Cultish: What is the Word of Faith Movement? (Part 2)

[@michelledemarco5797]

I've seen every cultish and probably every durbin video known to man on KZbin. The way Steven articulated the standpoint from which Copeland and others are coming from regarding faith being a metaphysical force that does the work rather than faith being simply the acknowledgement of us being fallen creatures putting our trust and acknowledgement in Christ alone. Christ being the unmoved mover. This was one of the most well articulated video thus far pertaining to the new age and word of faith teachers today.

[@carissamitchell8071]

True

[@justachristian4072]

This might help: faith is a synonym of trust.

[@Culture-and]

I appreciate you all bringing on Steven because he has experience in this area, and he's still a continuationist! He's able to look at this topic without the cessationist bias. Very helpful! God still does miracles. Holy Spirit still distributes spiritual gifts. God does respond to our faith, in Jesus. The key is that God has to give us faith as a gift. It comes from Him, not our words nor our own strength. God is the beginning and end to our faith. It's all about Jesus!

[@woofbark4475]

I think most sensible readings of the scriptures cannot deny God gives various gifts still today. I think where I draw the line is with those who claim that they have all the sign gifts of an apostle.

[@wolverine114]

cessationism doesn’t mean there are no more miracles. We believe in miracles. We believe in healing (as the Bible teaches us to pray for healing, etc). It’s simply that the APOSTOLIC sign gifts are no longer around. So we believe god can heal, but we don’t believe individuals have the gift to heal (as the apostles did). Sorry if it sounds like I’m assuming you’re saying we don’t believe in miracles. God bless!

[@Culture-and]

@@wolverine114 I just don't think there's a strong argument for that. "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. 1 Corinthians 12:4‭-‬11. It clearly says gifts of healing. You have to do some serious proof texting to claim some of those gifts are operational but others are not. I still don't believe healing is automatic for those who have the gift, just that they have extra grace to see healing in their life, perhaps more frequently amd powerfully.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@Culture-and actually Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

[@Culture-and]

@@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 That’s one verse about faith. We have a whole Bible. Have you read 1.Cor. 12:7-9? “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12‬:‭7‬-‭9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@rachelfranks4450]

Deconstructing currently from the word of faith doctrine. I’ve grown up in it, and God bless you all for this. So helpful 🙏

[@bsusie1]

Me also, it has taken lots of repentance from years of wrong beliefs. However freedom too of learning to trust without the burden of trying to obtain more faith.

[@bb-od9ku]

How is it going now I'm just starting?

[@songsgardensbyjenniferlynn3242]

I love seeing Melissa and Steven on this show! You all are making awesome videos for me to share--I'm not a great communicator and I really appreciate you all speaking clearly about this subject. Thank you!!!

[@genxnerd74]

I was raised in the WOF and believed in most all of the tenets until about 5 years ago. I started to relearn who God really is and what the bible really says about a year ago. This video is so hard to hear but necessary for me to continue my journey of healing. The spiritual trauma that this false teaching leaves in it's wake is brutal. Thanks for what you do at Cultish 👍

[@amypositan2111]

Thank you for posting these videos. I bought into the WOF movement and used to love preachers like Copeland and Hagin. I started questioning their teachings a few years ago and discovered that their teachings on faith are not biblical. It was hard but I’m glad I’m not under that pressure anymore! Praise Jesus for His freedom.

[@jdoodle607]

I was brought up in WOF movement. when you guys explain the scripture it make so much sense. I felt physically sick for a few days when I first realised what I was being taught, I was depressed and I felt like I was in a period of repentance, i am realising there is so much I have to unlearn and I don’t know which preachers to listen to now, worship....it is so ingrained in the church that you almost can’t get away from it. What an idiot I have been!!

[@darlamiller882]

Justin Peters... John MacArthur...start there.

[@bsusie1]

@@darlamiller882 they both are Calvinist, which teaches wrong doctrine too.

[@71Psalms]

I came wof too. Been scribing the Bible and looking up blood scriptures and wisdom and knowledge and understanding scriptures

[@TanyaMBowers]

Let each eye opening moment push us Closer to God through His son Jesus. May we spend more time in the Perfect Word and less time listening to the fallible man. In Jesus’ name. You are not alone Sister…take each thought captive and bring it to the obedience of Christ. We are not condemned in Christ Jesus. May we let our God sorrow lead us to God and stand firm and move on. His mercies are new EVERYDAY! May we stand firm. Keep our eyes up on Jesus. (Hebrews 12:2) and walk in the freedom of God’s Forgiveness and Love! In Jesus’ name.

[@bb-od9ku]

It is depressing

[@arianarubytemple6008]

This is SO EYE OPENING!!!! I can't thank you guys enough for these videos. God bless you millions of times over!!!!!

[@noelmyburgh8040]

Thank you so much, you have really opened up the truth against the WOF error.

[@akaditges]

Thank you so much for this informative interview. I'm from Germany and went to a church in Berlin that teaches on the basis of the "word of faith" movement. I was first drawn to this church because the sermon was really great and seemed to be biblical. However I knew something wasnt right when they put such focus on experiencing the holy spirit (physical manifestation) and also to be baptised in the "holy spirit of fire". I have been a christian (knowing gods word, growing in the Lord) for a long time so I knew something wasnt right with this teaching. But other members of the church were new believers and they didnt understand why I left. For me the biggest challenge was the realisation of the fact that even though the pastor was PROCLAIMING Jesus, the spiritual manifestations like holy laughter or drunk in the spirit ect. where not from the holy spirit but from other spirits of the dark world. Thats why it took me a few weeks to make a decision even though I was praying for the truth and god showed me. He pulled me out eventually after they prayed for my back injury to heal and after that it got worse to the point of me being in the hospital and being on sick leave for three months. Doesnt mean it is their fault but I was told that my faith was not enough if I wouldnt get healed. This was my breaking point there, soI left. I always wondered why I never felt anything or had any experiences concerning the maifestations of the holy spirit but my fruits as a believer where always there and my focus was fixed on Jesus. I never needed a physical "touch" from him to feel worthy, I knew believing was by faith. The leader of this church now wants a last meeting with me to ask why I left. I will do that as soon as I am painfree and have written everything down. For now I am reading the bible more than ever and can show them exactly what is wrong with their teaching. I know I might not have a huge influence on them but I need to make a statement and confront them. I have dear friends in this church who reject any kind of warning or critisism and this really worries me. So thank you for your teaching on this subject of the word of faith movement....my plan is to wirte down everything and hand it over to the ones I know who are blinded by this teaching. And one more thing....just as in the US, Germany has a huge growing number of "believers" attending holy spirit conferences, hillsong church, saddle back church, bethel ect. Hence there is a big deception of believers going on in many different churches. It either focuses on the word of faith movement or/and the teaching is based on the selfcentered gospel. I rarely hear any teaching on repenting or actually seeing people having a sense of fear for the lord. I am not a perfect person at all but I went to all these churches for a short period of time to test them and the church services just disgust or confuse me. For now I am watching online services from John McArthur from "Grace to you" church in LA. However, I want to find a community in Berlin soon again. It is just not that easy to find a church with the right teachting anymore. So thank you so much for your channel! It helps me learn more about the truth, to talk to non believers about the Gospel and also to argue about the sin of abortion. Please pray for Germany that many might see the truth and come to repentance. God bless you, praying for your ministry and chanel. Keep up the great work - we need you!

[@freddhernanadez2230]

Hi there brother hope you doing better. Very glad you found the Light( Jesus Christ , the REAL Jesus of the Bible). HE'S the one that gave the ability to discern these heretical teachings. Amen to that. Now brother it gets deeper than this ok. Thank God you put here that for now you're watching john MacArthur on grace to you channel. He's a false teacher as well. I was actually listening to him as well for a few months last year. Right off the bat 2 huge lies he said made me stop on my tracks. 1) that Our Lord Jesus blood is NOT holy " but just regular blood".2) that in the end times if you take the mark of the beast you can STILL make it to Heaven. How about that?? For more details on OTHER corrupt MacArthur teachings( and so many others) go this channel my brother; " Servis Christi". God bless you

[@christinacoleman4795]

Wow, such an amazing testimony! It breaks my heart that finding a church with sound teaching is hard to come by in Berlin, but I hope you’re doing well. God bless!

[@megancrilley1878]

Thanks guys, this was really great to listen to and learn from. Unfortunately even some mainstream Baptist churches (here in Australia) are adopting teachings of the new thought movement. Its really sad and concerning. Keep up the great interviews/discussions, may God continue to bless your ministry.

[@kaseythomas9646]

Because of Him this has been one of the best seasons of peace and joy for me as I trust God no matter what happens. I like to tell others, "I've read the book and know how it turns out in the end!"

[@lickteig95]

Thankyou to all of you comming together and talking about these very important subjects!🙌✝️

[@richardpaggi9988]

This was so good, thanks for posting these videos will be definitely sharing with people that need to hear this!! God‘s blessings to you all and thank you for this channel!!

[@stefanusmurrayterblanche4977]

Thanks for the insight to this movement. I always tried to have an open mind about things concerning God, not wanting to put Him inside a box. But the Word of God is clear when studied in its context and with the help of the Holy Spirit. God doesn't have to heal us, even though He obviously can. He is love and peace and all things beautiful and He gives and takes away...for He is God. God bless you guys.

[@seanvann1747]

He doesn't "have to" because He already has.. 1 Peter 2:24 King James Bible Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Be blessed brother :)

[@stefanusmurrayterblanche4977]

@@seanvann1747 Amen brother. I just know that so many professing Christian expect physical healing all the time. But he has taken away our sins once and for all. Thank you for responding 🙏😌

[@seanvann1747]

@@stefanusmurrayterblanche4977 A few questions for you brother... Was Jesus ever sick?? Did Jesus ever give sickness?? Did Jesus always heal all that came to him?? Are we not to be... Romans 8:29 Berean Study Bible For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. Please hear my heart :) Be blessed brother!

[@stefanusmurrayterblanche4977]

@@seanvann1747 thanks for the questions about Jesus and the scripture from Romans. I thought about these questions for a while and I want to answer you in humility. It is true that it was never recorded in the Bible that Jesus became sick or that he made people sick. We know he healed those who came to him, even those who drew near with faith like the lady who touched his robe and were healed. But we have to be very careful when we compare Jesus with ourselves. It is also important not to read something outside its original context. I went back and read the whole of chapter 8 and a few things are made quite clear. Jesus sets us free from the demands of the law...we are no longer condemned but set free..if indeed we beling to him. We, who were called, are now living according to the Spirit and not the flesh....and we can now put to death any earthly passions we used to crave by the work of the Spirit that lives inside us. To rightly understand v.29 we have to read from v.12 all the way through. It shows how we have been adopted as sons because we belong to Jesus. When it talks about him being the firstborn, it doesn't mean that we share in his divinity, but rather in his saving work on the cross. We have the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, the one that aids us now to walk according to the Spirit so we can honor and please God as He demands it to be....with a pure and unblemished spirit. Looking also at the context of the Hebrews during that time we can find a significance with being a son and especially being the firstborn. Being a son means you receive more from your father than if you were a daughter (even though the title of sonship applies to women as well today) When it says that Jesus was the firstborn we have to be very careful because here many heresies have originated like the JW using it to show that Jesus was a created being and not God incarnate. Jesus is the forerunner of our faith. He was the perfect sacrifice but he also lived the perfect live on earth as an example to us but also to fulfill all the laws and prophecies of old. He conquered death and now gives life to those who call on his name. He inherited all things from the Father because of his willing obedience and can now give it to all who believe in what he has done. V.17 and 18 also show that we might even suffer for the sake of knowing and sharing this message...but Paul shows that we share in the future glorification that Jesus purchased. We have life on earth free from the bondage of sin...even though we still suffer physically from persecution or illness because we still live in a fallen world...we have a heavenly inheritance because of Jesus....and Romans 8 ends in such a powerful way by showing that was because of love that Jesus chose to suffer and die on the cross for our sins....and because he was raised again we have a hope that is sure and true... This love we receive from God cannot seperate us from Him...even if we die we will live on in the heavenly realm where God resides. Brother, God can heal when He wills it and He can save when he calls us to Him. Always look at the broader context of the passage you read. We tend to read ourselves into the text which is not what the original purpose of the text implied. There are Biblical principles we can take on and apply in our lives but we have to always tread carefully when we want to use scripture to our own ends. Justin Peters and Benny Hinns nephew talk about Scripture that we use out of context which i found very helpful. I hope and pray that God will show us the truth always so we can glorify Him rightly. Hope this was helpful brother Sean. Let me know what you think😌🙏

[@seanvann1747]

@@stefanusmurrayterblanche4977 I appreciate your heart brother. I also appreciated the time you took to write this. I can see that you are still pressing into the truth. I'm glad you agree that we are to be conformed into the image of Christ. The same Jesus that was never sick and always healed all that came to Him. 😁 Now do you also believe that Matthew 19:26 Berean Study Bible Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” And if so why do we put limitations on what He can do in us and through us NOW not in the "sweet by and by". Once again hear my heart and my encouragement to you in what I write. Be blessed my brother.

[@glorycapture3066]

I'm so glad this is on KZbin. Keep up the good work! Another aspect of, "life and death is in the power of the tongue" is in the context of a witness on the stand. In God's Law the testimony of two or three witnesses could sentence somebody to death or have them acquitted: life and death. The idea that somehow we can speak things into existence like God or access this "force" called, "faith" is completely foreign to the authors and the original audience of scripture as you rightly point out.

[@paulajames6149]

So inspired to get into the bible more. Thanks Melissa and Steven! I am reminded of God’s great power from your testimonies.

[@Jaxorian]

Hey I need the Kenneth Copland video of him saying 'Jesus is a 6'1 man'. My mom doesn't believe he ever said that.

[@charlesco7413]

It says: While he was in the flesh Jesus was not a handsome man that women would desire him. He was average in appearance, so logically his height was also just average. Remember he is now a spiritual being and is no longer governed by fleshly worth. So his height and physical form comply to Gods desires made into a manifestation of perfection worthy of his Glory.

[@keatonrood8746]

Can’t... stop... watching

[@kitnewlin3068]

What you're doing is so very necessary. As one who used to be a part of all you talked about there are so many who are still lost in confessing, decreeing, declaring etc. Don't know if you've already covered it but it would be awesome to hear an in depth discussion on the dangers of the Seven Mountains Mandate , the New Apostolic Reformation and the horrific teachings regarding prophecy. Thanks so much!!! Blessings!!!

[@afbriant]

Pretty strange that the movement claims everything is based on "faith" but there is an insane amount of works that you need to for this to work...

[@DianaCrrll]

I love this podcast!!!!

[@ek8102]

Love this! Thank you. God bless.

[@amadeusasimov1364]

"God HAS to heal you, God, MUST heal you." God: What you just say!? I do what I want!

[@keldonherriman]

This discussion really blew me away.....

[@MiguelBaptista1981]

Only 8 dislikes from satan. He's too worried about himself to give that much attention to your channel, God be praised. Godbless you all.

[@Justin_Case702]

A good recommendation to everyone is watch the documentary American Gospel, it’s really compelling and factual

[@StIsidoreHomestead]

Thanks for the live! Loved it

[@timsharpe6652]

Laughed at "your best Pandemic now " 😅

[@jessiemoore1461]

Me to lol

[@sagenosnibor9173]

So did I 😂

[@OCEANSINSPACE]

@@sagenosnibor9173 Yea, then later he goes who knows where we will be in 2 weeks.... And now its like where in 2 years, sad. Cheers tho!

[@darylgiffin3235]

The best critique of the WOF movement, esp. the 'mechanics' of it, that I've ever heard. Thank you!

[@jaquirox6579]

Yah ummm... I’m not sure I can wait a week for each new Part!! 😂 Please send more. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@Henriette-van-der-Ende]

Thank you. This is so good. Love to see Steven and Melissa talk to the Jew and Greek channel.

[@007Tinkins]

This is one of the best explanations I’ve heard on the subject. I am wondering if Dr. Caroline Leaf would fall under this category of metaphysical beliefs? Thank you for all your vitally important ministries. I thank God for all 4 of you and I pray for you.

[@lindag1762]

Leslie Phillips I’ve wondered that’s also. I had her book and threw it away, I don’t know if I needed to or not.

[@tonic.9234]

I want them to cover this same topic. I don't think she's quite the same, though. She doesn't claim her methods to be Biblically-derived, but instead scientifically-derived and applied Biblically. Her methods are hardly metaphysical; they're psychological. Nonetheless, I would like to hear their thoughts!

[@007Tinkins]

Janice - I recently discovered this website: debunkingdrleaf.com. Also Dr. C. Edward Pitt has some information about her called The Secret Teaching of Dr. Carolyn Leaf and it’s commonality with “The Secret”. There is an article written on Christianity Today by Mel Lawrenz called “The Secret Exposed”. Also Chris Rosebrough has a You Tube channel called Fighting For the Faith. I’m not endorsing everything that any of these people say, because I haven’t read everything they’ve written, but when it comes to Dr. Leaf I would agree with them.

[@007Tinkins]

Toni - I recently discovered this website: debunkingdrleaf.com. Also Dr. C. Edward Pitt has some information about her called The Secret Teaching of Dr. Carolyn Leaf and it’s commonality with “The Secret”. There is an article written on Christianity Today by Mel Lawrenz called “The Secret Exposed”. Also Chris Rosebrough has a You Tube channel called Fighting For the Faith. I’m not endorsing everything that any of these people say, because I haven’t read everything they’ve written, but when it comes to Dr. Leaf I would agree with them

[@007Tinkins]

Janice - I am familiar with the Christian Answers For the New Age website. (I didn’t know she had a FB page) but her website is a wealth of information! Excellent resource.

[@beanbag345]

Love you guys, keep up the good work!! Parts one and two were both great

[@denisesmith3544]

I very much would like to hear a discussion of the W/F doctrine known as The Authority of the Believer. They all teach this.

[@lauriejackson1491]

Love this ministry! ✝️🥰

[@freddhernanadez2230]

Check this channel as well " Servis Christi"

[@jessie.juxtapose]

Can you give links to the Todd white statements you referenced? It would be much appreciated thank you. Also, thank you, these topics really needed an in-depth discussion, it's great that you really unpack it and the difference between faith and trust in God versus faith and words as a force or thingness. Seems to me there is a lot truth in their doctrines, enough to sell it to someone not thinking about it and the foundations of the doctrines are off and not God/Jesus Christ centered. Not done watching, but will thanks again!

[@brenmanock]

Great discussion guys.

[@woofbark4475]

Great point about denying the Father the right to father us...Circa 50mins. Also the discussion on 7 conditions for answered prayer was also a pertinent discussion.

[@mulletsandmustaches8656]

This reminds me of asking a new thought person if a child was molested was it there fault then? She answered yes. This is unbelievably damaging to anyone that goes through anything awful in their life Its like the blame is on them

[@tarraholifield4998]

I am following and agreeing and I genuinely want to know... What about the verse that says " if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you could say to this mountain move and it would move" something like that?

[@Joel-bg3cf]

Please try to also get Costi Hinn on. I believe he pastors in Gilbert

[@aribbonatatime]

Very informative. Much needed. Thank you

[@stephanieblenkhorn5218]

Great teaching/ conversing, why is there only literally a handful of us that believe and take The Bible as what it says 😓♥️🙏🕊

[@johncline3033]

The Secret works. For 2 years I believed I was getting a big raise. One day my boss comes up with a big smile and gave me a longer ladder!!!!

[@jesuschristbiblebiblestudy]

Making Wise Decisions 1: Clear Your Heart of Any Known Sin. (Ask the Lord to reveal it. How to deal with sin - Repent) 2: Bring Your Desires Into A Position Of Neutrality. 3: Be alert to pressure. (External pressure - pressure from friends; internal pressure - fears) 4: Persist in Prayer. (Pray without ceasing) 5: Rest in God's Promises 6: Wait for God's Peace (God and I are tigether, so I can trust His decision) Prayer "Lord Jesus Christ, I accept this situation as coming from you. In faith and trust, I place myself under your loving authority, and draw from you, the strength I need to endure with gratitude." AMEN

[@MosesBarr]

I hear what you guys are saying. I also believe there are errors in today's teaching and leading people astray...But do you guys think what we say (especially speaking God's Word over ourselves; having faith in God alone) matter in our circumstances? For example in Jeremiah 17:14 it says "Heal me Lord, and I will be healed." I know God said that in His Word and therefore I pray and believe God. So in my prayers I say "Lord, according to Your Word, You said... Therefore I believe that what He said I can have. Now I don't believe it's up to me as a child of God to control when the actual manifestation of that healing to take place. But I do believe it's right to have faith in God and what HE says in His Word. Thoughts?

[@freddhernanadez2230]

And what did HE say you can have?

[@MosesBarr]

@@freddhernanadez2230 Healing

[@freddhernanadez2230]

@@MosesBarr Correct. It is WRITTEN. And HE'S talking mostly SPIRITUAL healing here.

[@MosesBarr]

@@freddhernanadez2230 Whether it's spiritual or physical, (or both) it's right to pray and have faith in His Word. That was the point I was trying to make. Since His Word doenst return void wouldn't it make sense to speak and pray His word over yourself or situations in life? Jesus rebuked fevers. If I have a fever shouldn't I pray and do the same? Not saying I should go out Everytime there is a storm outside and tell it to stop raining like some other people tend to do.

[@freddhernanadez2230]

@@MosesBarrYes. God bless you and keep your eyes solely focused on Christ.

[@thejustshalllive7625]

Same anointing that saves mankind, is the same anointing that heals, prospers, blesses, and sanctifies you. Etc

[@stephanieblenkhorn5218]

Like what you guys are talking about 🙏♥️🕊

[@carissamitchell8071]

Love ❤️ this

[@Alyea33]

Another way the positive confession sneaks in is by this type of thought: if you are not positively confessing or (affirming as new age would say) you are literally opening the door for enemy to come in - and then create havoc in your life- wait Wuuuuuuuut?

[@thetrintarianmessianicyahw589]

42:25 I wanna see the Tape! I wanna see Kenneth Copeland say that God is a 6 foot 4 dude who loves on another planet! I you post a link I'll share it with the world for you!

[@a.j.j5900]

🔥🔥🔥... the good kind

[@philiptecson6354]

more power guys!

[@jamicottin1429]

Spot on with that statement: “What does it profit to be a Diest who believes that your prayers and words are ultimately answered by mechanisms and not God himself”

[@raybritzel1719]

Regarding prayer - the truth is simple: pray in His name according to His will and you will get everything you pray for. Therefore, when you are not getting whatever you ask for, you can know that you are not in His name, or, not according to His will. Prayer changes us, and our will. Not God, or His will.

[@joytrujillo9447]

wow...spot on...thank you

[@bobbyjohnson4243]

What do you mean Hebrews 11:1 kjv is a mistranslation. That’s a rather big thing to skip over, can you explain this more? What evidence is there for that statement? Thx.

[@jacobraynelson7327]

PLEASE ADDRESS THE WORK OF DR. Masaro Emoto. (ICE CRYSTAS) THIS WAS A PILLAR OF MY FAITH IN THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT AND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS AS I SEEK TO RECONCILE THIS AND SHARE THE GOSPEL WITH CURRENT NEW AGERS. also how plants’ growth supposedly are effected by words or music

[@edwardfrazier4320]

People people good job ☺️

[@annipanna]

Thank you sooo much for this episod! I have a question. When you analised what faith is and that it's not a forse, it's a gift from God for salvation, the stories came to my mind when Jesus told his disciples how weak their faith was. Or when He healed someone and told him/her your faith has healed you.. What is faith in these situations?

[@davidrussell631]

How right you are to bring up the instances where the Lord commended people for their faith or admonished or rebuked for their lack thereof. I’ve never heard the first critic of WOF preachers say that God isn’t pleased and honored by our faith, or even that God may not answer a prayer because of unbelief. We can’t throw out the part faith plays in prayer. The point, though, is that WOF theology, much of which I was brought up in and around, is actually a focus on something besides actual, biblical faith in God. Contrary to what some say in trying to correct it, it’s NOT “faith in faith”. Faith is NOT a certainty of belief in a particular outcome. It’s a trust in God and His perfect will. Mark tells of a man who brought his son with an unclean spirit to Jesus. Jesus admonished him for his halfhearted faith when he said, “But if you can do anything...“ But the man’s response back to Jesus was “I believe. Help my unbelief.” After Jesus cast the demon out his disciples asked Him why they couldn’t. Jesus didn’t say they didn’t have enough faith. He said, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” Lastly, faith for the prayer of healing is the same as saving faith in that both gifts of faith are just that, gifts of God.

[@IAmCruz100]

I need to read to read the book EW Kenyon mentions having a divine visitation of Christ? Someone help me with the book title, and chapter so i can read for myself and do my own research. Thanks 👍

[@macauleylane4811]

I'm going to second the question about Caroline Leaf- would she ever fall into this category?

[@mrdinx]

I never knew of the connection between Jim Jones and William Branham. Their relationship is well documented and shows a birds-of-a-feather type group.

[@Joel-bg3cf]

Is there a way we can get all these quotes together online?

[@manuscus6289]

It’s Charles Capps I’ve read that book so much it’s pitiful I’m coming out of this doctrine ask I type it’s a slick doctrine of deception for sure. Good job guys and gal

[@loucjenk]

What about how Kenneth Hagen's healing of polio when he was a teenager?

[@notinadequate2119]

I don’t know if you guys reply to comments, but I have a question. I never heard it called Word of Faith, but I am familiar with these teachings, as my family was briefly sucked into the Copeland/Hagan-esque teachings when I was a teenager. These teachings are so popular and irresistible because they seem to WORK. My question is - the forces that manipulate the world so the things people Name and Claim come true are not of God. However, they must be of another spiritual force. Is it your belief that this other force is of s@tan? Or is there a third spiritual force, a human source (I’ve heard this described as “soul power”). Even though I know that Name it and Claim it is evil witchcraft, I am still careful about the things I say, because it does seem as though spoken words do have some level of power. Maybe you guys could talk about this at some point? Also, love all the Walter Williams references. I grew up listening to him, I can still hear his voice in my head.

[@liquidfirepainting1169]

Let's look at how even Job had such great faith but yet had his entire life wrecked.

[@or0chimau]

Aoplogia Church, one question, what is the difference in person between Jesus and God? if possible Jeff of a pastor could answer the question it would be appreciated.

[@christopherbarr3385]

The difference essentially is just their form Jesus came as a human, the times when the Bible references the Angel of God w/o the angel declaring its name then that is representative of the person of Jesus. Also as we know Jesus assumed the nature of Humanity. While when you look at the Father the times he’s showed up were through natural objects such as bushes or clouds. But as can be seen in the Gospel there were many times when Jesus says if you know me then you know the father bc they can’t do anything on their own since they are one. So the difference basically isn’t necessarily going to help you faith wise. But those are the theological difference as far as I know.

[@awequayzngs1780]

GOD is not known by theology, human's ideas or explanations, discussion, wisdom , science, knowledge but by revelation, by faith, just believing and living the word of GOD !.

[@silviyapancheva]

I wonder...If I say “I am a refrigerator!” and believe it, what is the chance that I turn into one by the force of the law of attraction? If the law of attraction doesn’t have a mind and have the power to create things then I should be able to change form? If the law of attraction has a mind then why it does not obey me provided the fact that I truly believe I’m a refrigerator?

[@stephensmith6734]

Law of attraction - does that mean when I say something negative and a Christian says "don't speak that over yourself", does that mean they are being influenced by Word of Faith and are wrong??

[@christophersmith7412]

that sounds like a perfect example of word of faith influence yes.

[@audyharrison]

Absolutely, yes. I have heard it for many years.

[@Bymyname]

It's very interesting, but it will be more interesting with people with different views.

[@stephanieblenkhorn5218]

Also sounds like John G Lake miniseries .

[@caleb.lindsay]

the one thing i wish they could re-touch on is that "faith" is not the gift of God, "grace" is the gift from God. we are justified BY grace THROUGH faith. the effectual "gift" is grace, which is why it is the "by" rather than the "through". we receive the gift of grace through Jesus sacrifice, and the opportunity to believe (ie: put faith in that gift) is the gift. I think the way they are using faith in this context is the effectual position of Calvinism that sort of drives you into TULIP theology.

[@jillwhiting8839]

I have watched Kenneth Copland and always sensed something is not right with what he says. I do not watch him anymore.

[@loispappademos4369]

In Hebrew, the word faith means trust, basically. It is not a force,

[@shawnlauderdale6502]

Life and death are in the power of the tongue, if those that are not against us are for us why do you judge them?

[@emanuelboateng4585]

Who was the preacher at the beginning ?

[@snopure]

Dr. Walter Martin. His main area of ministry was the cults. There are several of his messages on KZbin covering a wide range of topics. He also wrote at least two books, Rise of the Cults, and Kingdom of the Cults. He was also one of the bold preachers who got on TBN and said some stuff they didn't like regarding correction and Word of Faith, I believe.

[@timsharpe6652]

The late Dr Walter Martin

[@ajmaynard7986]

This is great! Love it! So, I completely understand what is being said about the law of attraction....totally DON'T believe in that. How would you tell a loved one who claims to be Christian, but DOES believe in it under the guise of "the power of life and death are in the tongue" as quoted from the Bible...?

[@solideogloria6569]

I'm struggling with this currently as well. A good friend of mine had basically taught me this exact thing, except I didn't realize it aligned more with new age. All of this is throwing me for a loop, because I have for the past few years been in the mindset of declaring and decreeing certain things, mainly to do with how I'm feeling physically and emotionally, and then believing it to be my reality. I also mistakenly thought that "life and death is in the power of the tongue", went along with this type of thinking, but now am more inclined to think that it refers to how we speak of others. I will say that I believe the Lord wants us to "take captive our thoughts" and thinking negativity about ourselves or our lives can suck the joy and peace from us. So, I would explain to them how God wants us to take captive our thoughts, but if we aren't feeling well or we lost our job, it's ok to admit these things. I believe admitting something as reality vs. wallowing in self-pity for example are two different things. My favorite verse is Isaiah 26:3, "You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you". If we focus on Jesus, He is the calm in our storms. We can go to him for restoration when we feel weak, He is strong. I believe this lifts the burden off of ourselves to declare and decree and think the right things all the time, in order for us to have a different reality. I'm thankful for videos like this and God given discernment. I do feel I was led astray in thinking this way and am praying God would lead me in His truth. Hope this helps!

[@ruthd.8655]

Franchis Chan is worth listening to

[@andreduncan4224]

All the blessings of Abraham are mine through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Lord is Shepherd I shall not want. I will be like a tree planted by the waters. God will cause rivers to flow in the deserts. Give us ( Yahweh) our daily bread. Oh God will you bless me, and expand my territory, keep my feet from evil. Give me prosperous fields, and beautiful tracks of lands. Look in the word of God , He wants to bless us. I have not seen God's children foresaken, nor their off spring begging bread. It is God who gives us the ability to generate wealth and establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

[@OXSweetnspicyXO]

With the Word of faith movement, they would argue (also, and probably mainly) during this time that it is the enemy doing this work. People in the Word of Faith movement don't have an understanding of God's sovereignty. They think that anything bad that happens is of the devil. There is the teaching that not everything that happens is God's Will. John G Lake ministries, ran by Curry Blake, teaches about this. Gregory A Boyd wrote a whole book touching this aspect called "God At War". Todd White and Bill Johnson also teach this. Hence why someone is sick , it is their duty to heal them ( as Christ like beings). And *they teach that believers shouldn't be sick or ever get sick. (* Todd White, Billy J, Curry Blake, and John G Lake. Curry and John also look down upon anyone seeking medical help. John G Lake so much though to the point of saying it is like slapping Jesus in the face if you take medication.)

[@silviyapancheva]

The “rubbish” Paul mentions is translated lightly. The Greek word is skubalon and literally translates as “shit”

[@tarraholifield4998]

Yeah..."take no thought.. Saying..." Meaning don't worry not necessarily this is how you take a thought

[@Saintmack]

Romans 4:17, Proverbs 18:21, Matthew 21:22, Mark 16:17-18, Mark 11:24, the Bible frequently speaks about calling things into existence. Essentially that is what a prophetic word is. But you guys mentioned God “has” to heal, I find it obvious He does not. We are not deserving of anything except because of the death of His Son, we are in right relationship. In right relationship your spouse does not have to do anything for you, but they take care of you because they love you. We are not entitled to the love and provision of God, but He blesses us with an inheritance. I am against the new age, but this principal is clearly Biblical, so I must say let God be true and every man a liar. That does not mean however, it’s okay to go around accusing men of sin if they are sick. We should lay hands on them and pray for them, not accuse them. That is what is wicked, not the Biblical truth.

[@Harvest991]

Love your comment! Life is what it is! But, repent and move on in faith, action, leaving it in our Lord's hands.

[@ianyimiah]

'This principle is clearly Biblical' - Please what do you mean by 'this principle'? And I also went through the verses you provided. I don't see where the Bible instructs believers to call things into existence such that their words literally manifest these things into being. Also, please what do you mean by 'calling things into existence'? Is it like when God called this universe into existence ex-nihilo? Do our words cause these things to form? Lastly, what do you say about those who would have us believe that God needed faith to create the universe?

[@seanvann1747]

God does not "have to heal" anybody why.. cause He already has. 1 Peter 2:24 King James Bible Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Be blessed all!

[@mikehopper2838]

Romans 4:17 is speaking of God calling things into existence that do not existence, not man. Humbly - We have got to represent to word honestly.

[@seanvann1747]

@@mikehopper2838 My brother :) Would you say that we are called to be the body of Christ on the earth? If so would you consider the mouth a part of the body.

[@jeffsatterthwaite3167]

Isnt the end result of this belief coming to power in society to demand everyone think and speak the same things?

[@FreedomInTruth777]

In miraculous healings, if you are not healed it's the fault of the healers lack of faith not the person being healed. I've seen angry hardcore zealous Atheists healed and they repented of Atheism and became Christians there after, for they could not argue logically nor scientifically with what just happened to them physically and spiritually. You can not argue with a healing, you can only harden your heart against the healer or submit to the healer who is the God Head.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

can you show me in scripture anywhere it was not God's will to heal?

[@MissChloeRSA]

1. At the pool of Bethesda, Jesus only healed one man. This man didn't even know who Jesus was. He healed him out of Compassion and the man's faith was not required. 2. Jesus did not go into specific communities and he did not heal or preach there. This shows that God is sovereign in where and with whom he shows compassion. 3. Majority of WOF preachers died from heart attacks, illness and recently some from covid. How can they claim to have so much faith all their life, even raising people from the dead, yet could not have enough faith to get healed. Clearly God heals by his own accord, in our trust in him we can pray for him to heal us but we must be humble enough to accept his judgment on that.n

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@MissChloeRSA no Jesus recognized he had faith . Jesus went into his own hometown and couldn’t do many mighty miracles because of the lack of faith. Faith is commerce through God interacts with his creation. Jesus said, where is YOUR faith? THE WHOLE SCRIPTURE FOCUSES ON FAITH. HEBREWS CHAPTER 11 IS ALL ABOUT FAITH. AND WITHOUT FAITH, IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD.. and you will find nowhere in scripture Jesus tells anyone it is not his will to heal them.

[@LEGnewTube]

Ya Kennith definitely looks demon possessed... Not literally, but looks like someone who is. I would be afraid to have him as my grandpa 😜

[@timsharpe6652]

Plot twist .. He might be like erm literally possessed

[@IBIoodGNR]

Or hes a demon disguised as human. There are tons of them here now a days infiltrating every aspect of human life including spirituality and the church

[@jaquirox6579]

You guys should do a WoF cultish episode that actually has an ex WoF-er. Like you do with other cults.

[@RapDariusMonroe]

nice

[@pastorjeffgraves]

Great conversation and well meaning. Unfortunately this conversation has little understanding of the theology of the Christian movement it is criticizing. For example, WOF theology generally would not think that we are experiencing a pandemic because of "something we did" or because of "negative confession". They believe just like ortodox Christianity in that we live in a fallen world and bad things happen. It seems that there is more effort in seeing what is wrong with people who differ theologically than you than trying to understand and hearing their teaching in context. I am very familiar with WOF theology, and hear the broad strokes you are using and cringe... Not to mention that WOF is a very broad term in it self in that many are labeled that though they do not belong to the WOF denomination. It would be very helpful to have a WOF teacher and have a conversation with them. Reformed Theology/Calvinists seems to have a bad reputation of calling everyone heritics while assuming theological purity. These people love Jesus, His Word, His Church and reaching the lost. Asking them to explain their views based on scripture would be very beneficial. Though you may not agree totally with them, you may at least have an understanding you don't seem to have right now by using extremes to confirm your bias. With that said, I will say that I do enjoy the dialogue, and tune in from time to time to see what you guys have to say. God bless 🙏

[@emms443]

Hi Jeff, Just know that money is the bottom line for many WOF teachers. I think sometimes they can be given a little too much credit.

[@audyharrison]

Having lived in WOF most of my life, I can say that yes they are telling the truth. There are different levels of this, some more extreme than others.

[@audyharrison]

I recommend listening to Costi Hinn. He grew up in it his whole life.

[@lostinthesauce8345]

Man I am in constant mental torment of worrying about humanity. Billions of humans, much of my family and friends included, simply do not believe in god or Jesus. I can’t even hope they are going to heaven because even the Bible says there will be many people in hell. I feel like I’m just watching them all die and my words mean nothing. Is there any chance god will have mercy on these souls? Maybe just keep them in hell for a million years, then erase their souls from existence? It just seems so awful to picture my mother, grandma, sister and stepfather in hell burning for eternity. It’s been eating at my mind and soul. Will I not even care about them when I’m in heaven? Will god wipe all caring about these people when I’m in heaven?

[@mariemilycraig]

Hi! I don't know if you're still worried by these thoughts or if in the meantime you have found clarity and comfort. This is what helps me: an understanding of God's character, coming from reading and knowing the Bible as a whole - that God loves these people, even my relatives who died without believing in Jesus, more than I could ever do. He loves them more than we can imagine. Also, He is just. He never punishes unjustly or disproportionately. He has perfect knowledge and understanding about everything, including all the evil that people have done, plus all the motives of their hearts, plus all the hurt that they had suffered, and all the mitigating circumstances. So I can trust him to do what is most loving and just by everyone, and I can entrust these people to his hand, knowing that he will perfectly meet both mercy and justice in his action. This brings me a lot of peace and comfort and I hope it will do the same for you. The more I get to know God by reading and understanding the Bible and by doing my best to obey him, the more I trust him and the more peace I have.

[@albertapodaca]

The lord IS OR HEALER NO? Power of life and death is in your tongue? Choose life. Philippians 4 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-meditate on these things.

[@meg_prescott]

This is just like Mormonism and JWs too. Every false religion, teacher, practice, or new age thought is based on the original lie from the garden. You can be a god. You are the master of your destiny. It's almost laughable in its simplicity.

[@michaelschairer1675]

I dont agree with prosperity. I do believe in divine healing tho isaiah 53

[@shizlegizmgar]

Don’t these claims from the “WOF” movement sound a lot like the “miserable counselors” who were with Job? Just a thought.. Anyone else notice this? Am I off?

[@hadassah7752]

the same power that raised Jesus from the dead is now in the believer by HIs Holy Spirit and is what empowers us to live the life pleasing to God. When we touch and heal, its not by our own power or merit, but that of Jesus and His finished work on the cross of Jesus. We speak healing to our bodies not by our faith but by The Faith of Jesus! We have the power all becuz of Jesus to do greater things here on earth than Jesus did. Jesus couldnt do some things becuz of unbelief of the people. We have the Faith of Jesus which is a gift, however sometimes we can let unbelief get in the way. Renewing our minds to the truth of Gods word {and a little fasting] helps us get rid of that unbelief. As long as we always remember that we are only vessels for use by the Holy Spirit and not for self glorifying. I think you guys couldve brought many of these teaching our without having to mention names. call the pastors up if you want to do them any good. I think the heart intentions here were wrong. You can be correct in theology but bad in motives. The tone of that video actually kind of turn me off. it seemed more like an attack than a teaching. Also, when you mentioned about a pastor and the word he used "produced" and you corrected it... it seemed like you were really picking flaws just to show that youre theologically correct. And really Todd white also? have any of you gone out and heal people by the faith of Jesus... or wud you not believ becuz you saw the same in new age? Please. whatever yall do dont get confused. #Stay strong #unveil Jesus#