Arrow Speed Isn't Everything When It Comes to Bowhunting Whitetails

[@jacobgowdy1594]

I'm running Black Eagle Spartans 200 spine, 120gr Ethics Archery SS inserts, 200gr. Cutthroat Single Bevel Broadheads. 709.3gr total @ 18.4% FOC

[@DDHONLINE]

Thanks for watching and for your insights, Jacob. You are obviously in that top-tier that's mentioned in the video.

[@sogk12]

The way to go. Heavy, lots of momentum. EFOC is a must. The single bevel broadhead makes it top tier, as it's almost makes it bone blind 👊👍

[@medinescustombaits1099]

@Trump 2020 right here ole son!

[@MikeyWoomer]

That's a lotta weight but if it flys good and you like it and Mike confident in your set up that's great. I'm shooting 550 65# 28draw length

[@jacobgowdy1594]

@@MikeyWoomer I shoot 65# @ 30.5" DL it should have any trouble going through a big bodied Canadian whitetail.

[@carsonschulz6498]

The archery industry - AKA you guys (at least you’re suggesting 400-450gr though) - needs to start downplaying speed/KE and emphasizing accuracy and momentum. Expandable shooters should shoot at least 450-500gr set ups - light arrows, weak spine and big cut expandable heads all add up to rarely seeing pass through shots on TV shows. I used to follow the speed crowd as I started bow hunting in 2008, but having a 275lb whitetail at 12 yards, shooting a Rage Hypodermic and a CX Blue Streak 350 at 30”/70lb, I did not get a pass through. Out of a ground blind. Lousy blood trail and the most penetration on the offside it got was 1/8” where it bounced off the rib cage. No shoulder, no spine, no big bones. The arrow should have been 10 feet beyond the deer, not being broken by a tree as it ran off. More weight, more FOC, and a cut on contact head lead to more pass throughs and allows even 40-45lb bows to blow through deer. Tuned equipment, sharpened broadheads (not just opening the package) and short shots, avoiding the need for 60+yd shots that professional hunters seem to be taking nowadays.

[@The_ZenTex]

exactly. Cover the Ashby 12 tips and your good to go imo!

[@bozzyb7109]

450-500 includes the broadhead? I was thinking of 100g grim reaper hybrid. I didn't know what arrow I should run. I have the mathews v3x at 75lbs.

[@djloudogg745]

Thank you! Very solid and helpful explanation!

[@robertloomis8490]

I’m new to archery This is my first year bowhunting.I may have went a bit overboard lol I’m shooting a Prime CT5 at 67# 29 1/2 inch draw with a Vap Tko arrow that weights 477gr.They have the 50gr inserts out front and I plan on shooting a 125 gr fixed blade Magnus broadhead.(I have four fletch heat vanes )I think my foc is around 16%.Im only guessing but my speed can’t be over 270 right now.But like you said,it’s whitetail and I’m looking for a 20/25 yard shot.I guess I will also be able to kill a Subaru with the momentum those things punch with lol

[@JacobLehman-ov4eu]

how has this worked for you? my research brought me to roughly the same set up you just suggested.

[@ThatJamesGuy88]

I know I’m late to this video, but I don’t think bow hunters should worry so much about “kinetic energy” and think more about “momentum” and “efficiency.” Our goal should be to cut as much vital tissue as possible, as efficiently as possible. If our arrows transfer kinetic energy to the animal, it will reduce penetration and tissues cut. Yes, we need KE to launch the arrow. And if we shoot expandables, we need enough KE to make them fully deploy. But an arrow from a modern bow doesn’t carry enough KE to cause life ending injury to medium and larger sized game animals. It’s a concept I’m still trying to wrap my head around.

[@robolyn]

What?

[@chuckster243]

Very straight forward talking, thank you, reality is great.

[@joshflowers6117]

Expanding broadheads are lame . Cut on contact fixed blades with properly tuned arrows that are of effective weight "Adult arrows ".

[@joshflowers6117]

@Trump 2020 "Dr. Ashby Gang" common sence really lol

[@The_ZenTex]

@@joshflowers6117 Ashby also has the data to back up his claims!

[@yanceymcdonald6017]

I’ll be honest, I’m still blown away by how many people shoot Expandables. I understand that when they first came out they seemed like the greatest thing since sliced bread. I’ll give the devil his due, when they work right they’re great. However, When you start to look at the penetration you get with them (which is less, meaning less likely for a pass-through) and the likelihood of them not deploying properly. It just seems crazy at least to me that people still shoot them. I would also argue that speed matters, especially when shooting beyond 30 yards.

[@danschmidtdeer]

Hi Yancey - I hear you on some of these points, but I'm a big believer ... and I was probably the LAST guy in the "industry" to switch to using them. My switch came when Rage came out with the Xtreme. I now shoot SEVRs. Have also shot the NAPs. I can honestly recall only 1 or 2 bad penetration examples in literally hundreds of kills over the past 15 years. To me, the difference was when these manufacturers started getting serious about blade sharpness. It wasn't always that way, as you know. Granted, a poor shot placement is going to be trouble, but that's the case with any broadhead. One thing I know is that I am very glad that quality expandable exist (and there are more than just those three I listed). It all comes down to patience and insistence on the RIGHT shot rather than simply getting A shot. God bless and have a great rest of the summer!

[@yanceymcdonald6017]

@@danschmidtdeer I definitely had sharpness issues early on. And don’t get me wrong I don’t demonize anybody for using them. Archery is a personal choice in many instances. You’re also right in saying that shot placement definitely matters, in fact it’s probably the most important factor of all. If you miss towards the shoulder you’re better off with a fixed blade, and if you miss more towards the gut you’re better off with an expandable. I’ve just witnessed too many people shoot deer and elk with Expandables that never opened. The number of times that I have seen it probably only totals 9 to 10 times (all of those times weren’t me lol), but I just see it as it adding an extra factor that I have no control over. Something else that influences my decision and viewpoint as well, is I hunt elk just as much or more than I hunt deer. Again though, it’s just based off my own personal experiences and preferences as well. Heck, I even have people inside of my own family that prefer to shoot expendables too! Anyway man, Best of luck to you this year and God bless you as well!

[@stephenferguson6363]

Iv killed in excess of 35 deer with expanding broad heads mainly grim reapers and had zero failures and only 1 that didn't pass thru that cause I went thru 1 shoulder blade and slammed into the off side all deer were shot with a 70#@28" draw and all arrows were 450+ grains normally running 510

[@projectredbeard2199]

Honestly I'm trying out shwackers this season because they have been extremely accurate out of my bow, and I'm at a 29.5 draw 80# 450gr total and 306fps.

[@Bob-ub4gl]

K.I.S.S. is "a thing!" Magnus Stingers--'nuff said... lol

[@skylerallinghamgotime3609]

Drop the FMJ and add the weight to the front / Broadhead. I use Easton 6mm Bloodline cut to 29" with 150gr Grizzlystik and 4 fletches total 455gr.

[@lessforloans]

FMJ is fine

[@ericsmith5919]

@@lessforloans The problem with FMJ is that the GPI is super high, so you're losing FOC and you lose the ability to run heavier heads at a given weight. For instance, I run 30" shafts and 200 grain broadheads. If I put that head on a 30" 300 spine FMJ at 11.3 GPI, I'm looking at 600 grains. Drop down to a 300 spine Gold Tip Hunter at 9.3 GPI and I've just saved 60 grains of shaft weight and now I have a 540 grain arrow with ~18% FOC.

[@jango_bmx11]

Everything this guy said made me cringe after reading the Ashby foundation. Not only do they have the field research data, but also the physics and math to back it up. It’s definitely something I can appreciate as a mechanical engineer. Going fixed, single bevel, high FOC this year and feeling confident!

[@VitalyMack]

Problem I'm seeing with the Ashby study, the fact that compound bows were not used. Trad bows are much less efficient, so I am having a difficult time figuring out how to apply the Ashby date to a compound bow. From what I have seen from the Ashby results is that .40 slug feet per second is more than enough to smash through the heaviest bones. And a modern compound can easily achieve this with a 400 grain arrow even at longer distance...lets say out to 50 meters. I haven't seen any data that discusses this issue. Only thing I can think of is when I go hog hunting, is once I kill the hog I will quickly shoot it with several test arrow to see how low mass I can go.

[@evanniblett225]

If it's a short range proposition and you know this why not shoot 550 plus and also you ain't loosing much on ya pin gaps at 550

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi Evan, you make a good point ... and that is heavy is not a curse when it comes to an arrow setup.

[@ptw783]

KE is a factor of mass and speed though. You can carry the same KE with heavy slow weight and fast light weight.

[@mitchellwilliams4337]

I wanna see it shot over a chrono, 440gr would have to be traveling 282 to make 77.7 ft lbs of energy and that is hard for me to believe a 55 pound mathews is doing that unless it's a 31 in draw.

[@robolyn]

My thoughts exactly. My BS meter was twitching lol

[@franciscolara438]

You are so right. But even if it was at 31”. But of course only the people that have been shooting for a while, would know and understand this.

[@cjr4497]

I'm with you guys. This video does not give the best advice.

[@shanemarkezich6143]

I know this video is old but any feedback helps. I’m just getting into bow hunting, shooting a Mathews Creed XS which IBO is 321fps. I’m shooting Easton Aftermath 400 gr. Spine With 100gr. Slicktrick broadhead and (not sure if it matters) a Nockturnal lighted nock. I am BRAND new to bow hunting, and don’t know anything at all about arrow weight/speed/kinetic energy whatsoever, and while I did gain some knowledge through this video, I’d like to know what y’all think of my exact setup.

[@shanemarkezich6143]

Probably worth mentioning that my draw length is 27.5 and I’m shooting at 65 lbs.

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi Shane - that setup is perfectly fine for bowhunting whitetails. You are generating plenty of energy and your equipment is way better than average.

[@mikeguy9668]

@@shanemarkezich6143 man if I was you, I'd go with a sirius Apollo 350 spine with 100 grain outsert and a 150 grain cut on contact single bevel. You'd be a little over 500 grains with great foc. Shorter draw length can have its perks my guy

[@echoscope4278]

400 grains without a head or inserts?

[@coryCT]

Hey man , love the channel . Always good info here . Just wanted to share something with you I got from a highly respected local guy around me...it’s about vane placement. Basically told me when I fletch my arrows to move the vanes back as far as possible. I have done so with great results. He said vanes come factory fletched an inch or more foward on the shaft only because we all use to use fingers and needed room for clearance . Now that 99% of us use release aids this is no longer the case . The best placement for stability is a far back as possible only allowing room for string angle . Give it a try sometime I think u may be impressed with the long range grouping . Anyway...best of luck

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi Cory - thanks for checking in and for this advice. I'm sure this is going to be extremely helpful for many of the viewers. Appreciate it, and have a great rest of the weekend!

[@carsonschulz6498]

Put them back as far as you can without them contacting anything (beard, face, face mask, etc). Factory fletch is intended for the masses. If you fletch your own, you can customize them. Everyone anchors differently. If you like to play around with it, you can fletch some up 1/8-1/4”, staggered, so as they spin they act like you have longer vanes. Having said that, bowhunting is about getting in close. 15-20yd shots over 50-60yds.

[@colinrawlings1]

This is super cool advice! Thanks!

[@coryCT]

@@colinrawlings1 just try it man . Fletch 3 arrows as far back as you can get em . In my bitzenburger I even use a lumenock just to fletch because it pushes the shaft further up the jig because the knock itself is longer then the regular x nock I use. Then when the arrow is fletched I pop it out and toss the x nock back in. Try 3 arrows like this and 3 the "normal" way. Get your own results and please post em I would love to hear. Ps . Where are the stabilizing wings on rockets that go into space ? And why are they placed there ?

[@colinrawlings1]

@@coryCT thanks! I will give it a try. I’m brand new to archery and hunting so I’m loving seeing everyone’s advice and knowledge.

[@russelllangworthy8855]

I'm not as strong as I used to be so I'm only shooting 72 lbs now, but back in my 30s and 40s I hunted with 82 lbs and was getting just over 88 ft lbs of KE. No, you don't need that much energy for a broadside, stationary deer, but I shoot a lot of deer straight down and often hit the spine. The extra energy helps to punch through that spinal cord.

[@utewb4131]

purpose spine shot is bullshit, thats causing undue suffering majority of time, learn to hunt humanely and you dont need much more than 40lbs to kill a deer

[@kaleboliszczak7682]

Don't worry about kinetic energy if you look at kinetic energy your dumb look at momentum that's what matters heavier arrows will be slower but won't loose speed as fast carrying more momentum and momentum is what is gonna give you penitration 460 to 530 is a pretty soild range I have found and I'm a 27 in draw 75lbs 29ata matthews v3x and I still get 272 fps with a 507 grn arrow elk moose bear deer that's setup would be great for literally anything my arrows are victory vap ss elite with a 4 fletch left helical 125grn kudu heads 75grn insert/outsert 5in wrap standard knocks and for strings coustom gas gohst xv strings and it's an absolute killer of a setup never have had any issues neither has any animals they haven't made it further than 60 yards but those have all been well placed shots on the animal

[@KevinMillard68]

your setup works with your gear does not mean it works with everone elses gear and you also have laws to follow for hunting as well so you cant use 25lbs draw weight to hunt deer unless your state allows for it.. and i dont know of any that do mind you iam in canada and in ontario min draw weight is 40lbs for deer and turkey and 50+ for bear elk etc. and that's just the draw weight you have to pull then you have to dial in proper spine and weights to run accurate etc.

[@fz671]

I'm running Black eagle carnivor 250 spine 30" arrow with 64gr insert in both of my bows. PSE stinger x (65# 30" draw) loves 175gr Grizzlystick Samurai overkill. My Bowtech Amplify (68# 30") draw likes a 200gr broadhead (Cutthroat single bevel). finished arrows are 560gr 18% FOC and 585gr 20.5% FOC. My arrow flight is nearly eye watering if the speed isn't. The one arrow build for both bows I think is a happy place for that arrow. But I'm not complaining.

[@stealhty1]

It makes sense, my wife gave me a 60 pound compound bow that I had never fired before, it is even difficult for my son to pull that type of string, I have learned that a 25 pound bow is all of that. He he needs,, Thx for Explaining

[@ThirdLawPair]

The improved trajectory from faster speeds only increases range for target shooting. It's never going to be fast enough to keep the deer from potentially dodging arrows past 40 yards. The ability of deer to hear and dodge arrows is the main limitation, not trajectory or lethality.

[@sparrow7478]

You should be shooting 70# draw weight with 400 grain arrows brother. If you can pull the poundage then do it because its best to have a pass though instead of sticking the deer and wounding.

[@caseyberning7789]

What kind of arrow scale was that in the video?

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi Casey - I believe this was made by the Apple company (same one with the Pro Saw), but I've had it for at least 25 years, and I'm sure they don't make them anymore. Best, Dan S

[@tylershuff3283]

I use a weed scale from a head shop they work great

[@rykerpuckett2883]

Bro around 400 grains with an expandable is not ideal for breaking bone, MAYBE you could get enough penetration through a shoulder if you get lucky but probably not. The best bone breaking setup is at least 500 but closer to 550-650 grains with a tough fixed blade, especially single bevels.

[@doitdoitright5916]

Great advice, and you can never shoot a broad-head that’s to sharp.

[@davidkoeppel4109]

What sight is that on your bow?

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi David, I shoot an Apex Covert; same company that makes TRUGLO sights.

[@pnwtactical]

What kind of broadheads should I be using I’m at 60 pound draw weight with 275 grain arrows without tips so 375 with 100g and 400 with 125g

[@ThatJamesGuy88]

With that arrow weight, I’d imagine a cut on contact fixed blade would give you the best performance. What did you decide to go with?

[@FlyinZX10R]

I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[@zachs13]

With a shot execution like that, I can't even listen to anything you're saying

[@Xng88]

I shoot a heavy carbon express maxima red 250 spine arrow with 100 grain broadhead pushing 350 total with 55lb lb draw.

[@goarmy897]

spine does not equal arrow weight. spine is how flexible the arrow shaft is.

[@trxe420]

Honestly, the biggest thing is using the right spine for the FOC imo and properly tuning your bow, your nocks and your broadheads.

[@justinschmidt2901]

Great last name bud

[@DDHONLINE]

Salute, Justin!

[@cjr4497]

I know he probably didn't mean to, but he made it sound like it was okay to shoot a 2-in expandable with only 25-ft lb of energy. That is a recipe for disaster. Anyone shooting a low poundage and low k.e. should be shooting a cut on contact fixed and that is a fact. I shoot 450gr arrow at 280 ft per second with 1.75 in expandables. I don't get anywhere near the penetration that I used to get with my good old muzzies. I am tired of not getting past throughs. I'm dropping down to a 1.5-in sevr this fall. If I don't start getting full pass throughs I'm going back to fixed.

[@DDHONLINE]

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear on that. Those should be reserved for higher poundages. DS

[@cdp50359]

FMJ's = trash

[@Myeviltwin69]

Shot placement is more critical than fps.

[@dougkraemer8327]

Well im at about 5.3gr/in and 334fps with a 32" 70lb draw. Guess I can't kill anything...

[@DDHONLINE]

Hi Doug - this was prefaced in the video. You're obviously at the top end of bow performance. Thanks for watching and have a happy 4th!

[@dougkraemer8327]

@@DDHONLINE this whole heavy slow thing blows my mind. A guy who goes by the name of "ranch fairy"....enough said....it's just like the 9mm vs. .45acp debate. Or 5.56 vs. .308........light and fast vs. Heavy and slow.....ill take the light and fast every day to make up for my lack of judging distance skills....cause i dont use a 1 pin slider in one hand and a rangefinder in the other. 0-30 with one pin and im happy!

[@DDHONLINE]

@@dougkraemer8327 very good points, Doug. Thanks for adding these.

[@alexlaskowski3650]

@@dougkraemer8327 good luck when you don't get a perfect broadside

[@dougkraemer8327]

@@alexlaskowski3650 ...then don't shoot?

[@rileymcghee346]

how do you tell what the kenetic energy is because i shoot 70lb of 440 grain arrows

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

You need to know your speed. Formula for me is 1/2mv^2.

[@HuntGuy101]

EXPANDABLES SUCK