishers, but now they take a total of +6 which is quite big. DE also had some quirks which made gunpowder units less accurate than intended for a long time but this was supposedly fixed recently.

[@candrarazaka1055]

@@yoursodumn The weakest point of the Spanish is their strongest eco bonus (trade units generate more gold) isn't applicable in 1vs1 game and sure they do have the blacksmith bonus ones, but feels like their resources boost aren't as fast as Goths, Aztecs, Franks, etc in the early game.

[@RedDragon924]

*cries in elephant* I understand why, but it just makes me sad. Poor elephants.

[@evanrudibaugh8772]

I love elephants... when they're the enemy and I have monks and theocracy.

[@majike0355]

I'm more surprised you didn't make an F-tier just for Missionaries 11

[@T-West]

I feel like Mangudai and Plumes need an SS tier just for themselves.

[@emirozbalak3556]

Don't forget about Conquistador

[@08vinster]

@@emirozbalak3556 they're c tier on the list, wtf would anyone rate them ss tier

[@emirozbalak3556]

@@08vinster Yeah, thanks to you, I realized the mistake I made. I hate condottiero, I thought I wrote conquistador. But I've edited and corrected that. Thanks!

[@T-West]

@@08vinster They were ss tier back in the AoAK days on HD. Those Malian Condi were scary!

[@emirozbalak3556]

@James Its not a hard counter when Mangudai is being microed. Skirm projectiles are slow and Mangudai move fast. Moreover, if you have enough Mangudai (enough to kill 1 skirm in one shot), Mangudai can produce very surprising results (surprising because 10 melee unit cannot attack a single unit at the same time, so you shouldn't expect a normal combat with Mangudai).

[@slavajuri]

Very good video! Loved your explanations.

[@Wobbuffet0]

I like Karambits. They look awesome when you have 60 swarming through the opponent's Eco.

[@Hainaut183]

Surprised that the Boyar is only C tier for you. The fact that Slavs don't have Paladins makes the Boyar sooo much more attractive than C tier imo, especially if you're Castle-pushing. Boyars are well-complimented by the Slavs' cheaper siege and Druzhina Halbs to flush out enemy counter-cavalry while they're wrecking the enemy's eco and slaying their ranged units.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Boyars are def better than Cavalier, but they are still incredibly difficult to get up and running. For example, when I see Slav pockets in team games (or as the cav civ in a 2v2), most of the time the slav player will go Knights -> Cavalier -> siege. You realistically only have the time to get to Boyars in 4v4s. As for 1v1s, you would only ever see Boyars as an occasional choice on Arena vs civs that do not have good pikemen.

[@Hainaut183]

@@OrnLu_AoE Probably not the easiest unit to get up and running, but Slavs do have a great eco with their farming bonus, and they can simply rely on Knights while waiting to get enough Castles for Boyars, which will be a deathball after enough time. It helps that Blacksmith upgrades would already be researched. I went with Cavaliers as Slavs in a team game and the commentators said they were surprised I didn't switch to Boyars. Even in Castle Age, having a cavalry unit with lots of melee armor AND 12 attack can be pretty sweet.

[@vianney768]

You have such a deep knowledge of the game !

[@mrsimonb3]

i like the way the picture frame behind ornlu's head makes him look like he's got cat ear headphones on

[@diosn6909]

NIce podcast type video!

[@NoraNoita]

Could you consider making a meta analysis video for the queen's clash tournament that just happened, it would be interesting to see how such a wide range of skill has a different approach to the meta and execution of it.

[@canaksu1771]

i think cataphract is op in my opinion it is a S tier for me because if you look for every unit vs cataphract only elephants can beat cataphract

[@GoldenRoyal5]

Mass archers does the job as well

[@theobald_indoaoe]

@@GoldenRoyal5 in theory they are weak against archers, but they do trample damage. They are just weak against cav archers since they are slower.

[@MrBl4ckY]

I don't think they're OP, but if you can get them out, they're absolutely strong. Massed archers can pose a threat to cataphracts, especially in castle before logistica, but you can't forget the byzantine army composition with skirms camels/pikes and catas. These three units together are almost impossible to kill, since they, as a group, counter almost every other army composition. Camels against knights, skirms against archers, catas against pikes. When playing byzantines it's all about knowing what the enemy is bringing to the field, and for that, they have excellent outposts with free feudal extra LoS. Pop down one or two outposts near the enemy base and you'll have an early warning system for which unit to build, allowing you favorable fights, allowing you a better economy, allowing you FU Catas.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Mass archers, brute force and monks. Their weak pierce armour is also a weakness when raiding

[@sgtpepper8581]

Yeah, Mike empires matches sucks man, that guy doesn't even know how to balance resources, also equal numbers without micro of course cataphracts wins

[@robchang4533]

I hope next, we get a UU tier list sorted by design. Because for me personally the strength of a UU and the recommendation to go for them, isnt as big as the discussion of what is a well- or poorly designed UU.

[@hansoskar1911]

Longbowmen would be S tier in every civ but Britons. I hate how Konniks attack so slow without stirrups and then just normal affter Stirrups. I really like the meta effect of Gen Bows that makes your own decent but not insane cavalry reign supreme by killing opposing cavalry and also all counters to your own cavalry. Even when they dont invalidate all the opposing army alone. I dont get how Magyar Huszar are B Tier and Tarkans A tier. You see Magyar Huszar in a way higher percentage of games of their civs than Tarkans .

[@OrnLu_AoE]

I disagree on Magyar Huszars vs Tarkans (obviously 11). In my experience Tarkans are seen a fair bit more than Huszars, and that is for one reason alone - you can make them at stables. Switching into Tarkans vs mass archers is pretty easy to do once you have a Castle, whereas Huszars are always confined to Castle production. Huszars are super good in late game 1v1s, but you are nowhere near as likely to see them in midgame

[@afilador9451]

I love ur tier list

[@emadsaberi]

Thing about mamelukes is that although they are expensive you can preserve their mass so easily, and you don't need to replace them as often if you're paying attention and microing them. Camels are great at dealing with cavalry and skirms but they suck at killing anything else, and also suck at raiding. Mamelukes are great at raiding, can kill siege and aren't countered as easily by pikes with micro all because of the 3 range and higher dps. Their only counter really is archers and monks. Mamelukes and skirms cover each others' weaknesses oh so well, since skirmishers can tank and destroy archers but suck against cavalry and siege, while mamelukes can handle everything else. Skirmishers are also cheap while mamelukes are expensive, so its not too taxing on your economy either. If you get in a pickle, you can also always use your skirmishers as bait and bail with your mamelukes. As Saracens you have a very bright Imperial age with those two units, and can always easily transition into arbalesters or camels if need be. I still think they can use a buff by removing their archer armour class, though, since it makes no sense for camels or a heavy cav replacement unit to receive bonus damage from skirmishers or eagle warriors. They should also get higher line of sight since 5 is extremely poor for a ranged unit. The unit needs more love man :(

[@robchang4533]

Condos just suck outside the no upgrade islands push , because their anti gp feature never comes to play because you never see gunpowder. There cost would be totally fine, if the thing they counter would not be self-countered by even higher cost. #HC Minus 10g cost, Minus 10s tt :P

[@08vinster]

yep!

[@Matt-ln7lb]

Condos are great because they don't require any tech. You can start making them as soon as you hit imp. They're weak when everything has full upgrades, but they're still something that sees regular use at the pro level... More than cataphracts, Tarkans, or Genoese crossbows.

[@Camurgladius]

From a balance perspective, what would we "want" this sort of tier list to look like? My first thoughts on that are we would probably want no D-tier UUs simply because it's uninteresting/sad to virtually never see something that has a unique model--it's technically a waste. Second is that there's at least a possible argument that S-tier UUs should not be on civs that are amongst the top civs, but I don't really think that's a current problem (closest is the chuks-plumes-mangudai trio). Third is that C-tier UUs should at least be good in their niche and that niche should ideally be complementary to the civ (shotels work well as ram-busters on a civ that already has powerful archers and siege, condos are a landing/early Imp shock tool with low investment, if you put Taxmen here instead of B they are an excellent example of a complementary niche UU, etc). Biggest problems are thus the elephants, the memes and the memelukes. It's not an easy problem to solve though--a lot of the C/D-tier UUs share a common point that they're slow, in the micro or macro sense (or both for elephants). And if you make slow things too strong they flip into being both oppressive and, crucially, uninteresting, at least from my PoV. This is also why I'm currently opposed to going too hard on buffing the swordline--IMO longswords being not the equals of crossbow-knight is good for the game. Also more Historically Accurate(tm).

[@emirozbalak3556]

About the criticism on D tier, I agree that elephants, burning camel & missionary should be more viable but I disagree with flemish militia and memeluke because flemish militia should stay weak and memeluke is not weak at all, it's a mistake to put it on D tier.

[@kankantona9070]

Memeluke seems improved now with extra 10hp non elite and a much cheaper zealotry. They perform so well against cavalry civs, i would put them on C tier at least. I think ballista elephant arent D tier too: 1. They have 8 pass thro attack in castle age without the need to upgrade, so pairing them with a few light cavs and pikes are quite good; 2. They are very strong vs low hp and/or low PA units once double xbow kicks in. So from mid imperial they are a dominant unit vs non cav, non meso and non-goths civs.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@emirozbalak3556 Flemish militia aren't even weak. The only issue is that you lose your eco for them, which forces you all in. Aside from that, they're basically just better champions. They have similar anti-cav DPS to halbs, and perform similarly to champions against everything else.

[@emirozbalak3556]

@@Matt-ln7lb You are correct about the statements on unit strength but loosing the economy is their weakness, that's why they are weak. In that sense you seem like you agree with me. Yet, still saying that I'm wrong (by claiming they are not weak). Please be more clear on why I'm wrong, so that I can give my reasons.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@emirozbalak3556 They're still seen regularly when the faction gets played at a high level. Losing your eco sucks, but the push you get out of it is enough to compensate in many games, especially if you have a lot of banked resources, or just had a huge economy. The tech is a great way to close out games. At the very least, I don't think the unit belongs in D tier. It's not in the "don't make this unless the game is basically over/there's no other choice" category. It's just a large commitment, and somewhat situational.

[@robchang4533]

All of S- Tier is either a range unit, or counters ranged- units :D Seems fine Kappa

[@Frost_Saber]

archer meta really needs looking at imo, infantry are just generally worse off too.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Range units become increasingly effective with numbers compared to melee units, they fully take advantage of Lanchester' law

[@dragonboytsubasa]

How would you buff the elephant UU's to bump them up to at least B tier if not A or S tier? I always felt like they would be a hard unit to balance because they are elephants. My fave UU's are pretty much all the mounted units except for Elephant Archer. It's hard to decide because they're all really fun to use.

[@ArchsageCanas]

I think the best means to sort unique units is simply by how well they compliment the playstyle of a civilisation. There can be objectively good UUs in a vacuum such as longbows or cataphracts but they still rarely find any play. It's either because the civ has comparable and more convenient units (arbalests vs. longbows) or being way too expensive in most games (cataphracts). Personally, I would push cataphracts even down into B tier. They destroy anything but they need an elite upgrade that is about as expensive as it can get, a unique technology that also costs a lot and possibly blacksmith upgrades as byzantine cavalry is otherwise not the go-to option with the civ. The upfront cost is extreme, on top of an already expensive unit that can only be made from castles. I feel they fit well into the category of a situational unit that can be a win condition if the game goes very late. The tier list looks very solid and even besides that, just discussing some points about each unit is what I view as main focus anyhow.

[@Loreweavver]

I remember one of my favorite 1v1 was with a roommate where he was turtled up as english and i was goth. There was just a steady stream of huskral aimed at his base and he would mass cavalry to defend and i would just switch the queue to halbs for a couple seconds. This went on for awhile till i managed to get in his base through the back and wreck his eco.

[@Reluxthelegend]

31:20 tbh they should just remove the archer armor class from mamelukes.

[@robchang4533]

And the mameluke class and then the FREAKING WHOLE UNIT. It doesnt make any sense historically and game play wise. Imagine a Mounted Axethrowing Genoese Crossbow on a camel. As if a melee CA or a CA with anti cav bonus damage wasnt enough. This unit is broken by design and only held back by the cost and weird armour classes. And all made because devs didn't want to have another cav UU as planned first because byz had already one in cataphracts. Same logic why Jannissaries werent made an archer unit since it collided with Longbows.

[@Reluxthelegend]

@@robchang4533 I like mamelukes.

[@candrarazaka1055]

Mamelukes are weak against the other camels is just a dumb thing for me.

[@Hjortur95]

i didnt even know this Lol

[@Bob-ol6if]

Is the Imp camel a unique unit, or a unit upgrade?, I remember in HD that Samurai didn’t do bonus damage against them. Also I wonder how this would look for Deathmatch. Nice video too.

[@Staklihen]

Imperial Camel Rider and Imperial Skirmisher don't have the Unique Unit Armor Class. Imperial Camel Rider only has the Camel Armor Class and Imperial Skirmisher only has the Archer Armor Class.

[@randybrayshaw9070]

Hey tarkans in the top half, nice

[@drmajalis1583]

Do Mamelukes no longer taking bonus damage from Skirms change their placing?

[@PianoDome]

Cool video, I agree with the most. I probably most disagree with having Kamayuk in A tier and zerks in B tier, because the argument that zerks suck in castle age also applies to kamayuks, especially considering +2 compared with potential +6 pierce armor. Also, zerks move much faster I believe. I would have zerks in A, kamayuks in B, but that's only my opinion :)

[@oskargrabowski126]

TIER LIST HYPE!!!!! (again)

[@JizzleWright1]

Maybe a noob question, but how does Mayans losing Obsidian arrows make plumed archers be seen more? The replacement tech affects a completely different unit

[@Disreflected]

Obsidian Arrows didn't affect plumes and it meant if you wanted to use/abuse this tech you wouldn't make plumes, now that the tech is gone/replaced you have less reasons to not use plumes.

[@alian6965]

Teutonic knights are really fast and tanky af. It literally destroys all infantry and trash units and complements paladins quit good like axemen. A Tier

[@perrytran9504]

The problem is when would you go for them? They destroy trash units but so do champions, and those cost a lot less and are easier to mass. They also don't complement paladins too well since their slow speed means they just get left behind (and again, they cost a lot of food and gold which you already need for paladins.)

[@yoursodumn]

@James I believe it was a joke

[@anilkarakaya9343]

@James they have extremely good creation speed. If you do a very aggressive castle, its worth to train some even without much upgrades. They shouldnt be massed but I like them when assaulting cities or to defend a castle being rammed. I havent tried it with crennelations though.

[@anilkarakaya9343]

@James castle age tk also have 80 hp with 2 base pierce armor. They are quite tanky after an aggressive castle drop when castle targets range units. They do 12 damage with a big +4 damage bonus to buildings. Good for 85 food 40 gold.

[@Augustus_Imperator]

Bersekers deserve S just for the fact that they heal themselves

[@TheGiacomo12345]

In general agree with the list, but Genitour for me is a high B, it's not widely used because for berbers players still used cavalry for archers, but when Genitour appears they totally change the dynamic, situational but still useful in general. I'm not a good player...consider it.

[@globuspolski707]

As someone who doesn’t actually play this game much and only really watches it, what’s so special about Plumes? Are they just really good archers?

[@e4y34zdfg]

Looking rough Ornlu

[@Dlohosh]

I like the elephant archer idea, but they would really deserve a buff, like faster firing rate or higher damage. As for now they are only good in the Prithviraj campaign, there's usually no reason to make them in MP. They look cool though.

[@robchang4533]

Make them the Dravidian Unique Unit. Cholas are famous for having "towers" stacked with archers on elephants. GIVE US MUMAKIL. So multiple archers mounting the elephant, and maybe being able to, if not forced to a target to attack two independent units, sounds quite interesting

[@renzoraschioni3886]

@@robchang4533 not possible in the Aoe2 engine. I'd like to see an other strategy game featuring Dravidians, instead of asking for them in this old, old game.

[@robchang4533]

@@renzoraschioni3886 Did you see that they just recently added 2 new civs ? This game is not too old for innovation and fixing of old mistakes.

[@renzoraschioni3886]

@@robchang4533 they can add how many civs they want, make tournaments, patches, the competitive playerbase will still play, but this will remain a game from 1999. The core game is still the same, you can't change it. For example, your suggestion of buffing the elephant archer by make it shoot at multiple targets at the same time is simply not possible due to limitations in the game engine. You can't make a unit shoot at two different targets. What I was trying to say is I want to see Indian civilizations too, but I'd prefer a new game centered around India history and its diversity, rather than a new far-fetched expansion in this game, which was born Eurocentric, is still Eurocentric (Sicilians and Burgundians were added in the last one), and will be Eurocentric.

[@theowlogram888]

I've heard that nowadays in DM Indian mirrors are just ele archer spam 11

[@lucamarino1226]

i agree with everything exept cataphracts (+arbalest) and berserks (+ siege rams) easily S tier just because they are so good in so many different enemy comp, boyar A it's a slight better paladin basically good for team games

[@Matt-ln7lb]

I'd put Cataphracts, Genoese Crossbows, Tarkans, Flemish Militia, and Samurai in B tier. Maybe Condottieros as well. Cataphracts are way too expensive to tech into, and them being specialized vs infantry makes them match up dependent. Genoese Crossbows build too slow to mass effectively, and have shorter range than crossbows/arbs, so can't be used on their own. Tarkans are pretty much always worse than the knight line, so there's little reason to make them. The only problem with Flemish militia is that you lose your eco for them. They're basically champions with the DPS of halbs vs cavalry. Samurai are better than woads and see regular use in pro play. Putting them a tier lower than Woads seems a bit ridiculous to me... Condottieros are weak post-imp, but not needing a unit upgrade to get an imperial age unit is a big deal; they're fantastic early imp and for raiding to push an advantage, in a civ that has reduced age up costs.

[@ahmadbenjamin4462]

Tarkan raids. Try it. They're cheaper than knights and if you have a certain number and youre in the opponents base, you shred every single town center you see. And with Huns mobility they can hit and run with their Cav Archer.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@ahmadbenjamin4462 For the most part Knight raids can do the same thing as Tarkan raids, but knights are generally a stronger unit. B tier doesn't mean they're bad, just that they aren't something you make the mainstay of your army like any of the other A tier units, and even some B tier units; Shotel Warriors are also great for raiding and shred TCs, but they're still C tier. Berserks are better than Tarkans, and are used for the mainstay of Viking armies in late game in most match ups, but are still B tier on that tier list, because they aren't worth going for until imp.

[@kunth1819]

Ballista Elephants D tier? So you have chosen death. Btw. I am so sad no one plays them at top level. If they are massed and FU, they are virtually unbeatable. They are most likely the strongest UU if massed except War Elephants. I still fondly remember one 2v2 game almost a year ago. Hideout, 1500 TG Elo. My friend (Franks) was struggling against Goths player, I got rekt by Incas vill rush early on but my friend managed to save me. Then, I boomed into Ballista Elephants and the Incas player was ready with 50 Halbs thinking he could stop my deathball of 50 Ballista Elephants. Halbs basically disappeared and my Elephants were unscathed. I imagine enemy shock when he was thinking he got perfect counter against my Elephants and then bam, halbs were erased from the map. I also won Battle Royale game with 200 Ballista Elephants. People accused me of cheating in a jest. Fun times.

[@CG-eh6oe]

But you CANT mass them and fully upgrade. You just wont get the res in time before your opponent pushes you off the map. I mean ofc 50 super expensive units beat 50 trash units. But you invest so, so many res and even still lose to enemy siege.

[@Tomi168]

is imp skirmisher a unique unit?

[@ateium2409]

I still don’t know how to pronounce the Janissery so I just call them as Gunmen .

[@khoing1111]

"cavalry normally counter archer right". Oh, maybe I am in the minority here but for me, cavalry rarely counters archer, not at mass which is almost always the case. No, I am not salty at all,... Maybe a little. But I tired of playing medieval games where nine out of ten times it is all about range fight and not infantry fight. Using archer in AOE2 feels like playing with guns and I am just so bored of it.

[@29rogans7]

If only the devs would replace useless supplies upgrade for like +2 pierce armor for infantry so infantry strats would finally have a chance. And if u gonna say that it will be op it always could be balanced out by making exceptions on pike line and fast infantry units, or split tech on 2 parts +1 parmor in feudal and +1 in castle.

[@LaveshNK]

In equal numbers, cavalry definitely wreck archers. Its all about mass with archers, and if you manage to tarnish that mass before castle age, then the archer guy will have a hard time getting that mass up and running again It's all about mass with the archer player and all about matching that mass with the cavalry

[@niksutliff]

@@29rogans7 I'd like it if they reintroduced Tracking, but it gave the militia line +2 attack versus Archers or 1 pierce armor or something. It's just that given how braindead easy archers are to micro militia are almost totally useless without support. Team games being almost solely Cav and archers gets annoying quick.

[@CrnaStrela]

Hell no, giving pierce armor will just let them destroy TC in Feudal. I understand swordsman line is in the sad spot atm, but buffing it that way would make them broken. Instead of making them good against archers, it would be better to make them good in something else. Increase arson bonus only with them for example, or make them attack slightly faster would be a better way to fix them. We don't need huskarl mk2 that is accessible to a lot of civs, the role of archer killer infantries should stay with Huskarls and Eagles.

[@berkut3919]

Lovely but I disagree with you in a few cases. I feel genoese should be in B. They have less range in castle age but they also arent chu ko nu. Strong in later stage clash but feels situational with that castle age performance. Boyars should be B too imo. Castle age boyars are +2atk +2armor knights. They are like cavaliers. There is nothing wrong to mix some in knights if you have a castle. Elite boyars are paladins with crappy design and slavs have nicer options for late but elite upgrade being cheaper and much faster might be relevant in rare team games. Boyars feel more relevant than the other units in C.

[@kingradovidv4524]

Expansion tier list when?

[@Wobbuffet0]

Where would you put Steppe Lancers, Eagle Warriors, and Battle Elephants?

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Kind of hard to compare those psuedo-UUs as they are available to different civs, but in general probs Eagles in S tier, SLancers in C Tier, and Battle Elephants in B Tier (except Khmer elephants which are S Tier)

[@WWFanatic0]

Delete coustillier from the game. Flemish Militia becomes the castle UU for Burgundians. Flemish Revolution allows them to be trained at the barracks and upgrades the Flemish Militia in some way (lots of options, I'd favor a discount or move speed bonus as it would be thematic for a horde of revolutionaries in my opinion). We get rid of a controversial tech, a controversial unit mechanic, and make the Flemish Militia unit actually usable.

[@Hainaut183]

I'm surprised as well by how high Tarkans are on the tier list. Even with Marauders, Huns being a Paladin civ makes Paladins seem like a much better option. Tarkans aren't THAT much cheaper, and their attack is slow and 3 less than Paladins in the Elite stage, so Paladins are just much more versatile. If Huns were denied Paladin, then I would agree with Tarkans being A. Also, Marauders still requires you to research an extra tech that basically compensates for the discount versus Knights, which you can start massing more immediately.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

It's less about being comparable to the Knight-line and more about being an anti-archer/raiding unit. Tarkans very importantly have one more pierce armor than Knights/Paladins, making archers incredibly difficult to make work vs them. Even cav archers will struggle in my experience. The fact that they can also destroy buildings is really helpful for both raiding and snowballing games. What I mean by the latter is this situation: Opponent is producing very large numbers of archers. Huns miss Onagers and have meh Skirms so -> Tarkan switch Tarkans start to trade very effectively vs archers -> opponent starts to switch into halbs/camels Tarkans kill all the buildings before they can get up and running. GGEZ Happens more often then you'd think :)

[@Hainaut183]

@@zigge_ I just think that when there are so many cases where the Knight-line is a better option for Huns, then a unit that the civ is not so dependent on like Goths are on Huskarls or Bulgarians are on Konniks doesn't deserve to be A-tier.

[@Hainaut183]

@@OrnLu_AoE Tarkans still have less HP than Knights and Paladins still usually make mincemeat out of archers. SotL's video really made the Tarkan seem very situational, good as a meat shield alongside Cav Archers but not really as versatile and regularly worth replacing such a good Knight-line.

[@nicholasdalby5178]

@@OrnLu_AoE The way Tarkans destroy gates is insane

[@Popcornio]

You should of put the stats of the unit you're talking about on the screen and maybe some extra critical information (like bonus damage). Otherwise, interesting video to listen to.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Not a bad idea for future videos! Although that would add a ton of extra work LUL

[@LotsOfS]

It would also help knowing what civ these are from. Ornlu's videos are very clearly targeted towards an audience that's very familiar with aoe2, making them hard to follow along for more casual players like me

[@AshritR]

I came here after seeing D tier Mangudai in the thumbnail

[@doe6974]

People always underesrimate karambit. Super cheap, fast, and takes up a slot in rams. With a military population of 100. You can have 20 capped rams, 100 karambits in them, plus another 30 pop for elephants, archers, w/e. No defence can hold against 20 fully stacked rams.

[@reto6859]

Nice teerlist and i agree with Nearly all of ist, But I have one unit in a very different tier and Thats the Leitis. Leitis Are in mele one of the strongest units. If you have 2 Relics you cant Even use pikemen against them because they are equally Cost eficient But better in population efficiency. There are a lot of civs, that dont really Want to Go for archers like celts, Teutons or franks and those civs have in Late Game Not a Real Counter to the leitis if you have at least 2 relics. There are matchups in the game, where simply this Unit is winning you the game. For me Leitis are definitely S Tier. Even at the lowest market prize you can sell Wood to get gold and you are still on equal Terms with halbs if you fight Them one on one! I actually think that this unit is Even op in some matchups and needs a nerf. For me its definitely S Tier! Dont know, what you guys think. Great video! I Love those Tierlists! :)

[@PhoenixAlaris93]

Wonder where the Hussite Wagon, Houtnice and Obuch would go

[@youcanthandlethetruth5433]

I've won many arena games with woads in castle age. S tier unit

[@The_Room_2_Doggys_Revenge]

i see a pattern : archers / cav archers dominate the higher tiers

[@emilyding2496]

Mangudai, of course.

[@Tocaraca]

Mamelukes in D? Lol

[@jameskelly945]

viks berserks need to be A tier. they are a key part of vik late game since archer nerf and inf buff

[@kankantona9070]

I would agree with most of it, except arambai (no longer S, huge nerf for early to mid castle age), cataphract (C to me, both unit añd upgrade cost are too high, non elite is simply too bad. And they just have a small win battling imperial camels in equal numbers without logistica) and boyar (A to me, fast training speed, cheaper upgrade cost than paladin, its Slav's "teutonic paladin")

[@OrnLu_AoE]

You are allowed to disagree! That's half the reason of making these videos :) (that said, I still stand by my opinions :P)

[@theobald_indoaoe]

Boyar is the most disappointing cavalry UU in the game. Rarely did I see them get involved in battle. They are too expensive and hard to mass. They are also the second slowest cavalry/heavy cavalry in the game (at movement speed 1.43) after Teutons Paladin (at movement speed 1.35). Of course they don't perform well as Teutons Paladin. They are just slow and hard to mass. They are also easy to counter.

[@kankantona9070]

@@theobald_indoaoe u keep repeating “slow and hard to mass”, i wonder if this is a comment for DE？ Boyar train time decreased from 23 to 15s. If anything they are the easiest massing cavalry uu in the game. They are 5 gold more than paladin, but the upgrade cost is 450 gold LESS...u can do the maths. Not to mention the food cost is much less. "U rarely see it" coz u also rarely see Leitis, cataphract in the game. Cavalry uu just arent common in open maps. For speed difference of 1.3 and 1.35, i really dont see much difference practically in most cases..not to mention elite boyar takes less than 1 min to upgrade while cav+pala take 4MINS...yes they arent as good as teutonic paladin...BUT they outperformed cavaliers in almost every way.

[@kankantona9070]

@@OrnLu_AoE man, trying hard to convince u 😂 boyar 14+4 attack 6+3/3+4 armor, 15s train time, 50f. 80G, 1000f 600g; cataphract 12+2, 2+3/1+4, 20s, 70f 75g, 1200f 800g, 800f 600g)! And if u think Leitis 1p armor is a problem, then its a equal problem for cataphract! Just need a meat shield and mass arbalest can do well against them. One thing i missed tho, they are great vs meso civs who dont have proper meat shield vs them. Otherwise even malay light cav is an okay meat shield for arbalests.

[@theobald_indoaoe]

@@kankantona9070 Talking about late game. I often saw Konniks, Cataphracts and especially Leitis picked in game, but not Boyars. Which pros using Boyar in game and even massing them? Boyars are just too expensive and need Castle. They don't have high DPS and are easily to counter since they are very slow. On the other hand, other heavy cavalry UU have promising values when they are produced. Slavs also have the more important tech, Druzhina, with cost 1200f 500g. Leitis are top tier UU since they have the highest DPS (18-22) and are the fastest heavy cavalry in the game (at movement speed 1.54) with cheapest gold cost. With at least two relics, they beat almost everything and perform much better than Boyars. They beat Camels when Boyars can't. Byzantines have cheaper trash units, so player can invest rss to FU Cataphracts if opponents rely on halbs. Cataphracts are very hard to counter. They seem very weak against archers, but they do trample damage to grouped archers just like Leitis which with fast speed and 2 hits chasing and killing an arbalest. If I am given 20 Boyars or 20 Leitis against 20 FU Cavalry archers. I'd pick Leitis since they are fast and need only 4 hits to take down a cavalry archer while Boyar needs 7 hits. Boyars are just useless compared with other heavy cavalry UU. FU halb kill Boyar, Paladin and Leitis with the same 5 hits. I always say Boyars are disappointing because they need buff, not the creation time, but the cost or HP. Why could Leitis with much cheaper cost perform too much better than Boyars which are too expensive? Slavs just rely on Infantry, early knight, hussar spam, and Rams. Boyars are definitely disappointing as castle UU.

[@kloppenheimer1]

Longbowmen are S+ TIER. come on Ornlu

[@hanflingch]

What about an UU smell tier list?

[@tnc7685]

That framed SNSD photo tho

[@suyash5608]

Any good team can own Indian pocket, especially now. Just keep the flanks/archer player strong.

[@habibprihandono2054]

my top 5 unique units: 1. mangudai 2. longbowman 3. kamayuk 4. elephant archer 5. magyar huszar

[@jacobji4348]

Cheapen cataphract and Make Byzantine Great Again!!!

[@nicholasdalby5178]

Yeah, Cataphract and its upgrades are too expensive

[@encoreperformance1081]

Very well done! Only one problem, why wasn't the condottiero a S. 11 Also 0:59 was smooth as butter.

[@renzoraschioni3886]

Well, I know how to spend the next 42 minutes.

[@konnosx1213]

Am I the only one who refers to Rattan archers as "Raidens"...

[@ahbraveconscript997]

supremacy villager s+ [Heya Heyya]

[@WiseMasterNinja]

Villagers: 10, Skirmishers:10, Monks: 5, Flaming camels: 175 someone who is good with army compositions please help me improve this. I keep losing :(

[@nicholaswoollhead6830]

Make less flaming camels

[@WiseMasterNinja]

@@nicholaswoollhead6830 No

[@lucamarino1226]

it's good comp maybe mix in some petard and rams

[@adventuresofavalon2477]

I feel that Longbowmen should have a tier all to themselves - VA( Very Annoying) 11😂

[@Payhellbay]

AI microing 12 range longbows individually in campaigns seriously gave ptsd to a whole generation

[@adventuresofavalon2477]

@@Payhellbay Yeah especially in Joan of Arc campaign.

[@maledikt]

@@Payhellbay Yeah, don't remind me...

[@Frost_Saber]

Buff infantry!

[@alvaroromo7633]

I really like archer elephant :c

[@Halvtooth]

fun fact post imp slinger vs elite throwing axemen, slingers win.

[@iwersonsch5131]

4:13 Hideout/Hamburger/Bypass would like to have a word with you

[@theanimer1]

I'd be biased on this. Magyar huszar would be S just because you will win in the end due to no gold spent. What honestly counters huszar/cav archer? One is a trash unit but stats that are almost a cavalier. Other is the sniper of cav archers. I love when I just flood say a Frank's player to death. Ohh their paladin beats my guy. But what about 3? They lost 75 gold. I lose some food ohh no. Be a shame most of my eco is food production. Also I never got them never being used in team games. Imo they shine in team games too. Elite aren't that much worse then cavalier. So you can use the gold you would have used on either more cav archers or more siege.

[@Markell1991]

Pretty sure Caravels do not get any attack bonus against Longboats.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Sorry if I was unclear in the video - Caravels are awesome against Longboats not because of any special bonus damage, but rather because Longboats clump up waaaay more than any other war ship. This makes the pass-through damage of Caravels significantly more likely to hit 5-6 enemy ships per hit.

[@evanrudibaugh8772]

Karambits are only useful for "ay karambit" and "karambitcoin" jokes.

[@nikhilchauhan7914]

Berserks are now A tier

[@thescribe509]

21:00 techincally they're only missing one melee armor in Imp, they're one pierce armor short of where they used to be because they had one bonus armor on camels in general and the last armor tech, now they get +2 pierce armor on all cav but miss the last armor tech. So exactly speaking, they had their extra pierce in Imperial removed and lost a melee armor. 24:48 they're called the two-handed trashmen. they take out the trash with two hands. 27:45 I agree with the premise of lacking pierce armor being a problem on cav units. However, I'm curious why you hold the Cataphract in higher regards in spite of that. Is it moreso the use case where Cataphracts will be strong against *more* things than the Leitis? I honestly don't have a strong opinion on this, but I feel like the Leitis is better as a general-use unit on it's cost. Sweet Mangudai joke, what year are you from, 1999?

[@seanjohnston6257]

Appreciate the tier list but don't really see how Catas are A and Zerks are B. IMO are surprisingly similar. Castle age are terrible, Imp they're good and post Imp they're very good only losing to ranged units or slightly to heavier versions of their own type (eg Paladin v Cata or T Knight v Zerk). Happy to be proven wrong but I really don't see how Catas are not viable or better, to me they're very on par.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Catas are viable in Castle Age! You see this sometimes with Byzantines vs an Eagle Warrior civ (or Goths). Even a few Cataphracts can be absolutely devastating to infantry. With Berserks, they are downright bad until you get full upgrades, and even then, they are just stronger versions of the swordsmen line. Berserks are sick in late game, but are still generally easier to counter than Cataphracts. Also, Byzantines have an easier time getting to late game than Vikings.

[@peterpeterson4800]

I think you are missing steppe lancers. And eagle warriors and battle elephants. They are not really unique units, since a few civs have them, and I guess you would have to judge them by the civ that has the best ones.

[@ethanbrown4167]

unique unit is a unit class. if samurai have a bonus vs them they are a unique unit. battle elephants steppe lancers and eagle warriors are not unique units

[@adventuresofavalon2477]

Good job. First one here

[@MrDanzoShimura]

Burgundians TIER A

[@vbw4551]

Don't skrims counter Mangudai, like cav archers

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Kind of? They are cost-efficient if they are fully upgraded, but even so, Mangudai have such high DPS that they can sttill chew through skirms

[@kawong1607]

Rattan feel strange. They look amazing on paper. But archers need mass to work. In most occasions you are better off with arbs as they are easier to mass and cheaper to upgrade. The anti archer aspect is not really that important in Vietnamese army as they have imp skirm. These two factors altogether just make rattan kinda pointless to make in most games.

[@Vektordeformacio]

if they would move faster or had better frame. they are clunky bc they are not Mangudei

[@theowlogram888]

Well they do run faster and are harder to kill, so their mass can be preserved better, and they also deal more damage than normal archers so you don't need as big of a mass to start dishing out pain.

[@Voider6211]

You also have to consider pop efficiency as the game goes on. You want to make the most out of your pop space later on, and Skirms, even Imp Skirms, just don't do that. Plus they're awful vs siege and cavalry, both of which Rattans can hold their own against significantly better. I think at some point, you'd want to make that transition.

[@emadsaberi]

Rattans also train quickly. In castle age, one castle produces about as fast as two archery ranges. They're faster than archers, have more attack than archers, and as such are more difficult to counter by siege and knights. They're incredibly powerful in castle age as well as in imperial age.

[@andresm.t.3054]

we need an update please!

[@Asterix958]

In conclusion Cav Archer > Cav > foot archer > infantry. Archers and cavalries dominate the game and infantries is low tier although infantry is backbone of the real world armies.

[@Vektordeformacio]

Catas, Genoeese crossbows and Magyar Huszars are the top units.

[@29rogans7]

dunno man, your tier list feels so random. 1) flemish milita its champion+halbedier in 1, its pretty crazy and even needs nerf no way its d tier. 2)how jaguar could be B tier and Samurai be C tier, when Samurai is stronger 1vs1, Jaguar will never be as effective against champs+halbs as archers anyway and all high pierce armor units is unique units so Samurai will deal with them better too, also Samurai 10% faster moving. 3) Gbeto and throwing axeman making Malians and Franks 1 of the best civs of the game, because they could kill and infinity amount of halbs, hussars and camels, mix of knights and ranged melee units have almost no counter. But also they protect castles from being trebed of ramed down and they are just B tier 4) Mameluke is kinda unit that destroys everything except archers with high effiency and its on D tier, its hard to get rotating in real game, but its always hard to make castle units rotating, i almost never see any unique units from all civs mentioned in A tier in challenging game. while Imperial camel that is getting destroyed by Mamelukes, being weaker then Saracen heavy camel and its upgrade is so expensive is A tier=/

[@yoursodumn]

1) he explains the reason. Flemish militia are basically an all in option that is rarely used and rarely effective. You can't make them until you trash your entire economy and then can only make them at TCs, which you'd likely be using to replace all the villagers you just converted. On their own, yeah, they are good, but the bar to being able to use them is super high.

[@adventuresofavalon2477]

Hi

[@suyash5608]

Conqs in DE are not as good as the voobly ones.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Well, the only change they got was that they now take a couple of extra bonus damage from Elite Skirms. They also used to have a bug that made them less accurate than they should be , but that was fixed in a recent update

[@emilyding2496]

Nerf BRITONS pls

[@yoyodude-aoe2726]

There should be f teir for elephant archers.