Are Fake Manual Transmissions Coming? Audi Keeps It Real

[@Icekick2007]

What blows my mind the most about the fake engine sounds, is Audi went through the trouble of putting a menu to select modes, but didn't include 'off' as an option.

[@miah318]

Has to do with pedestrian safety. Nah I thought it was external engine noise, my b

[@JKDJack]

I think fake engine sounds in electric cars makes sense for a fun perspective. You could basically program your car to be like any car and engine. In the stupidest way of saying it they could use Forza programing for engine sounds and character to the car. If it's done right it will sound good

[@Icekick2007]

@TheFollowUpHit totally understand the concept; my point was simply that there ought to also be a way to totally turn it off, if that's what you want. I don't get why that isn't an option.

[@caty863]

@@Icekick2007 You can always remove the speakers. That way, you get the annoying noise turned off, and you get some cash by selling the speakers to the street kids.

[@slowanddeliberate6893]

Sounds associated with your vehicle's acceleration help boost the driver's awareness, which is inherently safer.

[@m4rc3l12]

Opel did an Electric Restomod with a manual Transmission! Its called the Opel Manta GSe ElektroMOD.

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

old car conversion kits did too

[@EnergyTRE]

how did it turn out ??

[@astruga]

That’s just a concept car, not a production model

[@EnergyTRE]

i hear some rich guys toy for 2m.... going once....

[@thirdpedalnirvana]

Lots of EV conversions use manual transmissions that you do need to shift... Because they use DC rather than AC motors. AC motors require complex circuitry and controllers, but have the instant torque, flat torque curve, and high speed characteristics associated with EV's. In mass production, it's more economical to design these controllers once and mass produce them than it is to mass produce a shifting transmission. But if you are converting just one car, by yourself, in your garage, and it already has a manual gearbox, it's much less expensive to go the DC route. And DC electronics are much easier to figure out doing it yourself. It's just, DC motors do not have as much low speed torque or high speed power.

[@AlanTheBeast100]

The CVT "shift points" should be a user option in the vehicle settings. Especially not having them at all (most efficient ratios for torque/speed).

[@theAessaya]

Never understood why some manufacturers do that with the CVTs, it defeats the entire purpose of a CVT!

[@AndrewPrinster]

Agreed, I've got a forester and I wish it didn't have those fake shifts. If I want to shift I'll jump in the WRX.

[@AkinaGhost]

@@theAessaya I mainly blame the consumers for this, especially North America. They're the main reason manufacturers added shift points to CVTs because they felt odd or weird compared to traditional automatics...

[@frederickschulze8014]

@@AkinaGhost Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make sense to me as an engineer and car enthusiast. But I spoke to someone who is neither of these who test drove a corolla (with CVT) and said he didn't like it because it didn't feel like he was accelerating when he was.... just weird to me because I assumed an average consumer would enjoy the smoothness of it.

[@DokterRoetker]

My Audi A6 diesel had a CTV, and only in Sports mode would it mimick old-school gearing. In normal mode it was just a very smooth CTV, felt like an electric car accelerating

[@NuMetal92]

i am glad to hear someone finally did this. I have been saying for years, it can't be that hard for someone to just map the torque of a combustion engine car to an EV. Imagine instead of choosing between Quiet, Balanced and Sport for your e-tron, you could chose between TT, R8 and S1.

[@monke204ah]

sheesh

[@DVSProductions]

But what's the point? You are just wasting potential

[@christopherjc54]

@@DVSProductions Fun? You can also have an Eco mode for efficient regular driving

[@joshfoley8862]

Totally agree. It will attract a larger crowd to the EV market. Driving is fun for some of us.

[@nyplantingsgardendesigners5645]

really. Let's go Brandon!

[@nate1971]

I wonder if a brand could make a “classic mode” that would let you electronically select older models In the brands past? Each selection could be programmed to mimic that cars characteristics… steering feel, rev ranges, suspension, sounds etc.

[@MrGreenAKAguci00]

Now this is an interesting argument for all this stuff to be made. I would love to be able to turn all that simulation off though as well.

[@JustinDaniels]

THANK YOU! That's exactly what I was saying. It would be fun to have fake engine sounds and shift points for the retro feel occasionally, but not built into the car where you HAVE to use it.

[@michaeljohnson89]

I've been saying this for years. It's a great idea

[@sen_ex]

That would probably be very expensive though, I think the closest thing to that is Renault putting different engine sounds in their EVs or something Edit: correction, this was a thing in the previous gen Renault Clio (normal diesel ICE), you could even choose the sound of the R35 GTR

[@TM42]

I could get with this

[@Erlingmid]

I love manual cars but having driven a lot of electric cars I don't see the appeal of having a fake manual. A lot of the fun of driving a manual is getting the most out of the engine by changing gears just right, while with an electric car the motor is always in its prime so to me it would just feel like I'm limiting the motor if it had a fake manual

[@EngineeringExplained]

I mean, that's exactly what's happening haha, it's limiting the motor. Seems pointless on paper.

[@franciscoshi1968]

@@EngineeringExplained if you have good regen braking it is still exciting to drive fast even you don't have to shift gears and use brakes. The excitement just shifts to a different method of driving. You still need good accelerator control to not spin the wheels (if you turn traction control off) and brake at the last possible moment and get on the power at the earliest.

[@JKDJack]

Cvts do it as well 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@siguy3546]

It doesnt seem ideal, but it may be the best we can get in the future. Then again, manual transmissions have been limiting the performance for years, autos are simply faster in almost every sports car application today.

[@bbehzadi413]

@@siguy3546 not entirely true automatic transmission technology in the 90s and early 2000s wasn’t what it is today. The slushboxes couldn’t downshift fast at all and upshifts were unpredictable that’s why manuals weren’t the performance transmission. Even Ferraris early f1 transmissions had a lot of problems

[@lucasglowacki4683]

Lol…why don’t we make cars have fake horse sounds for that extra nostalgic feeling😂

[@BubblesTheCat1]

Exactly

[@jsmariani4180]

The fake internal sounds are not going to cut it for motorheads. The want YOU to hear the roar.

[@aaronfowler7375]

i will only accept the clip-clop of coconut halves

[@stephankyle6460]

My last car would piss fluids on the floor of my garage. I should have put down some hay.

[@BubblesTheCat1]

I forgot to feed my car hay, now it has died on me...

[@brianroque7346]

Maybe fake manual transmissoons could work if manufacturers allow users to have the choice to make it work like a normal EV whenever they want to, which is definitely possible. This gives the driver the choice to row through gears for fun and nostalgia, and still have normal EV benefits for normal use. This reminds me of how Subaru does their CVTs in some of their cars. In normal D mode, it acts like how a CVT should by finding the optimum RPM and sticking to it while in Sport mode, it does fake shifts. So despite the 'sport' tag in sport mode, it is actually slower in terms of outright acceleration than in normal D mode, but sport mode feels more engaging and less 'annoying'. Regardless of which you prefer, atleast you have the choice, which is how I hope fake manual EVs will give.

[@dr_frost_dk]

Im doing all that, power curves, gears and gear ratio ( total and pr gear ), also ICE sound, clutch etc

[@Laykun9000]

With anything added to a car, there will be added cost. I don't see this making it onto mainstream cars, it would be a very niche market for fake manual transmission EVs. The customer that buys one would want that feature. I agree it should be configurable, but from a companies money making standpoint this makes very little sense. How many people actually drive manuals these days? It's pretty rare.

[@therealsnow]

Owning a 2021 Subaru with a CVT I can tell you it does not act like a CVT should, even in normal D mode it still does the fake gear shifts.

[@alecb8509]

@@Laykun9000 No one drives manuals anymore because the manufacturers don't make them anymore. It used to be, cars came standard with a manual and the automatic was an extra cost upgrade. If manufactures still did that, there are plenty of people that would buy them to save money. Especially now with car prices through the roof.

[@HR15DE]

I seriously never understand why all car manufacturers dont put a button that allow you to choose cvt behaviour. They dont have to change any hardware its just a simple software and a button or switch. In most cars you cant get the full benefits of cvts because of boomers need to hear gear shifts. Cvts can be faster than any transmission but most cvts are significantly slower than any other transmission regardless of the mode that they are in.

[@bluetoes591]

The thing to be said for fake engine sound is that it gives you another way to perceive speed. A lot of modern cars (EV or ICE) are so quiet inside that I find myself going faster than I think I am because there is not enough feedback beyond the speedometer. And I like the idea of a fake manual EV for the same reasons. More interactivity and feedback, means more understanding of what the car is doing, even if the car is just duping you into thinking that.

[@cadriver2570]

EVs have their own NVH issues, particularly with high frequencies. The synthetic motor sounds are designed to draw your attention away from that to a nicer sound. It's a psychoacoustic problem. Electric cars are very quiet, but other sounds (motors, inverters, gearing, pumps and electrical systems, road noise, wind noise) become very annoying. Some noises sound awful at any volume.

[@ItsTheNada]

Very true. Electric motors sound cool at low RPMs and like a maniacal dentist’s drill at speed. It’s why they decided to stuff a crap load of sound deadening into the cars to save drivers the pain of hearing what the motors really sound like.

[@MrTeff999]

I’ve been driving an electric Chevrolet Spark for seven years and I’ve never really noticed the sound. Or vibration, or harshness. I never noticed them in my brother’s 2013 Model S or any of the Model 3s that I’ve been in.

[@ItsTheNada]

@@MrTeff999 The harshness is really just the sound of a heavy electric motor. They’ve definitely engineered that out through bushings and sound deadening, so you’ll be left with a very nice ride. I was just saying, this is why EVs will never really give the same organic visceral feeling that an ICE can. ICE NVH can be tuned to be very pleasant. EV NVH can’t be pleasant so it has to be fully suppressed.

[@cadriver2570]

@@MrTeff999 Can't speak for the Bolt personally, but Teslas make some annoying sounds. There is a lot of forum talk on the subject.

[@ItsTheNada]

@@cadriver2570 I hear that is due to build quality (random knocks) and road/wind noise. Is that what the forums say?

[@peanuts.13]

I completely agree with the CVTs with simulated gears. It boggles my mind why they thought it was a good idea. Any product (cars & transmissions included) should simply try to be the best version of itself, not imitating something it's not. People complain because it doesn't behave the way they're used to, but there's always an adjustment period with anything new. I'd argue a smooth and quiet CVT & motor would be preferable to unrefined automatics.

[@tams805]

Then you're going to hate these things called video games. Especially the ones with controllers that simulate real world controls. But lots of people love them. I don't see why that shouldn't be extended into real vehicles.

[@peanuts.13]

@@tams805 Ok I'll bite. The point of a video game is to simulate and be enjoyable. So it's trying to be the best at that. The point of a CVT is to be efficient in delivering power/fuel economy, and trying to simulate gears defeats that purpose. It also fails in feeling like an actual automatic, which makes it worse. Similarly, video games that do not simulate well and/or are not enjoyable aren't going to do very well. Also, I like video games as much as the next guy, but does ANYONE like CVTs with simulated gears?

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

@@tams805 I agree with you. its ok for things just to be fun

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

@@peanuts.13 When it comes to those CVT simulations its often for if the car is in a certain mode or just under max throttle. And when cursing it goes back to being a normal CVT.

[@Chronostra]

@@peanuts.13 because as far as I know, CVT cars don't sell as good as others, I guess? and companies want profit to boot, so they market it as close as automatic but "slightly better" on paper (and more expensive), even tho it's worse in application to simulate it Cmiiw tho

[@Looo0007]

since it's fake anyway... do they have an "auto mode"? like when you're tired or stuck in traffic and dont really want to deal with the manual transmission mode.

[@rakeau]

Was just thinking the same .. and .. how do you stall an EV?

[@goosenotmaverick1156]

When you get down to it, the powertrain itself is no different than any other event, I'd assume use of clutch pedal would be optional. I mean the electric motor does not idle, no reason to require action from the driver to "disconnect" I would think. But that's just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong on it. I'd assume with no throttle input the electric motor is just off, same as when you push the clutch. Who knows I'm sure they could just about program it to behave however you wanted, the question is more about how they think it would be best done, I guess?

[@Looo0007]

@@goosenotmaverick1156 basically, you're driving a simulator, but it actually moves, can crash, costs a lot, and need maintenance.

[@EngineeringExplained]

Yeah, push a button and it's all deactivated, drives like a normal EV.

[@OpCzar]

A few potential reasons to have a fake manual transmission that I can think of are * To allow immediate coasting when you press in the fake clutch which disables regen braking. * Limit torque to drive in the snow/mud. * Give an impression of the speeds you want to limit yourself to using gears (0-20 kph, 0-40, 40-60, 60-90, 90+).

[@Mquin02]

You can also pop the clutch to initiate a drift if it was RWD

[@noodlesthe1st]

for the second point, I believe the car automatically limits the torque to the wheels similar to an AWD car.

[@economicprisoner]

I still haven't done a response to that dangerous "vehicle virgins" video on "how to drive an automatic": but one thing both they and you missed [is] that you can very easily put an automatic in neutral. You simply slap the shifter forward. There is a stop that you need to bypass with either a button or detent before you reach the reverse gear. People have died not knowing that can do this (looking at you Toyota unintended acceleration recall).

[@estergrant6713]

also just for fun, but idk i mean technically sure its not necessary but un-necessary things aren’t necessarily useless. like yeah i could see how it could be useful to want direct control over your torque to rpm ratio. plus again it seems fun

[@noaerrr]

Also most people, aside from North Americans, are used to driving manuals so it would make the swap to ev easier for them.

[@transtubular]

I always love it when I recognize the road you're driving on Jason, especially when I realize that your driving it literally only a few miles from where I live!

[@matt_lore]

A side effect of the multi-gear rear axle in this car and the Taycan is that they get significantly better ranges on the highway for their EPA ratings than most EVs. In fact, they far outperform their EPA rating at highway speeds (75mph) vs (I think) every other EV on the market.

[@aaryeshg.6526]

This is why EVs need a transmission. Not everyone's commute is within a city (where EVs with one gear work here).

[@custommotor]

I don't believe this statement is true. I found two test with 93Kwh battery and they were 293/297 miles. For example my P85 has an 85kwh battery that is actually around 77.5. Combined range is 265 miles, but cruising range on the highway at 75 is about 250miles with some wiggle room. That averages out to 3.25 miles per Kwh or 307.7 watts per mile. At 55 on a good day I can get closer to 250 watts per mile or 4 miles per Kwh. Porsche shows 240 miles of range for the EPA test or 2.5miles per kwh or 400 watts per mile. Kind of poor. Porsche does over achieve in the real world, but I feel like that is because the EPA test might not get into the second gear. In the real world lets say the porsche gets 295 miles with a 93Kwh battery. That is 3.17 miles per Kwh or 315.5 watts per mile. Even if we say the usable battery is 85kwh that only bumps it up to 3.47miles per Kwh or 288 watts per mile. So, the Taycan is efficient as new tech should be, but not the most efficient. I think the model 3's happily go around at 4 miles per kwh at 75mph for example. I really think the EPA test doesn't engage that 2nd gear to get an accurate reading, but I also believe the gear box just adds complexity for very little or no real gain. I honest think a tiny front that pulls you along at highway speeds would be more efficient then a transmission. Just size that tiny more to be able to pull the car through a headwind and be most efficient between 65-75 mph. Edit, I will say though that the ticon having two gears allows it to use smaller electric motors which are probably more efficient at cruising speeds than a larger motor, but that efficiency is probably lost with the transmission.

[@knroo-j1487]

@@aaryeshg.6526 EVs can already have multiple drive motors, with one set geared for highway considerations, removing the complexity, weight, harshness and additional failure point(s) of a transmission.

[@snakeeyes9246]

If I'm not mistaken, putting the E-tron GT and Taycan into their most efficient modes (efficiency and range mode respectively) also reduces power to the front motor or shuts it off entirely, as well as setting the transmission into 2nd gear. I am yet to drive one, so I'm not sure.

[@custommotor]

@@snakeeyes9246 that's interesting. If anything I would think it would shut off the rear motor and use the front motor is smaller and therefore is usually more efficient at cruising speeds. Just because it would be more loaded.

[@victorriceroni8455]

I have never heard a manual transmission enthusiast call for getting rid of automatic transmissions. I do see time and again instances of "It's been decided" that all vehicles will be equipped with this, and will no longer be available with that. I am so sick and tired of some body else deciding what I have to live with, and even worse the hive mind shits telling me to comply.

[@MLHunt]

Every time I see the sales splits on the few cars that actually still offer manuals, the take rate for manuals is very low. Notwithstanding how manual enthusiasts on car forums and performance car journo outlets frequently beg people to buy the manual. What really drove the move away from manuals wasn't some hive mind. It was people voting with their wallets. It doesn't make economic sense for OEMs to incur all the costs associated with continuing to develop and support variants of cars that don't sell. Look at how some luxury crossover OEMs e.g. Infiniti comes to mind, are bringing back automatics to models that were switched over to CVTs. The manufacturers do respond to market signals.

[@kamikaze91ful]

I feel same bro

[@tams805]

@@MLHunt We know. But the whole 'get over it' attitude is unnecessary, rude, and condescending.

[@randymiller1610]

@@MLHunt It depends on which car you are looking at. There are more manual Miatas sold than automatics, and the Golf GTI and R combined are close to 50/50. One thing that influences it is what you are more likely to find on dealer lots. If all you find on dealer lots is automatics and you have to special order one if you want a manual, then that's going to influence the take rate in a big way.

[@Sheridantank]

@@tams805 Facts>feelings. Get over it. Quit being so offended by people trying to use logic to explain why things are why you don't like it. It's only rude if you think everything is rude.

[@matthewbeasley7765]

Toyota did a similar thing with their "B" mode in their hybrids. The "B" mode put the powertrain in braking mode. If there was capacity in the battery, it would do aggressive dynamic braking. Once the battery charges, the engine is spun without fuel to burn energy with compression braking. Stepping on the brake will rev the engine higher resulting in more retarding action from compression. If you're accelerating, "B" mode does nothing. The engine is run at the point of maximum efficiency at all times. I'm not sure what year it happened, but Toyota got rid of the "B" mode and replaced it with "L". In "L" mode the engine RPM is matched to a fixed, low ratio. It will make the engine turn over like mad at freeway speed. It makes no sense. It is useless, especially on long steep grades as it doesn't apply enough low speed compression braking to prevent brake overheat. (I have personal experience with this on Washington State's Hurricane Ridge Road in Olympic National Park.) All I can assume is some boomer in management complained about how confusing "B" is and insisted on making it "like something he understands."

[@ian.williamson]

Isn’t the L gear just 1st? My parents have a 4Runner and the gears go PRND432L (it’s a 5 speed)

[@birdvalenchez]

L stands for low. It keeps it in high rpm low gear range. Basically you're getting the most torque you can out of a small area. L is for when you get stuck in mud or need to drive over a log or need the car to pull really hard but don't go fast in L. This will overheat your transmission as it's not supposed to go fast in L. Read the owners manual for your vehicle before you assume what things do and yes ive made the same mistake as you slipping my old Ford Expedition into "2" instead of D and it locks it in second gear which is bad for high speed

[@matthewbeasley7765]

@@ian.williamson Not in a hybrid. A hybrid is an electronic CVT when the engine is running. (Excluding GM's brief 2 mode hybrid in the puckup and full size SUV.) Excluding the silly prius joystick, hybrids usually have PRNDB. The change is Toyota and Ford have PRNDL.

[@ian.williamson]

@@matthewbeasley7765 you’re basically both saying that L is just 1st (high gear ratio). I guess with a cvt it just makes the gear ratio as high as possible given the current speed? So you’re engine braking as much as possible?

[@nikdog419]

I used to drive my family's first gen Toyota Prius almost exclusively in B. It made the car act as though I downshifted the second I took my foot off the gas. I'd only pop it into D if I intended to coast, but that was rare. Most of the time it'd be in B with cruise control on the freeway or in city traffic with constant acceleration and deceleration. Objectively I think Cruise Control worked better in B than D, since the ECU was given everything aside from the disc brakes to slow the car down instead of coasting and hoping you'd slow back down to your requested speed.

[@Paul-pj5qu]

I think it can be just as easily argued that two gears is for top speed as well. Presumably, if they only had one year it would be somewhere between the two. If it's between the two, the acceleration off the line would not be as good, nor would the top speed. It also could extend range to have a crossing gear.

[@shutu6338]

tesla got away with single gear cuz they made 250km/h topspeed but for germans 250km/h is for breakfast they need 300+ for autobahn so they need 2nd gear to be able to have good launch and topspeed

[@tristianbilly001]

What you calling one gear is wrong. Those cars actually have NO gears because it's direct drive where the motors are connected directly to the axles. The motors can turn from 0 to 30000 rpm which makes plenty of room for torque and power output to be efficient

[@Fleming-ql]

The question is, do you actually get more acceleration by increasing torque? If you have too much torque, your wheels just spin out, reducing acceleration, so there might be nothing to gain by increasing torque beyond what many electric cars can put to the wheels using a single gear ratio

[@Oceam]

@@tristianbilly001 No YOU are wrong, they use one gear, a fixed gear ratio, they are not direct drive, no cars wheel will ever reach close to 30000rpm, are you joking?

[@Fleming-ql]

@@tristianbilly001 you could say wheels are gears made from rubber and aluminum, in German you could just call it Übersetzung which means transmission or translation, so it implies that during transmission from motor to wheels, there's always some translation between torque and distance taking place

[@Quirk91]

Whether or not there is nostalgia and tradition involved, these features do enhance your driver experience by making you feel more connected to the car and is simply more stimulating to the senses. The cars powertrain used to do this for you on it's own but in the new age of EV's you need to replace these stimuli with emulations if you want the same kind of mechanically satisfying experience. Still not sure if these emulations will ever have the desired effect though... Can't help it just feeling silly since thers no longer a practical reason for it.

[@Ce13stialBunny]

I taught myself to drive stick after seeing Tura Satana in Faster Pussycat Kill Kill (1965) I know for most people cars are just from Point A-to-Point B, but I really love driving, I’ll just pick a direction and go, and I’m gonna miss when stick shifts are even less used than they are now. I love them.

[@stevelowale9902]

Thanks Jason your a real humble guy, hard to find in a real educated person. Like your content for precision and professional content.

[@tommytbone9778]

accept his engineering degree failed him when he went for the camera instead of his side view mirrors, but kids do love their camera`s

[@QueensGTO_Viper]

Cool video. EVs with fake manuals, fake sounds, fake sense that you're actually doing the driving. Perfect representation of the future in general.

[@JonBecker81]

It’s a perfect example of where we are heading as society. Looks, tastes, feels, sounds real but it’s all fake.

[@LoveClassicMusic0205]

Sickening, isn't it?

[@YoutubeAreJewz]

Underrated comment!!!!!

[@JonBecker81]

@Davide D'Et yep!

[@BigVine-m5i]

"I can't believe it's not BUTTER!"

[@jbmectronic4314]

This..

[@ScizzyGibbler]

You hit the nail on the head, it’s a nostalgia moment. It’s not real, it’s not authentic, you wouldn’t use it to achieve optimum performance, but you would use it here or there just to remember what it was like.

[@SAABguyMD]

Dude! Awesome review. You state a few very obvious points to us car enthusiasts, but sometimes I feel like the manufacturers are completely cut off from normal people and/or enthusiasts. I really enjoyed the video, keep up the good work!

[@Triptisim]

I’ve been thinking about this for years, glad you shed some light on it!! It’s all going to hinge on how well the software implementation will be to make it “feel” right. Though I don’t think it will ever be as satisfying as the full experience of rowing the gears on an ICE.

[@extragoode]

Most likely it'll be like driving a "manual" in the Cruis'n USA game at the arcade. No pedal feel, all timing, unless it just let's you slam the stick into whatever gear you want anyway.

[@Appletank8]

@@extragoode that’s a thought. will it simulate redlining when you slam 6th to 1st? simulated piston throwing? :V

[@vickigje3416]

There are some legitimate reasons for the engine sounds being made in EVs. I notice this in my work as a driving instructor. Most new studens have a difficult time figuring out how fast modern cars are actually going, given that they are so quiet and vibration free, compared to older cars. This is specially bad when they are used to driving a diesel automatic car at home, and then have to learn at a driving school in a hyper modern EV, that is basically quiet. With the engine sound turned off, they have a way harder time detemening what speed we are going, and end up spending a lot more time looking at the speedometer and adjusting speed, until they can "feel" how fast we are going.

[@uni4rm]

If your students are taking "a lot more time" to look at a speedometer to determine speed you need to work harder. You can see both the speedometer and past the windshield in a glance if you are seated in a car correctly. Why do you think everything is positioned on the dash in front of the driver of regular cars in the first place?

[@Premium-Content]

Might just be because the oldest car I ever drove was from 2005, but I never used the engine sound or vibration as a gauge for how fast I’m going. I get having it as an option for older folks who may have, but that’s no reason to not have it as on option or even have it as default

[@jml7429]

Wrong. There are NO legitimate reasons to have fake engine sounds. This sounds like your problem, not your students.

[@Bav-s30z]

I have a question:- Do you think new drivers going to be unsettled by the high amount of instant torque on the slightest acceleration? With an IC engine, its easier to control because there is a gradual rise in torque so its easier to control. Especially given that most EVs produced today are High torque performance SUVs. The slightest tap of the pedal will have them scared and discouraged to step inside a car, cos they are backing into a parking space at motorway speeds.

[@christopherjc54]

@@Bav-s30z Automakers tune the pedals' responsiveness to be suitable for each model, but it would be a cool feature if going forward the user had more control of the tune (some cars already do this in the form of sport/regular/eco modes and different levels of regenerative braking)

[@bsmukler]

(1) I’m an old thing, and I’m thankful I had so many decades of enjoyment of much lighter weight sports cars that (a) actually sounded and felt great, without piped-in sounds, and (b) actually felt great, with real clutches and real gear shifts. (2) I’ve switched to another great old thing, namely motorcycles, that, for now, still do offer actual sounds and sensations as well as real clutch and gear systems. I stopped buying my favorite sports car model about the time they made manual transmissions a scarcity and started adding-in computer generated engine sounds. Let’s face it: you are paying to make an actual car, traveling along actual roads, behave as though you were playing a video game. (Kind of backwards, in my opinion). My absolute favorite cars were my old Triumph TR3 and my earliest, smallest and lightest weight 911 variants. Kudos to Toyota and Subaru and a few others for still offering small, sporty cars with actual manual transmissions. Now, we need some smart engineering types to perfect synthetic fuels for ICE power trains so that we have an alternative to overpriced laterally moving wheeled elevators.

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

yeah motorcycles are great if you want something sporty and raw.

[@Mr2winners]

Sounds like you need to try the plaid Model S

[@awol.]

Nice to see you back in the old tromping grounds. I miss driving that highway! Hope you enjoyed your visit.

[@Rahhhhhnman]

And Jason makes yet another really interesting video about things I had never considered, but do now.

[@davidjereb]

3:31 Not exactly true. With a permanent magnet electric motor (which are used in basically all electric cars), in the constant power region, you're using some current for field-weakening. Essentially countering the magnetic field of the permanent magnets in the rotor to reduce the induced voltage in the stator, so you can maintain control of the motor. At high speeds, this field-weakening current can be quite significant, contributing a considerable amount of heating to the stator, with no benefit to the mechanical output of the motor. Think about it: At high speed, if you want the mechanical output to be zero torque (coasting), you still need to put power into the motor. Having a second gear with a higher gear ratio allows the electric motor to spin at lower RPM for the same vehicle speed, meaning that you need a lower field-weakening current, thus improving efficiency.

[@zbyszanna]

It's a good point. It's a question if the better efficiency is worth added complexity and parts.

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

From what I know field-weakening is basically like another gear but done electronically. I dont know whats better as a real transmission also has inefficients and downsides.

[@somejoe7777]

This is true, but there are designs that let you use weaker permanent magnets in the first place -- like the PMSR (permanent magnet switched reluctance) design. This reduces the necessary field weakening current significantly.

[@JKDJack]

Thank you for talking about this. Electric motors do have a type of "redline"

[@kentaltobelli1840]

@@somejoe7777 yes but then you lose torque at the low end. However if you don't spend much time at low speeds you could theoretically do field strengthening at low speeds instead!

[@questioner1596]

I've often contemplated a manually shifted CVT - I wonder if you could make a third pedal where you continuously move your foot to adjust the ratio while you use your other foot on the throttle. It might be a way to make driving a CVT engaging while actually being connected to how it works.

[@lanceislateagain]

I thought of something similar, but instead of a third pedal, it was a lever in the center console, akin to a boat or airplane's throttle. Pull it towards you for the maximum torque, push it away for top speed. ... ... Maybe I just watched too many Batman: The Animated Series episodes tho, lol, the Batmobile had a similar lever.

[@questioner1596]

@@lanceislateagain, I thought about that too, but since you can constantly adjust it, that only leaves one hand for the steering wheel, turn signals, wipers, etc.

[@truthurts1692]

an airplane engine with the variable pitch prop is similar. I once had a self-propelled New Holland baler that had a CVT for the wheel drive operated by a lever- very simple mechanism...

[@-nightraider-1169]

This is an interesting idea. We have CVTs with paddles which let you pick fixed gear ratios for some extra torque. I think this is a good idea, gets rid of some of the disconnect. But controlling the ratio of the chain with a third pedal sound honestly kind of difficult, Because the ratio is constantly changing. Also don’t forget CVT’s are not the most forgiving transmissions, I would assume they would not last like that.

[@questioner1596]

@@-nightraider-1169, for longevity, remember that not pushing the clutch pedal can quickly destroy a manual transmission. It's all about involving the user in the process. Perhaps a damper on the pedal would prevent accidentally jerking the controller.

[@BSEUNHIR]

Looking forward to see how this turns out. Aside from faking a traditional transmission, I think a 3rd pedal would still make sense. You could use it to separate regen braking and acceleration. Make regen braking fairly aggressive and allow the pedal to be pushed in to lessen it. Maybe.

[@Soup4Dayz]

I think the engine braking mode that Toyota has in at least the Prius and Camry Hybrid (what I've driven) is the best option for this. Regen braking is very relaxed but there is a B gear below drive that makes it more resistive.

[@kalmmonke5037]

also, it works as launch control, clutch out of high gear and downshift to super low gear, which is more sudden than pushing pedal quickly so more g forces

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

we already have that in pallet movers in warehouses. you just have a throttle when fully off it regens. so you just modulate the throttle but you dont go off of it fully to slow down as fully off is full regen braking.

[@juanordonezgalban2278]

If it where up to me I'd put a circular knob to select the level of regenerative braking, from zero to 100. I could select zero regen for sporty driving and maximum for going down hills. At the end of the day it's software so I don't see why multiple strategies can't be implemented.

[@kalmmonke5037]

mahle is planning a maximally recylable non rare earth metal induction electric motor , which may require gears.maybe something like nissan torodial high torque CVT, koniegsegg hydrallic torque converter. about the launch control: theres also allowing speed of which gears of changed, to affect the torque vs speed difference, so quicker movements in shifts is rewarded. also, can dial in more/less gears.

[@alessandrorusso4415]

I remember that Lotus made an Evora called 414E in the "serial hybrid" configuration, with an ICE working as charger/range extender for batteries. They also put in place a sort of "software gearbox" with paddles to mimic a manual gearbox. Toyota was already an engine supplier for Lotus so the patent you mentioned is also probably behind that first prototype.

[@madeyourmark]

"There's this old thing that worked different, so we made it like that" reminds me of keyboards. When typists made the transition from typewriters to keyboards, they missed the feedback of striking the page so keyboard manufactures implemented a solenoid that made a loud sound every time a key was struck. This went away eventually but those vintage keyboards are pretty incredible to type on.

[@cogadhturtar8408]

I mean this is a great but also horrible example because it really hasn't gone away at all. As a matter of fact its made a complete resurgence. I implore you to go check out the mechanical keyboards subreddit. Or just look up the hundreds if not thousands of custom mechanical keyboard youtubers.

[@jasonknickerbocker6683]

Dude I still buy mechanical keyboards purely for the feedback haha. I don't game, I don't need a performance keyboard, I just spend 30-100% more because monkey brain like click

[@rocketsurgeon11]

Wow...I guessed exactly what they were going to do to mimic gears before even watching the video! I tend to agree with you on all your points regarding the "fun vs. fake". You didn't say, but if they included an "auto" mode where it just drove as a normal electric car, then I really am on board. I think Mazda is working on an electric Miata, and if they do something like this, I think they could capture the fun that most enthusiasts feel is missing from most of the current electric cars. It would be a game changer, and I think it could end up swaying a lot of people's minds on what an electric car *can* be. Right now they are mostly viewed as sterile people movers that can be fast, but boring otherwise.

[@KrisMendezAdventures]

I am working on this right now!

[@Explosivo93]

Opel actually made a manual EV as a concept car with the Opel Manta GSe concept. It has an electric motor as engine and then a regular manual transmission fitted to it. You can use it as an auto if you just leave it in a certain gear and wont need the clutch to start driving. You'll only use the clutch to change gears actually.

[@kooooons]

0:59 I believe a less simple but better answer would be: "for maxing out acceleration *and* high speed efficiency in a single powertrain". As far as i've read , both Taycan and Audi E-Tron RS have exceptionally low Autobahn consumption, due to the second gear keeping the motor close to peak efficiency even at high speeds, whereas other cars have their peak efficiency at much lower wheel speeds. PS: Powerwise the Audi RS E-Tron GT sits between the Porsche Taycan Turbo and the Taycan Turbo S and the RS base price is lower than the Turbo base price ... at least here in germany

[@ICKY427]

thats a good point. german cars have always been made with a higher cruising speed in mind because the autobahn is there.

[@phillyphil1513]

because: STUTTGART.

[@RustOnWheels]

I was dumbfounded when my Toyota with CVT actually ‘shifted’. Lucky that I’m not the only hater. The CVT reminded me of my ‘49 Buick with Dynaflow transmission until that moment.

[@daniallegacy]

Jake be whipping his hand in the e-tron like theres a fly in there somewhere lol

[@spannerwindslayer]

If car makers really were smart they could use the shift to choose a maximum speed while flooring, also lower gears on high speed can be used as a selector of how much regen you get, so if im runing at 5th gear and then lower it to 3rd i get a medium regen breaking, if instead i go to 1st gear i get a ton of regen, i know that's how already works with the pedal, but what if this is sold as a feature specially useful for people with reduced mobility and also as a safety lock?

[@armadillito]

Now this could make sense. And it's important enough a feature to merit large, intentional control inputs.

[@miked5444]

I always thought the same maybe more peak current.

[@alexgarcia3900]

Where do you buy your weed?

[@extragoode]

I like this regen amount selection idea. Shifting gears is a natural, tactile way for a driver to implement multiple options/settings. Sometimes I want to limit torque, though, like on snow or ice. I've used the ECO mode in my Leaf for torque limiting, but it still higher then when I had a 5 speed and used 3rd or 4th gear to try and get some traction (traction control doesn't help much from a stand still). Granted, this is a sports car and probably won't see much snow, but if Toyota put a fake manual in an EV Tacoma and didn't charge a ton for the option, I'd probably buy it even if I only ever used it for said snow/ice situations.

[@BC107BP]

could make sense, but in this scenario, the clutch pedal is useless.

[@arunpools]

I was wondering how it would feel to get some downshift engine braking effect in an electric car with a fake manual transmission! Whatever it feels like it would certainly recuperate energy back into the battery. This actually sounds better than dancing on the accelerator in electric cars for regeneration! Anyways great content man.. keep more of it coming..

[@BeefIngot]

can't believe anyone wants this

[@oliviernoir6669]

Great video, thanks - I did not know they did this strange thing. Calling the taycan "Turbo" is also childish 😀

[@zbyszanna]

I don't fund the turbo part problematic. I had a turbo button on my pc back in the day and nobody thought it had an actual turbine inside.

[@jaj145]

in the future cars will also have turbo buttons that make them run slower

[@rickc303]

This ideal sounds compelling, and could be a lot of fun if the "gear" also controlled amount of brake regen, could go wild slamming shifter around without concern of synchros

[@MJorgy5]

People: "I love my new E mower. I can mow at 5 am. It's so quiet it won't wake the neighbors." Automotive engineers: "Pump v8 noises through the radio."

[@EvgeniTalks]

I know that pure enthusiast will say that this is a bad idea, but as an owner of an electric car, this is sick

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

I think pure enthusiast should get over it. its ok if they don't want it but they should allow these new changes.

[@NoName-oj5km]

Would be cool if you could choose between shifting manually or automatically (or rather: not at all) so you could drive an automatic when youre tired of shifting, and a manual when you want to have fun :)

[@stephen3164]

Would the clutch pedal in the 6-speed EV allow you to coast? I only drive manuals but know an EV is likely in my future - so I like this concept. That said, I’d want an “auto” mode where it does the normal EV thing. Also, I’d hope the fake manual would give you a fake tach, with fake rpm sounds. THEN, I need some DLC: different exhaust sounds sampled from vehicles like a Ferrari 250, or a Civic with a fart can, or a Ninja motorcycle, or the Jetson’s car, or the Flintstone’s car (feet running), or Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I need choices in what my no-engine car’s exhaust sounds like! Bonus points for a variable interactive clutch. Heavy clutch, light clutch, high engagement point or low, and even the car jerking the driveline when you don’t shift smoothly! And with that, I’d need a flywheel weight setting too. And if on a turbo model car exhaust setting, I’m going to need a boost gauge, as well as BOV sound when you put the clutch pedal in, with an adjustment of 0-100% vent to atmosphere. If the vents could pipe in some burning gasoline and oil scents through the HVAC system, that would be great. If you’re going to try to give me my old ICE car experience, I want the full thing!

[@hughs8447]

Yes! It would be great although thr gasoline smell is overkill.

[@shadow105720]

I can't wait to stall on a test drive for a fancy new electric car.

[@edfx]

You are missing some upsides for gears as being torque/speed limiters. When trying to get unstuck from mud, snow or ice you have much finer control not to dig yourself in. Also in city traffic, when you want fast responding acceleration or deacceleration (engine breaking) you put in lower gear. When you want to cruise and take it easy then you put in higher gear so that even if you push acceleration pedal too much, it will not accelerate faster than you want.

[@davidstewart4570]

Tragic. I'm reminded of those high-end BMWs, M5s, I think, where the exhaust note was "enhanced" by a sound played through the speakers of the ICE system. Quite honestly, when it's come to that, I don't know why guys can't just sit in the seat going, "brummm, brummm" like they did when they were five years old.

[@confusedredditor1660]

exactly, haha

[@miscbits6399]

I think it started with the Aston Martin DB8. You could hear the engine more clearly as it went past than when driving it. On the other hand having the noisemakers IN the cabin means that noxiously loud engines aren't needed anymore....

[@martingagnon4547]

When marketing drives the engineers this is what happens. Very questionnable.

[@tafit84]

I think there is an argument to be made for fake engine sound in EVs. It lets you use one more sense to experience your speed. It connects to something we are used to and therefore unconsciously lets us asses our speed without looking at the display.

[@zbyszanna]

Audible feedback yes, fake engine noises no.

[@blancomusic]

Great analysis ! I would be interested to hear your take on FAKE air vents VS. REAL air vents in cars .

[@guidoguidis]

Once upon a time you making videos driving around made sense. Does it now? Yes it does. Because we loved those videos, and still love these. Thanks for the amazing content!

[@vaughanc4919]

You've hit the nail on the head, all of these EV's are essentially going to be the same thing with a different skin. The only differences will be price and options and luxury items

[@coredaqqer6197]

@@aussie2uGA the entire drivetrain is what differentiates them. Think a civic vs a camry, sure they both feature FWD and a 4 banger, but the characteristics of the engine set them apart, reliability, rpm, induction, etc.

[@phillyphil1513]

@@aussie2uGA Q: What do you find the difference is in new gas cars, just the sound? A: 4 vs 6 vs vs 8 vs 10 vs 12 cylinders. Turbo vs Supercharged vs NA. Auto vs Manual vs Dual Clutch. RWD vs FWD vs AWD. Front Engine vs Mid Engine vs Rear Engine vs Front/Mid Engine.

[@phillyphil1513]

@@aussie2uGA Q: What is the specific difference in experience you have vs electric when behind the wheel? A: unfortunately your limited understanding of vehicle dynamics has left you AT A LOSS at comprehending what i literally got finished spelling out for you, but no worries, this only means you're in the same boat as all the "FSD dreamers". what i outlined are indeed SPECIFICS for those either BORN WITH it or have DEVELOPED (over time) the "sensitivity" to appreciate them, sadly laymen need not apply. re: "I think what people are afraid of is the lack of noise." indeed SOUND is one of the 5 senses given to us by Nature with which we use to evaluate/assess/attend the world. example: a Dog or a Bat would not be able to hunt/feed if they were to suddenly lose their hearing. worse though, i think what young people now lack is SELF-CONFIDENCE in their abilities to operate "power equipment" (and thus they look to cover it over and "twist it" into being something else). 21st Century phone addiction, video game addiction, and all manner of "virtual addiction" has caused an ATROPHY/EROSION in the Human skillset of Millennials, basic skills that History shows were CLEARLY present "in spades" in previous generations of Man for at the last 500-1000 years. these "skills" haven't gone anywhere, no, they are only being FORGOTTEN.

[@alphatripduce]

A lot of home built EVs use manual transmissions they tend to sit between 2nd and 3rd an shift without clutching, (also all audi did with that was badge engineer it)

[@volvo09]

I'd rather have a home built EV... Way more soul than a modern ipad on wheels with an interior as exciting as the inside of an MRI machine.

[@audikid89]

It’s the CVT simulated shifts all over again 🤦‍♂️

[@ewenchan1239]

I LOVE how you're rowing your own WITH the handbrake in the "engaged" position. LOL...LMAO.....

[@Zankaroo]

I am really happy for this, I've been asking why this is not a thing anyways for a while now. I have an old Logitech G27 racing set for my PC that I use for some racing games. And for a while now automatic transmissions have been faster than manuals. Technology is progressing and we can't stop it. But since DCTs use paddle shifters in manual mode, why not put a electronic H-pattern and clutch pedal in there. I wasn't even thinking about EVs. But I guess the idea works for them too. In my version for a ICE with DCT the clutch just enables the shifter's signal through and the DCT then acts like a paddle has been hit, other wise moving the out of a gear puts it in neutral but putting it into another gear won't work unless you push the clutch. No grinding or anything you will just coast. You are saying the idea is pointless and unneeded, but paddle shifters on any form of auto is technically pointless. But if all cars are becoming autos or transmissionless in the case of EVs, I say it does have a point in certain cars. Entertainment. Entertainment is something that is needed by humans. And for a lot of car enthusiast rowing through gears on a curvy country road is entertaining. I thought about it several times, if I had money for it I would pick a project car, grab the DCT out of a wrecked Hyundai Velocter and stick in it the other car then, buy some of the nicer racing sim pedals, H-shifter and wheel and mount it up. Then pay programmer to make it all talk to the right bits to make it all work. I mean if you think about it modern cars are all electronic now. Almost everything is drive by wire. So the only difference between me driving in my simulator and a real car is the road feel. The controls are all effectively the same, I push button or move a sensor here, an actuator moves and does something else where in the car.

[@frjhracing]

Real gears on an EV make sense as to reduce the need for high frequency drivers delivering peak power (very tasking on these components). Aim the gear ratios right where peak power is achieved and torque starts to drop. However, new designs in stators and other motor modifications is making driving the motors @ high rpm easier/more reliable. Though you can't escape back EMF among other challenges with high RPM electric motors.

[@bobkitchin8346]

I think you touched on the magic words "Back EMF" (Back Electromotive Force). In electric motors, torque is proportional to current. But the more rapidly a motor turns, a proportionally higher the input voltage is needed to overcome the Back EMF just to maintain the same current and torque. And we're not talking about small voltages either, but several hundred or even thousand volts. Building variable high voltage supplies is not cheap or easy. They require high voltage FET's or IGBT's, current and voltage sensors and control systems. Also there's a hit in reliability as well. Not to mention potential insulation breakdown and arching in the brushless motor windings. Second, you have to remember that electric motors turn into generators when braking. So the high voltage supply has to be able to reduce the back EMF into a lower voltage that the battery can handle. Third, there's the infamous chip shortage. Using more common lower voltage components makes good business sense. So sticking a multispeed transmission in to reduce the back EMF isn't a silly as it may sound. Whether it needs to be a manual is a different question.

[@Toastmaster_5000]

As someone who is building a 4-speed manual EV, here's what I still can't wrap my head around: Why don't manufacturers just use lower-torque higher-RPM motors and pair them with a manual transmission? I'm _sure_ this is a lot cheaper to make. It allows you to better regulate regen braking. It allows you to _genuinely_ shift gears. It probably would weigh a lot less. You can achieve higher top speeds without sacrificing acceleration. The less work the motor has to do to accelerate, the fewer amps it draws, so a transmission could potentially extend your range, at least in city driving. In my case, there is no purpose of a clutch, but the 3rd pedal is used to disengage regen braking, so you can more easily shift gears. Meanwhile, change the shape of the gears so they make more noise, and you don't have to pump fake noise into the cabin.

[@Henry-qt3py]

I doubt it would weigh less. Electric motors are already very light. Adding complexity to the transmission adds weight and inefficiencies. Best case you might get an equal trade off...

[@BC107BP]

This approach is incompatible with the stop-start feature of the latest adaptive cruise control systems.

[@samfedorka5629]

Loud gears are less efficient, so you may have to spend more engineering effort on transmission cooling and your MPG will suffer. Not worth it, imo. Plus not everyone likes a whiny gearbox like what racecars have.

[@Toastmaster_5000]

@@Henry-qt3py I guess it depends what car you're looking at because some motors are heavy enough to not be lifted by a person, while others can weigh less than a typical transmission. Bear in mind that you might only need 3 speeds, which would make the transmission pretty light.

[@Toastmaster_5000]

@@samfedorka5629 I thought the loud whiny gearboxes were used in race cars because they were more efficient?

[@Trag1cMag1c]

Could a case be made that a relatively weak electric engine could benefit from a true manual transmission?

[@DirtyDan77]

That sounds like it makes sense to me, but I'm not an engineer. But if it were true, weak motors are cheap so it could be a way to make a cheaper EV. Or how about that front wheel drive electric Chevy spark that had to automatically limit how much torque it gave you to maintain traction? Controlling that torque manually instead could be interesting.

[@M_Andras]

I don't think so, because the torque curve is very flat, you don't have any interval where it would be better to keep the RPM in order to have some significant power. And even if it would benefit from a transmission, it would be easier and simplier to make a slightly more powerful motor than adding a complex device to the car just to compensate the weak motor.

[@martinsvensson6884]

@@M_Andras The weaker the motor the more you will gain with a gearbox. The flatter torque curve might make it enough with 3 gears instead of 7 though.

[@martinsvensson6884]

@@DirtyDan77 Its cheaper to increase motor size than adding a gearbox. At least up to a point.

[@M_Andras]

@@martinsvensson6884 The torque curve is so flat that you have almost the same torque at 1000 RPM like you have at 10000 RPM. So what is the benefit to drop the RPM if you can just further increase the RPM? Of course there are noise and frictional loss but none of that are significant.

[@rickhayner2514]

Thanks for a very honest review and I could not agree with you more! At the beginning I was afraid that you, with your engineering practicality, were going to tell everyone that they should ignore romance and throw out all their candles. After all we have electric light bulbs now. But in the end you you admitted that you, as with all humans, are not all that practical when it comes to what we like. Keep it up!

[@Nabeelco]

VW does not use the speakers in the soundsystem to make the engine noise. They use a linear actuator that's mounted to the firewall below the windshield to not only generate sound, but also vibration. As fake engine noise goes, it's actually really well done because it almost perfectly matches what your engine is doing, noise wise.

[@xnopyt13]

I always think someone should make an EV that can simulate different engines’ sounds and power curves, so you can drive a mustang one day and a type r the next day.

[@10cent_not50]

What?!

[@hrleif8994]

Yes yes YES.!

[@paulklp8262]

The Mercedes EQE can do it.

[@Die_Kvar]

So technically, the engine wouldn't stall. What if I put it in 6th and just use it as is? Also, when you need to accelerate to pass, you'd just be better off with the higher gears instead of downshifting? As much as I would love to keep the manual transmission experience in an era of all-electrics, this sounds like quite a change from the original.

[@gibble75310]

he didn't mention that it'll simulate stalls and all that

[@Jack-qn4vt]

You can't stall an electric motor

[@Die_Kvar]

@@Jack-qn4vt which is what I said. It wouldn't stall. So I wonder if you can just put it in 6th and use it like a regular EV. That's what I was wondering. Will rephrase it tho as I see why it's confusing.

[@Jack-qn4vt]

@@Die_Kvar EV's use a low gear ratio hence why they generally only have one gear, sometimes 2. So yeah imagining like they're in top gear is right way to think about it.

[@MrRedstoner]

@@Jack-qn4vt No, but you can make the electronics pretend you did stall

[@smallk6453]

Great review and good on Toyota for "keeping it real". This provides fun and allows drivers exercise real driving skills and involvement which a real car manufacturers should do. Can you drive a "manual"? No more excuses.

[@Epilon]

There are interesting ways the idea could be implemented on EVs that aren't simply power limiting. On hybrids one thing that was done with manual mode wasn't just to simulate gear switching, but simulate it as if it was a bigger engine, by both increasing the normal power available to the system, and also altering the pedal maps. There is usually a distinction between short term and long term power limits, and the driver doesn't always have full access to them depending on the pedal input and speed. There could be something done to increase the short term power of the system for the simulated lower gears. Not sure how well it would work, but it would be interesting to see attempted at.

[@Doncold316]

How long till we have cars that can simulate different types of cars' powerband and engine noise? muslce car, race car, old school turbo etc

[@ocardaugh]

I missed the memo about the mandatory switchover from logic-based thinking to feelings-based thinking. What's next? Are we all going to smile and follow the farmer into the shed when he says baa-ram-ewe because it just feels right? Good video, though. Very informative.

[@phillyphil1513]

Q: What's next? Are we all going to smile and follow the farmer into the shed when he says baa-ram-ewe because it just feels right? A: probably. unfortunately the deeper issue in play is that IQ's in society have DROPPED across the board by 100 points in the past 50 years (aw crap). yeah, something little understood is that both "RE-gressions" and "PRO-gressions" occur in History. of course the psychology of fantasy/optimism causes us to focus our attention ONLY on "progress". the whole of the Planet Earth going through this RIGHT NOW in regards to the Global Pandemic and the outbreak of War (WW3?) in Europe and their effects on the supply chain (ie, chips, raw materials for batteries, old school gas, etc).

[@hamza4hameed]

Can having multiple gear transmission help EVs achieve a higher efficiency especially at highway speeds?

[@custommotor]

Not really. Once you start adding gears you have drive train losses. A ICE car for example has between 15-35% drive train loss from what I have seen on dynos. Even if it was 15% that is a lot of loss for a ev. Lower motor speeds might be good, but a second smaller motor to maintain highway speeds would probably be the better option. Also allows AWD.

[@Appletank8]

Most EVs with a front and rear motor have a weaker front motor for that purpose.

[@paulklp8262]

Taycan does it already.

[@IR-xy3ij]

Yes, the increase is significant. In fact almost all electric "race" cars (more like time attack cars since batteries have abysmal cooling and energy density) have multi-speed sequential manual transmissions.

[@kamX-rz4uy]

Having paddle shifters and set ratio points is helpful even with CVTs, especially for hills. During normal acceleration having fake shifts isn't necessary although it helps reduce the whine and rubber band effect in some cars. In Subarus if you move the shifter to manual mode to use the paddles it puts it in a sport mode that allows for a greater rev range and is less likely to override the driver. Using the paddles while in D is meant to be temporary and the car will quickly go back to doing whatever it thinks is best. In sport mode it's more spirited driving and you can accelerate faster except for full throttle. In that case leave it in drive and let the car do max acceleration.

[@-nightraider-1169]

That’s how my car works and it is a CVT’s. I actually don’t mind the fake shifts, I think it makes the driving feel more natural and less annoying. I’ve driven CVT cars that don’t simulate shifting and just wine at a a constant rpm. It’s more efficient but makes driving feel so mundane and boring. I can’t stand that constant note. In fact my car you can definitely feel it “shift” when you drive sort of a aggressively. It’s kind of entertaining how noticeable it is sometimes. Especially under WOT

[@jasepoag8930]

"I would really enjoy it, even though I know it's fake. I would have a good time messing around with it." This isn't true for me for fake boobs, and wouldn't be true for me for fake manuals. lol

[@manoman0]

Amazing channel still. More info than you get in common TV in the same amount of time.

[@jasonhooey5677]

I laughed tooo hard over the cvt transmission being given gear ratios. Bro, what was the point of these unreliable cvt transmissions? Oh wait, they sell 2 or 3 transmissions per car instead of maybe .5 or 1 per car. I see what they did there

[@F103Pro10S]

And what about using a real multi gear transmission? You could have more torque from the start on, the Motor needs a lot less amps to get the car moving, so you can have a smaller battery without losing too much range. Especially in cities, where BEV might be overtaking soon, you have to start and stop so often. So why cant they have multiple gearing, to save a lot of energy from a stand still? Is it just a cost thing? I run RC Cars since I am 6 years old, and already 20 years ago I knew, brushless motors are the future. But I changed the gearing every time I went to a different racetrack, because there is no point in having one too long gear ration, that wastes a lot of energy and reduces acceleration. And this rc car had peak power of almost 1kw and weighed only 1,5kg. So in a real car which is really heavy, you should have much more of an advantage of a low gearing to start with and a higher gearing to get to highway speeds. Yes, you can make the electric motor turn faster with higher voltage or different stator winding, but then you also loose torque and increase the amp draw under acceleration, which makes you need a bigger battery, makes the car heavier, so you need a bigger battery again, due to more weight you now need a bigger motor and so on. Its just all so much of a waste. I am absolutely sure that any electric car would be improved with a real multi gear (or cvt, but they often cant handle so much torque) transmission and you can safe on ressources and have the same acceleration and top speed but dont need as much energy to get from point a to point b. Of course, if you start the car, get on the highway, get off the highway and you are in the destination, a multi gear transmission wouldnt help. But realisticly you have to stop and start again really often, especially in cities where BEV should be most useful, and in stop and go it would be mor eefficient with multiple gears. It could be automatic for efficiency sake, or manual for driving pleasure, but it has to have multiple ratios. Not 6 or 10 or so, just maybe 3 or 4. When the E-Bike trend started, all these chinese conversions had a electric motor in the hub of the front wheel. That worked well when you were riding on straight roads with just light inclines, but when it should help you from a standstill, they had no power, and when it goes up a steep moiuntain, they drained the battery really fast, because the gearing was too tall. If you shop for E-Bikes now, most of the better ones have the motor mounted where the pedals are, so it can take advantage of the different gearings of the chain drive. And a bicycle with one person on it is very much lighter than any car, so why dont have electric cars multiple gears? I also know, that some formula E teams testet different transmission setups. I understand that they now use only one gear, because a formule E car has to start once, and then drives without stopping till the battery is drained. But thats not realistic for a car driven on the road, so there it should make sense. A transmission with lets say 3 gears might weigh 20kg more than a one gear transmission, but you could surely save that weight on the battery then, and efficiency on high speeds cant be much worse because there are two other gear sets rotating in the transmission housing, in real world driving the efficiency improvement from a stand still should easily equalize that.

[@F103Pro10S]

@Alfred Wedmore yes I have Heard of some conversions, but I am talking about mass produced cars. I dont understand why NO manufacturer uses a Transmission with some gears besides Audi etron/taycan, which just uses it for more crazy acceleration and only in the rear axle... Cars like a Renault zoe or Nissan leaf should have a Transmission, they would accelerate better and have better Range when driving in City traffic...

[@F103Pro10S]

@Alfred Wedmore but they can use smaller Motors and Batterie, that should compensate the price difference....

[@bobbysauer7826]

audi out here lookin like a nissan

[@thelagitbaker8673]

ive been asking this question since evs came out. thanks for the simulated torque and gearing explanation

[@sukocoimam4519]

its have good reason .. maintaining RPM/speed when you want blip the pedal or adding more/less pedal input, so less pedal movement .. its so uncomforted to keep modulating pedal more and less related to speed .. study case, and you know the limit RPM/Speed when you on gear, specially on mountain road .. without gear or unlimited power on your pedal then you can woke up on hospital or worse ... you got the point

[@polarbear3427]

So basically, this could evolve into a new trend of introducing new mechanical problems, which totally destroy the advantage of EVs: less complexity, so lower maintenance costs and trouble. Audi must have thought: how can we let this car go broke at a certain point, so people will buy a new one in ten years or so, and how can we charge our clients for maintenance as much as possible. After all that has always been a business model. I think this is a perverted development.

[@falxonPSN]

I mean that's literally how German automakers think. "How can we make the best possible driving experience now, even if the car becomes an unrepairable money pit in 5 years?"

[@juzoli]

This idea will probably fail. But this only requires some computer code to be implemented, so why not try if there is a market for it? It’s cheap to build, they don’t take much risk.

[@damelo_2173]

This is actually the only “fake” thing I’d actively look for when buying an EV, no matter if it reduces range a bit (although it may increase range as the motor isn’t forced to run at full torque, but I could be wrong). Just gimme that 3rd pedal and a stick shifter, I’ll be happy to pretend it’s a real manual.

[@Mobile_Dom]

the only reason i think the toyota thing makes sense if for an interim learner car thing, at least here in the UK most people still learn to drive manual, if you can learn to drive a manual with a clutch, gearing stalling etc with no harm to the actual vehicle and it still be electric, that's fantastic, but that would only be an interim thing, for now even if new cars are going to be EV only in 5-10 years, there is still going to be decades worth of manual ICE cars out there and people will still buy second hand for multitude of reasons.

[@phillyphil1513]

re: "there is still going to be decades worth of manual ICE cars out there..." "ICE ICE BABY" (Bowie/Queen guitar riff)

[@anthellis]

Been watching you for 4 years. This is my favorite episode. Ha.

[@ish233]

This answers my question I had a year or two ago. The answer is why go through all the trouble in making a shifting gear not needing gear shifting for torque control. I don't think gas will be gone completely, but enough to lessen the amount of burn by the every day individual driver, but maybe there is a way to combo less battery for torque control need which then powers another element to both energize battery, maybe it works if transmission is needing torque co trol to reenergize, like say in gear shifting, is an energy reenergize mode.

[@Ralph2]

Right from the first EV's I said, 'When they build an EV that can convince me I'm driving a three pedal manual ICE, I'm in.' Don't care it's not logical. Don't care it's not as quick. I want to get in, use a drive sim style screen to select the car I want to drive today. Fiat 500? Ford GT40? The software, the seat vibrator and the sound system do the rest. That software already exists, just needs someone to glue the two worlds together.

[@InformatrIIcks]

After a "real car nerd" told me that EV are soulless, I was thinking that we could put any car on a dyno, map it's engine, and have the EV mimic how the ICE feel, bringing basically any "soul" in a single car ... That could be fun!

[@alext7952]

That would be gay

[@takiua2264]

@@alext7952 thank you.

[@InformatrIIcks]

@@alext7952 thanks for your constructive criticism.

[@gi70st]

@@alext7952 I concur.

[@CommanderCodey]

Seems counter intuitive to me. A lot of people want an EV because it is quieter lol.

[@EngineeringExplained]

Haha, that's how I felt! At least allow the option inside the cabin to not hear it.

[@jsmariani4180]

But they are not real Americans.

[@Ren_1106]

Quiet means dangerous if you don't hear anything at all.

[@davidfstanford]

Yeah communists! Lol

[@phillyphil1513]

people (duped by a psychology of Confirmation Bias) bragging about how quiet EV's are conspicuously overlook that modern ICE (and ironically even old ICE) are so good in terms of NVH after all these decades of development, that one is often hard pressed to tell if they're even RUNNING once warmed up. yeah, those who've been paying attention to the Auto Industry for the past 30+ years know this is PRECISELY what Toyota/Lexus was on about when the LS400 first arrived on the scene way back in 1989. unfortunately those "baby young to the world" will have no knowledge/awareness of all their famous TV commercials.

[@iandavidson99]

I posted this same comment a couple of years ago.... With electronic speed controllers you can precisely configure the motor's torque at any RPM, meaning you could at a touch of a button have your Tesla motor emulate the power/torque characteristics of ANY internal combustion motor. e.g. Today I want my car to feel like a Honda VTEC and tomorrow a Chevy V8. Software on a fake manual transmission could fake the gear ratios too

[@joshuanicolai4776]

I one saw a cvt at a junkyard that someone had opened and it what really cool to see the inside

[@JKDJack]

I've been saying this for years they need to make a electric car that can sound and act like a manual sports car. Literally just take simulator logic and apply it to a electric car it should work fine. You also get to Drive whatever engine swap you want 😁

[@ODST_Republic]

Noise through speakers are terrible, itll have no real soul. I rather have a silent electric car then a fake noise that mimics an engine

[@pleasedontwatchthese9593]

@@ODST_Republic I mean video games are even more fake and people buy them. I can see this being a thing

[@ODST_Republic]

@PleaseDontWatchThese yeah, but there's a bit of difference, one costs $60 or less and the other costs a couple of thousands. You expect one to be better than the other.

[@ItsTheNada]

I’d rather just play sim racing games if it’s all gonna be fake anyway.

[@Frosty-cg8xf]

Ford did an electric s550 mustang with a six speed manual. It was a one-off concept used for show but maybe someday it will be suitable for mass market. Personally if I'm forced to choice between engine noise and three pedals, I'm taking the stick shift.

[@interc3pti0n38]

Good topic to speak on. Reminded me of this video after watching the unveil of the new Koenigsegg CC850.

[@XsubliminalinsanityX]

I knew this was recorded on WA SR-14, even before the shot of the dam gave it away! ;) Gotta love the PNW, and one of its great majestic sights, the Columbia River Gorge!

[@broadcastiing]

Hello Jason, in your video about fake manual transmission there is a small misconception. The Porsche taycan has different engines then the Audi E-tron GT. The Porsche has synchronous engines and the Audi Asynchronous engines.

[@ZBS2011]

I worked at Electra meccanica when the Solo was first going on the road and suggested the use of a CVT to help battery life by decreasing draw through mechanical gear reduction. They weren't accepting of my thought process, but they also didn't get the 100 miles per charge as advertised either

[@natebaker8896]

I think you nailed it when you said you as a consumer would like the manual electric car. I’m sure companies wouldn’t do fake gears in CVTs unless they thought doing so would sell more cars.

[@MarioDallaRiva]

Fake is the new Real it seems… Jason, nice to hear Corey, the president of Munro & Assoc. mention your channel and your whiteboard engineering videos in the same sentence as the CEO of Lucid and his latest “whiteboarding” video on battery technology. Bravo to you!! 👏🏻👏🏻

[@justgonnastay]

We have a 2012 Outback with the CVT. This was before they started putting fake shift points in. We've had it for something like 7 years and I still think it feels kinda weird. Floor it, and it jumps to 5500rpm and just stays there while you keep gaining speed. Plus, if you are driving in the twisties, the throttle response feels like you are piloting an air boat. But it has a manual mode with paddle shifters to overcome that.

[@maxhamilius539]

I think your explanation with perception is quite on point. Take for example Volkswagen customers in general. Regardless of any negative expert review, somehow they always seem to be drawn back to that brand. In Europe most of the customers don't even know that Audi, Porsche, Skoda, Seat, etc. are all Volkswagen cars with mostly the same quality standards and parts, but very different price tags.