Are Sedevacantists just Protestants? | Ft.

[@thecanterburycatholic193]

Loved talking to you both!

[@SedePicante]

@thecanterburycatholic193 Thanks for the free content for me to review! By the by, if you want to talk to a Sede, we're here. Not all of us bite.

[@thecanterburycatholic193]

@SedePicante looking forward to your response

[@willmatthews577]

@@thecanterburycatholic193 you didn't mention Bishop George Munsey's association with the CMRI. You also left out how the SSPV was always meant to be a temporary arrangement that became the Congregation of St. Pius V. The CMRI is not cultish in the way you say. The RCI has been around since 1995. The South American sedevacantist clergy are reference a document from the agenda for Vatican I that all bishops by virtue of consecration participated in the governance of the Church. You left out that Des Lauriers was Pius XII's personal theologian. The charges against Bishop Tethrow were thrown out. Not all the groups use the pre1955 liturgical books. Stay in the Anglosphere. Seth, you can have me on at your leisure, especially to supply the facts on these things.

[@s_hrndz0119]

@@thecanterburycatholic193if you believe Bergoglio is the pope, you must venerate epic apostates and false ecumenists like Mother Theresa

[@94jpmcc]

Basically. And even if it's a stretch, let's call them Protestants and enjoy the reaction.

[@charlesfisher83]

Except basically, it's the simplest truth, if truth hurts their Protestant hearts. Oh well

[@karlmarxsteingoldberg-kike4046]

@@charlesfisher83good one, vatican 2 worshipping prot

[@94jpmcc]

​@@karlmarxsteingoldberg-kike4046What you say is what you are 😘

[@Antwan-xh8rx]

​@@karlmarxsteingoldberg-kike4046lmao you do know Councils are of the highest form of authority? You condemn the Catholic (universal) Church as heretics while you are in the right. You are no better than Mormons trying to establish a new Church 😂

[@George-u3h5g]

They are more faithful to the faith than a lot of Catholics in the institutional church.

[@OpenOceanOnly]

Genuinely wish this video was longer. Very great discussion from actually faithful Catholics. I think if you reach out to John Salza, he'd probably come on to discuss this, too. Great job, guys!

[@s_hrndz0119]

John Salza is a charlatan

[@andrewbartel12]

Good conversation, gentlemen. Glad to see smart people like yourselves working through these important ideas and history, especially considering the recent excommunication of a Sedevacantist with the highest profile to date, Abp. Vigano.

[@PimpMyDitchWitch]

Yeah, well, a trad-boomer in my church basement said that Vigano and Strickland were *holy men*, so, there! Take that you Vatican II NPC.

[@TheBrunohusker]

This is quickly becoming my favorite KZbin channel. Awesome job. Don’t let the turkeys get you down.

[@herrschmidt412]

I've been writing them off as a particularly confused branch of protestantism for years. Glad I'm not the only one to come to this conclusion lol

[@Catmonks7]

You guys forgot about Palmarian Catholic Church jk 😂 Great video 👍

[@Deuterocomical]

@@Catmonks7 we mentioned them briefly!

[@PalermoTrapani]

Great discussion. You have a new subscriber from and older Guy who lived through much of what you all discussed. Cheers and God Bless.

[@marinanguish9928]

33:55 Any chance you would be able to provide a link to that Catholic Answers clip?

[@Deuterocomical]

@@marinanguish9928 email me and I can give it to you

[@Deuterocomical]

@@marinanguish9928 [e-mail]

[@charlesfisher83]

sedevacantist = new protestant denomination

[@DANtheMANofSIPA]

This issues with these debates is that you have to read 6000 pages of boring ass Papal documents to even begin to discuss these situations and things that both the Norvus Ordo and Sedes will bring up. Theres always another document that can be brought up and you just end up in a death spiral. Sedes are difficult because while the SSPX are laughably and obviously schismatic, sedes will always go to the idea that they are Catholic, they are not in schism, they are holding the true faith, its Rome who is not and that means Francis is not a real Pope, so you cant say they arent in communion with the Pope. So its difficult and very hard for a sede to be convinced they are wrong. Only the Holy Spirit can guide them away from sedevacantism through their own personal experiences and struggles

[@DivineComedyandStuff]

Trying to discern whether Sedevacantism or Protestantism is true? Remember, you will know them by their Mediterranean fruits!

[@charlesfisher83]

Well that would be neither of them

[@sasquatchdonut2674]

Figs all the way

[@s_hrndz0119]

@@charlesfisher83Sedevacantism is definitely true

[@George-u3h5g]

I have been sede for 2 years and I'm now coming back little by little to the NO. However, they have many valid points about the crisis in the Church like the dismal state of the novus ordo, the modernism of the hierachy, rampant false ecumenism etc. We should be tackling these issues not a fringe position with little relevance irl.

[@charlesfisher83]

I prefer not to listen to what heretics have to say about the church

[@AmericanImperium1776]

@@charlesfisher83 I’m not a Sede and I recognize the problems in the Church. Modernity has seeped in over the decades and the Church seems to care more about catering to the whims of the world. Also, the guy you responded to said he’s returning to the church. If one is truly sorrowful, they should be brought back.

[@OpenOceanOnly]

@@AmericanImperium1776Question: do you think there has ever been a time in Church history where the Church wasn’t in crisis? Do you think what’s going on now is worse than the clerical rot that led to the French Revolution, with priests amassing huge sums of wealth by selling mass intentions for masses they never said?

[@DANtheMANofSIPA]

How could you ever force yourself to come back to NO after everything you’ve learned? When I decided Sedes were wrong I toyed with the idea of FSSP and then Eastern Catholic but ended up just leaving completely to Eastern Orthodox because I couldnt imagine being in communion with NO heretics or Francis

[@OpenOceanOnly]

@@DANtheMANofSIPA How can you justify Orthodoxy allowing divorce and remarriage despite Christ’s explicit prohibition of it? The are also not One nor Catholic as they are in schism with one another (the Russian and Greek churches are currently in formal schism with one another) and each Church is autocephalous and no teachings are truly universal. They also have sacramentally ordained a woman which is completely contra to the sacrament that was given to us by Christ Himself.

[@nickkraw1]

Yes, they are.

[@JacquesMigne]

16:46 By the term sedevacantist - it implies they are in communion with Rome but they dont accept the current claimant to the chair. Your line of thinking is very confused. ---The canonists say a person who rejects the papal claimant because he in good faith thinks it is doubtful is not schismatic.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

How can you be in communion with Rome and deny the Pope? That doesn’t make any sense. Canonists aren’t infallible (but V2 was)

[@PalermoTrapani]

@@Heinrich.Denzinger Well said.

[@Hitman_Man]

@@Heinrich.Denzinger you're united to the Pope and Rome by baptism and the holding of the true faith (De Fide). if you're mistaken for thinking a person isn't the Pope while he is, then you're still united to the See of Peter (see St Vincent, St Hippolytus, etc.), Pope St. Gregory VII even stated that someone wasn't in schism even though they were with a group of heretics, since they were simply confused. Canon Law reflects, in this area, the Divine Law - everyone who professes the Catholic faith and is baptised is Catholic, even if they're wrong about someone's status as the Pope. that being said, if someone is clearly a buddhist and is claiming to be the Pope, calling that man "Catholic" would be apostasy from the faith.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

@ I understand that sedes are Catholic in the sense that they are baptized, but so are some Protestants. Sedes don’t only disagree with Catholics on the papacy. They tend to be on the side of Protestants in saying that Jesus is not made present at Mass, that nfp is covtraception, that there is no living authority but just text they submit to, some are feeneyites, they deny the canonization of St Teresa of Calcutta, etc. WE ARE NOT THE SAME

[@JacquesMigne]

@@Heinrich.Denzinger There are some novus ordos who deny NFP and Baptism of Desire. Jesus is present at the mass, the novus ordos dont believe in the real presence. Mother Theresa said many heretical statements and accomplished little she helps prove the vat 2 popes arent the vicars of Christ. Yes we are Catholic, you are protestant, correct.

[@fallenkingdom-zd8xh]

I was not expecting this to be a debate💀

[@Deuterocomical]

More of an echo chamber than a debate lol

[@atrifle8364]

​@@Deuterocomical- Very informative though. I will listen again. I got distracted. 🤣🤣 Besides, I am not sure debates always help people, even if I am prone to having them. 😂😂

[@fallenkingdom-zd8xh]

I don’t want to rush you or anything, but I was wondering if it would be possible for you to make a video about the debate between Brayden and Zoomer last night.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@fallenkingdom-zd8xh I’d like to! Not sure if it will happen while the debate is still relevant though

[@JacquesMigne]

11:35 - not sure what you mean the CSPV (SSPV) has 20 priests and 120 nuns, the RCI is much smaller in comparison in regards to structure and order.

[@Mokinono45]

Sedes aren't Protestants. This is just slander. They are emo boys who watch anime and listen to sermons.

[@sasquatchdonut2674]

Wait actually emo or would they be goth?

[@Ruudes1483]

Don’t slander emo and anime like that!

[@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr]

They're total prots bro

[@JacquesMigne]

18:51 - there are sede mass centers or churches all over the world, in almost every major US city. The luminous mysteries are a modern invention, not given to St Dominic, what on earth are you talking about? 150 hail marys is for the 150 psalms... learn some basic theology before going on youtube

[@TheMrJoltz]

What sede denomination do you belong to that would have a centralized episcopal mandate that spans globally?

[@DANtheMANofSIPA]

@@TheMrJoltzWhat he doesnt say is that none of these groups are in communion with one another and will actively tell their parishioners to not receive communion except from them.

[@JacquesMigne]

21:54 what differences in theology do sede PRIESTS have? The novus ordo is in communion with feeneyites, not he sede priests. Every article of faith is in complete agreement in sede priests, can you say the same of the novus ordo? lol

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

This is an interesting take. However, personal theological takes are trumped by submission to the Church

[@richardkeane895]

Didn't know you're friends with Nick Fuentes.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@richardkeane895 I don’t get it haha

[@richardkeane895]

@Deuterocomical your guest called the Catechumen looks and sounds exactly like Nick Fuentes. Perhaps that would be a good comedy video to do in the future about Fuentes. He's not a 'trad', but is a Catholic who has some wild political opinions.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@richardkeane895 I don’t think he looks or sounds like him very much, but maybe it’s just me

[@JacquesMigne]

13:04 - have you ever read the early church fathers history? There is plenty of infighting and division. Or the rivalries of different religious orders? Sede priestly organizations (cmri,Imbc,rci,sspv,cspv,sgg,independents) agree on every article of faith and application, the only arguements are on discipline with regards to holy week, sacramental intention of Thuc etc.

[@s_hrndz0119]

“The Catechumen” also has a mistaken view of “communion with Rome”… being in communion with Rome means obeying the legitimate successors of Peter. You cannot do that in the Vatican II Sect, the Vatican II Antipopes teach through their example and teachings that interfaith prayer and worship is good. BTW, during the Babylonian Captivity the true Popes reigned in Avignon and during the Great Western Schism antipopes reigned in Rome.

[@Deuterocomical]

How did the faithful know which Pope was the true Pope and which Popes were anti-popes during that time?

[@charlesfisher83]

So you're a really dumb heretic😂

[@JacquesMigne]

9:50 - they have never said "completely invalid" - they say (positive) doubtfully valid.

[@JacquesMigne]

22:44 All sede priests say they are sacramental clergy, the ones that said otherwise died out 20 years ago with small following.

[@JacquesMigne]

8:52 -- completly inaccurate his sickness was talked about publicly and in writing for over 20 years lol

[@Anti-CornLawLeague]

I can’t deny that there was a 180° in the tone of “Outside the church there’s no salvation” from pre-Vatican II to after it. How much of that was just popes’ personal opinions and how much was infallible dogma I don’t know.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

There’s a difference in the way it’s presented and talked about but it’s still true

[@s_hrndz0119]

“The Catechumen” is quite the ignoramus. He thinks sedevacantism is “quasi-donatist”. Except a Sedevacantist doesn’t determine the validity of a sacrament whether the person administering it is in a state of grace, not even if the person is a heretic or not. A sacraments validity is determined whether proper form, substance, minister and intention is present.

[@Deuterocomical]

Some sedevacantists believe we should not receive Sacraments from those they deem heretics Also, the Catechumen never claimed to study sedevacantism at a deep level, so calling him ignorant isn't much of an insult given that it is such a fringe idea

[@JacquesMigne]

14:30 - this claim can certainly be made against the sspv but the similarities of Donatists end there, its all about doctrine not personal holiness.

[@maukachauka8793]

The live comment was hilarious, I'd debate you in a sedevacantist discussion any time and I'd destroy you.

[@KyleWhittington]

That’s adorable that you think that

[@SedePicante]

@@KyleWhittington Thanks for those interviews on Post-Trad-Recovery. They made great content for me. It's fantastic to be able to show the other side.

[@maukachauka8793]

@@KyleWhittington I pity you, bc you are too blind and confused you can't even tell your left from your right and up from down. Keep worshipping with a pagan idolator and sodomites

[@JacquesMigne]

10:47 - the CMRI are known as the least cultish in sedevacantism (since the 90s), they are routinely known as being too lax and liberal on those things you mentioned.

[@zacharyahearn4069]

Sedevacantists are not Catholic. You just larp as a Catholic. Much closer to fundamentalist Baptist. Both believe Jesus isn’t present in the Eucharist Catholics receive every mass.

[@CatholicScrolls]

​@@zacharyahearn4069 When formerly Catholic priests began saying the invalid Anglican litergy, were the Catholics who recognized that they did not confect the Eucharist non-Catholics?

[@PalermoTrapani]

@@CatholicScrolls The situation with the Anglicans is much more complicated than how you phrase it. Yes, in 1896 Pope Leo XIII in 1896 did issue Apostolicae curae declaring Anglican orders null and void. However, because of the Oxford movement in Anglicanism during 19th century, large number of Anglicans wanted to move the Anglican communion back towards the Catholic Church and away from Protestantism. So they entered discussions with the Old Catholics who were hyper Conciliarist who rejected Vatican I over the Dogma of Papal Infallibility and broke Communion with Rome. By 1910-1920 large numbers of Anglicans had their orders validated by the Old Catholics. The Union of Bonn in 1931 resulted in Anglicans forming common celebration of the Eucharist between the Anglican and Union of Utrecht Old Catholics. So it is entirely possible from many Anglicans who did have their orders validated by Old Catholic Bishops in fact had valid Holy Orders. As a matter of fact, as was discussed in the presentation, the original CMRI founder Francis Schuckardt was ordained a priest and consecrated a bishop by Daniel Quitler Brown who was affiliated with the North American Old Catholics. So think about this, the same Old Catholics who consecrated the Anglicans back in the early 20th century (i.e. the Dutch Touch) were the ones who consecrated the original CMRI founder Schuckardt. Now because the Anglicans and Old Catholic Union of Utrecht began ordaining women clergy in the 70's and then Bishops, they no longer have valid Orders. The only remaining Old Catholics who have valid orders are the Union of Scranton Old Catholics which include the Polish National Catholic Church in the USA and the Nordic Catholic Church in Scandanavia, former Lutherans who entered Union of Utrecht, then split from it after women's ordination and joined Union of Scranton.

[@PalermoTrapani]

@@CatholicScrolls That was during the time of Thomas Crammer. Yes in 1896 Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Orders null and void. Subsequently, many Anglicans went to the Old Catholics who split from Rome over Vatican I. By 1930 at the Union of Bonn, the Old Catholics validated many Anglican bishops and clergy who asked thus many Anglicans in fact had valid orders. This was questioned again in the 1970's when the Anglicans began to ordain women clergy and by 1990's bishops. So the ? is now back to where i was in 1896, many Anglicans came into union with the Catholic Church via the Ordinariate, almost all were ordained unconditionally, although Leonard Graham, Anglican Bishop of London was ordained conditionally back in 1994.

[@CatholicScrolls]

@@PalermoTrapani You didn't address the point of my comment at all. The first comment is trying to make the point that sedevacantists don't believe the Eucharist is present at the Novus Ordo, therefore they aren't Catholic. I'm pointing out the absurdity of that position. The argument is that the Novus Ordo priests aren't validly ordained and are celebrating a false service. Therefore, the Eucharist is not present in the same way that it isn't present at Anglican services, even though the Anglicans claim to believe that it is.

[@StJohnPaulXXIII]

Do any of the participants in this stream ever say "our sedevacantist brothers and sisters?" I doubt it. That would be the strongest evidence that traditional Catholics are protestants.

[@one.who.fears.judgement]

Hi. I am a Sedevacantist. I am really excited to see what this is about. I don't want to say much because it may have been discussed in the video, but I want to ask you something: what do you believe about the actual ideas of the Dimond Brothers? So far, you have only discussed one of their few videos that doesn't talk about Catholic doctrine, so, I would like to see your counterarhuments to their theological arguments. I believe they are right about the Apostasy, the End Times and the prophecies. I mean, how could you deny any of that? The last clamants to the Papacy have taught extremely anti-Catholic things. But I still want to know why people deny these facts.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@one.who.fears.judgement You want me to respond to all of their arguments? That seems like an unreasonable request. Regarding their ends times prophesies, I would point you to Mark Nanneman’s videos exposing those. And I would point you to John Salza’s articles regarding loss of office and the New Rite of Ordination/Consecration being valid.

[@atrifle8364]

The most anti-Catholic claim one could ever make is that Peter is a heretic. Where Peter is, is where the Church is, is where God is. Jesus directed us to not worry about the end times. The most Catholic thing to be done is drop the arguing and start going to Mass at a parish nearby. Also get a Luce plushie.

[@LeviSmail]

“In the interest of peace and the faith we cannot judge in matters of faith without the consent of the Roman bishop" -St. Peter Chrysologus So, I ask you, from which Pope do you receive consent to judge?

[@one.who.fears.judgement]

How can someone who denies the first commandment be a succesor of Peter? Jesus told Peter that he would not lose the faith. These men, however... well, they don't have a problem with taking part in devil-worship.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@one.who.fears.judgement Which modern Pope denied the first commandment?

[@philgonzales1218]

And all this time I just thought Sedevicantist were just Catholics who believed the seat of St Peter was empty (like all those Eastern Orthodox Protestants) I forgot to factor in all the Protestants that pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints.

[@geckoniner5625]

I mean for the most part they are. The thing is that not a single prots affirms the sacrificial nature of the mass or liturgy while the sedes admit that but deny the NO. I don’t really consider them Protestants for this. Just another form of orthodoxy unless it’s a conclavist cult but sede friendly oragnizatuons like sspx or sedes outright like sspv really should be under the orthodox umbrella

[@charlesfisher83]

except sedevacantist are not Catholic

[@philgonzales1218]

@@charlesfisher83they are.

[@philgonzales1218]

Buh buh baaaaah!

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

I don’t think the defining feature of a Catholic is the BVM but submission to the Church. If a prot prays a rosary, they aren’t Catholic. If a sede rejects the Church’s teaching, authority, magisterium, and Pope, they’re pretty much prots

[@JacquesMigne]

22:30 - youre talking about the Thesis? lol you are grasping at straws

[@MegaMetal96]

Videos like this completely miss the point and just drive people towards orthodoxy