Are Certain Keys Better for Dance Music???

[@Ryanez93]

The best insight "Depends on the audience!" Thank you! 🎉

[@Bittamin]

3:19 I put my whole phone inside my ear at this moment 😂😂😂😂

[@disjean47]

@@Bittamin cmon i got just jbl tune ear pods and i hear this sub

[@jorgedejesustejedavaldez5283]

The key or scale you choose in this theme is also about the creative choice of the artist at the end. A song in F or G could feel more “aggressive” or in your face, but depend on your general idea of the song and what you want to transmit with it. So in my opinion don’t get to crazy about it. If something doesn’t feel good or right for what you want to achieve then change it! Also nice video.

[@Bthelick]

In truth I don't regard specific keys as more aggressive or more chill etc. All keys are equal. So much so that unless someone has perfect pitch from a young age, we can not remember the key of a song anyway and will remember tracks in different key to what they are. People with perfect pitch can hear 'colours' in different keys but the rest of us can't. If you hear a difference in key it's simply because you are hearing it in the context of another key, as in one you just listened to. And in that case higher keys will always sound brighter or more energetic etc. Or it's possible that a sample being pitch shifted in the DAW has changed quality/timbre from needing more or less processing. It's also possible the speaker or room modes of your room acoustics favour certain notes, like a room that has bass build up at 110hz (common in small square rooms) will sound bigger in A. But the key itself is not the factor in my experience.

[@djovercut]

While I agree with this, the info in this video is helpful because for example at this exact moment, I am composing a track, and it doesn't "feel" right to me, but I don't really know what to do in order to get it to feel more right other than just bang on the keyboard and hope to find the right bassline, so a video like this helps in potentially making that step easier.

[@digidope]

@@BthelickThat is interesting that all keys are equal. Lately i have been composing in D# as i think it's more "interesting". As you say all keys are equal, but if most music i listen is F-A# then D# sounds more interesting as it's less common to hear. And A sounds "flat" for the reason that at least "back in time" most electronic music tended to be in A minor for obvious reason. Thanks for the video! My BT headphones seem to play that low D# quite well! My room is "flat" down to 33hz so there i can hear it well (room has 300ms decay at 30hz so that is not "flat" anymore 😂)

[@rickyspanish4792]

@@digidope well, as long as the notes are the same relative distance from each other, the melodic vibe is going to be the same - but the frequency of your melody as a whole does matter in terms of sound; if you'd transpose a song up 2 whole octaves, it's gonna sound super silly. So I guess you're both right; it won't really change in that it'll suddenly sound very spooky or mysterious or anything, it'd be more of a difference in perceived "speed" or "energy"

[@AutPen38]

When bashing out some chords and riffs, my hands default to starting with A minor, because that scale is easiest to play, and I frequently drop down to F and G as they sound so familiar (they are used in thousands of dance tunes, for obvious reasons) and there's never an issue with the bass notes when I play A, G, and F, but it's quite telling that - on my cheap speakers - if I go any lower, the bass sounds a bit weedy or non-existent. If I try starting on F, then I naturally gravitate to ascending root notes for my chords, because going down sounds rubbish. I think the point - for me - is that it's not the key itself that creates this "bass problem", but where the *lowest* root note occurs. i.e. I wouldn't "write all my songs in F for good bass" like some producers might suggest, because I can't descend much below that root without issues. I'd be more likely to program basslines where the *lowest* significant bass tones are F or E, even if the key/song actually starts up on C or D.

[@Bthelick]

Yes correct if the genre is one that uses chord changes in the drop , then it is the lowest chord root that are the concern not the key.

[@Bittamin]

I love you for typing this out and just the whole community here working together towards a better understanding of what the best choices for the music are 🙏 seriously thanks to both of you, the creator and viewer 🎉 we’re all in this together!

[@harisdiz.5817]

My brain went into preservation mode every time you played the note.

[@KarsonMusic]

Helps with understanding all the different hz etc, cos I see most music producers talk, I just look confused ha, ty

[@chrisgreenwell3404]

Great style of teaching , thank you :)

[@vividvice]

Love the tracks 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@Lost1nTranslation]

Super interesting! Thanks for the insight into the topic 😮

[@iiiicks]

I can hear it all, I have a quality sound system, can't live without it. Great videos, great channel! ✌

[@MrMikomi]

I think Trevor Horn did Relax in E for this reason, but thinking about it now he must have been gunning for the E an octave above your bottom E. Thanks for all your videos.

[@Bthelick]

Interesting. Either way he's certainly the kind that would consider it for sure

[@ramsaysg]

watched this twice on phone, once with phone speakers and then with some MDR 7506s plugged in, same volume in both cases. I could hear everything with headphones, differences missing on phone speakers with lower hz inperceptible. Good Video!

[@GingerDrums]

I recently had to mix a track in C. It was challenging but you can get the sub extension from the kick and blend in some of the lowest octave... Still, id advise against it :)

[@Bthelick]

Yes we talked about this last week on the live stream, it needs good sound.selection / design to work. A low kick is certainly the way, and a 'phantom' bass octave in the upper bass sound. One oscillator -12 but high passed so only the upper harmonics remain, the ear still hears the low interaction even though the fundamental is gone. If you don't have control over the sound selection then I'm sure trying to just mix that was a nightmare.

[@GingerDrums]

@@Bthelick yeah, it was. i replaced the kick (as I often do in dance mixes) and with that single change you can open most mixes to becoming polished sounding. It's getting festival plays by some big names, so the work payed off for the client. Anyway, been nice listening to ya and your excellent content, many little things in here for even a "seasoned" working engineer like myself to pick up on or refresh. I can basically underwrite all your advice from my experience, very critical and logical thought process and I can tell you care about this stuff (and cutting through BS) Keep trucking!

[@meilstone]

I couldn't hear the D# sub on my Galaxy phone at first, but it's audible when you get really close with your ear. This is a great lesson teaching us how important the top layer of a bass is and that for dance music to get the feel across on all devices it's advisable to split the bass line into top and sub. The top for character (you can even give it some stereo width), the mono sub for the belly region...

[@ackzz]

Totally agree - cheers!

[@d_lala]

Some producers work only in F- to G scale for the stated reason. Keys do matter :) Would you suggest any "good" keys for house piano?

[@Bthelick]

Though bass is important for all dance music, The key consideration here is just for the lowest optimal/strongest bass across on most good systems, I would say this applies more to 'heavier' genres that stay mostly on 1 tone base like techno. Piano house often moves more and it's less reliant on extremely strong bass imo. I think any keys are good for piano house but in general the advice in the video is pretty universal.

[@randomizednamme]

Interestingly on a set of Apple HomePods it was very easy to hear the D# line in isolation but not in the mix. Maybe it’s just my ears but without a dedicated sub can the upper frequencies mask out the lower ones? In the A line it was of course very easy to hear even in the mix.

[@Bthelick]

Octaves can mask each other yes. Apple use fake bass processing so you were probably hearing the harmonics generated by that not the actual fundamental frequency. And then when the upper bass came in it will have masked those apple harmonics. Either that or the total amount of energy was too much for the apple in built compression so the total sub level was reduced when the rest of the sounds were playing. This is why we use monitoring headphones/ speakers not 'hifi' ones so we can hear closer to the truth without unknown processing on top.

[@sofoklessantorini1888]

thank you very happy to find your channel

[@Bthelick]

Thanks for the compliments 👊🙏🙌

[@michaelphelan2671]

It's all about those harmonics. You won't get bass power on smaller speakers anyway, but as long as you can hear what the bassline is doing on smaller speakers that's what's important. People into their music know that bass is ... on most tracks unless you're listening on a proper system, i.e. with a subwoofer, in the car, in a club, etc.

[@Bthelick]

Yes indeed. Well this channel is focused on club music and those upper harmonics can cause a lot of mud it's a fine balance. Keys like C in a club sit in a very awkward spectrum regardless of harmonics, sounding too bass light above and sounding too muddy low , the 2nd harmonic is a 5th after all, not always a welcome note low down (also tasking the club speaker management system overly hard)

[@alherbert6620]

Time to get in the studio and start experimenting. Thanks again for an amazing Vid. Top man 🙏

[@pocketsofoceans9248]

love the format

[@MadelnMachines]

Given this where do you stand on subwoofers for studios and what about more underground genres that is really designed for DJs and big club systems rather than more commercial chart dance - is it still better to use higher notes? Studio monitors should be fine around the 50hz region I think?

[@Bthelick]

A sub is required to properly hear down there for sure, Or should I say more accurately; a good room that can accommodate a sub is required, as a sub is useless unless the room is set up for it. But it's entirely possible to guess with good headphones and metering, that will just mean more trial and error checking back and forth in the club that's all.

[@leiocerayt]

That's quite interesting, thank you! I always thought D is good for bass because I could hear it on my headphones. But it's actually only great for HiFi speakers. Tip: When I use a low key (like D or E), I distort the subbass. I just found your channel and asked myself: Why is the screen so cropped and in a 1:1 aspect ratio?

[@Bthelick]

Hey thanks the comment The ratio is just because I don't have much time so I can't do separate edits for Instagram and KZbin. 1:1 is better for those scrolling on phones so I just use that for now. Is it really annoying on desktop?

[@leiocerayt]

@@Bthelick Ok, thanks for the answer. No, it's not annoying to me, I was just wondering why that is :)

[@cjfromgtasanadreas]

@@Bthelick I literally didn't notice it until he mentioned it, don't find it annoying though, not here for the visuals

[@FBWFTW]

Will you remind me when this track releases 🙏

[@tdtrecordsmusic]

Yup, I can hear it. I have subs though & a nicely tuned room + system. I feel like subs are NECESSARY. absolutely necessary. To test I loaded operator . only 1 voice playing sine on fixed. =no distortion or harmonics. It sounds as though my system has a falloff starting around 35hz to 22hz. 22hz is really quiet but I can still hear bass. Below that I can hear the speaker moving, but it doesn't have that bass tone that fills your ear. yeah i can hear all the way down to 10hz. it doesn't go lower. it sounds more like something is moving, like the fridge in another room. yeah 40 down to 35 is pretty low. just seems to vibrate the file cabinets

[@djatlasmusik]

YES I HEARD IT. Point taken tho, being a veteran producer that i am, its always cool to hear others rules and perspectives. The bass in d# i can hear it just fine, i understand that alot wont hear it with their system, however again u can still HEAR the bass in D# just it is less powerful. HOWEVER in style like a hardwave a subgenre of trap edm, the low bass and the sub bass are often combined and sometimes distorted together to make 1 big reese sound and it is often very LOUD, so you can 100% still here the bass in the d# for example. Anyway thanks for this rule. It will be useful for my less bassy songs i will avoid keys below d# for certain pojects now

[@Bthelick]

Yeah, there's no absolute rules in music, I'm just trying to give some 'rules of thumb' or guiding principles to get them started. Having said that, even when you distort the d# in trap etc, you're hearing it because you've increased the 2nd harmonic (octave) and above, you still can't get the fundamental above 0, it's rarely actually louder.

[@bülentkazar]

Greetings, first of all thank you for your quality and understandable sharing, there is a subject I want to ask. Is key important for kick - drums?

[@Bthelick]

Check my "tuning kicks" video 👊

[@microsoftpain2734]

My room cancels out ~48-60 hz, though i hear lower C, D, and E pretty well. And my monitors are not even supposed to reproduce them)

[@Bthelick]

Haha well at least you know! That's half the battle

[@mitchiemasha]

In regards to Zhu Zaiyu. I did read sometime ago that the maths isn't perfect and for some keys, it's not as perfect as others. Where I learnt this went on to show how some classical pieces made a huge difference when played tuned to the traditional actual key vs the universal kind of fits all tuning. It'd be interesting to know more about this, as avoiding those keys could be an idea, especially when shifting entire melodies up and down semi tones to find the best bass note, fitting centre (as mentioned here). Sometimes we could make the track 2-5 bpm slower, knowing the DJ will pitch it up (or we could pitch it up ourselves prerelease), if the bass note was to fall too low... keeping that too low note, but avoiding the less intune key of standard tunings. Probably overthinking it now though!!! On another tip, slightly related, back in the day us rave dj's were 45 ing 33 records for the bpms, meaning we had little consideration for the actual sub. Coming from tinny, tiny ear walkman earbuds, no one new what they were missing. Voting for energy over sub, extreme bounciness, every time!

[@mitchiemasha]

45 -6/-8 that would be! Radio stations were notorious for playing everything at +2, some would argue it was purely for shorter tracks for more advertisement space, others, it was for that extra energy over the competition, but now we also know... it meant more of that lost bass would have the potential to be perceived over poorer systems, although somewhat higher in pitch, non of us are pitch perfect anyways so it wouldn't really matter.

[@Bthelick]

Yes the equal temperament we use now is a compromise. Any guitar player goes through this when they try to tune the B string by ear against the G. It will always be flat as the natural ratio resonance of a major 3rd that sounds best to us can't fit in all keys or chords unfortunately.

[@mitchiemasha]

@@Bthelick So looking into a guitarists struggles in this regard would be a good place for me to learn more about it?

[@Bthelick]

Look up a video by Jacob Collier called "how harmony was ruined" or any videos on "just temperament" tuning

[@mitchiemasha]

@@Bthelick George Collier? I'll watch this now.

[@cerodb4695]

I could hear the D# and A, and thank you for clarifiying a concept, which I always knew was there, but never quitte got it. I am amazed how much difference the feel is even when the distance is just a couple of notes. Thank you!

[@aashish2763]

Very well explained video on this subject. D#0 is weak in my opinion and wont translate well on most consumer speakers , key A might translate well. what do you think adding extra harmonics in sine wave in serum wavetable editor will help ? 👍

[@Bthelick]

Sometimes. you just gotta use your ears, The first harmonic in the Harmonic series is an octave, so it depends what the bass sound is already doing above the sub. It's possible to risk cancellation if you're just doing it as a rule without checking.

[@kanedNunable]

was weird, i couldnt hear it initially as volume low. turning up volume meant i could clearly hear it. is this what the old loudness buttons did on stereos? so you could hear those frequencies at lower volume? i guess the opposite of what we call night mode now. im learning ableton and its made me realise i shouldnt do much bass work if i cant turn up the volume (when son is in next room he gets pissed off haha)

[@Bthelick]

Loudness buttons on stereos were 'smile' eqs. After a pair of scientists called Fletcher and Munson discovered that our hearing is not linear with volume, we're only sensitive to speech range at low volume but hear more bass and treble relative to that as volume increases. (The Fletcher-Munson curve). Yeah don't be guessing down there, get some good headphones!

[@DanHaycocks]

Wonderful content as ususal :) Could you possibly consider a video about Sub bass? I looked but couldn't find one. My question after watching this was about basslines and thier subs. Is their any point in creating a sub bass below 40hz? ..and many other questions! thanks.

[@Bthelick]

I have video on "how I process house bass" where I show sub separation. Regarding frequencies I don't usually go lower than the low D at 36hz for club music. Below that I swap the octave. If it's not club music the lowest I'll go is E or F

[@DanHaycocks]

Great, ta. Yes - the 'process house bass' tut is very helpful and I've applied the teachings :) I guess I am now interested in what types of tunes use or need sub and when or not to use. I'm pretty new to EDM and sub is a new concept. Cheers! @@Bthelick

[@Bthelick]

@@DanHaycocks in general, if it's intended for club , or needs to achieve commercial levels of overall loudness then I recommend separating the bass so you have sub control. There will be cases where the bass part does not stand out, more like a rumble, or just very dull sounding, sometimes in those cases there is not enough 'tone' to separate off, so it stays as a sub only bass part.

[@iambadd]

B for Bass. Got it

[@mikesaintjulesmusic]

Good video. Been producing for 20 years, but I'm back in my back to basics mode and find videos like these. For whatever reason I have to think more about those lower octaves before I completely give up on a particular bass sound. The results could have been there all along during the audition process. My question though is how low do you go in the octave for a bass before you consider the kick drum's heaviness? I do it mostly by ear of course, but do you consider the weight of a kick drum before or after introducing a bass in these lower octave?

[@Bthelick]

Personally, on a big club system, for 4x4 genres I don't like the effect of a bass going lower than the kick, it messes with the groove too much imo. unless it's far lower in level. So I pick my kick with that in mind and try not to let the bass lower. There's exceptions of course but that's my general rule of thumb.

[@mikesaintjulesmusic]

@@Bthelick Thanks for the response. I agree with this. In the end its a decision to either have the kick heavier or the bass and EQ adjust where necessary.

[@gmpro9159]

Why do Daws represent E1 as E0? I've never realised why but knew it's hard to know where you are in relation. So basically all Daws represent everything an octave lower?

[@Bthelick]

I can't speak for all daws these days, but it seems that way from my experience so far

[@FBWFTW]

Want to support this track in my next mix!!!

[@Bthelick]

I just spent 2 hours looking for the final name of this track when it released, and it looks like I never released ! I'll get it released soon sorry

[@FBWFTW]

@@Bthelick thanks B! Love the videos bro

[@FBWFTW]

@@Bthelick @ me here when it’s released would you please?

[@Bthelick]

I'll try but can't promise, it's a minimum 4 week lead time to Spotify etc right now and I have no way of marking this question unanswered on KZbin. And with the number of questions coming in its going to get buried down the list. Best way; Can you leave me a fresh comment saying "reminder ; key me know when this releases" and if I leave it unanswered I can track it on my KZbin backend 👊

[@FBWFTW]

@@Bthelick re-commented fresh

[@rumblef1sh]

I had to switch to my headphones, but once I did both differences were clearly audible. BTW, what is that frequency monitoring plugin you are using? I tried using the EQ plugin in my DAW, or the supplied spectrum analysis, but the results aren't as pronounced like yours, which make the peaks easy to see :)

[@Bthelick]

It's Span by Voxengo. It's free!

[@rumblef1sh]

@@Bthelick many thanks! Have just installed it :)

[@partlysimpson5154]

Sub is about the feeling mostly, not hearing. It's hard to get ir right yah?

[@Bthelick]

Well all music is feel! But we can hear down to circa 20hz if the environment allows so it's both. The waveforms moving through air in the sub range can actually be longer than our bodies so they do literally vibrate us not just our ears, so you can certainly argue sub is more about feel than higher frequencies! It's definitely hard for the first few years, I don't find it so hard now with decades of ear training and a great listening environment.

[@TheTeacherMusic]

Next to key i also would like to add that bpm also matters. With the harder styles that range from 150 to 300 bpm, the time a kickdrum has to play the full sub tone is quite different. So what i noticed that around the 150 - 160 bpm range the note F or F# plays the best on festival/PA systems. But when going to 200 bpm and faster, the F# and G tone get played better by most systems. Only the really good subs like L'acoustics that go down to 25hz can blow guests away when going F or even lower like E of D#. Like you said in the video, it all depends on delivery. Make music for people at home and just choose a higher key like A, B and C. Make music for the dance scene and more specifically big festivals, just produce on F, F# or G for maximum sub wubzzzz 😁

[@Bthelick]

Very good point yes, lower notes take longer to develop and travel though air, so faster genres will have less time for them to become audible. Although DnB doesn't have that problem as they just don't use subby kicks. In the more thoroughly engineered stuff like sub focus / noisia they are still down in the 30s sometimes.

[@TheTeacherMusic]

​@@Bthelick Yes DnB can go very low because they use kick drums seperate from the sub bass 😁

[@Bittamin]

People are making music at 200 bpm? 👀

[@TheTeacherMusic]

@@Bittamin Yeah in The Netherlands we have a whole culture for more than 30 years called Hardcore/Gabber. Not for the faint of hart. Uptempo Hardcore starts around 200 bpm up to 300. From 300 and up its mostly considered to be Terror.

[@mitchiemasha]

Makina is popular my way... mostly played at 170-175. Some pushing 180. I tent to make mine at 166, it gives more space, knowing the DJ will pitch this (not keylocked) to 170, (does make my cringe a bit when sent videos played at 175+). I've often wondered the maths of the pitch shift fader related to when it's actually the next key up.

[@vroteg]

Personally I prefer warded key to tubular key. But it is my personal preference…

[@Bthelick]

I don't understand those terms

[@DespaceMan]

The limit for me is around 10Hz can't hear it at all but 20Hz no problems 😁

[@matthewdemetree6743]

do you offer one on one production sessions ?

[@Bthelick]

Hey sorry I just don't have the time. Just let me know in the comments what you're struggling with and let's see if we can make a video on it 👊

[@matthewdemetree6743]

@@Bthelick I started to make house music only a few months ago and I feel like I've made some decent progress but I I've been really struggling to get past the 8 to 16 bar drum loops I have with a good bass. I struggle with arrangingment and building out the entire song. maybe a video on getting passed this stage of producing would be great or any tips you have

[@squirrelcatcher]

​@@matthewdemetree6743very easy to find 121 coaching. Expect to pay around 30-50 per hour

[@Bthelick]

Have you seen my videos on "how to drop"? And "arrangement" yet? Those should help. Edit; also I just made a video on how to finish a loop

[@musicproductionbrauns2594]

i thought it was a car outside and paused your video

[@eyboss99]

Oi same here lmao, I was like who TF revving their engine in my driveway at goddamn 1am. 😂

[@OfoeNelson]

My earbuds go as low as 8Hz so yes I could hear the sub

[@scott3107]

Great videos, thanks. A suggestion if I may - don't say anything when you A-B as sometimes it can be difficult to hear the difference when demonstrating subtle changes. A caption is enough!

[@Bthelick]

Noted, thanks for feedback Scott.

[@sebastian1055]

I hear the lower D better than the A

[@Bthelick]

Ahh interesting, that indicates a room mode cancellation then. Is it still the case when you move your listening position?

[@ekim7717]

Lol. No one is mentioning the thumbnail???

[@Niedvin_hq]

F 😎

[@dj-_-jd]

yes no kinda maybe true story :)

[@jarnix2]