What is the Word of Faith Movement?

[@pleasedontman]

My wife and I left our WOF church today. Not kidding.

[@krissyjo2577]

That is sooo cool 😁JESUS is sooo Awesome 🥰

[@jesusweisbrod9041]

Praise God brother, welcome home.

[@user-mv3pc8zd7g]

Welcome back! :)

[@markkeenan1]

ROI. I have loved ones who are still in wof. If they refuse to come out is it because they r lost? Were u saved recently or were u simply decieved by false teachers and did not know any better?

[@judesocojr1911]

Its sad youll left WOF and now joined WOFlesh or WOLaw. Please read Galatians 3

[@letitbee7248]

I was raised in the WOF movement in the 1970's. My mother watched Kathryn Kuhlman, Vicki Jamison, Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton, etc. on TV all the time. Even as a 7 year old child, these people didn't sit right with me. My mother thought I was possessed by demons because I didn't like these preachers and I told her so. I could go on and on about the dangers of this movement. I didn't want any part of the God they were teaching so I was lured into New Age teachings for many years. Praise God, He delivered me from New Age in August 2020. Thank you for explaining the dangers of WOF. God is working mightily through all of you!

[@zappchristianjohnconanmora4366]

I had a tones of magazine from kenneth copeland, i once was believe him for 8 years but 2 years ago by God grace my eyes opened... i am so thankful to God ....

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

What were your eyes opened up to?

[@Kintizen]

Thank you for this. I'm in tears watching this. I hope y'all see this and pray for the Brazilian Church, the majority of the Church is so deep into this.

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

Melissa your doing so much in Apologetics. Growing up with you I never would have thought I’d see you being used by God in such a great way.

[@timsharpe6652]

I like that she is gentle and humble too . I'm in her channel too . Actually on all 3 of "these " 😃

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

Follow Christ not Steve and Melissa, read the Bible for yourself.🥰 Ephesians 1:1-2 “Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children, and walk in love, just as Christ loved usa and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God”

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

@Lisa Love Ministries I’m just very blessed to see Melissa doing God’s will. I led her to Christ as teenagers.

[@Kiolashei]

This was so spot on. I went from church to church learning this stuff and didn't realize that this was a false gospel. I just got out of this a few months ago and now I'm on a journey to re-learning what I learned. It's been tough and confusing. I know God's word it true and I'm determined to learn more about Him. My heart goes out to anyone who is caught up in this. I pray that anyone who is in here will see the light and get out.

[@chantalszemenyei1682]

It is confusing! Confusion never comes from God and im also learning the hard way! Seek first the kingdom of God and the truth will spill out of us as a result❤️

[@Kiolashei]

@@chantalszemenyei1682 totally! Well said

[@veesheldrick474]

This is similar to my experience. I have found solid teaching through ligonair and John macarthur and I am reading the bible more and more. There is a part of me that feels I've lost some of my joy but I believe depth is more important right now

[@syracuse_]

This was really Insightful. As somebody who grew up in a pentecostal household and has been searching out the Lord and the truth the past couple of years, its been hard for me to come to terms with the fact that a lot of what was familiar to me might have come from somewhere that wasn't Godly.

[@lesliewilliford2179]

So interesting to watch this a year later. God is good

[@GM-7777]

I used to go to a church that was really big into name it and claim it. This is a great conversation. Thank you for clarity

[@susanzumback7711]

This is awesome many encores please!my favorites melisssa and Steven!now we just need Doreen!🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻❤️💕

[@shaneking132]

Yes! They are an awesome trio!

[@joearch5588]

Steven you’re a cool dude! I’m happy to see you’ve become kind of a regular with Apologia studios 👍

[@janet183]

These are demonic teachings .....and 1 John 2:19 -20They went out from us but they were not REALLY of us,for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.But you have an anointing from the Holy One,and you all know .We know the truth and I’m these false teachers are very dangerous and the scripture tells us not to be ignorant of the devils devices and I’m glad you guys are speaking up for they are attacking the Gospel and they are teaching a different gospel..red flag ! And Paul tells us Gal1:6-9 ....

[@marklucachev6695]

I'm going to make one critique here, because I think it's a major problem in a lot of reformed Christianity: Yes, we are all sinners, and imperfect. Yes, even after we receive the Holy Spirit and are in right relationship with Jesus, we can still sin, and make Him sad or angry. Yup. However. We have also been forgiven of our sins, and given a new identity in Christ (not that we ARE Christ, but we are adopted as children into His family, as His bride, and He gives us a new identity in that way). With our sins (past, present, and future) forgiven, and in relationship with Jesus, and a new identity where Jesus' blood covers our corruption (until we are given new bodies and names at the resurrection), there is no reason to continue going around mourning and berating yourself, 'wailing' as you said. The old has gone the new has come, guys. Rejoice! Does it suck when we still sin and mess up? Yes. Should we be repentant for that? Of course. But the Bible says He has cast our sins far from him. I find it so incredibly holier-than-God when Christians continue to moan and whine and hate themselves sitting in the mud of regret and guilt. Jesus bore that for us, so that we do not have to anymore. If you don't get that, you're missing half the point of the Gospel guys. Jesus DOES want genuine repentance, yes. But no, He doesn't want you to hate yourself or see yourself as some terrible corrupt insignificant bug etc etc. You aren't. You are a special creation, created in His image (not AS His image), known before conception, fearfully and wonderfully made and, now, in Christ, covered by His blood and washed anew. Precious in His sight, sons and daughters of His, and adopted into His household. We can love ourselves BECAUSE He loves us (and not without that). And before someone brings up the 'die to yourself' verse... the word there is 'self primacy', not 'self identity'. Die to your need to be lord of your life and your desire to control your existence and let Jesus be Lord. Not 'have no worth and hate yourself'. Romans 8:13-17, 23; Galatians 3:26-29, 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:4-5

[@considertheravens2024]

Amen! Well said. Hyper Calvinism is just as bad and cultist as Word of Faith. We need the Holy Spirit to give us balance.

[@jesusislord9080]

Is that steven bancarz? He's awesome and knows his stuff, this will be a good one.

[@bonitagrindle8313]

Recorded two years ago and even more applicable today. Thank you.

[@jaquirox6579]

THANK YOU FINALLY!!! I watch all 3 of your guys’ channels, and I’m so so grateful for this content! I would love for you to dig into all aspects of this more. Thank you again.

[@lindahudson3966]

Thank you for all you do to expose these teachers that are not only in error, but some have moved into heresy. It breaks my heart as we ourselves have had to come out of some very cultish movements and organizations also. Prayers and blessings that you bring TRUTH.🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@TheValentineShow]

That's why the main thing as christian's that we should be doing is reading the bible to see what God wants to tell us.

[@cindyblack1746]

thank you, my eyes are being opened into these cults that are circleing all around me. But when I heard they though that Jesus was not God my spirit stood up and said that is enough..i have been directed to you by God to hear the truth on the cults and my mind is blown..thank you

[@autumnslife6578]

Fantastic podcast. I love listening to you all. The sad truth here is that so many “new” Christians get swept away with the word of faith/prosperity gospel. I’ve seen this happen and it happened to me, thankfully only for a season. That’s why I drown myself in the Word for myself and listen to people like you because I continue to learn so much and feel armed against allowing false doctrine into my life. I would hate to be deceived and in turn deceive someone else. This is a real problem in the a Christian body. One thing I admire about you all is that you explain the false doctrine and teachers but in a loving way. I think it’s incredibly important that we pray for the false teachers ( not taking away from calling them out) but continue to pray that they repent and the wall of deception would fall from their eyes. Additionally, praying for the people following them. Keep up the good work!

[@melissalatorre30]

You are correct it is a real problem in the Christian body. I became born again in Dec 2020 and was a New Ager, it was all I knew and grew up in that and then I saw the same New Age thought and behaviours and occultist beliefs in people I met who called themselves Christian but the Holy Spirit indwelling inside me was telling me the truth to guide me and show me that this was a real issue and to be careful not to be deceived and also show me that there are a lot of false converts / people who were not genuinely saved but who believe they are simply because of the false teachers deceiving them

[@joytrujillo9447]

Man if i could have had someone teach me this before i got mixed up in churches...no one ever told me there was a concordence and how to see context. This is a Great roundtable. Thank you.

[@---wu3qj]

Who else wanted to be like God? The first one who tried this got kicked out of heaven!

[@patriciaking7892]

😂😂 True.

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

We’re to be Imitators of Christ. It’s important to teach the truth of what false Teachers have taken out of context. Otherwise your almost worst than the false teachers. Ephesians 1:1-2 “Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children, and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God”

[@badassociation4946]

I second the question about Dr. Brown. Could you invite Dr. Michael Brown onto the show? Ask him about his endorsement of people like Todd White and Benny Hinn.

[@TheJpep2424]

He's been asked dozens of times. He endorses them and refuses to call them false teachers.

[@kats7218]

I appreciate the revelation of the origin of some of the thought. Beware of throwing out Jesus’ words with this - we are to do greater things but not because we are little gods but by the power of His Holy Spirit - to include healing and raising the dead, in accordance with His will.

[@jacobvance3073]

Love this show, love Melissa. Brilliant work for Christ.

[@crystaldisplay1545]

Wow ! This opened my eyes ...thank you

[@peggyguerrero4865]

Please do more of this type of break down. It's very helpful as I navigate the many, many different ways to look at faith.

[@christopherpen]

Ironically, is it the desire to be just like God that lead into the fall?

[@abashedsanctimony154]

It's a desire to become holier than another and have the desires of your heart fulfilled instead(luciphers trick), to which WOF uses to prove they are holy. But only a few become rich from fake religion yet .. like Steven said, it's your "faith"(desire) that determines your success. Again luciphers trick because it is definitely not in God's will, but man's will

[@timsharpe6652]

Yes Genesis 3

[@lolitawalden9492]

Well I think we should desire to be like him in character and holiness.. Instead we want his authority and power which is pride

[@annipanna]

This was a huge blessing in my life.

[@LimpingforJesus]

I love you guys! You are advancing the true Gospel. Thank you.

[@davidcull9181]

Its amazing that Joel Olsteen will have millions of views and programs like yours that exposes the truth only gets thousand of views....very sad. Thank you all I and many others so much appreciate you defending our faith

[@iviewutoob]

David Cull only a few will take the narrow road

[@kingdomambassador1904]

Indicative of the fallen world. Truth will never be popular in this world. This world is enmity to YHWH.

[@mammabear4334]

Most want their ears tickled and are only interested in what God can do for them, unfortunately

[@harajuka1barbz]

That is because most people have itching ears and cannot really handle the truth.

[@sleepe361]

God Over Everything!!

[@VanyaJohn]

So if we are “little gods”. Gen 3:5 (NASB) "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Wouldn’t have Eve just said, I am already like God?? I really like your guys sobriety and balance. Keep up the good stuff!!

[@lolitawalden9492]

Well we or I should say she was made in his image and I’m sure if she walked with him in the garden there was a difference between her and him because She and Adam were made from the dirt and obviously God is not ...also he was the authority and like us we want to do what we want to do ...so there was a difference Between man and God physically even in the garden and they didn’t know the difference between good and evil and that’s why they were supposed to stay away from the tree and we’re supposed to believe everything God says but her fault was she was standing by the tree and looking at it and that’s when the devil got herso she was already wanting what she couldn’t have. She already thought why can I have this and he convinced her it would be good for her and she believed the devil instead of God hence the fall of man

[@WORTHYLAMB]

Would love to see Dr. Michael Brown on the show to discuss this. If you want to convince people of your view it would be helpful to use more scripture.

[@Animalfarm4481]

We have the Holy Spirit within us, but we are not in control of the Holy Spirit...God is!

[@qimatswift4829]

Put very succinctly, thank you for sharing this thought. I was trying to figure out how to think about this.

[@slynndaly]

It has gotten so hard to find a church that isn’t caught up in this stuff.

[@kingdomambassador1904]

I felt something was off when I heard prayers with ‘declare’ ‘decree’ ‘cast out’ ‘rebuke’ ‘hedge of protection’ the abracadabra use of ‘in Jesus name’ attached, made my inside cringed. I was a babe in the Messiah, fresh in the faith and I continue to be brought the Truth through different forums. I was awoken to Sabbath rest also which ALOT of Christians forsake this Commandment of God (#4 of the 10) #1 God in charge of it all, these events are meant to unfold. Who can pray away what God plans and allows!?! #2 Cancer affliction awoken me to Kingdom and Gods glory not my self will. GIFTS exists in afflictions and challenges. IT IS A TEST from G-d to GAUGE our FAITH level in Him. My FAITH healed me, and believe me I did live the ideal healthy lifestyle as well as you can imagine prior ...yet the cancer kept spreading!! At that time I was relying on New AGE, ocd on nutrition, self actualization therapy, chakra clearing and mantra chants and a bunch of other doctrines were a complete fiasco, doctrines of demons!! #3 There is NO humility in the Word of Faith doctrine, treating G-d like our slave to furnish our selfish petitions?!! GET OUTTA HERE WITH THAT!!! Thank you for this video, very helpful! Update [11:12:20]: AGAIN!!!....AWOKEN without coercion, about the Father’s Appointed Feast Days, they were not abolished EITHER fyi !! In fact they represent a foreshadowing of the eternal life when we dwell FOREVER in the Kingdom of Heaven. The weekly Sabbaths and the Feast Days are ‘dress rehearsal’ also for the time in the New Creation. Sabbath is super good for our total wellbeing, mental and emotional rest. And the Spiritually resting in El Shaddai. Everyone praying all around the world who observe and respect HIS reserved days. What a power !!! ...to fellowship with the Father on a day HE sets apart for us to do that. HalleluYAH!! 🌈💝💕🥰🙏🏽 🎼🎤 Many are living in a fantasy Choosing PREFERENCE over PRINCIPLE!! Condoning SLACKNESS and calling it LOVE!!

[@annak29]

Thank you for this. I have realized that the prayers were like making demands of God out of a kind of entitlement. They believe they are entitled to worldly manifestations of God's favor and power in their lives. I am just now putting these observations into words. Some of their beliefs and practices seem "new age" and mysticism. They act like they have power over God and use His word to make entitled demands. I miss the reverence and sacredness of God and His word by my church of origin and my pastor, whom I now appreciate even more than I could have imagined. 💔💔💔🙏🙏🙏🕊️🕊️🕊️

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

na

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@annak29 yes, I agree that God doesn't give us carte blanche authority to speak things into existence , However, in Ministry, we have been given delegated authority to speak to sickness and disease, and demons, to heal the sick to cast out devils and even raise the dead. There's a lot of variables that exist within the ministry of performing these functions, but that does not exclude that God has given us authority and power to do these things.

[@sleepe361]

I can personally say I've met people who are very intelligent academically and have lots of experience of life and both have something in common without God. They both rely on their knowledge or experiences and are self defeated. It's not how much education or how much experience you have in life. It's if you have the spirit of God truly working in you and know him genuinely. That's something no man can teach or give or produce by yourself. It's truly only by the holy spirit that reveals to people of God things of God in our growth in him that's relevant to him and what's contrary to him for us to be in him. God Over Everything!!

[@laurencastillo9741]

WOF lacks one word: humility. Only Jesus is worthy.

[@theconservativechristian7308]

I just noticed that the abbreviation for Word of Faith is “WOF”. Lol wolf in sheeps clothing? “Woof woof”. 😂

[@laurencastillo9741]

@@aaronjames7266 yup the list goes on.

[@laurencastillo9741]

True ministry should only focus around Jesus as the center.

[@jeffgrissom216]

I graduated from Rhema in 2016 and recently became reformed

[@lindag1762]

WOF, drove me crazy! I have always felt like I could never do anything right. Reading these WOF, books and KZbin, I would try so.... hard not to talk negatively and if something spilled out, I would think that I messed up and would have to start all over. I was a mess!

[@sarahhardesty4142]

It feels like you're either very close to a breakthrough or a breakdown. The latter is always the outcome.

[@grahmedmisten231]

Word of Faith is probably my biggest interest right now.

[@awequayzngs1780]

May GOD bless you all.

[@Eleven-dk4be]

I've been reading the Book Of James and the verse where a person forgets what they look like has been in my mind lately for they are unstable and double minded... I keep replaying it lol

[@woofbark4475]

I remember the first time some guy at church asked me how I was going. I mentioned that I was sick and he recoiled stating that I should never say I'm sick. Fortunately, I didn't become mentally and spiritually convinced by his argument that 'as a man thinks so he is.'

[@sinolukhalo5121]

That verse is often taken out of context and ends up losing its biblical meaning. Your discernment was spot on.

[@nr1785]

Why did he bother asking how you were then!

[@DoctrinalDetox]

This is some really good stuff! Thank you!

[@billbarrie551]

your best life now like John MacArthur said: only if your on your way to hell

[@TheValentineShow]

Lol

[@888drpepper]

John MacArthur, Calvinist and Cessationist..............if these are not heresies, what is? He preaches against the "prosperity preachers", yet he was listed as one of the 10 wealthiest pastors in America.....net worth approaching 20 million.

[@JesusIsComing1111]

Exactly

[@markkeenan1]

I have a question about Dr brown and his partnership with wof teachers. He's sharing stages with them he's not calling them to Repent or bringing rebuke or is he? Am I missing something. I have not heard every side to the story but wretched radio did a video about him saying Dr brown Is them being the same as wof in a way. I can't remember everything but what are we to do with Dr brown. He's clearly in error but I see some KZbin channels continue to partner with him. Help me understand why that's ok? Is he partaking in there sin like this scripture says and if not then how do u understand this scripture? 2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: [11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[@Culture-and]

I'd like to respond as someone who is charismatic but is not Wof. I follow Dr.Brown's ministries pretty close, and he is one of the leading, most well respected pentecostal scholars we have. There's 3 points I'd like to make: 1. Bad teaching is different than hersey or being a "wolf in sheep's clothing". I think it's unfair and not biblical to classify all Wof ministers in that category. A good question to ask is, what are the doctrines that separate orthodox Christians from heretics and/or "wolves"? 2. Dr. Brown wrote a book called "Playing With Holy Fire" which addresses concerns within the charismatic movement and Wof ministers. It's not as if he hasn't addressed these things in his books and on radio. We also don't know that he hasn't addressed these people behind closed doors. 3. It's not his job to go around rebuking people publicly, especially when he doesn't believe they're preaching a false Christ. I understand Todd Friel, Justin Peters, Dr. McArthur and those guys feel they're protecting the flock by constantly putting out warnings, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're right. If people blacklist Dr. Brown because he shares a stage and calls brothers those who are preaching Jesus, they have that right, but I believe they're wrong and and in error. I consider Dr. Brown one of the brightest, most Jesus loving, honest, ministers of our day. You can check out some KZbin videos of his, or read his books to get his beliefs. Don't blindly trust people because they have a bone to pick. -God Bless

[@markkeenan1]

Anthony. Do u think Benny hin Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyer,Todd white ,Jesse duplantise,creflo dollar,TD Jake's ,Beth moore, and there kind are saved? I say they are false teachers and are to be avoided. If you look into what they believe and agree with them then I would say your decieved and in danger of Hell. Say this all with love and concern. I don't have a bone to pick I'm just trying to be faithful to the Lord and his word

[@Culture-and]

@@markkeenan1 I'll be honest I haven't looked into any of those listed people's teaching. It's difficult anyway to say who is and isn't saved when you don't really know the person. I do recognize the importance of staying away from bad teaching. Can you tell me what you consider to be essential in salvation and orthodoxy? In other words, where do you draw the line between brother and heretic or wolf? I think that's important because otherwise you're just choosing based on your opinion or somebody you respect's opinion rather than God's standard.

[@Culture-and]

@@rullion451 I agree with you actually, which is why I said you could read his books, especially "Playing with Holy Fire". They address concerns in the charismatic movement. Where we seem to disagree is that Heidi Baker is a false prophet. It seems to me that the people who are accusing him are just mad that he isn't doing exactly what they want! They aren't his judge, nor will they debate him publicly. The burden of proof is on you all to show scripture and proof that these people are what the Bible would consider false teachers. I'm open to seeing it. But you are wrong about it being his job to rebuke EVERY false teacher publicly and exactly how other Christians want him to. Show me that biblically. Again, I remind you, he HAS addressed these things so many times.

[@Culture-and]

@@markkeenan1 Here is a link where Dr.Brown responds to the video you're referring to. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqGqf4mrjt96jqs

[@MissChloeRSA]

I grew up WOF but most WOF preachers freaked me out as a child. And i remember being in church, lights dimmed during praise and worship and always wondering, "what if we are wrong? What if we are wrong? What if we are serving the devil and do not know it?". Something about the teachings and mega church culture didn't sit right with me. I felt all of this until about age 12. And then I kind of stopped thinking about it until I went to university and met reformed believers. I still didnt explicitly know WOF was heresy, but I just having a more authentic faith and understanding of scriptures. Its only now 4 years after university thay I realise how blatantly and obviously wrong these doctrines are..

[@considertheravens2024]

Can you do a video on the cult of Calvinism?

[@chrismachin2166]

Charles Spurgeon sermons explain Calvinism.

[@MiguelBaptista1981]

I started watching this with only the audio on, I began do doubt who the heck was on Apologia, and if you had gone out of your good hearts. Was pretty happy to know it was a televangelist and not you guys. Godbless.

[@Potamotrygorgeous]

Thank you for this conversation. I was wondering.. have you ever had a discussion / conversation with a pastor or leader of a word of faith church?

[@-BekahJoy-]

I always listen to your podcasts....you look different from what I anticipated!!

[@lisalmenard3828]

I’ve been in baptist, non-denom, word of faith, prophetic, and NAR churches over the years since 1989, after becoming born again in 1988 out from the Catholic Church. But we have left them all about 10 years ago because we didn’t like much of what is going on in the churches in general. We have a very small home group of believers, plus have a few believers we fellowship with online. We have searched our local area and have found no church that isn’t riddled with one heresy or imbalance or another, from one extreme to the other and everything in between. It’s sad, really.

[@joelwiest562]

Lisa, I feel I'm in a similar place to you right now. I was part of a Bible study that I didn't realize was WOF until recently. I will no longer be attending the Bible Study, and I'm praying to find a group of believers free of heresy and teach God's word and his word only.

[@lisalmenard3828]

@@joelwiest562 it’s good to know we aren’t the only ones. I hope and pray you can find at least two or three you can fellowship, study, and pray with. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@JesusIsComing1111]

Read Psalm 73...it’s comforting

[@cicelyryan4402]

Is Carol Tuttle on your list? She calls herself an energy healer, uses tapping while repeating affirmations?

[@genericusername4883]

Mark 11:24 -> no, believing that you already received what you pray for is not unbiblical. John 14:12 -> no, believing that we can do the miracles Jesus did is not generally unbiblical. Romans 10:17 -> no, believing that faith comes from speaking scripture out loud which in turn leads to what Mark 11:23 says, is not unbiblical. And mannny, many more. This is not cherry-picked, read the chapters. Yes, there might be a lot of false notions - like the little Gods thing - and the leading teachers might be wrong and bad, but you can't call the concept of using words (though only scripture, not your own words imo) to receive what God promised, unbiblical. That's just wrong and misleading. And calling the fact that a lot of christians were against the movement a bad fruit is also a bad argument. What about the reformation? My infertile parents took bibleverses and proclaimed them out loud and they got 4 healthy children. I wouldn't call myself a bad fruit.

[@WiseLyonsPowerfulLyo]

Agreed. In addition, revelation, including absolutely perfect revelation, in not unbiblical either. They c0nd3mned revelation in this vid. My gosh, at least 20% of the NT is about revelation or perfect revelation. Heck, G0d himself IS revelation. G0d IS light in which there is no darkness, and "whatsoever makes manifest is light". If these people would simply humble themselves and acknowledge that they don't absolutely know what they're saying and if they behaved and talked as though they could be wr0ng -- then I could sympathize with them. They seem to be pridefully and arrogantly taking such hard stances though.

[@mle9852]

They have reverence for God and that is why they are pointing out heresy and Blasphemy being done in his name. It is scriptural to call out false prophets so you are not deceived. They arent doing it out of egotism.

[@WiseLyonsPowerfulLyo]

@@mle9852 The opposite to the fruits of the Spirit are like weeds, and they definitely spring up in even the most subtle and unexpected of ways. From everything I've seen from cessastionism (i.e. anti-intervention of G0d movement) it appears that crit. icism of G0d's intervention is probably motivated by multiple things -- even contradictory things. These hosts in this video probably are speaking out of fe4r and superstition of possible s!n, also concern for the chvrch's right standing, and also out of their own ego. The true chvrch should humbly be BOTH cautious AND curious about the other-wordly(divine) intervention of G0d on Earth. Until we miraculously attain absolute certainty -- all we have are imperfect opinions. It is fundamentally essential that we admit our foolishness until then.

[@mle9852]

@@WiseLyonsPowerfulLyo Interesting, I think it's important to take into account theosophy, freemasonry and Billie Graham when looking at these big money pastors. I am still learning about cessationism because I was raised with word of faith prosperity pastors. What brought me back to God was studying the occult. When I realized that these elites actually follow theosophy, crowely and freemasonry I returned to God. The luciferians are real and not innocent bystanders. I really like that the Christian apologists approach the Bible intellectually through history and documentation. I feel like I can now approach the bible with a deeper understanding since studying the occult. Satan is very real.

[@WiseLyonsPowerfulLyo]

@@mle9852 G0d's intervention(i.e. miracles) is absolutely fundamental to Cr!stianity. The idea is that G0d ALONE is the true source of resources, meaning and power; and everything else is just a conduit for him to use. These cessationists regularly m0ck and discovrage G0d's work and promote their own. I, too, really like that Chr!st!an apo|ogists approach the Bib|e intellectually, but the idea is to supernaturally transition from opinions to certainty. This transition utterly requires effectual faith, and they run from such faith. H( )nest opinions are g00d temporarily but certainty is forever. Concerning the prosperity gospe|, the prosperity pr3achers have VERY much shown Bib|ically that great prosperity is of G0d. One pr( )b|em though is that they don't teach that there is a season for both great wea|th and also great p( )verty. There is a time for eating and a time for fasting.

[@lukericker8325]

Chrysostom, one of the the most significant Church Fathers, and one of the proponents of the doctrine of the cessation of miracles, actually said that lack of faith can lead to lack of healing. It's not some new concept only attached to the modern WoF movement, and shouldn't be criticized _just_ because it might make someone feel bad.

[@시칼랴]

Can you please give me the quote,, Luke? I'd like to read the greek text as written by Chrysotom. Ευχαριστώ!

[@lukericker8325]

@@시칼랴 The citation is from Andrew Daunton-Fear's book "Healing in the Early Church", page 134. The citation points to Chrysostom's "Hom. Rom. 8.6 -- where he speaks on the use of the name of Jesus" I could not find the direct quotations, maybe you will have more luck. But you don't need to take Chrysostom's word for it. (Or the many other Church fathers who affirmed prayers of faith), It's a consistent theme in both the Old and New Testaments, effectual Faith was present in the entire bible, and was the dominant theology for all of Christian history, until Calvin. Do you think Jesus was just concerned about whether or not his disciples would "feel bad" when he said multiple variants of "You of little Faith" in Mathew 8, and 16, Mark 4, and Luke 8? At the same time, he praises those who have great faith, like the centurion in Matt. 8 and Luke 7. He even says to the woman with the bleeding problem, " Your _faith_ has made you well". These are not the only examples. Jesus did not have the concerns that the people like those in this video have. Jesus goes further than just condemning his own disciples for lack of Faith, but the entire generation. Where he laments their unbelief at the man who was asking for healing for his son, in Matt 17:14-21; Mark 9:17-27; Luke 9:38-43. The attitude that the man has in these verses seems very comparable to the attitude that many Christians today have, passively waiting for God to do things whether He will or not, and having no belief for them. From these, and many more, very clear biblical passages, we know that you can have different amounts of faith. We know that faith is effectual, and we know that faith is in the person of Christ, and his authority, not our own. In Hebrews we learn that faith is "evidence" and "assurance" of the unseen. In a sense, it is an actual spiritual thing that you can have, or lack. This is confirmed in Corinthians, when one of the Holy Spirits gifts is described as "faith", we know this isn't the regular faith talked about in the rest of the bible, because not all faith is directly associated with the Spirit and the other gifts. So this must be an actual spiritual increase in faith, for the purpose of power in ministry, like the other gifts. This says a lot about faith, that it can be supernaturally increased for power in ministry. If faith, was simply the belief that because God is sovereign, he will just do whatever he will do, and we are just passive followers, then an increase, or building of faith, would be completely useless. Believing even harder that God will do whatever he will do and we are passively responding is completely pointless, and not a very good spiritual gift. It does make sense if faith is actually an effectual part of the Christian experience. Remember what is said in Luke 18: 8. "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Of course this doesn't mean faith is a "force", our faith is always in the character of God, not our own, or in circumstances. We have faith based on what we know of God. Being concerned that expecting people to have faith will make them "feel guilty" is clearly biblically unfounded. The point is to _build_ peoples faith, not to stop it before it can even begin. We also know that "faith comes by hearing", so if we want to build peoples faith, the answer is not to tell them not to have it for fear they will be guilty if it doesn't work. The answer is to declare truth over them, to have them _hear_ God's truth, then their faith will be built up. In short "faith can lead to lack of healing" is not only biblical, but is something we should be trying to correct by building faith in others.

[@시칼랴]

@@lukericker8325 Of course. "Then Jesus told them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and don’t doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, ‘May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and it will happen", keeping in mind that "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." As an eastern orthodox I am very attached to the Father's writings so I will check Chrysostom's works further. Thanks!

[@lukericker8325]

@@시칼랴 Ahh, I love the Eastern Orthodox! I myself am a Charismatic Protestant. (but I don't like the term protestant, because of it's negative and divisive connotations, and I believe we can learn a lot from many Christian thinkers, like the Church Fathers.) I've always enjoyed meeting Orthodox people and I appreciate their focus on both God's love and the real power of the Spirit for miracles. Something that has been lost to a lot of Protestants. I admit, much of my reply was based on the assumption that you were a Reformed/Calvanist Protestant, because that's what Apologia studios follows. Obviously I was mistaken, still, hopefully it built some faith anyways! Blessings.

[@시칼랴]

@@lukericker8325 Protestants are missing the obvious. So sad. They are reading the Bible like robots, they don't see what's in front of their eyes. But they sincerely love Jesus so they are brothers for me. I was here for the "new age garbage", part. May God bless you!

[@gracemarie3632]

Wow I am so excited for this!!!

[@nicholaswheeler507]

Put your hand on the screen! Lord jesus! Recieve the anointing of the Lord!

[@snowballtingting]

So great!! Finally have a video like this!! Thanks

[@craigj5403]

Why the "Cultish" t-shirt?

[@SupralapSaiyan]

Look at the video's description-> "Watch this newest episode of Cultish (a production of Apologia Studios) in which we are joined by Steven Bancarz and Melissa Doughtery to discuss this vitally important and relevant issue."

[@Leoji67]

A good point @48:40 Paraphrased- "they say God creates after his own kind, God created us so we are gods." Does that mean animals are gods? God created then too.

[@AfterTheRain_Beth]

He created the animals (and everything else) but not in His own image, so the animals are not gods. Only mankind was created in God's image (after His own kind i.e. the God-kind) hence, we are gods. So, it's not so much the fact that God created us that makes us gods, but that we were created in His image. That's the WoF argument anyway.

[@mariabeckett7470]

Thankyou for this!❤️🥰

[@tayoadejuwon9169]

I never thought thered be a day I'd disagree with apologia studio. There is nothing wrong with having faith, believing God's word no matter what. The Just shall live by faith and not by sensory perception. That is why when we feel sick we remember what the word of God says that but his stripes we were healed. So it's one of two things. It's either we believe what we feel, Or we believe what the word of God says. Believing your feelings is pride. Christ said man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of God's mouth. Your daily living should be faith based.

[@isaacdunn6589]

I love the Subaru Rally Team shirt!

[@billbarrie551]

ya at 44:58 they that this teaching revolves around them when in ( Col 1:18) it's supposed to be about Jesus and to the praise of His glorious "Grace" ( Eph 1:6)

[@dandeliontea7]

Now do the cult of Cessationism.

[@fourierrocket]

I agree. I dont know why so many people escape hyper charismania, and they rebound to the other extreme.

[@StevenAndTraceyJiles]

Great point 👌

[@wwfera00]

Hi! Question: what is the issue with Cessationlism and what scriptures do you reference to say cessationist are wrong. Thanks!

[@dandeliontea7]

Hi @@wwfera00! Great question. My answer would depend on whether you have certain eschatological commitments, some prior assumptions about the role and practice of the spiritual gifts or if you are wanting a fairly straightforward exegetical argument, as there's some translation issues to discuss as well.

[@lukericker8325]

Jehan Martinez A better question would be to ask you what biblical scriptures, or historical precedent is there that cessationism is true? There are no passages that directly call out cessationism because cessationism obviously didn’t exist.

[@pinkroses135]

This stuff has really shoved its way into the charismatic wing. They need a serious audit by their members.

[@thetrintarianmessianicyahw589]

Do you guys have a cultish video on Islam?

[@rocketmanshawn]

Steven can you tell me where that Casey Treat qoute came from(book, sermon, etc)?

[@satinderkaur4453]

Amazing pod

[@RyanDuarteks]

What kind of camera do you guys use?

[@TheValentineShow]

It does look very good.

[@mellbelle81]

Was there a part 2 to this?

[@kennethlewis2477]

Great point about the fruit of the Spirit

[@webuser5950]

do an episode on the finders

[@benlo8076]

how if they said we don't use our own words but what we say is the words of God which written in the scripture ? is it also the word of faith ?

[@SupralapSaiyan]

My daughter walked in on the beginning of this video and asked "what in the weirdness are you watching?"

[@woofbark4475]

Hopefully, you are able to explain some of this stuff to her.

[@SupralapSaiyan]

@@woofbark4475 she could tell right away that's wasn't the kinda preaching we listen to XD

[@lolitawalden9492]

Is she a Christian did you ask her what she meant

[@SupralapSaiyan]

@@lolitawalden9492 see previous comment (the reply to wolf bark)

[@billbarrie551]

They said faith of Heb 11 specifically v3 well what about v13 when it say's they "DIED" in the faith having not "received" the promise

[@lukericker8325]

Bill Barrie Slight correction, it said they died “living by faith”, not “in the faith”. People often say “in the faith” just to mean “in the religion”. That’s not what Paul was talking about, he was talking about living with constant assurance of God’s promises.

[@Candy-sx7os]

Love Thiss ! Thx for exposing these lies !

[@Poetofsound]

I have a discerning spirit and I know the warnings but does not God use them in some way?

[@mightyea]

I think so... because I have seen really broken people find their worth in these type of teachings and pursue their love for God while pursuing their life again

[@ItsMeNanaD71]

I once used to watch ole Kenneth evil Copeland, Joyce Meyers, TD Jakes, all those guys on tv and I'm so thankful and grateful God opened my eyes to their evil ways & took me right off that path! Now my concern is that no pastor will discuss the supernatural changes taking place in the KJV bible, all versions but most are in the kjv. Such as what happened to the wineskins? Who will LIE DOWN with the lion? Are you sure about that? You may want to read Isaiah 11:6 again 😲

[@humblejoy3564]

phew! that's hitting a nerve. just coming out of the legalistic cult of Online ministers that reject church, Bible as the word of God, entertainment of any kind...what a weird world we have 🤔

[@spiderb3367]

I really wish people would stop saying “orthodox Christianity” when referring to classical Protestant doctrine.

[@lukericker8325]

Spider B it does confuse with actual “Orthodox Christianity”, and I’m not sure even calling it “classical Protestant doctrine” is accurate either. Luther came before Reformed theology, and disagreed on some key points.

[@spiderb3367]

Luke Ricker I know right. And I agree, but I think classical Protestantism encompasses the major reformation branches. If you wanted to single out early Lutheran doctrine you could just say Lutheran, or Calvinist etc. I just find the assumption that Calvinism or reformation theology that came on the scene so late is “orthodox” so ridiculous and laughable

[@mmm-cs7tb]

Agreed. There are actually "orthodox churches" and people are getting themselves confused

[@prov25two66]

Cool to see dawrtree on here too

[@edwahjoshua1206]

The Word of faith we preach Romans 10:8-10 The Word of God is saturated with the substance of faith. Faith that doesn't derive from Gods Word isn't the faith if God. If you believe Gods Word God imputes faith to you and says your faith has made you whole. What ever you believe of Gods Word is faith. 😀😇❤😎

[@abcsermons]

1:01:31 right here. The heart of the issue. Fear of God! If I do not hate sin because of my affection for the the Lord, I have not experienced the grace of forgiveness in my soul yet. Those who are truly born again are grieved by sin because it is the antithesis of God. To love sin is to hate God. To live with sin is to live without God. They are inversely proportional to one another. Leonard Ravenhill "Saved? Saved from what?" Saved from Hell only, or saved from sin's domination of the human? Salvation is not only in the afterlife according to the NT. The problem in North American pop Christianity is that we do not know that there are two types of holiness described in the New Testament: imputed righteousness and practical holiness. If you receive the first the second becomes possible. But if you aren't growing in the second you can be sure the first has not happened to you yet. Romans 6-8. Bonhoeffer called the first without the second "cheap grace", a false assurance of right standing with God. This is a scary place to be.

[@kevvy22]

I loved this video. Just wondering about Thai verse though And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

[@emmanuelonwuha3866]

The fruit of the wof movement are all the souls all over the world that have been saved

[@YH7WH3]

🔥(John, 6:54-58) “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”🔥‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@meligarrett9197]

I attend a WOF church though I guess it’s time to leave.Its hard. There are a lot of really nice people there.

[@mattlannimusic]

I’m sure there are but truth is the most important thing! The most loving thing you can do is share the truth with your friends at that church.

[@daddysapp1111]

@@mattlannimusic Yes, share the Gospel of Christ. Amen.

[@MRFITTA]

@@mattlannimusic you assume the people don't know Christ, based on what facts?

[@peggygoad517]

We just left a church that we had gone to for over 10 years because we realized the teachings were heresy. We love the people but the Holy Spirit said leave.

[@JamesSmith-gk8sz]

The only person better than Kenneth Copeland to start with would have been the GIF of Benny Hin "spirit blasting" 50 people back with his jacket.

[@mightyea]

Word of Faith seems like looking at the cup 1/2 full... how one takes ownership over their situation.

[@hassett3393]

Although I agree that the ideology of the WOF movement is inherently flawed and unbiblical, you guys barely gave an in-depth explanation for why. It was the bare minimum. You can't just list WOF quotes without directly comparing each of them to scripture. Asking your audience if they sound trustworthy, isn't enough to prove that they aren't trustworthy. Also, comparing WOF teachings to new age teachings doesn't automatically invalidate WOF teachings. Many different religions have quite a few things in common with Christianity by default. You guys need to get waaaaaay more in-depth when referencing scripture to debunk the WOF movement, or else it sounds like you guys are being theologically conservative just for the sake of being theologically conservative.

[@lukericker8325]

This was a levelheaded reply. I , as someone with Charismatic leanings, would also like to hear things more substantial than a collection of quotes. And good point about the similarities with New Age. The same sort of arguments could be made, and have been, towards the existence and divinity of Jesus, with people using similarity to other beliefs/stories as proof, it is itself not a sturdy argument.

[@Savedbygrace22]

If you want to see this side by side with scripture verses I strongly recommend you got to the Fighting for the faith on UTube and Justin Peters ministries. That’s what they do and I’ve learned a ton by them.👍✝️

[@explodingrubberducky797]

@@Savedbygrace22 Justin Peters is a cessationist and twists scriptures to fit his views of cessationism.

[@serenityz71]

I too was disappointed to see the group fail to provide strong scriptural support for their position. I watched this specifically to see that and it is not there. More specifically, I would like to see how they address scriptures, spoken by Jesus that tells us that we have the authority, in Him and in His will, to speak to things in the natural world and have them change. I'm talking about Mark 11:23-26 and the parallel scripture in Luke 17:6. In the first Jesus demonstrated with a physical example, and then exhorted his disciples to do the same. I would like someone to explain how that is anything other than it appears. Furthermore, it meets the standard of "let every word be established by 2 or 3 witnesses ". I'm still waiting for an explanation which doesn't say that all signs and wonders ceased with the death of the disciples, something which is NOT written in the Word.

[@explodingrubberducky797]

@@serenityz71 you wouldnt find any of those fake man made doctrines of cessationism in the bible. Highly suggest Praying medic's youtube channel

[@briannaramos6677]

Could it just be that the New Age copies the Bible?

[@Kintizen]

New Age is based off Eastern Religions specifically Hinduism and Buddhism. It also has parts of Western Paganism. It's very hostile towards Christianity. For it claims to be spiritual authority, they also claim the Bible is all rules and has no spirituality.

[@briannaramos6677]

@Stellor Lucas yes true, I meant in regards to theology based around Mark 11:24.

[@mightyea]

@@briannaramos6677 good point!!

[@laurencastillo9741]

45:01: And that is blasphemy. We are bot the center of the universe. It's not about US. Its ALL about Jesus and what HE did in the cross for us.

[@pmoran1920]

Thanks for that.Nobody seems to talk about Charles Capps ! He was Kenneth Hagens star speaker at his camps, same with Kenneth Copeland. Actually they were best buddies. Have a look int he Voice of Victory link included here , and hear a quick blurb about Capps. I have a personal interest in Mr Capps, his heretical bonk “ the tongue , a creative force “ was the thorn in my flesh. Unfortunately someone gave her this book , our marriage was never the same. Eventually after not only reading it , this became her “New Faith “. After 5 and a bit years of this rubbish, she left and hasn’t been back. God “told” her to leave me, and never come back . Interesting !

[@catalinalatorre6568]

It will be helpful is you contrasted each error with the biblical truth. I would really love to see each quote compared to the Bible verse that contradicts it. :)

[@christinahernandez9596]

His psalm reference was incorrect. The correct chapter is Psalm 9 verse 20: Arise, O Lord, do not let man prevail; Let the nations be judged before You. Put them in fear, O Lord; Let the nations know that they are but men. Selah.

[@wehipeace]

Loving Jesus is cool!!!! :)

[@marionannbays1349]

Can I please ask a question so y do u say that you are in the image of God so doesn't it mean that u are like him x

[@elijahmountainfire888]

Alrighty, I have a decent question - Who wrote the Prophets, like Ezekiel or Isaiah? Who wrote actual prophecies from GOD. The Word. Eyewitnesses? I understand that eyewitness wrote story of David or Moses. Historical accounts. But did Ezekiel keep the notebook, a diary where he kept GOD's Words? I think question holds water. Think about it. Jesus Rules !