Are Heat Pumps Any Good?

[@B0jangle5]

"The neighbour is out talking to his heat pump again"

[@UpsideDownFork]

😂 are you my neighbour?

[@StepDub]

And he thinks a spanner is a microphone.😊

[@Chappers.Gaming]

My neighbor is being nosey again 😂

[@MacCraig8]

You couldn't have got the comedic timing on the dog when you asked the heat pump if you tried 😂

[@JonathanTracey]

Good info, loved the idea of whispering so everyone could hear how “Loud” the heat pump really is. More info on how you tweaked the curve would be good

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@JonathanTracey kzbin.info/www/bejne/gaSYZnufZ7RrZ6s You'll have to adapt the exact controls for your Daikin but the principles are the same for both. 👍

[@peterbruch8719]

Haha, very funny. It'll be interesting to see how many people take it seriously. After all, what a silly man using a spanner as a microphone, of course we won't be able to hear anything 🤦🙄

[@Goodchappy]

Thanks for all your videos. It's so refreshing to gets the facts and actual experiences rather than the channels bursting at the seams with FUD.

[@chrisp7839]

Both my dogs started barking when that dog barked on the video. Not until I had let them out the front door were they satisfied the danger had gone away

[@rabhaw2327]

I got a new combi boiler for a 4 bedroom Bungalow and it only cost £1400 to buy and install and it is brilliant

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks!

[@waynecartwright-js8tw]

how old was your previous one ?

[@chrisp7839]

I’ve just been quoted £3200 for a heat pump from Octopus, including all necessary radiator upgrades, and a new hot water cylinder. So only £1800 more than yours. If the savings are as suggested, payback would be about 4 years.

[@Petrolhead912]

I have a Mitsubishi heat pump , been installed almost 4 years. When the weather is cold the heat from it is as good as useless.

[@waynecartwright-js8tw]

@@Petrolhead912 Our work Toshiba is 7 years old and is great , saving us a fortune over the storage heaters it replaced.

[@ByJimineeItsBREXIT-z2k]

But without the govt grant, it would be unaffordable. And it is not govt money,...it comes from our taxes...which should be used for pensioner fuel allowance and cancer treatment/operations.... and many other vital spending matters.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Cool, we should let the kids freeze and starve though, shouldn't we? Check out the figures of children Vs pensioners living in poverty. Anyway, when did this become a debate about taxes and the use of those taxes. The BUS grant isn't even a footnote in the government's overall budget. Barely a speck compared to the domestic oil and gas industry subsidies and peanuts compared to the emissions fines if we don't crack on and meet targets. The reason heat pumps are only marginally more affordable to run in this country compared to our European neighbours is due to our spark gap. Us people with large electricity bills are the ones now subsidising those gas consumers. Once that spark gap closes, gas prices will increase and electricity will decrease, making the switch a no brainer. Finally, I've paid way more than my fair share of tax for the last 22 years and because of means testing I've never been eligible for a single penny of government assistance. Why should pensioners get any more say in how taxes are spent than I do? Thanks for making this into part of the culture wars. Many people utilising the BUS grant pay more tax in one year than the £7.5k they receive back. Sorry, you clearly hit a nerve...

[@ByJimineeItsBREXIT-z2k]

@@UpsideDownFork If children are in ''poverty'' then that is the fault of the parents, too often a single mother. The latter seemingly unable to put 15p's worth of breakfast cereal into their child's tummies before they set off for school. Do not blame a thing called ''society''. Pre-1997, Blair pledged to tackle ''poverty'' but we ended up with Benefits Britain and colossal welfare dependency,...brilliantly exemplified by Channel 4's Shameless TV series at that time. Evil Blair must have hated it.

[@ByJimineeItsBREXIT-z2k]

@@UpsideDownFork Without subsidies, no-one would ever buy these monstrosities. They are a solution to a problem that does not exist. Climate alarmists are forever trying to put the willies up us. Most of us rightly treat them with the contempt they richly deserve.

[@_Dougaldog]

@@ByJimineeItsBREXIT-z2k Oh deary me, you're taking a fictitious comedy TV series as evidence to back up your politics ? Perhaps you support the Scottish government who will be restoring Winter fuel payments to pensioners next winter, as the process has just been devolved to them ? As an aside, most UK benefits are paid to low salary workers; essentially taxpayers funding profits of companies that give little value to their employees.

[@tonycollyweston6182]

The pensioners when they were working should have spent their money wisely and not on stupid holidays fags or booze but providing for their futures.If they ate well and avoided bad health habits they would have reduced their risk of cancer. subsidising installation of low carbon technology is an investment not consumption and gives a return for humanity. The old are not worth the effort, I should know Ian 70.

[@richsmart321]

The installers who came to my house wanted 1/3rd of garage to install pipes and various tanks etc. They also werent keen to fit the unit outside by our boundary fence with neighbours. They couldn't give me any guarantees that our house would be warmer/cooler. Finally they said they needed to fit much wider radiators and new pipework (that had been laid in 2012).

[@UpsideDownFork]

Always worth getting multiple quotes for significant building work like that.

[@PersonaNonGrata595]

Annual servicing cost difference? Expected replacement parts difference? Life expectancy difference? These costs are always left out.

[@tarbat]

​@@JP-wo4icAnd most home emergency insurance exclude heat pumps.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Servicing? Average £50-100 more than gas boiler. Deduct £109 for annual gas standing charge and we're even. Plenty of people claiming that a well maintained ASHP will outlast a well maintained boiler by 5-10 years easily, time will tell on that one.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@JP-wo4ic supply and demand I guess. Like you say, will probably self rectify in time. Personally I will have it serviced to retain warranty and then I'll do it myself.

[@farab4391]

@@UpsideDownForkyou can only take the gas standing charge into account if you’re replacing everything in your house that uses gas. I’ve got a gas fire and gas hob as well, so replacing or at least removing in the case of the fire, will be another few grand. Plus I’ll lose the backup source of heat when the HP breaks down. It’s never straight forward.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@farab4391 I'm not sure if you are trolling or not. Induction hobs are the way forward. Easy to cook on, easy to clean, way more efficient and not polluting the air in your home. If you are concerned about a backup heat source, you can have immersion elements fitted to a heat pump for a worst case scenario. I'll let you know in 10 years time if we could have used one.

[@RS.Outdoors]

Don't have the space in my house for hot water cylinder and nigh on impossible to run the extra associated pipework, However I do have 3.6kw solar and 15kw battery setup. Also have new Vaillant Ecotec 826 Combi with external weather sensor. My electricity export tariff for excess solar generated will pay for my gas bill through winter. Based on this and even if I could install a heat pump at the prices I was quoted for my situation it would likely take me about 30 years to break even. By that time I will be pushing up daisy's :)

[@MentalLentil-ev9jr]

The break even will come down significantly when we get more renewables on the grid, as electricity prices will drop relative to gas. Also, the gas main will be shut off at some point, so a heat pump will need to be fitted then, better to get it while we have the BUS grant. However, the main difference is the environment, fitting a heat pump will do far more for the environment (far more) than anything you can do with solar panels etc. If your only consideration is money then it's a more difficult decision, but if you care about the environment then it's a no-brainer.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I appreciate not everyone has the ideal situation like I do.

[@jeffgraham6387]

@@MentalLentil-ev9jr ....I can't imagine the gas main ever being turned off in this century....if it's good enough for generating electricity it's good enough for home heating....who is going to pay for heat pump installation for the 2.3 million out of work and not seeking work brigade, not to mention all the pensioners with little savings and all the social housing tenants, don't think the local authorities have the money and according to Starmer and Co the country has no spare money....I have solar and a battery and will soon be buying an EV but I shall stick to the instant and controllable heat from my gas boiler.

[@MentalLentil-ev9jr]

@@jeffgraham6387 We must turn off the gas supply, continually using a fossil fuel like gas for heating condemns future generations. When the grid is running entirely off of renewables and nuclear then electricity will become comparable in price to gas. Heat pumps even just directly replacing boilers with a heat pump and running at a high temperature will be much cheaper than gas, it's only the way gas prices are kept artificially low and electricity artificially high that make gas boilers even remotely viable. Solar and battery are a pretty pathetic way to help lower carbon compared to heat pumps, not totally useless (I have solar and will get battery) but a small advance and not enough. They are however a relatively easy way to save money with so a good investment if money is your main object, I'd rather be able to look my grandchildren in the eye.

[@_Dougaldog]

@@jeffgraham6387 "I can't imagine the gas main ever being turned off in this century" ===== There will come a point when it becomes unaffordable with UK currently importing almost half its gas from Norway, and UK fields shutting down as they run dry.

[@charlesgknight]

It’s a different question for someone who doesn’t play around with the settings and has no idea how to e.g. the average consumer. “is a heat pump any good” has a different answer for those depending on what happens depending on a range of complex factors. I’m (broadly) happy with mine but the savings are marginal at best if there will be any and it’s been a lot of hassle along the way.

[@ChidleyEngineering]

That's disappointing. Sounds like the design, the installation or the commissioning wasn't great.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I have to agree that the controls have a lot of room for improvement.

[@charlesgknight]

@@ChidleyEngineeringsadly I cannot post pictures as my *original* install would blow your mind.

[@splesticer]

The current gen of Vaillant software, while capable, is pretty noddy. With machine learning and better design it could be constantly tweaking and optimising itself in the background. That would take some pressure off installers to get it right first time, and off homeowners trying to wrap their head around the science. Some of the heat pump start ups eg. AIRA seem to be promising things like this. No idea whether it's actually true or whether it's just AI marketing guff (these days everyone seems to be slapping an AI sticker on anything in the hope it will help sell it). It would be very cool if Vaillant came out with some new controls that utilised cloud-based collective learning to help gather usage data and improve future designs and efficiency... just like self driving cars. MyVaillant Connect seems to hint that might be the way they're going...

[@stuartrich4574]

This is the trouble, people are promised a dream and I would imagine too many installers with little knowledge. I have looked at solar and just flicked onto heat pumps and I can't get out of my head is my energy bill is £60 per month, there are a lot of £60's in the cost of installation.

[@MrMannakin]

The running cost is only slightly better than a modern gas boiler as gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity. Until that changes the uptake of heat pumps will be low.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Agreed. The spark gap will close. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[@AndrewFedyszak]

Another rubbish video about heat pumps. Reality is that capital expenditure to buy heat pump is many times higher than buying equivalent boiler. This guy quotes about cost of boiler for his house are just blatant lies. Even in London you can get gas boiler installed for £3k. How does he think his heat pump subsidy is financed? By putting surcharges on people with gas boilers, so some parasites like him can virtue signal. I have no problem with people choosing whatever technology they want. But without expecting the rest of society, many much poorer than green idiots, to subsidise their life choices. Heat pumps are the same con as electric cars. If you exclude 75% tax on petrol, EV are more expensive to run even charged at home. If you charged them on the street at 80p kwh, there are at least 3 times more expensive to run. Soon reality of green lies will be obvious to most people, apart from woke clowns with degrees in gender studies.

[@tarbat]

@@UpsideDownFork Will the spark gap ever close? And why? Surely as electricity demand increases and gas demand decreases, market forces will make gas cheaper and electricity more costly. Until the Government move the Green Levy to gas instead of electricity, and that's not going to happen anytime soon, I predict the spark gap will increase. After all, it has increased from 3.2 to 4.1 in the 2 years since Q4 2022. And in that time our electricity has increased to 100% wind and hydro, but the spark gap continues to increase.

[@terrygreensill7773]

@MrMannakin I see going off grid for gas and saving the standing charge a win.

[@terrygreensill7773]

But I guess you also need electric oven and hob which I do.

[@mattundercoat]

It’s great to see a fairly bog standard installation from a supplier like British Gas performing so well. Much as I enjoy seeing beautifully designed and executed systems running underfloor heating on an open loop, the majority of installations will be more like yours. It shows that you can have hydraulic separation and still have a SCOP of 4 plus.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks! That's what I'm aiming for here. Showing that you don't need to remortgage your house to get a great heating system!

[@radfoo]

Agree. The more research and videos I watch I've realised you need a valiant heat pump (possibly a viesmann too) and a bog standard install will deliver a decent scop.

[@stevechelt1]

I think it all depends on your individual situation. We had our 30 year old boiler replaced 2 years ago with a very efficient Worcester Bosch condensing boiler, it was an easy install in the same place as the old boiler, also we had extra pipework and extra radiator fitted, plus a new 3-way valve next to the pump and new controller. All this cost £2700 and has resulted in about a 20% reduction in gas use. Servicing is £60 annually. Our house is a 60 year old 4 bed semi so not as well insulated as a modern place. Having had this upgrade not long ago it would not make sense to rip it out and spend a bunch more for at least several years.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I appreciate that not everyone will have an ideal situation like mine unfortunately.

[@ChidleyEngineering]

I've just changed over to a heat pump from a relatively modern combi. The benefits are that the house is warmer, quieter, I'm paying much less annually and it will pay for itself eventually. But it is a large cash outlay and I'd recommend an upgrade when changing a boiler or some other major renovation work. To get the benefits you will probably need to change many radiators, perhaps some pipework and need to find space outside for "boiler". This can be disruptive.

[@stevechelt1]

@@ChidleyEngineering I agree. We would also need 4 or 5 rads changing as they are rather old inefficient types.

[@stevechelt1]

@@JP-wo4ic Weather compensation is something to look into next, but can I get it for my Worcester Bosch boiler?

[@ChidleyEngineering]

@@JP-wo4ic Definitely upgrade to better controls, including weather compensation. Worth it whatever heat source you use.

[@nigelhamilton-brown1918]

My main worry is whether I need to replace all of the internal pipework - from what I can see it is 15mm and it runs in ceilings and floors. I don't mind replacing all of the rads with double panels, but would hate to have the floors lifted and ceilings pulled down.

[@UpsideDownFork]

If you have 15mm pipework to the rads, it is unlikely to need replacing.

[@nickymurray1777]

We run a firewood business and several of our customers have gone down the air source heat pump. What we have noticed is they still buy the same amount of firewood of us. They say it’s just not warm enough were they sit.

[@UpsideDownFork]

O K

[@BenIsInSweden]

If they're sitting outside, then there's your problem.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@BenIsInSweden 🤣

[@75mattpar]

This would of course be the thing a firewood seller would say 😂

[@timballam3675]

@@UpsideDownFork Because they want to kill themselves and their neighbours?

[@differenttan7366]

I need to look at these smart tariffs, my new heat pump is doing better than my old gas system but the prices shown here are much cheaper than both. Owning an older house , I found drafts are a killer for heat pump systems the slower output can’t keep up. I hunted down all the heat loss points around pipes, vents doors and windows and the difference to comfort has been significant. Underfloor heating in one room is my next experiment replacing my last old radiator.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Wise advice on the draughts. Which tariff are you on? Octopus Cosy or Agile are the ones to look at generally for heat pumps. If you have an EV then this changes the dynamic and you may want to weigh up how many kWh you consume for EV vs HP.

[@jacquelinebrunder2384]

I've had air/air heat pumps in two homes and they are great provided the only energy source you have is electricity but if you have access to mains gas don't even think about a heat pump as they let you down when you most need them as the temperature falls below around 5 DegC. At that temperature they have to start defrosting the external heat exchanger and the efficiency plummets along with the heat they can pick up. My brother has a super-efficient oversized Daiken unit installed in a super insulated home and even that struggles to keep the place warm so he uses a wood stove to top up the heat levels. Maybe in drier climates they can work but in the w damp British climate the defrosting effort they have to go through kills their efficiency stone dead just when you need it to be efficient.

[@UpsideDownFork]

My COP remains around 3 on those cold days when defrost cycles are required. I shared a lot of data around this last winter which you can find on the channel. Correct sizing is very important. Air to air heat pumps do not tend to be properly calculated in the same way that air to water heat pumps are with proper room by room heat loss calculations. But the real reason that air to air heat pumps tend to not work as well in the colder weather is how you are running the system. They have to be on low and slow when the weather gets cold. I can only surmise that your brother also has a sizing or operating issue. Low and slow is the key.

[@QEngineering]

I live in Canada and have a heat pump installed, long story short there are around 2 months over the year when it is too cold to run the unit. However, in the remaining 10 months the heat pump saves me $350-$500 in propane. In the spring and fall, the heat pump can provide my heating needs. It's a small unit in a small single floor century homes so it only cost me $2000 to install. I am on year 5 now, and last year the unit payed for itself. It's a great auxiliary however, on those cold -50C Canadian nights it really can't do anything.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thank you for sharing! Great to hear about your experience in Canada.

[@darrylfryatt]

Great video. Thanks for all your videos. I've learnt lots from you. Hopefully getting my heat pump installed very soon.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Good luck!

[@chrisnotley4563]

I recently had a replacement LPG gas boiler installed. During the quote process 3 Bosch approved installers visited and I took the opportunity to ask their opinions of air source heat pumps as our home has under floor heating downstairs. Every installer said the same, don’t go there. One even told me he recently removed 3 heat pumps due to their excessive high running costs. I also looked at ground source but the installation costs were prohibitive in terms of long payback time.

[@UpsideDownFork]

They have vested interests in selling gas boilers. It's like asking a Ford dealer what they think about Vauxhalls. Removing heat pumps is illegal. Don't touch an installer who is not working to simple building regulations. There are many good boiler fitters out there, but there are also a huge majority of them that don't have a clue about heat pumps or even low temperature heating design. They stick to what's in their comfort zone and aren't interested in upskilling.

[@chrisnotley4563]

@ I take your point but in my case this was not the case. Bosch offers air source heat pumps and their agents are fully trained to evaluate, quote and install them as was the case with their 3 local agent distributors who quoted me.

[@jeanh9641]

I have had my heat pump since September 2024. Installation week was a challenge because I had 12 new radiators fitted and nearly every room in the house was affected BUT it was worth it. I am so impressed with it. The whole house has a full through warmth. It has completely surpassed my expectations and it is working out cheaper than my gas boiler. It cost £2900 + BUS grant. What is not to like.

[@UpsideDownFork]

This is what we need to share with others! Thanks for commenting.

[@jogon331]

If you live in a 10th floor flat explain frauditor

[@BrianSmith-ow9gy]

And redecoration costs? In the days when houses were heated by coal fires or stand alone gas and electric heaters many householders chose to install central heating systems. They did this at their own expense, there were no subsidies. Why should heat pumps be different?

[@UpsideDownFork]

@BrianSmith-ow9gy that's not entirely accurate. From 1968 onwards there were numerous government programs to push things forwards, some of that was conversion from town gas to "natural" gas. Adjust for inflation and that cost the tax payer 100 times what the BUS grant does. Once the coal miners strike and OPEC driven oil crisis hit, the government at that time did offer some support for those moving away from goal or oil towards gas. There's some good reading to be had on the OBR or the rapid transition alliance websites 👍

[@jogon331]

@@UpsideDownFork Nut job

[@jasonwilkinson1854]

The saving was only £64/Yr compared to a modern combi boiler on price cap tariffs. (£652 v £716) Thanks for point out that's the best saving most people in the country could expect to make!

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, if your boiler is well sized, modulates properly and has decent controls then it will reach an efficiency of 90%. Nearly all of them don't though. £64 x 15 years = £960. Save £107 per year on gas standing charges. But for me the real benefits aren't financial, even though that's all anyone ever asks about The house is warmer but critically way more comfortable. Always a nice temperature. Every room is now even with no hot and cold spots anywhere in the house. Absolutely brilliant and I'd happily pay a financial premium for a system that feels like this. Air quality is also better without burning stuff.

[@stevegame3000]

Great and entertaining video. My gas boiler is playing up. If it needs replacing I will def consider a heat pump. The only issue is finding a place for the hot water cylinder. Current gas boiler is a combi

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great point! If you're coming from a combi then you need to consider making a cupboard inside the house or externally and in some cases, the loft. Good luck!

[@robinbennett5994]

Can you put a small hot water tank where the boiler is at the moment?

[@joewentworth7856]

There are tall skinny tanks. Horizontal tanks for the eaves. Heat geek offer a mini tank to fit in a kitchen cupboard size. And sunamp do heat batteries that can replace a hot water tank. Just something to look at.

[@stevegame3000]

@@robinbennett5994 there are a few options. Where the boiler is in the kitchen, a coat cupboard in the hall with the bathroom shower directly behind (but shallow) and a first floor “airing” cupboard (with a sloping ceiling). All would cost a bit of storage but manageable

[@stevegame3000]

@@joewentworth7856 I’m sure there’s a workable solution I have some long storage areas in the eaves in addition to the areas mentioned in my other reply. Good idea getting a tank to fit in there😀

[@peterbucklitsch7454]

Our experience is similar. Net cost £3300. Gas boiler quote was £3800. We run at 22c 24 hours. Winter cost £3 a day (less any solar earned). Max was £6 when we had a week of cloud.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Brilliant! Thanks for sharing!

[@PurpleAlienPlanet]

And the installation and equipment shouldn't even cost what you're quoting. I can buy an 8kW heat pump for under 2k Euro, and installation here in Finland is no where near what you guys pay there...

[@ChidleyEngineering]

Exactly. A Vaillant Arotherm 5k is £3.5k here and the installation costs are massive in the UK. This will get cheaper as more heat pumps are installed.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Can you buy the Vaillant Arotherm plus for £2k euro?

[@PurpleAlienPlanet]

@@UpsideDownFork No, but there is more than one brand out there.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@PurpleAlienPlanet I can go and buy a 8kW heat pump tomorrow for less than £2k. Samsungs are available at that price from retail sites. The total price is an accumulation of hundreds, literally hundreds of parts. I've totalled up my system with a trade account and it is more than £13k+vat once you factor in the complete list of pump, cylinder, controls, valves, pump, expansion vessels, pipework, lagging, base, electrical etc etc. Then you factor in a team of 4-5 guys over 6 full days. Average day rate for a tradesmen these days is £350. That's £10,500 in labour. I don't buy into this narrative that the tradesmen are ripping us off or anything like that. Once all UK homes are retrofitted up to a decent standard for heat pumps, the next time it comes to replacement it will be incredibly cheap.

[@VinoVeritas_]

​@@UpsideDownFork Are you going to show us your trade account calculations? I highly doubt your system cost £13K plus VAT for the equipment.

[@craigsketo]

My friend has just had a brand new heat pump installed and is very unhappy with it, he says he was mislead from start to finish about the size of the tanks which have made his garage useless as a mechanics garage, he says he can't sleep because there is a constant low noise coming up from the system in the garage to his bedroom area and that the fans on the outside of the house take up too much space in what used to be a usable car port and they too make too much noise, overall he said if he could he would have the old gas boiler put back in today. The after sales has been poor, and the fitters have promised to come out and look at the system twice now have let him down and failed to turn up for appointments without giving any notice after they have re-arranged days they were due to be at work to make sure they were in. His was done via the government grant system and he said the only saving grace is he hasn't actually paid for it yet as the system is so new and won't be until they come and sort all of the issues out, including potentially re-locating equipment that has turned out to be bigger and more inconvenient than he was told to somewhere more practical for daily living. I learn from his experience that you need to be VERY careful when ordering and make sure the people fitting it can show you exactly what you are having, as so far they have broken all the promises just to get the job and the grant that comes with it.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like your friend either got one of the bad installers or didn't educate himself, or both. You do have to have your whits about you, that's for sure.

[@josk5389]

I have a heat pump since end 2022. arround 2500kwh per year for 23 degree on 200sqm. It was also cheaper than replacing the old woodgas heater due to „new“ (new phase of a law from 2011) regulations for fine particles).

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes!

[@SeekTruthandKnowledge]

The average household temperature was not helpful-more useful would be the max temperature that I could rely on. In our house, 20 C is not all that comfortable-we need at least 21 C and certainly 22 C when it is icy outside.

[@UpsideDownFork]

As counter intuitive as it may seem, you need to forget your existing comfort level as shown by your thermostat. Heat pumps provide a completely next level experience due to the low and slow method of heating. This builds up thermal mass in everything. Our leather sofas are warm, our hard tiles are warm even without underfloor heating, desks, counters, you name it, it's all warm, so the air temp can be 1-3 degrees lower than in a building with high temp convection heating. I have blasted the heating a few times when the energy company paid me to take electricity and it easily got up to 24 degrees before I started backing off. Also keep in mind that the average of over 20 degrees includes all sleeping time and times when we're out of the house. Too warm for me, i'm in my shorts and t-shirt and often still too hot but my wife really feels the cold a lot, but not since the switch to a heat pump. Without fail, every single family member and friend who has visited has also commented on how warm it feels. No cold spots anywhere in the house, just constant, even heat. If I had known this before getting a heat pump, I would have paid a premium just for this alone!

[@SeekTruthandKnowledge]

@@UpsideDownFork Thank you - that was very helpful.

[@rajus0]

Great Video, next year it would be great to see the total cost of your all electric house. Heating, Hot Water and miles in your electric car. EVM does it and it is always amazing how little it costs to run a fully electric house

[@UpsideDownFork]

Will do!

[@rajus0]

@UpsideDownFork look forward to it!

[@waynecartwright-js8tw]

Work out how much less energy is used , the efficiency is impressive. We ditched 12500 kwh of gas and nearly 40000 kwh equivalent of petrol and diesel.

[@mikeonfreeserve2926]

Boomer here. Can remember the power cuts in the 70s and would never go all electric. Always had a gas hob and a gas or wood fire to back up the combi which is dead in a power cut.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@mikeonfreeserve2926 lived in this area for 14 years and never had a power cut. In my previous town we had 2 power cuts in 10 years. I'm not worrying, but can you send me your address in case we get desperate?

[@Agproperty677]

We’re about to build a number of 6 bed houses and the only way they pass building regulations is with air source heat pumps Very worried about how they will perform (in much larger rooms)

[@UpsideDownFork]

Get a good system designer and you've got nothing to fear.

[@lib_f]

I was a bit worried about the noise levels before my install so after it was done in July I ran a hot water heat up in the middle of the day to have a listen. Thought it wasn't working. 😂

[@UpsideDownFork]

Ditto!

[@_Dougaldog]

Exactly that, they are quiet.

[@Mw-dt6sl]

I have had two quotes, one from sustain homes and another from octopus energy. Our house is a two bedroom semi-detached with just over a hundred square meters footage with the outside temperature during the day never falling below -2c, we have cavity wall insulation, loft insulation and double glazing. Sustain are recommending a Baxi 7kw pump with a 150l cylinder with a flow temperature of 45c, Octopus are recommending a 6kw Daikin pump with a 180l cylinder with a flow temperature of 50c. The quote from Sustain is £1570 more than Octopus, although Sustain is more it seems their system is more efficient saving more money in the long run. Me being a mere mortal with little knowledge on these things would like to know your thoughts. Thank you.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I'm not familiar with sustain homes so wouldn't like to speculate on their work but as a general principle consider this. The difference between 45 degree and 50 degree design temps may save you £50 per year in running costs. That's going to take a very long time to pay back the difference in up front cost!

[@Mw-dt6sl]

@UpsideDownFork thanks for the information, it's very helpful.

[@Lawrence7of9]

Like the whisper presentation intro, amusing & informative. I recently increased the high temperature on profile from 40 to 48 degrees as house was hovering a degree or so below my 20-21 degree home preferred temperature. That only became noticeable on -3 to 1 degree days we had. Still tweaking settings/learning as 1st full Winter now. Interestingly though worst cold days it’s still costing way less than when we had gas boiler. Which is surprising as assumed these might be the few days which cost more. Octopus tariff to rescue perhaps?

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great! Thanks for sharing.

[@user-bt3hb4vg7b]

Good result for an older less efficient house, our new house of 310m uses the same Heat Pump.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for commenting!

[@alexco5881]

My Daikin heat pump is fantastic. Runs for years without servicing or gas safety inspection. It just works and it's cheap coz I insulated my house. And it cools my house in summer. And it cannot explode, gas is dangerous and blows buildings apart.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@alexco5881 thanks! 👍

[@PaulHayward-r9r]

Our 5 floor office building is kept at 21 C easily by 2 ground source heat pumps, but a colleague who WfH has an air source pump and is always on calls with her woolly hat on.

[@UpsideDownFork]

She should probably learn how to use the controls 👍

[@PaulHayward-r9r]

You may well be right, or perhaps her home is badly insulated, but I reckon another few years of improvements are needed to make this an easy choice.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@PaulHayward-r9r the equipment is already great but not all installers are commissioning the system correctly which in a minority of cases can leave homeowners cold or with high bills. A little knowledge can rectify the settings quite simply. Unfortunately the handful of bad installations give heat pumps a bad name.

[@hadtopicausername]

Heat pumps are in widespread use in Norway. Nuff said.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes sir!

[@johnj4860]

What's price per kWh of electricity in Norway?

[@hadtopicausername]

@@johnj4860 The best answer I can give you, is google it. It will vary depending on where in Norway you are.

[@TomTomicMic]

In Norway the houses are better insulated, a big factor for old houses retro fitting in the UK, also there are over 11 times as many people in the UK and the heat pump changeover is scheduled by the UK government to be done by 2035, needless to say price gouging is in force due to a forced take up rather than an economic one, the UK is currently installing less than half of the required heat pumps by 2028 and this figure is "supposed" to more than double from 2028 to 2035, there is no economic reason for over 50% of older houses in the UK to change, better to spend money on internal wall insulation and keep gas, installing solar/ battery/ insulation/ heat pump is £30,000 on average. Ditto with Network Grid and EV's infrastructure is not in place but the government wants the changeover to happen anyway and the figures are not being met at present, there is no way they can be met in the future. I want renewable because that is Europe's way of becoming energy independent, however stopping carbon energy which we have "some" of to import from other sometimes unfriendly countries is rather foolish, and our implementation of renewable energy is not driven by economics but by ideology this will not work, horses and carriages were changed to ice vehicles as they became far cheaper and more convenient, currently EVs are not cheap at all, they can be imported from China at lesser cost but not as cheap as ice vehicles but that brings in a whole load of different problems of dependency like with Russian energy, it's not going well!?!

[@_Dougaldog]

@@TomTomicMic Made perfect economic sense for me to change out my 17 Y/O defunct boiler driving seven 40 Y/O radiators and a 60 Y/O HWC. Smart new highly efficient HP, shiny new well sized radiators, all new 28mm feed & 15mm tee copper pipes, shiny new Mixergy smart HWC, and all for under £4k. And a 14p/kWh 24/7 HP electricity Tariff, what's not to like.... And regarding EV's, you can pick up a decent three year old for £10-22k (£22k or less for a Tesla) with up to 4/5 year warranty, and lees than 2p per mile to run.... Makes perfect economic sense, and as an aside will reduce lung and cardiovascular diseases in UK.

[@bernardmills4575]

Good summary.I have very similar experiences

[@UpsideDownFork]

Good to hear. Thanks for commenting!

[@ChidleyEngineering]

This is my first winter using the Vaillant Arotherm 5k. It has a SCOP of 4.4, which drops to 3.3 when the temperature falls to 5C or below, due to the defrost cycles. It seems Vaillant units don't manage these cycles as well as some other brands. Even at 3.3 my heating/hot water costs are still cheaper than when using gas. I'm so happy with the change over from a relatively new combi boiler. My house is warmer and quieter. I've switched to the Cosy tariff from Agile, and this is when my battery proves helpful. With three low-cost periods and a 10kWh usable battery capacity, I almost never use peak electricity. My average cost is about 13p a unit since the switch and was up to 19p in the early part of October when I was still on Agile, what are your costs?

[@UpsideDownFork]

Why do you believe that Vaillant struggles with defrost compared to others? As long as you have sufficient system volume then it works really well.

[@ChidleyEngineering]

@@UpsideDownFork I have looked at my data more closely. It seems like I get a straight line relationship between COP and outside temp. DHW is worse than space heating because of the higher temperatures. Other heat pumps seem to perform better a lower temperatures

[@UpsideDownFork]

​@@ChidleyEngineering I've noticed that Viessman do really well with defrosts and supposedly Ebac handle it in the same way. But otherwise I can't split the difference between the R290 heat pumps in performance.

[@_Dougaldog]

The cop doesn't sound much different, I have the Daikin 6kW (R32) and at 5C external COP was @ 3.5 and at -3C was COP 2.9, I'm working with flow control @ 34C (or 36 at times) 24/7 for now, rather than weather compensation. What I have seen however is that lower demand produces fewer defrost cycles. My unit performed about eight over the coldest 24 hour period last week. My average energy use was 960 Watts per hour over coldest 24 hour period here (N.E Scotland) where ten hours was between -2C and -3C. This compares to 400W/h when at 10C or above externally (for 34C flow), and COP of 4.3, and higher as temperature rises.

[@ChidleyEngineering]

@@_Dougaldog In contrast, my heat pump defrosted 28 times on my coldest day (1.8C). Obviously defrosting is driven by the amount of water in the air, and NE Scotland at -2C I expect is dryer than London at 2C. Having said that, I'm driving my heat pump really hard. I averaged 5.3kW output, 34C flow, from a 5kW heat pump that day. I'll be within the 6.4kW maximum output, according to the manufacturer's data, at the -3C design temperature. I designed and installed the system knowing that I'd be driving it like this. Partly as an experiment to see if I could design and install it correctly (I use radiators only, no underfloor heating) but mostly because I plan to upgrade the roof of my conservatory. Replacing that roof will cut my peak heat demand by 1kW. Glass roofs are terrible.

[@beaverman1974]

If they are installed right and in a suitable newish home with decent insulation they are generally fine. However, many installers are throwing them in and running away when there are issues leaving homeowners to pick up the cost of rectification.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Any home is compatible. The design and especially the emitter sizing is the critical part. It is a myth that newer homes are more suitable, in some cases they are worse for retrofit because of inaccessible plastic pipework.

[@beaverman1974]

@UpsideDownFork Older homes are suitable provided they are insulated correctly. No savings on a drafty old Victorian house. Sadly I have seen some really questionable installations where installers heat loss calculations were plucked out of thin air and poor house holder wondering why the HP runs 24/7. But again, the technology is good, but it's the shady installers making it a bit of a wild west.

[@UpsideDownFork]

​@@beaverman1974 Insulation has no direct correlation to the efficiency of the heat pump. The emitter sizing dictates the required flow temperature and the COP as a consequence. A drafty old Victorian home with zero insulation could be properly heated by a heat pump if you can fit large enough emitters to compensate for the heat loss. The only thing that insulation does in this equation is reduce the heat loss which reduces the potential size of emitters and often when done poorly, introduce moisture problems.

[@beaverman1974]

@UpsideDownFork Yes it could with a large enough HP. But seems pointless to do so if all the heat is escaping and your energy bill is astronomical. 😉

[@BenIsInSweden]

​@@beaverman1974that's the case with any form of heating. In general these days the running costs of a heat pump in that scenario will still be less than a gas or oil boiler.

[@scottwills4698]

This is my first year with a heat pump. So far I agree with all your points (cheaper to install, cheaper to run etc) the only negative I can think of is will the heat pump last as long as my boiler lasted (28yrs) although many people have told me new boilers will only last about 15 years. My Dakin heat pump has a 7 year warranty as long as I pay for the servicing so I’ll worry about it in 8 years 🤣 I guess it will be pretty simple to swap a heat pump for a new one.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, some people say heat pumps are longer lasting than modern condensing boilers but time will tell on that claim!

[@neilmcbrideart]

I am getting a survey done in the new year. Concerned about possible bigger radiators needed in my 7 year old house. I have dialled down the flow temperature on our Combi boiler to 45º and am sat here sweltering.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@neilmcbrideart fingers crossed. It's 5.7 degrees outside here and flow temperature of 33 degrees keeping us at 20.5 degrees inside. 👍

[@oldgitflying]

A good observation on the TRUE cost of upgrading your old gas boiler to a modern unvented new gas boiler system. Potentially makes the heat pump the cheaper install.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Well said!

[@nochops1781]

Only because of the disgusting tax payer funded subsides.

[@steve_787]

@@nochops1781 someone is bitter....

[@alffry5454]

Hi, from New Zealand. We’re thoroughly bemused by the upfront cost of installing domestic heat pumps in the UK. We don’t often use them for water heating though, and if we do we are more likely to use passive solar water heating instead of photovoltaic, supplemented with night time electric heating without heat pumps. A 7kw system for home heating (and summer cooling) would cost us around £UK3,000. So why so costly in the UK? (A system here will put out at least 4x the electric kw input, perform well at -15 deg C and last for 30+ years.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I guess the water cylinder + valve etc makes up some of the cost. We also have considerable other upgrades that are necessary to make the systems run efficiently. I have no idea how all of it compares to your systems though.

[@jamesbeaumont237]

I paid £1500 for my heat pump on top of the gov grant. I’m saving well over £100 every month vs my previous heating system. It’s superb!

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for sharing!

[@pmbpmb5416]

For info , I have two 11kw Mitsubishi r32 ecodans just commissioned . They have been set on constant , there are no thermostats currently in the house , at a flow temperature of 25 degrees . Overnight with nothing else at all on in the house as the board is turned off , plant room is separate to house , the two pumps used an average of 1.3723 kw per hour , outside temperature at night was mild at 9 degrees . That’s over three floors about 430 square metres , ground has underfloor heating the other two floors have 15 K3 rads with valves all set to max , with a total output at T50 of 40346 watts . So they are barely luke warm in operation . On entry first thing when there have been no occupants overnight the house is very warm , too warm if you are physically doing something ,probably very comfortable if sedentary . It demonstrates to me that it’s the insulation all over and windows that are the key factors to pour your resources into if you believe you are staying somewhere for years . What it also tells me is that with the costs of insulation and all the kit on top it’s not an economic proposition , it will make your house more comfortable and your ongoing costs can be minimal , but as return on capital , ouch . As a green contribution good , although you could argue about the resources that went into all the products however if viewed over a buildings lifetime then the argument becomes mute .

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@pmbpmb5416 thanks for sharing!

[@danielbarton1694]

Well done Ricky. Very concise and informative report detailing all the facts. Data is king and even the sceptics will have a job arguing with this one. Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your heat pump experience.

[@davidlewins4631]

I would not let one of these anywhere near our house!! Not because of the operation, there are savings in running costs but replacement costs & longevity of the outside unit! About five to 10 years depending on location - distance from sea etc. Or city polution. It is the fins on the heat exchanger that are the weak point & I bet the repair chap would want to replace rather than repair. So the gas boiler could cost more to run but when you factor in replacement costs, you would need to burn a lot of gas to make the heat pump cheaper!!

[@danielbarton1694]

@ The fins are on the rear of the heat pump out of harms way and typically face a wall so there is no danger of damaging them. Also, there are fewer parts in a heat pump and I’m inclined to think they will outlast a gas boiler.

[@davidlewins4631]

@danielbarton1694 it is not physical damage that is the problem, but corrosion caused due to air passing over them. Hence, my saying about costal & high polluting areas. To be fit for purpose, the fins would need to be copper or Ali magnesium (sometimes called marine grade aluminium). However they will be very thin plain aluminium. In extreme cases, I've seen coils last less than a year! Nb I've worked in companies who make them!!

[@davidlewins4631]

@danielbarton1694 Another key to longevity is the quality of the installation! Worth paying for a better quality firm to take care of it, it can make a big difference in both operation & life expectation. This affects each system equally, though!

[@danielbarton1694]

@@davidlewins4631 That’s precisely why I chose a reputable company like Vaillant who produce well engineered products and their servicing is extremely thorough.

[@lesliegabriolek]

I'm at the beginning of my journey. My current system is much as yours was - 30 year old Ideal Classic. I've had an Octopus survey and am awaiting next steps having accepted. I remain a little apprehensive even though my head tells me all will be well.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I was also extremely apprehensive. Especially as I have a wife that feels the cold and 3 kids running around. Part of the reason I wanted to document and share this experience is that it works and it works really well!

[@neilgilroy1629]

Have followed your journey - I have solar and a battery now, 2 heat pump surveys in next 2 weeks - BG and Octopus. You are an expensive man to follow and have cost me more than when I watch MKBHD videos!

[@UpsideDownFork]

That is awesome! Please let me know how it goes for you.

[@johnh3095]

I am in very early stages of following your setup as well, got two solar + battery/just battery consultations in the next 4 weeks, plus one of the two will assess if a heat pump will work in my property. Found out my rafters are the cheaper option, so solar might be too heavy for them so I'd need to reinforce the rafters if I wanted to put solar panels on. Also, main roof is 45° NE facing, so really not sure if it's worth it for the output, high summer, look little in the winter when I actually need it! Last thing, Octopus better hurry up and install my smart meter, 4 no show appointments now, until I have that fitted and understand our daily /mthly usage patterns, battery size and solar cannot be guessed, so I am just getting quotes for now. Excellent video, comedy gold from the dog! Keep it up

[@nickthegriffin]

Spend money to save money 😂 great

[@gillscorner794]

Have Solar and a battery, hopefully heat pump coming next year, thanks to encouragement from channels like yours

[@nickthegriffin]

@gillscorner794 😂

[@johntozer8270]

I've ask numerous people that have had heat pumps installed, and have yet to find anyone who hasn't regretted it, either regards efficiency or financially. The only people that sing their praises are people selling or installing them

[@UpsideDownFork]

I don't sell or install them. How many people have you asked and how have they quantified their statements?

[@johntozer8270]

The electricity bills raised by 40 to 50% partly due to using additional heaters in the coldest winter, in the end I opted for new gas boiler 18 months ago, absolutely no regrets especially through latest cold snap, under £800 fitted

[@jamesmansion2572]

Surely the elephant in the room is that the subsidy is an early-adopter incentive and is unsustainable. Its general taxation money and could be spent on the usual suspects of public services. The cost of them has not fallen fast enough.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Agree that it's not sustainable, even though it's tiny in the bigger picture of public spending. Right now, because uptake is so low, the amount actually spent on the BUS grant is peanuts compared to domestic gas and oil industry subsidies as well as the fines coming for missing emissions reduction targets. What we really need to incentivise further adoption is the spark gap to be resolved. This will massively affect the ongoing running costs and the attractiveness of the heat pump proposition.

[@jamesmansion2572]

@@UpsideDownFork The fact of the matter is that it may have cost you £4500, but it cost the rest of us £7500. That's a £12000 piece of kit, and when it needs repairing or replacing it will have costs associated with a £12000 piece of kit. I think any cost/benefit analysis should be based on the full cost, not on the fact that we (I) subsidised you.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@jamesmansion2572 Are you feeling hard done by? What else don't you agree with when it comes to tax spending? In the financial year that this was installed, the BUS grant was 0.0065 percent of total public spending. So if you earned £50k and paid £10,000 tax last year, I got 65p of that. Thanks. Perhaps we should consider this a tax rebate. I've paid much more than my fair share of taxes in the last 22 years.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@jamesmansion2572 on the cost of the installation, the heat pump itself is about double the cost of an equivalent gas boiler. The rest of the cost is labour, pipework, hot water cylinder, valves, etc etc...

[@_Dougaldog]

@@jamesmansion2572 My HP is just under £3k without VAT, simple to replace, two water couplings and a handful of cables to reconnect. I notice you make no observation as to the grants that were awarded in the 70's and 80's to install new fangled gas boiler central heating systems in houses that had to be completely replumbed to replace coal fires. Nor the 90% grants for double glazing that were available.

[@IreneNairn]

I have to admit I dont have a clue about my heat pump. In Scotland we were given a heat pump&,radiators. Hot tank & attic insulation for nothing so I assumed I was on a winner. I feel my bills are less, I have a new system including 6 solar panels. We were off the gas grid so we qualified for everything. First time in my life I have cosy house. Dogs love it.❤️

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great to hear! 😊 All cosy is all good!

[@Birko64]

Funny you never hear people ask if air conditioning will work on hot weather. A small amount of knowledge can lead you astray, And on January 13, 1920, the New York Times published an editorial insisting that a rocket couldn't possibly work in space: "That professor Goddard, with his 'chair' in Clark College and the countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution [from which Goddard held a grant to research rocket flight], does not know the relation of action to reaction, and of the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react -- to say that would be absurd. Of course he only seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." In 1968 NY Times wrote: "Further investigation and experimentation have confirmed the findings of Isaac Newton in the 17th century, and it is now definitely established that a rocket can function in a vacuum as well as in an atmosphere," the Times editors wrote. They added, "The Times regrets the error." (Forbes article Jul 20, 2018)

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great comment!

[@nochops1781]

During the most humid times of the year Florida restricts electricity supply via software in smart meters because the grid cannot supply enough electricity. Like you say - a small amount of knowledge can lead you astray.

[@BenIsInSweden]

​@@nochops1781that's not enforced, it's voluntary, and there's typically some financial reward for taking part.

[@BrianSmith-ow9gy]

@@UpsideDownFork Also applies to the laws of thermodynamics. Claiming any machine can produce more energy than it consumes is as silly as the 1920 NYT article.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@BrianSmith-ow9gy just as I shared on another one of your comments... A heat pump moves energy. It transfers energy from the outside air to the internal air inside the building. The same as a solar panel transferring energy. You likely already own multiple heat pumps. Your fridge, the AC in your car are just two examples. No one is claiming to break any laws of thermodynamics. In fact, vapour compression technology is built upon the fundamental principles of thermodynamics and has been an effective method of transferring heat energy for many decades.

[@brianswinbourne3283]

When gas boilers were first introduced, people weren't obsessed with the cost, so why is everyone overly obsessed with the cost of heat pumps when the benefits are ao obviously positive. Great video. Thanks

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks. Good question!

[@tarbat]

So if, like us, you have a modern 90% efficient gas boiler, the payback period on an ASHP is likely to be more than 40 years. Annual saving of £64 vs cost of £4000. With electricity costing over 4x that of gas.

[@willb4278]

Why do people have to think about payback period? Would you think the same if you were replacing your boiler, double glazing , new kitchen etc. Adding these items improves your home, i just don't get this obsession that everything has to have a payback period or we don't buy them.

[@tarbat]

​@JP-wo4ic We run weather compensated max 55C, but typically around 45C. I'd like to put an ASHP in, as we had one at our previous house, but the installed cost and cheap gas vs expensive electricity make it uneconomical.

[@UpsideDownFork]

It's a shame we still have the huge spark gap. When that closes the sums will work much better for changing to ASHP.

[@tarbat]

@@willb4278 How does adding a heat pump improve my home? My current gas boiler warms my home up great, what improvement would I see with a heat pump?

[@tarbat]

@@UpsideDownFork Totally agree. Electricity is now over 4x the cost of gas per kWh. It was only 3.2x back in 4Q2022. By comparison, in Sweden electricity is only 1.1x the cost of gas. I live in the far north of Scotland, most of the time we're on 100% wind and hydro power, but we still have the most expensive electricity in Europe. Will the UK spark gap ever close to anywhere near what other European countries have? Until then, widespread adoption of heat pumps will be problematic.

[@judithgarner6126]

Love mine, perfect heat and much cheaper than my old boiler

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@judithgarner6126 excellent!

[@JeffreyLear]

It still actually costs more than 12k to install. The British tax payer is providing the discount.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, yes I am providing the discount as my wife and I both pay our fair share of tax.

[@_Dougaldog]

I think of it more as a tax rebate for all the taxes I paid over the years, and continue to do so into retirement. Where I object is the tax exemptions given to those fossil companies who pollute my environment. Some of whom have paid little in way of corporation taxes to UK economy in years. Or the 45% taxes for excess profit on renewable and nuclear electricity generation, against 30% on excess gas profit.

[@davidscott3292]

@@UpsideDownFork No you aren't, because what you pay in taxes has to cover everything governments spend money on.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@davidscott3292 In the financial year that this was installed, the BUS grant was 0.0065 percent of total public spending. So if you earned £50k and paid £10,000 tax last year, the BUS grant got 65p of that. Thanks. Now divide that 65p that a £50k earner has put into the BUS grant by the number of installations in that year - 48,900. That means I got 0.001 pence from a £50k earner to subsidise my home upgrade.

[@timballam3675]

@@UpsideDownFork oh that must have stung him!

[@markholt8843]

Really interesting, we have a 4 bedroom detached house. I’m with octopus and have been quoted £1750 for a heat pump and all works including replacing radiators if needed. Spoke to my plumber mate and he said no brainier. So I’m about to pay for the survey.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Excellent 👍 sounds good!

[@AlanTov]

I admire you're patience and tenancy dealing with so many trolls and people who havent got the faintest clue what they are talking about, but think they have a 'gotcha'. The bitterness towards more climate friendly technology solutions like heatpumps and EVs is utterly bizarre.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@AlanTov thanks for your support. People are welcome to their opinions but sharing them as fact does wind me up. Also, why is this such a controversial political issue? 🤔

[@AlanTov]

​@@UpsideDownForkit's (wrongly) seen as a lefty, liberal thing which causes some people to foam at the mouth. Quite a few of them are also climate change deniers if you scratch the surface. I personally want to try and help leave a better future for my kids. Affordably. Keep up the great work!

[@Altair885]

Well, I've have had both an EV and a heat pump system. The car was a complete pain in the bum to live with and then also developed a fault that meant it required a new battery pack, which by the time the car was a few years old cost more than the car was worth! That meant it was a total loss and by the time I factored in the price when new I worked out I'd actually lost several thousand pounds! Long story short I now drive a diesel again! The heat pump also a false economy, anyone who claims they're saving thousands a year on heating is a total lier! They absolutely do not, I was saving about £50 per month in the peak summer months, in the winter it was gobbling electricity at a horrendous rate and cost a fortune! I worked out that I wasn't any better off really and the cost of having installed wouldn't be offset for nearly a decade in real terms, by which time any breakdowns would not be covered and were likely to be very expensive to have fixed! As luck would have it next doors tree fell across our garden and damaged it beyond repair. Back on gas now and I'm much happier for it! 😊

[@UpsideDownFork]

​@@Altair885Which EV and which heat pump did you have? Thanks for calling me a liar. I once choked on a carrot. That means no one should ever eat carrot. Catch my drift?

[@Altair885]

@@UpsideDownFork Nissan eNV 200 people carrier version. Heat pump was a Fujitsu, not sure which model without checking. I am sorry for what seems like strong language but I fail to see how it is that some people claim to be saving all this money when both my own experience, and that of others I know personally does not equate to that same result. The only conclusion that I come to is what they are claiming is false! We had our HP checked several times by different people to ensure its effectiveness. We were told it had optimal positioning and functionality but it was just the inclement weather and similar factors to blame! In effect what it actually became was an electric heater, and a very inefficient one at that! In the colder months the combi works out far cheaper to run.

[@Backburner69]

Hi there I have had my heat pump since 2007 then the cost was £5 300 plus 5% vat I've got no complaints about it my hot water is at 60° and my radiators are 58° got a hot water tank perfect set

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great to hear!

[@hholton7245]

Great video -it's good to get peoples experiences of the new technology. The savings on running costs look impressive. Is the initial outlay and installation costs the factor that puts people off? What was the cost of buying and installation? Does the house warm up quickly or do you leave the heat pump running 24/7?

[@UpsideDownFork]

Hello, you can see more about my installation cost here kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5XIhJStotp_pdE I have other videos that go into great detail about how we run it but simply put, it is on to some extent, all day. The target temperature will typically vary between 17-21 degrees depending on time of day. Hope that helps!

[@vinylpapa]

I stumbled across your channel today and am very impressed with your ability to show everything that someone like myself (a non heat pump owner) needs to hear as confirmation before pulling the trigger on getting one to replace the 17 year old glo worm gas boiler with indisit water tank. This confirms my decision on getting one and having the survey done by octopus recently I’m now awaiting the install date of around March / April 2025. We already have solar with a Tesla gateway and battery along with an Eddi hot water diverter so it seems perfect sense now to commit to the heat pump . It’s a Daikin 8kw with a 200ltrs slimline water tank, all our radiators bar one are large enough but the cosy 6 sadly is just a tad too small & isn’t big enough for the job. All I am now waiting for is a pre-install survey by one of Octopus‘s engineers to go through the finer points. Thanks very much again for your very informative and unbiased channel.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for the feedback! You've dodged a bullet. Daikin 8kW is a great unit which performs well and is reliable. The Cosy 6 is still in beta testing phase and is not proving to work efficiency so far. Having poked around a few Octopus energy installations now, I am incredibly impressed with the value for money offered. They're doing great work on their jobs! It sounds like the rest of your setup lends itself very well!

[@vinylpapa]

@@UpsideDownFork😮 yes it seems that way to me too. I really didn’t want to be a beta tester for the cosy system. All I need now is some advice on what tariff I should look at to make better use of the system and cost effectiveness of everything Any info would be very helpful They recommended octopus agile at the moment I’ve got along with the Tesla app the Netzero app which helpfully has most of their tariffs on a drop down menu

[@UpsideDownFork]

@vinylpapa the octopus compare app can pull in your smart meter data and show you what you would be spending on various tariffs. Depending on lifestyle, EV etc. Intelligent Go, Agile and Cosy are the three mains ones to be investigating to suit your needs.

[@vinylpapa]

@@UpsideDownFork thanks again I’ll take a closer look at their tariffs tomorrow as I’m expecting a phone call from them about any questions that I still need answering. If they have a good one then it’s worth doing now and not nearer the install date as they apparently have some with half price for 2 or 3 hours of Electricity 3 times a day. So I could start to program the Powerwall to take advantage of that now

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@vinylpapa Yes, that's the cosy tariff. I did a brief overview of it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/in-boGRrmdaErcU

[@smellypunks]

I would be interested to hear from people with older houses pre 1940. Can houses with Solid walls move away from gas.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a personal experience but yes, in reality any home can be heated by a heat pump as long as the system is designed to meet the heat loss of the property.

[@mbak7801]

The reason for the expensive installs is the Government subsidy. As soon as they promise £7,500 any installation of around this price instantly increases as the installers know they can hike the prices to the moon. It would have been better if the government had not got involved in the first. The EV charger installation prices doubled when the Government subsidies were announced. Now the subsidies are gone the prices have not dropped as everyone blames the government not the greedy installers.

[@UpsideDownFork]

All of the evidence suggests the exact opposite to your claims. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWjCnYaooLZ7qa8 The reason for high installation costs is because gas boilers are so cheap to run in the UK. If the spark gap was closed and the merito order pricing scrapped, electricity would instantly be much closer to gas in cost and then we wouldn't be chasing COPs of 3.5+. This would bring installation costs down significantly as we wouldn't need rad/cylinder upgrades etc to reach running cost parity.

[@MP-py7pt]

Good vid as ever. Made some changes to my HP from your vids that has increased my COP. Wouldn’t change my heat pump for anything!

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for commenting!

[@mark82421]

Well said Sir ! I have a similar set up (7kW Vaillant) in a 225m2 detached, original rads (incl microbore), stone flooring, no UFH, 2001 built, moderately insulated house in North Scotland. Enjoying a very even 20C temp, I hardly touch the system nowadays, on a bivalent, 0.65HC, 25/45C min/max temp, weather compensated, at a SCOP of 4 (ish). We replaced our 22 yrs old gas boiler and running the whole house for 650 pounds per year, from probably 3000 pounds using the old gas boiler. OK, I have 20kW batteries, 6kW solar and an EV and are on OIG, but the experience has been a pleasure, I would never go back ! I would love to see a video about the ave temp in the Vaillant system, yes please. My temp number is an estimate with the most trusted 'gauge' called wifey 🙂

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great to hear! Keep spreading the good message.

[@delboy3425]

I know a few people who had heat pumps installed and they just didn’t work because it’s an older house 1968 it has been upgraded insulation wise but they couldn’t get the heating right so now back to a combi

[@UpsideDownFork]

I know a few people that have had food poisoning from a takeaway. That means that all takeaways are bad and no-one should EVER eat their food. A 1968 house can be properly heated by a heat pump with very little renovation if any.

[@trevorsmith8487]

Very happy with our Daiken pump and system but then I was faced with replacing our 25 year old oil boiler (no mains gas) and replacing and relocating the tank and line so, with the grant, it was probably cheaper to install. The heat pump runs the underfloor heating and heats the hot water tank and running costs, with our solar panels and battery have been ridiculously low for our large (4000 sq ft) house, particularly as we also have a small heat pump that heats the swimming pool and charge an EV. We have spent £1828 on electricity for the last 12 months and that is total for heating, hot water, lights, all power, EV charging, etc as we have no gas, oil, wood burner, etc Add in minimal servicing costs, much quieter than an oil boiler, no risk of oil spill or theft and way lower carbon footprint and it's a thumbs up from us 👍🏼

[@UpsideDownFork]

That's brilliant to hear! A no brainer in your situation.

[@___Q-bot]

The fact is that electricity is about 3 times more expensive than gas. hence, the saving is just 20-30%.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for commenting. There are additional ways to make decent savings through smart tariffs etc. Everyone should do their own sums as every use case will differ.

[@NealMcQuaid]

Great video. My only hesitancy with heat pumps is the space in the garden. You look like you had a perfect location which doesn’t affect the garden at all. For myself, I’m much more compromised - a 7m wide garden for a 100 sq m home (5m wide). Finding a space for the heat pump is a major issue. Do you think there will be alternatives that factor in these types of gardens? I’m aware of wall mounting however, that’s also tricky due to windows!

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, admittedly I had the ideal location. I believe that many will end up at the front of the property and we'll get used to seeing them just like wheelie bins for example. Heat pumps in Europe are often placed at the front of the property.

[@NealMcQuaid]

@@UpsideDownFork that's my current target location - north side of the house also so not giving up any space on the sunny side :)

[@Lewis_Standing]

Just paid for my octopus survey as the local heat geek quoted me £13500. It's quite a big Victorian 5 bed with a 11kw heat loss and every rad would need charging for a 45c system. Octopus are giving 20% off for a £6000 50c system. Might have to take them up on it

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@Lewis_Standing 👍that's a hefty price difference there. No doubt you'd never make the additional investment back.

[@Lewis_Standing]

@UpsideDownFork who knows they might have to bump up their prices after the survey but I couldn't justify the extra costs I think.

[@fredMplanenut]

I suppose it's dependent on what is being replaced.

[@UpsideDownFork]

That's definitely a piece of the puzzle. Biggest gains can be from an old oil boiler, then a non condensing gas boiler and finally, marginal gains against a condensing gas boiler. Of course the emission savings are huge no matter what you're switching from.

[@Athena621]

What about the cost of retrofitting the building?

[@UpsideDownFork]

The cost of retrofitting the system is included in the average heat pump cost.

[@Athena621]

@UpsideDownFork Maybe I asked the wrong question. Here in Ireland, I was quoted for the required retrofit of my old house (140 year old, thick walled two up two down with 1990s poorly insulated extension, totalling 139 sqm), retrofit for extension only eur 64k as (ground) heat pump doesn't work in non retrofitted building. Installation of the underground installation & cost of the plant eur 27k.

[@waynecartwright-js8tw]

I think all homes should have rads sized to delta T 30 , condensing boilers would run at low temps for efficiency and they would be heatpump ready

[@UpsideDownFork]

👍 Agree

[@SusannaSaunders]

6:58 yes the heat pump is way more efficient but gas costs only a third per kWh of what electricity does per kWh (roughly 11p per kWh for gas compared to 33p per kWh for electricity). So this graph needs to be 'cost per kWh' normalised. I can see that it would still be cheaper to run the heat pump but not by the margin that is implied here. This normalised data would make it easier to do ROI calculations.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for commenting. I hope you found all the info on the video to be able to make your own calculations.

[@mbak7801]

Wow. I pay £0.233 high rate and £0.0667 low rate for electricity. Change your supplier, you are being ripped off.

[@turingtrading5301]

Thanks for the update. Got an install booked in early March so can't wait to get started with the Vaillant heat pump along with my solar and battery.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Nice 👍

[@WilliamLaverick-wo1nb]

We don’t need the tank.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@WilliamLaverick-wo1nb Infantry tank, cruiser tank or battle tank?

[@philjameson292]

I was quoted £20k for an ashp compared to £4k for a new oil fired boiler Almost all of the rads need changing for bigger ones plus new hot water tank

[@UpsideDownFork]

Ouch! That's a big contrast in your case.

[@willeisinga2089]

I have a HTHP for 12 years now. With Rooftop Solar a LG Therma V Monoblock 9 KW 60 degrees cost 3575 subsidie 3075. No Gas No Energybill for 12 years now in Groningen Nederland. Thank you for this video. Very Silent very Hot very Easy very Cheap. 👍❤️🌹

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for sharing from the Netherlands!

[@af4043]

To be honest the noise of the traffic on the main road next to that house is drowning out all other sound...

[@UpsideDownFork]

It is a noisy road but it is 132M from where this was filmed. The microphone gain is turned up pretty high too.

[@Wetglab]

Best overview I have seen so far. The whole eco system is the downside. In that I mean it works when electricity is produced sustainably and can be evenly priced through good and bad times in financial markets. It’s why they are popular in countries with thermal energy to generate electricity. We are wiping our eyes to these things but will only take hold if required in new builds.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thank you. We have to keep chipping away at these issues to slowly bring about greater change.

[@maxvonboeventer6132]

Thanks for this video. It’s the first time the numbers have made sense to me, and they seem the right numbers, all are plausible to me. You’ve not massaged the consumption or the savings. Even when the cost of electricity is well above three times the cost of gas per kWh it still makes sense. Well done. In a new build it makes perfect sense, it would be careless to do anything else.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thank you. I really tried hard in this video not to wear my rose tinted glasses and not to factor in my "free" solar panel energy etc etc. Glad it landed correctly.

[@stevo8629]

Yes weather compensation is included

[@UpsideDownFork]

👍

[@steve_787]

Got my heat pump survey with Octopus booked in. Fingers crossed it all goes well as like you, I have microbore (10mm). Have a possible option to re-pipe the rads up to 15mm as I'm going to be doing some other work to the house and it would be the perfect time to do it. That would cover all the rads to the front of the house, but have an extension at the rear which is all plastic microbore and not going to be straightforward to get to. Oh, and the tank is built into a very narrow airing cupboard so will need to take a stud wall out 😅 Octopus have already said on an initial phone survey that any re-piping would need to be done by a 3rd party prior to the installation. I'm one of the more mad people as I'll be taking at a fairly new boiler (93% efficient Viessmann). It'll be a lot of work, but just removing the boiler from the kitchen and having a more constant temp in the house is enough of a motivation. The house will be more comfortable and quieter, with a bonus that it's less polluting. Now, just got to convince the other half to let me grab another Fogstar 15.5kWh while they are down to £2k with the black Friday discount 😉

[@UpsideDownFork]

Nice!!

[@steve_787]

@@UpsideDownFork well after some number crunching and some eye rolling from the other half, the 2nd Fogstar has been ordered 😅£2k and delivery should be late Jan/early Feb. Noticed on a cloudy day at the weekend we can drain the battery by 4pm, a good day will just about see us through but most days seem to still be getting to 9-10pm before is done. This is before we go to a heat pump and elec ovens! I'm sure we will still have some days where we'll run out, but should be very minimal and wouldn't be enough to justify a 3rd 😉 Roll on the heat pump survey!

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@steve_787 Very nice! How do the fogstar batteries work together? Is it a master and slave situation or do they communicate to evenly balance?

[@steve_787]

@@UpsideDownFork there's an RS485 cable that links the batteries and then a "DIP" switch to order the batteries. Not 100% but assume this will allow them to balance themselves. Hopefully they'll drain/charge evenly rather than forcing more from one first, will report back in Feb ;-) I did the firmware update a couple of weeks ago which resolved the charging issue where it was capped at 5kW, but could discharge at the full 8kW of the inverter. Knocked a good 45min off of the overnight charging time. On top of that, they have changed it to allow 95% DOD from 85% so another 1.5kWh of useable capacity. One thing I'm still not sure how to check is the internal heater. It's in a shed so assume it has been kicking in but need to look into it a little more. They have changed the connectors on the batteries from amphenol to M8 O rings, so I do need to see if they'll ship it with cables to connect the new to old or if I'll need to source those myself.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@steve_787 This is all excellent info for me, thanks!

[@jezzaandrews1940]

so apart from moving the heat pump from its original position, having a hot water cylinder that was too small!, is there anything else you would change about this brilliant set up?😂

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yeah, not publishing it on the internet for the constant criticism 😂

[@jezzaandrews1940]

We all need a laugh now and again!!👊🤣

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@jezzaandrews1940 You are very welcome!

[@gagansingh9148]

How reliable are they? Will they break down?

[@UpsideDownFork]

They are said to be very reliable. Time will tell.

[@farab4391]

and when it needs replacing in the next 10 years, you’ll be covering the whole of the £12,500 yourself. Any savings you’ve made up to then will effectively be less than nothing.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Most of the £12.5k cost is in system i.e. radiator, pipework, cylinder upgrades etc. When the heat pump itself needs replacing in 20 years, it will be approx £2k.

[@farab4391]

@ I hope so, but I strongly doubt it. Nothing made from thin metal lasts for 20 years outside in the UK weather. My gas boiler just made 20 years and that’s only because it’s in a dry garage. £2k is definitely underestimated.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@farab4391 Plenty of 2004 cars on the road with zero corrosion. I've felt the casings for the Vaillant heat pump and the gauge of metal used is thicker than car panels. You can buy a heat pump for £2k retail from public places like screwfix. Trade accounts can get you a Samsung heat pump for less than £1k. Google is your friend.

[@Backburner69]

I've had my Misubushi heat pump since 2007. I have replaced just one of my solenoid valves. I have upgraded my radiators to doubles and I live in a detached bungalow 1950 style. I have no problem with it

[@nixer65]

@@farab4391 Our Daikin is 7 years old and apart from going a little green between the odd wash is showing no signs of corrosion. They are designed to live outside and seem to have no issues with that. Speaking to our engineers who support gas, oil and heat-pump systems they said the following - expect oil boilers to last 10-15 years (they rust out internally from nasties in the oil mixing with condensation in the boiler). Heat pumps last 15+ years (they are just seeing some of the early ones being replaced now) but a lot of this is because the technology has continued to improve and it's not worth repairing the older ones. Gas boilers last 15-20 years. In practical terms gas and heat pumps last about the same amount of time.

[@bilbocrackers3246]

Rick, you are doing a most excellent job attempting to educate those of us who are thinking of switching to a heat pump system. I for one thoroughly enjoy your content. My new 7kW Vaillant was commissioned 2 days ago and all is more than well. Comfortable, plenty of hot water and an efficiency just below 5. Thank you Sir! (atb Martin)_😁

[@UpsideDownFork]

That's great to hear! Enjoy your first winter in exceptional comfort!

[@karencarpenter8275]

Thanks for showing the average temperature - but can you also show the actual over a year? I’m keen to see what happens seasonally, and to see how much deviation there is in the temperature

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks. I've been working on a much deeper dive into the data behind this all, the video already stands at 40 minutes so I'm trying to prioritise stuff. Last winter it was a lot more constant, since running it on agile, I sometimes allow the house to heat up to 24 and cool to 18 on rare occasions for tariff reasons but it mostly sits consistently between 19-21 degrees all the time.

[@lesnorris]

If we could run a generator on gas to provide electricity for the HP. As someone said gas in a ¼ price than electricity so even if it was only 50% efficient that would halve the running costs

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks 👍

[@Loopyengineeringco]

Love the video. I have a Mitsubishi 11.2kW unit, the whole system was £15k 4 years ago but only about £3k to us after 7 years of RHI. And fair, having to find £15k up front was not easy, and the amount of carbon saving we're doing on the government's behalf is only fair (since they can continue to burn gas in CCGT & ship woodchip across the atlantic), especially since we also have loads of PV & a battery. In this £15k we had a removal of our crusty ant-infested back boiler, 11 new rads, an extra floor plumbed in, horizontal tank shoehorned into the loft, heatpump high mounted above a ground floor extension. Massive amount of space back, no garden sacrifices, and after a bif of tinkering later it's now giving us whole house cooling in the summer too (courtesty of aftermarket fancoils) and is cheaper to run that gas was as well. People comparing this to a £1500 combi are mad, it's like comparing a ford fiesta to an S class Merc, totally different things. One small point to make though, Vaillant are a bit naughty with their COP calculation: they roll the consumed energy into the produced energy as well, so their COPs are slightly inflated compared to the simple standard COP measurement. Standard COP: energy out/energy in. Vaillant COP: (energy in+energy out)/energy in.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for sharing your experience! On the Vaillant COP issue. They show Electricity Consumption, Environmental Yield & Heat Generated. Most other companies don't present the "environmental yield" data. All companies are calculating their COP in the same way though, just different terminology. Here's an example. 233.3kWh Heat generated 175.9kWh Environmental yield 67.5kWh Electricity consumed. Electricity + Environmental yield does not = Heat generated because they do factor in the external losses. As you can see in this case, they calculate (more accurately - estimate) a loss of 10kWh. Hope that makes sense!

[@7november70]

What most people do not realise is that to put a heat pump in is just not a direct replacement for their old gas boiler There is new pipe work and interior work tobe done

[@UpsideDownFork]

Correct, in most cases you will need some upgrades to the system. The prices I quoted in this video include those associated upgrades. In our case, we didn't need any internal pipework to be updated. The existing mix of 22mm/15mm and 10mm copper from when the house was built was entirely adequate. But we did upgrade the radiators on the existing pipework to help us have good efficiency. Luckily rads are cheap and I changed most of them myself.

[@AlanTov]

I had no replacement pipework and 3 radiator upgrades. Lots of misinformation and scare stories about.

[@Stune5]

Impressed the COP was close to 4 in the winter months. My expectation was nearer 3 so that was good to see 😊

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@Stune5 Thanks 👍

[@TheRonskiman]

Hopefully next year I'll have a ASHP. I have 29kWh of batterries and 15.5kWp of solar, so should be able to completely run on cheap rate electric.

[@UpsideDownFork]

No problem at all I reckon 👍

[@rogerweller-i3d]

Nice one Ricky. Just had a 14 KW Adlar heatpump installed a month ago. Still working out the settings. The electricity seems to be costing a lot more but no gas used at all. What are your thoughts on a Solar storage battery ? We have 10 solar panels for over 10 years on the high FIT tariff, an electric Mini charged on a MyEnergy Zappi charger. What storage battery would your subscribers recommend . We are on Octopus Energy Cosy tariff, is this the best for us ? Keep up the good work and many thanks.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Cosy can work for some people, in some homes. You will have to experiment and see. There are so many battery options. I'm going to start looking at them closely for myself and documenting it for the channel soon!

[@ChidleyEngineering]

@rogerweller-i3d I have a 14kWh Tesla battery. Initially I was on the Octopus Agile tariff but I switched to Cosy as the battery just covers our needs in the more expensive periods. I heat the hot water in the cheap periods to avoid using the battery - this isn't great from a COP point of view but costs me less money. Battery costs are dropping quickly so I'd wait a year.

[@lynnfisher4396]

Another tick for the Tesla Powerwall, ours running flawlessly and with the Gateway offers power to house during power cuts ( if you get them) which with all electric houses is a big consideration. More batteries coming out all the time, no vat on them now and prices are falling. There’s now a good argument that having a battery before solar pv , especially if you have an EV so you can take advantage of tariffs like Intelligent Octopus is the thing to do. Even a simple cheap rate night tariff helps as you charge the battery on cheap rate during the night and use it during the day so minimising peak rate use.

[@bordersw1239]

Good SCOP achieved, think it would be too disruptive in my house - plastic pipe work and low gas bills. However, may be taking on my mother’s house that’s running on oil with a 15 year old boiler and 38 year old tank. Micro bore copper pipe but all the downstairs is surface mounted.

[@ChidleyEngineering]

It is disruptive but it is worth it, unless your bills are already really low ;-). Of course, your CO2 emissions will be much lower with a heat pump.

[@bordersw1239]

@ because I don’t have UFH? Small diameter plastic piping have pipe inserts to every joint, restricting flow - this is according to Heat Geek, my present gas cost is about £600 per year, including hot water - 4 bed home, 4 occupants minimum.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I accept that unfortunately not everyone has the ideal situation like I do.

[@markthomasson5077]

Thanks, good review. When you record the noise, then go do the same outside a fan assisted gas boiler…they are quite noisy, well mine is. Space, a bit misleading, as you could have had an external gas boiler the same size or smaller. Try heating your house to the same temperature as you did previously, then compare, should even better. We live in an old house..only dream of 20deg+. 18deg is very comfortable especially once the internal surfaces are warm, I prefer a bedroom at 16deg.

[@UpsideDownFork]

So true. Neighbours on both sides have gas boilers which are far noisier! I would be happy to reduce the internal temp but my wife can't go back to a cold house after the comfort she's now used to!

[@radfoo]

Thanks for all the data in this one it really helps. I have a slightly smaller house with a little more usage then yours but it's good too see a comparison. I've done a heat loss calc and think a 7kw vailant is the way to go. I think your house probably would have been fine with a 5kw but doesn't seem to be much downside on getting the 7kw.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@radfoo agreed. I would have had a bit more efficiency from the space heating with the 5 but the 7 is better for DHW and when it comes time for defrost cycles. 👍

[@paulfocus23]

I don’t really comment on your videos as I’m a heat pump engineer and know a well installed system will out perform any gas boiler and the actual heat pump will easily last 20+ years! I just enjoy reading the negative comments from either people who have no idea or people who have experienced very ooor installations which sadly cost them a fortune to run!

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@paulfocus23 thanks for your support Paul 👍 The comments are always... interesting. The ones that get me are the "engineers who have been fitting them for years" who go on to tell us that heat pumps are a con... 🤔

[@robynrox]

If I recall correctly, you're also not looking to optimise your SCOP; you're sacrificing a bit of efficiency by using some more energy at the cheaper rates on Agile I think, so that's a really good outcome. I would find it useful to know exactly how you do that - is it that you increase the flow temperature by a degree or two during cheaper-rate periods and decrease it during the more expensive rate periods? You may already have talked about it? My gas bill over the last two years and assuming current gas rates is £539.97. It's a condensing combi and I'm not going to save all that much - maybe £100-200 per year. But I want to do my bit for the environment as well. Thank you for your detailed videos on the subject, among other youtubers who have helped dispel the myths surrounding this technology and explained how to achieve the best results; whacking it in and using it like a gas boiler won't do that (although I have mine wired up with opentherm to a nest thermostat which does help the efficiency a lot because it controls the flow temperature for me; I've seen somewhere that they think I'm getting 93% efficiency out of it). One thing that's always missing from the calculations that everybody neglects and I have also neglected is that a boiler will also use some electricity to run the pumps and control circuitry. Anyway, rambling! Enough! :)

[@ChidleyEngineering]

I don't know what @upsidedownfork does but I'm trying to optimise for cost (a good COP is part of that). Here's what I do: run the hot water on ECO mode (a Vaillant "installer" setting), heat water in the cheap periods of electricity (this often isn't the best COP because the outside temperature is low), run a lower temperature overnight and slowly heat up the house in the morning.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, that's correct. In essence, my heat pump is off from 4-7pm but mostly runs at 19-21 degrees for the rest of the day. This works pretty well to use the cheap overnight rates and then my solar kicks in for the middle of the day and then house is nice and warm with plenty of thermal mass to see us through the 3 hour period of off.

[@SusannaSaunders]

7:50 Thank you! I see that you do a cost normalisation in your next point! 😊 So a ball park figure is about 10 years ROI when spending £5,000 on a heat pump installation. Just moved into a new build with the standard gasboiler installed. The only storage space is a tiny space under the stairs, so a 200L water tank would be a problem in new builds (as well as the 45L secondary tank).

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yes, unfortunately many new builds have not been future proofed by leaving space for a cylinder etc.

[@SusannaSaunders]

@@UpsideDownFork Thank you for all of your replies to my questions! 😘😊 Much appreciated! Developers need to have much more control IMPOSED upon them because the houses they build are not built for efficiency but only PROFIT. The standard of most new builds is shockingly BAD! If you want an energy efficient house with a good EPC, you are going to run up against this problem. So far it's been 6 months of Hell because of Somerfield Homes.

[@davidcrawford8583]

Had one for two weeks. I was utterly conned. Costs £15 a day just to get to 21oC and takes hours to get there.

[@UpsideDownFork]

It sounds like you should have watched this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYDZgoqnmr99q9E

[@davidcrawford8583]

@@UpsideDownFork I know nothing about it, all I know it's a samsung, I live in a 120 year old cottage and they ripped out my back boiling stove to install this junk. It doesn't work.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@davidcrawford8583 make sure it is on weather compensation mode and the curve is correct for the property.

[@DMFPERFORMANCE]

You actually moved the heat pump across from its original installation location.😊

[@UpsideDownFork]

Well spotted! 😀